RBD5 Succession Game - French Musketeer Artillery Variant

Artillery. BOOM? I've not been using that element effectively at all.
So what to do when I'm lousy at something? Force myself to use it
I've been wanting to do this since seeing how some other folks were using
artillery to great effect in a succsion game, but Sirian's "Infantry" game
prompted some of the specifics of the 'extra rules' here. (The game play is
envisioned as quite different, I just wanted to have an artillery focus game
where Musketeers play a key role)

Basic premise: No city may be taken without the direct support of artillery.

Civilization? What is needed for the catapult? Alphabet and Masonry to reach
Mathematics. Who starts with those? Commercial industrious. Ah, the French.
Some would find it appropriate that the French play a game in which they are
scared for their infantry to fight without first have their foes softened up,
but I leave such judgements to the reader. The workers extra speed will help
make roads, which are required to move artillery in rough terrain.

French? Well there's a UU I've never used, even in my two French games! This
must be corrected too. Simple: for Cannons and later, a Musketeer is required
to operate and coordinate fire! Plus what better companion for these vulnerable
units than these Musketeers. While we're at it, might as well let Paratroopers
(the other worthless unit) have a special role.

Game parameters: Large Map, Continents with large land mass, 3 billion, warm, arid.
Leader: Not Joan this time but D'Artagnan (one of the musketeers, along with Athos,
Porthos and Aramis) to set the tone. He names the first three cities after his friends :P
Civ: French, # of opponents: only 6, (not max 11, to be sure to get to muskets
before all the fighting was done). Barbarians are restless. Opponents were chosen
to have UU of same era or same strength: Japan, Rome, Russia, India, Greece, and Persia.
Difficulty: Monarch (due to the added self-restrictions)
Victory conditions: Diplomacy, Cultural, Conquest. (No space or domination)

Turns: 40-30-25-20-15 then 10 for each turn. #players: 5 would be good, +/- ok.
(These long turns in first round due to size of map, and the first turn in
particular to found 3 musketeer cities. We may need to adjust those.)

Normal rules:
- No reload
- No automation of workers
- 24hrs to post "Got it" or "Pass", and 48 hrs to post new zipped save file
- Use 'Save', not 'Autosave' to recover from crash until Autosave bug is fixed

*** Extra rules ***
- No city may be attacked on any round until artillery support has fired on the
town (catapult, cannon, artillery, radar artillery, cruise missile or any bombardment)
- The only exception is that Paratroopers do not require artillery support.
- Paratroopers are suggested to be made and used, and should pillage key supply
lines and special resources as a key part of their mission.
- Cities need artillery garrisons. For a captured city, one artillery unit must
remain as garrison. For a built city, an artillery unit should be produced or
imported (AFTER that city builds/gets an infantry defender)
- For cannon, artillery, radar art, a Musketman is required in the same square
to operate the equipment. (This goes for city garrison as well)
- Note that a Marine attacking a city after naval bombardment is another
option opened up nicely ;P

A side effect of these rules is that we won't get to crush the AI in massive
blitzreigs due to the artillery movement speed (further making paratrooper
deployment behind enemy lines more useful).

ROSTER (in order:)
Charis
Jaffa
Sirian (unless he's got too many irons in the fire already ;p)
Ionpure
Zed
Cy (?? pencil'd in, let me know)
(If any slots open up or if some listed as tentative can't make it, I'll post the opening)

So Jaffa, you're up. I had to guess on right length of 2nd turn,
so close it out after 25 or 30 turns as seems appropriate to you.

Charis
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/60822 - Realms Beyond Diablo

PS I think the patch changed the paratrooper range to 6, up from 4. Nice?

PPS I wonder if Helicopters can carry artillery? (Airlift)

RBD5 Succession Game - French Musketeer Artillery, Round 1, Turn 1

4000 BC (1) - We start on a river, with a goody hut and two cattle nearby. Perfect! :goodjob:
The worker hit the hut for maps (ew). We see moving one spot puts us on a nice
defensive hill, on the coast, and in range of wheat, fish and game too (wow!)
Poor hut, but great site.

3950 BC (2) - The French Musketeer civilization starts with the founding of
Athos. With a site like this we can crank out lots of settler units (or gambit
and go for Pyramids.) Have to irrigate the Plains next to the city to bring water
to irrigate the wheat.

3750 BC (6) - A portly but adventurous man, Jacques Pierre, is trained as a Warrior
and sent out to explore.

3550 BC (10) - His brother, Jean Paul, also decides to become an exploring warrior.
Mathematics is being investigated in the meantime. Jacques and Jean wish to never
face a full strength opponent!

3350 BC (14) - Jacques sees a goody hut and game to the north, and another river.
3250 BC (16) - A tribe at the hut teaches us pottery.

3150 BC (18) - Settler pops out, heads to a narrow land bridge to east. (An ideal
location for a Port city named Porthos which will allow us North-South passage there)

3000 BC (21) - Angry jute tribes disturbed (eep) from one hut and from another,
Ceremonial Burial. Next turn (2950), fortunately, the barbarians turn Jean Paul into
an elite fighting machine. News of this spurs their brother, Pierre Olivier,
to take up warrior training. So in 2950, Porthos is founded.

2750 BC (25) - Several quiet turns of exploring and growing. Considered a temple start
at Athos, but wanted to get one more Settler out first to finish the Three Musketeer
theme. A Temple will let Athos grow nicely to a more profitable size for settler pumping
(maybe even reaching size 6 first, where it can crank= them out almost continuously).
An alternative, a bit of a gambit would be try for quick Pyramids.

Jean Paul has found what may be a 'choke point' of sorts to the SW. East of him is
either the bridge to the other half of the continent, or the end of our 'island'
(too early to tell yet, it might have another bridge just above it).
Jacques is heading North to investigate a river and game area as a potential future
city. Looking at the mini-map, with seven civilizations total, we're likely many many
turns and 1.5 to 2 screens away from contact with our first neighbor. Future leaders
will have to decide how much land we want to grab, and settle in, or to try for a
more consolidated start (perhaps going for a wonder asap).

(Note to self: this is 25 turn mark, could stop here, but with this large and sparse a
map, I'm going to press on to found our third city)

2710, 2670, 2630, 2590, 2550 BC (30) - 25 gold from hut (bah)
2470 BC (32) - Hut to river above gives a skilled warrior (well, not SO skilled)
2430 BC (33) - First moving barbarian attacks the elite Jean Paul (bad choice).
2390 BC (34) - Hmmm... two decent choices seen for our next city Aramis, one
on the coast with cattle, the other on hilly rivers. Other squares near cattle
are poor, so lets get good production in river hill zone.

2350 BC (35) - Temple chosen next for Porthos to let it expand boundaries quickly.
When it reaches 38 or 39 shields needed, might want to whip just once.
2310, 2270 BC (37) - Ah furs sighted over the hill. In fact, three! We can
ensnare all 3 in our boundaries, or 2 and some game and forest. I pick the latter.

2190 BC (39) - Aramis founded on a hill with TWO rivers on its square, game and 2 fur
near. A temple is started there - may want to whip when it needs 39 to finish (?)

2150 BC (40) - Last turn. Barbarian camp spotted.

Lots of options available for the next leader, and a lot of exploration to do.
Keep in mind as soon as Mathematics is researched, the variant rules require
us to build or get a catapult in each city as soon as possible (queue'ing is ok
rather than having to switch production unwisely).

I leave the city founding plan to more capable hands, but wish luck to Jaffa and those following :goodjob:

Charis

Ah, reusing the RBD1/2 players? Ok, but I may have to skip my first turn or 2 until the Mother Russia game winds up. I'm already going in Sirian's Infantry game, as well as RBD4, so I may be a bit overcommitted right now, will let you know. Keep me in tentatively, but be aware I may have to bow out.

0) 2150BC Science rate turned down a notch to save 2 gold! Yippee!

1) 2110BC Athos size 3. Our brave explorers find ... nothing. With the discovery of mathematics, our military strategists realise the potential defensive abilities of devices throwing large rocks onto the heads of attackers, and demand these be constructed in all French cities. Research into writing begins.

2) 2070BC Our lone worker completes the road from Athos to Porthos, starts on road to Aramis via hill picked for next city. Explorer finds rich grasslands with cattle to north. 25 gold from barbarian camp. Endless jungles to east. Athos finishes temple, starts catapult.

4) 1990BC Find the edge of the purple culture to north (India, presumably).

5) 1950BC Athos finishes catapult, starts on a settler.

6) 1910BC Contact with Indians. Indians have bronze working and warrior code. Hmmm. Buy an Indian worker for 25 gold.

7) 1870BC Exploring warrior reaches the other side of endless jungles. Gems spotted in mountains. Our warrior spends too long in Indian territory and they become annoyed. Ooops :P

9) 1790BC Rich wheatfields on far side of endless jungle. Athos finishes settler, starts Pyramids.

12) 1700BC Paris founded.

13) 1675BC Porthos completes temple, starts catapult.

17) 1575BC Goody hut produces three barbarian warriors! Ack! 25 gold from barbarian camp. Regular warrior becomes elite defending against the three barbarians.

19) 1525BC Institute 10% luxury tax to deal with unrest in Athos (ooops). Whip temple in Aramis -- need to get furs on line. Porthos finishes its catapult.

21) 1475BC Worthless map from goody hut. Paris gets its catapult.

22) 1450BC Porthos produces a warrior to go to Athos, starts on worker.

23) 1425BC Finish writing, start mysticism (to have Oracle available if we miss Pyramids). Establish embassy in Delhi.

Only 25 turns since I need to get to bed :)

We've done lots of exploring. Now need to go and settle some.

Be careful with Athos - it's on the edge of unrest.

:beer:

Researched Mysticism, Bronze Working, Iron Working. Set up the Wheel for next project.

On my first turn, the elite warrior on the plains in the south was attacked and slaughtered by a barbarian horseman, doing no damage in return. There went half my long range scouting force.

Set new labor group from Porthos to chopping down forests.

Increased food output at Athos without lowering shields.

Mined grassland with worker near Aramis, then began a road to the de Winter estate in the hills. Yes yes, I know she's an awful deceitful woman, but I will try to woo her into supporting the French crown.

Paris decides "screw work, let's eat!" and increases food output. There's a lot of, erm, business going on there now and we expect the population to swell quickly.

Sent the settler from Porthos (their, uh, travois construction effort aided by chopping down the forest, us not having wheels yet, we can't exactly build wagons) eastward, into the forest, to search for Robin Hood and His Merry Men. (Oops! :eek: Wrong story!)

Athos swells in size, and swells some more. The whole city is busy busy busy building huge stone pyramids.

Settler from Porthos persuades Cardinal Richelieu to support the French crown, and not to be left out, Lady de Winter then throws her, uh, corset into the ring as well. A celebration is held at the planned site of the great iron mine to be built in the north, wherein the Musketeers (why they are called that, with their stone axes, is not yet known) gather and chant "One for All!"

The complete lack of goody huts in the south is disconcerting, but we have not made contact with anybody new yet.

Pyramids completed, and Milady de Winter demands a huge bronze statue be built to commerorate her beauty, and not wanting to get onto her bad side, the Musketeers comply. A new great project is underway in Athos.

Uh... there are barbarians coming up from the south. We had to roll out our Royal Catapults from Athos to prevent them from reaching the farmlands, and also send out our warriors to finish off the battered remnants and temporarily increase luxuries as a result. This incursion was easily repelled, but future problems of this nature are sure to plague the next leader, as I took no action to remove the threat. Beware.

Milady de Winter is bold and brassy, mean and sassy, and the Musketeers fear that unless she is given special attention on a continuous basis, that she may betray us to the Indians. Consider yourself warned!

Did not use up movement for the new settler from Aramis, so that the next leader may decide best what to do with them.


- Sirian

Sorry .... I don't have any free minute until saturday afternoon :( ... please decide if you want to skip me or if you want to wait until than :confused:

Ionpure, no problem. The rules for this game are to keep the ball rolling as much as possible, so we'll bump it along to Zed. Since it's first round, we'll try to switch you and he in the order. (If Zed can't take, Cy, hop right in)

We look to be in good shape. Colossus is a good bet to finish. Being commercial that might kick off a Golden Age -- if so that city can go straight for next wonder (Great Lib or Lighthouse). A little early, but we'll take it if it comes. Hopefully we can hem the Indians in and avoid trading folks communication with them. (Keep them in the dark principle ;p) The settler yet to move might help plug that gap, or you may have a better use.

Good luck,
Charis

According to Civ Fanatics info page, Colossus is Expansionist & Religious, so no worries there. Even if it were commerical, we need to build both a Industious and a Commercial wonder in order to kick off a Golden Age.

Check out this page (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3infocenter.shtml#wonders) for more info...

I have already booked RBD4 for tonight, but I could potentially play tomorrow. Cy, please go ahead of me for this round.

Alrighty... Cy, if you're around, gogogo :P

Expansionist??? A wonder that sits still and produces one
extra commerce on most squares?? Hmmm.... ok, a later
GA is better. BTW, we *have* build and industrious wonder
already, the Pyramids, so a Commercial one could trigger.

:D
Charis

erm, got it. gonna get me a giant coke and try to read the backstory and get in the swing of things.

i had a really bad day personally, but i'll try to get it going.

really.

sigh.

--cy

Hey all. Just couldn’t get interested last night, but I have today off, so here is the next installment.

Overlooked by the scribes of previous rulers was the assimilation by glorious France of the peculiar tribe of the snail. In the year 750, their leader decided that France needed his own particular brand of leadership, and, in a bloodless but painful coup (involving lots of hot garlic butter), assumed the seat of power, and declared himself Despot Cy_Escargot petit-gris.

Upon looking at the map, he briefly considered slithering off into the night with his tail in his shell. Sacre bleu! We have no military! Why has India not already put us to the sword? I sent an emissary to chat with Ghandi and pay my respects. Snicker. No wonder they have not put us to the sword—they do not know what a sword IS! What a backwards folk. I put my tail back out of my shell, and instructed my advisors as to the future of our people.

(1) I sent a settlement party north to found a new city to help create a border against Indian ignorance.
(2) I sent a war party south to seek out the root of the barbarian insurrection and to show them the awesome power of the mighty French catapult.
(3) While my advisors counseled building up our military before India overwhelmed us, I chose a different, less sane course of action. While I would build a few more defensive units (and more glorious catapults, of course!), and see to the establishment of barracks in crucial spots, I would rely more on keeping India backwards than in a military buildup, and attempt to use this time to build infrastructure and establish our southern border.

690. Barbarian horsemen from the south attack our war party. The power of the French catapult destroys them.

650. An Indian warrior is found wandering to our south. Tabernac! They are out!

630. Our scientists perfect the wheel and advise us to seek out horses. Despite preferring to produce slime and crawl on my belly, I follow their advice and instruct the people to look for horses. They are found running wild through the very streets of Paris itself! Quelle bizarre! There are also reports of herds of wild horses near where our new city is due to be founded. In the south, yet more barbarians assault our war party. This time, the Indian warrior is in sight range when our glorious catapult assures victory. He is so astounded by our science that he freezes to the spot, never to move again (?). I start a settler south with a warrior to found a southern gateway city. A people known as the Greeks are rumored to have completed something known as an Oracle. Bah! Our Pyramids dwarf such undertakings. Besides, if the Greeks need a database to keep up with a pitiful ancient age civ, their brains will explode in the modern age.

610. The port city of Orleans is founded in the north. And there was much rejoicing 8-).

590. The Irresponsible Indians start construction of the Colossus. What a silly people. We will be done long before them. Still, it would be wise to remember that they will have shields saved up…

550. Contact with the Romans! Our southern explorer has finally found another great people! At an absurd distance, too. At this point Cy_Escargot petit-gris has a crisis of confidence and strategy. He slimed up the floors, walls, and yes, even the ceiling of the great palace with his, erm, “pacing.” The Romans have more techs than us, but not math. They also have communications with all but one of the remaining civs. What to do? I do not want to tech trade with the AI. But I also don’t want to give them communications with the Indians. Once India can trade with them, our tech lead over them will be gone, and they will roll up our undefended nation and turn us into Gibelotte. Yet the only way to avoid both is to do nothing with the contact, and the entire point of sending a warrior off on a 50 turn exploration is to USE the contact to our advantage somehow. After much sliming, I decide to keep India in the dark a few more turns and to blow our current (I was about to say “temporary”, but that is a judgment based on Emp diff not Monarch diff) one-tech advance over the Romans to meet some people and make some deals. I won’t detail each trade or the number of times around the circle it took, but, in the aftermath of brokerage turn from hell, our net loss is math, our net gain is contact with Rome (duh), Japan, Greece, and Russia; warrior code, mysticism, map making, and philosophy; and a gain in gold (which was good as I am running a deficit to get to Literature).

530. Bring Ivory on line. And there was much rejoicing 8-).

510. Colossus completed, kicking off a golden age. Production shifted to Lighthouse as a placeholder for Great Library.

490-450. Somewhere in here I finally tracked down the barb settlement, and, after a strong attack by our mighty catapult, razed it. End notes to follow.

I quit after 15 turns because it “felt” right. I had enough time to get some things done, but was about to have to make some big decisions that would hve a large impact on our civ. I wanted new blood to place the next two cities and to allocate precious production during our early GA.

Notes: Literature comes in next turn. Athos can be either switched over to the Library wonder, or can just make up all the improvements that have come in since it went into wonder generation. India is still isolated, and still does not have ironworking. When they get that, we’re going to have to bulk up our military at once or get mauled. All the other civs I have contact with have map making, so expect to see galleys sniffing around real soon. If they head north up our coast, don’t forget to sell communication with India to them all and communication to them with India for as much as we can get before they meet. The settler should reach my choice for our southernmost city in 1 turn. It is a harbor on a hill on fresh water on a choke point, but the land is poor and it is a pretty good ways south. I like the city location, and it will keep the barbs off our rears, but if I had a “do-over” I’d have used this settler up north and one of the ones about to come online down here. To recall him now would cost longer in movement than to produce a new settler, though. C’est la vie. It will need two cities to link up well with our northern cities, one west of Athos and one south down the peninsula, but that is probably not a priority right now. I have a couple of units on the way to 2 possible city spots to help keep this area in our “vision” and not allow any more barb villages to spawn. We need to be able to swing our entire military force east to hold off India without southern distractions. There are two settlers coming online. Paris will produce in 1 turn and Aramis in 7. India is starting to sniff around with settler pairs—we need to control our north asap. There are conspicuous voids east of Orleans and east of All For One. It would also be just like the AI to plop one down in the hole between Milady and Orleans, but if they do that they’ll lose it to culture eventually. Until then, it would be a real pita, though, giving them a jump-off point to Aramis and requiring us to staff Aramis as a “border” city and increase our miltary drain by 1/3. Japan is revealed to be on our continent, but fortunately is still a ways away. Porthos is about to produce a catapult which needs to go to Athos to replace the one sent south with our war party, as that one will stay south with the new city and not return “home”. Oh, and a surmise: since it took India this long to start looking to expand into our territory, I expect they have a considerable amount of land back there…

Good luck to the next leader, you have some work to do 8-).

--Cy

Cy, well done, and glad it was while you were fresh (sorry to hear yesterday was a bummer day)

*** Upload the save file *** :)

Sounds like a good deal with the Romans (minor nit: we already had Mysticism). Recent games have been showing the major advantage of working to keep your isolated neighbor 'in the dark', and definitely a good strat for this game.

So the Colossus did kick off a Golden Age? (Now I'm confused! Could the manual be wrong? Is the Colossus in fact commercial in nature? Can any mod-maker lurkers check this?! :P)

Thanks too for cutting the turn length to what felt right. With each new size/land type those first round turns are a guess.

Glad to see the catapults are wreaking destruction on our foes. In another game I'm using musket-longbow-cat*4 and two man-o-war to siege a city rather than what I would normally send: two musketet and five knights. I was surprised how well it worked. It took four turns to capture, but with no losses, and the city pre-shrunk a bit.

As far as the 'border' gap... where the Indians could sneak in and settle... could that be fixed with a temple rush or if the area is small, occupying it with warriors? (random thought)

Zed -- if you can slip a turn in tonight, you're up. If not til Sat afternoon, then Ionpure would be back. Either way, post "got it" or "bump" :)

Good job (well, judging from the report anyway)
Charis

It's very possible that the Colossus is Commercial and the Lighthouse is Expansionist, rather than vice versa, as indicated. Minor documentation bugs happen all the time, and it makes more sense that way...

Err... Cy...

Where's the save game file? :crazyeyes

Ok, we'll try it again...

Well, the last one bombed, here is the third try....

OK, another bomb.

bloody board.

OK ... I am back :) ... will take the turn after Zed :yeah:

Ok, then got it.

Sorry, not an in-character post this time...

430 BC (1): Finished researching Literacy, start Code of Laws. Science reduced to 70%, still done in 5 turns. Milady de Winter needs a Courthouse to remind her of the consequences of defying French Law! Greeks start building Great Library. Athos switches to Great Library, and should beat the Greeks; they ought not to have any shields saved up as they recently built the Oracle. Paris builds settler, starts another.

410 BC (2): Porthos builds catapult for Athos, starts another. Bastogne founded at our southern border; there is an Indian warrior exploring nearby, and a barbarian horseman to our south! Bastogne starts building a temple to seal our border.

390 BC (3): Our warrior fights off the barbarian horseman and retreats to Bastille to heal up. Our 2nd warrior at Bastogne moves out to go exploring. Since the Greeks already have Literature, sold it to the Romans for gold, gold per turn, and Code of Laws. Code of Laws and Literature sold to Japan for gold, gold/turn, Horseback Riding, and their World Map. While it is certainly desirable to keep the backwards Indians out of the loop as much as possible, it seems worthwhile to get their world map for trade with the other civs... we sell them Philosphy and Mysticism (which they can't do anything with) for their map and a pile of gold, plus gold per turn. India doesn't really seem to have much land in their territory, and it's all settled already...

370 BC (4): Various troops move around... We start researching Construction, which will be done in 15 turns.

350 BC (5): Porthos completes catapult, starts worker. Milady de Winter whips a temple!

330 BC (6): Milady de Winter completes temple, starts courthouse. Paris completes settler, starts another. Ville de Balaines founded east of Orleans.

310 - 270 BC: We trade maps with the world (except India); otherwise, nothing much happens. Unfortunately we come out on the losing end of the gold exchange, but it's nothing we can't afford.

250 BC (10): One for All founded east of All for One.


We have a settler about to arrive at city site west of Athos, and Paris is about to produce another settler. Most everyone other than the Indians are building the Great Library. The latter still seem to be isolated in their little peninsula and anything they might settle now won't be close enough to their capital to avoid being culture-flipped. For the moment our military is on par with theirs, although it's certainly worse than that of the most of the rest of the world.

There may be a couple temples ready to be whipped -- the last couple turns I had to rush a bit & wasn't paying attention to every city.

got it :) ... quite late here ... playing tomorrow morning

Looks like good turns, guys. The territory, the earth... it looks pretty nasty. Tons of mountains and jungles. It will take so long to move the artillery the distances involved that our musketeers might not see real action until railroads ;p

We'll want to see the India border sealed before long, glad to see a temple there -- a good whipping candidate. One choice for future leaders will be to enforce our territorial rights -- do we tell India "get out" if they come across our border with a settler. Now if it were Persia that would mean instant war, but I'm thinking Gandhi would back off. They can still sail across i guess, but no need to let them waltz down whereever they like. (With our GA going on I'm not particularly scared if that does end up provoking them.) So I'm hoping a settler push is coming as well, to stake as much territory as we can. With ships coming soon wouldn't want to see our eastern island see one russian and one greek city, for example. That jungle to the south... doesn't seem like a great area to rush too now, but there might be some good resources there. Any iron yet? If not (didnt see any connect) we might want to found on the shore-river spot right next to the iron and get that online soon. We have no offense whatsoever if we do end up fighting India soon. Conversely don't let them get iron under any circumstance :P

It's nice not to start next to Zulus or Persians for once. Don't worry though, we'll have our share of fighting later.

Good luck Ionpure,
Charis

(PS Minor point - could push luxury one to avoid the entertainer in our wonder city)

Bleh .... forum was down all day :(

Very late here ... I still would play, but that girl next to me says "NO", and I don't want to risk any real life bombardments :o

Have to skip my first turn since I am out of town for my job the next two days :(

Hope things work out better in the next round ...

Good luck to you :)

Got it. Just started turn, but wife wants to watch a movie. Will finish this eve and post ;0

Charis

Jean Paul Charis, gunny seargeant who rose to a top rank, is asked to serve
an interim term as despotic leaderJ. Whip in hand, he takes the reins, as
France is in the middle of a Golden Age...

250 BC (0) - JP surveys the realm and finds things . 11 cities, borders forming
to the north, and lots and lots of sprawling jungle to the south. India,
their nearest neighbor, has so far been peaceful and slightly backward.
Athos, he notes, is working on the Great Library, and likely to get it in
about 11 turns (8 after some micromanagement!). Luxuries and science are both
high, but still a surplus. Aramis, with no barracks, is switched from Spearman
to Settler. All-for-one is whipped for its Temple. Ville de Balaines set to
Warrior instead of Spearman (crowd control more than defense, with no rax)
Likewise One-For-All. Richelieu is whipped for a harbor. He's got a worker
and settler to get cracking on!

230 BC (1) - A boat from Porthos sets to explore the surrounding shallow lands.
Paris settler heads for the whale spot, and the Aramis settler to the Hills
river square on the coast next to the iron. Orleans has a temple whipped.
India is strolling through our territory up north, with spearman/settler
pair. I intend to let them go as they can as long as their "nearest square"
in their territory is back on their land, not 'forward' -- this should
result in a half dozen wasted turns for them ;P (or if they declare war,
those units that far forward are toast.) Still, if they're that into
settler mode, they might land somewhere we don't like.

210 BC (2) - Lyons founded on the coast where previous leader sent settler.
This as city#12 triggers the "people want the forbidden palace" message.

190 BC (3) - Much micromanaging, with good results. Centralized Paris sends
its warrior and catapult south, to help quicken our settling/border
management down there.

170 BC (4) - A second Indian settler/spearman pair enter our territory.
Either us or them is due for a surprise in a few more turns.
Jean Paul notices we have **no** barracks in all the land. He wrings
his hands in disbelief. Surely we must have One making for All?!
"No, no, whip me!" cries All For One. With temple already in hand, and
size 3, he offers himself to be whipped. Far South of Bastogne, our
intrepid explorer finds somewhat of an abundance of dies. (More settlers!)
"Bane of Bombay" is founded... as it stares fiercely across the shallow
sea at its sister city. Winter lady not only whips a courthouse, but she
rather enjoys it! (She'll start on Barracks next, as our front line of defense)

150 BC (5) - All For One takes its whipping for the Barracks.

130 BC (6) - Orleans expands borders as the temple kicks in! This "seals"
are Northern border, and makes it good timing to ask/tell the Indians
to "get out!" Do they?? Phew, yes. Back to Madras they go.

110 BC (7) - Construction is learned and currency started. That will bring
us to the Middle ages, and leaves our next governor to pick Monarchy or
Republic (or to stay Despotic a little while longer to whip temples in all
our new towns and get them from the library)

"Sea currents" to the east of our eastern penninsula, and coast visible
within reach. Rheims is founded next to the iron.

90 BC (8) - Tadaa... Great Library is finished, JUST as our Golden Age
finishes. Good timing. Sucre bleau! (sp?) An Indian boat is seen approaching
Bane of Bombay. Our troops in the area try to block their landing! A
settler is close, and hopes to found a city to hook up Bane with Bastogne.
Greeks and Russians start Great Wall, and Rome the Great Lighthouse.
Our dyes explorer runs into a barbarian horsemen, which beats the other
way around. We engage and... win!

Ugh! Our post-GA production rates look torpid!

70 BC (9) - Bastogne is whipped for a temple. Tours is founded on the
eastern Penninsula. Our shore troops shift down to try to further cut
the ship off. Alas, there's ONE spot left can't get to, if he chooses
to land there.

50 BC (10) - The Indians dart down south to avoid the blockade. Perfect!
Stay OUT of our territory, do you hear?? Phew! Our settler is now in
a good spot to settle or the next leader can move as he likes.

Diplomacy status (pretty much neglected during the turn...)
Greeks - tech parity, more cash
Japan - behind, cautious. One nation is yet to be discovered.
Russia, Rome - parity, polite and cautious

The reign of Jean Paul Charis will be seen as the workings of an
imbecile, or something approaching genius, for he did not go middle-of-
the-road. It was pure expansion, leaving cities naked, and using warriors
and workers as sandbags to fend ships away :P If we're attacked soon, he
will be shown to be an imbecile, but if not, we might have salvaged uncontested
growth up to Bastogne. Yet even here diligence is called for!! We must
shore up gaps, founding cities on the right side of the Bastogne passage
(where, now in fog, there may even be barbarians living!) We must settle
the southern part of the eastern penninsula, AND there is seen to be a nice
island to our east which has horses, whales, and wheat. A stake MUST be
claimed, and claimed fast. Jean Paul has hoped that the mere presence
of the mighty artillery units would strike stark fear into the hearts
of the Indians, and has sapped their resolve. After this last 'settle'
phase, whole hog efforts must be made with military, or our gains will
be for naught. (Some nervous folks would take this step first ;p)

There are moves left for the settler and his warrior and catapult friends.
My plan was to keep warriors on coast where they are and continue sandbag,
and move cat, settler, warrior, each one square south, and found the new
city there (one down from where he is now). Likely keep the shoreline
defense in place until one more settler gets down there and "seals" the
area. Otherwise that ship might just return full ;p Sirian, feel
free to look at and analyze the situation!

Roster as it stands at this start of round 2... (10 turns each)
Charis
Jaffa
Sirian
Ionpure (if needed let us know if you need shifting from this slot)
Cy
Zed

Good luck, more fun turns ahead! (Jaffa is up) :goodjob:
Charis

Below is a picture of the shoreline, at 90BC. The warriors were doing there thing building roads, and I had the warrior and cat in town and one square off shore, ready to react. Next turn the ship went south and everyone shifted a square down. I was glad to see that rather than take the one square they could have landed on in 70, they turned South. Smart for them actually, whatever city they found north of Bastogne will with certainty fall to French Artillery and Musketmen!

Analysis: the situation will be placed into Jaffa's capable hands. And thank goodness, because I spent too much time writing up report for RBD3, and need some zzzzzzzzzzzz's.

Nitey nite. :sleep:

The night after the mysterious disappearance of beloved leader Charis, J'fa the Insomniac wandered into the French court in Athos. "Monkey," he muttered, obscurely, "Monkey!" Politely, the French courtiers wined and dined him, and accidentally granted him absolute power over the French nation.

0) 50BC Micromanagement. Retrain entertainer in New Orleans as a tax collector. Take the one citizen in Bastogne and set him to doing some useful work in the fields, instead of his so-called entertainment act (!) The citizen of Rheims is taken off the grassland-with-shield square it shares with Lyons (the shield is just being wasted, anyway) so Lyons can use it. No iron supply has been connected yet? Trade ivory for Indian spices. Trade furs for 120 Indian gold, their pathetic world map, and 2 gold/turn.

Establish embassies. Kyoto is building a courthouse (why?), Rome building worker, Athens building colosseum. Moscow is 15 turns from Great Wall.

Switch Athos, the cultural center of the world :) , to Great Lighthouse (don't see any reason to let the Romans have it). Might get Art of War instead, anyway.

Trade RoP to Japan for their entire treasury (13 gold) and world map. Rome gives 12 gold. Greeks and Russians won't pay.

Indian settler heads SW into fog. Romans start building Great Wall.

1) 30BC Marseilles founded as per plan of beloved leader Charis. Why do we have governor on by default? The Russians have a city on the island with the horses, our galley returns towards Richelieu to pick up forthcoming settler. Whip barracks in Paris.

2) 10BC Start training vet spearman at new barracks in Paris and Milady de Winter. Greeks finish Great Wall in Sparta.

4) 30AD Our warrior exploring south is ambushed and killed by barbarian horsemen.

5) 50AD Iron is connected to our road network. Indian settlers (three teams) encroaching on our territory up by Milady, again.

6) 70AD Whip temple in Lyons. A fourth Indian settler team sneaks into our territory.

7) 90AD Japanese request world map trade. I think not.

8) 110AD We learn about currency, and enter a new era! Swordsman created in Paris.

9) 130AD We request the Indians leave our territory. Fortunately, they fear our catapults (*cough*swordsman*cough*) and do so :) La Bastille penal colony founded on the island.

10) 150AD The French courtiers, realising their terrible mistake, arrange for J'fa to be accidentally locked up in the new penal colony while on an official state visit. "Vive La Republic!" they shout, a little prematurely.

Notes: Indians have not yet contacted the rest of the world. They will eventually. We should try and arrange to sell communications before they do so :) They only seem to have one galley, and it's busy transporting settlers.

Two settlers are heading to likely city sites east of Marseilles, with warriors to meet them.

Consider sending a settler south to grab dyes in the jungle.

You can whip at 40 shields remaining, don't have to wait for 39 :)

And we still need *lots* more military...

Another excellent job, Jaffa :goodjob:

Despite your insomnia you caught several things to change on
turn 0. I knew the iron wasn't connected, and hoped it (and cough swordsmen cough) would be connected soon. It doesn't occur to sell RoP to distant fools yet, good reminder. It looks like one more quiet turn would work very well for us consolidating and switching gears.

Wow Sirian, no kidding on the rbd3 write up! I saw it just as I was going to bed around 2 and didn't have time to read it, so I've got a fresh cup of coffee and will look for a donut to work through it. I may finish by lunch! :crazyeyes:

Charis

The Reign of Siris Louis began with a peaceful restructuring of some projects. Then in the first year of his reign, a settler group to which he had issued orders to found a city near Athos continued moving ON THEIR OWN and poor Louis went simply mad. Mad, I say. In a fit of rage, he decreed that these disobedient, upstart rogues of a band of people should be henceforth sent south into the most barren desert to live. None should so defy the emperor of France and not suffer. So let it be known. The city would indeed be founded where Louis ordered, but after his passing, they did deign to name it in his, uh, "honor", that all should know of his enraged proclamation.

Having been rendered mad, he disbanded all research efforts and demanded that everything (well, except that needed to pay for his favorite luxury goods) be collected in his treasury. He is said to have spent hours at a time just crawling through large piles of gold in the treasury room, cackling gleefully. He was so enamored with the idea of hard currency that he sold the concept to the rest of the world for everything they could afford. Fortunately for France, the scholars at the Great Library soon learned the secrets of Monotheism, from distant Russian and Greek lands, and are expected to remain privy to the breakthroughs of other nations for the being, so Mad King Louis and his coin baths did not quite spell the complete ruination of France, though it sure did entertain the nobles.

Siris Louis (that's pronounced Loo-Ee, for any barbarians in the audience) continued with a frothing reign, whipping courthouses out all across the land, and sending forth a settlement group "in search of tender white filets". Said group located a rich pod of cod off the island coast southwest of La Bastille, and so plunked down there near a native village, which sadly turned out to be abondoned.

All the while Louis and his line were on the throne, Milady de Winter did pretty much as she darn well pleased, and what pleased her most was having lots of strong, handsome young French warriors under her spell. She now has nearly as much army on call as half the rest of France. (Don't piss her off, Okay?)

Cardinal Richelieu, ever mindful to work his machinations behind the scenes, ordered Paris to outfit a number of work parties with the intent of bringing irrigation to the parched lands of the priest's home city (some forests will have to be cut down) and now backed by Monotheism and his devotion to the One Deity, Richelieu set his plan into motion. He also managed to initiate the Royal French Mounted Regiment, which has begun and should continue to train mobile warriors out of the Paris region, for while Milady de Winter assured all of France that she and she alone will protect us all from the Indian threat, Richelieu, being wise in the ways of naval affairs (as befits his home region) is quietly preparing France for the apparently overlooked threat of the Indians invading from the bay, right past our stronghold in the west, to the heart of our land. Only a strong contingent of mounted troops could have the mobility to respond to this sort of threat on so wide a front as spans our western coastlines.

Louis the Mad, so engrossed with his beloved golden coinage, did foolishly sell technologies to India for more coin. His advisors struggled valiantly to dissuade him, but one of their heads on a pike at the palace gate dissuaded THEM from any more dissuading. It is said that Louis would have sold them the entire Great Library, but they ran out of coin to pay, and Louis gives nothing away for free. Nothing! (The nobles were even forced to pay for the "privelege" of the Royal Fartings whenever Louis was a guest at dinner in their mansions. A Four-Crowns Gassing :eek: could be grist for the gossip mill for an entire season).

When it was suggested to Louis that France might PAY its citizens rather than whip them to labors, the poor scholar so suggesting was gutted and stuffed with gold coins and mounted over the fireplace in the Emperor's Own Personal Treasury (aka, the treasury of France). Science became an out-of-favor profession, and even the Librarians kept a low profile, lest the Mad One decide the Great Library was too costly to maintain and shut it down. The army certainly also postponed their planned request for military pay. Postponed, locked away, and forgot all about it. For everyone knows that all of France lives to enrich the royal treasury! Right? :rolleyes:

Well that's about it. Finally, the Mad One and his line passed away, (too greedy, in the end, to trust wives not to spend too much of the Personal Treasure on frills). Some have said that, ironically, the Mad One's greed may have been to the good of France in some regards. The Great Library kept us up to date on knowledge while we conserved our own funds. What use such a grand wonder of information if we ignore it to do our own research? Wasn't the reason we built such a thing, that we not need to spend so much on science, but reap the rewards of information gathered from all parts of the world?

The Great Lighthouse is almost complete. France still needs more military, and Louis did nothing about trying to get a settlement going down into the jungles, to secure precious dyes. He always scoffed and said "Plenty of time for that later. I must first recount my treasury." Some disagreed with him, and say it truly was vengeful foolishness to send those settlers into the desert instead of the jungle, but no one dared question the Mad One.

The next leader finds much work to be done in France.


- Sirian

Originally posted by Sirian
The Reign of Siris Louis began with a peaceful restructuring of some projects. Then in the first year of his reign, a settler group to which he had issued orders to found a city near Athos continued moving ON THEIR OWN and poor Louis went simply mad. Mad, I say. In a fit of rage, he decreed that these disobedient, upstart rogues of a band of people should be henceforth sent south into the most barren desert to live. None should so defy the emperor of France and not suffer. So let it be known. The city would indeed be founded where Louis ordered, but after his passing, they did deign to name it in his, uh, "honor", that all should know of his enraged proclamation.

Ummm. Is this all dramatic licence, or did I mess up with picking city sites?

Note to self: got to get me one of those graphics programs for my gaming computer, so I can get screenshots and do the proper dot-map thingy :)

Corruption is already plaguing us pretty harshly, for a large map. We've got a lot of cities, but only one is actually running strong. I thought it would be best to use those two settlers I inherited as close to our capital as possible, but I find to my dismay that they were on auto (goto) and moved past one of the sites I would have used. Arrgh. :) Rather than turn one around, I just sent him on to the third site in the area. Not an indictment of your site choices, just dramatic license and a little bit of grumbling about use of "goto".

Goto is somewhat like automating workers. It is an automation of orders. That the AI gives the workers such dopey orders is the main problem with that, but also there is no way to intervene in those orders or even to know who is or isn't on automation. I've ended my turn a few times with a unit or two on goto, but I try to warn the next player. Usually, instead, I just explain what I was intending and let them handle it or veto. Lately in my RBD turns (and after following any number of players, who have all been increasingly doing this) I am finding more and more units with inherited orders. I think that's a negative trend, and this was just the rant. Don't mind me too much. You know how it is. :)

The desert spot is one I believe we want anyway, and having decided not to turn anybody around, I settled in the next two available sites. (If you planned for one of those settlers to go all the way to the dyes, they should have been on the road -- or did Goto take them off the road?) We've done a lot of expanding, and should not fail to secure those dyes and most of that swamp area, but we are also overextended, and all of us seem to have played a wee bit loose with the "foot soldier and artillery piece in every city" rule. I think that rule needs some clarification, or more definition. Should it be a hard rule? As in, these units never ever leave the cities? If not, then under what conditions is it OK to send them elsewhere, and how long can they be away, and if they aren't coming back, how and when must they be replaced? We have way too many nonvet warriors running around. They're almost all going to need to be replaced with better troops. I've still not seen a good site for the FP. Our land is pretty good, actually, but on the other hand, our cities as a whole are in pretty bad shape. The need far outstrips the production rates at the moment, and anything farther out than what we have now (except one more city at Athos and one below Richelieu) are going to single-shield cities for quite some time.


- Sirian

On the artillery, yes, it's tough to keep up with so many needs in this early stage. Basically....

Every city must have an artillery unit...
... garrisoned there
... or being built
... or have one on the way (via goto) from another city

The 'leeway' is in the second point. "Oh! I'll build one just as soon as these walls are done". I wouldn't mind having the artillery in a queue as next, just not ten queue-spots deep or changing the build instructions yet again when its turn comes up.

With no concept of "veteran" catapults, it seems a good idea to have a non-barrack city with medium (or med-low) production value just keep cranking the artillery pieces out, while a better and barracked producers churns out spearmen or swordsmen (and one day musketeers)

I would say compliance so far (from what I've seen) has been good, with only minor slips.

Charis

PS to Sirian... 5:36am for one of your earlier posts?? Get some sleep man!!

Originally posted by Sirian
Goto is somewhat like automating workers. It is an automation of orders.

Kind of, I guess. I would view 'goto point x' more as a single order taking multiple turns, like 'build mine', and not like the worker automation which takes them out of player control for ever and eternity. If I inherit a worker who's got six turns left on building a mine, he's just as much not under my control as a warrior on a six-turn goto action. Admittedly with the worker you can at least find out what he's doing and when he's going to be finished, which you can't with a unit on goto.

I've ended my turn a few times with a unit or two on goto, but I try to warn the next player.

That was what I meant when I said there were 'two settlers heading to likely city sites east of Marseilles'. Next time, I'll try to be more explicit :)

If you settled on desert you missed the spots I was going for anyway, which were both hills. If I had my gaming computer set up to grab screenshots, I'd have posted a map with the destinations marked, which would have given you better information for deciding if you wanted to cancel the goto orders.

all of us seem to have played a wee bit loose with the "foot soldier and artillery piece in every city" rule. I think that rule needs some clarification, or more definition. Should it be a hard rule? As in, these units never ever leave the cities? If not, then under what conditions is it OK to send them elsewhere, and how long can they be away, and if they aren't coming back, how and when must they be replaced?

I spent a lot of my turn building catapults for cities which didn't have them yet. My reading of Charis's rules wasn't that every city must have an infantry defender, but that we're allowed to put an infantry defender in before the artillery (since just having artillery isn't any defence at all). It seems reasonable to me that we should be allowed to take the artillery from a backline city to install in a frontline city which has more urgent need, but then the backline city should get a new artillery piece as soon as possible.

Do we have Feudalism yet? I think getting Art of War would be really helpful, considering how many barracks we don't yet have.

--
Jaffa

Charis: I'm not missing any sleep. As a writer, I typically bend my schedule to the work, not the other way around. Often my most productive hours are through the night, when its quietest, fewest distractions and interruptions, no glare to contend with. There have been some days, for example, where I've gotten up, had breakfast, jumped into a team variant event, then got down to business when that was over, my "day" just getting started rolling at midnight. A post at 8AM could be first thing in the morning for me one week, middle of my day a couple weeks later, and right before sleep the following month. What it almost never is, is me going short on sleep. I have done that a time or two with Civ3, but not something that should worry you. :)

- Sirian

We're over the 24 hours so I'm getting it.

--Cy

err... I think I'm after Ionpure, not you Cy. But, that's ok, take your turn anyway -- if we still haven't heard from Ionpure after your turn, I'll take mine then. :)

Sorry :(

My girlfriend flooded my computer with wather while trying to repair the radiator - she also flooded the rest of my apartment :cry:

Will take a few days to get back to normal business, so I have to quit this game :(

Really hope I can take part in a later game after the computer is back up and I cleaned up all the mess here :aargh3:

Good luck for you :)

ok, will take the game after Cy posts his turn then...

Zed: I was going by the turn roster posted by Charis near the top of this page.

In the year 300, our fine French people, tired of the relentless whipping by previous despots, cast aside their oppressors in favor of an ancient clan of rulers known as too lethargic to whip. Amid chants of “Gastropod!,” “Gastropod!,” the Snail clan resumed the mantle of absolute power. He promised the people (1) and end to the whipping, (2) a better form of government, (3) a strengthening of our military, (4) to use our small but capable navy to carry the Snail Ensign to the four corners of the world and, (5) more catapults! In this way did Cy-Bigomeau assume power.

Pursuant to item (2), the first royal decree was to establish a Commission to Investigate the form of Government known as A Republic. When CIGAR explained that they needed funds to perform their function, Cy_Bigomeau suggested they prepare a RFP, make 7 copies, affix the proper tax stamps, and deliver them to him in a few years or decades or so. Until then, it would be unwise to waste money on spurious research, so all funds would be saved for their glorious project.

310. The Great Lighthouse is completed! Une bonne idee! Our navies are instructed to strike out and explore the world, to seek out new civilizations, to boldly go where no snail has gone before! The indigent Indians contact us, seeking to end our Ivory for Spices deal. They ask for Ivory and Horses to continue the trade. Bah! Is that all, I ask? Why not the keys to my palace while we are at it? I have no greater desire than to see your horsemen galloping through our territory. Mon dieu! Instead I give them Ivory and 40 gold. Perhaps they can go to Wal*Mart and buy themselves a new bowling shirt with elephants on it.

320. Zzzz.

330. Chartres founded. Why, I am not quite sure 8-0. Our intrepid explorer, far to the southwest, espies an Indian galley prowling about. Zut! India’s days in the dark are to be short-lived. I keep and eye on the galley.

340. Zut Alors! A Japanese warrior wanders near the galley. It is time to finally tell the world that a civilization as putrid as India exists. The information is so shocking, that the other civs give us gold to go away and not tell them any more horror stories.

350. Shocked by finding out how insignificant they truly are, the curried-elephant-eaters crowd our border with bowmen and spearmen. I upgrade all warriors in barracks cities to swordsmen, and start the curly shuffle with the rest to get them upgraded. Barbarians attack a warrior I have wandering the area around the dies to the south.

360. The idle Indians decide to send their troops on holiday in another part of the country, and they leave the border area.

370. Zzzz.

380. At last! One of our galleys finds a galley from a new civ! Contact is made with the Persians! They have luxuries to trade, and this galley sails off to (try to) establish a sea route. Much other wheeling and dealing is done with the other civs 8-).

