So, we're on a Custom_Continents map, standard-size, normal speed, Prince difficulty. Everything else is random -- temperature, sea level, # of continents, etc. I've seen both pangeas and island chains with this setting. I like the randomness of it. But it does make things a bit crazy sometimes.

Here's a picture of our starting land.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18-start.JPG

Please make comments/suggestions. That whale down south intrigues me, as does the plains hill (the only non-2/1 start square -- it's a 2/2). Since we're so near water, though, a decision of some sort will need to be made. Our scout won't be able to see much more during his move, so we're pretty well stuck deciding based off of what we have here.

Arathorn

set lurk mode: on.
:coffee:

set lurk mode: on.
:coffee:

So have I...

interesting...

where to settle? On the spot?
We can irrigate 4 grass tiles for 3f each. The forest chops will give us an advantage early on for 90 shields that can be used towards settlers + worker
the whale will be eventually within our borders.

all the water will give us eventually 2f + 3s

The plains will be 1f for a long time unless we settle on the hill (and would be able to irrigate)

If we move 1 tile east to settle we might be lucky to get a fish/crab/clam that might be in the fog. And still have 4 grass tiles and enjoy the hill shields?

Maybe I think east would be a good move, go for BW as soon as possible to start a worker to match the tech and use the chop forest to get ahead.
Start a warrior first though for some added defense

I hate wasting a forest by settling on it. The other option is to throw away +2 health by missing the fresh water. I'll probably move NE first and see what that reveals. Can always move back south and end by the water. Don't really want to waste those pigs, either.

With no other comments, though, I think I'll start playing this one.

Arathorn

I don't like moving to the plains hill because we'll loose the sheep which might be our only food bonus. As for the whale, the only way i see to get it into the city radius is to settle on the sheep which is not good. Since the tech that allows to connect whales is a long way up the tech tree i would not move closer to it assuming that we'll expand our culture fast enough to grab it when we know optics. But i may be wrong here and maybe it does make sence to move one step closer. Of course the scout should move first and then maybe we'll see some other good tiles.

I think that early growth is good even for civ4, so i would go for a worker first and research the worker techs. Assuming there are no other good tiles around Moscow we need to research Animal Husbandry (to build pasture on the sheep) and Bronze Working (for chop-rushing). These techs are also good because BW allows to see copper and AH allows to see horses and leads to Writing->CoL which is our long-term goal. I would research BW before AH, because otherwise some worker turns will be wasted during the time after the worker has completed the pasture already but we still don't know BW (alternatively we can mine some hills during that time). So i would chop the forest while researching AH and then build a pasture ASAP. Since we have what seems to be a low food start, it would be nice to direct forest chops into food (settlers/workers) and grow as much as possible, so i would use the trick that i found in the strategy forum of switching production to settler/worker only on the turn of the chop and building something else during the rest of time (propably warriors that can be used for exploration and later for cheap MP). I think it makes sense to produce another worker too before the settler, because in civ4 unimproved tiles are much weaker then improved ones, especially the bonus tiles, and i like to have a worker ready to build improvements on bonus tiles for the new city immidiately after settling.

Well, I went with an entirely different plan. I'm not sure I like it, though.

I moved NE to see what I could see, with the settler. The scout's move NW to the hill revealed nothing. Recommended spot were original spot or plains hill NW again. I decided we could cram a second city down by the sheep, so I moved NW again. That extra shield (err...hammer) early is quite nice. I thought I saw corn there, too, so I started researching Agriculture.

Turns out it was sugar, not corn. Sigh. Built a warrior, then a scout, then one turn of barracks before starting our worker at size 2. Scout popped a goodie hut for cash early. Kept exploring.

Second scout popped yet another scout (making 3) in 3360. Who gets tech from huts? Not me -- at least, only VERY rarely.

One of our scouts in the west meets Bismarck in 3280. Hatty shows up in 3000 BC. They're both quite a ways west. Found Egypt's homeland, but the most direct route to us is cut off by water. We're on some kind of connected archipelago-turned-pangea map, it appears. I mean, we can go a LONG ways, but there's all kinds of water all over the place. So far, the east has been free of opponents.

"When Animals Attack" became the hit TV show in Russia around 3280 BC. I've seen the question asked about panthers. Well, they definitely do exist.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18-panther.JPG

Fortunately, they're no match for our scout. I'm sure being on a forested hill was just a coincidence that didn't help our chances at all. :rolleyes:

More panthers and lions and even some wolves towards the end. Our scouts killed them all. The western two scouts are now Woodsman I but need healing before continued exploration.