390-400. Zzzz.

At this point, Cy_Bigomeau paused to review the outcome of his promises to the people.

(1) No whipping. I had a couple of cities that were locked in no-growth because of entertainers needed because of unhappiness over whipping. We’ve about hit the limit on this. That being said, one night while he was asleep, Cy_Bigomeau’s evil twin brother Skippy slipped out and did some whipping of his own…
(2) CIGAR’s research is still, tragically, bound up in red tape and our research budget remains at 0. No techs were found in the Great Library, either. Our production sucks. I sincerely hope that by my next turn, the Snail Party wins a peaceful, Democratic, election.
(3) Military. We’re starting to get there. Paris is popping out horsemen and Athos, spearmen, every 4 turns, continuously. All warriors have been or are moving to barracks for an upgrade (except for Bastogne, where I htough it prudent to wait for relief first, and not leave a border city vacant). As we get spearmen moved into cities being held by swordsmen, that will free the swordsmen up for offensive operations. We’ll have a flying squad of horsemen that upgrade all the way to Cav, and and two squads of 6 swordsmen for offense. This is just a short-term goal (no more swords being made by me as they obsolete). What I was actually working towards is to have, post feudalism, 1-2 Pikemen in every town and 2 flying squads of 6 knights each. Current army is 12 spearmen, 9 swordsmen, 6 warriors still, and 4 horsemen. Oh, and 18 glorious catapults 8-).
(4) Navy. We finally found the other civ! That galley is on it’s way to a Persian harbor trying to get the damned game to admit we have a clear line of sight-sea route. What does it take? I never build ships, so I am not sure of the requirements. The manual says line-of-sight sea route, but we already have that. Does the galley have to physically go to one of their harbors? The other galley is heading south down the west coast of the only unexplored continent—ours (gulp). Personally, I think it is time to build another one for home-waters operations, but that is up to future rulers.
(5) Catapults. I think I’m in compliance here 8-). The only cities without are Point du Hoc and Cod Piece, both of which are still building their first ground unit and will go for catapults next.

Other notes:

Our western island. I am making a worker in Bastille. There is water on the southern part near Cod Piece, and resources to road up. The AI tends to suck at developing these kind of areas for a looooong time--with a worker we can get a jump. OTOH, Greece has Russia penned up as badly as we have India, so Russia might put more emphasis on this island. If our two cities here get a good jump (or if our worker finds something cool in the interior) a third city tying the two together would be worth it, IMHO, but is definitely the absolute lowest priority right now 8-). It is always amusing to get these games and go “I see what they were doing, but WTF didn’t they put the city 2 squares X direction instead of where they put it?” Heh.

Dyes. I have a settler in the jungle, a warrior on the way to meet him, and a worker building a road in. All are moving turn-by-turn, and I haven’t picked out a city spot. I just wanted a city, and the dies online, as trading lux is about to kick into gear (finally). We’re also going to have some lingering happiness issues (I think) over the whipping when we swap governments, and a few native lux never hurt 8-).

Goody huts. There are two on the map. I’d send a horseman after the one south of the dies, but the one on the island west of Louis the mad is going to take a galley to get to 8-). I would NOT turn around the galley near it, as it is on the way to the only dark coastline left on the map, but, again, it is up to future rulers to decide.

Workers. I have some useless irrigation giong in on to get water moved around, and it is time for some useful irrigation (and other improvements) near Bastogne once we can shake a worker loose.

Treasury. 2,066 gold and +58 per turn.

Athos and Wonders. We have none to build right now, so I was alternating settlers (the pop is already to 12 and Sanitation is, to put it mildly, a loooooooong ways off) with basic city improvements that this powerhouse can turn out in 4-6 turns. Its Library will come in next turn, when the next ruler can pop another settler in 2 turns or get a chathedral put in. As to wonders, we have a bunch of barracks already, so Shih Tzu’s Kennel of war may not be a good deal. The Sistine is coming, but pre-building might be problematic, as our good city (Athos) can’t do a palace, and the drop off is rather severe after that. No one is building a wonder at all right now, my feeling is to let it (it equals pre-building, in this case) ride until some other civ commits or something changes. Another problem for future rulers.

Grumpiness. Did someone use an autosave? If not, the bug is more insidious than is known. The bloody AI is trading during my turn, which makes me quite grumpy.

Want a good laugh? At first sight on the map, the Persian Empire is terrifying. Go take a look at their land. HaHa! Eventually, it won’t be funny, as they will have 9 billion shields, but right now it is a hoot. Kinda gives you a new perspective about cursing our starting spot, eh?

Good luck to future rulers of Glorious France!

--Cy

We have the catapult! Vive la France! India wears purple underpants!

Note to Cy: No problem, I wasn't quite ready to take my turn then anyway. The revised turn order was posted by Charis on Jan 22, if you care to look at it.

Incidentally, I bet the Great Lighthouse doesn't help for trade, meaning sea squares won't do until we get Navigation or Magnetism; thus we still need a coastal route.

Nit: The Lighthouse definitely does mimic Astronomy, bringing sea squares online for trade path.

It might be that both sides in the trade agreement need "revealed map" squares along the path of the trade route. We could try selling everyone our world map, that ought to bring Russia online, if we ourselves can see a path to one of their harbors. Now that India contact has been made, there's no more good use for holding back on our map.

- Sirian

Well, I was just guessing on that one, but I find that a mite surprising. That's good news for us anyway... :)


Ok, got it, will play tonight.

410 AD (1): Athos builds Library, starts Settler. Porthos builds Spearman, starts Aqueduct.

420 AD (2): All for One builds spearman, starts worker.

430 AD (3): Athos builds settler, starts Cathedral. Tours builds spearman, starts Harbour. Aramis builds spearman, starts Library.

440 AD (4): One for All builds spearman, starts catapult for Point du Hoc. Marseilles builds Courthouse, starts Temple. Monte Crisco builds Catapult, starts Temple.

450 AD (5): zzz

460 AD (6): All for One finishes worker, starts another. Greeks start building Art of War in Thessalonica (size 4.)

470 AD (7): Bane of Bombay completes Barracks, starts worker.

480 AD (8): We get Republic, Monarchy, and Feudalism out of the Library! We initiate the French Revolution!

490-500 AD: Lots of cities in civil disorder pending end of revolution. We have a warrior about to hit a goody hut, and a swordsman on the way to another. We should have put warriors on our Galleys, we could have picked up a couple other huts. :)

Well 480 was a banner year for the French scientists! :goodjob:

Lots of cities in civil disorder pending end of revolution

Hmmm.... What do others do? I thought that cities under disorder do bad things like flip, start tearing down city improvements, etc. When I start a revolution I always go through and redistribute to keep the folks content and avoid disorder. Shields are the first to go because there is no production at all.
We'll be in anarchy for what, 3-4 turns? With that many cities in civil disorder, chances are decent something unpleasant could occur.

Fast way to do it: hover cursor over "center square", click to redistribute in a way that will 'fix' the mood and emphasize food. Use your *KEYBOARD* right arrow key, click again. You can do an empire of dozens of cities in about 20-30 seconds. Repeat when coming back to a new government, and if needed 'adjust' workers for better shield output.

Is this a great idea... common knowledge... or dumb?! :love:

Charis

Jean Paul's artillery regiment saw there was anarchy sweeping through the
land, and sought to impose military rule to protect and serve the people.
Louis Charisse thus came to power...

500 AD (0) - Stationed troops (uh, and hired entertainers, to be honest) to
calm down the people! One LONE Scientist, oddly enough in the town of
Louis the Mad, kept the torch of research going! Well done Dr. Loius!
He takes a Sabbatical in Porthos :P

Wowza! Look at that treasury!! You guys left this for me?! (Almost 2400!)

510 AD (1) - Japan feels urge to start on some Gardens. That and SunTzu by
Greeks are the only current wonder projects in the world... The 'goto'
Warrior wakes up angry barbs.

520 AD (2) - So much for no projects, Greeks start Hanging Gardens, Russians
and Romans start both that and Sun Tzu, and Persians start to Hang.
Wasn't there much discussion to avoid this -- folks will cascade into
Sistine, which we wouldn't mind getting, and we're not only not building,
we have no placeholders or plans.

530 AD (3) - India is squeamish about our Silk - Ivory deal. We add 2 gpt to renew.

540 AD (4) - Viva Le Republique!!!! The time of anarchy is over :goodjob:
Hmm, what about those wonders? Athos is a powerhouse with 21 shield rate.
We're halfway (4 turns) from Cathedral, but they're happy enough for the
moment there without it. So we switch to Sun Tzu, which might instead become
Sistene later. (Theology due in 19) We put Paris on Hanging Gardens, since
it looked basically like nothing more than a city of stables for horses!
Major Charisse surveyed the artillery situation and found all up to snuff!

550 AD (5) - 570 AD (7) - Takin' care of business...

580 AD (8) - Greece makes an outrageous 'request' for tribute, world map and
100 gold (see! that's what having a fat treasury will do) I tell him
"That will be all" and see he's bluffing. On my turn I take a look at him
in trade. He's broke, large number of cities, no extra luxuries or
resources. Equal in tech. We have nothing to offer each other. I toss
him a silver dollar.

600 AD (10) - Those 'goto' swordsmen on a long trek got... 'maps' :(
Running a small deficit on science, so that Theology will arrive
before Sun Tzu gets built (by us or otherwise).

Consider carefully the wonder situation. Also, there's a settler in Porthos
who just popped out with no plans and with full movement left.
It would be nice, but too unlikely, if no one else researched Theology
before SunTzu and Hanging were complete. Athos might be strong enough to
snag a current one and Sistine right after it. Education and Music Theory
next? Or Astronomy? Paris will finish (unless beat) Hanging Gardens BEFORE
Sun Tzu in Athos. The other way around would see Sun Tzu opponents switch
to the lower-shield-cost Hanging and snatch it. Sistine is also a 600 shield
wonder, and it's hard to see Athos getting beat out, even starting a few
turns behind. It's even got five excess food! Could change some irrigates
to mines for even more production.

Roster/order:
Charis
Jaffa
Sirian
Cy
Zed
(Poor Ionpure has been plagued with problems, and we wish him luck ;p
If things clear up and on his request we can reinstate, but for now
go with the above list of 5)

Good luck :P
Charis

How about we ride the Great Library for all its worth, let the AI's continue to go broke at first-civ research costs, get their gains for free until such time as they deign to educate themselves, pray they have a fascination for gunpowder (I've seen it happen), save our treasury (and continue to grow it), then run 100% science (or less, if we reach the 4 turn breakthrough rate) at whatever insane deficits once the Library goes obsolete as we race ahead on the back of all our stored gold and rushbuilt (with cash) improvements, like courthouses and libraries?

Just a thought. :) Don't mind me, I'm over here in the corner mostly being quiet for this game. :)

:sheep:

What's enabled again? Cultural? And what else? What kind of endgame vision do you have in mind? What direction would you like to see things take? You wanted artillery practice, and for that, we need to gear up for some war. Do you want to attack somebody with knights and catapults? Cavalry and cannon? Or wait for the Full Monty and roll over them with genuine artillery? Or try some of each? Or just build artillery for show, and roll them around between our cities? :lol:

Or... what? And why (in this situation) are you preferring Sistine over SunTzu to such a degree as to research Theology (which we WOULD get for free... eventually)? Lead us! Tell us what to do, oh brave Fourth Musketeer! :) Reveal your visions to the masses.

All For One, and One For All! :king:


- Sirian

Pre-building note: I left Athos on Cathedral precisely because I knew it would take longer to complete than my turn, so if we wanted to switch it to a wonder we could. :)

Note that de Winter was being seduced at the end of the turn by the Indians cultural expansion -- I started a Library there to help offset it and try to get our borders back up but we may need more than that.

The advisor to the king had a chilling dream one night, as the ghost of Arthos spoke to him...

"Pasteur, listen my friend. The people are happy, and the world has been at peace for so long some have forgotten what it is to be at war. Peace is fleeting, and alliances are deceptive. There is power in but one element... artillery! Diplomats may see gain, and pikemen may hold a wall, but it is only the daunting pyschological and kinetic power of artillery that will carry the day in the end. D'Artagnon did not believe me at first. What need does a musketeer have for 'backup' ?? And yet... the art of the musketeer is lost, and must soon be found again!"

"In my own day, I too had a vision. It was a vision for the greatness of France. I saw monsterous birdlike machines vaulting up to the sky, and them causing our destruction. I saw armies go to war who would not finish the job, which led to our destruction. I saw diplomats and the arts leading us to a peaceful supremacy, but one in which the hearts of the people found no meaning, for all came too easy to them. Then I saw a vision where the musketeers of France spread throughout the WHOLE of the earth, and did conquer lesser foes. This though, was not with malice, but for self protection. And once we reign in all lands, a *true* peace of contentment came about for all..."

"Train, Pastuer. Train Musketeers. Build Cannons. Prepare for war. Finish studying the ways of the ancient of days and theology, and turn yourselves toward him. After that... turn your selves to the ways of musket, bore and bombardment."

----

'Plain' answers to Sirian's questions:

> How about we ride the Great Library for all its worth, let the
> AI's continue to go broke at first-civ research costs, get their
> gains for free until such time as they deign to educate
> themselves, save our treasury (and continue to grow it), then
> run 100% science (or less, if we reach the 4 turn breakthrough
> rate) at whatever insane deficits once the Library goes
> obsolete as we race ahead on the back of all our stored gold
> and rushbuilt (with cash) improvements, like courthouses and
> libraries?

Given the non-Civ-2 way of dealing with Education, this is worth a shot -- I can't say I've tried it this late before (it HAS worked well in late ancient period).

> What's enabled again? Cultural? And what else? What kind of
> endgame vision do you have in mind?

Diplomacy, Cultural, Conquest are enabled. Conquest is preferred unless we just want to see the defensive power of artillery :P Having a cultural city timed to win as a backup around 2040 would be good too, and we'll need to build the UN to avoid sudden loss due to diplo.

> What direction would you
> like to see things take? You wanted artillery practice, and for
> that, we need to gear up for some war. Do you want to ...

> Or just build artillery for show, and roll them around between
> our cities?

The latter is definitely NOT the plan ;)

I would really like to see artillery take a BIG role with weapons of most eras. With our peaceful start the cats didn't do much. To go there we would need to go full bore NOW and crush India before the invention of gunpowder. Even better is we get it JUST before they do and we see Musketeers take the OFFENSE in this first war. Musketeers, Knights and Cannons will see the brunt of late Medieval action, with Cavalry coming in at the end.

Artillery shows up with Replaceable Parts and Infantry. Tanks, Marines, Paratroopers and Battleships show up not long after that. Haven't fought with Marines or Para's in Civ3, and only used them maybe twice in Civ 2, so a major surprise campaign dropping a huge army on their coastal cities would rock.

After that, no new guns until Radar Artillery. I *definitely* want to see a war prosecuted with Radar Artillery and modern weapons including missiles, I've never seen that in action and don't know if I ever would again :P

Six opponents, should give us a chance for a good variety of war. One difficulty with artillery based conquest might be its speed, and the lack of a big blitz. That means we can't wait til 2045 to discover Robotics. We'll want a very strong science rate to get to modern quickly, once it comes on the horizon.

> Or... what? And why (in this situation) are you preferring Sistine
> over SunTzu to such a degree as to research Theology (which
> we WOULD get for free... eventually)?

SunTzu is nice, probably more important than Sistine, but artillery do not benefit from barracks ;p Actually, considering all this upgrading we'll need to do to fight through modern times, we shout REALLY try to get Leo's, shouldn't we? (As to why Theo... I guess I still have a mindset of 'you don't get much medieval techs from GL and "Sistine is the best", combined with getting to my turns at too late an hour ;p)

So yes, SunTzu and Leo's seem like they should be top priorities, and I would like the team's thought on whether to go high-hog on military unit production and go after India with Knights and Cats ???

Also, input from the team on the garrison artillery rule -- I realize now that if we start cranking knights and musketeers, our artillery support will be sitting at home defending attacks that are not coming. The question is: do we need a rule-shift allowing our masses of catapults to leave garrison duty and head towards Milady and the Indian homeland for offensive duty, re-making ones for garrison after the war is over? I think between the low cost of cats and the ability to send what we have and "queue" up a replacement catapult, we'll be ok -- I just don't want to see us start world war I with 18 catapults sitting at home doing absolutely nothing.

Speak up, musketeers... thoughts on wars and wonders?! (And on late late modern conquest goal)

Charis

PS If we can, pre-war, get roads built in those Northern mountain passes or our artillery will never be able to get up there.

Hmm. We should try to get Sun Tzu, Leo's, and Sistine. :)

Seriously, if we're going to be trying to get to the Modern age we will need research once the GL expires, which means we really ought to be in a Republic government... which means oscillating war. Sistine (and/or Bach) would be of great help in combatting war weariness. Right now our larger cities are managing to keep enough people happy only by running 20% lux, and even then it's barely enough to let them max out at 12 without other contributors to unhappiness.

My vote would be, let's try to concentrate on:
- (priority 1) infrastructure and wonders that will help long term growth of our cities or with waging a war (e.g. aqueducts, cathedrals, above-mentioned wonders)
- (priority 2) support units that we can build now
- (priority 3) other less vital infrastructure.

Then, when we get Gunpowder, we switch over to musketeers, build up a large force, and go on the offensive! Conquering enemies in the early middle ages with Knights is so... conventional. :)

I agree that the garrison catapults should be allowed to be mobilized -- the rule ought to be (IMO) we should *own* x number of artillery units per city, regardless of where they are used/garrisoned. By the time we get our rail net put together, we will probably have *so many* that we will definately want to stack them all in one city to keep track of them all...

As for modern conquest, let's head in that direction but just see where the road takes us. If the road goes all the way to the modern era, fine, but I wouldn't want to delay victory simply to see those shiny new units. Proliferation of units to move, pollution to clean up, etc. tends to make the game bog down in the modern age (if not before!), and we're already on a large map which will exascerbate the issue.


EDIT: If we disabled Space & Domination, doesn't that mean the AI can't win by those means either? I mention it because in the story you have visions of those scenarios causing France's defeat.

0) 600AD Settler sent to fill in the gap between the dye town (Avignon) and the rest of our empire. Trade furs + 24 gold for Japanese wines, and get 10 gold back to renew RoP. Cancel RoP with Rome since they have nothing to pay us with.

Tried to renegotiate the furs deal with India, but they weren't having any of it (apparently they have their own furs now, and were just paying us 5 gold/turn for no reason. So we lost that. Ooops).

Turned off the science budget to let the GL do its stuff. With just 10% entertainment, we're at +61 gold/turn.

There are an astonishing number of unused goody huts. Are we saving them for after the GL expires?

1) 610AD A new wing is built on our royal palace, in a strange mixture of architectural styles. (Huh? I didn't know you could mix-and-match?)

4) 640AD Entertainment back up to 20%.

6) 660AD New island discovered to the south. Cows and iron and fish and goody huts.

7) 670AD India complains about our galley in their water, so we complain about their galleys in ours.

9) 690AD Rouen founded. Japan wants to trade world maps. The trade screen shows that the furs for wine deal I set up at the beginning of my turn has vanished. WTF? Theology pops out of the Library :) Most of the rest of the world starts building Sistine Chapels.

10) 700AD Indian settlers are sneaking in past Milady. Again. Unload a conscript swordsman from a galley onto a goody hut, and it vanishes. Merf? Was it empty, or do goody huts not work if you unload onto them?

I haven't yet told the Indians to get out of our territory. Again.

The settler in Bastogne still has movement left this turn. I was aiming to grab more of the jungles (where the swordsman is waiting).

There is a catapult en route to Rouen. I sent all our extra catapults to Milady.

:beer:

Looks like a decent turn. Poor Indians, they're so confused :P Now if you see a swordsman stack or elephants, be worried, but the AI just doesn't send a settler wave to fight a war. Keep an eye, but don't panic.

Back to wonders discussion...

I see Paris is rather close to Hanging, and Athos not far from Sun Tzu's. Also available to go for is Sistine. In our earlier discussions we seemed to pick SunTzu and Leo's as top priorities. Sistine was ok if we got it, and Hanging near useless due to early obsolescence.

A) Finish Hanging and Sun Tzu. We'll get those unless there's a big surprise lurking. Everyone and his brother will go for Sistine. We can even set Athos after it, but it will take around 23 or so turns after it starts. I rather doubt we'll get it, given that how many folks have been going after hanging and suntzu. At zero research, Athos will have NOTHING to switch to. If Paris instead may as well consider a placeholder, he doesn't have a chance.
IF no one else researches Invention by then, the cascade ends and Athos can get Leo's at will (when we research it or get it from Library)

B) Finish Sun Tzu, switch Paris to Sistine. This punts on the Gardens, someone will get it soon after, methinks. Again everyone is then gunning for Sistine. We'll have Paris due to finish it in 22 turns. (Having Athos start it would take 23ish turns from then, or 29 turns total) This might quite close, although less so than 'A'. If we make it BEFORE Invention is discovered, the cascade ends and Athos can build Leo's.

Summary: :hammer:
A- Get SunTzu and Garden, target Sistine 29 turns from now in Athos. Being beat loses 300-600 shields (unless we research invention before we lose the race)
B- Get SunTzu, target Sistine in Paris 22 turns from now. Being beat sets Paris on Leo placeholder, achievable 22 turns from now or when we learn Invention, whichever later.

If the top non-Garden opponent for these and reaches in...
< 22 turns -- we're toast in A, and hope no one has Invention by then.
22 to 29 turns -- the pain is even worse, same outcome, and more time for them to come up with Invention
>= 29 turns -- if Invention is not discovered, a clean sweep of Garden, Sistine, Sun AND Leo. If it is (and that's a LONG time), we'll get Sistine but lose Leo.

Which means- if they don't research Invention in 22-29 turns, we'll get Leo no matter what. If they research it we'll lose it in A, and have a got shot at it with B.

So, upcoming leader, (Sirian?) how bad do you want Leo's? How many turns do you think it will take for AI to get Invention? Will the top contender finish <22, >29 or in between? The latter you can find out for sure by Embassy action :rolleyes:, if you check out the top contenders: Athens, Moscow, any powerhouse cities that might announce in next half-dozen turns, and possibly Delphi if we do complete Gardens.

If we wanted to take matters more into our own hands, we could
research Invention on our own in, oh, 12-15 turns and about 800-1000 gold.

A final comment, if need be, Paris can be speeded up by 2-3 shields per turn by mining the undeveloped grassland square (and possibly mining one of the irrigated grasses temporarily) shaving one or two turns if investigation showed the race to be THAT close.

Good luck!! :goodjob:
Charis

I'll probably try for A. I'll see what I think in the game and decide from there. And I can always remind myself that no matter how bleak this SEEMS to look, we've got it way WAY WAYYYYYYYYYYYY the Heck better than some other succession games (*cough*7*cough*).

:sheep:

A? A! A there. F'in A. AAA. An A for an A. Good A, mate! A A, sir. A!

Inherited turn: Everything looks good, almost no changes made. I am disappointed to see that my "irrigate Richelieu" project was abandoned after my last turn and vow to correct this.

710AD: Swordsmen heading for Greece are recalled. Milady de Winter dials me up and informs me that she "shall have gems heaped upon her" or else defect to India. Grrr. Saucy wench. I tell you, she is pure evil. But... better OUR evil woman than India's, so I cave to the demand and send our closest settler and pikeman pair on Goto toward the gems in the far south, just beyond the jungle. Our swordsman wandering the jungles is dispatched in that direction, too. Our workers are now in one of three categories: many are heading south, cleaning up jobs along the way. We should have a bunch of them reaching the jungles on next players' turn. We have a pack of them in the west, finishing up there. We have scattered others doing small local jobs. I order our ships at the ends of the earth to start returning home. Mass of Indian settlers ordered OUT of Milady's territory. She is COMPLETELY LIVID and wants Ghandi's head on a pike, but when we offer to get it for her "in lieu of gems", she shuts up for a while, and India is spared an invasion.

720AD: A Charis agent broke into the treasury. Something about "Sherwood Jungle" and the next thing I know, three temples in the far south have been completed, including at that ridiculous desert outpost founded by the King of Currency. A better lock has been put on the treasury room. Swordsmen on the recall make a pit stop on mountainous island to extort 50 gold from a minor tribe there.

730AD: India has wised up. They are now sending their settlers AROUND our land on all kinds of galleys. Look for Indian settlements to be popping up all over the world in a couple of centuries.

740AD: Hanging A, people! The A Gardens have been completed! All for A, and A for One. (Sirian, dozing at the wheel, fails to take Codpiece and Bastille off of taxmen, but he'll probably catch on to this overlooked move by the end of his turn).

750AD: I sell off all our barracks. Recalled swordsmen have landed on mainland, attack a hostile minor tribe and carry off their wealth (25 gold), then head eastward to meet up with Lady de Winter's gem merchants.

760AD: SunTzu's completed.

770AD: Our vet galley in far FAR south attacks and sinks a barb galley, losing another health. Second barb galley attacks us, loses, our ship promoted to elite. Loius the Mad seems to have completed a harbor! How that happened is now under investigation.

780AD: Maginot founded on border with India. Musketeers declare "cross the Maginot Line at your own peril".

790AD: Richelieu Irrigation Project, Stage One completed.

800AD: Galley mysteriously constructed at Mad King Louis. SCANDAL! The Prime Minister himself has been ordering all the government projects for this city. He tries to explain "there's a Persian galley threatening to grab the goody hut" but nobody is listening. Every city in the empire wants "some of that pork barrel" for themselves, and Charis agents are seen to be crowing that the Petard has been caught in his own Hoist. :spank:

Out goes Sirian, and in comes some other leader.


Notes: tried to wait on ships coming home to deal with goody huts, but it's taking too long. Board a sword onto new ship and go get them, while we still can. Watch out for barb ships along the way, I cleared the ones I could see but there may be more.

I mostly built infrastructure in the north. In the south I built more settlers. There is the one heading for Milady's Gems. It is on goto and will arrive in 3 or 4 more turns. The location of choice is a hill on the river directly northwest of the gems. Rushbuild a catapult to comply with the rules, then rushbuild temple and walls and fortify all the areas in the unit in that town, as it will have big fat target painted on it.

There is a second settler at the end of a river just behind the first one. It has no military escort and is on a good city site right where it's at. A third settler is moving into the region. We ought to be able to grab everything this side of those gems. My only request, please build ON the rivers. That will save us 400 gold apiece in not having to rush aqueducts someday. There is another good "front line" location directly under the fortified conscript swordsman. This region, if it sees a lot of development and troop buildup (our troops) could someday be a candidate region for leader-rushed FP. India being the other region (if we go and conquer them).

As for wonders: Sistine will surely be lost. So it goes. NO TECH was researched by anybody during my turn. I have Porthos on placeholder, with ~150 shields stored up. It can hold out another 50+ turns, so that should be no problem. Depending on what and when the AI's research, I see these options:

PLAN A: If the AI's research Education next, and cancel out our library thingie, we should top-rate it to Music Theory and grab Bach's.

PLAN B: If the AI's research Engineering next, we should put one scientist up to make sure we get Invention within 40 turns after that, but hope they research it for us before then. Grab Leo with the project.

PLAN C: If the AI's research Printing Press or Chivalry next, just hold out and see what happens. Unless we get within 20 turns of Palace completion with no signs of progress toward a wonder tech, I'd say not to panic, just hold out and follow Plans A or B.

PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE: do our own research.

All of these involve the AI's getting Sistine, and the cascade ending there. If for any reason it takes them another 20+ turns for someone to finish Sistine, I'll eat my hat. :crazyeyes They all had the tech before we finished Gardens, and every AI civ has cascaded its best project to Sistine now. Surely someone must finish it before they get Leo online. Surely!


- Sirian

I've got it, but it will either be late tonight (after Summon Team Game) or tomorrow before I can play/post.

I think I'll devote our entire economy to researching Vinification. How can France not know how to make wine?

--Cy

In the year 800, the people of the Glorious Republic of France grew weary of the predictability of their recent run of stable, efficient rulers, and, in what was surely to be a silly move, turned to the infamous Snail Party to interject some random events. In this way did Cy_Cargolade assume power. The name of his house was prophetic, as, indeed, his term was to be a mixed bag. In fact, the regency of Cy_Cargolade was such a mixture, that his library did not keep the history of his reign in tidy chronological order, but in large piles, organized by subject, and spanning all the years. These piles were much-favored crawling spots for the pet snails.

In no particular order, here are the actions and issues.

Burma. This is Cy’s name for the southern jungle cut off by mountains. I founded 3 cities in Burma. Grenoble is at the mouth of the river where Sirian had left a settler, Dijon by the gems, and Amiens in the heart of the jungle dead west of Avignon. The roadway is pushed through Grenoble and on its way to Dijon to link up the gems. Dijon got a little rush money, and already has walls, a temple, and a catapult. Glorious catapults are taken care of in the other cities as well, with an extra one for the area still trundling down a road. Neither Rouen nor Avignon have troops in them at the moment, but some are on the way in the great troop shuffle (more on that later). Two more settlers are created and on their way to jump-off cities in Burma. They should just about fill in the area. All is not well in Burma, however. This leads me to…

What the hell are the Japanese up to? First off, they are building very aggressively straight at Dijon. Secondly, they had an odd bag of units prowling around. I’m used to military/settler pairs from the AI, and to random military units acting as scouts. I am NOT used to what I saw. As I started to settle cities, shift troops, and have short-term exposed workers, settlers, and cities in Burma, I rotated two horsemen out of Paris to keep an eye on things. A turn before I founded Dijon by the gems, and as the Amiens settler was on the move, a warrior/spearman pair of Japanese was sniffing around the gems. The turn after Dijon was settled, a stack of 4 Japanese bowmen showed up, as well as two horsemen, and all headed past Dijon and into Burma. As I was absolutely wide open (open cities, workers, settlers) I found this quite alarming, and rotated two more horsemen out of Paris, and grabbed every loose military unit that was not on the Indian border and sent it scrambling south. In a way, this was even MORE alarming. I had checked the numbers on the military screen when I took over, and they looked fine. When I went looking for units, I discovered that the numbers were deceiving, as we have an enormous amount of cities and all our units are tied up in garrison work. I started pumping out some pikemen (soon to become glorious musketmen!), but the effort is a bit feeble. Anyway, my first two horsemen met the first two Japanese units at the edge of Amiens, and they stopped and fortified. On the same turn, a number of Japanese units turned around and left Burma. I still kept the troop rotation coming, moving everything forwards and south. The rotation created 3 empty cities, but they are well screened, and troops are on the way. Now, for future leaders of our great Republic—WARNING Will Robinson! Danger approaching. Admittedly, the AI being the AI, it will muff its chance to cause us no end of grief and nothing nasty will happen. All the same, note that BOTH India and Japan have both Monotheism and Feudalism, and that BOTH only need Chivalry to get their UU’s. (Japan is currently out of Iron, but, judging by our last World Map, they can get it). Yep. Starting any turn we could be facing BOTH War Elephants in the north and Samurai in the south. Not to mention we are stretched thin and our country is looooooooong and no rail. I think a move of our own to Chivalry and production of a couple of dozen knights ASAP might do wonders for our outlook. I would also pay 1k gold to start a nice 100-year war between Rome and Japan right now…

Research. Sigh. Education was learned via the Great Library in 850 AD. The gravy train is dead. C’est la vie, non? I cranked up research on Music Theory beyond rational limits (but not too completely irrational ones) and it will come in in 3 turns. We are running a 55 gp deficit to do this. We could get it in 4 turns at –8. No one has completed the Sistine yet. Oh, and Chivalry next, right?

The galley follies. I mounted a two-pronged expedition to destroy a few goody villages in order to save them (this also left Louis the Mad open; a Pikeman is in production in Marseilles to garrison Louis). Anyways, the first ship hit the small Island west of Louis first, only to disturb some angry tribesmen and fight them off. He re-boarded, and was dropped off on the northern coast of the promontory east of Dijon to trek across to the next hut (will take 4 more turns, and two Roman units are also wandering around here) while his galley went the long way around. This way, if the galley were sunk, the Swordsman would still be in operation (so far the galley has beaten off 3 barb galleys and a 4th is about to attack). Galley number 2 is trailing the empty one, letting it beat off the barbs, and is on its way with its own swordsman to the next island south with 3 huts.

Good luck to all future rulers 8-).

Zzzzzzzzz.

--Cy

As thin as we look, we do have an awfully large number of catapults. :) This may sound crazy, but the last thing the AI likes to encounter is a stack of artillery. Elephants, Samurai, and cavalry run when wounded (when the AI is controlling them). I'm not much worried about India over land, although they could prod us quite nicely with a few galley's full of ships across the bay.

Japan could probably own us down there, but it's just as much a reach for them as for us, or nearly so. This is why I coralled all the units I could on my turn and migrated settlers, troops and workers in that direction.

We definitely need MANY more troops for an empire of this size, and we're going to start feeling lack of a forbidden palace soon (No, I mean WORSE than we do already). All the other RBD games, we've paid attention to the FP and gotten it fairly to very early. This terrain never quite offered a sensible location).

While the idea of knights does sound militarily prudent, we can make do on horsies a while longer, I believe. Considering that we might possibly see the AI's build Sistine too slowly, and cascade to Bach/Cop, we may want to rush the research to Invention (and our glorious Gunpowder!) next. In fact, we probably want to do that anyway, since even if we do get Bach, Leo is still important for all the ENDLESS catapult upgrades we'll be doing. We can't upgrade to a UU, though. All our Musketeers will have to be built from scratch at the whopping 60 shields per.


- Sirian

First off, a "BUMP" to Zed, you're up!

As thin as we look, we do have an awfully large number of catapults.

They LUST for action! And yet... the timing... is not great.

I'm scratching my head over FP too. Perhaps Delhi :hammer:

I certainly like the Invention and Musketeer idea, theme wise :cooool: Leo's would make triple upgrades on 124 catapults a little more palatable! (It does rot that current
pikemen are trapped, upgradewise. But UU's do get to upgrade. We'll need to keep M'eers around a loooong time for fire control (gunny sgt! :rocket3:) Remember, if you wan't to fire a cannon without a Musketeer at the helm... :nono:
With that in mind, there should be some war not too far in the distant future, where the obsoleting pikemen are with the catapults in our first campaign.

The knights, or cavs, would be 'typical', and prudent, but... we're variants here! Let the artillery (which can't blitz anyway) do the work for you and even a Musketeer can deal the final blow on a city :p It's going to be a long haul, deliberately but effectively taking apart the world, one civ at a time, over several era's.

Saltpeter! They need it don't they??? We absolutely, positively, 100% NEED to control one or more saltpeter supplies! The better we learn where those are, the better off we'll be.

Charis

Hrm. Ok, got it... not sure why I didn't realize it was my turn, but there you go. Thanx for the reminder! :splat:

I probably could have gotten a turn in today too, but now I expect it will have to wait for tomorrow.

EDIT: Note we will be able to upgrade our Pikemen to Riflemen, eventually...

EDIT: I see why I didn't realize it was my turn -- I normally go before Cy and after Sirian, not after Cy. Unless we want to change the posted turn order. :)

Seems like what we need right now is more military... only higher priority is to ensure all cities have growth potential. Future thought for FP - once we clear out all that jungle it could be a reasonable spot for one. We really won't be able to do it until we get rails, however, 'cause otherwise it's just too hard to defend to put any serious commitment down there. That's far in the future though... I suppose it depends on how well the war with India goes, that might be a better spot since it's harder for the AI to assault.

900 (0): Some changes in city production based on revised focus. Porthos is going to grow in 2 turns, but is almost ready to go into unrest. Will an extra pop be able to generate enough extra trade to give another lux? Experimenting with moving workers around the city reveals the answer is yes, if it's on a coastal square. Orleans has a tax collector and a cathedral, but no aqueduct? :crazyeyes Tax collector sent to the mines! Several of our best production cities, Milady de Winter, Aramis, All for One, One for All, and of course Paris are on Horsemen and Pikemen, or soon will be. Most of our other cities are working on Aqueducts and/or Marketplaces (for happiness more than for money, since markets are cheaper than Cathedrals for us.) I leave Athos on University placeholder though as we stll have a number of Great Wonders to grab. Science set to 40% to get Music Theory in 4 rather then 3 and run -11 instead of -58.

910 (1): Paris (stuck at 12) builds a worker, starts horseman. One for All builds Library, starts horseman. Amiens builds catapult for local defense, starts worker.

920 (2): Milady de Winter completes Pikeman, starts another. Moscow completes Sistine Chapel. No hat-eating for Sirian this time; and that should end the cascade! India starts moving troops into our territory -- not settler pairs! If it were settlers, I would let him wander around for a while, but since it's not, we ask him to remove his troops, and he agrees.

930 (3): India moves more troops in to our territory, not out! Fortunately most of the troops they are sending our way are archers and spearmen. :lol: Looks like our first war will not be on terms of our own choosing. Paris completes horseman, starts another. One for All does the same. Lyons hurries a marketplace so it can get moving on war materiel. Orleans swaps aqueduct for Pikeman. Several of our forces heading for the south (those that are not already there) turn around and start heading back north. Our swordsman on south isle gets gold from a goody hut.

940 (4): More Indian troops move in... Aramis completes Pikeman, starts another. Richelieu completes marketplace, starts horseman. All for One completes Horseman, starts another. Lyons completes marketplace, starts horseman. Tours completes aqueduct, starts marketplace. Point du Hoc completes courthouse, starts aqueduct. India still has not declared war, but is still moving troops in. Once again we ask him to leave, and once again he agrees to do so... and his troops leave this time! Guess that frenzied troop building rush convinced him to back off. :) We offer him a spare dye for free to keep him happy until we can get our army built up again. (Maybe :smoke: but WTH, we weren't using it anyway.) We trade Education and Furs plus 80 gold to the Japanese for Engineering. We also complete research on Music Theory and start Invention, which we will get in 10 turns at a slight deficit. I figure as soon as someone discovers Chivalry and trades it around a bit we can buy it off them, and we need to get to Leo's and then gunpowder ASAP. Orleans swapped back to aqueduct before Pikeman finishes. Athos swapped to JS Bach's cathedral - it'll be done in 18 turns. Porthos would be done in 15, but then we would not have anyone building up for Leo since Athos would be done University placeholder long before then. Porthos can build Leo once we get Invention, or we can swap Athos and Porthos at that time if it's important. Our swordsman on north isle wakes up some barbarians in a goody hut!

I'm pretty sure the Romans and Japanese troops wandering around in Burma are simply exploring. Has anyone traded them a world map? Once we get a couple more settlements in the area so they are out of places to go we could probably see what we can get for a world map and ask them to leave...

950 (5): Our spices for gold plus ivory deal expires... and now they want 7 gold per turn. Well, ok, we need those spices. Next time around, after our dye gift expires, we can maybe give them dyes and ivory for spices. Our swordsman that woke up barbarians defeats them all without a scratch and becomes elite. India starts moving their armies into our territory again. Paris completes horseman, starts another. Milady de winter completes Pikeman, starts another. Bescanon completes harbour, starts aqueduct. Maginot hurries temple so it can start on walls.

960 (6): One for All builds Horseman, starts another. Maginot completes temple, starts walls. Once again we ask Ghandi to get his troops out, and once again he complies. This will give us enough time to hurry walls in Maginot. Our swordsman visits a goody hut and gets... maps. :p

970 (7): India once more marches its troops into our territory... they also have a lot of triremes sailing around our shores. Paris completes horseman, starts another. All for One completes horseman, starts another.

980 (8): The Greeks want Engineering or they will go to war, or so they claim. I laugh in their face, and find that they're bluffing. :) Our relations go down to cautious, so I give them 50 gold to keep them polite. We've got enough worries right now with all these Indians wandering about our territory... Aramis completes Pikeman, starts another. Richelieu completes horseman, starts another. Milady de Winter completes Pikeman, starts another. One for All completes horseman, starts another. Lyons completes Horseman, starts another. Are we seeing a pattern here??? :hammer: Maginot completes walls, starts... umm, courthouse?

Ok, Maginot now has walls as well as 5 veteran Pikemen. The Indian attack force has 5 archers, 5 spearmen, and a warrior or 2. Shall we *not* ask them to leave this time and see if they attack? Or maybe they'll try to move further into our territory, in which case I can just ask them to leave again...

990 (9): Well the Indians didn't attack, but they didn't withdraw either. They're now advancing towards Rheims, but we can outmaneuver them easily enough since we have roads in our territory and they can't use them. They also have a couple horsemen menacing our borders. Nevertheless, we ask them to leave and they comply. A territory map swap reveals they only have 5 cities larger than size 6, and their largest city is size 9; as well our military advisor says we have a strong military compared to the Indians, and an average military relative to everyone else. This brinksmanship with the Indians is really to our advantage since we can surely outproduce them, but it's not without a cost since we can't develop infrastructure while it continues. We can probably afford at least another 10 turns or so of buildup if necessary, however. Paris builds Horseman, starts worker since it's pop-maxed. Our swordsman opening up a goody hut finds more barbarians! We're 0 for 5 in finding useful stuff in goody huts on my turn and I don't recall seeing any more around...

1000 (10): Paris completes worker, starts horseman. All for One completes horseman, starts another. We trade Engineering and Furs to Russia for Astronomy. We trade Engineering and Horses(!) to Persia for Banking. I would sell Engineering, Banking, or Astronomy to Japan, Rome, or Greece, but they all seem to be broke. :lol: We're still the only ones to know about Music Theory, so most likely no problems getting Bach, and we're 4 turns away from Invention. No-one's started the Observatory yet. No-one's researched Chivalry yet either.

If all of India's mobile forces are on our border, we should have enough troops now to start an offensive if we don't want to wait for (more of) a tech advantage, so long as we keep up with the reinforcements. Once we have our gems online (got 4 workers on that starting next turn,) we will no longer need Indian spices. We could also trade for Russian wines or Persian incense now that we have Astronomy.

Several improvements that were needed in the mainland are nearly ready so we can start shuffling more workers down south. Keep in mind that our forces down there are mostly for show since the bulk of our army is in the north, however, so don't send too many unless we can afford some troops to escort them.

EDIT: A thought... perhaps the Indians are trying to move their stacks of troops through our land to their southern colonies? If so that's a laughably inefficient (not to mention dangerous :) ) way of reinforcing those cities...

EDIT: Another thought, there are a couple wonder-able techs about to be discovered (esp. Economics, but also Navigation) so we probably want to start Paris prebuilding another wonder (and move a horseman back into the city since it's empty right now.) We can start it out on Copernicus and swap to something else as we discover it, or just keep it on Copernicus if we so desire; I'd guess that the other wonders are more valuable however.

Up next: Charis!

Monseuir Charis... mon ami there are problems. The Indians are showing utter
disrespect for Milady, and wipe their muddy boots all over our land in
a way unbefitting all that is good. We must either wage war, or make preparations
to be ready to do so as soon as possible!

The son of Athos demanded that an immediate census be taken...
Throughout the land, 31 cities (12 cities and 19 towns actually).
The unit support cost could fund several third world countries, 128/turn.
That's OVER four units per town, really quite impressive. Composed of
24 workers, 1 Warrior, 2 Spears, a bloated 33 Pikes, 14 swordsmen, 18 horsemen,
4 galleys, and... our glory... 32 Catapults! (One per city and one extra,
very well done)

What does our Military advisor think?? We're strong compared to India, and
average compared to Greece, Japan, Russia, Rome and Persia, *all* in Republic.
Pasteur science says we're technologically advanced. India's best unit is
the Swordsmen, everyone is quite polite with us.

"But sir... doesn't India's being BEHIND us in military and science AND
being polite with us mean they mean us no harm? Aren't they surely just
passing through?? Shouldn't our efforts go to colonizing that wonderful
gold/game/iron/cattle/fish Island to the south of glorious France??"

The military advisor points out that where you can eliminate the threat of
a second front, you do so. Period. With Indian territory in French hands
we have no fear of dual fronts, and key... we can then focus all of our
glorious but SLOW artillery on ONE front. If we must shift them or react
fast, this is not good. He cynically noted that even if casualties were
massively high, that would just jettison the old (warriors, pikes, swordsmen,
horsies) and make room for musketeers and knights and cannons.

This is the plan put before the King's desk for review and acceptance...
1. From Milady stage a MASSIVE attack on Madras and Delhi, and if possible,
take the whole area.
2. Kick the Indians off the west coast of OUR jungle
3. Send FOUR settlers to the deep south island and SIX to the other Penninsula

His close friends thought this preposterous, and asked how it could possibly
be done, fighting so many fronts? Simple... all current production focus
on the new settlements, and win the offensive war with EXISTING units.
Send the excess obsolescent defensive units to the islands. They have
foolishly brought a large weak regiment to defile Milady, which we shall
punish! "But sirs, what about the jungles?" "Fear not!! I have a vision of
a great and wise leader who will someday before long carry out a program
of Whip and Scythe that will clear the jungles of disease somehow!!"

A New decree... "Let No More Pikemen or Swordsmen be Built!"
(Not a real decree, just a choice on this set of turns for me)

1000 AD (0) - More massive changes than I would normally make, but bear
with it as the Great first War begins! Richelieu, OneForAll, PointDuHoc,
AllForOne, Bessacon, Leon, to Settlers, Tours and MonteCrisco to Caravel,
Dijon to Catapult, Milady to Horsemen. Western Galley wakes up to shuttle
units from Bane of Bombay to, well, uh... Bombay! Movements of troops?
About 1 Horse, 8 Cats, 2 Pikes. Ok, NOW we start to talk to India, before
the REAL troop movements begin

That huge stack they have on OUR land which sticks its manhood in the
face of Milady? It's on a hill... Those 5 spears, 5 archers and 2 Warriors
are told to leave AT ONCE! They do, without apologizing to Milady or admitting
their error! They back up onto weaker land, and we pounce!

Now we talk in earnest... That expired "Peace Treaty" that you stole for
free... now you must pay to keep it. The fee is Pune, Ganges, Indus and
New Bombay. We WILL have those cities, whether as a gift or by force.
The choice is yours! "NO! Unfair!" he sniffles! He has made the choice, I'm
afraid Gandhi has crossed the Maginot line.

WAR! :tank:

Our troops pour out of Orleans, Maginot and Milady like cheap California
wine! We take to the defensive posture on the mountains, and we step on
the hill overlooking the beautiful Milady. Then we descent on that "Stack"
of theirs.

Yet the first battle takes place in the south. A conscript Swordsman of
ours had been fortified agains a treacherous Indian archer in the Jungle.
The punishment of his sword was strong and swift! Our first battle, and
our first victory, upgrading the conscript to a regular!

Now the real troop movements begin. The earlier 11 were warmups. 26 men
rush into the field, chanting... "All for One! And One for All!" They
descend like rabid fraternity brothers at a rush party upon the keg that
is India!! Our Catapults fire their first shots... they shoot...
They SCORE!!! :hammer: First shot connects on a horseman guarding a
worker in the mountains. The next two shots on spearmen alternate, hit
and miss. The next action is a blur, but at battles end, we have lost
2 horses, but defeated 2 horse, 4 spear, 2 warriors (Our Pikes even got
in on the action when it got down to warriors defending)
Would you believe no promotions? :(

Cod Piece and Ville de Baillaine fret about the loss of Ivory and we must
entertain them (or pay 40 gpt to slide luxury up). Sadly Porthos as well.
(Why on earth is there no quick indicator of "I'm going to revolt next turn!?")


1010 AD (1) - One hour and dozens of moves later, I start my first turn :D
Cities that have just finished units start horsemen, which did so well
in that first round of combat. An Indian ship shows up near Louis the Mad.
Russians and Persians start Copernicus (in St Petersburg and Susa.) That's
the only AI wonder building going on, and it's very early for them. Good.

At the end of last round I was so bummed that I cleared a pile of defenders
just to leave alone 5 naked archers on the grass. Well, hehe, rather than
take the offensive, they circle around in a loop on a road and ended up next
to my BIGGER stack! :lol:

Louis the Mad shows why he is so named. He sends the catapults high up
on a mountain and scores two hits on a Indian galley passing by!

A pike in Marseilles moves out into the open to be within one move from
the THREE cities emptied out in the madness that is known as the
"Insane Milady Charis Vengeance War".

Round two of fighting starts. Artillery shell the horses in the mountains,
now scared. This saves the life of our own horsemen who slay two.
The carnage on the spearmenless stacks is brutal, we slay 1 horse, 5 archers,
losing... none, with 2 retreats. ONE horse gets elite. The rest moves on Madras.

1020 AD (2) - Greeks jump on the Copernicus bandwagon. The catapults again
save the day in the mountains with accurate shooting! Artillery bombards
Ganges, Bombay, and moves on Madras.

The first Indian city falls... the Ganges. Do we capture or raze it.
Out of pure respect for the sacred river (and so our horsemen have somewhere
to take a bath), we keep it. We will keep these four which were settled on
OUR coast, as that is rightly our land!

Back up north a swordsman kills an archer and becomes a vet. (We were
building non-vet swords??!) We arrive at Madras. A horseman is about
to attack.. "Don't be daft man!!! Wait for backup!! There's a catapult of
death just one turn behind us, hold on!!"

The Indians dare to try to settle the 'chosen' Penninsula of the French
Sahara! I hope they brought a defender, cuz our elite swordsman on the island
is ready to dish out some punishment! Somebody send me a catapult!!!

A look at diplomacy screen. Whoa, what's eatin' Alex?? He's lookin hot!
Oh, maybe because we have dyes and Ivory he needs? "Can't be done!" "Huh?!"
RoP? He wants Dyes for it?? Well... if not mid war I would pass, but this
should improve relations greatly and keep peace 20 turns. OK. Indeed, he's
one SMILING puppy now on the F4 screen. Japan looks slightly miffed. We
surely don't want war with him right now. We have furs, he has wines
(what kind of irony is that for France, that we seek to import fine
Japanese wine, lacking any of our own?!?) He wants Music Theory for that
trade. Cough. Sputter. How about 10 gpt instead? OK. Now he too is quite
polite, and we have more luxuries. (Cities readjusted: Porthos, Balaines,
AllForOne)

1030 AD (3) - With the new (cough) exquisite Japanese, four "We love the
Musketeer days" are fired off! Catapults start to rain death upon Madras.
They also reveal info! There are three spearmen, each injured after 3 of 4
shots hit. One dead to horse, then two, now an archer defending, also
falls to a horse. Madras falls! We keep this city of 8 (for now) with
Aqueduct and Harbor intact (and a 'virtual' Barracks and Granary from
our SunTzu and Pyramids). We start to starve the city down. Lahore or
Delhi next? We're just too close to Lahore to pass it up, and it would
leave us flanked not to attack there.

1040 AD (4) - Persians want an audience, you show me yours or something.
Uh, no thanks. (We can get a lux for 11 gpt but don't need it right now).
We lose a horse in the field to a horse, and retreat one to an archer.
Town productions swing to horsemen. We learn Invention and race to Gunpowder.
We can get it in six if I decimate the treasury, but that would besmirch
my already treasury-accused name. 11 turns is better

On the plus side, Porthos is all over that! Leo is ours in just 5 turns
Skirmishes outside the cities as the mighty catapults creep forward.

1050 AD (5) - On their turn two horsemen move, one attacking and just barely
losing to our vet horse. A spear of their runs screaming mommy back to
Delhi to try to defend it. He sees 4 cats heading down the road there...

On the hill above Chitagong, a sight arose that was monstrous to the fearful
people of the city. A giant rock of doom came careening down the hill, from
the newly arrived catapult. With a great cheer, horsemen and swordsmen
followed up these shots. They would need more pounding, however.

In the penninsula.. a goody hut? Jute warriors :eek:

Ah wait, an Elite healing horsie in Milady was fortified. He wakes up,
Charges to Chitagong and... takes the last defender, an archer. It's ours.

1060 AD (6) - Two horsemen in the field die, they got out ahead of their
catapults! But the Indians leave vulernerable archer and horse now.
Japan is on the Pennisula too it seems. (Our swordsmen fended off the
barbs easily)

Lahore is shellacked, and loses some citizens. Twice. :hammer:

Paris is considered for Copernicus, but... i) we're several turns behind,
ii) we could use the horses it's cranking, iii) we're facing strong cities
in competition, and if we miss by a few we'll have no fallback.

1070 AD (7) - On their turn, our swords defends vs a horse and becomes elite,
only to die next battle to a second horse. In the jungle our explorer
sword defends vs an archer. Catapult Cove is founded on the penninsula on a
nice fish/fish/horse spot. Ah, neat, same continent, so it "comes with"
granary and barracks :P

The temple of Indus is destroyed! (Does that turn it into an autoraze city?)

Bombardment starts at Delhi, and what a hit. There goes the Library! :hammer:
Ka-BOOM, a miss, then there goes the University!

Uh... Porthos... hello? Two turns from Leo and you get THIS unhappy?? Is
this... war weariness? We've just started!? Asking the peasants reveals...
yes. Two unhappy peaceniks 8-\ Just Porthos right now. We continue starving
Madras and Chittagong. I fear once we stop they'll flip back. We need
to sack Delhi soon!

1080 AD (8) - Bryansk is founded by the Russians on tip of our jungle near
Avignon and Grenoble. Mid round we lose an unprecendented two horses
in the field. A *clear* indication they outran the support of the glorious
catapult!

Lahore sees another drop in pop due to bombardment, and Delhi also sees
their defenders get hurt. The city is seen to be smoking. Temple of
Bombay destroyed! If AI Gandhi had any sense he would be begging for
peace right now!

He doesn't... an Lahore falls.

1090 AD (9) - Oh, NOW he wants to talk?? He offers 19 gold and two PUNY
cities for peace. "You're not listening!!!! We're about to sack
Delhi!! Forget it bub!"

Leo's is completed in Porthos. :hammer: It starts a much needed Cathedral,
maybe followed by a Library ;p

Russians are the only ones to switch wonders, now after JS Bach. We're due
to complete that in three turns in Athos, hopefully on schedule!

Library of Bombay is toasted. Then citizens are killed (oops)
Two batches of Delhi citizens are likewise slain. BTW, the Indians seemed
to have finally run out of knights to toss at our fortified Pikemen!
Our two elite horsemen are rehealed and race to Delhi.

1100 AD (10) - The Romans want to share world map. (Must be curious what's
up in India ;p) Just in case you don't know about island, no thanks.
Various cities start to return to infrastructure production, although
those could be construed as Musketeer placeholders ;p
The Greeks *start* Bachs (hehe) Colosseum of Bombay destroyed (ouch!)

Bombay is captured. (And kept lest the AI just found there.) It's now size 1.
Four captured workers escape via boat.

Comments/thoughts...

... Their main tactic is a miniswarm of horses. Aren't you glad we started this
BEFORE they learned about elephants?!
... Bach's is due in two turns.
... After Gunpowder, several good choices. Time to crank Muskets :hammer:
... I'm exhausted, it's almost 5am. If anything wrong, its due to brain
dysfunction at this point. Should be fun turn next anyway.
... Other than mentioned, no diplomacy done. You might check diplo and tech
situations.

Good luck (Jaffa?)
Charis

Musketeer Sirios raises his glass :beer: in toast to the military preparations and conquests of the last two leaders. Charis got some ancient-ish catapult action in there after all. :)

Looks like you made good use of that army I built up for ya! :hammer:

I was suggesting Copernicus in Paris not so much to get it, but to build toward something else. Even if someone else did finish Cop first, you could switch to Palace placeholder easily enough.

Thanks :hammer:

Ah, Zed, if you were the military prep hound, that's what made if feasible. As it was I was finding myself "A pikeman! A pikeman! Why can't I find i single spare pikeman??" Having one pike stationed at the center of three cities ready to run into one if a ship lands is not a tactic that will preserve the homeland well. Fortunately India was pressed SO hard at home they could spare not a single unit for couterattack. Let's just say it's good we didn't have Japan a step away directly on our other border. Even the *threat* of a two front war would have foiled it. The best part here, if we can not just press back but wipe out India from that corner of the map, is the lack continguity of our lands, and no second front. (Even if we lose the jungle or an island temporarily.)

Time will tell if the settler rush was just in time or was foolish division of resources. There are now about 2-3 settlers in Porthos and two ships due to pick them up, for us to head down quickly. We won't be the only ones on the island, but we can lay a stake. It's not that the cities will be powerfhouses, but more to deny an AI from undisputed reign on a large new section. (I think now two settlers may have been more appropriate than four)

Both Chivalry and Chemistry/Metallurgy gain a lot from Leo. Is a trade possible, we could use them NOW?! :P

The 'artillery nature' of the variant game was precisely why I pushed this battle. It went well, AND it showed that:
- One artillery *per* city, not one artillery *IN* each city is the right rule unless you're looking for a much much bigger handicap. We sent about every available unit to the front battle(s), rather than have them gathering dust at home. (Zed was this your suggestion? good idea)
- Not being allowed to attack a city that isn't hit that round with artillery fire is a fun rule! It requires a THREE-fold combined arms, where defense and artillery whack the cities, fast units clear the path and go after in-the-open units, and also 'weaken' foes. It also requires a big attention to supply lines, which are historically a huge part of military successs.

Some 'nuggets' I learned from this:

- When carrying out an artillery invasion, having many *defensive* units are key. They need to guard the supply lines as well as the attack square. Also the AI will counterattack you with its best attack unit if you're in the open. That's folly with horses on fortified pikes.
- You do need fast units too, to kill the 1 hp horses that remain from these charges. A half dozen 'got away' due to lack of horses and it was frustrating. (Hence the big horse production push at the end)
- I would HATE to sit on the receiving end of this punishment. Slow meltdown you can do nothing against, as your universities and colloseums fall and your pop goes from 10 to 3.
- Having a large artillery stacks cuts down your losses tremendously. It also lets a "small force" take a medium town with no losses. Be patient and wait for a turn where all the defenders are the ones taking the damage, then and only then strike.
- Artillery can turn no-win situations like going after mountain units very do-able.
- As you go, take out any big cities off to the side of your main path or face a very wide exposed supply line.
- Starve the cities you take or raze them. I'm very happy Madras or Lahore didn't flip. The pressure had to be intense. Don't leave a massive garrison, but perhaps your 'healing' troops as they cycle through.
- I found myself less bothered when an obsolete unit died than when one with a long upgrade path did.
- If pressed, on a really good round of defenders taking hits from artillery, the 'defensive' units actually get to (gasp) fight on offense (This is *REALLY* good news for our musketeers, btw, they WILL be viable as a city-taking force)

The 'next' war will be cavalry and cannon and musketeer. Similar strats, different units. After India is crushed, I urge folks not familiar with artillery to take the 1000 save file pre-invasion and try it for themselves. If anyone wants, I can upload the save file at the point in 1000 where I had changed dozens of productions, moved dozens of units and am about to make the first attack. Then you're right in the hot seat ready to...

:rocket:

Charis

PS I'm just way, way too AR. I agonized over every move and attack, taking gobs of hours for those turns. I think it really reduced the number of troop losses, but I can't do that every time in every game being in so many SG's right now ;p rbd7 is like that every turn, so I hope things stay quite on other fronts (lol, as I think about it rbd3builders is ripe to explode with battle, a game named infantry can't be far from battle, saxons are mid a double-AI takeout, and the action in 6 is frantic and tense. Mrs C is gonna kill me for staying up so late so much, I got barked at pretty good this morning :eek: If Civ3 multiplayer ever comes out, I warn you... don't play me, you'll die of boredom.

Oooh! War! :ar15: Catapults! Faster, Pussycat! Kill! Kill!

I should be able to play tonight :)

Edit: or I could, if there was a save file...

Darn, forgot to attach the save... :blush:

Here's the turn for 1100 (also emailed to jaffa)

-- Charis

Okay, done 5 turns tonight, and think I'm going to pause here and finish off tomorrow.

Also, I have a Great Leader. Do we have a plan for what to do with a GL? Rush-build the Forbidden Palace somewhere? My first thought was to build the FP at Milady, but Milady would only take 20-something turns to build the FP normally, so we wouldn't really need to use a GL there. Would the FP be better down in the jungles, or in soon-to-be-captured Indian territory? Or should I use this leader for an army, so we can get the Epic and Academy?

I'd venture to guess we want a FP in India. Lots of roads and good infrastructure already there, so it wouldn't take too long to recover that region back to a good status if we could eliminate the corruption -- in Burma, clearing the jungles will take way too long, and it's less defensible due to distance from our best cities and proximity to potentially unfriendly neighbors.

Army/heroic epic can be done with our next leader, and there aren't any great wonders we *really* need right now (though Adam Smith's would be nice, we can build it normally no problem.) FP is way more valuable than either of these, IMHO.

"Our next leader" may not come without the Epic. I'm near the end of Apoly5 and, with a militaristic civ and a lot of warfare, have not gotten a leader. Since we KNOW we will be into much more warfare, I'd vote for the Army approach. Three knights (do we have chivalry yet? If not, then... the THREE MUSKEETEERS! :D ). Get the Epic, and use the next one on the FP, once we are sure of where we want to build it.

- Sirian

WTG Jaffa! :goodjob:

I was rather sad to see how FEW promotions we got with all the fighting done so far with the French (and other non-mil civs), after playing Japan and conquering the world via 3 GL's.

The "Three Musketeers" Army just sounds Soooo appropriate for the theme of this game. And it's practical too! They would be unassailable on defense, and with their improvement over Musketmen, vs the defenders we're seeing, would be an offensive weapon too. The Epic of the Three Musketeers :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

And yes, it would give us MUCH better odds of getting antoerh leader in the many many turns of combat that lie ahead for us.

As for where FP? In India, maybe Delhi. After we wipe them off that subcontinent, starve the cities, the infrastructure and improvements there will let them grow quickly. Building a courthouse followed by the FP is doable.

Charis

Very well then, let's go with the 3 musketeers theme. :shotgun: Of course, we also need to make sure to save an Indian town or two so we can get our army victory in this war, not the next.

My view is that an FP in India would really help us nail down our tech and production advantage just in time for Steam Power and Industrialization to blow the game wide open, so the sooner the FP gets built the better. I don't know that the heroic epic and military academy will really be as useful in comparison... I suppose the faster promotions is valuable at least, though I doubt we'll see many more great leaders emerge even with the epic, and we're already past the point where we have a lot of wonders for them to rush. But, since we're in variant-land anyway, it's form over function, and I have to admit having a 3-musketeer army is great form for this game!

In a surge of patriotic fervor, the ultra-violent Pussycat Party sweeps to power in the nascent French Republic.

0) 1100AD The Pussycats send some old sad man they found rotting in a dungeon somewhere to handle the diplomatic situation, while they pursue the elimination of India.

Trading. Rome pays 4 gold/turn for a RoP agreement. Trade Ivory + 200 gold + RoP for Persian incense. Russia pays 4 gold/turn for RoP and 15 gold/turn for gems. Japan pays 2 gold/turn to renew RoP.

Reduce entertainment tax to 0%. Porthos needs to run an entertainer and a tax collector. (Hmmm. Six luxuries, but only four happy citizens and one content. Why isn't the abundance of luxuries converting that content citizen to happy? How are the happy-face and content-face effects applied, anyway?)

Japan starts on Bach's Cathedral. Persians start on Bach's and Smith's.

1) 1110AD Our glorious catapults bombard Delhi.

Everywhere is happy except Porthos, which now needs three entertainers. What's up with that? Did Porthos get our entire population of malcontent peaceniks?

My, what an abundance of settlers we have.

Our solitary horseman defending Madras fights off an Indian horseman and becomes elite. Woot!

We build a Cathedral :) Persians start building Smith's Trading Company (again).

2) 1120AD Our glorious catapults somewhat ungloriously miss 3 of 4 shots on Delhi.

Porthos can now scrape by with just two entertainers. Japan starts building Copernicus.

We discover the secrets of Gunpowder!

3) 1130AD We bombard and assault Delhi, but do not quite have enough horsemen in range to take it this turn.

We have, it seems, just one saltpeter deposit on our territory, and that only barely (near Dijon). Some peasants are rounded up to construct a road.

4) 1140AD We take Delhi with an elite horseman, and create a Great Leader! Napoleon is born! Delhi is razed. Our southern forces assault Pune.

5) 1150AD We settle on the island of Madagascar and capture the jungle city of Pune. Our military effort in the south is now temporarily halted by a lack of roads.

6) 1160AD Our catapults destroy a harbor and a temple at Bangalore. Musketeer Mines founded to secure a second source of saltpeter.

7) 1170AD Saltpeter online! Toulouse founded on the ruins of Delhi, securing 3 sources of spices. Persia pays 22 gold/turn for spices. Kept the other spare spice as possible trade for tech later (when the price goes down for Chivalry/Economics -- at the moment, only Persia has them).

Porthos finishes marketplace and overflows with happiness :) First (and, at end of my turn, still only) musketeer trained at Bane of Bombay.

8) 1180AD We exhaust our one source of saltpeter!! Zut alors! :eek: Fortunately, it reappears underneath Aramis. Our catapults bombard Bangalore, Calcutta and New Madras.

9) 1190AD There's a pair of workers shuttling back and forth between Bombay and Bangalore which get recaptured every turn. It's not worth us committing forces to defend them, so every turn the AI sends out a horseman to capture them, then we kill the horseman and retake the workers.

10) 1200AD We capture the island city of New Madras.

Aramis is temporarily on food shortage to complete its bank this turn.

Persians have Chivalry and Economics, but not Gunpowder. Nobody else has any of those three. We will get Chemistry next turn (going for cannon-tech, and hoping we can buy some of the techs we're missing).

We're 7 (I think) turns from building Copernicus. I wasn't really intending to go after it -- it was one of those 'okay, I'll figure out what I really want to build here later' and then never did, decisions.

Napolean is still hanging about with Milady. You may draw your own conclusions as to what they're up to :)

Sirian next

:shotgun:

Again, excellent turn. Glad to see the move to attack was a good one. :hammer:

1180AD We exhaust our one source of saltpeter!! Zut alors!

:eek:

> Fortunately, it reappears underneath Aramis.
:lol: Wow that would have sucked otherwise. Ironic,
Aramis was starting to seem the weaker of the three musketeer cities by a long-shot, but now it has a special claim to fame!

> We're 7 (I think) turns from building Copernicus
Thumbs up. What I also like is no other nation is angry with us.
Next turn pre-start a wonder in Paris?

> Sirian next
Muhahaha! Like I shuddered for the Russians for rbd3, I now feel a cold chill for India right now. I was surprised at the capitol razing at Delhi, which gives permanent hatred, but then remembered we're trying to wipe them out. I'm not sure if they have a settler or colony somewhere, but it will have to be found and destroyed. (I would just hate to see our new Forbidden Palace revert, for example) Be sure to leave on city until the army gets its victory. :hammer:

Charis

PS Just opened up the save file and looked outside Calcutta. Enough mil units for a fair fight against the city, and then add TRIPLE that number of catapults sieging. OW!

PPS one other interesting point, look at the Histogram, Japan sure did come back from near extinction

Like I shuddered for the Russians for rbd3, I now feel a cold chill for India right now.

Ha! I'm not sure what kind of miracles you're hoping for. :) I took one look at that situation (catapults and a few horsies vs knights) and told my advisors to sue for peace. It was ONLY because of the must-do action of getting a victory for our musketeer army that I forced myself to fight on and on. Yes, I preferred our situation to that of India, but this is one main reason why I shy away from ancient warfare: its pretty dicey trying to fight a war with no production behind you. Just ask Japan (in real life).

Well, at least I got us that Musketeer victory. Here's a peek of them taking down a unit of packaderms.

EDIT: sorry, this first victory was against a horsie. The elephants came one after another on every subsequent turn, so I had visions of elephants attacking pink musketeers dancing in my head and got it mixed up. :)

:lol: ok, I did have high expectations. Usuallly when I open a save file where you're mid-war I hear myself saying things like "OMG what happened to the Zulus!" "You took the Persian capitol??" "Where did Greece go, they can't be gone can they??"

"I sued for peace" wasn't expected :lol:

Then again, did you say Knights?? Drat! It was a pure horsie vs horsie, and (cough) spearman battle where we got to pummel them first with catapults. If they've now got Knights, we're in no shape whatsover to pursue.

The concerns now are... with the captured cities so close to their capitol, will they flip? (Is making all workers specialists foolproof? I've never seen an all-specialist city flip, ever, but that's not certain it can't happen) Also, with India not gone we're not growing the cities up there and building a FP, which is a huge factor in improving our production.

That does serve to make it very interesting up there! It was starting to look TOO easy. I'm glad you got the Army victory though, woo! :hammer:

Charis

Originally posted by Charis
The concerns now are... with the captured cities so close to their capitol, will they flip?

Well, this is why I razed Delhi and rebuilt, instead of trying to hang on to a high-culture city right next to their new capital :)

We were winning when I left off, though. Even if they got Chivalry, I'm surprised they had the production base left to make enough elephants to matter.

Oh well. Making war with lugging catapults around everywhere was always going to be a slooooow process. C'est la vie, I guess :)

Next Player up: some notes for you at the end, please read.


1200AD, Inherited Turn. Wow, look at all that Jaffa managed to accomplish with just smoke and mirrors! AND he got a great leader out of it. And Charis expects me to do WHAT, exactly, with these paper tigers? My hopes are not high. I can take Calcutta for sure, but Jaffa's handed me that one. Everything else is scattered, not enough garrison to go around, no hope of significant reinforcements, and our army isn't even formed yet. Not only that, but can't upgrade any of the pikes, so all our musketeers must be built from scratch and there's only ONE on the field and ONE in production (after I rearrange). And... Charis is expecting what, again? Oh dear. :)

Uh... OK, first thing is to check Aramis, which Jaffa had running food deficit to finish its bank this turn. I reconfig to get one more food without slowing the bank. OK, next up. Our workforce is hopelessly undermanned, even with all these new Indian slaves running around. 24 units? I resolve to improve that. Our iron town below Aramis is selected, and so is the town below Athos, which is swapped to aqueduct. I vetoed most of the musketeer construction going on. I just don't hold out much hope for this war. Our weariness is already bad coming in and only going to get worse with more fighting. I resolve to have to take out Bangalore (just can't leave it there), but that's probably it. Calcutta and Bangalore, then stop. And since I know I can get most of the Indian colonies in the peace deal, I halt the push south to attack any more of them. Workers are redirected to jungle slash. Units are redirected to DEFEND DIJON. My goodness our front line city with the most valuable luxury, defended by just two weak units, crying "Come Attack Me". Not that I blame my predecessors for this -- I can see how bad empire production is -- but I'll do all I can to ensure its security. It's the one domino that must not fall.

As for settlers... there are two on ships, and there are three mysteriously parked on the far east end of our continent with no ships within 1000 miles. Why are those there? Somebody's colonial plans dried up and lost in the history files? I decide to use them to fill in the three size 7 "Conscript" city locations near the capital, from which we can draft all the low budget units we like through later ages.

Now our biggest problem comes down to one thing: corruption. We are suffering five ways.

First and foremost, we simply have too many cities. We're way over the "optimal" number and deep into the penalty. Anything not near the capital is toasty on production, and even those near the capital are suffering some.

Secondly, we lack for forbidden palace. I COULD fix that with this leader, but I don't believe that's wise. The location we want is FAR from secure, and I don't know what people are wanting to see me do there. By my usual way of handling things, we are at LESS THAN ZERO on military -- not even enough units to safely garrison the gains we've already made. This thing is pushing it, and our neck is quite stretched. Even if I did rush an FP over there, it might not survive. I know India is strapped, but a couple of elephants could roll over us right now, if only the AI knew how to fight.

Thirdly, we are scattered. What we do have, because of our land shape, is quite stretched, and not as much is near our palace as most large pangaea maps would see.

Fourthly, infrastructure has been badly badly neglected. 1200 AD and not even a library yet in Porthos, our second city. We have courthouses in some cities, mostly where I built them or placed some emphasis. All my recent courthouse assignments not finished on my turn got vetoed, it seems, even at Richelieu where I begged for one. Waste is bad even in cities with a courthouse, like Milady, but imagine if we sold it. (Go in and see what would happen, if you are curious). And yet there are so many diverse needs for this sprawling midieval empire, I can't do everything I'd like all at once. I'll push courthouses where I can, but some other things may take priority. Just that we keep on doing that, and somehow the years tick by and nobody ever got around to it, and we've surely lost a wonder or two worth of shields, and a tech's worth of trade, by now, because of higher corruption.

Finally, our government. As good as Republic may be, for this sprawling of an empire, only democracy or (gasp, yes, I'll say it) Communism are going to do. And since we CANNOT hope to maintain a democracy through endless artillery bombardments (extra attacks mean more weariness) it seems we are destined to go Communist at some point. With this in mind, I think we ought to PLAN to do so, to build all our colonies and plan for each to be running with X% corruption. That slows down core production and removes the cashrush option, but... it alleviates weariness, adds martial law, and gives meaning to every city in an empire so scattered, we'd need five FP's to sort it out. Under communism, don't need to cashrush at new colonies because each can fend for itself, albeit somewhat slowly for new sites.

So now what? Well, I'll do my best to consolidate Charis's and Jaffa's gains in India, then get what I can out of the peace. I will make sure our army gets a win (and that means war all through most if not all of my turn). With Bangalore on a hill, I'm not all that confident it can be taken. Then again, knowing the AI, it will build elephants and rush them out of the town to attack workers, instead of fortifying to stop our horsies from retreating, and kill them all off. (Sometimes I just weep for the AI. You know?)


1210: Chemistry. In line with my thoughts about governments, and believing its already too late to help in the current war, I abandon the option to research metallurgy to upgrade to our glorious cannon. We started this war with cata's and that's how we'll finish it. My estimation of our economic state is THAT dismal. All these cata's we're paying for... it's glorious and all that variant jazz ;) but oucher, it's kowabunga to the pocket book. Banks finish in Aramis and Paris (which is cranking 20 shields at some food deficit). Those, and Porthos, are set to train muskets. For all that I believe we need infrastructure, we most definitely need SOME muskets, too.

The attack against Calcutta is a success! I capture the city and move in all available troops (except one pike to guards the cats). I spot most of the units on goto and unhook them, especially workers. New plans for those. Iron Town starts worker production, at 1 per turn. Units who just captured New Madras are sent back to the continent.

1220AD: I have two or three small towns cranking cata's at 4 or 5 shields. I have one town on our southern leg finish market and start on a musket. We now have 4 muskets in training. Porthos finishes whatever it was on and is set to Musket. That's 5. Plus one in the field. India sent some horses toward us, I use our spare horses to attack them. "Spare" in this case meaning vital reinforcements arriving. So much for that, the front line must once again make do on cardboard cutouts of soldiers. Fort D'Bartolo founded to one day serve as conscript producer.

1230AD: Musketeer "Aramis" arrives in Milady where "Athos" had been visiting her already. There's no sign of Porthos, and there's no time to waste. If I form the army up NOW, with just 2 units, it will still take until my next-to-last turn to have them in position to attack at Bangalore. I form the army, load the muskets, and off we go. Japan lands a spear on Madagascar. :( Workers from various parts arrive in the jungle and set to work. I start a new road across the mountains, to shorten travel time from the north all the way to Dijon. More skirmishes in India.

1240AD: BOMBAY REVOLTS. They chose unwisely. France mourns the loss of garrison units. Can you say "thin"?

I opt to trade Chemistry and small fee to Persia for Economics, as they are clearly researching Chemistry now, and I believe we'll be better off to grab Smith, which applies to every city, than Cop, which is just one city. We're only going to get one of the three wonders now under construction (Magellan is the third). If by chance we get beat to that one, too, it's on me, as we COULD have had Cop if I'd stuck to it. Everyone else is too broke to pay either us or them for chemistry, so it ends there.

1250AD: Sirian breaks the rule and attacks Bombay without artillery support. Bombay razed. (Jail me if you like, they had to be put down and IMMEDIATELY.) I, uh... rationalize it this way: Bombay was properly attacked with artillery support when first captured, and this was just "a minor protest" that got out of hand on both sides, ending with the city being burnt to the ground. They said, "We don't want to live under French rule!" and somehow those last three words didn't make it through the translation. :lol:

I land our first settler in the south, at the fortified swordsman. A Russian galley has been just ahead of us on the whole trip, but has not landed its settler pair yet. OOPSIE. Too late for them, I just grabbed the location.

Our major stack of cata's from the attack on Calcutta finally moves into position to attack Bangalore. Indian elephant from Bangalore charges out to slay pikes guarding the wounded horsie who razed Bombay. :rolleyes: Stupid AI, I even called that move. Sure, they killed a pike, but they could have done that from Bangalore, kept their unit IN the city and protected by the spears, and healed it up. Now it dies to my counterattack next turn.

1255AD: Indian horsie volunteers to provide The Two Musketeers with entertainment. I know they will retreat if losing, so I first attack with... PORTHOS! :shotgun: Ah there you are (disguised as a pikeman). Just in time! The Third Musketeer attacks the horsie, sends him running to the hills, where the other two ambush and crush the feeble mounted warriors. ALL WITHOUT A SCRATCH ON OUR GLORIOUS MUSKETEERS! "Our great civilization has entered a Golden Age!" -- is what it should be saying. Stupid early GA with wonders, blah.

Russians land, and we settle. Haha! They will have to wander into the desert and found a pathetic size 1 city. I land our other settler and our ships head homeward. Fort D'Charis founded to one day serve as conscript producer.

Artillery bombardment at Bangalore fails. Wounded elephants slain outside the town.

I decide that we must have settlers to replace the destroyed Bombay, and I'm going to put two cities in its place. I swap both Chitta and Lahore to settler (using up their 20 turns of saved shields) and rush them at lowish cost, but now temple progress is reset to zero.

1260AD: Artillery bombardment at Bangalore works better, each spear is wounded once. It's now or never, and I decide to press our attack with five horsies on hand. One is lost and then we prevail. Bangalore razed. (We don't have the garrison to man the cities we already have. I'm regretting not razing Calcutta, as the Indian capital moves to Punjab, putting ENORMOUS pressure on Calcutta.

I rushbuild a settler out of Toulouse to replace the destroyed city. This will give us solid hold in the region, and Toulouse looks like the best FP site to me.

Dijon finally reinforced enough not to be holding up a sign saying, "Free Gems! Attack us Now!" Milady is rumored to be behind this increase in security near the mines.

An elite horsie and our musketeer army attack a sword and spear escorting a settler around Calcutta. (Settler? Stupid AI, it's like a drunken kid chasing girls, led around by it's URGE to reproduce at any cost. Heh). Two more slave labor for us. Still not a scratch on our army. The Two Musketeers.

1265AD: Indian horsie invades near Chittagong, and we have NO fast units in the area. Elephants invade toward Madras. Muskets built on my turn in Paris and Aramis finally reach the battle front. One attacks an elephant AND DIES! How unglorious. I have to use our army a third time to win this fight, putting them on another nonroad square.

I end up having to use PIKES to attack the India horse in the north. First one from Chitta attacks, and it drives the horse away, then another from the town south of that (Lahore?) attacks, and finishes it off. Folks, it doesn't get any more thin/desperate than using pikes on the ATTACK. If that had gone badly, we'd have had some problems up there.

I move the major stack of cats and leftover attack units toward Karachi, leaving one pike and one horse at the site of razed Bangalore. Settler moves into position.

And now it's time to decide how to wrap this up, as I have this and two more turns, and that's it. I believe I must make peace on my turn, as I'm not sure the next player would know how to milk the peace terms to fit with the things I HAVEN'T been doing (like attacking any more of the colonies).

The pressure on Calcutta is so bad, I decide it's not worth guarding. I send the entire garrison, complete with one cata that arrived from goodness knows where (Jaffa had it on goto from some distant production site). This force marches on Punjab, and can just barely attack on my turn. My best case: Calcutta doesn't flip while unguarded, and I raze Punjab and the capital moves to the far north and the pressure is eased.

1270AD: Indian elephant from Dacca WALKS into undefend Calcutta, recapturing it. Oops, didn't think of that possibility. I only have one horsie in range to attack! Not good.

Two options: 1) Abandon attack on Punjab to go back to raze Calcatta for sure. 2) Gambit.

I chose option 2. Calcutta garrison presses on. Lone horsie and Porthos (now in full musketeer regalia, he has thrown off his pike disguise) is the only other unit in range to be able to attack NEXT turn, my final turn and do-or-die on retaking Calcutta. I am betting a lot of France's future on the ability of one horse and one musket to slay one fortified elephant. Our army, with Aramis and Athos in it, are too far away and not on a road!

Our forces move into position overlooking Punjab and Karachi. Karachi WILL fall to us, of that I am sure. Punjab looks iffy.

I check war weariness and IT HAS GONE OFF THE CHARTS. I have to run through and assign entertainers left and right. One way or another, this war must end on the next turn. I'd end it now, but not with my forces in position to attack three vital Indian cities.

1275: India charges two more elephants into our territory, one beelining for Madras, the other near our army. I first attack Calcutta, with vet horsie. Horsie drops Elephant from three to two, then dies. It's all up to Porthos. He attacks. He loses a hit point. Elephant loses a hp. Elephant dies. PORTHOS BECOMES ELITE! Calcutta razed! Phew.

Cats rain on Karachi, its spears reduced to 1 hp each. Cat rains on Punjab, fails. Heh. Karachi captured, 4 resisters (yikes). No problem there. Got 2 vet horse, 2 elite, and 2 vet pike, overlooking Punjab. Vet horsie attacks, takes 1 hp off of target, retreats with 1 hp left. Vet horsies attacks, dies with no damage inflicted. Elite horsie attacks, WINS with 2 hp left. Elite attacks, WINS with 1 hp left, city razed.

Our meager leftover units mop up the last two elephants, then I talk to Ghandi. We ask for all his colonies, but he says "No Dice" to Bombay (Bombay! The nerve of him) which has saltpeter on a desolate little island south of Karachi. Heh. OK, so we take Dacca instead, and all his colonies, plus his pathetic treasury. He won't give up Chivalry, not AND with Dacca, so we take Dacca.

PEACE IS ESTABLISHED.

I then trade Engineering, Music Theory and a small cash fee to Ghandi for Chivalry. (Engineering?? Heh).

India has five cities left.


!@#$! smoke and mirrors. A little more bad luck and this could have gone way worse. Bombay revolted because I couldnt afford to leave more than 2 units there, and if I had waited for Catapults to retake it, India would still have about 10 more cities than they do now. After that, no way I wasn't going to raze any other major city I got. I only captured Karachi because it was small and far enough away from Indian capital that I'm sure we can hold it... WITH a proper garrison. It's one thing to take a city, and quite another to hold it. Thus I "let them retake" Calcutta and then razed it on my second chance. Yet if I had razed it the first time, I'd probably not have gotten to Punjab in time, so I rate this as "miracle" outcome, and doubt I could duplicate it. Even my mistakes broke well for us.


Some advice to next player: we MUST have a temple in Dacca, NOW, or it may be lost. It's a low low pressure site with size 2 cultural border, but very high risk with its borders pressed in like that. Because the city was given to us in peace terms, its citizens are OURS, not theirs, so don't starve them! Karachi is another story, suppress resisters and starve them brutally. To get the temple in Dacca, you'll have to run no science for a turn. We're that strapped on cash. We have 5 turns invested into Democracy at high rate, and are about 73% of the way there. Yet we can't revolt until Smith's is finished, so... it won't hurt us in that regard. These gains in India have been very hard won, and they may evaporate unless we secure them.

No use rushing temples at Chitta or Lahore, that wouldn't ease the pressure on them at all.

I have founded two replacement cities in the southern area and the third settler is in position, just plop him down. There are two more sites to grab. I have rushbuilt a settler out of Lahore, and there is one settler moving toward Milady. The two sites to grab are the former sites of Punjab and Calcutta, the same tiles. The Calcutta site is more urgent and also needs a rushed temple (thus another round of no science, to pay for both temples). These are NOT captured cities at risk of flipping, but OUR cities at negligible risk of flip if we get them border breathing room and park several units in each.

I have blocked the roads against the Indians in case they rush a settler out there. Don't move the blockade units too soon, or India will just grab the sites back and some of our gains will be lost.

We need courthouses and banks and libraries in a bad way, in the heartland. Especially courthouses, even Paris needs one now, as we have so many cities, corruption is just creeping in on us. We're actually going to want to put priority on Communism over Medicine/Sanitation and build Police Stations by the bundle.

Lots and lots of stuff to check, manage, and handle. Somewhere in there, Greeks built Cop and Russia got Magellan. Some things that were leftover from previous actions but that I saw no use for or had changed, were just left in place. Troop shuffling and lots of consolidation and reorganization are in order. We have control of India now, if you can get the last new settlements over there operational and insulated from flipping.


- Sirian

Excellent job, Jaffa, Sirian :hammer:
On the latter, I really enjoyed the story. The tension was palpable :P

And ok, ok, I was clearly smoking weed to have had expectations that exceeded reality to that extent! :smoke: Then again, I had no idea Elephants were coming. It was a shocker you did as well as you did.

> Units are redirected to DEFEND DIJON. My goodness our front
> line city with the most valuable luxury, defended by just two
> weak units, crying "Come Attack Me".

For the love of all that is good...

... SAVE THE MUSTARD!!!!!!!!!!

> As for settlers... there are two on ships, and there are three
> Somebody's colonial plans dried up and lost in the history files?

Uh, oops. I made but it's easy to see how they got lost in the shuffle. (And partly while I ask in one thread am I writing too much ;p) At the time they were made there was a window of no competition in both the pennisula and the island, as well as no aggressive foe. Alas, they started pouring in looking to reproduce RIGHT then, and with our distance, chances to splatter ourselves and take the whole land mass went poof. Good use of the leftover settlers anyway, never hurts to have one on hand.

> I decide to use them to fill in the three size 7 "Conscript" city locations near the capital, from which we can draft all the low budget units we like through later ages.

Too bad can't draft before Nationalism and get Muskets! :P
I like this idea after seeing the Conscript cities in rbd3.

> Finally, our government. As good as Republic may be, for this
> sprawling of an empire, only democracy or (gasp, yes, I'll say it)
> Communism are going to do. And since we CANNOT hope to
> maintain a democracy through endless artillery bombardments

Hmmm... hadn't pictured that, but tis very true. (Can we call it Musketeerism?! :hammer:) I'm pulling for a bit of protraction anyway, and Communism will (cough) help that.

> 1210: Chemistry. In line with my thoughts about governments,
> and believing its already too late to help in the current war, I
> abandon the option to research metallurgy to upgrade to our
> glorious cannon.

Remember only musketeers can fire the intricate glorious cannon, so rushing to that is useless (with only three gunny seargeants in existence)

> 1240AD: BOMBAY REVOLTS. They chose unwisely. France
> mourns the loss of garrison units. Can you say "thin"?

Ack!! Bombay's Bane has something to live for now :P
Just curious... were the citizens there working or all entertaining?

> 1250AD: Sirian breaks the rule and attacks Bombay without
> artillery support. Bombay razed. (Jail me if you like, they had to
> be put down and IMMEDIATELY.) I, uh... rationalize it this way: > Bombay was properly attacked with artillery support when first
> captured, and this was just "a minor protest" that got out of

It's flat out obscene that your garrison force sits idly by, nay defects, without any warning or hope of preventing it. Consider this a valid exception, and re-do if needed in the future. (also as you know from rbd days, as long as there's a good "rationalizatoin" and its truly not the norm to ignore things, tis no problem) Our Frenchmen are not sickly chained to rules, they just have an irrational love of artillery and Musketeers! :hammer:

> Fort D'Charis founded to one day serve as conscript producer.
:hammer:

> Folks, it doesn't get any more thin/desperate than using pikes
> on the ATTACK. If that had gone badly, we'd have had some
> problems up there.
:blush:

> Two options: 1) Abandon attack on Punjab to go back to raze
> Calcatta for sure. 2) Gambit.

He's gonna pick 2. Don't even have to know the details...

> I chose option 2.
hehe

> I check war weariness and IT HAS GONE OFF THE CHARTS.
Phew, just in time.

> PORTHOS BECOMES ELITE! Calcutta razed! Phew!

There's our next GL, post-epic. Oh, in about 500 years when it's done and we're production-ready for another war. Assign that man as governor of his named-city :P

> PEACE IS ESTABLISHED.

:hammer: Good agreements! The French are of course more comfortable having knights to assist the glorious Musketeers and their cats.

> India has five cities left.
Given the chance they would as soon raze our great cities as eat a firey Punjab Vindaloo!

Way to go!
Charis

Wow, looks like we're hanging on by a thread here -- not in terms of we're in danger of being eliminated, but we're in danger of losing control of the situation. It seems to me we've been trying to do too many things at once: build infrastructure, train troops, found colonies, go to war... back on my turn I was building troops up because we were low on military strength, and now we're back in the same boat, with the added problem of falling behind on infrastructure.

Here's a somewhat radical thought.

What is our goal in this game? Conquest -- NOT Domination. What's our biggest problem? Corruption, corruption, corruption. Why do we have so much corruption? Primarily, too many cities, too far away from the capital. So...

Suppose we get rid of a bunch of our more useless cities -- use them to build workers (which we need anyway) until they're depleted, sell all the improvements, and then sell the cities themselves to civs so far away that they'll be useless to them and impossible to defend? We pick a region where we want to build a FP, and hold on to everything near there, plus any cities we need for resources (and a way to get those resources back home, say via port) and give everything else away -- moreover we could give it away in a sort of patchwork quilt that ensures the AIs will be competing over that territory, rather than coming after us.

Advantages - we can get our empire back to a more manageable size, which makes it both easier to defend and more productive. We stop wasting money rush-building and maintaining city improvements in cities that will never pay for themselves -- I can't imagine how much this has cost us already! We improve global relations between ourselves and other nations while increasing tensions between the AIs. It makes it easier to manage everything that's going on in our empire by virtue of having fewer things to manage. It allows us the option of swapping to Monarchy rather than Communism when we eventually get into permanent-war mode.

Disadvantages - We will eventually have to retake or destroy those cities. Also, we may wind up inadvertantly giving away a crucial resource and have to trade for it or fight a resource war to get it back.

Thoughts, anyone? Should we do this now? Wait for Steam Power so we know we're not giving away coal? Not do it at all? Vote for the Rhinocerous Party? Inquiring minds want to know!

Not in this game but elsewhere that thought has crossed my mind, Zed. There's just something that goes deep against a deep ingraining (Civ2??) that just giving up cites is 'bad'. I'm still wrapping my mind around the corruption factor. For some reason too I don't see it as applying (as much?) to the AI, that if they're covering most of the map, I'm in trouble. (If nothing else, than for conscription purposes)

In this particular game, good point on the resources. If we can hold out til Steam Power we might avoid a big boo-boo.

It seems a time for diplomacy. We really don't have anything others are wanting badly, and we're on good terms with all but India. If we keep them friendly, we (and they) will have a time of peace while they ramp up production. But yes, we should stop pouring shields and gold into the potentially dead-beat cities. I'm too often guilty of that mistake. The ones near the home-of-FP are another matter (witness Cleveland, Baltimore, Seattle in rbd3, tiny lumps of clay too far to protect one day, powerhouse garrisons the next)

In general, if it IS the right thing to do to punt on cities and stick to core and FP area development, it speaks volumes against expansionism, at least expansionism where you gear your core cities to support the colonies instead of vice versa.

We must get some more practice in non-sprawling games ('infantry' is non-sprawl, but we've got the main island all to ourselves). I think when one of these winds down it would be good to start one where #cities is capped at the exact point where "The people say we should build a forbidden palace".

Charis

Heh, once we finish one of the ongoing ones, I was thinking of something like this:

We are the (French) Swiss -- keepers of the peace, dealmakers, the world's bankers. We are a proud people, and we have never been successfully invaded. But, our culture's foundation is, we abhor human suffering! We will not resort to forced labour under any circumstances, nor will we do anything that could result in mass loss of human life -- even those in rival civs. Of course, being as we have a proud military tradition, we recognize that some must bear arms and defend the others, and that those that bear arms are often put in harms way, but all civilians deserve to be spared!

What this means:
1) No whipping
2) No attacking, bombarding, or razing enemy cities

What is allowed:
1) Rush-buy with cash
2) Draft
3) Culture-flipping enemy cities, Propaganda
4) Pillaging terrain improvements
5) "Freeing" (capturing) enemy workers/settlers
6) Destroying enemy military units

Details:
1) Small map, not sure about landform or climate yet.
2) We play as the French. Opponents are all militaristic (Romans, Chinese, Zulus, Japanese/Aztecs, Germans.)
3) No space victory. All others enabled.
4) Monarchy or Emperor, depending on how much of a challenge people feel up to! :)

I'll wait to start it until people have some time...

Well, before giving too much territory away, consider -- this is where our only source of saltpeter was (before it moved to Aramis). It's only in our territory at all because Dijon already had an expanded cultural footprint...

As I’m sure you know, the “Many Cities vs Few Cities” debate has been going on for a while on the boards now without a definitive answer.