We got more gold from another hut. 3 huts -- gold twice and a scout. There may well be others around.

Anyway, back at Moscow, we finished the worker, who went to chop some forests by the river to get some hammers (and some higher food squares). One chop completed so far, sent to the settler, while producing another warrior to watch over potential city sites. Another warrior queued to help Moscow get to size 3. Worker irrigating with that in mind, too.

We're working on researching the wheel, oh-so-very-slowly. Commerce? We don't need no steenkin' commerce. And we have very little, too -- basically what the palace produces (8).

I feel like these opening turns were very sub-optimal. I don't know how to do them better, though. Settling in place was probably the best option, but it just didn't feel right at the time.

Anyway, I did at least get a lot of exploring done.

The north (and mostly east)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18-north.JPG

The south (and mostly west, as east is water)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18-south.JPG

BTW, is there any way to make the "fog of war" less oppressively dark? I understand dimming some, but I can't tell the difference between land and water without mouse-over, let alone land types. The info is all there, because you can mouse-over and get it, but that's extremely tedious.

So, you can see I have a couple of potential city-sites mapped. I think we should push west early, as the north is pretty wide open at this point. A good food source may well be first priority and Moscow can become a good unit factory, I believe. One of the lighter red dots to the north would be my choice, with the other dot a later fill-in type dot, when we get around to it. It's valuable (2+ resources), but we won't lose the spot.

Roster:
Arathorn
ThERat -- UP NOW
Obormot -- on deck
Speaker
Jabah

Arathorn

Arathorn, agree with moving NE to see whether there is anything interesting, likewise the scout should move NW to see beyond those hills.

And, Obormot, I was exactly advocating your thoughts about chops and using them for workers/settlers. That's the way to go for Civ4 starts (and here we got plenty of forest). I also agree with the starting techs AH and BW, I would go for BW first to be able to chop.

ok, forget about my comments then. I would settle west next near rice and fish. By the way, how many turns do we all take? 15 or 10?

Sorry. ThERat, take 20. Then 10 for everybody else. I took 30 to start.

As for comments, please make them. Better opening play is something I feel I really need to work on. If nobody points out the flaws, how will I learn? Trial-and-error can take a long time...and I'm just not groking the start right now. In retrospect, I believe my start was ... sub-optimal, to be diplomatic. But I'm not sure how much of that is hindsight and how much I could/should have known at the time.

Arathorn

Well, i don't think this opeining was worse then mine. At least we got more fertile land and that is nice. Researching Agriculture definitely wasn't a waste even though it sugar and not corn since we wan't farms and not cottages anyway. I prefer building the worker at size 1, but this is just a matter of taste, it doesn't change the outcome much. We need those water resources soon for the commerce. I would research fishing next and chop a work boat in the new city. I would rather settle the one near the fish and get rice later. Then chop an obelisk and expand to rice. I don't agree on leaving the other dot for backfilling, the position is nice and i would like to settle it ASAP. The variant seems to be hurting in the early game much more then in the late game, so every coin counts. Another good commerce site (though very far away) is near those furs. But i think it is worth going that far. It also looks like Calendar is a good tech for us (incense and sugar), so that is another argument to take Math->Currency path to CoL rather then Priesthood one.

And, Obormot, I was exactly advocating your thoughts about chops and using them for workers/settlers. That's the way to go for Civ4 starts (and here we got plenty of forest). I also agree with the starting techs AH and BW, I would go for BW first to be able to chop.

I think it actually depends on the starting position. With high-food, low shield starts i would do exactly opposite trick and convert food to shields rather then shields to food. Espesially on higher levels with just 4 happy faces. Sorry for the offtop. BTW, how many happy faces are default for Prince level? Never played it before. Moved straight to Emperor after playing an extremely boring game on Noble.