As you might be able to tell from some of my games, I’m in the “the more cities the better” camp. I really don’t care if it is going to take them 80 turns to build a harbor, that’s just 80 turns I don’t have to worry about them. I want them for the military buffer zone, I want them as jump-off points against rivals, I want them as forward bomber bases, I want them on the coasts as air/sea defense stations, I want them to hog land and increase the chance of getting resources, and I want them as AI-magnets when things go badly. There is nothing more satisfying than to watch the silly AI use 24 ships and 10 turns to reduce your coastal outpost to rubble, thereby IMPROVING your bottom line 8-). It is rather amusing to let the first wave of the AI offensive wash over you with no response (because the first 10 cities they could get to are meaningless to you), then launch a nasty counterattack from your outposts right at their capitol while their pants are down and their units are stuck in your territory. In games where I have been forced to stay with just my core cities, it quite alarming to realize their tanks can be on your core cities in one turn without warning, and that their bombers can reach your good cities (in my solo games I even keep my core cities out of bombard range from the coast).

That said, I do recognize that both approaches can work very well, and neither one is “right” or “wrong.” I've been meaning to try a "few Cities" game on purpose soon, too, to try that apporach out first-hand. Who knows, if I do it by choice (instead of being forced to by game dynamics) I might find out I like it better 8-).

Ah well.

I ought to be able to catch my turn tonight.

--Cy

ps—I don’t think you can sell cities in this patch.

Yep, Jaffa, I hear you. It's entirely possible we could give away something we'll need later, especially if we don't know where it is... so I agree we probably ought to wait for Steam Power and make sure we keep our coal. By then Nationalism will be right around the corner and we don't need anything to build Riflemen, so if we lose our saltpeter then it won't be such a big deal. (We'll want to upgrade our catapults first if possible though.)

What about Oil and Rubber? Well, the plan would be that by the time we get that far down the tech tree, we ought to be in a much better position to fight a resource war if necessary, having rails, factories, size 13+ cities, police stations... of course to make sure we have the ability to build all those when the time comes, we need to build up on other vital infrastructure NOW. OTOH, we can't ignore military either...

How's about this: rather than build infrastructure at the edge and military in the center (as would normally be the case) we reverse it? We could make sure our core cities (including the area around where the FP is going) are up to snuff, while postponing city improvements in favour of military & workers at the edges until we get Steam Power and decide what cities we're going to keep. Sure, we might not get much out of them, maybe some workers and a few catapults, BUT if we're considering selling them anyway then why waste the effort of building stuff we might be selling later? Besides, we have so many of them it just might add up to something significant. And of course any cities we know we're going to keep for luxuries or resources (like Dijon) might be worth building some critical infrastructure in, at least to the point where they can reasonably be used as defensive bases or permanent drafting stations. The AI considers unit count when gauging military strength, not how good they are, so workers (which we need for our rail net), and glorious but cheap catapults (which are not weakened by being built in a city without barracks and are readily upgraded to Cannons when we get Metallurgy anyway) are the perfect units to pump up our numbers and make us look tougher than we are. If we do this then we probably want to delay getting Metallurgy until the last tech out of the middle ages so that we have the opportunity to build more catapults.


Speaking of riflemen, Charis, when you said you want Musketeers to handle the artillery... it doesn't look like we will really have that many of them by the time we get to Nationalism. Can one Musketeer operate an unlimited number of artillery? If so, then we can use them in big stacks to overcome that limitation providing we have at least a few Musketeers built by then, which ought to be doable. Otherwise we will have to dress up our Musketeers in Riflemen uniforms or something...

EDIT: Cy, a good point about buffer zone -- we could consider keeping up to Bastogne in the south since it's a convenient choke point, even though the cities down there are mostly garbage right now. I believe that it was originally intended to be our last border city at the time it was created anyway. :) As far as jump-off points and bomber bases go, I expect that the couple key cities down there we would be keeping would fill that role admirably, especially in the late Industrial area when we get airports. About selling cities, my impression was that post-patch you could sell/trade them away but not buy them, but I haven't tried it recently so I'm not certain. Certainly we can give them away if nothing else.

Must be something about playing the French that encourages folks to step up to the cafe, put their feet up, pour a glass of wine, and talk strategy :crazyeyes:

You can't sell cities or have them involved in any trade, post-patch, but you CAN give them away for free. That gives the benefactor a free defender too. A nice brownie-point device, but not what we had in mind.

The AI does "total count = mil strength" is a good reason to pump workers and cats, I've been using that idea in other games, and it's kept foes from thinking me fresh meat even though I have one stone age defender at most in each city :smoke:

Blast those riflemen! They're going to wreck Musketman production permanently?? I hadn't thought of that. :( You guys may not like my suggestion: skip Nationalism ?? Infantry and Mech Inf require rubber and thus unconnected cities can crank out Musketeers. An alternate solution which is more 'powerful' but adds the risk of losing a key 'resource' (ie, musketeers!) is to
get riflemen as normal, but... you risk being able to take over no more cities if/when musketeers run out! It's doable, and a very odd twist if the game goes long. Ah wait... paratroopers are the other 'special' unit. They would appear about the same time we would find it hard to find more musketeers.

Zed, it's one Musketeer in the stack with the artillery, not one per cannon ;)

Cy I tend to think and play more like you suggest, but... there's something nagging at me that I'm adding a ton of headache for no benefit and I should shift gears to corruption management. (Is that something starting with the letters S..I..R.. ?? :P)

Rule reminder:

- No city may be attacked on any round until artillery support has fired on the town (catapult, cannon, artillery, radar artillery, cruise missile or any bombardment)
- The only exception is that Paratroopers do not require artillery support.
- Paratroopers are suggested to be made and used, and should pillage key supply
lines and special resources as a key part of their mission.


Ok, scratch the no-Nationalism (unfortunately the draft comes from that too, so we'll never be able to draft musketeers) idea, but... we do need one Musketeer per city BEFORE Nationalism is learned. And those will have to last through the game.

That gives us three avenues of attack:
- If we preserve our Musketeers once Nationalism shows up and attack in large stacks, we can go as normal
- If we lose them all in a debacle, we can go after coastal cities as normal as long as there is naval bombardment to start the attack on that turn
- Coastal cities can be attacked and taken with paratroopers without support.

Those are fun options, imho :hammer:

Also, let's definitely do an upcoming RBD game where the number of cities is small and with a 'core radius of no corruption' focus. If that were this game, Milady and Bastoge would be and stay at the far frontier, or become/be-next-to the Palace and FP sites.

Hmmm... mid posting this I see I almost missed Zed's post:

The Swiss certainly do well with the "This is my space. I need no more space. But you keep the heck out of my space" controlled area concept. The downside is a French-repeat, and the no-whipping at all is like rbd6. How about Swiss as Greek? (Commercial / Sci, Hoplite) If military instead of commercial go Swiss-Roman. Heavy on the land mass, you want to be surrounded by these military guys, not off on your own island.

> 2) We play as the French. Opponents are all militaristic (Romans, Chinese, Zulus, Japanese/Aztecs, Germans.)

Hehe. Fitting.

> 4) Monarchy or Emperor, depending on how much of a challenge people feel up to!

Gonna see how rbd4 and 7 go, but I would think we're now an Emperor capable crew :p (Especially with Hoplites at start)

Charis

Originally posted by Charis
Blast those riflemen! They're going to wreck Musketman production permanently?? I hadn't thought of that. :(

Hmmm? I thought UU's were always available for production, even after 'superior' units became available.

Speaking of playing with fewer cities, one of my ideas for the next batch of games would be a 5-city-challenge (probably emperor, cultural and diplo victories disabled). I've also been thinking of some sort of army-focussed game (following in the fine tradition of the infantry game and the artillery game, maybe insisting on the use of armies for offensive actions. The trick with that would be getting the first Great Leader early enough).

About the Swiss, I had imagined French because I wanted them to be at a slight handicap vis-a-vis culture. We could go Greek but we'd have to disable cultural win as well as space.

And Jaffa, a 5-city challenge would be ok by me as well -- I presume we'd go for space in that one with diplo and cultural off the table.

About UU obsolescence, the jury is still out on exactly how that works, but I'd plan that it'll happen & let it be a nice surprise otherwise. I don't remember anything about needing a Musketeer for each city though in the original rules, just an artillery... and I thuoght we ditched the artillery garrison concept. Is that a new rule? If so, it'll be hard to make that many Musketeers before Nationalism, probably unfeasible.

Eeeep!

The board was down/unreachable (at least to me) tonight early, so I did some other things.

By the time I picked up the file, it was getting close to midnight. No problem, I thought. We're at peace. All I need to do is resort out the military, found a gew cities, and normalize production. I'll be done in an hour.

Then I opened the game. Holy smokes! My first TURN is going to take an hour just trying to get up to speed on what is going on.

Sorry folks, I'll have to get it tomorrow night.

Cy

np Cy, i think ALL of the games are getting very interesting and taking a little extra time these days. Heck if you've not read the forums you may have an hour of reading before your first turn :P

Good luck,
Charis

(PS, for Zed or others interested, attached is the 1000AD pre-war-start file)

What is our goal in this game? Conquest -- NOT Domination. What's our biggest problem? Corruption, corruption, corruption. Why do we have so much corruption? Primarily, too many cities, too far away from the capital. So...

Suppose we get rid of a bunch of our more useless cities


I think there's one factor you are overlooking here, Zed. That's the rabid expansionism of the AI's. Their prime mission in life is to grab land, as control of territory represents the bulk of scoring in Civ3 (early finishes represent "bonus" score, a separate category). Any land they are allowed to grab means more cities that must be taken by force in a Conquest scenerio.

On a large map as this, Ancient conquest is simply not an option. I doubt Mideival is much of an option, either, although I suppose an endless horsie whip-factory and enough determination could pull it off. (The AI's are not at all skilled in defense).

Number of cities is only a prime factor for cities more than X distance from the capital or FP. Cities close enough are going to be strong producers, regardless. From a strictly efficient building point of view, you want one "core" with a 2 to 3 layer radius around your capital, and a second "core" not much overlapping the first, where the FP is built. Only... if you push that more than 4 lengths away, its too corrupt to build it on its own, and you need a leader to rush it. Decisive planning in regard to the one or two cores is crucial in regard to the outcome.

RBD3 is a great example. I applied all my lessons learned in this regard to spot a GOOD second core close enough to build, strong enough in its land to do well quickly, isolated enough from rivals to be seized without a fight, and far enough away to nearly double our total productive land. I made a DISTINCT effort in RBD5 not to add that kind of input. I didn't draw up a "colored dot" plan, didn't suggest much, and have only recently started to offer analysis about our situation. Why? Bunch of reasons, all of them intended to be constructive. :) I think without the weight of stopping to build all the cata's to keep in line with the rules for this scenerio, that most of the problems you observe would be less severe. Just that under such a rules burden, there was less margin for inefficiency. Overall, I think we've done pretty well.

So back to the AI expansionism. Ideally, for a non whipped-to-death conquest scenerio, time would be best spent building two cores, then halting expansion to nurture those. Get a lead, then roll over the opposition with industrial or modern units once rails are online. That would seem to fit what you are suggesting. That plan MIGHT have worked, but IMO it's too late for that now. To give cities away will NOT gain us anything. We can have only about sixteen cities on a large map before corruption starts to eat away at the fringes. Yet... without more than sixteen cities, you don't HAVE fringes to worry about being eaten, so what's the point?

The one thing you said that I want to fasten on is this:

We stop wasting money rush-building and maintaining city improvements in cities that will never pay for themselves -- I can't imagine how much this has cost us already!

This has been my recent nit on Charis, as what I see as his (only?) major weakness in strategic design. He invests into colonial lands while they are still quite insecure militarily (the investment would be lost if we were attacked), and he invests too much into cities that will never ever become productive.

BUT... Zed, that's the only real problem with more cities. The cities do not, in and of themselves, represent any real drain. A lot also depends on map size. Small maps, you get one good layer around your capital. That's it. Standard maps, 2 good layers. Large or huge maps, 3 good layers. It all has to do with distance. Corruption by distance is a factor of percentage of global diameter away from the seats of power. A small map, a city just six tiles away has the same "corruption distance" as a city 15 tiles away (or thereabouts) on a large map. Large maps inherently allow for more cities JUST on the distance factor, not counting the number of cities problem.

Cities in the first layer around a capital could go without courthouse ever. Cities in the second layer can go without a courthouse if you STOP EXPANDING at that point. Cities in the third layer need a courthouse, and will show signs of wear even so -- and yes, these will suffer some as more and more cities are added, but they are unlikely ever to drop off into "useless" on a large map. 4th-layer cities are still good on huge maps, on large they will slowly bleed away as more cities are added, but should never fall into hopeless. Beyond that, forget it, 1/1 material.

Milady de Winter is a 4th layer city. I didn't found it to be productive, I founded it on a hill as a defensive outpost, to say, "French lands start here", and to buffer Aramis. Think about that. Milady was NEVER intended (by me) to be productive in the way a core city is. It was just intended to have enough to fend for itself. Complaining that it's down to half production would be ignoring the essential truth that it's just too far from home to be counted on. Sure, if we gave away 2/3 of our cities, it would gain back A SMALL PORTION of its productivity, but it would never look like Paris or Porthos, which are first layer -- unless the FP is built near it, like in Madras.

But that's the other point, no clear "this is a great choice" site ever came up for the FP. It was either "someday, in India" or "Someday, in the jungle". Well someday still isn't here. I know where I think it ought to go, and I paved the way on my turn, but even that's still not as good a site as Chicago in RBD3. Sometimes you just have to make lemonade.


Unless you are specifically playing for space race victory, there's no reason not to grab as much land as possible -- on a LARGE map. Small maps are quite another story, as even first layer is "far enough away" to be significantly hurt by too many cities. Think of RBD2 and how sad even second layer was. But large maps? :rolleyes: Forget it. Not even worth considering. Large maps mean sprawl, and lots of cities. Even space race needs lots of cities. Note that you don't see OCC tales from large and huge maps. OCC needs SMALL maps, generally, to stay competitive in tech. Large maps take longer to research, requiring many cities.

For a game with Space enabled, sure, build two cores, and beyond that, just what you need to grab any resources that you can. (You can trade for some). The one thing TRULY bad about more cities is that your costs go UP for acquiring trade goods from others. A 5CC on a large map would be able to buy whatever they needed on the cheap, and trade one for three, and such deals. But... they'd not be able to afford RoP's, so their diplomatic status would be chillier. If all victory options are on the table, you HAVE to consider the possibility that the AI's might launch before you could conquer them.

For this scenerio, though, domination and space are disabled. Cultural might as well be (have you SEEN our sad culture?). That leaves diplomatic (a quick out, or a threat from the AI's) and conquest.

Conquest means land. Every bit of land we own is a resource in a conquest game. That's land somebody else doesn't own. If we give it away, we will just have to go back and take it again, possibly at high cost. Giving ANY land away, in this scenerio, is absolutely the LAST thing that we should be doing, IMO. My vote would be an emphatic No to that idea. If we wanted to pull back and go for space, sure. No problem. But we don't, and can't.

On the other hand, spending cash to rushbuild in 1/1 cities is not my idea of wise fiscal activity. All things being equal, I would choose Madras as the site of the FP. But... things are not equal, and after much pondering on my turn and extrapolating down several avenues of possibility, from Calcutta to Madras, to Toulouse, to building a special city in between those three sites, I came to the conclusion that we should just build it in Toulouse.

Thus every last penny I spent in the region was specifically going into first and second layer cities in our second core. THAT, I deemed, as worth even halting research for two turns to secure the area culturally with the two temple buys I recommended, and rushing settlers as I needed to do to make it work. If the FP were then put down in the jungle, yes, my expenditures there might be considered frivolous... but even then, I wouldn't say so, as the cost saved in not having to reconquer the land would make up for it. As the Indians would just plunk down new settlers in all the gaps where I had razed their old cities... and we COULD NOT hold on to the current cities without continuing the war, and that would have taken a revolt back to monarchy to prosecute any further, as weariness was exceeding unhappiness from overcrowding. (Meaning MORE THAN DOUBLE our usual amount of unhappiness, and threat of any single city left to go into unrest taking down our whole government).

You just do not wipe out whole civs under republic/democracy without rails and blitz warfare. You can to take it in chunks: make some gains, give them 20 turns of peace, while you consolidate, then make more gains. On and off, off and on, and in that environment, taking half of someone's homeland is difficult to consolidate. I usually do it by having 10-20 units per city on garrison. Uh... two garrison units isn't going to cut it, as Bombay proved. Nonstop warfare requires a warmongering government.

Yet you to get a tech lead you have to be in democracy, so... considering that we've already fought the war, we just have to suck it up and move on.

No more rushbuilding down in the jungle, though. That's the money pit, if the FP is going into India (where everyone seemed to want it to go). All those cities down there... they cost no more (really) to defend than to mount the same defense closer to home. Rails are almost here, and on this FLAT land, the swamp is the most likely place for coal to show up. Or maybe at Milady.

I do think the expansionist pendulum swung too far away from keeping up with our core, but there are gems and dyes in that jungle, too. Would you have us sitting down there with two cities surrounded by AI colonies with their units all around us? Is it not better to have an actual front, and border, behind which our control is not much contested?

The WORST problem we have with corruption (after the FP not being there) is lack of courthouses in some of our core cities. *ahem* :) I set out to remedy this two turns in a row only to come back and find no courthouses in any number of cities on my next go. Those orders got vetoed. And what was built in their place? I don't recall, but it looks like it was either settlers or military. I've pulled the focus back to the core every time I've been up to the plate, so any lack of cohesion in our center falls on the shoulders of others on the team.

Even so... please don't give our cities away. :) It wouldn't be worth it. Instead, jump on the "fiscally responsible" bandwagon and tsk tsk at anybody overspending on vanity colonies.

Now if you veto the plan to build the FP in India, you can ignore everything I suggested. But if you agree that India is to be the second core, then you might want to reconsider what I did there, why, and just how important securing it actually is. For if indeed the FP goes there, everything there is first and second layer, and what BETTER place to be pouring our resources?

Good luck, whatever you decide.


- Sirian

Charis: I always just presumed that when you said "Muskets must accompany" that you mean foot soldiers. Infantry. What sense would it make for a people to deliberately shun modern muskets (rifles) just so more of their soldiers could die? Do you realize we would have to completely forego not only Nationalism, but also rubber, ALL paratroops and marines and infantry, ALL tanks, to comply with the "It must be Musketeers" rule? Or else, as you say, simply declare that "we lose" if they run out.

Apparently I misread that, or perhaps you didn't look that far. Wasn't the artillery the focus of this scenerio? Have we ended up somewhere else, perhaps in an evolutionary cul-de-sac, with the hardcore notion of actual Musketeer units being required even after they are rendered obsolete? My opinion would be that such a restriction is not compatible with so large of a map. Requiring artillery for every city attack, and foot escorts for any stack of artillery is one thing. This... is something else.

If you must know, there were times when I had a horsie with a stack of our cata's on my turn. Units were SO SPARSE I may even have had unescorted cata's moving around. If a cata can be sent on goto and not need an escort every second of every hour of its journey to the front line, surely you can see the possibility of it getting into action without an escort around. I don't think I did that, but my thought was mainly on just playing, and the only rule I really made any effort to follow was "attacks on cities must be supported by artillery".

I did devote one cata to following the army around, but that only rendered it useless, as it would end up left behind and bait to be stolen if I used it to attack, with the army then attacking and moving on. So... all it did was follow the army around like a puppy dog. It was... useless. I did use it once, I think, then had to "waste" a unit protecting it instead of sending that unit on militarily prudent missions, that turn.

You're the scenerio boss for this one, it's your baby. What do you want us to be doing?


- Sirian

1) No whipping
2) No attacking, bombarding, or razing enemy cities

What is allowed:
1) Rush-buy with cash
2) Draft
3) Culture-flipping enemy cities, Propaganda
4) Pillaging terrain improvements
5) "Freeing" (capturing) enemy workers/settlers
6) Destroying enemy military units

Details:
1) Small map, not sure about landform or climate yet.
2) We play as the French. Opponents are all militaristic (Romans, Chinese, Zulus, Japanese/Aztecs, Germans.)
3) No space victory. All others enabled.
4) Monarchy or Emperor


Zed: space off the table, and without the option to even attack enemy cities, conquest and domination also off the table. That leaves culture or diplo. Culture, I'm sorry to say, is a matter of just building as many wonders as you can in your capital and then lots of clicking next turn. The single-city cultural victory is thus "viable", but for me that's pretty much a BTDT option. (Been there, done that). The nationwide cultural victory is, frankly, not an option at all. I can't see it ever happening, as even if you build that much total culture, you'd need MORE THAN double your next closest rival, and this just does not happen. This option needs a lot more tweaks.

Thus... either a one-city-cultural win, or a diplo win.

I'm actually itching for some diplo scenerios, but... I've got some of my own ideas in mind (one is being played out right now in RBD7). I will probably pass on this one. Good luck with it. :)


- Sirian

Cy, I don't think it's your turn yet here in this one. You aren't following after me, are you? I was the last player to post a turn, as of this writing.

- Sirian

Well, it depends upon where you are looking.

In the original roster, posted 01/16, I was after Zed.

In the 01/21 and 01/29 rosters, I am listed after Sirian, which is where I've been playing.

Just to muddy the waters up more, though, I am going to be in a bit of a time jam today/tonight, so if Zed wants to post a "got it" note he can have this turn and I'll go after him, when I should have plenty of time.

If I don't see a "got it", I'll still work the turn in tonight (yawn).

--Cy

On Musketeers and Artillery...

The game theme is twofold, to explore conquest using artillery, *AND* to make use of units that are ridiculed, maligned and neglected: Musketeers (and to a lesser degree paratroops).

The rule is: to fire a Cannon or higher level piece of artillery, you
MUST have in that square at least one trained operator, ie a Musketeer. He would in his day also be a key combatant, but in later times accompanied by stronger infantry units as well as cav units. (They're not required just to move pieces around)

I didn't catch at the time that Riflemen would make Muskets un-makeable (un-rubber-hooked-up Infantry and Mech don't). But after thinking about it, preservation of our glorious Musketeers is an excellent added twist to the game. It's doesn't force one solution, as I mentioned three ways, including backup options if we do happen to let the Musketeers die off. If you guys are concerned it will be too hard or unplayable, I have a comment and another slight rule tweak:

Let an "Army" be able to fire artillery units as well. The army is a multi-unit force with several elements, we can view them as having a trained fire specialist as part of the team, even if he doesn't have to be added explicitly. (Although, saving a dozen musketeers for the express purpose of adding later to armies would be cool). This has the advantage too of seeing a LOT of armies around fighting. I've used "one" in the past, but nothing approaching this -- it would be pretty cool. The other comment on this is that I *do* want the game to be significantly harder, that's a key reason for the Musketeer-as-firingSpecialist too. Let's face it, in this Monarchy diff game, without that restriction, we conquer the world on rails at the discovery of tanks, and it ends like so many other games.

Even if this puts intense pressure on us and we're fighting for our lives up through modern era, that's a good thing(TM). :)

The Army-can-fire tweak to the rules fits well with our decision
to get that Musketeer Army, and build a Heroic Epic! There at the
Epic academy, we will train future armies the ways of the musketeer and how to fire the glorious artillery!!! :hammer: And so long as a musketeer shall be found alive to join the army, he will do so.

Charis

Ok, I got off work early today.

I am taking the turn right now; it should post in a couple of hours.

Or 3...

--Cy

ps to Sirian: When you give people directions, do you tell them "and take a left where the old barn used to be before it burned down a few years back"? (this is in reference to asking for cities on spots where cities *used* to be...

Cy: Go ahead with your turn tonight. :)

Sirian, re: Swiss: Well, we aren't likely to start it anytime soon, so don't make any decisions yet. The intention was that it would most likely be a diplo win (our capital will be Geneva, after all!) but it should be *theoretically* possible to win by other means... just much more difficult. :) Heavy use of propaganda and aggressive culture-flipping tactics like relocating our capital could even give us a Domination victory, at least on paper. Besides, any military campaign we do get involved in (and with all militaristic neighbors, there ought to be at least one) will be quite a bit different from the usual "take out enemy infrastructure" story, so there ought to be some interesting tactics to come out of that.

Sirian, re: Number of Cities: I try not to brush off the corruption effects of having too many tier 4+ cities on our potentially good tier 2 and 3 cities, even on large and huge maps. When I was in the Mother Russia succession game we started out with a long, skinny empire with Palace and FP at either end. At the time, we had crushing corruption in our most remote cities (tier 4+) and corruption problems in our tier 3, but our tier 2 cities having courthouses were reasonably well off. Then we conquered France and England and kept their cities, more than doubling our original city count -- and now all of a sudden our tier 3 cities were 1/1 cities and our tier 2 cities were struggling. We conquered Egypt, tripling our original city count, and now even our tier 2 cities were massively corrupted -- anything more than a single screen length away from our capital or FP (on a large map!) was hosed.

I am not suggesting that we stop at 16 cities, nor that tier 4+ cities are a bad value altogether -- it depends on many factors, such as strategic value, luxuries, resources, etcetera. Certainly Milady de Winter and Bastogne are valuable to our empire regardless of what their production levels are. I'm also not suggesting we stop investing in infrastructure in places where we expect an FP to come online (as you did in India), or in cities that we plan to use as forward bases or make into drafting stations, for instance. In fact, as regards the cities surrounding the future FP, I would definately be sure to invest heavily there, as you did. I am simply suggesting that we should be selective in what tier 4+ cities we should found/keep.

In one sense it's unfortunate that our current plan calls for Burma to be a permanent drain on our economy, but we know there's some valuable stuff there and there's potential for more. So, ok, we really have no choice but to keep those cities there that control those resources, and those we need to keep our control of that region secure. I was originally thinking of giving away some of the Burmese cities once we found out where the coal is, but that is out if we feel we need those cities to maintain security in the region. As for India, perhaps we should have left well enough alone, not invaded, and built our FP in the jungle; I was building up troops more to prevent us from being invaded than anything else, although I did mention the possibility of invading India on my turn -- besides which it seems to have turned out well enough and it did get us someplace to build an FP. That's all water under the bridge now anyway. But places like the islands in the south, which are too far away to be reasonably defensible in the first place, and will never do anything other than to contribute to the gradual shrinking of our rings of quality cities around our capital -- what do we need those for? Just to prevent the AI from grabbing them, when we can easily take them away again with a transport of tanks in the end game?

I don't really think our positions are as divergent as my take on your previous post would lead me to believe you think they are. Originally when I proposed giving away cities, if it were solely up to me I might have briefly considered swapping to a "core-only" model, but I really don't think I would have gone that far, and in any case both Cy and yourself have pointed out good points in favour of keeping some buffer room, so certainly I woudn't propose a core-only model for this game now. The main difference I see is that my experience suggests that the "shrinking ring" effect of adding more cities is more severe than what you describe in your post. Hence, we should be more vigilant in ensuring that we don't unnecessarily aggravate the matter by colonizing everything we can as we have done here, and possibly that we should take steps, if cautious ones, to ameliorate the situation as we can. Maybe there aren't very many cities that we could, in conscience, give away, without affecting our strategic goals -- perhaps not enough even to make the whole exercise worthwhile. But, that doesn't mean the option isn't worth thinking through, which was my goal in bringing it up.

I think we're in agreement that we probably overextended ourselves in our colonization efforts, and that we should take care not to compound the problem by trying to throw money at far-flung colonies with no long-term value. I'm willing to leave it at that.

Mrs. Zed has laid down the law! No more Civ on weeknights.

Well, really, it's more like "no staying up late on weeknights," but since the earliest I can even start playing is usually 9:00-9:30, that doesn't leave enough time to be reliably able to get a turn in. Hence, it looks like I will have to bow out. Good luck going forward!

Maybe I can join a new one if my turn is always on a weekend...

Zed. :( Going to miss you in these games. Maybe we'll start one up with a "wait for Zed on his turn" arrangement so you can get one in on weekends. :)

In the year 1275AD, the Learned Senate of the Great Republic of France, in celebration of the Great Victories of previous leaders and in even greater celebration of our new-found peace, decided that a big party was in order. They therefore turned to the Snail Party for leadership, as they were reputed to know much about party snacks and malted beverages. In time the new leader was to become known as Cy_Pied de Cheval, for during his term the thundering of mighty French hooves was a common sound…

Upon surveying the vast Republic of France, Cy_Pied de Cheval determined his goal:

1) To found the cities planned by prior administrations and to otherwise attempt to get our new lands in India under control and under the influence of the wonderful French culture.
2) To ignore the far-flung colonies except for advice. Not a single sou was to be expended upon them until India was tamed.
3) To build all manner of great public buildings in the heart of France—Libraries, Universities, Coliseums, and even the less-popular courthouses 8-).
4) To continue to move our migratory workers south as they completed all other jobs in our heartland so that they could attempt to civilize Burma.

And so I began.

1280. The Greeks pile two settlers into Madagascar. Oh well. I dispatch a swordsman to keep an eye on them. The silly buggars do not lock up the iron yet. We have a settler on the way. Maybe we can yet deny them. Eventually. This is a problem for a future ruler. Brest is founded where a settlement party was standing. The Persians cancel our luxury swap deal. For some reason, Xerxes is furious with us, will not entertain the idea of giving us a measly franc for our luxury, and demands ruinous prices to sell us his. I send him tennis balls instead. Xerxes remains annoyed.

1285. The Japanese and Romans start pulling all their wandering troops out of our southern lands. Evidently they have realized the age of expansion is just about ended.

1290. Despite the fresh, wet ink on our peace treaty, the Odious Indians move a military stack of 6 units over our border and next to Chittagong. I demand of the Idiot Indians that they remove their forces or go to war. They quickly scurry home. The Japanese troops that were withdrawn from our lands all return to Japanese cities and go inside towns. The Roman troops, though, fortify on the very edges of their territories nearest our border cities. My paranoia meter starts spiking. I check our relationship—polite, with a RoP agreement in force. Hmmm. I check all the AI’s to see how we are on the tech front—mostly ahead. I blow all the money saved for rush temples on upgrading all 28 of our horsemen to Knights. Sir Geoffry de Cherney is put in charge of instructing our Knights in Les Demands Pour La Joute, Le Tournoi, Et La Guerre. I keep research at a minimum to save up the money to rush the Temples. La Calcutta (at the site of Old Calcutta) is founded.

1295. The great wonder, Smith’s Trading Company, is completed. Vive la France! The Ignorant Indians camp their troops just inside their borders. The Roman troops up and leave our sight; evidently, it was just paranoia on my part. The Russians land a settler pair on Madagascar between the Greeks and us. Just for the amusement value, I fortify a swordsman directly in front of them. These two spend the entire rest of my term staring at each other.

1300. Our Greatness knows no bounds! The Heroic Epic is completed! Our problems multiply comme les lapin! Zut alors! The Indians invade again, this time with Jumbos in the stack! The Romans reappear with 3 times as many units as were last seen, and mass on our borders! There is panic in the streets! Women weep, strong men quail, and farm animals are scared! In this time of trouble, the greatest heroes of France, the Three Musketeers, appear unbidden at the House of Government to advise Cy_Pied de Cheval. They advise me to:

1) Create more musketeers! The future and glory of France is tied to these wonderful units and the awesome artillery they control!
2) Send our Musketeers to deal with the Indians. They have experience defeating the curry-eaters.
3) Send our Knights to deal with the Roman Rascals. Only they can get there in time over the long dusty roads and through the trackless jungle.
4) Send a couple of Musketeers south too, as our poor Knights, valiant though they are, just can’t seem to get the hang of our Glorious Catapults, and we will need to use them in any area that actually has roads.

This plan is put into action. The very rumor of Musketeers is enough to send the Indians packing. I start corralling workers in the south in case of trouble.

1305. Aaaaah! The Indians invade again, this time with TWO columns, one goes to Chittagong, the other, with Jumbos, sweeps behind Dacca towards Lahore. I call in their Ambassador, and slap him silly with a herring. The northern column withdraws. The other column heads back towards their border, but veers off and stays one square inside our territory. Insolent Indians! In the south, the Romans move 15 units into our land towards New Calcutta. This poor outpost has only one spearman, and is not yet connected by roads. Our valiant knights gallop towards it, but, barring a mirable visu, it is doomed. I attempt to order the Romans off our land, but, as they have a RoP, I cannot! Well, Caesar, two can play at that game. I send two knights into a square directly adjacent to the Roman border town of Verona, and dispatch another two knights to dog the steps of a Roman military pair stuck out on our desert promontory east of Musketeer Mines.

1310. India finally pulls the last of their troops back onto their soil. The Romans, in the least surprising move of the game, declare war and obliterate New Calcutta while its relief knights are watching from an adjacent square. Our revenge is immediate and forceful. The Knights I parked at Verona’s gates strike, and take the town for Glorious France! The game engine, overwhelmed by our knight’s chivalry and valor, does not auto-raze a size 1 city and lets us take it over instead. As no Musketeer is available there yet (they are still in the production queue or half a continent away), a Swordsman takes out the catapult from Musketeer Mines and assaults the Romans there! Unfortunately, I am reminded of why MUSKETEERS are required to fire catapults, as the damn thing misses. The two knights I had parked on their Roman Rears, however, close the deal. I am now faced with what to do with the Knight relief force for the former town that the Repugnant Romans Razed. The Roman vanguard is split into 3 stacks of two, all of which are in attack range. However, one is over a river on a hill, one is on a mountain, and the third duo is back towards the main Roman stack-o-doom of 9 units. Hmmm. I have one diagonal square open back towards the town of Verona that will leave me on a mountain—I take it. Let the Romans attack me. Finally, I look at the entire situation. 15 units is a bit alarming as thin as we are, but at worst Rome can only take another 2-3 buffer cities with that and take away our gems. They have the same horrendous supply-line problems that I have. There are only 3 ways this can go really nasty, (1) if a stack of 20 Legionnaires shows up eventually, (2) if India flips out and quits nibbling around and commits to war, or (3) the REALLY nasty option, if Japan jumps in with Rome. So I go have a talk with Japan, which also has cities on both sides of the Roman supply line. Hmmm, they are not too enthusiastic about a military alliance. Hmmm, they don’t have Chivalry yet, but half the other AI’s do. And yes, they are more than happy to go to war with Rome for Chivalry. Hey Caesar! Eat Samurai! Muhahahaha!

1315. India. Again. This time her entire mobile army in one stack directly at Chittagong. With a settler pair following. I’m getting tired of this. I send the Indian Ambassador a herring to hit himself with and save me the time. India withdraws. Somewhere along either now or previously La Punjab is founded on the site of old Indian Punjab. And the Romans? Heh. With a huge enemy behind their assault force, the stack-o-doom vanishes southwards and leaves me with just 6 units to deal with. These three stacks seem to lose their purpose, as two follow my retreating knights, two wander towards Cherbourg, and two look west. Hmmm. THAT worked well. So I retreat the two Knights another square, hoping for more AI weak moves, and, meanwhile, mount an attack out of Dijon towards Corfinium. This would have been foolish in good terrain, but in this Burma muck everything happens in slow motion, and I was attacking over flood plain while the Romans, though admittedly to my rear and closing, were in jungle and mountains. In other words, I thought I could get away with it 8-). My southern Musketeer orders the artillery out, and the mighty catapults rumble on, while two knight dash ahead to scout. What’s this? The best defensive unit showing is a Warrior? Hahaha! Red town? Prepare to be pink 8-).

1320. Hmmm. A lot of spots that used to be Roman Red on the Map are Japanese Green now. I think I might have created a monster. Our Mighty Musketeer gives the command! Our Mighty Catapults, erm, go “sproinnnggg”, then our knights actually do something! Corfinium is ours! Ps. The Indians invade again, I throw them out, yadda yadda yadda. I start swapping back to infrastructure from military (again)—it looks like Japan is doing their job.

1325. Startling news! India does NOT invade! Sacre bleu! Even more of the map turns Japanese green. The Romans once again lose focus, and now I am following them. Silly Caesar.

Notes for future leaders.

We’re still a Republic, though Democracy is available. Metallurgy is due in 4 turns at the current rate (+49 per turn). We have 10 more turns on our peace with India. If they last that long, I expect them to go to war then. Get ready 8-). If they don’t start it, we need to, so we can eliminate that front and concentrate our defense on the Japanese. I have some strength around the Indian border, but it is probably not enough. You’ll find a settler just standing around in a vacant spot near India. They have a settler pair ready--I have seen it. IF you can’t order them out before our culture borders close, you can use it to pre-empt them. In the south, there is a settler in Indus in case something good opens up in the current war. I have 4 Knights closing in on Tyrus. If I could get that, I was going to stop there and let Japan handle the rest. You still have 6 Roman units wandering around in Burma. If they stay split up in twos, they can’t actually do any harm, though. Of course, a stack of 20 legionnaires could show up next turn. There are two workers asleep in Dijon. I got tired of looking at a pissed off Xerxes and gave them a map, so they are now polite, but still don’t want anything to do with our Lux commerce. Our military stands at 9 spearmen, 11 swordsmen, 41 pikes, 28 knights, 16 Musketeers, 1 army, and, of course, 47 glorious catapults!

Good luck.

--Cy

oh, and the Romans named a town after me. It is on the same screen as New Lahore, to the SSW.

(preview is my friend)

Smacked him around with a herring, indeed. These reports are worth getting up early for :)

Of Cabbages and Kings.

Erm of Catapults and Republics.

This was my first round fighting something besides Barbarians, and I, too ran afoul of our Variant 8-0.

I didn’t feel too badly about using a swordsman to fire the cats; we are still in transition to Musketeers, and it wasn’t a complicated device like a cannon, anyway, that REQUIRES one. And I got a righteous attack in on Corfinium—Musketeer, catapults, etc. But on Verona, I was stuck between a jungle and a mountain range 8-). I either had to stack-guard workers building road up to it to attack it (eventually—jungle roads take a loooong time to hack out), or invoke the made-up-on-the-spot “I can’t get catapults there because there are no roads because while I was trying to build roads the idiot AI attacked” clause. I actually didn’t really think it through at the time. I tried to move cats into position, found that I could not, saw that it would take forever to get a road built, and popped the city. In hind sight, I probably should have gone ahead and built the road. After all, the hassles of dealing with artillery is what this is all about.

OTOH, I have not attacked any other Romans, instead I am playing the “do not like to attack without our glorious artillery” game and trying to draw them to a city with cats or at least to a road square. It would help if they would quit changing targets every turn…

Which brings me to Tyrus. This city, otoh, is a good candidate for waiting for a road, if the next folks are patient enough and desire the full Variant experience 8-). There are a slew of workers that were evacuated from Burma for the war doing low priority work just up the coastal road, and a good screen of troops up to keep them safe (I think/hope).

Ah well. I hereby pledge to go forth and sin no more (well, at least in regard to artillery and attacking cities).

--Cy

I too rather liked the herring smackage :lol:

Your self-catch on the rules was pretty much what I was going to say to remind folks. Bottom line, we've NOT accounted properly for the effect these rules would have on our ability to rapidly response (self included). We're overextended. Not just a little, but a lot. Good thing there was discussion of 'giving up cities' recently, they may very well be taken from us.

The attitude of "we're doomed to fail if we don't have our glorious artillery" is exactly the right mindset that should help determine what to do in rough situations. Such rationalization should not be invoked when you have a line of 9 tanks ready to crush a city, and they have to wait 3 rounds to do it because they out-ran their artillery. Units CAN of course freely engage in the field, so get creative there :P As for 'cats' by Swordsmen, yes, no problem, the Musketeer/Army requirement is for Cannon+.

We may VERY well end up losing a lot of ground in Burma. I've not looked at the map, but would have to suggest strong thought given to: focus. Focus on India, wipe them out up there. Get our FP going and built securely in Toulouse. ONE FRONT. We just can't manage lacking superiority with multiple fronts. Even if we lose ground in Burma, it's not permanently lost. I can see as a possibility where we have a painful herring-smacking war with India up North and win, but end up falling back to just outside of Bastogne. Consolidate, our new single front consists of Bastogne or a thin strip of land. Build up, get ahead, focus on the core, then when the right moment or tech comes along, we drive. March downfield with an unstopable running game and take back Burma. But take it to KEEP, no other front, no splitting of troops. Then peace and consolidate, build up, then choose our next 'direction' and decisively take it.

I don't know India's strength or our weakness, but pulling out of the South and letting Rome and Japan got at it might just work.
I've never had a game where I willing gave up on a large tract of land, even as useless as Burma, for a time, planning to come back and fight for it only when I'm ready to hold it. (The city with the resource, Dijon is it? That might be one to fortify rather than ditch)

The alternative? If we try to send all we have down south to hold it, India grows back triple strength and we'll have a two front war later.

Comments? I'm shooting from the hip without seeing the save file. Is there a specific tech we'll need first to rollover India, or is it just a matter of cranking out enough present troops.

if the next folks are patient enough and desire the full Variant experience 8-).

That really is what I'm shooting for here! If not for restrictions, frankly this is a won game. Beeline cav and crush India in a blitz, Steam, Tanks, blitz, crush the rest of the foes, sit back and choose victory condition. That's not an issue.

This smacking reminds me of when you first take your Diablo variant up to Arreat Summit. "I handled the Foothills ok, how hard can this be?" Your firebolt-only-no-vitality sorceress gets hit so hard the impact of her skull cratering the earth almost digs through to Keep 2! You dust off, you remember you're a variant and it's supposed to be extra challenging, take your lumps, readjust your tactics... then go kick some butt! :hammer:

When you've turned the game around from defeat to victory by defeating the game superpower in early-mid industrial age using musketeers and cannons, you know you've done something :P

Charis

Impressions. (Can you tell I’m not really working today?)

The following is just my “feel” for this particular game. I am often wrong. (I’m sure I’m not the only one who has ever thought they had enough units to roll up an entire civ only to burn their entire army on the first city and end up regretting the whole business).

A lot of times, even when read the back story and carefully look at the save file, it takes a few turns to get into the “flow” and get a good guesstimate as to what the AI is up to. Here is my best guesstimate.

I think we can hold Burma as is until the Japanese decide they want it, and I also think by that time they do, we will either be ready for them or we will have already attacked them 8-). And I don’t mean hold on by our fingernails—I think the Romans are out of gas. IF the Japanese stay as aggressive as they have been the first 3 turns, we may never see another Roman unit. They have completely cut the Roman supply line. In fact, once we deal with the 6 units wandering around, we can pull most the knights out and re-distribute them. Tyrus can either be ignored or used as a “hobby”—it would only take two Knights, a Musketeer, and some cats/cannon to take it—it would not be a drain.

I think India can be handled the good old-fashioned way—Musketeers, our army, and cannon. That’s why I left most that stuff up there. They just have so few cities left, they should be easy to isolate.

My take would be to hold Burma unless it proves to be a real pita, keep a few decent units in the 4 border cities but otherwise quit worrying about it, clear such jungle as we can with spare workers, and push our roads all the way down to the border to prepare for rails and our attack against the Japanese (after India is eliminated).

I’ve recently played a couple of solo games where I ended up with HUGE empires, and this area is going to be a whole ‘nother animal under communism. In fact, where I used to disdain it, I am now a big fan of Communism, but only if I am running a really large area. True, it saps your research terribly compared to democracy, but, as we aren’t in a space race, we can handle that. If for nothing else (in my solo games), if I haven’t managed to get things distributed to my liking before then, I’ll flop to it long enough to build a FP or re-locate my original Palace before flopping back to Democracy to finish off the space race 8-).

It will be entertaining to see what choices are made.

--Cy

After all, the hassles of dealing with artillery is what this is all about.

Well... I'm not sure what THIS is all about. :) Charis has mixed some disparate ingredients for an unconventional concoction along the lines of my eggs and saurkraut sandwiches. Most everyone I've gotten to try one of those has liked it, but some look at me awfully strange.

Artillery is not, nor should it be, a "hassle". Charis got curious about my artillery comments from other games, and wondered what he was missing. Well... see the thing is this. Artillery (the real deal, not cats/cannon) has 2 space range, 2 hit point power (attacks twice on same turn), and is quite versatile. City assaults are, frankly, NOT where it shines best. You attack a unit out in the field with two artillery shots, then mop it up with one hit point left and get a risk-free win, a chance at promotion or great leader, and on to the next unit. Artillery is the OWN THEM unit not on attack, so much, as on defense. The AI's haven't a prayer of wading through a stack of eight or ten artillery backed by a couple of counterattack units. You just mop the floors with whatever they send at you. And as they send scattered units around, you scatter your artillery, too, and clean them up with ease. Artillery is the unit preservation mechanism, it's how to fight a war with fewer ground units needed or lost.

Mopping strays is one use for artillery. Cats/cannon can serve the same role, in their era, albeit less effectively due to the one space range. You pretty much sit in the city and wait for them to come right up to you, or sit on a defensive position and smack them as they go by. This is NOT appropriate to every situation, though.

On attack, artillery is what lets cavalry roll over rifles. If two artillery can hit 3 of 4 times and take a rifle down to one unit, a cav can beat it, and probably handily. So could an infantry unit. Artillery have a TWELVE attack, so they hit quite often against rifles, even fortified in large cities. Infantry is another story, if you have to take them out with artillery, you're looking at a bona fide siege.

Artillery would include all forms of bombardment, in my book. What happens when we get to planes? We planning to ignore them? Can't send a musketeer along with those. But that's where Charis's "multiple ingredients" start to muddy the waters. The sad irony is, the ONE situation in where our cata's were going up against SUPERIOR force, us with a few horsies and pikes, and a musket or two, against knights (jumbos) came on my turn. Heh, I don't need to learn what cata's can do, I already know. :) Oh well.

I just hope, somewhere in all this catapult usage, and later with the "must be accompanied" rules maze, that the idea of figuring out EFFECTIVE use of these pieces still comes through. But... I do wonder, if even when not attacking cities, that pieces must not only be accompanied everywhere, but by a specific obsolete unit, if Charis is going to come out with a better understanding of using artillery effectively in modern warfare. Since the multiple directions this variant is going in are, at times, at odds with one another, rather than blending smoothly, it definitely is happening that none of the objectives are reaching their potential. But I also figure that by the end, there will have been so much artillery usage that the chances to "get to know" the units will be there, and you guys will just have to sort it out for yourselves from the "rest" of the variant.


- Sirian

Muddy??? :( Sigh, I must be the only one this isn't muddy for.

- To fire a cat/cann/art/radarart a musketeer or army must be in square (if army has a musketeer, even better)
- To attack a city the round must start with ANY form or bombardment, artilleryl/naval/air
- Paratroopers may attack a city without bombardment support
- Must have as many cat/cann/art/radart units as you have cities (or be making them to come up to par)

This is to emphasize cat units, musketeers and paratroops.
What's so muddy?? :confused:

(And yes, if we find, or instruct other teammates, about effective use of artillery in other situations, even better)

Ionpure, you still with us? I think you're up next. (If not it will zing by Ion and Zed to me too quick :P Zed, since it's the weekend if you want it, please take it! I probably can't play a turn this weekend)

Charis

Well, those four rules are clear enough. Those aren't the rules we started with, though. :) Things have been evolving (for the better) as we move along. But even with those, I don't know where we stand on whether the "specialist" still has to be an actual musketeer unit or not. If it does, then I'd want to postpone Nationalism for quite some time, so that we can have more guys to move around to accompany the artillery.

But when I say muddy the waters, I'm not talking about lack of clarity in the rules. I'm talking about your stated desire to practice with artillery. I thought that was the prime objective? Apparently I was mistaken? Read too much into that comment? The prime objective is a slower pace of conquest? No matter, I'm not asking for the rules to be changed. The game's going along just fine and I'm having fun. :)

What do you want to do in regard to Nationalism and/or rubber, both of which may (or may not) take Musketeers offline? The unfortunate part of that problem is that we don't know for sure which way it will go. We might be worrying over nothing. Some games it does, some it doesn't, and I don't know why. Rubber we could take back offline by pillaging the tile, but Nationalism would either permanantly shut down the option, or we would find that our UU will always be available, this game. What do you think?


- Sirian

If Ionpure doesn't get it today, I'll see if I get a chance to play tonight. I won't be able to play this aft most likely.

Ok, got it, but I may not be able to post results until tomorrow. Depends on how long turns take...

I agree we need to focus on India and just go with station-keeping in Burma and let it fend for itself.

> Well, those four rules are clear enough. Those aren't the rules
> we started with, though. Things have been evolving (for the
> better) as we move along.
:lol:

> But even with those, I don't know where we stand on whether
> the "specialist" still has to be an actual musketeer unit or not.
> If it does, then I'd want to postpone Nationalism for quite some
> time, so that we can have more guys to move around to
> accompany the artillery.

Sorry if that one was unclear, DEFINITELY yes, an actual musketeer. That was from the start - the change was to add an 'army' (via GL or Epic) as an acceptable fire-team specialist.

> But when I say muddy the waters, I'm not talking about lack of
> clarity in the rules. I'm talking about your stated desire to
> practice with artillery. I thought that was the prime objective?
> Apparently I was mistaken? Read too much into that comment?
> The prime objective is a slower pace of conquest? No matter,
> I'm not asking for the rules to be changed. The game's going
> along just fine and I'm having fun.

Ah, good. It was 75% to practice artillery and 25% to use 'ignored' units. I thought them synergistic in that if you have a musketeer as an offensive unit trying to take a city, owza, you better have a lot of artillery support pounding it :P Objective isn't a slower pace of conquest, more an outcome of the restrictions. I personally hope for a slower pace, but that's just me not the rules, so that I can actually build and use a radar artillery unit. If that unit doesn't see action this game I doubt I'll *ever* make one.

> What do you want to do in regard to Nationalism and/or
> rubber, both of which may (or may not) take Musketeers
> offline? The unfortunate part of that problem is that we don't
> know for sure which way it will go. We might be worrying over
> nothing. Some games it does, some it doesn't, and I don't
> know why.
> Rubber we could take back offline by pillaging the tile, but
> Nationalism would either permanantly shut down the option, or
> we would find that our UU will always be available, this game.
> What do you think?

As you mentioned above, not going asap for nationalism is definitely required. Either way we need to get 'some' more musketeers. The 'mainline' plan is to have sufficient musketeers that you think will provide sufficient fire-team control for the rest of the game. If you travel in a huge stack and don't leave them isolated, treating them as you might a naked great leader in the field, they should be fairly durable. The 'plan B' is that if the number ever gets down TOO low, put each remaining musketeer in an 'Army' in combo with a tougher unit. 'Plan C', if we let the musketeer lineage die off completely, is to rely on fighters, naval bombardment, icbm's, and paratroopers, to carry us in the final stages. (I'm tempted to make the musketeer-fire rule only apply specifically to cannons and artilliery units, and not be required for radar artillery, to give a plan D, but I don't want to confuse people, and it might not ever go that far)

So stockpile however many musketeers we can before feeling dire need to hit nationalism, and after that just make sure they're escorted with strong defense units, and not leave them in flippable towns for garrison.

Other thoughts welcome, this IS kinda hard to gauge.
Charis

A pretty quiet turn. Some notes:

- We now have 26 musketeers, plus our 3-musketeer army. I'd be disinclined to build more in any core city until after factories are online. A couple outposts far from our capital (such as Milady de Winter and Orleans) are still building Musketeers.
- Most of our core cities are back on infrastructure, primarily University in preparation for the higher research cost of next age techs, but also some Banks. IMO it is important that they stay so until Factories become available to ensure we can continue to out-research the AI. Aramis is building Wall Street. We've been slowly building up towards 1000 gold in our treasury.
- The Romans have entirely withdrawn from our borders and most of their nearby cities have been razed. They are ready for peace but we still have about a half-dozen years left in our treaty with the Japanese. Thir cities seem to have been hard-hit by the war with Japan and are much smaller than they were at the beginning of my turn.
- The Indians were invading every turn with Jumbos for a number of years, but lately they have only been sending in a few spearmen and an archer every turn. My guess is their treasury ran out and they had to disband a bunch of units, but they could still be hiding in their few remaining cities.
- In the North we now have enough armed forces to defend ourselves. If India's military has shrunk to a pale shadow of its former might we have enough to wipe them out, but not if they still have a large number of Jumbos hiding behind their lines. India still lacks Gunpowder.
- In the South, all is quiet. We have a large number of workers building roads and clearing jungle. We founded Rennes on the ruins of our city destroyed by the Romans. There is not much danger of that happening again, they have more pressing things to worry about. :)
- We have researched Metallurgy and Physics, and have just started Theory of Gravity (6 turns.) Our scribes considered researching Military Traditions but decided against it, as war did not seem imminent; rather they preferred to proceed directly toward a new age of learning. The AIs are fairly close behind; some have finished Chemistry. Russia has Free Artistry to trade but at first-civ prices, so we haven't bothered to get it yet. A number of glorious Catapults have been upgraded to even more glorious Cannon, primarily in the north.
- Pretty quiet on the diplomacy front. Since all our trading agreements were only recently renegotiated, and since we did not want to provide the other empires with any of our knowledge, there were not many deals to make.

Zed, I'm quite glad you hopped in. I have the save file now, and should get to tomorrow night. rbd3 took me longer than expected, it's getting pretty involved.

:hammer:
Charis

The line of Jean Paul Charis came again to power, and he found...
... Musketeers! About 25 in fact, which delighted the people. The Musketeers
had devised a new piece of artillery MOST wondrous, and yet quite complex!
None save the Musketeers alone could fathom how to actually fire them. Some
mumbled about 'job security', but the meaning of this was unclear...

Best of all was a glorious army of musketeers. Aramis was on Wall Street,
the cretinous Romans were beaten and bloodied, and life was fairly good.
In 6 turns at end of treaty there might even be peace (?!)

Jean Paul could NOT help but think... four cities. Four lousy stinking
puny cities keep us worried about a second front and the stench of Elephants.
This could not stand!!

1375 AD (0) - Persia looks a little annoyed, perhaps they would like some
of our fine French incense? Indeed they would! 28 gpt worth! (Yet, he's
still annoyed. RoP perhaps? Ah yes, now he's chummy)

The last French leader d'Charis started the war with India. It is decided
that the present one WILL finish it. The very nice thing about Dacca's
boundaries is that we can be about two steps from each of their cities
without warning. Our glorious Army is dispatched to the front post haste!
We have six rounds of war in front of us, let's take advantage of it!
Hmmm... we've spent no turns on our new research yet... Mil Tradition,
Shakespeare, Newton, the advisors get asked for their thoughts...
The General of the Army's voice is loudest. He suggests full bore research
on Military Tradition, followed by a Military Academy! :hammer:
When pressed on the details of the budget, he says India will help fund
it. On further opposition, he asks if we liked being viewed as so weak
militarily that the puny Romans attacked us. Then he asked how we would
feel about Japan turning on us in 6 turns. Viva le Traditione Militaire!!
(Besides he says, we can get it in 4 rounds for 200 gold, 1/2 the increase
of the latest ivory trade) Paris, home of the Heroic Epic, would house the
Academy.

MMOT where the first M stands for Massive. 26 units surge forward!

1380 AD (1) - The Russians start Shakespeare in Moscow, the only ones so far.
We see a settler in central India. Is standing now where he intended to
found?? Looks like a decent spot, good shields, a wheat. (The only question
is, will we need it to found on a spot about to be razed?? Well... d'Charis
intends to annihilate the Indians this time, so razing will not be needed.)
The town of "Artillery Works" is thus founded.

The first shots of the final Indian war are fired by... our musketeers!
They Indians were foolish enough to move an archer and spear trio in OUR
territory next to Chittagong. The Musketeers went on the offensive and
mowed them down.

New Madras, Catapult Cove and Madagascar North are full of peaceniks and
get all mopey. "Let them eat cake!" is heard. WLTM days come to an end,
as political correctness wins the day in those cities.

1385 AD (2) - The first city shots fall on Kohlapur, injuring the defenders,
and showing they have three spearmen, period. :hammer: Two knights on hand,
so you just know who took the final shots? A M'eer! Yet a stray archer in the
city prevented its capture (that turn). Hyderabad gets the next shelling,
losing a Temple AND Library! They seem to have two spearmen defenders. Any
archers hiding? A M'eer fires and sees... He becomes elite taking out the
last spearman, and yes, a longbowman is left. One M'eer left in the stack.
He takes no damage, becomes elite, captures the city AND four workers! :hammer:

Truly the Musketeer is an elite, versatile, awe-inspirint UU!!

They're crumbling so fast our Army may not see combat?! Where on earth
did their Jumbos go?? We they *really* that poor they could not afford
the peanuts?

1390 AD (3) - The Greeks and Persians both take up an interest in Shakespeare.
Hey, are we not Shakespeare fans??

Kohlapur is quickly taken. They're down to two cities, Bengal and Jaipur.

Madagasgar North sobs over the war, uncontrollably sad. Do we rush the
temple there? The more savvy d'Charis this time learns to say no to
temper tantrums. "Starve the somgums! If they're whining that bad they've
just gotten too big. NOT A CENT to them!" Athos goes Colloseum, a possible
placeholder if we can get Free Artistry for cheap now.

1395 AD (4) - The practical secrets of Military Tradition are no know to
us. Paris undertakes to build an unparalleled Military Academie for the
training of musketeers and the art and science of Artillery! :hammer:
We get back to trying to figure out gravity. The Japanese get in on
Shakespeare too. (We can buy for 400, let's wait a few turns)

Six cannons move upside of Bengal. The first four arrive at Bengal. Fire!!
Some collateral damage makes it a size 5 city.

1400 AD (5) - Bengal. Temple destroyed, two defenders hurt. Here come the
Teers! Bengal falls with the faintest whimper. And with the army still one
turn away, we crush the last defenders at Jaipur. The harbor is still
intact. Uh oh...

No "Defeated the Indians" message. They have a settler on one of those dang
boats I've seen floating about :( The disappointed army heads to Milady
for some... uh... consolation! :blush: Bane of Bombay is frightfully upset.
Hmmmm... several other cities too. Luxury at 10% for now, peace due very
soon. In 2-3 turns with Romans, and let's just see if India lands that
Settler quick ? Look at more cities... WOW! War weariness is officially
through the roof! Madagascar North and New Madras will be riotous. So be it.

It might take too long to find that settler, better try peace.

"Refuse to see your envoy!"

(cough)(sputter)Design(cough)flaw(sputter) That's just sick. They have no
cities and no hope and are not eliminated, and they won't see us, and *WE*
get charged with war weariness??? :mad:

1405 AD (6) - Ah, phew. Now he'll see us. (They respond "India will fight on!"
to our threat we approach their (cough) cities) So I let him get off for
a mere 2 gold coins (his whole treasury) With no income, shouldn't he implode
next turn? There are a few units going back "home" that might be on medium
long goto. Massive happiness breaks out throughout the land! :hammer:

D'Charis envisions now a "Maginot Line" running clear across from Musketeer
mines in the South all the way through to New Bombay in the North. It would
take about 26 units. (Musketeer+Cannon line! :hammer:) He doesn't start
it, expecting a veto, but it's a fun idea.

1410 AD (7) - Twnety-two we-love-the-Musketeer days celebrated! The 20 turns
on Roman war/Japanese treaty is up. I drop alliance and pursue peace.
Also buy Free Artistry from Russia and start in Athos, due in 11 (!) :P
1415 AD (8) - MMOW, consolidation.

1420 AD (9) - Our 'Army' is on long goto towards Bastogne. Soon no one will
steamroll us down south!

1425 AD (10) - Things quiet down again in France.

Porthos, on Cathedral, is swapped to Newton's as we get Gravity. (With
Wall Street and Mil Academy so short to build in our good cities, do try
to let them finish). Only Magnetism to go this era. Remember to hold off at
least slightly before Nationalism to build up some M'teers. I've concentrated
on infrastructure to not let that slack this 'campaign'.

- Our treasury is over 1200 and about +100/turn at 5 turns/sci or -100/turn at 4.
- After Toulouse finishes Courthouse, consider starting the Forbidden Palace??
- Try to fill in the culture gaps (eg with Temples or Libraries) in the remaining
spots, such as the saltpeter "Penninsula". India still has some small 'gaps' too
- Hmm... if no capitol, hence no distance to capitol, can the Indian cities flip? If the Indians "land", get 'em :P
- I didn't look over the cities as closely as I usually do, I'm zonked (1:30am)

Good luck, (Jaffa?)
Charis

This happened to the LK8 crew, too. After France's forces (Musketeer-less, Lee accidentally unclicked "Civ-specific abilities" for LK8) evicted those surly English pig-dogs from of all of their cities, we were forced to sit on for TWENTY more turns of war weariness waiting for England to respawn with a city (they refused our envoys until they landed a settler). Oh, and when they landed their settler (near their old haunting grounds), 2-3 cities almost immediately flipped back to England despite being starved and repopulated. BEWARE this. Don't put ANYTHING in an Indian city that you aren't prepared to lose in a culture flip (or remove from the premises on THAT turn).

This is a really crappy flaw in the diplo/conquest system. IMO, if a civ loses all of its cities, it should be considered gone. Every unit, including settlers, should be disbanded on the spot. The only exception, of course, would be during the first few turns while you're moving your initial settler around for a capital site. But once your first city is founded, you should be forced to keep at least one city up at all times or suffer ignominious defeat right then. This would solve the problem of AIs with only a settler left wandering the seas for eternity when all the settleable land has been claimed and refusing your envoys.

Um... no. :)

Apparently, somebody in the intelligence branches were off doing a little :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: and never filed the correct reports. That simply MUST be the explanation, since I most clearly told about the island city of Bombay left over from the last assault and emphasized that they had FIVE cities left. Settlers do not cut it, if a civ loses its last city, it's dead.

Surely the report never reached the desk of d'Charis, as we all KNOW that he would not [pimp] it up and OVERLOOK this vital military detail. ;)

Oh dearie my, well at least we have ships in the area. Or a ship. At Bane of Bombay? Heh, what an Ironic name that's going to turn out to be. Going to take a few turns to sail down there, though. And must take a cannon and musketeer, too. :) Jaffa's going to get the glory of finishing off the Indians? :shotgun: Well, at least Charis did a most splendid job rolling over them on our mainland. The peaceniks will be happy, they have several more turns of something to moan about. :lol:


- Sirian

Out of curiosity, Charis, why Mil Tradition? We didn't need it for India, and we don't expect war with anyone else until after Industrialization -- we ought to be big enough now to discourage the AI from randomly attacking us, so wouldn't it make more sense to beeline for factories and give us that much more of a lead over the AI, and then buy Mil Tradition later?

Most assuredly, a civ is NOT gone when its last city is gone. If it has a settler, it lives on (perhaps with the added: 'if there is a single habitable square left, somewhere. Picture the game start, a civ has no cities) I've had that happen in a game, and read about someone else's nightmare where they were citiless and refused to see the envoy for peace for a hellaciously long time.

Could there be one more city? If so, I need to turn on colorblind help. I did look but did not see it. If it's Bombay, shame on me :spank: Part of the peace negoation was their territory map to see if they had secretly founded a city I missed. Didn't see it. Went to espionage screen, there was no listing for India, no city to investigate. Whether "no city left" happened here or not, it's does happen, and it's (imo) a flawed rule.

Why Mil Tradition? Several reasons: first it was a cheap one to research, four turns almost no deficit. Second, I wanted the Mil Academy, I want to have some armies to fill while we yet have musketeers with which to fill them. Third, it was more a loss of cash than time, since the original plan was a surplus-cash-Gravity (although yes, time is money). Fourth, I can't stand having my pants down. We're not going to have better offense til tanks, ages from now. I don't look at Japan comfortably without cavs.
Finally, I simply could not envision India without hoards of Jumbos, given the previous reports. They weren't at war with anyone else, if we kept saying "go home", why on earth weren't they home? I pictured a battle that would have lasted 10 turns not 4, and one in which we lost most of our existing knights, or one in which we lost not more than one or two cav. Having said that, objectively was it the best call? Probably not :P

On the plus side, the next burst of activity won't cause war weariness, it will be over in the same turn it starts! And the sooner the mainland was clear the sooner we can get going on the FP. :hammer:

Charis

PS Looking at how recent events went, we're really going to want to be sure to snag suffrage :p

Busy today. Should be able to play tomorrow.

In 1425, the Pussycats are returned to power in France, vowing to finally rid the world of the Indian Menace! They summon our glorious western fleet to launch an assault on Bombay!

One ship? That's it? One ship that can reach the Indians any time this century. Well, okay...

In 1460 a heroic musketeer leads an army of two cannons onto Indian territory. The cannons bombard the city!! Yay!!! The musketeer attacks! And dies on the end of an Indian spear. Ummm. Ooops.

Our cannons are still entrenched outside Bombay -- the Indians being so in awe of their power they have made no attempt to capture them. Another musketeer, with cavalry support, is en route at the end of my turn, but for now the Indians survive. Boo! Hiss!

In other news, we secretly sent aid to our Roman brothers for their war with the vile Japanese who pollute our southern borders. Supply ships under a flag of convenience carried horses, iron and saltpeter to the Romans while our diplomats professed complete ignorance of any such activities. And the Japanese believed us! Whoo! Such stupidity deserves to be massively punished when we finally go to war :hammer:

Various cities rearranged to hasten production and/or growth. Governors in Brest, La Calcutta and La Punjab were rounded up for public execution :)

In a massive Treasury splurge, almost all of our glorious catapults were upgraded to even-more-glorious cannon. Also knights to cavalry, and a couple of spearmen to pikemen.

In 1460, Shakespeare came to France and opened his Theatre in Athos. Various other cities around the world which had been hoping to attract the bard were deeply disappointed. The Greeks and the Russians hope for a visit from some scientist called Newton, instead.

Paris is building a palace as a placeholder for Universal Suffrage (investigation showed Moscow was just 6 turns from finishing Newton's, so we can't use that as a placeholder in Athos).

In 1460 a heroic musketeer leads an army of two cannons onto Indian territory. The cannons bombard the city!! Yay!!! The musketeer attacks! And dies on the end of an Indian spear. Ummm. Ooops.

:eek:

Our cannons are still entrenched outside Bombay -- the Indians being so in awe of their power they have made no attempt to capture them.

I'm still chuckling over this! See!!?? The French cannons are so unusual that NO ONE knows how to use them save the Musketeers! :hammer:

Sadly, I can picture the following scenario.

1. The cannons go to bombard the city, and realize they cannot do so on their own
2. The very turn before we come back in our boat, the Indias overcome their fear and capture them.
3. We land, and, with no artillery support now around, can do nothing.
4. We somehow manage to take Bombay and find...

It's not the last city!

5. Gandhi refuses to speak to us, now or ever.
6. We look and look and don't see their city. Hidden or settler on boat.
7. War weariness increases and cripples the great French nation, toppling it into anarchy, and massive city revolts.
8. We sue for peace, giving him 3 cities and 1000 gold to stop!
:lol:

Universal Suffrage. What a fitting name for us!

Or of course, we might just wipe them off the map for good in about 3 turns :P

Charis

Well, Firaxis came out with a *HUGE* patch (huge in impact) for Civ 3. Below is the full list, and from the main CF page you can see
a link to a thread listing details.

*KEY* changes:
- Civ-specific units are now part of the regular upgrade chain.
* Mobile units now have to make a die roll to determine if they withdraw. Success is also modified by their experience level.
* It is now possible to completely suppress a city's cultural reversion with enough military units.
* Fixed infinite city growth exploit (involving granaries and size 6 cities).

And the biggest one of all...
* Eliminated 'Despot Pop Rushing'. :eek: :eek:

1) High-movement withdraws - a 'die roll'?? Sheesh! What's the chance, tell us! Perhaps they've read the Infantry thread and agree that the dominance of fast attackers is too complete?
2) 'How many' military can suppress reversion? Let's hope it's something like "=# foreign nationals in city" I wonder if they just moved the " minus #troops" term in the equation PRE-modifiers, so it just subtracts from foreign nationals+impinged border squares
3) "infinite city growth exploit" is a rather harsh wording for strategic use of a ***poorly*** designed quantum-jump food-box system :( Worker factories are gone. Also conscript factories.
4) *Eliminated* Pop rushing??? Bah!! Now, I'm NOT in favor of the 'endless whipping' strat some people see as 'the best' or 'the only way to defeat deity', but come on now. There were a host of ways to handle this. The best one, imho, was simple. Take unhappy people due to size and war weariness and modify for MilPolice and happiness units then apply "pop rushing cruelty" weariness. In contrast, two MP mean that size two is forever content, regardless of whipping. Done this way, a temple and 2 MP which would normally keep size 4 happy on a given diff, would only keep size 3 from revolting after 1 whip, size 2 after 2 whips, and size 1 after 3 whips. Doesn't this make infinite sense??
Instead, they've eliminated an option that wasn't all that far off for cities that you intened to grow and become viable long term.

Minor changes
- New sentry command for 'wake whenever next to enemy unit'
- Can move all "like" units in a stack together
- Added two more 'automate worker' commands I'll never use
- xyz started wonder abc now appears only with embassy or spy
* Fixed bug which allowed the AI to keep trying to build cities if the city limit had been reached.
* Fixed AI bug giving value to worthless techs. (What does this mean?)
* Fixed bug which sometimes caused you to not get any techs from Theory of Evolution.
* Fixed bug which allowed civs with no capitals. (fixes an exploit)

Comments
1) I would have made it move all 'same speed' units together.
2) Why can't they add a right-click command to a worker - "Finish the inane task someone automated you for, and then return to manual, ie dont toss away all the work you've started just to be woken up"
3) Does the AI-building city bug fix mean they wont try to expand like maggots to infest the whole planet?
4) All of our games with a variant component self-limit ourselves along the lines of what was patched- whipping, uu-chain, fast attackers

RBD effects:
- 'UUs' part of upgrade chain- Pikes to Muskets would be nice
- I'm glad all our current games had their 'reasonable' whips allowed
- rbd3 will be hit by clamp down on conscript factory (not that it will really matter)
- we might be able to stop the ridiculous practice of *having* to utterly starve a city down to avoid seeing a well garrisoned city revolt and flip

What do folks think of upgrading to the new patch?
I'm having CD-Rom problems and running the new one might not
be viable until I get it fixed. (I'm using a loaner from work but expect it to disappear before long) I wouldn't mind staying
1.16f until these games are done or near done, but upgrading
is ok too.

==== Full list

Additions v1.17b:
* Added Sentry command: y = wake whenever next to friendly or enemy unit(s) / shift+y = wake whenever next to enemy unit(s).
* Added stack movement. Hitting 'j' will produce the goto cursor. Once you select a destination, every unit of the active unit's type in that square will move to the specified location. Air units of the same type will attempt to rebase.
* The procedure for checking if the CD is in the drive has been changed to search all possible CD drives on a machine instead of simply the drive they installed the game from.
* There are now two types of "Improve Nearest City" commands. shift+'i' = Improve Nearest City. ctrl+shift+'i' = Improve Nearest City Without Altering Improvements.
* Editor: Added Undo/Redo functionality.
* Added Civilopedia links and cursor to diplomacy window.
* Added "Show Wonder Initiation" preference.
* Added "Turns to Expansion" readout to culture meter on City Display.


Changes v1.17b:
* City population drop shadows are now a pref and default to off.
* Scrollbar in Domestic advisor lengthened to make use of previously unused line.
* Civ-specific units are now part of the regular upgrade chain.
* Mobile units now have to make a die roll to determine if they withdraw. Success is also modified by their experience level.
* Workers on AI Automation (A/Shift+A) will now sleep in a city when there are no more actions to take. They will automatically awake when something needs to be done (such as clean pollution).
* Improved unit activation sequence.
* Expanded size of production popup drop list.
* Added mention of Wonder and improvement culture contributions doubling after 1000 years to Culture Civilopedia entry.
* It is now possible to completely suppress a city's cultural reversion with enough military units.
* Reworded luxury resource impact of marketplace and gold contribution in Marketplace Civilopedia entry.


Fixes v1.17b:
* Fixed bug which allowed the user to continue espionage even after the spy is killed.
* Fixed bug which prevented cruise missiles from targeting units with only 1 hit point.
* Fixed bug which miscalculated average scores (esp. for future techs).
* Fixed bug involving explorers and rail movement.
* Fixed a number of bugs involving recon missions.
* Fixed bug which let coastal fortresses hit submarines.
* Editor: You can no longer select Bonus Resources as a prerequisite resource.
* Eliminated 'Despot Pop Rushing'.
* Fixed pop-up bug involving citizen unhappiness on City Display.
* Fixed bug which did not destroy an enemy spaceship if the enemy capital was razed.
* Fixed bug which allowed the AI to keep trying to build cities if the city limit had been reached.
* Fixed bug which allowed infinite bombardment/precision bombing range.
* Fixed AI worker loop bug.
* Fixed missing-city-line bug in domestic window.
* Fixed AI disband unit bug.
* Fixed City Display bugs involving selling improvements and drafting citizens.
* Fixed bugs involving unit ordering.
* Fixed crash bug involving the civil disorder pop-up.
* Fixed bug with the cleanup pollution order.
* Fixed Flood Plain Civilopedia entry to correctly state increased food.
* Fixed Fortress Civilopedia entry to correctly state +50% defensive bonus.
* Fixed misspellings in Communism Civilopedia entry.
* Fixed AI bug giving value to worthless techs.
* Fixed bug with how capital/spy/embassy icons were being drawn for foreign cities.
* Optimized pathfinding for human player to prevent 10-second waits for various orders on huge maps.
* Fixed bug which sometimes caused depletion of resources so that there would be < 1 per civ.
* Fixed bug which sometimes caused you to not get any techs from Theory of Evolution.
* Fixed Communism Civilopedia entry to reflect the correct draft rate of 2.
* Fixed typo in Coast Civilopedia entry.
* Optimized save and scenario for speed increase.
* Build Railroad bubble text now lists the hotkey (Shift-R).
* Fixed bug which caused some government buildings not to function correctly.
* Fixed bug which allowed civs with no capitals.
* Spaceship parts pop-ups now only appear if you have a spy with the corresponding civ.
* "beginning wonder" pop-ups now only appear if you have an embassy or spy with the corresponding civ.
* Fixed infinite city growth exploit (involving granaries and size 6 cities).
* Corrected graphic display corruption on horizontal scroll bars.
* The correct scroll bar now always appears in production popup.
* Fixed spelling of Archimedes in Physics Civilopedia entry.
* Fixed title of "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection" in the Theory of Evolution Civilopedia entry.
* Fixed typo in Jet Fighter Civilopedia entry.
* Fixed typos in Modern Armor Civilopedia entry.

This is a case of an overloaded term. We tend to use "pop rushing" to signify any sort of rush-building using forced labor (actually, some of us tend to use it to refer to ANY sort of rush building). The usage in this case means that they fixed the "endless whipping" thing. All they changed is the order in which population is consumed when you whip (i.e. in the current patch, when you whip, you lose the *unhappy* people. Now you will lose the *happy* people). I wonder if it's also changed to override content face generators like Cathedrals (if not, then drafting farms could still be used, just at a slower rate).

You missed a big one, Charis -- they fixed the pollution cleanup order! Woohoo! :)

One more point: we probably will still want to starve down captured cities, unless we can finish off that civ in short order. Otherwise we tie up potentially useful offensive troops in garrison duty. If you're steamrollering an AI empire, you probably don't want to leave more than one or 2 defenders behind in *every* city you capture... the last few are less of an issue since at that point you can better afford to leave them on garrison until the their chance to flip is wiped out along with the civ in question.

Here's another point for your "game rewards cruelty" post on your site, Sirian: the game rewards you for completely wiping out another civ by eliminating war weariness and cultural reversion possibilities. Cultural persecution and genocide are good? :confused:

Originally posted by Zed-F
Here's another point for your "game rewards cruelty" post on your site, Sirian: the game rewards you for completely wiping out another civ by eliminating war weariness and cultural reversion possibilities. Cultural persecution and genocide are good? :confused:

Well, they might not be "good" but probably realistic. I seem to recall history being filled with invaders who burn cities to the ground, murder the men & boys and carry off the women & girls.

A more modern example would be Europe during WW2. I don't know the exact percentage of the German army stationed around to quell unrest and supress the native population of captured areas but I would bet it was probably at least 25%.

Might not seem politically correct, but probably much more realistic.

Ozymandious, the problem is not that you can do it, it's that the game encourages it because there is no downside. There should be diplomatic repercussions if you commit these sorts of atrocities. How many times have countries gotten into diplomatic (and other) trouble when their people/leaders justify the wholesale extermination of others because they believe they are the "master race" or because their religion approves of conversion by the sword?

EDIT: Moreover, the later in the game you get, the worse the diplo repercussions should be. In the ancient era, a neighboring civ probably won't care what you do to some other faraway civ, providing it doesn't think you'll do the same to them. In the modern era, wiping out a civ should be very bad diplomatically.

Zed: conquering a civ is not actually genocide. The citizens are not slain, unless all the cities are razed. Look at the "Iroquois" in real life. By CivIII standards, all the native Americans "got conquered" by European civs, but still exist as "foreign nationals" in today's cities. That's a dreadfully flawed comparison, but the point being, genocide is very specific term, describing the aim to annihilate a rival ethnicity, not just to take control over and occupy their lands.

Here's a better example: Germany and Japan. The Axis. They were conquered by the Allies, unconditional total surrender. Their governments in those forms are now extinct. That's the real deal with conquest: it's the GOVERNMENT, the organization of those people, that is at stake. In some brutal cases, life itself for a whole civ may be at stake, but generally it is more "Way of Life" at stake.

I don't quite see completing a conquest as something that should be penalized. What happens to the conquered peoples depends greatly on the mercy of the conquerors, as the USA has shown in nearly all of our wars, conquest can be a means of liberation, too.

That's starting to get beyond the sphere of Civ III, but that can't be helped if we are going to talk about the issue with the game. So I would have to disagree, I don't see this one as anywhere near the same category of "silly" incentives. Conquest comes when you completely defeat an enemy and have them totally at your mercy, but that's not necessarily evil or wrong, much less comparable to genocide. On the other hand, deliberate starvation, burning down cities and murdering populations for expediency, those are clearly brutal, and that the game offers up these as the "most effective" solutions to certain problems, I do find fault with.

I'm very encouraged by this patch, though. If Blizz North cared A TENTH as much about game balance as Firaxis clearly does, I'd have a lot less unkind things to say about them.

My vote in regard to patching would be "For", although if it means cutting anybody out of the loop over CD-write-protection hassles, I'd also be in favor of a delay until the non-Safedisk version comes available. Is Cy in this game? I know that he's one who has to deal with that mess, maybe others too.


- Sirian

Yes, I suppose I was envisioning Hussein's treatment of ethnic Kurds in his country more than what the US would do in a similar situation. Given that there's no overt indication of what happens with the members of another ethnicity in your cities (other than that they slowly become members of your ethnicity) there's really nothing that can be inferred from that, so bandying about terms like genocide and cultural persecution is probably going a bit overboard.

I still would think that if the game were to seriously try to model reality (i.e. not Civ3) there ought to be some diplomatic repercussions for destroying an enemy government and annexing it, at least in the modern age. But, since realism is not a primary goal with Civ3, I can live without it. :)

There's no room in the game, frankly, for genuinely friendly allies. "Benevolent Neutrals" don't exist either. It's a competition, and everyone else is a rival. Some may argue this mirrors real life but I disagree. Even oversimplified, this is still just a game, and its model is intended to serve the game more than "realism". For realism, or at least more realism, head to the sim category.

Just that as much slack as a game deserves, to the degree that it actually chooses to make the attempt at either realism or suspension of disbelief, it obligates itself to certain things. I have to think that the city reversion/revolt concept is not intended solely on the mechanical level -- there is an artistic choice there, a bit of commander-in-chief roleplay or at least strategy -- and to that degree, I believe the game owes us a little more in the way of sensical incentives, penalties, and rewards, for the various options presented to us.

Something's been askew... just not to a level of warranting the word "genocide" in regard to conquest. Razing... is another story.


- Sirian

Does anybody besides Cyrene have a potential CD problem with upgrading to the new patch? I would like to go with the new patch asap, all things considered. I'm itching to try it out, after Carbon's report of activity in his test game. And I think the balance should be improved for our SG games here, as well.

I don't want to cut anybody out, but unless this is the kind of deal where several people would be ground to a halt and we'd be stuck waiting on them to be able to keep going, I vote for immediate patching and to get this ball rolling. This would apply to all our SG games.

What do you think? And which thread(s) should we hold the discussion/voting in? I picked this one because I know Cy is in this game and would be paying attention.


- Sirian

I vote we patch (as you already know, just copying it here for Cy's benefit)

I vote to patch too. So far this patch looks very exciting and I've seen little or no downsides to it. Improvement all the way. :D The only reason I'm not using the patch in my turn on RBD 3 is that I wanted to hear some sort of consensus for patching before I actually went ahead and did it.

I've already patched, and I kinda like it. Some things to watch out for that ARE different for the new games (and not necessarily mentioned in the readme) listed at the following thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16385

-whipping/drafting effects last 40 turns :eek: yowza, ouch! I guess that means that we get to whip a temple and then a granary OR a courthouse (and likely neither for new additions) once we're in despotism. It also makes the Monarchy MP of three look much more attractive.

-oil doesn't show up on plains (pretty much the entire world save a few civs would have been screwed in RBD3, desert only showed up in Greece and Japan, and tundra only in India and France, IIRC)

The no-cd crack is already out, so I vote "patch."

Yeah, that Safedisc is really worth the money they spend on it and all the hassle for the paying customers, eh?

--Cy

(for those that don't know me, yes, I own a copy of the game. I also own a multi-beam, low rpm, 72x cdrom that does not read safedisc cds)

Whipping / drafting effects last 40 turns?! :eek: Seems pretty extreme to me. Looks like Firaxis has just gone from one extreme to the other in terms of whipping. That's probably the first weedy change the patch has made that I've heard of. Guess I'd better read that thread and see what other changes I've missed.

I'm glad to see the patch question addressed and answered by many folks, across the rbd games.

Hearing no dissent, and seeing Cy and I are not left in the lurch...

Upgrade.

If you're mid-turn, do before or after, as you like, but the official version to use for RBD games will be 1.17 as of the next posted saves. (ie, get in your last whips and conscripts before it's too late!! :hammer:)

I've not applied it yet, but it seems they've not eliminated despot rushing. What I'm not sure is... have they made it WORSE?? If the ONLY change was 40 turns of unhappiness vs 20, they encourage in a big way 'whipping' cities that have no intent whatsoever to actually build anything. If they've changed the order for applying happiness and sadness modifiers, that would have been a sufficient fix to 'frequent whipping'. If they've gone and done both, sheesh, now it's gutted, AND the AI's might actually get hurt more than the players. We'll find out soon.
As Sirian pointed out in another post, I also think 40 turns unhappy for conscripting is too harsh. (A nice change would have been to revert the unhappiness by giving 'conscript' quality units the ability to 'join city' ;p)

One of the "unstated" changes in this patch seems to be to give zone-of-control *and* blitz capability to armies. So now, if they have movement left, they can attack multiple times per turn. (This applies to tanks which by some odd quirk, I've not noticed! I also need to bone up on what ZOC really means, it's a little unclear)

Charis

OK, I got it.

"For Better or For Worse, For Richer or For Poorer, til Death (or Victory) Do Us Part... I Take Thee, Patch 1.17f, to be My Lawfully Chosen Version."

:love2: :hammer: :eek: :rolleyes: :)


PS: Still waiting for Charis to notice all his broken smileys with the close parentheses. :lol:

:hammer:)

Egads!! I'm being inattentive on those smilies!!


:hammer:)

Charis

Inherited Turn: What? We're still not in Democracy? Hmm.

The new patch IS MOST GLORIOUS! 43 of our obsolete pikemen could be upgraded to most awesome Musketeers, if only we had about 1300 gold. We have about 700, and with Wall Street.

OK jot this down, because you may never see it again:

I SLOWED RESEARCH ON STEAM POWER. (There, I said it. :hammer:)

1480AD: The Indians sit IN AWE of our glorious cannon and cower in their city.

1485AD: Steam Researched. We have 1250ish in our treasury. There is one coal, deep in Indian territory, in area recently captured by Musketeer Charis, our Most Wise to have forseen the strategic value of that otherwise frigid, barren land. Intracontinental Railroad Project gets under way.

I initiate our Revolution. Anarchy will last for six turns. Our troops land near Bombay.

1490AD: Bombay Captured. India fights on.

1510AD: Bangalore captured, India defeated.

1515AD: France enters Democracy.

1525AD: Intercontinental Railroad completed. Our rails extend to the four corners of our great empire (don't ask me how I pulled that off with six turns of anarchy). First ironclad rolls out of Athos.

Because of all that anarchy, my turn was rather quiet. France is poised for production breakout. Forbidden Palace now due in about 20 turns, down from "Never".

Oh yeah. I single-handledly "produced" more glorious musketeers than all previous leaders combined. Oui oui! Send cash and flowers to 1 Palace Way, Athos, attention "His Royal Majesty, the President." Thank you thank you. :)

:shotgun: :shotgun: :shotgun: :hammer:)


- Sirian

Got it.

I intend to get this in tomorrow, as Sunday will be a total write-off (Daytona 500 party).

--Cy

OH I’ve been workin’ on the railroad, all, my live-long term…

And that’s ALL I did.

The military rail net is in, and all continental cities are online. A massive hoard of workers is railing every square in our good-producing areas first.

Electricity comes in in 2 turns.

Athos is on Universal Sufferage, but, with 19 turns left to go, might not get it.

Paris has a placeholder going, as ToE and Hoover are in sight.

The next President has to decide if they want to nab Replaceable Parts, or work the ToE Hoover line.

The AI’s give us most their money each turn. Persia, Russia, and Greece have The Corp. and Medicine; no one has Electricity yet.

Over $2400 in the bank and climbing, even research at 80%.

Future ruler might want to review our sea-colonies and ship them some upgraded troops.

--Cy

Cy, good turn :P

Sirian, excellent job on those muskets (well, tnx to Firaxis mostly, but still, an unexpected bonus!) :hammer:

Zed, pop in if you can snag this for a turn this weekend or not. I'm watching a movie tonight :P

Charis

Nope, got Infantry and RBD4 done, will have to pass on this one. Unless you just want me to hit next turn 10 times... :)

Ok, np :P

Got it. (Eep! Got Infantry, rbd7 games too and on-deck in Essex. Feast or famine yet again)

:hammer:
Charis

Ah!! So many glorious Musketeers and Cannons, the heart of D'Charis is
much warmed, as he rides in on the wonderful new rail network! Best of all is
there is no memory or ill-will from the nasty times of ancient past when we
had to quell our pugnacious neighbors to the north!

All that and Electricity and Suffrage on the horizon. (BTW Cy, Suffrage is
the right to vote, Sufferage, er... is the act of suffering! )
(oooh, I like the histograph! Gosh we have a lot of cities... and 235 units)

> The next President has to decide if they want to nab Replaceable Parts, or
> work the ToE Hoover line.

Go for ToE! Hoover is cooler! Replaceable parts?? Do Musketeers need

replacements? Oh wait, the other unit with RP... glorious Artillery!!
Urg... It has no extra prereqs, they would be nice to have. But if we
don't get another wonder available if we fail on Suffrage, we'll lose a
ton of shields... tough choice. We have two turns to figure that out.

OMG!! I just opened the map!! The swarm of workers buzzing is just...
amazing... Screenshot is attached, folks MUST see this! (Nit... coordinated
groups, four or 8 per stack, can get a square railroaded in one turn. This
gets the benefits quicker. Usually no biggie, but... being in a tight wonder
race, waiting several turns for Athos to complete a rail tile could be painful!)
Of course, with 492 workers, things will get done faster *AND* the AI will
be scared out its pants!! (It counts workers as part of 'military strength')
With that nit is also a huge pat on the back to Cy!! For ex-Mr.Automated-
worker, this must have been PAINful!

1575 AD (0) - Poor Japan. I wonder if they realize that our only direction
to expand our contiguous mainland is by eating into their borders? Alas,
they DO have a large and powerful civ with many cities. Mayhaps there will
be an opportunity instead to go after #2 civ, Greece. It seems after our
recent bloodthirsty years, we can try to build up somewhat of a lead,
build our armies (literally) and see who provokes us next.

As we go around the cities, many courthouses are called for to replace
plans for aqueducts or libraries (yes, you read right!) We note that
Fort D'Charis has no garrison, ironic for a fort. And wow, look at the
garrison at Dijon!! They're sure guarding the mustard! Heavy help anyone who
tries to grab our royal Poupon!!! :hammer:

Census reports... 71 cities, 83 glorious musketeers!! Only 52 Cannon+Cats,
ruh roh. We'll aim to fix that this reign. 28 Cav, smelly packmules for our
M'eers! Rails, wow... we truly can transport a *TON* of artillery firepower
now from any end of our glorious continent to another.

A look at Diplo.. Alex, Cathy, Xman offer Medicine for 1000 gold. Japan lacks
Mil Tradition and Steam Power??? Oh man, the timing is very inviting!???!
They have two coals and ALMOST no saltpeter, I finally see it outside
Osaka. There is also Saltpeter in unclaimed land near our Bangalore.
General D'Charis notes that if we could take and secure Sapporo and Sato,
we could take their entire Eastern Penninsula and have just two chokepoints
to defend. Hmm... ok, current plan is peaceful build up in preparation for
glorious conquest, but... it'll be with a trigger finger. Do not mess with
the French on THIS watch, world! :hammer: (Someone smacks Charis with a
wet fish and notes he should get on with his turn before it's 2am! :smack: )

1580 AD (1) - The holes are plugged. 29 workers wake up, and they get sent
with haste to Athos to RR and to mine, and to Toulousse. Result?
Suffrage in 19 down to 17, FP in 7 down to 5, ParisPalace 36 to 31 :D
MMOW isn't just a day job, it's vital civ planning! :P
Hmm, Rhodes, Moscow and Susa are our rivals here. Worst case is a cascade
off Suffrage to ToE or even Dam. Susa is a pea-sized city, a joke.
Moscow... oh my this could be close. Good size, good shields, fortunately
with some tundra-forests. This one might bear investigation. Rhodes... shoot...
also a strong builder. Cy saved up some cash, so let's investigae.
Moscow complete in... 18 (!!!) We're at 17 now. Dumb dumb dumb AI!! It's
pumping food - max at size 12 with no hospital, overflow of 9 food(!) Wow
it gets worse! An un-mined hill! They could complete in much less if human.
Rhodes? Due in 16! Eep!! We were dead in the water at 20 turns, heading to
win in 17, but now we need desperately to shave off one (or two) more turns!!
Moscow and Rhodes kick out 32 and 34 shields/turn, vs 38 for Athos. Alas their
land is better, if they would just put down railroads they also could kick
ahead.

1585 AD (2) - Electricity arrives! WLTMD in Fort D'Charis :love:
Tech... what next. At max research, RepParts takes 6, Medicine and Corp
are 4 turns even at surplus. Base costs are SciMeth 100, Corp 100, Med 100,
RepParts 140. we can discover SciMethod in 4 turns then. Options: Buy Med,
Research SM in 4. Research both in 8. RepParts, Med, SciMeth in 14 turns,
which is just in enough time to switch wonders if needed. "Topping off"
Medicine by two turns might be helpful, to be safe.

The workers around Athos are cheered into a frenzy! An irrigated cattle
giving 5-2-3 is mined to make it 3-4-3 and we chop a turn off from 16 to 15.
That's zero growth. To get one more we'll need to deficit for a while.
Actually, I chop the forest-game giving 3-2-2 and mine the resulting plains
for 3-3-2 (deforestion is best for plains in railroad era). The chopped
shields don't count, but we need that one extra per turn. The other irr-cattle
is mined to knock production up to 43 for a while. I or next leader must
reverse before food drops out.

MMOW. Another TWO turns shaved off Paris palace, to go with the 1 (hopeful 2)
Athos Suffrage quickening.

1590 AD (3) - MumOW. Moo!!
1595 AD (4) - Just had a vision of the flock of 200 workers going down to clear
the jungle of Burma! So they WILL stay useful for quite a while to come.

Greece, Russia and Persia now haVe Corporation (and is up three techs on us).
Japan has got nothing new.

Looking at happiness, btw, immediate war would have hurt bad. Most size 12
cities are 6/6 happy/sad.

1605 AD (6) - Porthos starts a colloseum, as does Rheims. Chartres starts its
factory.

Forbidden Palace is finished, ahead of schedule, in Toulouse! :hammer:
Whoa! Now it's whompin out 34 shields/turn and can make a factory in 8 turns.
Look out world! Madras goes from 1 shield to 21 :P That's with about 1/4
railroads there too. We're definitely too loosely packed there. Get in some
filler cities/villages. Milady even gets a little excited, and with some
railroad ties laid, can hit 40 shields/turn!

Cajun Village founded in SW Burma next to the unclaimed saltpeter source.
The diplomat helper reminds us "Tokogawa is a known liar and a cheat!"

1610 AD (7) - Our glorious pennisula has not one but several 'expansions' due
to culture. The border with Tula of Russia is beaten back mightily!
(Oh did I mention I rushed a few temples down there, not liking that one
puny size 2 Russian city was pushing back the boundary of *6* of our glorious
colony cities?!) With this push back, we can now connect via railroad and not
cross their border :P I shift around mine/tile at Athos a bit to see if I
can avoid the next person having to do so.

> Future ruler might want to review our sea-colonies and ship them some
> upgraded troops.

Cy's words come back. I load up a Galleon of our finest.

1615 AD (8) - Replaceable Parts is learned! Artillery upgrades cost 40, and
a Musketeer to Infantry 'downgrade' is 30 :D (Clearly some or many infantry
will be useful, but under no circumstances accidently choose 'upgrade all'! :P)

Oh my!! I had forgotten AGAIN how useful replaceable parts is! Workers go at
double speed (!), meaning mine/irrigate take 1 turn and rails fly. And of
course, rubber shows up. Where you ask? We have two, near Paris and Rainbow
Valley (India). Ah, more than two, it's disconnected in Burma outside Verona.
Ha! And outside our Bordeaux colony (time to reinforce there soon!)
Oh bummer!! Japan has no rubber! :hammer: Nor does Rome. Persia has it
outside Tarsus and Altin Tepe. More sadness, neither Greece nor Russia seem
to have any! Woo!! Unless I missed one (possible) there are six global
sources, and we control 4, Persia 2. Maybe neverending jungle isn't so bad?!

Lots more factories are started, as those cities that need still have a LOT
of other city improvements to build.

1620 AD (9) - Athos tuning is complete. It will finish Suffrage in 7 turns,
at least two turns in front of the competition. Pray they've not
researched Scientific Method by then (with Electricity not common, unlikely).
Do NOT trade electricity. When it comes in, irrigate the two mined cattle back
to food. I "top off" research on Medicine, getting it 3 turns early, for
a lowly 500 gold from Cathy. Now we're due to finish Scientific Method in
4 turns. ToE prebuild? It's just 600 shields, vs 800 for Suffrage or
Hoover. Athos doesn't even have a factory yet! It will be unbeatable to
Hoover if we get the ToE, with time to slip in a factory even, and it has
a river in radius. Porthos, All-for-One, even Milady, are all good for ToE.
Oh, almost forgot... Paris has 400 shields built up :D River capable too.
For the two techs we get to choose Atomic and Electronics with the new
patch, very nice! When SciMethod arrives, Paris will be able to complete it
in less than five turns! :)

1625 AD (10) - Looking over the landscape, we're in great infrastructure
build mode - factories and courthouses going up just about everywhere.
Happiness is borderline ok but will tumble with even a little weariness.
Once the factories and courthouses finish, ToE and Hoover up, we will be
extremely ready to rock and roll! :hammer:
Sirian, any tricks to 'selecting' the techs from ToE now? Do you WANT
to be researching what you hope to get at the time? If so we'll want to
be researching Atomic Theory at 0% the turn before Theory of Evolution arrives.

Consider making a settler and new fishing village to NW of our now-up
Forbidden Palace. "Forbidden Fish?!" :P

Porthos is set to catch up on the artillery deficit, cranking one out
every other turn, with nothing else to build until hospital. It's been
very quiet this watch. One must wonder if the AI's will mix it up soon.
I sorta doubt they'll come after us due to our 'massive' (worker) 'army'.

The ship at Cod Piece is heading to La Bastille which just finished its
barracks. It can upgrade the Spears there. Ships have been patrollling in
general, but don't seem to have any harsh intent. I dropped off one too
many musketeers there at Cod! One needs to get back on the ship and
head to Bastille to man the artillery :P

Charis

PS Ugh, that took about 5.5 hrs, Infantry will be tomorrow.

Can't wait to see this horde going after the rest of the Burmese jungle!!

Glad I checked the cities building suffrage. We were set to beat one by one turn but lose to Greece by *1* turn.

Fortunately, I could correct the situation at Athos, while the AI was doing nonsense like this:

(Megafood surplus, no railroads, un-mined hills, sheesh)

-- Charis

ToE "completes" whatever tech you are working on at the time, and then gives whatever one you select next. So... the best value is to be sitting on the tech you want, with nothing invested. If you can't complete a research project one turn before ToE is scheduled to finish, you might as well not even start it, just sit on 0 and stockpile cash. I imagine that most games will now involve grabbing Atomic and Electronics with this wonder, although in RBD4, Replaceable Parts was a higher priority.

- Sirian

I knew I was going to hear about those workers, but it was just too funny to do it that way to resist.

FYI, I DO stack them when putting in the military rail net, as I have clear priorities at that time. Of course, this also means you have to touch every single worker every single ^%$&^# turn. Once that was in, I rebelled and spread them so that the terrain would differentiate and I would only have to move about 1/3 of them each turn. On yeah, and they were REALLY funny like that 8-). If you don’t have a priority, there is no net loss in spreading them, and, unless you carefully match the number and nationality of workers to the terrain type for each tile, you will have a net gain as there will not be any wasted effort.

Your point about railing the wonder cities is taken; that is, there still WAS a priority. I didn’t think of that as I always forget to tune the wonder cities as I don’t even BUILD wonders in my solo games…

Just don’t hurry Paris up TOO much, or we’ll have an unwanted new palace 8-).

Now for the OT stuff.

I have found in my solo games on Emperor and Deity difficulties that folks are right. As counter-intuitive as it might sound, if, from the start of the game, you set your research at 10% and leave it, and your lux at 0% and leave it (managing happiness city by city), you generally generate enough cash flow to just buy almost all the techs you need as you need them. If you have a few excess lux/resources you can peddle for tech every 20 turns, this tactic really pays off. You have so much cash you can (1) continuously upgrade everything up the tree and not have to waste resources building military units, (2) hurry every single building project (not a lot, just with 1 or 2 turns left for 100 or less gold—you’d be surprised how building improvements in 1 or 2 less turns every time can affect things). Then, once every tile is railroaded, every city has a marketplace and bank (well the bank if they are producing enough to make it worthwhile), and the wall street is in, you can up the research to 80% and streak for the Hoover while still generating $$$$ surplus a turn.

As far as I can tell, this only works because the AI is wonder-obsessed, and researches every dead-end wonder-tech it can find. This creates two benefits. First, as the AI tech leaders branch off into the dead ends, it allows the trailing AI’s to catch up on the essential techs, reducing their price to you, allowing you to “catch up” with the lead AI (in terms of essential tech only) frequently throughout the game. Secondly, while they are bogged down researching the dead ends, you can sometimes get an actual tech LEAD on ONE (not all) of the essential paths even at 40 turns per tech. After a few turns head start, you can then broker this back to catch up on the other essential trees.

A further AI weakness (and reason this works) is that it seems completely unable to prioritize tech research order, frequently creating opportunities for the human player who prioritizes based on what is actually useful. If I am playing Iroquois, and my army is a spearman or 2 in every city with two flying squads of mounted warriors (or the Babs with spearmen and Bowmen), then iron working is irrelevant to me except that it will show me iron locations. And THAT is irrelevant unless I have enough strength to go take it from some one, and can’t get it in trade when I eventually need it. So you don’t spend the big bucks to get it while it is hot, you let it sit and rot until they are begging to give it to you for a shrubbery. Spend your bucks/lux on literature, map making, construction—you know, useful stuff 8-). This pattern repeats over and over (otherwise it would not be a pattern, eh?). Let the AI go haring off down the Medicine/Sanitation tree, and let them continue to try to get $2,000-$3,000 for it. Get stuffed. I don’t NEED hospitals. I only need hospitals if I (a) have every damn worker I’ll ever need, and (b) have no cities anywhere that can support higher pop that I can pop-shift to—and these two are highly unlikely, especially as right there I am trying to get a rail net in.

Man, have I gone off on a tangent or what?

--Cy

ps—playing these sort of games had led me to ponder a “Revenge of the Jocks” succession game. Emperor diff, zero research, zero scientists, no wonders, emphasize military and workers.

ps—playing these sort of games had led me to ponder a “Revenge of the Jocks” succession game. Emperor diff, zero research, zero scientists, no wonders, emphasize military and workers.

Similiar but different from an idea I've been trying in my own game, that I was hoping to propose as a SG. With that style, I think it would be far too easy for the humans to just blitz over the AI.

I'm playing right now as the "Clueless Romans". No science at all but I must win by space race. I've made it into the Industrial Age ok. I'm just drawing up lines and keeping France in check right now. I can't beat anybody up too bad, because I need the tech to keep flowing so the game doesn't hit the 2050 wall.

I expect the end game will consist of espionage and probably some capital-nabbing. I hope it's touch-and-go and I win. That's my favorite scenario. It's certainly odd never having a tech advantage!

I think it would be ideal for a succession game, because one of the most important things to do is to FREQUENTLY check up with other civs to see if they have a tech to trade. I sometimes forget for a few turns alone, but i find the level of concentration in most SGs is higher. (I think having fewer turns and taking notes causes this.)

Think the RBD crew is up for this, as a sort of "Clueless Americans" game or the like? I don't have time to organize it, but I think you guys could do it! And I'd sure enjoy reading it. A diplomatic win as a consolation prize wouldn't be too bad....

Sorry for the OT post. We now return you to your regularly-scheduled posts... :hammer:

Arathorn

Started turn. Will finish tomorrow.

Not much to report. Got Suffrage and ToE. Haven't put a city on Hoover yet -- building factories in Athos and Paris. Massive upgrade of cannons to artillery. Yay :)

Need more infantry and better defence of our border cities, then we can go after Japan :hammer:

OK I got it. Will post later tonight.

I was blessed to live in uninteresting times. No news is good news. Cy's up next.

- Sirian

The shortest Sirian turn report ever!! :D

Got it. I'll need to space this around Summoning Team tonight, but will probably get it in.

If not, tomorrow for sure.

Boy, things certainly sound quiet lately.

Too quiet.

--Cy

ps--assuming I, erm, a *friend* of mine, yeah, that's it, a *Friend*, were contemplating world domination, has there been a definative answer on if Communism or Monarchy is the superior form of government? Especially if this *friend* was playing a non-relig civ like, say ohhhh, just for the sake of argument, France, where government changes have to be kept to a minimum?

The answer clearly is...

Musketeerism is the greatest government!!! :hammer:

All for one and one for all. Sounds kinda communist, doesn't it?
Nod, just realized it's 1725 and we've taken out one civ, and are in a "infrastructure mode". I have this odd feeling that I'm going to rather enjoy Cy's turn report!?

Charis

Upon further review...

We had the arty to knock down the Rockies, but nothing to guard it with, or to mind the store on the frontline behind the advancing columns. We also had a disturbing number of size 12 cities in the heartland without frou-frou items like, oh, a Library...

So I put off the death-fest to build up a bit more. I think we are ready now 8-).

You've got about 35 Infantry camped quetly in the towns on the Japanese border. Good luck 8-).

Flight came in; airports are being built to build bombers at. Mass Production is due in 3 turns, then we can get som battlewagons going for some shore bombardment. Hoover and Battlefield Med are done. We have spies in all civs (boy is Rome sucking wind--we could take it with just our musketmen).

All that is required is to pick a target and set our glorious artillary loose!

--Cy

ps--Japan has enough Samuri to be a real pita.

Now that I have had some sleep, a couple of "Oh Yeah"'s.

Remember that Diplo is enabled in this game. It is time to count research turns and see where/when we want to pre-build for the UN. We have to get that wonder and hide that gavel or the game will end before we get to have our real bombarb fun.

The next target will be an interesting choice. Japan is an obvious choice but is a bit stout. OTOH, the longer we leave them, the stronger they will get. Might be better to take them on (even with their 7 million Samuri) before they have a bunch of Infantry and Tanks. If they are next, I bet it would be really easy to suck Greece into it on our side. I would go after them next before they get REALLY strong, but that is up to future leaders.

We're almost ready to flip to Communism (that is, almost all infrastructure is done in core, and edge cities are building up pop and ready for their infrastructure boost from distributed misery, erm, communism). The only issue with the Government flop I see is that we need to try to drag everyone else into Communism with us so no AI goes wild while we are bombarbding our way to world domination. Usually they manage this all on their own in the Modern Era, but Murphy says we will probably have to arrange it since that is exactly what we want.

--Cy

Who's up? Is Zed going to grab this one this weekend?

Back from a very nice weekend :hammer:

I was surprised to look up the order and see, yes, I'm next. I have some catching up to do and am likely due in another game, so I'll leave this tonight in case Zed wants a crack.

Also have the exciting conclucsion to rbd7 to do, and two new games starting.

Charis

I expect I will not grab this one this time around. Just did RBD4 and Infantry.

Just wanted to update on this game. I'm on it (oh man, am I).
Spent 5.5 hrs on the game last night, and another 5 tonight. I'm on turn 8, and last turn Japan moved *FIVE DOZEN* units up to attack us and try to take our cities!!

:eek:

Wanna know the kicker though...
They're outnumbered, outclassed, and those cities were theirs until they were dominated by the GLORY OF FRANCE!!

:hammer:

Other teasers...
Communist rule.
Whole world is entangled in war.
Massive drafts.
Airlifts.
A heroic tale of Musketeer courage saving an island.


Stopping for the eve before I mess things up. The hand off will be hot, hot, Jaffa, so be ready. I *hope* it will be slightly more under control after these next (and last) two rounds. If it weren't so flat out messy I would have turned it over midturn. Should be able to post it tomorrow eve (Tues)

Charis

Asbestos mitts are ready and waiting :flamedevi

Hmmm. RBD4 war with France. Infantry war with France. RBD5 war as France. Do I sense a trend? :)

I figured the long delay here after your return to town was either (1) you had forgotten you were up, or (2) you decided to pick up that big gun I left loaded and on the table for you and use it 8-0.

This read ought to be fascinating 8-).

I already had a TOE, and primary and secondary objectives drawn up for the invasion, and will be interested to see how it compares with the plan you set loose.

--Cy

RBD3 and 6, France is our best friend! Could it be that you're the deciding factor, Jaffa? If you're there, Joanie attacks. If not, she's all flowers and spice? ;)

Oh wait, you were there for RBD1 where France was our best ally until the X-Man roughed her up. Hmm, oh wait again. I forgot. We joined in the X-Man assault on Joanie to buy his favor for a while, so poor France ended up as our enemy in the end and we wrought her doom. :( Hmm. OK, yep, definitely you're the bad luck charm for Joanie in RBD games. ;) Didn't the final war against France in RBD1 start on your turn?? :lol:

:sheep:

Each time the line of Jean Paul d'Charis comes to power, they become
more and more impressed at the state of their country, their founding
three musketeer cities, and the power of their most glorious musketeers
and artillery.

The first world war (or the war against anti-French insolence) was against
India, and was fought pretty much with horsemen, swordsmen, pikes and catapults.
Musketeers entered at the end to finish things off. The second assault of
French liberation simply had to be done with Musketeers and Cannons. There
would be other wars, but their civilization could not let pass by the chance
to strike decisively with these most glorious instruments of war.

Jean Paul's comments, on seeing that no, we're not just finished Steam Power
but are almost into the modern age, "Egads!! We're this far developed??"
Samurai??? There is far in the hearts of men because of... Samurai????
He tore his hair in anger at the peaceniks who had come before him, for he
viewed it as a total lack of confidence in the glory that is france, the
Musketeer. Artillery??? We've had artillery and are not expanding????
After he awoke from feinting, he vowed to IMMEDIATELY reverse this trend.

The whole world is in a state of peace??? One big happy family?? After the
feinting came the vomiting. It was just too much to stand.

General! What is the state of our foes?? "Sir, they ALL have infantry."
(Except Rome, viewed as a miserable and backward state). Greece, Russia,
and Persia each lacked Combustion and Electronics. Japan was slightly behind,
lacking Atomic Theory and Combustion. Tokogawa was described as a known cheat.
"A known cheat and liar is on our doorstep, and... lives???!"

"Sir, we have 67 cities, 84 musketeers, and, er... uh... only 55 Artillery"
:blush: Jean Paul gave orders for the Artillery quartermaster to be
executed for his inexcuseable negligence. "Also 42 Infantry, 28 Cavalry,
11 Swordsmen and 2 armies." "Ah good, the Infantry can protect our Musketeers!"

"Sir, we do have recon on the other nations!" Jean Paul was floored by this.
An actual COUNT of the power of the enemy!! Wow!!
Japan: 68 Samurai, 68 Musketboys, an army 16 mini-artillery pieces, 3 cav, 24 inf
Greece: 8 cav, 15 knights, 54 inf, 16 rifle, 7 artillery
Persia: 45 inf, 1 cav, 9 art. Russia: 98 infantry (!! sheesh, dug in!) and
a Massive navy. Everyone was in Democracy.

The goal was set. Japan was first, with Sado and Sapporo as objectives for
the first big campaign. Greece would be invited in, and it was hoped (??!)
that Japan could pull Russia in against Greece. (Might try to maneuver that
way, in fact) If we can pull Persia in against Greece too, and Rome in
against Japan, we have a glorious world war going on to disrupt the
peacenik planet!! Could our colonies survive Russia as an enemy?
La Bastille responded "Bring it on!!" :hammer:
Cod Piece said "EEEEEPPPP!!"

So how to start?? In next turn or two swap and/or rush production and get
defenders to the colonies, then switch government to Communism. Just don't
want that going on mid-war, and I plan to be in war for many years to come.
Then get MPP with Greece, and attack Japan, Russia and Persia. Then
get mil alliance with Rome vs Japan.

He did not expect world conquest from this, no he knew there would be
future campaigns with tanks, mech infantry, paratroopers and radar
artillery. But he did need to cut Japan in size by 1/3, and wanted the
other countries to not just coast along in democracy.

A nervous chill... do we have any committments in treaties?? Looking around
we see 'no' (except 2 turns to Rome). Phew!

What a stack of workers!!! Wow! We can build rail almost instantly, great!
I awake 2 out of the 36 there sleeping to finish cleaning the pollution.

A few airports and inf orders were changed to artillery, so there were 10 units
in production. Cod Piece barracks were rushed, and other small shifts made...
Tula, the Russia city that was a stench in our penninsula, stealing our
oil, would be one of the very first cities taken!

1760 AD (0) - In addition to all the above, we take the plunge into... anarchy.
We'll be out of it in 4 turns. (Is that good, I don't recall the range)
(No one becomes sad??)

1762 AD (1) - Filling up and sending the boats while the world sleeps,
unaware of what is coming up...

1764 AD (2) - Three pollution spots, our massive movements are explained
away as mainly workers heading to clean up these spots...

1766 AD (3) - Persia gets Electronics and thinks that a Territory Map swap
would be fair if WE threw in Combustion?!! WTH is he smoking?! Jean Paul
is staring to be more comfortable with him being on the OTHER SIDE of the
upcoming world war.

1768 AD (4) - We form a new socialist "Musketeer" form of government!!

:hammer:

The people agree to support their glorious M'eers up to 330 units, so
we can swell by 50 more at no charge. Happiness rises, education wanders
(6 turns vs 3 for Mass Production? Ouch)

How does the new 'distributed pain' affect us?

Sucrea Bleu!!! (sp??!) Gasp!!! Glorious Athos wastes 25 of 53 shields??
Milady wastes 13 and produces 38, being much more used to this type of
rule (and having a courthouse). Our far out cities which were 1-shield
wonders are now getting about 50% productivity (eg New Karachi seeing
4 of 7 shields for the first time in its life). This will breathe new
life into the colonies and to Burma, that's for sure.

We clear off ALL existing RoP and Luxury deals with all countries
except Greece. Then we look for new luxury/happiness problems (none with
the MP). Adjust production and food in cities, then back to bargaining...

Greece takes an MPP for free!! (Uh... uh... he's caught up in tech already?
only lacks flight??? We gotta drag these democracies down and quick!)

Rome? Will you ally vs Japan? "No can do!!" Will you join an MPP? "Sure!!!!"
"So let me get this straight, rather than have ONLY Japan come after you,
you want Russia and Persia also???" "Yes!!!" "Uh, ok, Caesar"
Mental note to self: Caesar is an idiot.

"Sir, may I point out something...? Perhaps it is YOU, who are the idiot??!"
The servant is taken to the gallows and is about to be hung, but Jean
Paul d'Charis is stricken with curiousity what he could have meant?"

"Sir, did you happen to check for MPP's already in existence?" "No, why?"
"Take a look."

EEP!!

The whole bloody peacenik planet is virtually one big MPP!!! I can't attack
ANYONE without setting an MPP off?!? The worst is that Greece and Japan
are MPP'd. The servant is re-instated, the old advisor is executed, and he
is promoted to Secretary of War. How to get our enemies to fire the first
shots? Preparation of espionage strategies are made.

"Excuse me sir, but... oh I do hesitate to say this, but..."
"Your new Secretary of War is an idiot!"

This servant too was about to be killed for such a comment, but this
time asked before being brought to the gallows. "Does he know how to
read the intel reports? How to distinguish between RoP and MPP?"

The peaceniks were not in MPP, but only in RoP.
The brand new Secretary of War was fired! Emissaries of war dispatched
on the non!

Artillery... BOOM! War is declared vs Russia, simultaneous with an
artillery barrage of Tula. Five more shots follow, and papers from a
burning library are seen. A cav moves up to see better. A hurt spearman
is defending! Muhahah! Was two spears, mowed down by cav. Who to garrison?
I know!! The outdated swordsmen! They'll also be used in border-worker
capture detail.

Any elite troops that can be found are sent to the Japanese border.
France declares war on Japan. France declares war on Persia! :hammer:

New Satsuma and Sado have the distinct displeasure of being within
range of Artillery and Rail :P Ka-BOOM! Bryansk, a Russian city,
is also in this sad situation. And it has two spear defenders. (Looks for
an elite cav or horse... none seen) Easily taken. There is a sword, pike,
and archer OUTSIDE the city. They're quickly softened to 1, then comes
the 'elite' crew of cherrypickers to try for a GL. No luck there.

Next is New Satsuma... boom, boom, two defenders, both hurt, two cav.
City captured. Samurai outside the area is cherrypicked (no luck).

Then Sado. Barracks, temple, citizen destroyed, two defenders. Taken.

Army of *cav* formed, who are trained not only in the fine arts of
shooting rifles from horses, but in the firing of glorious artillery!!

1770 AD (5) - The wisdom of this bloodlust is immediately questioned...

Here comes the Russian Armada. Enough to blockade any port.

Here comes *SWARMS* of Samurai. Not wholely unexpected, but still...
dozens, just dozens come within range of our newly captured cities.

The Japanese ARMY runs past our army and brings a cadre of defenders
with it. We have one infantry attacked by a samurai and survive, go
elite vs a longbowman, defeat a second samuarai, then die to a third.
We start to wonder about mobilization, but realize we may not see full
peace for another 200 years...

Greece declares war on Japan! :hammer:
Rome declares war on Japan!
Greece declares war on Russia!
Rome declares war on Russia! (Come on Persia, attack me!)

The palace is expanded for all this glory! Now the turn begins...

Thirty-five. That's a stack of 35 Samurai, Cav, Muskets and who knows what.

Six cities, or mini-fronts in this war vs Japan. New Nara is being pounded
by mountain based artillery. New Kyoto is about to meet our Musket army.
Shimonoseki, home of the Japanese army, faces our Cavalry army. Sado,
which we just captured, is what sees the stack-o'doom approaching.
Cajun Village is 'our' city over there, which if things go south, will
get eaten alive. First step, shift over *ALL* remaining spare troops --
those from Bryansk, ALL artillery, and any defender past the first in
any city. This is for keeps.

New Nara loses its barracks and seems to have a musket and spear defender.
Our troops, in position from last turn, follow up this artillery barrage.
They shoot, they score! It's in a poor spot, and given the stack-of-doom
swagger Japan has, it seems like we'll never hold all we capture, and
so the city is set ablaze with the alcohol of cheap Saki! This also
lets us "collapse the front" from five or six cities to one less, and
shift those dozen units over toward New Kyoto.

Next priority, probably the Army. Huh?? Warrior-Archer-Pikeman?? lol!
Ours goes up against his, and we win without a scratch.

1772 AD (6) - The tridozen stack-of-doom decides to... retreat???! OK!
Only about 9 remain, the rest disappear. Heading for Greece I hope?
Greece and Rome both declare war on Persia.

We've got the draft, let's use it. The Indian cities are the first to, uh,
volunteer! :hammer: 42 Infantry drafted. Is that enough for one turn??

The fighting this round starts at New Kyoto. Soon down to size 7 and only
2hp or less defender rifles. They're softened, whittled down with cav
(losing two :( ), then our Army takes down the last Spearman. We decide
to keep this city due to it's central location and the new availability
of more garrison (the draftees).

Satsuma is next, and artillery tears down the barracks.
Shimonoseki? Harbor and Library set ablaze by glorious artillery fire!
:hammer: Outside the city, we cherrypick a 1hp Samurai with an elite M'eer.

Retreating all but 8 of your best Samurai is a lousy idea with a dozen
glorious artillery staring you in the face. They are softened up like a
hefty wad of salt water taffy. Then come the draftees, looking for death
or glory!! Not bad, no losses and three get promoted.

Back to Shimonoseki, the Cav Army follows the bombardment. It seems that
rifle he trampled is the only non-conscript... hmm... any cav left to
attack? Two it seems, it's that enough? Let's rock. Ha!! Precisely two
conscript rifle defenders. The city falls, and a Galleon inside sinks.

1774 AD (7) - Like watching a gripping movie between turns. There were three
subplots. First was "You thought you saw the armada earlier?? Ha! Here comes
the Armada!" Russian boats filled the ocean. They killed some citizens in
the peaceful citizenly village of Cod Piece. ("You have chosen unwisely!!")
They also started to shellack a few more villages, and have made reinforcement
via sea impossible at the russian-france contested island.
Second plot was "You think your conscripts are tough? Let them face FULL
strength Samurai!" The Sams won 3 in a row, then lost 3 in a row (phew),
making a conscript regular, then vet. Alas a longbowmen then killed him.
The last plot was a small one, called "Greek kickin' some Persian butt in
Susa."

Aramis finishes airport and starts on our first fighter. Likewise in
Rheims our first bomber. Toulouse seeks to contribute more air support.
(How will they fare vs ships?)

The 'seven' Samurai think that the oil near Confinium is easy pickins.
Boy are they mistaken. That zone is an artillery rats nest. It's gonna
be ugly. Alas, the conscripts were so helpful last round, gonna round up
just a handful more this turn. Only 24 this time :whip:

Cherbourg whines about the draft. So we draft one more from them.
"Anyone else got any problems???!"

Top threat the seven samurai at Corfinium. We start the shellacking there.
Very poor percentage, but pure numbers make up for it some. We send the
conscripts after the 1 and 2 hp sams. We lose about 5, see about 4 promoted
to regular, and all the samurai perish.

Oh my!! What's that hiding under a Japanese Spearman? A Great Leader??! :lol:
Hardeeharhar. Those two and a longbowman. WTH is he thinking?? (Hmmm, and
elite Samurai is next door, prolly came from there) Our elite swordsmen
is chosen to face the longbowmen of his era. He wins, but no GL.
OTOH, their GL falls to a conscript from Fort D'Charis. From the group that
ran up in our conscript counterattack, there are about 10 very mixed units
for Japan. We shell those with a dozen artillery then mop them up with
our cav. No losses, and two become elite. (Once again, getting great mileage
out of the relatively cav we have).

[ Preview of next post: ]

At Satsuma, the temple is destroyed and the city falls below size six.
Just two modern defenders, hmmm.. may be time to sack and raze it?
Make that size 5, no wait, 4. Send in the cavalry! After three, it falls.
Keep or raze?? It's virtually right next to Kyoto, bah. It's also an
oil-owning spot. Keep with massive conscript garrison sounds ok for now.

1776 AD (8) - Another fascinating in-between-turns movie. This one was
entitled "We're gonna sack Cod Piece and have evil relations with the
fish therein!!" It would have been a horror story if not for a surprise
ending. At the end of last turn it was surrounded by 8+ ships, a cossack,
infantry, longbow, warrior, and all we had was 3 artillery, 1 musketeer,
and a VERY injured infantry. The city was toast. I considered two choices.
First give the city away to Greece, to build up Japan-Greece hatred but
more importantly to transport our forces magically back home. Second choice
was the one I took. Sell off the infantry and all artillery, not taking
the risk of them falling in enemy hands, and let the lone Musketeer defend
the city for ONE turn - using the sold item shields to rush the airport.
If it survives, next turn air-drop in a scad of troops. Eight ships bombarded,
and did nothing. The warrior pillaged, the longbow took off one point, the
Cossack somehow lost, and promoted us to elite! :hammer: The infantry tried
but really, what kind of match is he for the glory that is the Musketeer??!?

The side-plot was that Japan streamed 21 samurai *OUT* of a city I'm fixin
to sack, and in the open, just short of attacking to re-take a city I now
hold with the Musketeer army. Pure weed, in unadulterated form!! :smoke:

Finally, 26 Japanese troops show up at the doorstep of Satsuma. Maybe
razing would have been better?!?

Hmmm, F3 still shows troop count, just not location? Cool! 56 musket,
36 infantry, 12 artillery, 24 samurai. Just 24??? Wow, I can see 21 and
plan to kill each and every one THIS turn! :hammer: What does our ally
against Japan have? 61 Hoplite (cough), 59 infantry, 16 cav, 16 rifle.
How about Cathy? 17 Cossack, 101 Infantry and assorted pieces. Talk about
defense-heavy. Histogram shows a big spike in score and power recently.

Ok, three fronts this turn. i) Neo-Tokyo and the Samurai horde vs the M'eer
army. ii) The motley crew of 26 outside Satsumi, iii) Airlift into the Cod!

Tokyo/Kyoto... Standard procedure by now- artillery first, cav and/or
conscript rifles vs the sams. 23 shots later, nothing stands with more
than 2hp in their stack, and we're not done yet!! :hammer: well, we did
lose an infantry vs a pike, and one vs a longbow (!) but otherwise good results.
Another poor result: One conscript and a glorious M'eer lost vs a spearman (!)
The best result: Against superior numbers and a musketman in the mountain,
an unrenowned musketeer braved the odds and in the process...

A Great Leader, Richelieu, was born!!! :hammer:
(That oughta secure the UN). He may be found in... where else... Richelieu!

Samurai station... whittle, whittle, whittle. The only problem is that a
good shot left them with 2 hp, and half our infantry followups led to
their retreat out of range.

At this point, all but 4 artillery and all infantry have fired. Still
15 Samurai standing (but wickedly injured) and a hodgepodge of ancient
units in the mtns outside Satsuma. We can withstand the latter defensively,
but it would be a travesty to let 15 one-hp Samurai escape. The cav charge!
No losses, and one becomes elite. Masterful! The last Samurai is slain by
no less than our Musketeer Army!

The Cav Army heads to Satsuma to use its blitz ability to take out TWO
would-be defenders in the hills. We then wake up our vet inf and he goes
after a 1 hp musket, becoming elite. No more moves left to turn, but...
there are still too many crippled or obsolete undefeneded units at our
doorsteps. Now I start to leave empty some central cities to get in these
kills. I list them here just so I know to send them back next round!
M'eer from Tula to Sado, Bastogne to Sado, FortCharis to Sado (getting Elite),
Aramis, Magino, Dacca, Artillery Works to Satsuma. Inf from New Paris to Sado.
Wait, there's more! Like pulling your goalie, Jaipur, Kohlapur, Lahore.
We lost one Musketeer to a longbow, but killed the other 8 foes.
Hmm... I don't care much for those empty cities, better draft a few more. 21.

One last maneuver. Airlifts. Hrrmm... perhaps I have not chose wisely.
You can only airlift one unit per airport per turn??? Oops!! I was going
to airlift about 20 conscripts. We have 3 airports right now (Aramis, Rheims,
Toulouse) and one due in Athos next turn. Better make a few more before the
Armada bombards the Cod Piece airport! I go to check to see what peace offers
might be taken (not that I would, with 18 turns left in the MPP and world war,
at a minimum). Japan won't see our envoy (and Russia and Persia). What a
bozo!

1776 AD is an auspicious year. So much so I'm going to stop two turns early
and pass it on.

Toward the end I thought things went pretty well but it seemed a tad slow
and the number of cities taken small for all the effort. Then I beheld the
carnage, and the attitude, and counted Japan's forces. They've been
decimated. They've thrown all they have at us, and have gotten mowed down.
Wave after wave to their death, but those waves will soon be trickles, then
backwash as they run back to try to defend vs Greece. In that campaign, I
mean, sheesh, I would say "20 Samurai in the open!? Ha ha! Fresh meat!!"
That being said with about 8 cav and 20 conscript riflemen to attack.
That and 24 artillery in that venue. The most staggering point is how LOW
our casualties were. One cav if any, about two muskets, and a smallish
number of infantries. Surely our French Artillery is most glorious!!

KEY notes for Jaffa and upcoming leaders...

- Satsuma is under tremendous pressure due to being so close to their capitol
and no culture, and small borders. The temple was just whipped this round,
but you *must* keep a *large* defender garrison there (I'm not sure if
artillery count). With all our guns there, *and* our best Army, we do NOT want
to see it flip. Basically, each of the 21 squares under foe's culture border
count JUST as much as a foreign national! So please keep 15-18 units there
until the borders expand, then 6-10!! Rush the temple as soon as the resistance
ends (likely this turn) - you may need to do it in two <39 steps rather than
one (ie rush Longbowman but immediately switch to temple and whip again).
- Airlift units into Cod Piece and start to kick some Russian butt!
Likewise, get a battleship or two in the water soon and break the blockade.
(Monte Crisco is building our only ship right now, keep as destroyer or
switch to Battleship before it completes.)
- My intended objectives or new borders were: Satsuma (with large garrison),
Echizen is capable of being razed in next turn or two, Neo-Tokyo is a keeper
to have rails in our territory to press forward, and be sure not to stop
before Aggrippa or Sapporo - that way we have a 'choke' point as well as
something solid to negotiate with :P We then own both southern choke points.
- It would be an option to (shudder) raze Kyoto. We're within 1-2 turns of
being in striking range with a ton of firepower.
- Spare workers for pollution are kept on the mountain south of Paris.
- Every single spare unit is already down South on the Japanese front.
Up North there is one defender per city (not a great idea for Athos and
Porthos and such)
- GL in Richilieu, Cav Army needs heal up in Satsuma, Musket Army is on
the prowl at Neo Tokyo.
- Take your time, there's a lot goin on...

Good luck!!
Charis

And to think, somebody called the founding of Cod Piece a weedy decision! But surely now, after these millenia, this colony must be embraced as a most glorious French City!

The M'eers there have *ahem* quite a sack of fish. :lol: :fish:

That's one big ole Cod Piece! :shotgun: :rotfl:

"So, our armies are in position! Very well, we shall prosecute the war with the vile French, forthwith!"

"But, sir, we are the French. You have the map upsidedown."

"WHAT! But I always fight against the French! Oh, very well, we shall prosecute the war with the vile .. umm .. other people!"

This looks like it was just a GREAT turn, Charis.

And it was very interesting to see a same yet different take on the
situation, and see how it came out. I've turned over SG's in mid-war, but
always before I only had a couple of specific ops running and as for the
rest I was just working a very general plan. In this case, I had a detailed,
multi-columned operation envisioned that would have taken 10-15 turns to
unfold, so I was just fascinated to see what actually transpired.

As it turns out, I'm pretty happy you were the one in charge, as I think
your results speak for themselves. I will guarantee you one thing,
though-the way I was going to do it would have burned a lot more of our
units, and if a single Cav survived it would have been luck 8-0. I was glad
to see the infantry glut I burped out in my years (not to mention your
eye-popping draft) served their intended purpose of protecting our glorious
artillery and their Musketeer masters. Sorry about the Arty numbers,
though-is there an easy way to see the number of cities you have?

I think it is also great that, as the creator of this concept, you got to
actually spend a turn USING the Musketeers and Arty to do some serious
damage. Let me rephrase that. SEROIUS DAMAGE. Quite apart form taking cities
and fighting a colonial war, you destroyed close to 70 Samurai in, what, 6
turns? Holy Smokes! Can you imagine what HIS SG write-up of his turn to the
other AI's would look like? He'd commit ritual suicide before submitting
something that embarrassing!

Good luck Jester. This ought to keep you busy for a while 8-).

Allons enfants de la Patrie
Le jour de gloire est arrivé!

--Cy

ps-what do y'all use for your screenies? I am apparently missing something
here. The only way I know to make screenies is to hit "Print Screen", but
that just puts a copy on the clipboard and so you have to tab out of the
game and do something with it. And when I paste it into Photoshop, the
palate shifts or something and it looks hideous. What program are you using
to crop/edit/draw on the screenies, and is there a good way to manage them?

Cy: I'm going to rib you a bit tomorrow night for misidentifying Foxy. I'm sure he's OK with it, though. By now, he's got to be pretty fluent in Cy-Speak. :lol: :beer:


EDIT: as for screenies, I paste into Lview (need a copy? I have a nagware version lying around with a trial period) and from there, crop and repaste into another instance of Lview -- or, if I want to add dots, I paste into MS Paint (no giggling), add whatever I want, then copy and paste back into Lview, where my jpegs are compressed, lose a bit of color but save lots of bandwidth. (No one has ever complained).

- Sirian

I go *REAL* low tech on the screenies... I use MS Word!

Paste into word, overlay a letter if I want with a text box, then
"Save as HTML" which converts the doc into html and jpg. I post the jpg then toss the .htm and .doc.

Now, as far as your detailed operational plan, I would REALLY love to see it! Especially since you had some very specific ideas in mind. A lot of the 'muscle' came from conscript. I drafted how many, about 80?? I just hope I didn't slaughter the cities TOO much doing that. None went into major unhappiness, and I tried to spread out the drafting, not just same cities.

Half way through I did make it a concerted effort to push the artillery usage and see just how much I could minimize losses. Two AI moves stick out in my mind. The first was round one, their turn, after I started the war. Units came *pouring* out, everywhere, in far greater number than my attackers. That led to the first multi-dozen drafting. There was a big "gulp" at the one. After the brutalization began, turning in our favor, the move of 21 samurai out of the city I was about to siege and into the open fields, not even forest or hill, was a laugh. The cool thing was... I could come at an angle such that if they retreated, they would be left with 1 hp *and* in my territory. So I could (and did) draft a conscript and transport him fully cross-country on rail to kill the durn sams.

Does it not occur to the AI to sue for peace when the first two rounds of war go about 39:3 in kill ratio? The Musketeers will be useful for some time, which is good to see. The AI seems to have mixed defenders. I let cav or inf take on the inf or regular rifles, M'eers could easily handle wounded rifles and pikes. Also, with SO much artillery around, I did need well over a dozen M'eers just to man the guns. As their numbers dwindle (and they will), we'll need to raise more armies just to be able to fire our glorious artillery! :hammer:

If it's not obvious, here was my specific approach to the war. On every turn I would...
i) prioritize my objectives for that round,
ii) fire artillery at the highest objective until no defender had more than 2hp, then go to next highest objective. If at end more artillery shots left, I would either fire to get from 2hp to 1hp or let the extra arts move into better position for next turn
iii) units 2 steps away in enemy territory could only be hit with ground forces if a cav used. Cavs were used ONLY for this purpose, hence the low mortality rates.
iv) adjacent units (or adjacent after rail travel) were attacked with ground units with enough advantage for about a 90-95% chance of victory, but no more - ie use regular inf vs inf, conscript inf vs rifles, m'eers vs pikes, and yes, swordsmen vs longbows.
v) if at end of turn there were still 1hp ground units left to kill, i would draft a few extra conscripts and hunt them down
vi) use my top defenders to move on top of and guard strong but vulnerable units, ie cavs and M'eers.

You can also see why my turn took about 9 hours :P

Charis

The refusal of the AI to talk to the player under ANY circumstances for at least a specific number of turns is in the game to reduce the value of betrayal. Players who would attack the AI, then get conditions in a peace treaty only to turn around, attack again, breaking their word, get another peace treaty, etc etc etc etc...

There are probably better ways of addressing this problem, but this is what we have to cope with for the moment. The AI works really well, as long as it has plenty of units and the player does not yet have rails+artillery. After rails come along, the AI's "strategy" dries up and it's just pathetic.

Sadly, I don't expect that to be improved much. Firaxis is showing NO SIGNS WHATSOEVER of increasing the AI's priority on city defense. Three units per city works great in the ancient age, but once rails come along its a total laugh, leading to the kind of idiocy demonstrated by them moving all their defenders OUT of the city to go pillage some useless roads or attempt to march unmolested through half your territory to reach some city in your back lines that its routines tells it would be easy pickins. It's just sad.

I don't think multiplayer would work much better, though. Don't games of that sort always break down to massing the most effective one or two troop types and attacking immediately? The defender would have the advantage with rails, big time, but I wouldnt expect games to last that long, as players would just mass as many ancient units as they could and go on a tear.


- Sirian

Merf. Seven turns at over an hour per turn is enough for me :)

Highlights:

The Three original Musketeers oversee the capture of Neo-Tokyo, then head west to coordinate our asasult on the Japanese capital itself! A grand triumph for our troops, as I drag in every last cavalry unit anywhere on the continent to take out the last Japanese defenders :hammer:

The Three new Musketeers (yes, a second Musketeer army :) ) make steady progress through the southern Japanese lands, capturing New Edo, New Kagoshima, Agrippina and Sapporo.

Our cavalry army leads the glorious assault on Echizen :D

Lowlights:

Our cavalry army dies to a conscript infantryman :(

A Japanese spearman on a hill outside Echizen takes out a swordsman, conscript infantry, regular infantry and elite musketeer before a herioc vet musketeer finally brings him down.

Madagascar is down to one defender per city (but we may be able to get New Ephesus to flip to us -- the Persians took it from the Greeks, and Bordeaux is now the culture-dominant city there).

Russians moved there blockade from Cod Piece to La Bastille (not sure why, possibly because I based fighters in Cod Piece). La Bastille will have an airport next turn, and needs reinforcements.

We have battleships! The first ones rolled off the production lines last turn, and are moving towards the active areas.

The Persians have been attacking us with laughably primitive troops -- they landed at Cod Piece with one immortal, four pikemen and three warriors (!)

I kept our workers busy selectively mining for improved production at cities which had reached their useful population limit.

It's 1790 at the end of my turn. We've just taken Kyoto and Sapporo. Possibly might want to find more troops to garrison Kyoto, to be safe.

Fetchez la vache!

Up next, Sirian (I think).

Got it.

Turn 1: Our Glorious M'eers.

Turn 2: More M'eer Stuff Happening.

Turn 3: M'eerly another fine glorious set of goings on.

Turn 4: Ditto.

Turn 5: Etc. Etc.

IT 1790AD: What is it about this game that dictates that I shall perpetually be handed the reigns to a kingdom light on infrastructure and HEAVY on corruption? Oh man oh man.

Vetoed virtually every military unit under production, ordered up about 7 million police stations, some courthouses, lots of coastal forts and some odds and ends.

Checked the diplo screen. My inquiries all met with insane laughter. Apparently, the diplo front is dead. (Wow, never seen it so bad). At least we have ongoing deals.

Military situation looks sound. I prepare to do my level best to exterminate all our cavalry units in daring offensives (backed, of course, by our glorious etc.)

1792AD: Three conscripts slain by samurai. Heh. I airlift a buncha stuff to Bastille, capture Nara (glorious, etc etc... M'eers, artillery, etc). Madagascar is under heavy attack. Their pleas for reinforcements, um... "get lost in the mail". :lol: Let them eat cake!

1794AD: Capture another Japanese city. Glorious, etc.

1796AD: Capture another Japanese city. Glorious, etc.

1798AD: Capture another Japanese city. Glorious, etc.

1800AD: The MASSIVE Russian Fleet at Bastille, having long cleansed our shores of all improvements, is finally chased off by an acculation of bombers. They had also landed some troops and marched some in, but those were eliminated (lost a cav in there somewhere -- TOLD you I was going to get rid of them all!) One of our glorious bombers (air artillery, and yes, properly "fired" by a M'eer ;) ) has destroyed a Russian harbor.

Madagascar is like... in some minor trouble. One lone infantry unit in each city. Mad King Sirios Louis has promised reinforcements. Meanwhile, the entire Persian navy is assaulting. That was not such a big deal when it was a few destroyers, but once it became STACKS, our two artillery could no longer chase them all away. Seven of the eight immortals that landed here have died, and a longbow, but all the land has been pillaged. Inf in both cities now elite. Our glorious artillery damages a destroyer into the red and I use our galleon in the area to attack! OH MOST GLORIOUS! Our galleon wins!!! :D

1802AD: Our galleon, unable to make it back to port, is sunk by a Persian ironclad. Our most glorious elite M'eers at Cod Piece prove their continuing supremacy by slaughtering a unit of cossacks roughed up by our bombers. I finally get around to attacking Tokyo. Our glorious etc etc inflict massive damage while our cavs and our first tank move into attack position.

1804AD: Capture another Japanese city. Glorious, etc. Our first tank rolls off the assembly line.

1806AD: Capture another Japanese city. Glorious, etc.

1808AD: North Madagascar finally succumbs to the stack of ships bombarding. Every improvement already destroyed and population reduced to one, our elite infantry is now reduced to a single hp and is defeated by an Immortal. The folks down in Bordeaux receive more assurances from Mad King Louis that reinforcements are on the way. (What year they are due to arrive, was not specified). :lol:

Ya know... if only the AI would use some bombardment like that ON LAND, too, they would be less of a paper tiger. They took out a fortified elite infantry with smoke and mirrors, thanks to a massive stack of seaborne artillery ('stroyers, 'clads). Somebody (probably Charis) is going to take exception to the now-boastful claims of the Persians about their "glorious naval artillery" and have to go sink all those fleets. Me? I'm not going to worry about those colonies. Let them eat cake! :rotfl:

And yes, I DO have a transport (empty) moving in that direction. Should get there by the next time my turn comes around. :crazyeyes

There's even more heat happening up at Cod Piece. WELL over a dozen Russian cossacks slaughtered, and some Persian cavs that landed, some longbows and yes, now even infantry are coming. I actually airlift a couple tanks over there. (Hey, Cod Piece may be just another useless colony, but it was specifically founded by Mad King Louis lo those centuries ago, and it must not fall!) Well, OK, that's mostly BS. If it didn't already have an airport, there would be a lot of cake-eating happening there too. :lol: But... since there is an airport, might as well use it.

Not costing us much to fend off the AI there. I could have done it down on Madagascar, too, but it didn't occur to me in time to whip airport out (would have to do it EARLY in my reign).


All told, captured over a dozen Japanese cities, founded about half a dozen more in gaps in their lands. Some settlers still in production. FINALLY got our infrastructure up and rolling. My first seven turns were all smoke and mirrors, we dropped to less than a dozen cavalry, and were getting spread pretty thinly. Now... NOW I've got a mass of our best cities cranking out tanks. I built 25 of them in just three turns, only lost one in combat.

Cy should find the situation in decent shape. I even left him a few attacks all set up and ready to go next turn. Yes yes, with our glorious most glorious etc etc in place and ready to unleash the torrent of misery upon the foe.

All I ask is that cities where I have a massive garrison in place... those troops aren't on vacation, they're there for a reason. Give that some thought before you move them? Cool.


Oh one more thing. I decided we needed a summer home for our most awesome elete Musketeers, and their glorious big guns. Every time I needed some artillery, it was a chore to go hunt it down. Now, all I have to do (and all you have to do) is say, "Hey you! Come here."

Yes indeedy, in the desert was found the city of Hayu K'M'eer. My last turn, I used every piece of artillery we had (every last one, I think) and so none are found in the storage city, but that's a good place to J-train them (stack movement) for storage between turns when you have nothing for them to be doing. Not just the artillery, but the surplus M'eers, so you can always find one whenever you need to drag one to some remote shore to shoot at passing ships.


- Mad King Sirios

Oh one more note: Rome and Persia have finally collapsed into Anarchy. (See? I had a plan for those "useless" Madagascar colonies after all. ;) ). I hope the Persians are happy trading their democracy for one "glorious victory" over an unreinforced city with ONE unit on defense. They fired so many shots, at least one seems to have hit them in the foot. :lol: :lol: ;) :whipped:

Not before they researched radio, though. I was shocked to see our ETA halved from 21 turns down to 12 on my final turn. If they broker the tech to Russia and Japan, that should help us even more. I also left Jaffa's leader alone. We could probably have had two more by now if I used him, but we had no NEED for a rushjob or another army, while the value of rushing the UN when you do NOT have a commanding tech lead and the whole world hates you... is not to be underestimated.

Here's a peek at our Most Glorious Three Musketeers dealing with a sneak attack by Persia, who landed three galleons of troops next to a city in our back lines with just a swordsman in it at the time. (Ya know... if railroads were eliminated from the game, the AI's would perform SO much better. They really badly desperately need some new routines for coping with the post-rail era).

Question: Can we achieved Domination before our time runs out and we back into a Cultural Victory? I don't think so.

Holy Smokes!

I loaded up the save game, and eeek! This is going to take a while.

I'll try to have it done tonight.

Smokes.

--Cy

Sirian - great posts. I was absolutely howling at several spots.
Must have been a 'glorious' campaign, as the word was used 16 times
(as determined by the asbestos-laden subterfugicallysarcastic meter :P )

> What is it about this game that dictates that I shall perpetually be handed
> the reigns to a kingdom light on infrastructure and HEAVY on corruption?
> Oh man oh man

(This was one of the funny lines) On the bright side... now we can look
and see "oops, right-o" instead of "wth is he doing with a courthouse?! veto,
veto, veto).

Also liked:
> One of our glorious bombers (air artillery, and yes, properly "fired" by a M'eer)
...
> Our glorious artillery damages a destroyer into the red and I use our galleon
> in the area to attack! OH MOST GLORIOUS! Our galleon wins!!!
Sniff... that's just touching!! So they've become gunnery pilots?! Wow.

> Somebody (probably Charis) is going to take exception to the now-boastful claims
> of the Persians about their "glorious naval artillery" and have to go sink all
> those fleets. Me? I'm not going to worry about those colonies. Let them eat cake!
lmao - I think I'm going to personally ask 'Deacon' to recommission the USS Charis
and oversee this VITAL task!! :hammer: Darn tootin' I'm gonna respond! (Someday)

> If it didn't already have an airport, there would be a lot of cake-eating

happening there too. But... since there is an airport, might as well use it.
...
>Oh one more note: Rome and Persia have finally collapsed into Anarchy. (See? I
> had a plan for those "useless" Madagascar colonies after all. ). I hope the
> Persians are happy trading their democracy for one "glorious victory" over an
> unreinforced city with ONE unit on defense. They fired so many shots, at least
> one seems to have hit them in the foot.
Lol!

Good job holding out at Madagascar as long as you did, and the result of
Persia hobbling itself made it all worthwhile. I do however, have a dream
for Cod Piece and Bastille. My vision is for them to hold out under endless
onslaught, be battered hard, and then... the gas runs out, the counterattack
begins, and that whole bloody island comes under the GLORIOUS control of France!!
This would tickle me to no end :D
> cranking out tanks. I built 25 of them in just three turns, only lost
> one in combat.
wowza, good deal! The new 'eras' of combat are coming quickly! Not long ago
horses and cats, soon M'eers and canons, Infantry and artillery, now enter the
age of the tank, all the much better for artillery support! Before long, the
GLORIOUS entry of French Marines and Paratroopers will warm the cockles of all
they who love France!! :hammer:

Hey... btw, there is not a single democracy left! Rome is Monarchy, the rest
Communist. Hehehe...

> Yes indeedy, in the desert was found the city of Hayu K'M'eer.
The very best "line" of the thread!!! :lol:
Hmmm, 78 M'eers left?? Excellent, casualties have been small. Our nations
greatest nonrenewable resource!

> Ya know... if railroads were eliminated from the game, the AI's would perform SO

much better. They really badly desperately need some new routines for coping with

the post-rail era

Nod... so true. If/when you do make your 'Environmentalist' scenario, I'm in.
To avoid having to pillage every square in captured land, how about requiring
Aluminum and Uranium to make railroads?? (Not sure if worker can 'turn off'
make-railroad task, that would of course be easier)

> Cy should find the situation in decent shape. I even left him a few attacks all
> set up and ready to go next turn. Yes yes, with our glorious most glorious etc
> in place and ready to unleash the torrent of misery upon the foe.
He's either going to love or hate this turn, but he'll be busy! :P

> Question: Can we achieved Domination before our time runs out and we back into a

Cultural Victory? I don't think so.

RBD5 - victory conditions enabled: Diplomacy, Cultural, Conquest

Culture in 1810 - 56954
Culture in 1812 - 57581
Culture per turn - 627
Culture to 100K - 42419
Turns to reach - 68 (at this rate)
#turns to 1950 - 69 turns!
Projected cultural victory NO LATER THAN 1950.
With many temples and such coming up on 1000 year bonus,
could happen much earlier.

Single city 20K ? Athos is at 12,365 in 1812,
gaining 81 per turn, so 152 turns needed. We'll get it
for country, not city, if at all. Given our rep, building
UN will be for defense, not offense :P

So the good news is... this game should surely be a victory, and the madness
will NOT go on more than 70 turns into 1950. :P
The bad news is... we'll never live long enough to see radar artillery or
complete a full-world conquest. But we'll see how close we can come.

Techs?? At about 15 for Amphibious, 22 for Advanced Flight, and 35-40 for
Fission or any modern techs (at an affordable rate) there are likely 2-4
techs left in the game, period! Greece doesn't even have mass production,
and Rome doesn't have steel! Russian and Persia have Radio. So we won't be
"buying" ones from brilliant democracies either. *Special request* for upcoming

kings!! After Radio, please get Advanced Flight (Glorious Paratroopers),
Amphibious Warfare (Semi Glorious Marines) next. Then depending on situation,
Fission to safety-build the UN (GL already ready), or Rocketry to pump out
Cruise Missiles.

At 10 turns each, everyone should have only one turn left, or some with two
turns. Given that it will be war-war-war from here out and the length of
turns, let me remind folks that it's *max* of 10 turns. Feel free to hand
earlier. You'll either get one massive ten-turn player turn or two more
manageable 5 to 7-turn turns. I'm not sure how much longer Japan will last
vs Tanks, but finish them off! The assaults begging after that are...
airlifted victory on Cod Piece/Bastille island vs Russia, a full fledged marine
invasion of Persian colonies, and whoever wants to come get some, a special
paratrooper suprise attack. Have any of you used these guys since Civ2 ?!
Can you put one ground pounder on a helicopter on a carrier? (Can artillery
be lifted via helicopter? Or do we need to land and whip an airport?! :P )

We're winding down folks, stand strong! (GL Cy)
Charis

I'm jammed up at home--I'm gonna pass this round.

--Cy

Single city 20K ? Athos is at 12,365 in 1812,
gaining 81 per turn, so 152 turns needed.

Is that that New Math I keep hearing about? :)

Some points to consider:
1) This ain't RBD3. Our opponents have massive numbers of infantry on defense.
2) Some of them will have flight soon, and tanks of their own.
3) We can't blitz. Even with the "bombers can serve as requisite city bombardment" clause, they only have so much range and human beings can only coordinate so much planning. Pretty much, it's you pick a city, you take 2-3 turns to attack and take it out. I exhausted our forces prior to the tanks.
4) We are stretched to the limit on unit garrisons.
5) Our units are going to go up at a faster pace than our free unit allotment.
6) We are unbelievably topheavy on city maintenance. I predict science down to 30% by the end of the next player's turn, and down to 20% before the end of the game.
7) Corruption IS slowly getting worse and worse... and worse. Athos lost 3 shields per turn on my turn, or maybe 4. EVERY city in our empire lost a similar ratio, but what's worse, we are losing gold too, to more corruption, while our costs are going up up up.
8) We can't rushbuy temples with cash, must use population. In some spots, that ain't gonna happen quickly.
9) There is NO hope of going back to Democracy, any war with the three powers we're against now would (I believe) instantly collapse us again.
10) Do you have any idea how far short of domination we still are at this point?

I'm rather certain that we'll win by culture before we CAN win by domination. If I'm wrong... I'll go eat some cake. :)


- Sirian

Is that that New Math I keep hearing about?

:blush: No, that's, uh... weed math! (Would be #turns if we NEEDED 12K, not had 12K) It's 95 turns, less than for 'civ' cultural victory. (That gaff is like you having a sentence with two misspellings and an incomplete sentence all in one shot!)

> 1) This ain't RBD3. Our opponents have massive numbers of
> infantry on defense.

Our glorious musketeers shall pound them and show them the utter folly of their ways!!!!! :hammer:
(Well, with tank 'backup' perhaps ;p )

> Pretty much, it's you pick a city, you take 2-3 turns to attack
> and take it out. I exhausted our forces prior to the tanks.
Pretty much, aye. I was taking more turns, losing less forces, but that's it.

> We are unbelievably topheavy on city maintenance. I predict
> science down to 30% by the end of the next player's turn, and
> down to 20% before the end of the game.

Correct again. We'll get our two optional industrial age techs and that's it.

> Corruption IS slowly getting worse and worse... and worse.
> Athos lost 3 shields per turn on my turn, or maybe 4. EVERY city
> in our empire lost a similar ratio, but what's worse, we are
> losing gold too, to more corruption, while our costs are going
> up up up.

Hmmm... so you mean... it's a GOOD thing it won't come down to conquest or 2050 victory?

> There is NO hope of going back to Democracy, any war with the
> three powers we're against now would (I believe) instantly
> collapse us again.

Agreed, we've crossed the Rubicon.

> Do you have any idea how far short of domination we still are
> at this point?

Well... infinitely short. In the immortal words of Inyego Montoya... "I'm not sure that word means what you think it means." Uh, no, that's not it either. What I mean is...

Domination is disabled.

> I'm rather certain that we'll win by culture before we CAN win
> by domination. If I'm wrong... I'll go eat some cake.

New math or not, we would get a culture victory due to nation > 100K in the year 1950 if keep status quo and make no changes to our current culture per turn.

Failure to rush build new temples means we can't expect much of an addition to culture from new cities. The reason we're GOING to win by culture, and before 1950, however, is that any cities which produced temples, libraries, cathedrals, wonders or any other culture producing improvement, between 850 AD and 950 AD are going to have their bonus doubled soon. Let me not shoot from the hip on this though - if I go back to the 900 AD save file I see NINE such improvements being built, so our culture per turn to increase about 25 per turn from the 1000 yr bonus.

I'm also encouraged by the histogram. Have you ever seen a player lose after getting to 45% of total world power and climbing? F3 also tells us Russia and Persia have a huge defensive character in their army make up, and Japan's army is basically down to 25 infantry, period.

Still... points well taken, thanks. I probably sounded too much like "it's in the bag" when instead I was trying to figure out "hey, how ARE we likely to achieve victory, and when?!" Garrison building in our core cities (or sheesh, at least our big wonder/culture ones) would probably be a good idea. Let's hope we can both enjoy victory cake soon! If it's post-1950, I assure you, i shall ask for ketchup to help wash down my cake!

Cy, I hope all is well... good wishes then to... eep!! Me????
Unless Zed is hopping in asap (unlikely with weekend ending and this not a "Mrs"-pleasing game"), I'll be taking it. (Figures... ironic I've had a full day with no games, scanning for posts ready to take one, and noting one by one me coming "on deck" in no less than FOUR. Just got home now and wondering if more than one turned into "you're up!")

Charis

Domination is disabled? Well then we're definitely not going to win that way! Sirian: Duh. :crazyeyes

However, we're not going to win by conquest either, and we're NOT going to win by 100000 total culture, because that also requires MORE THAN double your next closest rival, and um... Greece has more culture than we do. That qualifies as "more than half" -- unless there is more to this New Math than I realize. :lol:

On the other hand, the chance that someone else will build the UN in that time is the one means by which we might lose. I can just imagine Greece building it and, at war with us by then, racking up four "Yes" votes (Japan gone by then) to our own singular vote for ourselves.

If you are NOT going directly for Fission after Radio, then may I suggest not leaving that leader sitting around doing nothing. Use him to make an army. Or something.


- Sirian

:: Charis and Sirian seem to be passing back and forth the 'weed pipe' this eve!! ::

I did NOT remember that 100K victory requires that total be double next nearest civ while 20K in a city does not. There's no way at all we have a shot at the former, so what about the latter?....

Athos!!!! Due for cultural victory in 1973 AD if he's not captured or nuked and if no new wonders before then.

The weed pipe is DEEPLY inhaled, with another "10 min" mess up. I miss Sirians post until right after I finish the Pentagon...
... in Paris :eek: !

Still, it's only a 29 turn setback, or 3 player rounds. World research is just crawling with all in communism, so after all Industrial Techs are done, there's STILL only time for one tech, or at most two. Hmmm, any science civ will be able to get two.

I'm about 1/2 way done with the turn. Going much more smoothly now I'm a groove with it. So far it's going extremely well, Japan has just run out of gas, now their cities will start to fall even faster. :hammer:

With this new info, now I'm thinking Fission before the other two optionals, get UN in Athos, then steal the two via Espionage,
or demand them for peace.

> If you are NOT going directly for Fission after Radio, then may I suggest not leaving that leader sitting around doing nothing. Use him to make an army. Or something.

How about make an army then the *second* attack in the game after that, get another new leader? :P I came to same conclusion and figured more armies with Pentagon backup would be most helpful and we had lots of time and tons of battles to re-get a leader. He's been saved a few turns, but now I think I'll reinvest him in an army. We have too many elites around killing things, to sit on this new leader!

Charis

ICQ 152509245
i want to join a game!!!!!!

Originally posted by Lokee
ICQ 152509245
i want to join a game!!!!!!


There is a open game right now, LK14 - Russia - Anyone plays.
You cna play a turn provided at least one other player took a move.

1802AD: <SNIP> Our glorious etc etc inflict massive damage while our cavs and our first tank move into attack position.

Right, 1802, tank moves into attack position.

1804AD: Capture another Japanese city. Glorious, etc. Our first tank rolls off the assembly line.

Yep, 1804, the first tank rolls off the assembly line. Good thing it was in position to attack two years earlier.

Now, who's :smoke:?

:lol:

You two crack me up.
Arathorn

After the new math advisor was fired for smoking weed imported from India,
Jean Paul d'Charis took the reigns in the middle of a loooooong and arduous
campaign. Yet he knew this was only the beginning of a time that would show
no let up, so he girded his loins. (And OUCH did THAT hurt!!!)

1810 AD (0) - Fifteen japanese cities left. Two have a glorious French
horde at their front door. If I look back since when war with Japan
started, there were 47 in 1760, 39 in 1776, 33 in 1790, 15 in 1810.
Loss rate averages 1.33 cities per turn. Voila!! Due to be extinct in
ten years! Well that sure makes for a nice 'goal'
If Bordeaux holds out it will be a miracle, and if we can just keep
something alive at Cod Piece for 10 more turns, they can get full attention
after that. Richelieu... do we really want to keep him around all the way
to UN build?? If we lose an army and fail to get three in the field
when we build an army in 3 turns, I might just let that boy loose!
The AI need all optional tech before they can go into modern era, and we
could probably out build it anyway, and we CAN prebuild it... sure could
use a Tank Army right about NOW! Thoughts of pentagon arise...

Porthos, Aramis and Athos get together and decide...
... our armies *MUST* make room for a 4th member... D'Artagnon!!!! :hammer:
All for One and One for All concur, and Richileu lathers the glorious
rabble into a frenzy from which...

... a tank army emerges! (Hold off on weed discussions til after turn plz ;p )
Paris, home of the Heroic Epic and The "Academie", is switched over to
Pentagon!

1812 AD (1) - Quite a show by the Persian navy! Vs Cod Piece just one cav,
retreats. Japanese longbowmen take the fields to face the tanks.
Alex has had enough of the MPP. We say "oh come on Alex!! How about if
we toss in Gems and Ivory and you toss in Trade Embargoes, just for the
heck of it? He's very gracious at this offer. Several Tanks done, and
a police station even. D'Charis makes the *utmost* effort not to veto
any police stations! He's making a lot of requests of 'future leaders'
and so must respect the wishes of others as well...

The French and 1812... D'Charis hears the strange sounds of an unfamiliar
tune run though his head and has the STRANGEST urge to invade Russia!!???
"Perhaps when winter comes, he thinks!"

Just now he looks at the stack of artillery outside Syracuse! :eek:
How GLORIOUS!! Thank the heavens we have Jacques here to man these
contraptions!! :hammer:

Eastern front - Ise is shellacked, losing all citizens but one, its
marketplace, library, cathedral and bank. THEN the tanks roll...
First one barely wins, second one is an elite one and we see...

* DE GAULLE * A new leader! :lol:
Well ok, ends-justifies-the-means validates the choice to use Richilieu
(not that I subscribe to that theory!) Cav unit takes the city.
He's sent to HyuK'Meer to ponder his next move. The thought of a glorious
Marine or Paratrooper army intrigue him!

Shift to Western front... bombard Syracuse (poof to Temple, Library,
Marketplace, Cathdral, all in first five shots! Then University, then it
looks like just two 1hp defenders. Syracuse falls. Our infantry grow elite
mopping up the longbows in the field.

1814 AD (2) - Cod Piece holds off and kills another Cossack (it and other
city their got a tank each last round). Bordeaux, on the other hand,
lost its Coastal Fortress on the first salvo, then its temple and courhouse
and all but last citizen. Yet the sole Infantry held, and a barracks
rushed last turn made good use of one citizen that would have been killed
anyway :P Rome and Japan sign a peace treaty. (That won't do!)

Japan wants to talk peace, and offers five cities. Tempting, but no.
Here comes a Samurai ;P Nothing flipped mid-turn, good. (Virtually
all garrisons placed by last leader were kept for that reason)

Just one defender in Arretium?? We're now seeing phase 2 of
'running out of gas', not only no offense, now the defense is gone.
Er.. a second defender. A spearman is crushed under our treads :hammer:

Back on the West front, Izumo is next. It's reduced down to size 5.
Three defenders killed, now down to conscripts. Maybe next round...

On the far east, Edo is put in the crosshairs. At least 3 defenders,
Cathedral smashed along with Police and Temple, and down to size 6.
Just below that, Nagasaki barracks destroyed. At the end we whip about six
temples in the captured Japanese territory (remember, no cash just peeps,
as we're in communism)

1816 AD (3) - There go the barracks at Bordeaux. OTOH, The Pentagon is
completed in Paris! :hammer: At end of 1814 we pulled Rome back in
with MPP for dyes, and now they declare on the Japanese.
Again no flips good. (The proximity of Osaka does make that an issue)

Izumo is crushed, buildings falling right and left. Two defenders it
looks like. It is captured, and now our monsterly glorious artillery
stack of doom is within range of Osaka! On the Eastern front, Edo falls.
Osaka barracks and marketplace destroyed by the expert bombing of our
glorious M'eer pilots!! Five or six cities set up to attack next round...

On Cod Island... Magnitorask drops below size 7. Well below. Then the
University and Harbor fall. (Hmmm... to Whomever got all these planes
over here... :love: )

1818 AD (4) - Greece and Persia sign peace treaty. Rome has the *BOLD*
audacity to ask a WORKER get himself out of THEIR territory on the
one square that keeps us from railroad connectivity to out latest
conquest. Well I don't expect war with Rome within 20, so offer an RoP.

Wowza!! Their longbowmen have been sipping Jolt cola or something!
Our first large group of casualties in a while. One longbow slays a
conscript infantry, then a second drives back a vet tank. Another
KILLS a tank (bah), then they snag a few workers they were closer
to than I thought. At Bordeaux there's almost nothing left to bombard.
Their immortal *ALMOST* pulls off victory, but our elite inf there
wins with 2hp left. (Hmmm, do we have a boat fast enough to get in
and drop off before getting creamed by the armada there?)
More than typical pollution this round too.

Culture check- 59482, up from 57581 in 1812. Then 627/turn, now 634/turn. :P
Updated cultural ETA- 1946ad. Ack! Weeeeed! Our SECOND math advisor is
fired!! I just read Sirian's post and I've forgotten it's not JUST 100K, but
you need double nearest rival. Not a chance in heck, others are way too close.
City culture? Needs 20K - Athos is our bet...

Barracks, temple, marketplace at Echigo fall, then Library, Bank,
Cathedral. Japan has got to be feeling very thouroughly demoralized and
brutalized at this point. Our four tanks at their door surge forward,
and sweep the city (losing one.) Hmm... to the far West, I note that
Selucia is no longer Japanese but Greek! Excellent, that one was over
mountains and much out of our way :P

Osaka... the new capital... our glorious tanks roll on the city.
One falls, but another comes behind it. Osaka has many defenders,
and we run out of tanks. Cavs??? Where are they?? "Sir, General Sirian
sent all but a dozen to the glue factory!" Eep! "Well find them and
get them to Osaka!" One, two are found, and they defeat 1hp inf.
Yet another defender seen. A careful study of the census shows two in
Tokyo on "anti-flip" detail. One wins, and a longbowman steps up to
defend their capital. He forces the cav to retreat!!? (Foiled!! We could
not get a glorious artillery up in range to bury the archer!)
Precisely two left, also on flip detail - Hakodate and Ise. "Cav, HO!"

Osaka falls! Just barely outside the city, covered by fog, is a stack of
reinforcements just a moment too late. Mostly middle age units too.
Now that rail connect us, infantry can be rode in to finish them.
Six resisters though, ugh. The capital moves next door, to Matsuyama.
Kyoto conscripts are moved up to Osaka, and some become regulars.

"Sir, there is one more item to report in the royal annals... By
next turn you will hear of either the glorious coup or the glorious
death of a battallion of combined arms!!??" :eek:

Before the end of the Japanese empire there is one concern. We actually
bother to get an accurate city count!! It looks like 5, but ah yes,
there is ONE city far far away, New Nagoya on Madagascar island. With
the Persian armada there, there's no way to take it this century.
This is a problem. If we make peace, it might hurt our relations with
Greece and Rome, otherwise we could take the city as tribute. Then again,
do we have any reputation left here at all?? A slightly crazed diplomat
is sent to talk...

1820 AD (5) - "Sir, the 'interim' report today shows there was a worldwide
epidemic of weed smoking, sir. I'm sad to say, some was smoked in your
court, but just as much was smoked in Japan!" "??? Explain"

It is a not-so-glorious death sir, an entire regiment drowned at sea.
A renegate general took pity for his daughter trapped in Madagascar
North and ordered a full transport be dispatched to try to save them.
He reasoned that if one infantry could hold out for twenty years, how
long could a battallion hold out, even under withering armada fire?
Well sir, he reports that the dreaded AI-can-scout-further-than-you-can
weed was on board the transport, and the battleship pounding Mad North
instantly smelled them 5 miles away and came to chew them up and spit
them out. A combined force of cav, inf, tank, and yes, a glorious M'eer
and artillery... we're lost at sea!" :eek:

More bad news sire. So fraught and upset were the people of Bordeaux,
their will to fight was gone. Walls crumbled, the harbor, now bereft
of its fortress, fell into the sea, and that last, brave, brave infantry
man, was slain. The general's daughter and a second worker were slain.

:sniper:

This is sad news indeed. Although it is this mad general's fault, the
King D'Charis took full blame. "Sir, do you want to hear what that General's
brother, the diplomat did?" D'Charis sank in his chair, waiting for worse
news. "He called together his good friends Alex and Caesar and said, 'Let
us see what kind of man this Tokogawa really is. We shall seek peace and
demand tribute. If on the next turn he fails to bellow and try to kick us
off our own land, then I am a warmongerer and I have failed your great
countries. But... if he curses and bellows and demands 'Leave or War!!'
then he shall have war, and a swift one! For your trouble Alex, I shall
split the spoils of war with you!! New Nagoya is all yours. Please take
this as a freewill offering!" (When you get a city as a 'demand' you get
*NO* defenders in it!!! That city is on the tip of Persia-dominated island
and literally has no hope. So it was used to build back any ill will, if
in fact there was any generated.)

So said the glorious king, and so it was done. And true to form, Tokogawa
did bellow and curse the very way of the Musketeer, and so we told him to
shove his threats so deep not even a M'eer cannon cleaning rod can get them
out. It was then that Tokagawa was seen to share the love for the weed...

He poured **12** of his very last units, defenders of his last city, OUT
of Matsuyama, and ran them towards the 'empty' city of Old Nagoya. They
did not make it and were trapped in open country on our rail line,
defenseless. What follows need hardly be mentioned.

The full, and I mean FULL force of glorious French artillery was brought
to bare on the LONE two japanese occupied squares. It was brutal. From
size 8 down to 1, and a mere two defenders, barracks and 7 other buildings
leveled. Lost one tank on an inf in the city, that's about it. Shooting
duck, let's try to promote practive on the field units :P

Oh, did I mention Persia now has bombers? :-\
New Kagoshima and Bayonne find this out.

-- continued next post

Passing after five long turns and Japan gone, we need new direction
and new glorious leadership!!! :hammer:

Cy?? If you're back, I think Jaffa is "up" in two other games. If not,
there's no rush, he can get this when done with the shorter ones.

Please note the following:
- I've saved you some time! *ALL* extra units that didn't lose their movement
this round are gathered at the glorious bar and grill at HyuKMeer. Census:
25 Tanks, 6 Artillery, 14 Infantry, 1 Great Leader, 2 Settlers, 7 Cavalry
and 4 glorious Musketeer gunners. Of these, 12 are elite units.
- Outside KMeer are our *three* armies, now full of four units, 2 Meer, 1 Tank,
and with an Army due from Paris soon, an Inf or Tank one coming.
- Resisters still found in Osaka, Nagasaki, Toyama, and Echigo, so they have
extra troops until rebellion over.
- EMPTY are our cities of Bizen, Caeasarea, Artaxata. That just happened last
turn when we got them as spoils, undefended. Can be filled in two rounds by
infantry or right now by a tank (from KMeer).
- Every other city has precisely ONE defender. A smart AI would crank marines,
but here, rail net will save us from almost any mainland attack.
- A monster artillery stack outside Nagoya. A LOT of spent troops inside too.
- Our bombers are mostly on Cod Island. Workers are in clumps and scattered.
- Most if not all airports still available this turn to airlift units to Cod
if that's your plan.
- You might be able to guess that the total liberation of Cod Island and the
annihilation of the Persians from Madagascar would be pleasing to no end.
Yet that call, next conquest or a breather, is up to you.
* ATHOS * is currently the key to victory, by 20K culture on or before 1973.
It should probably get more than (cough) one defender.
- Even our best friends will 'never accept' gpt, only cash.
- If you plan to keep fighting big time, feel free to make an army with the
GL and expect/hope for a new one by the time we get fission. Our research
rate and income are really stagnating, we may not even get Fission tech
before cultural victory at Athos.

Good luck Cy or Jman!
Charis

PS to Cy - should I put you on roster for rbd13, the Cretans? Looks like you
might already be taxed, although, that one is play-when-you-can.

Osaka has many defenders, and we run out of tanks. Cavs??? Where are they?? "Sir, General Sirian sent all but a dozen to the glue factory!"
:rotfl: :lol: :rotfl:


Yep, 1804, the first tank rolls off the assembly line. Good thing it was in position to attack two years earlier.

The tank from two years earlier was produced mid-turn by a scroll forward through cities to change a production order on the same turn the tech came in. That is NOT an assembly line. The first tank off the assembly came on the next turn.

Might have been ambiguous wording, but no :smoke: going on. :p


Wowza!! Their longbowmen have been sipping Jolt cola or something!
:lol:


Well sir, he reports that the dreaded AI-can-scout-further-than-you-can
weed was on board the transport, and the battleship pounding Mad North
instantly smelled them 5 miles away and came to chew them up and spit
them out. A combined force of cav, inf, tank, and yes, a glorious M'eer
and artillery... we're lost at sea!

Woops!

Um, hey... didn't I mention that those folks were left to eat cake? If I had known Cy was going to have to pass, I'd not have moved that transport in that direction, because I would have known you would try to save them. :) A whole transport and OUR GLORIOUS MEERS? Oh no.

Woops! :fish:

Glad you enjoyed the turn! I certainly enjoyed the report.


- Sirian

Um, hey... didn't I mention that those folks were left to eat cake? If I had known Cy was going to have to pass, I'd not have moved that transport in that direction, because I would have known you would try to save them. A whole transport and OUR GLORIOUS MEERS? Oh no.

Ha!! :lol:

Darn, you're so right! The bravery of that one infantry man holding up to a half dozen immortals and SCADS of naval bombardiers was too much to gaze upon and not melt! :hammer:

Now the question is... how to get our 100 spare tush-kicking troops into the maw of Persian or Russian land when we are totally owned at sea? BTW, I was too scared to even look and see how many shields our core and palace cities are losing due to corruption now, with nothing razed, all captured on that turn.

Charis

>>Cy?? If you're back, I think Jaffa is "up" in two other games. If not,
there's no rush, he can get this when done with the shorter ones. <<<

I'm still pretty booked. I'll see Jaffa tonight in the Summoning Team game and see how he is doing.


>>PS to Cy - should I put you on roster for rbd13, the Cretans? Looks like you
might already be taxed, although, that one is play-when-you-can.<<<

It would be a bit before I could work a turn in. Besides other stuff, I'm going to be at the Races this weekend, and Monday too, if the current weather report is right 8-(.

--Cy

My next good block of time for playing in big-huge-scary-mofo games would be Friday, if Cy wants to fit in a turn before then? Or if Charis and Sirian want to fit in a whole 'nother round :)

--
Jaffa

Now the question is... how to get our 100 spare tush-kicking troops into the maw of Persian or Russian land when we are totally owned at sea?

Two words: Air. Ports. ;)

Look how easy it is to reinforce in the Infantry game with adequate airports for sending, at home (in line with troop production rate) and a target to send to. Sure, getting a foothold could be a problem, so... where are those Helicopters? :)

:shotgun: :shotgun: :shotgun:

BTW... I'd be happy to take another round, maybe play five turns, unless Cy is ready to step to the plate.

- Sirian

Two words: Air. Ports. Look how easy it is to reinforce in the Infantry game with adequate airports for sending, at home (in line with troop production rate) and a target to send to. Sure, getting a foothold could be a problem, so... where are those Helicopters?

Hehe... yes, it was the 'foothold' aspect that led to my comments. Getting TO the island looks just brutal. The one transport that I did try to 'sneak' through was lept on, slain, chewed up, and had its hide used as a cloak. I thought about helicoptors, but... I think we have a range problem. I asked in one game (here?) if you could put one unit in a helicopter then put the helicopter on a carrier? If so, with carrier capacity of 4, do you then get 2 filled-copters or 4 ? Haven't tried paratroopers yet (!) as I've always passed on the tech, so I'm unfamiliar with their range or how you might get them on a copter or carrier.

The foothold difficulty was also why I was trying so hard to keep Madagascar and Cod Piece. With airports in place at the latter, we can definitely "win" on that island in contention with Russia, and with Japan gone, that could be a priority.

Oh ya, and the copters are coming but the tech for it is in mid-research, and going slow due to our ponderous economy. In fact, if I put myself in your shoes, the first thing I might do next turn is to veto almost all orders in Japan :P With no "national culture" win and no need for border expansion anymore over there, temples are not needed and would just cost more money. In fact some already there might stand to be sold! (Once they've done their expansion duty at 10 turns)

Sirian, please do go ahead and take a turn, and 5 turns is fine (so is 10). The next player is lucky in the sense that I've collected every spare unit at KM'eer rather than leave them scattered all over Japan. Also, I don't think the airlifting for the turn has been done. If nothing else we'll get chosen a new target or have a solid plan for where to head next! (From this angle, it seems the total liberation of Cod Island would be next, and change in buildup plans to deal with Persia somehow next)

Charis

Go ahead Sirian.

I think my schedule will ease after this weekend, and I'll be able to be more active.

--Cy

ps--Hey Charis--Grisbot hasn't seen you around in a loooong time. Are you done with that game or just resting it a bit? 8-)

Good question Cy!

If 'that game' = WC3, I'm just overwhelmed with 'feast' phases in Civ land, but no, not done by any means.

If 'that game' = D2, hard to say actually. Probably not done, but I was just thinking yesterday, I need badly to log on and get all my chars in a game before they expire. If they've expired, it's game over 8-\ What's going to be painful is the mules... tons and tons... Having that many worked in D1 where YOU kept the files or when you play daily, but for occasional play it's untenable.

I'm also feeling totally negligent on rbd content generation, and need to prod myself to some action there.

Glad you're having a fun week, and hope things do in fact ease up by the weekend. (I can't guarantee I'll be able to "gather all the troops up" to make it easy on you next time though :P )

Charis

Oh for goodness sake, relieve yourself of a useless burden and dump all those mules. :p

D1 also allowed for cheating on item storage with saving items to file (if you bothered with the hacks). Long after I got bored even with variant play, I went on the most mundane item collection hunts, like trying to collect every value for Ring of the Eagle. That sort of thing. I found that I did use the item storage files for restoring from fatal crash/disconnect, but the rest was just for the fun of collecting. Almost none of the stuff ever actually got USED (a few things once or twice, to try some item-based variants or exercises), was always too busy collecting more.

When the muling ceases to be "collector fun" and becomes "chore", it's outlived itself. Don't you think?


- Sirian


PS: "Got it".

I, too, desperately need to log in my chars to reset their nuke dates. It's not so much that I would miss the items that I'm holding, but I know that there are things that would just be sad to let go to waste, like my polebarb's Harlequin's Crest or Wealth wirefleece (or his uber-1337 Pierre Tombale Couant...people always laughed when I said that's what I used to fight, but what did they know?), or my cheeseazon's Titan's Revenge/Buriza-do combo of weapons (going for both bow and jav on the same char is not only viable, but uber, even without those two cheesy weapons). If I can be bothered to log back onto battle.net, I might hold a CC item giveaway and everyone can gawk at what exactly it was that I've been muling all this time.

Though with my luck all I'll drop the stuff on the ground only to have the game crash :mad:

IT 1820AD: Um... 20% science 80% taxes is running a 60 gpt DEFICIT??? OMG! And that's WITH 56 gpt income from a saltpeter deal, interest from Wall Street, AND no unit maintenance costs since we are still under our allotment!!!

OK, enough of that. We've tried the "Proletariat" thing for long enough now. Government of One for All and All for One looks good on paper, but in practice its nothing but a haven for endless corruption. ENDLESS.

This is my first experience with Communism full blown, and I'm sorry to say I'm QUITE disappointed at the corruption levels. Cities are 1/1 without courthouse and police station, and we haven't even conquered half the world yet!

First Action, domestic nag: "Don't worry, you know it's going to be all right." France topples its useless government AND OUR ECONOMY IMPROVES. Yes, ladies and gentlement, Communism is so bad, that even with massively widespread courthouses and police stations, our economy is BETTER OFF under total anarchy!

:rotfl:

Oh, and a wondrous omen: only four turns of anarchy! :shotgun:

1822: Razed that Persian colony near our lands.

1824AD: I've captured five Russian cities and razed two others, set up a major stronghold on the doorstep of Mother Russia itself, yes on the mainland. (How??? In just two turns??? :lol: Shaking my head. Check the save file if interested.) I also obliterated a large stack of Russian troops outside our fortress, and all of this combined was just enough for Cathy to give us Radio in the peace treaty. I then sold her three lux for 92 gpt.

Since we no longer have MPP with Greece, we won't be dragged back into war unless somehow Russia attacks Rome. They seem quite busy with Greece, and Rome with Persia, so I doubt it. Since Charis himself has indicated "a little treachery is OK", we're in a SOLID position to have our way with Russia any time we please.

1826AD: Attacked Persia. :lol: One Persian city captured!

1828AD: Govt switched to Monarchy. Science increased to 60%! AND running a surplus. Now THIS is how to fight a modern war! Research time on Advanced Flight down to 8 turns, from "never". :lol:

Captured another Persian city, and razed a third, at which no less than EIGHT of their bomber squadrons got caught on the ground.

1830AD: Captured two more Persian cities, and our Great Leader "Charlie" arrives on the scene. (I used De Gaulle to form an army, which is still sitting unused at Hey You Come Here. Our new leader is there now also, and this time we may want to keep him as Fission is down to ~20 turns away, down from "yeah right, like you'll ever see Fission, ha!").

I then set up the next player for continued attacks on Persia.


I spent an HOUR each way adjusting cities on the revolt. Also had to spend a lot of time with clever engineering projects, literally rolling our military over rail lines with the spikes still warm in them.

I also settled us about six or eight new cities, and captured a Roman city (!) from the Persians right after they landed cavs and took it from Rome. :lol:

I still don't think we can conquer in time, but... we might come pretty close, and who knows, maybe with enough bombers and paratroops... Wouldn't that be something!

I left several bombers active, next player can put them where he wants. I sold off courthouses and police stations at hopeless 1/1 cities. We can never afford to go back to Communism, I'm afraid, so anything too far from the capital gets a temple, and that's about it. Markets and harbors are OK, they don't cost us, same with walls and coastal forts. Or run Wealth. Don't disband our cultural improvements anywhere, but each new city only needs one.

Once again, on my turn I didn't get to build hardly any new units! Next player should not have that handicap, and we are still well under the cap, so plenty of room to keep building more. I set up a lot of fighters, bombers, and ships, and fewer tanks, but change it to how you like. Some minor cities are on worker or settler. The Persian Fleet is harassing us, but our fighters have deterred their bombers to some degree. There's a reserve force of Artillery at Hayu.

Oh one more thing: all those conscripts fortified out in the sticks... those are on VITAL duty, keeping lines of transportation open for us. If you move them, and then find AI's blocking the choke points next turn, don't complain to me about it. :)


The AI's ARE performing better since the patch. Less weed chasing workers for sure, less weed in other areas, but still doing some stupid things like moving half their bombers into a city defended by a wounded cavalry (and nothing else) for a chance to bomb a couple useless roads. Heh.

Oh, and before I forget... "Our Glorious M'eers" etc etc. ;) Yes, I got them into combat even. Couple more Russian cossack units got wiped out by our most superior musket forces with no losses on our side. AND... I managed not to get any drowned in unescorted transports. :smoke:


- Sirian

Only took five turns. Heh, "only". I think we ought to just concede that turns now should be reduced to five, with "an option for ten if you're at a Famine point".

Next up, Jaffa or Cy, whoever has time.

- Sirian

:eek:

Um.... not bad (cough). I'm abundantly and extremely pleased you were able to hop in "even for 5 turns"... wow...

:jump:

I must admit I was battle weary after the Japan prosecution. That was a huge area to take down without much blitz capability at all. I just had not looked much past the point of what to do after Japan.

Well... that was my first "real" bout with Communism. Heck, first use of it AT ALL, and... it sucks. HARD. REALLY REALLY HARD! No wonder a strongly winning strat is "force AI into Communism". I knew the economy was in bad shape, but it wasn't highlighted until we went *BACK* to Monarchy and made more money and less core corruption hand over foot. Incredible. Gonna have to chew on that for a while and come up with SOME set of conditions under which Communism would rule (or, sheesh, at least not suck so bad your economy topples).

Estimates are as good as assumptions, I'll repeat. A key assumption was "... under present gov of Communism". When assumptions are shown wrong, numbers go out the window. The 'Athos culture' win date doesn't change, apart from 4 turn setback due to no culture generated in anarchy (??iirc). But our "progress rate" just went flying up. I was getting bummed we might never see copters or paratroopers (our second most glorious unit!)

> 1824AD: I've captured five Russian cities and razed two others, > set up a major stronghold on the doorstep of Mother Russia
> itself, yes on the mainland. (How??? In just two turns???
> Shaking my head. Check the save file if interested.)

> Persian foothold too and several cities captured?? Glorious!! :hammer:

I can't WAIT to open the save and see this, and if I have time (ya right) will try those turns myself. Might want to post a screenie for the readers.

> I spent an HOUR each way adjusting cities on the revolt.
Ow!!! Coming out I can see, but going in?? Is there something wrong with click-on-center-tile, hit right-arrow with left hand, repeat. Takes under a minute even with the very largest of empires. Or in anarchy is there more to it than max-food and control-mood ??

> I still don't think we can conquer in time, but... we might come
> pretty close, and who knows, maybe with enough bombers and
> paratroops... Wouldn't that be something!

:hammer: Would be... Glorious etc!!

> I sold off courthouses and police stations at hopeless 1/1 cities.
I wish you could tell if a courthouse and/or police station will STILL leave a city in 1/1 before you build it 8-\

> Oh, and before I forget... "Our Glorious M'eers" etc etc. Yes, I
> got them into combat even. Couple more Russian cossack units
> got wiped out by our most superior musket forces with no
> losses on our side.

If by some MIRACLE we do end up with conquest... may there be a musketeer army left on hand to strike the final death blow :)

If we get close (just dreaming for a minute), IF there is no culture generated during anarchy, we do have a means to delay a cultural win for a small time. Small due to no new units and you basically finish things up with what's in the field.

Game turns are now officially targetted at five turns, with option for ten if you're a glutton for punishment and have the time.

Charistunned

Ow!!! Coming out I can see, but going in?? Is there something wrong with click-on-center-tile, hit right-arrow with left hand, repeat. Takes under a minute even with the very largest of empires. Or in anarchy is there more to it than max-food and control-mood ??

Not with cities starving, some of them really BADLY in the red. So I did a lot of micromanaging and some irrigating, too. In some cases went back and forth quite a bit. We've been underirrigated and that too has slowed our economy. I guess the urgency of "NEED MORE TROOPS RIGHT NOW" ended up always taking precedence. Athos still at size 14 is just plain a crime. :p

I probably could have clicked them all to max food and not worried about it, but I'm too much the detail hog to "pull a Cy" and just automate everything to save time, when the result of that is clearly badly detrimental in some cases.

Plus there were other things, like seeing which cities still lacked vital infrastructure, etc.

Yeah, it was a full hour both ways, maybe a little more on the coming out, though.


- Sirian

Okay, I started playing. Don't anybody do nuffin :)

:hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

0) 1830AD Situational review. Ooooh. Look at all that pink :)

Okay, we're at war with Persia and peace with Russia. Sod that. Persia's on an island, and we have, ummm, nothing we can use to invade them with. Like, two transports on the other side of the world, and our fleet scattered all over the place.

Ha! Peace treaties be damned! We are the French! We are glorious! Our artillery stack that's holidaying up in northern Greece opens fire on nearby Russian infantry :hammer:

We lose one cavalry attacking the three Russians.

Our northern fleet (three sleeping battleships) goes on Jaffa-brand-ultra-extended-sealed-orders-passed-down-from-generation-to-generation-style-goto, and might arrive in the theater of operations some time in the next century.

Bombers out of La Bastille knock a Russian ironclad down to 1hp, which then .. ummm .. sinks our ironclad. Drat!

Injured Persian fleet retreats towards Madagascar. Russian cossacks kill some Greeks up north.

1) 1832AD Kill two leftover cossacks up north, and our glorious artillery stack advances on Russian territory. Another of our ironclads this time successfully takes out a 1hp Russian ironclad :)

Battleships sink a Russian ironclad and a Persian galleon. Tank out of Magnitogorsk kills a cossack.

Wake up our second musketeer army to lead the assault on the Russian front, along with the tank army that was hiding in Sado.

Persians land a single cavalry unit at Kandahar. Invisible Russians kill more Greeks up north.

2) 1834AD The Greeks are obstructing the Russian front. Bah.

The last two Persian cities on the mainland (Turing Tepe and Behistun) fall to our gloriousness! (Hmmm. Persians had a bomber in Behistun, but weren't using it. Maybe they only just moved it there.)

Workers dig a few extra mines around Athos and bring it over 100 shields/turn (that's one tank/bomber/transport per turn :) ).

(I don't see the point of irrigating our core cities beyond break-even, unless we're just wasting shields on anything we can usefully build. If we want them to grow, it's better to grow them by transferring pop-points from distant cities where extra production is wasted, but growth potential is plentiful. Growth can happen anywhere, our good production can only happen in our core.)

So I went through all our cities, irrigating in a few places where shield production was being wasted, and hired a lot of tax collectors in remote parts of our empire where we were at growth limits and max corruption (like, around 100gpt worth of tax collectors).

Ouch. City management in large-map games is sloooooooow.

Russian ironclads sneak out of Astrakhan to sink one of our ironclads. Lots of Persian ironclads stream back out of the Madagascar repair yards. Lots of action up on the Russian front, most of which I can only see the Greek side of.

We catch the Russians trying to plant a spy!

3) 1836AD Oh, this is interesting. Persia is willing to give us back our two Madagascar settlements in a peace treaty. They're almost willing to give us New Ephesus too, but I can't quite swing that. (I did go away and sink a couple of Persian ships, and bombard every Persian target we could reach, but no dice.)

Okay, so we got Madagascar back (yay!) and made peace with Persia. If Persia then goes and attacks Rome and triggers our MPP, that's not our fault, is it? :)

On the Russian front, we kill stuff. A musketeer kills an infantryman, and leads our troops towards Minsk. Tres glorious!

Persian fleet retires to New Ephesus. Veritable swarms of ironclads!

Persia attacks Rome somewhere offscreen. What treachery! We declare war on Persia! (Ohh, umm, that was Persian treachery, of course. What were you thinking? :) ).

4) 1838AD Airport rush-built in Madagascar North, and we get some troops in their pronto. I guess I should have put an airport in Bordeaux as well, but I didn't, and it's now undefended with an immortal right next door. Drat.

As expected, Persian immortal walks back into Bordeaux. Oh well. We have troops on Madagascar now, so we'll get it back soon enough.

Hundreds of French citizens petition the government for aqueducts for their cities. Gee, if I wanted to give you all aqueducts, I would have done it already. Here, have this coupon for a trip to La Bastille, instead.

5) 1840AD Emergency airlift of a musketeer-engineer to Madagascar to start the engines of the planes so we can do a bombing run, then our tanks roll over the Persian defenders at Bordeaux and New Ephesus. There's almost a minute of ship-sinking animations at New Ephesus :D

Our artillery destroys the temple at Minsk. Which doesn't help much. A tank takes out a regular infantry defender, and our glorious musketeer army defeats a conscript infantry and captures the city!

Started moving our troops into position to attack the Russian cities on Cod Piece Island :)

Pic: the Russian front.

Cy (or someone), go get 'em!

:rotfl:

Who needs comedy channel with the posts I'm reading tonight?!

This one was a fav...

> 1840AD Emergency airlift of a musketeer-engineer to
> Madagascar to start the engines of the planes so we can do a
> bombing run, then our tanks roll over the Persian defenders at
> Bordeaux and New Ephesus. There's almost a minute of ship-
> sinking animations at New Ephesus

:lol:

(Should I point out that "musketeers must be present to fire artillery" and "a city must receive bombardment before being attacked" do not equal "Musketeers must fly the sorties" ?? Although, if that's what you've been doing so far, cool! My little caricature specialists are growing a life of their own, fun!)

This too..
> Hundreds of French citizens petition the government for
> aqueducts for their cities. Gee, if I wanted to give you all
> aqueducts, I would have done it already. Here, have this
> coupon for a trip to La Bastille, instead.
I'm just glad Mrs C isn't at her "email station" next to my computer, she would think I'm a nut for all this laughing...


WE GOT BACK MADAGASGAR?!??!
:hammer:

Persia bows to our gloriousness!!

> made peace with Persia. If Persia then goes and attacks Rome > and triggers our MPP, that's not our fault, is it?

Was this a rhetorical question or a real one? I got a big :nono: in rbd3 (?) when I set us up to "autocancel" a treaty by being sucked into a MPP, and it was pointed out that in fact, yes, it is our fault. It's *NOT* an issue here, our reputation is shot simply because these fools do not understand our glorious ways. But... if this is NOT a rep-harming treachery on our part, I would like to be corrected.

Cy, I hope you can slip in here for some turns this week. It's too glorious to miss.

Here's my plate after reading posts just now:
UP IN 6 Mayan
Do something in 13 Cretans
ON DECK in 15 OCC
ON DECK in INF after Carbon
ON DECK in 5 after Cy
ON DECK in 14 Enviro

So if you could play by Wednesday late eve, take it.
(btw cy, rbd16 has an open slot for left-brainers :P )

Charis

Yeah, that was our treachery. :) But at least it was clever and redeems Madagascar! :)

And hey... I never promised Russia that my successors would keep the agreement, only that -I- would. :) If they wouldn't listen to their advisor telling them "D'artagnon is a known cheat and liar, deal with him carefully!" that's not my problem. As for Persia, I don't feel bad about that one, let them eat bullets.

- Sirian

Got it.

I took today off as I knew I'd be worthless after this weekend.

--Cy

erm, that didn't come out quite right, did it?

Boy, is this game outta control or what? I never even SAW some of our cities. Oh well, I took 6 turns, as at the end of 5 I was in an odd and uncomfortable spot on the Russian front, and thought I could resolve it in one more turn. It worked out 8-). The funny thing about a massive game like this is that I get obsessed with tiny projects that, in the grand scale of things, don’t really amount to much.

Here are the notes, grouped by area instead of year.

Misc: Persia went to war with Greece, too. We FINALLY knocked Persia out of Democracy—they are in Anarchy right now, expect to see Communism soon. Advanced flight came in, which I have never had before. I made a round of Paratroopers just for the hell of it; the ones that are finished I think I moved to Minsk. I think. Charis, this is your baby, YOU figure out what to do with them 8-). Rome, having learned their lesson messing with us in the early days, remains a staunch ally. They sit down there cranking out longbowmen, and marching them on foot all the way up to the Russian front to die quick deaths. It almost makes me want to not finish them off…

Madagascar: Persia has one city left, and I have the tanks parked outside to do the job. Crush it 8-). I transported in a full load of workers, so we have military rail. This is good, as Persia keeps invading us here. They’ll land somewhere near New E., as I learned my lessons in the first invasion and now leave a city under-defended to draw the silly AI in (instead of having to defend the entire island, this way I can influence them to land on my military rail and in range of my bombers, while still leaving the bombers based in range of the next target). You have the forces to deal with them in Madagascar North. I have some ships on the way to seal this off because it is rather annoying. They invaded twice in 6 turns, and I would not be at all surprised if the next wave is on the way.

Murmansk Isle: This is that tiny island with New Delhi on it almost within sight of Athos. This was most frustrating. Previous rulers put the tools in place to take this joint, but I can’t get the job done. I’ve been bombing it out of Cod Piece, but after getting the pop down to 1 and destroying all the improvements, I cannot hit the defenders. I think the game code is checking for pop and improvements and never rolling for a hit on the defenders. Either that or the bombers in CP are the worst bombers ever. I suggest importing enough troops to crush them at full strength.

Cod Piece Isle: We have been running amok here. The Russians are down to one city. You have the tools in place to knock the last city out. They, too, tried a couple of invasions in our rear, here, but I think I have the ships in place to stop that little trick on our side. Now that we have taken the other side, I guess it is time to move the navy to watch the other bits too.

Russian Front: This is one of the odder wars I have ever fought. Catherine has proved to be a tough nut to crack, though I think the tide is turning. She is down to 69 Infantry, from 84 when I started. My policy goals on this front were: (1) make Minsk our base, (2) cut Russia in half, (3) take Moscow (it has two wonders), and (4) abuse the Greeks. Minsk went well. It was starved down to 1, pumped back up with more loyal citizens, an airport was rushed in, and it became this planet’s largest airbase. We have cut Russia in two. I took (with much pounding by our glorious artillery) and razed Tblisi and Sevastopol south of Moscow (size 20+ cities take a good bit of glorious pounding), replaced them with proper French cities, and cut the rails below them. I hope Greece is more interested in the southern cities than I am. Moscow just took me a while to get around to. Our next leader gets to have some fun here 8-). Our bombastic bombers have isolated it from the rest of their towns (and dumped its pop below 12, from 22, and killed the Barracks 8-)), but Cathy frantically rebuilds a road on the back side every turn, so you have to bomb it back out. You have 2 tank armies on Moscow’s north side ready to strike—Moscow is on a bending river, and this was the first non-river attack tile. You have a fire base established with 9 artillery, a Musketeer army to command them, and 3 infantry to guard them, to Moscow’s south-east, just within range (I was a bit nervous about this guard being light, so I parked about 5 tanks the exact same distance from Moscow—Cathy should see them as “more” of a threat [the ignorant fool does not understand the mighty power of the great French artillery] and pop at them if she gets anxious). The main arty stack is (with escort) in between New Grenoble and New Rouen. They can get to the fire base in 2 turns, I think. Alternately, they could go to fire base “K” which is currently shelling Kiev in a desultory kind of way. “K” only has 16 artillery. The main artillery stack? Heh. Right click it and see for yourself. Let’s just say “more than you have ever seen in one place before”. The Russian front has been two different wars. The Russians and Greeks are fighting a unit vs unit war, and I am fighting (mostly unopposed) a tactical war against objectives. I keep my stacks very large, with nice inviting gaps between them. The AI rushes past me to fight the Greeks. The Greek AI rushes past me to fight the Russians (for reasons that escape me, both sides are fascinated with Yakutsk, and have expended enormous resources fighting for it, while Cathy has been unconcerned about Moscow’s eventual demise). So during each turn cycle, while the AI moves, you get to see two pretty entertaining war movies from the Russian front—first the Russian offensive, then the Greek one. You really need to make some popcorn for the full effect, though. Ah well, this is the “Hot One” for the next leader. Moscow and its two wonders are within our grasp, but after that I am neutral.

Greece: What, a front with our “Gracious” ally? Yep. I signed a late MPP with them that we will now have to deal with or break. Frankly, they have been invaluable doing our dirty work in Russia, and all of our isolated cities on the continent depend on Greek rail. 1 turn back, when they had Yak-town on the run, they pulled most of their cav out for no reason I could see and, by some coincidence, 25 of them ended up in one square right next to Minsk. Another 6 or so are in another square on the other side of Minsk. I smelled a rat, and did the MPP for 1 lux. It might have been nothing, but my paranoia alarm was going off about 3 out of 5 bells, and I would be perfectly happy NEVER fighting Greece. Heck, we still both owe the X-man one, eh? Our RoP is going to expire with them soon—I recommend heavy bribes to keep it. I put the airport into Minsk in case they dumped on us, but I don’t think we really want to have to go there. It might even be time to start bribing them every few turns. We are big enough to survive, and win, even if the whole world turns against us, but, because or their position on the map, Greece would be a real pita to deal with.

UP next---

Erm, Charis?

I’ve lost track of the rotation in this one. I took this turn because I skipped one a bit back, and was off today, but I have no idea. Charis, this is your game, either take it or please post a turn order again (yeah, I looked at the old ones, and we seem to have gone free-form).


--Cy

Ps—if you want a chuckle, check out New Madras. It is staffed by a Pikeman and a Catapult, and is still building its temple! Haha!

Cy, I'm glad you got a chance to experience the glory that is modern France. :P

And wow, both you and Donsig took days off today, and coincidentally had big SG turns to make. Now THAT'S dedication! :D

Funny thing is, although we say "took a while to bombard the 22 city" we do end up pulverizing it down to size 1 in about 2-3 turns with our glorious "Stack-O-Doom". Imagine if the AI made it a priority, captured the stack, and turned those howitzers on Athos??! :eek:

I hope to come up with a clever idea for paratroopers. They're pretrained by the musketeers and can assault a city all on their own. Yet... unless we train a stack-o-doom of them, their offense is not too great. Also, where we would *like* to drop them is I think out of range -- we'll see.

Roster (not quite free form, although it looked like it)
Charis <<< up
Jaffa <<< on deck
Sirian
Cy

Zed is free to snag if it comes up on a weekend, but under his house rules rbd5 would be an impossible grab mid week :P

When it was my turn last, there was NO beachhead or even plan for such, on Russian soil, WE were the ones holding on tooth and nail on Cod Island, and Madagascar island fell. How things change :p I agree with your assessment of Greece, and Rome for that matter. (Almost forgot this is the same rome that got uppity with us and we unleashed Japan on with horrific results.) I do *NOT* want to get involved with Greece with Russia or Persia still around. If it came down to it, ending up as allies just as we finish off the two nasty foes would be a glorious victory. If there's a chance for conquest we'll take it, by all means, but no need to divide our forces while Greece is playing so helpful a role.

Charis

Well there are only three possibilities here:

1) Park everything, turn off all animations, and click next turn a number of times. We COULD do this. As long as Athos isn't razed and our govt doesn't go into anarchy, nothing else matters. The cultural win is in the bag.

2) Attempt the conquest. This would mean finishing Russia first, but we would not have the luxury of time to wait until Persia is dead to go attack Greece. We'd have to hit both at the same time for the final push.

3) Forsake functionality and play around with some caricatures or role play moments, and/or goof off with paratroop schemes and practive with copters -- all while we wait for #1 to happen.

I'm OK with any of those choices. It's really up to Charis.

- Sirian


PS: glad you had some fun today Cy. :)

You know, I was thinking this turn about a couple of differences in the AI and a human player.

The first is abundantly evident in this game and RBD9 (where I exploited it unmercifully). The AI reacts to what it sees as “immediate threat” over “global strategic situation”. Now the programmers were very clever, they apparently hard-coded in some bottom-line over-rides. The AI will always go after something under-defended (this is an exploit in and of itself, see Madagascar for a case in point) (or not defended) or a vulnerable resource. But the “defend locally, forget globally” mantra, though, frankly, the best I could think of if I was in charge of the AI, is exploitable, as the AI does not appear to calculate properly for scale or effect. By “scale” I mean when you get an ancient AI to call off a successful invasion with a diversion by a force that is actually incapable of doing anything. By “effect” I mean that Cathy is ignoring units capable of taking her capitol, as they are not as good a target as others. But the short-term outlook is going to cost her Moscow.

Now I, for one (apparently the only one on this entire board), do not see this as all bad. In-game, we are working in an environment where a continued war in a progressive government is going to cause more and more unrest regardless of the success of your undertakings. So why shouldn’t a government go for short-term success over long-term goals? Win the winnable battles, hurt them the easiest way possible, and try to get favorable terms. It is only an exploit because human players are too stubborn/stupid to play by the rules. We will sacrifice unending streams of digital forces in the name of a later goal. We see the ‘big picture’. Let’s face it. WE are the irrational ones, because we refuse to re-evaluate the situation every single turn and determine the best return on investment each turn since we are emotionally tied to overall success that exists only in our minds. We view the campaign globally, not turn by turn. Don’t look for me to bust the AI’s chops on this one either. McClellan should have wiped out Richmond and the Confederacy in his rivers campaign. BOTH sides went to thinking locally, and he was fended off. Hey, in Real Life, politics override military sense.

The second is more subtle. I was dicking Greece every way I knew how. I was leaving openings to his forces, I was stacking my units to make him more a target than me, I was refusing to attack any oppfor units in range. A human player would say “Hey—help me out or be my enemy.” Greece just saw me attacking Russia somewhere on the turn, and remained gracious. With friends like me, all he needed was a venereal disease to make his life complete.

-Cy

ps—did I mention I ramble a bit?

pps--let's forsake functionality and have a bit 'o fun

Originally posted by Cyrene
By ?effect? I mean that Cathy is ignoring units capable of taking her capitol, as they are not as good a target as others. But the short-term outlook is going to cost her Moscow.

In this case it's a failure to recognise the special nature of artillery. If the big stack was all non-artillery units, picking off exposed units and piling up defenders in your city would be the correct response (up to a point -- then you have to get into defending key resources, and defending your supply-lines). Artillery should be upgraded in the AI threat assessment so it puts some effort into attacking the stack.

I wish there was a programming interface set up for the AIs. I'm sure there are plenty of people here who would enjoy tweaking with the AI logic (I know I would), and between us we should be able to come up with something that would challenge even the Sirian-Cy-Charis team :)

You don't *HAVE* to win by culture in Athos -- at least not immediately.

You can sell off all non-wonders to slow the cultural advance. That's a pretty minor change and would allow more caricaturing/gloriousing/etc.ing. I leave it to more creative minds than mine to justify such actions (In the original book, Athos would occasionally sell off things to pay for the continued life of care of the three musketeers and friend -- some link that way?). With the wonders, a culture win would probably still occur.

More extremist would be to give away Athos and re-capture it. I think that would eliminate all culture-gaining items there, giving lots of time for gloriousing. NO clue how to justify that. If Charis wants radio artillery (wasn't that a goal?), this is the only possible approach, I think.

Not what I'd do (definitely #1 -- fortify all/shift-enter and just win the darn thing), but this isn't my game....

Arathorn

Or, we could just carry on and finish conquering the world after gaining a cultural victory, if we wanted. For caricature and just playing about with radar artillery purposes, it doesn't matter that the game's already been won :)

PS: my preference is to see how much of the world we can conquer before Athos wins the game for us, without taking any special efforts to delay victory. And then stop and go play something else :)

I knew if I waited a day my posting would be superflous. I echo Jaffa's sentiments exactly, well, some other folks too...

Parking all and next turn would be unglorious in the extreme, please no :P

Attempt the conquest, see if we can hit it without delaying a culture win, but... knock yourselves out doing it. Try some fun things, in particular, investigate copters and paratroopers!

If we don't finish before the win, finishing it up, ideally with Radar Artillery, is in the cards (for me and anyone else still up for it)

We've got this far to get to Modern era and still have a lot of work to do. It will be a while, if ever, before I see a game reach this stage, be in control but have so much to do, with the possibility of seeing 100 Radar Artillery bombard the final enemy cities :hammer:

One option not ruled out competely yet is if we're *real* close to conquest just before culture victory, is to go Anarchy for a very brief period. We would be transitioning to a new, glorious form of government, Musketeerism, but since the game doesn't support it, we would have to conquest first :P I don't want to see it come down to this, but mention it as an option that doesn't massively insult Athos and which has a plausible 'spin' :P

"Got it" -- expect to see Paratroopers and copters start to play a huge role (well, as big as 5-10 turns can produce). I have a glorious five step plan in mind, and several parts benefit greatly from glorious air support :P

Charis

EDIT -- ETA to culture win? Athos in 1852 has 13,661 gaining 81 per turn. There may be a higher rate later if 1000 yr bonuses kick in, but otherwise the culture win would be no later than 79 turns, in 1980. The earlier 1950's projections were for whole-civ win, not city. so... we've got *MORE* time than we thought :)
75 turns is seven to fiften player rounds of 5-10 turns. A LOT can happen in that time :P

After Persia and Russia, defeating Greece before Rome would kick in the "100K and your culture more than double next closest civ". With Greece alive the second condition is not met.

1852 AD (0) - Glorious... GLORIOUS!!! Jean Paul d'Charis was most pleased
for the glory of France upon seeing the recent turn of events. Since he
was last at home, Madagascar, once lost, is almost liberated, there is but
one Persian city left. (( 1. Secure Madagascar ))

Cod Island, home to some of the bravest defenders on the planet, has almost
repulsed the Russian invaders. Finish the task (( 2. Secure Cod Island ))

We have a beachhead for operations against Russia, in Minsk. (Ah, that
explains it, I was picturing a sea-invasion beachhead, this makes more sense)
We have not one but TWO glorious M'eer armies at that front, one advancing
on Moscow and the other Kiev. "Omnia Russia duae partes dividus est..."
All of Russia is divided in two parts. The northern half has five cities,
the lower half ten. (( 3. Capture Moscow and Kiev, focus on North ))

There has been a thorn in our side for some time now, at Murmansk island.
It's been shelled for aeons but for some reason the defenders hp do not
want to drop. It's time to end this one. (( 4. Liberate Murmansk ))

There is one last strategic outpost would should be secured. From Tureng
Tepe we can paradrop onto the microisland of Borazjan and take it, which
can be a launch point for paradrop onto their MAINLAND. Who needs navies?
With our glorious (etc etc) M'eer pilots, and their comrades the Meeratroopers,
we can dominate by land and air. (( 5. Secure Bora Bora island ))

BTW, in looking at Greece, they have no oil, no rubber, and no mass production
yet... muhahaha! Rome has no horses, no salt, no iron, no coal, no rubber.
I'm tempted to give them iron and coal so they can build a rail line to
ease our later invention, but keeping them at no resource levels will make
it an easy task, rail or no. 50% sci, +180 surplus, thank goodness a wise
Musketeer got us out of Communism :D
BTW2, just caught the shore patrol outside Athos! Heartwarming :P

For several of these objectives we'll need copters and paratroopers.
So I start half dozen of one and dozen of another :P Have to cut back
on sci for a turn or two to rush an airport or two.

1854 AD (1) - Roman longbow takes out a Russian infantry :P
Ah, THERE is the stack-o-doom. Kiev-19 becomes barracks-less Kiev-12.
Moscow-10 becomes Moscow 6 :P Golly! What an air force we command!

A in the armor... New Perseopolis hit by bomber run puts defender
at 1 hp. Ah wait, another defender. A (cough) spearman. Good thing we
researved our 'elite' tank for this horrific duty. Now our remaining
tanks, and all forces on Madagascar, are able to go against the polyglot
ragtag crew that showed up via transport this turn. Short on tanks, it
turns into the battle of the UU's - glorious M'eer vs vile Immortal.
Not only do we win, we become elite! :hammer: An inf takes out the last
longbowman and... (Objective 1 is complete!)

Another ! Murmansk, after pounding, sees the defenders hurt... 2...
1 hp. In we go! Cav wins first battle with 1 hp left, infantry wins
the second. Murmansk island is liberated!! And...

... the city is renamed M'eermansk!! :hammer: (Objective 4 complete)

Kazan on Cod Piece is now completely surrounded. The coup d'grace will
surely come next round. A Lt.Colonel M'eer is brought up with a most
glorious artillery piece for this moment...

Wow, rail net (and Greek RoP) extends square into Tureng Tepe! We bring
a platoon of paratroopers and copters and rush an airport there...

Oh wow, *another* army at Moscow hidden?! Glorious!!
Minsk area, we lose one tank on first assault on Moscow, then win about
next eight battles. Pop a trooper right behind the city, next to their
workers :P (First time EVER used, neat animation!)

Newton's University, along with Moscow, is captured! :hammer:
Ooh! Sistine too :)

1856 AD (2) - The Greeks take Yakutsk and have a not-so-small cav-stack-o-doom
prowling around. With Sistine in our hands, DOZENS of glorious French
cities rejoice and celebrate "Musketeer Day!!"

Satsuma oil source dries up. We see none appear...

Kiev is pounded. Not just pounded, but glorious stack-o-doom pounded.
Buildings fall like leaves from trees, and when under size 7, push!!
We still have about 30+ yet to fire :P

On Madagascar, the Persians aren't done, but... their two transport ships
heading up did NOT reach the shore and are in the water. Dead in the
water to be precise as our navy moves in for the kill.

Back on Cod... reduced to size 6 then mauled.

Coe Piece Island is liberated!! :hammer: (Objective 2)

At poor Kiev, a tank is lost early, but we win the rest. Kiev Falls!!
(Objective 3).

The storming of Borazjan begins! Copters drop infantry on a mountain
outside the city. Paratroopers fly over as a whole platoon of seven!
A glorious M'eer is airdropped to oversee operations, as forward 'sighter'
for the bombing runs. We'll soon see how many defenses they have, or if a
loaded transport is in range to save them...

1858 AD (3) - A cav of ours with two artillery test the water outside
Kiev towards Odessa. A cossack kills it and (gasp) captures the artillery!
Do they fire on us?! :eek: Nay!! The glorious artillery of the French is
far beyond the grasp of their impoverished brains... who but the elite can
fire such a marvel?! :hammer:

The Greek horse horde runs past Kieve down south toward Odessa or deeper.

Persian Ironclads attack us and try to sneak away but we hunt them down
and sink them. On the key assault city of Tureng Tepe, the Persia battle
ship and armada combine their forces to take out... a road leading to
nowhere and an irrigation, leaving the sole *rail* that leads into the
penninsula untouched. Go figure. There *is* a transport in the area.
Empty. It *LEAVES* the city about to die!


We start straight up with the key action of the round, the para-invasion
of Borazjan. Planes strafe it endlessly, revealing ONE (modern) defender.
Our first trooper dies and promotes the defender. Eep. Glad we left a couple
planes left to bring him back down, that cycle could get ugly. Fortunately
our second trooper administers the coup!!

Borazjan and the whole island is liberated and renamed... Bora Bora.
(Objective 5, the last one, now complete... wow, just started turn *3* :P )
We take it, fortify, spread units all over the island to prevent invasion,
and will rush an airport after resistance over. These same troopers can
land on the Persian MAINLAND several squares from Herat. Alas, it's pure
mountains over there. With their rail we may not be able to take a city,
at least not as quick as Bora Bora. A carrier in the area would rock, one
is being built in Orleans. (Our one carrier is not far from Bastille, under
a Battleship)

With recon we see the cavs are near Krasnoyarsk, our next target. Our
glorious artillery stack of doom engages the city... Rax destroyed,
harbor destoryed (and 7 others) and city reduced from 24ish to 13, then
on the last shot... 12! (Less defensive bonus). At least five modern defenders.

To our next glorious leader...
- From above you can figure out a lot, plus, it's not many years since your
last reign :P
- We have a ton of tanks on Cod Island, which need airlift out sometime
(or transport now that seas in better shape)
- Turn end not quite done, about a dozen plane you can rebase where needed.
Also several tanks. All the paratroopers except maybe 2 are in the old
Persia staging city, Tureng Tipe. (Rename that as "Trooper town" if u like :P)
- There's a settler lost near Cajun Village. Fill in our culture hole where
he stands or get him out from the hot sun! :P
- We actually seem a bit short on 'vet infantry' with all the city taking here
- There are armies outside THREE north Russian cities, and one approaching
Odessa, along with a "whompin' stack". The stack of doom itself is outside
Krasno.
- Fission is due in 6, and a leader is waiting to rush the UN. Do *NOT*
build it in Athos unless you want to have the culture win earlier. (Since
we still have dreams of conquest, not good) Tech after that? 5 away from
Radar Artillery, or we can 'backup' and snag Amphib assault.
- Greek RoP due up in 1 turn, I think we want to renew it. Avoid giving him
Mass Production if we can. Rome due too - with the RoP, Rome is the whipping
boy of the Russian theatre, heaving longbow after longbow to destruction.
- In some cases you see units left on the rail - if not, Greece cav go
and block our paths 8-\
- Feel free to scale back the paratrooper production or change any orders.
* I may be light in garrison in the Russian cities, beef up and bring more
conscripts perhaps if you get a chance. (All for One, One for All, Aramis,
Milady, Rheims, all have their airdrop left for this turn. Don't leave
Kiev with light garrison, it's way too close to capital.

Charis
Jaffa <<< up
Sirian <<< on deck
Cy

Good luck, take your time Jaffa, I see you're up in a few
Charis

M'eermansk!! :rotfl:

A MOST impressive victory, that. Jaffa and I spent ages trying to crack that nut and never even scratched the shell.

Flew one in as a spotter!!! :rotfl:

Beat an immortal and promoted to elite! :shotgun: :ninja: Never bring a knife to a gunfight, X-man! :lol:

Cod Piece Island! :fish: That name shall live in history! Now if only poor Mad King Louis ever found his glory...


"The glorious artillery of the French is far beyond the grasp of their impoverished brains... who but the elite can fire such a marvel?!" :crazyeyes

Et cetera, Et cetera! :)


- Sirian

"How goes the war?"

"Gloriously, Lord Musketeer. Truly gloriously."

Most of the 1870 turn still to play.

And I didn't do anything by way of city management :)

IT1870AD: Still about half of this turn left to play. Most significant events: Our Paratroops advance on Herat. Our copters are massed at Athos. I drop four Paratroops from the island onto mountains near the north tip of Persia, with that port city in that upper desert region.

1872AD: Our Glorious Paratroops capture Herat! (Sea bombardment softened the infantry on defense). No resisters! I disband a conscript infantry, then immediately rushbuild the remaining 138 shields on an airport. I move ALL of our fighters and bombers to Herat. I load a vet M'eer onto a copter and rebase to Herat. OUR ATTACK WILL FAIL UNLESS COORDINATED BY PEPE LE PEW, OUR M'EER COMMANDER! Once he is in place and fortified in Herat, it's safe to bring in more copters. (They would probably have all crashed otherwise). I load vet infantry galore into the copters and rebase all of them to Herat, then unload and fortify all of that infantry. Hello foothold. (Glorious, etc). Our ships move into range of that north desert city and our paratroops move closer.

1874AD: X-man moves THE biggest AI stack O doom I have ever seen onto the mountain west of Herat. We are talking about 20 infantry (mostly vet), about 20 longbow, and about 30 immortals. Our bombers soften up every last inf unit. Airport completed (under the glorious supervisian of LE PEW, etc), and airlift begins. Tanks. Every last airport we own on the mainland airlifts a tank into Herat. The last batch of paratroops from the mainland drop into the desert on the north tip, next to that city, as our other Paratroops in the region close in from the south, on the mountains. NOW THAT PEPE IS ON THE SCENE, it's safe to drop paratroops into the deep mountainous regions of Persia, where we seek incense! (They need Pepe to show them how to "fire" those complicated parachutes, or they would all drop like stones to the earth and die, when pushed out of the planes). :p

1876AD: Our glorious bombers pummel an incense city, then beat down the injured infantry units in the Big Stack, too. Our glorious (etc) Paratroops capture two more cities, including Dakyanus, city of incense! I airdrop more paratroops next to the other incense city, of Dariush Kabir. Our tanks then attack, and obliterate, all of the Persian infantry on the mountain WITHOUT ANY LOSSES. All! Another round of tanks airlifted into Herat. Got a major major force there now.

1878AD: Xman, smelling the coming loss of his Big Stack, valiantly sends the whole bloody lot of them (or nearly) on a suicide mission into Herat. Our infantry in the town are all (ALL) promoted to elite. The stack of more than forty attackers does kill a tank one infantry and one defending paratroop. We score a great Leader (Napoleon) but I am tired and too slow to react on the PrntScrn key. Still got a cool screenie, but too late to show the leader emerging.

Our bombers are mostly unsuccessful, lots o failed runs, but we manage to beat down the defenders at Dariush, and then our glorious Paratroops capture a fourth city on my turn! And ALL of these captures came as a result of using their special ability, in combination with bombardment support/softening. None were carted up to the battle on rails, all airdropped into position. This brings incense online for us!

I finish the rest of the turn, including advancing on the next target. I left a few copters in Athos, and two paratroops activated in Herat, for next player to get a chance to use them as he sees fit.

Mission accomplished: foothold established in Persia (and how!), and troops put into position to attack. Please no more deals with Rome or Greece after this, though, as we will need to start thinking about attacking them, too, if we're going to make our deadline.

The war in Persia is some great stuff, don't miss out!


- Sirian

Here's a shot of our Glorious (etc) Paratroopers in action! Also our infantry at Herat all promoting to elite, and this taken just after Napoleon II arrived on the scene. (I used him to rush a wonder in Herat, so... better defend that city well! :lol: ).

Remember, if you need any artillery (etc), the catch phrase for where to find them is "Hey You, Come Here!" :)

Oh and by the way, I held a UN Vote. Rome voted for us, but Alex voted for himself! (Imagine that! After all we've done for him! I think this insolence ought not to go unpunished! :lol: ). X-man didn't show up at the polls. (Guess he was too busy weeping over the TOTAL loss of his stack o doom, which managed to kill three French units, hand us Manhatten for free, and promote a big ole batch of our troops to elite!).

What happened to the Zulus??!! :cool: :crazyeye: :goodjob:

I hope you guys are having as much fun playing this game as I am reading about it!

Well, back to the Germans in my own game at home. I expect to see the Persians in even worse shape when I come back!

Woo!! GO Pepe!! :hammer:

Glorious!! [party] [dance] :jump:

I'm eatin' this up, tnx! Who would do this in a 'normal' game?

:P
Charis

oops, I'm up 8-0.

got it.

--Cy

If they would get rid of the "requires airport" nonsense on the Para's they would become more than forgotten caricature units. They are actually quite nice for busting those cultural borders (their historical role) but generally it's too wasteful to keep rushing airports wherever you might want to use them.

- Sirian

PS: Charis, there is a shipment of something new and complex called "chewing gum" being airlifted into Herat. MAKE SURE PEPE IS ON HAND to show everybody how to unwrap the pieces and teach them not to swallow immediately, or we'll have TENS OF THOUSANDS of choking deaths on our hands, thousands of men bleeding to death from paper cuts, and God Himself only knows how many tummy aches. Be a shame for half our units to disband mysteriously, and the rest to hole up for two turns and do nothing because they attempted to use new technology without proper M'eer supervision. :p :lol:

:eek:

:rotfl:

Please, oh please, let them not try to WALK and chew this dreadful purveyor of doom!!!!

Charis

We didn't even THINK about the complexity of WALKING at the same time as chewing! :( Oh this is a most depressing development indeed. WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO???

I've let the troops down! :( :spank:

I don't think even brave Pepe :shotgun: can handle an operation THAT complex!

I have GUMMED :p up the works! :eek:

Only Thinks-Outside-the-Wrapper "Cyrene" can save us now!


- Sirian

Charis built the door into Persia. Sirian wedged it open. I took it as my duty as the Leader of the Glorious Monarchy of France to break the Persian’s back. It was hammer time! Our motto for this turn? All for one, one for all, and drive the Pernicious Persians from the mountains of their homeland. I took 5 turns.

I begin on the continuation by playing with the Muskatrooper that Sirian left me with a movement point. My first ever Civ3 Paratroop drop occurs (cool graphic). What is this? A Paratrooper has to start on an airport, drops, and cannot fight in the same turn? What kind of weed is this? What good is a reduced-defense, high-mobility force if it cannot achieve the tactical initiative? Cavalry gets high-mobility, withdraw ability, and the ability to move and attack in one turn, yet paratroops and other air-cavalry (helicopter troops) gets no retreat and no attack? Sid needs to talk to someone from 1Cav. What is this? I have found the problem. Some imbecile has issued my Muskatroopers gum! Sacre bleu! They are sitting around chewing instead of fighting! The gum is taken away from all troops in Persia. To cheer up the infantry, I give them fun helicopter rides over the scenic mountains. For some reason, bad weather always blocks their return to base and the troops are landed, for safety’s sake, in the Persian rear 8-). The Muskatroopers are relegated to riding the rails, where they can move and attack in one turn. Later, I start pulling them out of Persia for a nice rest in Pisae. By some strange coincidence, an Airport is also rushed into Pisae, which, in strange coincidence number deus, is within dropping range of the immediate rear of Antium, the one city blocking our path to Rome. That all our Helicopters find their way to Pisae by the end of my turn is simply astounding. You would almost think I was plotting an invasion of our good friend Rome, n’est-ce pas?

After the gum incident was resolved, things in Persia went most violently 8-). Our glorious bombarding ships and planes, under the supervision of Pepe, pounded the Persians apart like pulpy pomegranates. We took 8 Persian cities, and Xerxes is broken. We have taken his Rubber, and his counter-attacks now consist of longbowmen (why not riflemen?). He is down to about 2 Infantry per city and trash troops. In an awesome display of stupidity, denial, or bravura, he has invaded Madagascar AGAIN 8-0! I think I have a block in place. The most glorious moment of our Persian-Pounding came in 1884, when, upon taking Ergili, we captured Persian artillery! There was much rejoicing! Pepe was summoned from his gum-deprived funk and set to work doing the job he lives for—commanding our most glorious artillery! With him in command, we quickly took Tarsus and Pasgadae, liberating even more glorious artillery to serve the French cause! With the heroic efforts of Pepe and our glorious bombadiers, we have cleared the mountains of the Putrid Persians and have them by the throat.

Persia: Bactra and Samaria are set up to go down next turn. The air force can re-base to Pasgardae which will bring the next 4 cities under our heel, including the capitol. I took Antioch with minimal bombardment as I wanted the airport intact, and we got a Barracks too. With Bactra taken, we will probably get open rail into Antioch, and you can heal my two badly wounded center columns up in one turn. Persia should cease to exist in 5-10 turns. Pepe and his artillery would love to have a role in the sack of Persepolis 8-). He has 6 arty now and a cat that can upgrade when it can get to Antioch.

Rome: Yeah well, I’ve set poor Caesar up for a fall 8-). The arty stack-of-doom and enough tanks to do the job are stashed around Hayu K’meer (by Sirian and others). I contributed the stack-o-armor in New Chartres just ready to rip into Jerusalem and the buildup in Pisae. Have fun 8-). Oh, and I mis-clicked and we have a lone tank near Rome, please get it out of there next turn 8-0. After a turn to get him out and set up your assault your way, you should have one more chance to use you glorious Muskatroopers 8-).

Computers in 3 turns; Seti pre-built in Toulouse.

--Cy

Charis <<< up
Jaffa <<< on deck
Sirian
Cy

What is this? I have found the problem. Some imbecile has issued my Muskatroopers gum! Sacre bleu! They are sitting around chewing instead of fighting!

:eek:

:o

:sad:

Ah but X-man better watch out now! PEPE HAS GLORIOUS ETC ARTILLERY!!! :lol:


Sid needs to talk to someone from 1Cav

Sid needs to talk to a bunch of guys! :) Still, all in all, the game is fun to play, and could be further improved yet with a little more polish. It might be too unbalancing to allow paratroops to drop and attack. After all, this IS a turn-based game, and on that level nothing at all is realistic. However, if bombers can fly out of any mud village, it's absurd to require an airport for paratroopers to operate.


You would almost think I was plotting an invasion of our good friend Rome

By all rights, Rome has redeemed itself. However... there IS still that matter of their declaration of war against us oh so long ago! You do the crime... you do the time! :lol:


The arty stack-of-doom and enough tanks to do the job are stashed around Hayu K’meer

Ya know, for a jokey mudhole in the middle of the desert, positioned not at all strategically, but rather because it was close to my fighting that turns, and a convenient place to stack some spare units where I could find them...

...that place has built the UN and become a world-famous center of French culture and focus of French military prowess.

And the saddest part of all is... I LOVE IT! :rotfl:

Eep. Maybe I'm catching Charisitis after all. :P


- Sirian

:hammer: :jump: :hammer:

Most glorious!

And the saddest part of all is... I LOVE IT!

:lol: :goodjob:

Well THAT went well! I was picturing more resistance, but our firepower is just too withering. The 'rebase' of bombers in any mudhole is... uh, 'nice' but that one doesn't make sense for me. The paratroopers not being able to do anything the round they land sounds rough, but the alternative is very likely overwhelming. Yet... for late in the game, how dominant can slow attack 6 offense be? To be consistent, the rule should be that they can paradrop out of any city, not just one with airport. Hmmm.... would an "airstrip" outside of town that the workers can make in about double the turns to make a fortification make sense? Only on grass or plains. Capacity '1' on the planes, can rebase there, paratroop from there (airlift out?). Downside would be how cheap that would be compared to a full airport. But it doesn't connect cities, no vet-plane building, low capacity, no superiority missions (lack of radar tower).

It seems I'm up?! :D I'm going to have to ponder the Rome situation. :rolleyes:

Charis

Well, if the patch hadn't added the "J" key group move command, I would have had to have dropped this game long ago 8-).

As it is, you just haven't lived until you have moved a stack of around 100 arty with the group command over non-rail squares. You click, go feed the dogs, get something to eat, come back, and it is still moving--"squeak-rumble-squeak, squeak-rumble-squeak, squeak-rumble-squeak, squeak-rumble-squeak, squeak-rumble-squeak, squeak-rumble-squeak, squeak-rumble-squeak, squeak-rumble-squeak, squeak-rumble-squeak, squeak-rumble-squeak...).

Now a stack this size is pointless, as one 1/2 that size can take a city from 20+ to a size 1 with no improvements and every defender down to 1 hp, but you just have to move it once for the fun of it. It puts a whole new light on the phrase "stack-o-doom".

What a hoot.

Well, I guess it depends on your computer :scan:

I pulled up one of my save files that I hadn't deleted yet that was just before a diplo victory (which I did because the game was already won...), and built 100 artillery, and tried it...takes 25 seconds to move them all with the j command :smoke:

Hey it gets worse with Radar artillery. The animations are longer, especially the firing animation.

1888 AD (0) - Review of the status shows we're looking to continue or finish
the smackdown of Persia. Bactra and Samaria should go down next turn, and a
set of 4 is within range of Pepe's killer squadrons after that.
There is a build up of troops outside Rome. Treaties end with Rome in 8,
conventiently right about when Persia should be no more. NO treaties with
Greece, nor should we start any new ones! SETI due very soon.

1890 AD (1) - Persia begs for peace (when they really should be groveling)

Less shelling than normal at Bactra, and it costs us a tank. But we take
out about four inf and a rifle, and the city. Similar at Samaria, light
shelling, tanks cruise in, one becomes elite, city falls.

Jeepers!! Pepe has REALLY amassed quite a squadron of doom! Took forever
to rebase to Pasagardae :P

Five immortals raid Madagascar :P

1892 AD (2) - First thing to drop this round is the barracks at Perseopolis!

Three up, three down at Sardis! :hammer:

Ack! I thought a stack of seven tanks was enough at the Gordium know.
Eight ancient defenders. Too bad no cavs left... hmmm... there *ARE* some.
Can Gordium stand?? Neigh! And next to the cav a sleeping TANK ARMY??
Sheesh, gross display of power there. Well, they can't climb aboard a
helicopter, so they go back to sleep til Rome.

1894 AD (3) - Would I like to hold elections at the U.N.??? Sorry, no,
I'm trying to wipe out one of the voting members. Talk to the hand!

Time for Gordium to go down. Somehow more inf appear. Send an elite or
vet? Good think I picked elite, it went down to 1hp. And... in the
victory, a great leader Richelieu was borne!! :hammer:
(Kind of expected one with the huge number of elite victories goin' on)

Finally, the Gordium Knot slips.

Hmmm, we can make mech infantry now? What does Pepe think?? Not on MY
shift he says!! "What good is infantry that runs ahead faster than our
glorious artillery?!" Others in the government disagree, and say we have
to modernize our military. Pepe spits gum at them!

1895 AD (4) - The gum emblazened general did not take kindly to Pepe!
He *immediately* invited Richilieu over for a discussion of modernization
of the army, and in fact Richy formed a new army brigade... of *MECH* inf!
When Pepe heard the news he just about went ballistic! As Field Commander of
the Persian forces, he *ordered* the Army not to leave his sight, he would
be all over it like foul odor on a bull! Pepe also ordered the rush
production of a personal transport for himself, this army, and glorious
artillery, to get them all off Persia and into the next conflict when
the time arose. This transport is with a battleship outside Samaria.
In fact an entire Carrier group is put under Pepe's command!! :hammer:
His personal helicopter is shifted over to Samaria as well.

Susa is captured, and then... Perseopolis! (The airport mysteriously
disappeared.) Next cities have a bit of a gap, and we request a settler.
That leaves only *THREE* Persian cities left.

Darn... miniturization is a wicked expensive tech. We'll not make radar,
methinks.

1896 AD (5) - Lots of quelling, resistances ending.
1898 AD (6) - Global warming at Milday d'Winter. That's ironic! :P
We found "Kouming Phour Ewe" to get a few extra steps towards Arbela.
Shelling takes out the Arbela airport (figures). And 13 of 14 citizens.
It's captured this round as well :D

Ghulaman is the last city of Persia left. It is SO toast. This next turn.

Pepe is not far from there, on a hill with a mini-SOD (stack of Doom).
He's about ready to head to Samaria and lead the way to Rome.

Be fair about the treaties, consolidate, get in position all set,
outside his territory, then let him have it. We still remember the
early days!! :hammer:

Charis
Jaffa <<< up
Sirian <<< on deck
Cy

Good luck,
Charis

"His Personal Helicopter" :rotfl:

"Talk to the Hand!" :lol:

Mini-SOD :rotfl:


:shotgun:

0) 1898AD Let's see. Miniaturization in 17 turns (!) Offshore Platforms, eh -- now there's something I've never built.

What happened in Athos? Production slipped down below 100 shields? Did somebody irrigate somewhere -- no, one of the Porthos citizens sneaked in and stole a mine! If Pepe wasn't so busy in Persia, there would be serious trouble.

1) 1900AD Okay, X-man, you're going down! Pepe, give the word!

Two infantry, and a longbowman, and the Persians are history [party] And who's this, clambering out of the rubble? Why, De Gaulle, a pleasure to meet you. Again :) Have some tanks, go make an army or something.

Okay, we need to get our troops out of Persia. Pepe orders the completion of the airport at Pasargadae, which gives us four airports on the island, and catches the first flight out to Pisae, to supervise preparations for the conquest of Rome.

Pepe's second-in-command, Lieutenant Fifi, organises a transport for the mech infantry army and the precious artillery.

Round up some of our sleeping settlers, and build some, err, "holiday camps" along the Greek borders. Oooh, I'm sorry, Alexander. Did those squares use to be in your territory? :)

Two turns of MPP with Rome remaining...

Rome calls to cancel our RoP agreement. Is the AI actually taking notice of our troop buildup on his borders?

2) 1902AD Our mega-artillery-stack-of-DOOM moves to the Roman border to be commanded personally by Pepe himself.

We complete the SETI program. Whooo! Alien musketeers!

Rome comes calling to complain about a couple of workers we still have in his territory. Whatever. We'll just move them away behind this *huge* pile of tanks that we happen to have here. Will that be okay, Ceasar?

3) 1904AD We cancel our expired MPP with Rome. Ceasar is annoyed. Such ingratitude! We declare war!

Target one, Jerusalem. Brief artillery bombardment by a mere half-dozen units reduces both defenders to 1hp, and our tanks roll over the town (auto-razed).

Target two, Viroconium. Bombers out of Pisae take the town down to size 6. Our two cavalry units kill two defending riflemen, and then we run out of cavalry units. Drat.

Target three, Antium. Bombing runs out of Pisae (again), and captured by tanks.

Pepe leads our artillery stack onwards towards Rome!

4) 1906AD Our glorious tanks capture the Roman capital! Three times! (Rome razed, capital moves to Cumae, we capture Cumae, capital moves to Veii, we capture Veii :) ).

Another Great Leader is inspired to join the glorious French cause!

5) 1908AD A tank finds a barbarian camp in the north Persia mountains. We win 25g! Ooooh :)

Our glorious tanks and artillery and etc continue to advance through Rome. We capture Neapolis this turn.

Rome -- a light snack between meals.

:hammer:

OMG I bust a gut reading that!

M'eers... in... space.... (liftoff!)

Not goin' there but if we did... WHO ON EARTH but our glorious wunderkinder, the Musketeers, could POSSIBLY figure out how to construct and fly a spaceship?? I mean, sheeeeesh, these other clowns can't even stuff a 20 pound projectile in a howitzer. (Is it a union thing?!)

Fifi's Garden spot :lol:
:rotfl:

Charis

Hmm, Domination is enabled, right? Should be fairly close then (ya, well last time I thought that...) Make sure you don't neglect those temples. :)

EDIT -- oops, my bad then. As Sirian pointed out, Domination's not enabled, so feel free to ignore this post. :)

No, it's not. Domination and Space disabled. My turn here, but not sure when I will play it. Cy's got other matters occupying his attention, too, so... Charis, if you're on Famine, feel free to jump in. Otherwise I'll get to it as I can.

- Sirian

I'm still up in this game. If anybody else is sitting around begging for something to do, feel free to jump in and grab a turn. I expect to play by the end of the holiday weekend, probably, but may fit in the two 5cc games first, plus lots of other stuff, etc etc. If I do get around to this one, I'll post a "got it" before I start playing so there's no conflicts with anybody jumping in. Hope those of you celebrating have a productive weekend.

- Sirian