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_BC-2000.Civ4SavedGame)

Pre-Turn
hmm, the worker is irrigating, think early in the game we should chop all the way for workers/settler
wake up the worker to send to forest next turn

1. 2760BC
worker moves onto forest

2. 2720BC
worker starts to chop, and a scout ends up next to a lion, while our warrior near the capital spots a stron bear

3. 2680BC
well, the lion loses, we get a warrior and build is settler, so the forest chop will go into the settler

4. 2640BC
scout in the north stomp onto a mountian devide, which will block Germany a little
the hammers has gone into the settler, switch back to rax so we can continue to grow

5. 2600BC
we get the wheel, choiceas are mysticism, fishing for that fish, archery and AH, go for that to reveal the horses
a scout survives an encounter with a lion
our capital has grown to pop 3 and worker jumps on another forest

6. 2560BC
again, worker start to chop
by the way, we have 2 commerce now with the river commerce as well :)

7. 2520BC
swap back to settler now

8. 2480BC
forest chop is done and settler will be ready next turn
there is a wolf and that bear still near our city, but I play defensively without archers

9. 2440BC
hungry wolf attacked our arrior on a hill and of course didn't make it
settler goes into position, decide to irrigate now a tile while on rax
stare at our city screen and then then screen goes blank, thanks so much, at least I got the autosave option
on 2 turns, but a complete crash in such early times isn't great, didn't have that for a while
(load autosave from 2480BC)

10. 2400BC
found St. Petersburg and start a rax for now

11. 2360BC
first tile irrigated, we need to chop more for faster workers

12. 2320BC
worker climbs hill for another chop, our scouts are reaching the last limits of the continent, and one is promoted woodsman II

13. 2280BC
worker starts chop on hill, rax will be done next turn anyway

14. 2240BC
one of our scoyts is eating up by a bear, though I moved him away from bear, the border expansion of Egypt via city settleing
had shifted him on grass next to bear :mad:

15. 2200BC
AH is in, short detour for fishing to grab the fish
don't want to spil the mood, but horses are really far off in the west

16. 2160BC
worker now starts to mine hill
spot another horse source all the way in the NW, well....

17. 2120BC
zzzz

18. 2080BC
one of the scouts gets redlined

19. 2040BC
Fishing is in, it's either sailing, writing or archery. Since we need some added defense IMHO, go for archery
suggest then writing and CoL, since we can now work the fish (2f + 2g) research drops by 1 turn
we also have another worker, we need a settler next but would like to grow a little as well
swap St. Petersburg to work boat, mine is done
new worker goes to St. Petersburg to chop the forest on plains for fast work boat and then irrigation

20. 2000BC
the scout moving back towards our land busting fog actually spots another hut, that can be popped next turn

I suggest to build another settler next in Moskow for settling the south
in order to secure one religion I would go full steam for CoL after archery


a few pictures about our situation:

horses where are thou? can you spot those 2 sources
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lotr182000a.jpg

our homeland
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lotr182000b.jpg

the scout in the north next to a hut, note the horses there as well
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lotr182000c.jpg

Just a quick hello to say I am leaving for the WE right now, will not be able to play before Monday. I will be able to comment (from work) during Monday before playing.

have fun

Jabah

Sorry. ThERat, take 20. Then 10 for everybody else. I took 30 to start.

30-20-15 and then 10 apiece will keep the turn numbers more even. At least on Normal speed. I'm probably going to make that the RB SG standard.


- Sirian

Even/natural turn numbers are good. I'll take that suggestion.

Obormot, play 15. -- UP NOW
Speaker is on deck.

Arathorn

At least on Normal speed
Are you guys playing on Epic speed or Normal speed ?

Normal speed, for now, at least.

Arathorn

set lurk mode: on.
:coffee:
Certainly, these are the best games around.

@Zavior
Clearly.

@TheRat
How did you get the turns until growth/production done to appear?

OK, i got it. Will play shortly.

@TheRat
How did you get the turns until growth/production done to appear?there is an option under 'option' I think. Should be clear which one, maybe something about detailed info or so.

Just try it out.

OT: Its detailed city info I think

pre-flight
- Everything looks fine

Early
- Produce another worker in Moscow hurriing it with a forest chop. The work boat is ready and St. Petesburg now has a lot of food. I think it will grow quickly to size 4, which is maximum for now and then build settlers and workers. With fish and later rice it should be pretty fast. Later we can hire a lot of specialists there.
- One of our scouts pops a hut and gets experience. I promote him to Woodsman II.
- Archery is researched and i start Writing.

Middle
- Change Writing to Mysticism to chop an Obelisk in St. Petersburg to get rice, and research it in 5 turns. Made a mistake with chop timing and the chop went towards barracks. Not a big deal since they were almost ready and the overflow went towards obelisk. Built an archer in Moscow.
- Moscow is growing slowly and there is nothing we can really do about it. We need settlers, but producing them in Moscow is too slow now and with chops we won't have any good tile left. Decide to wait for St. Petersburg to get that rice farm.

Late
- Build another archer in Moscow.
- Our scout survives a barb warrior attack.
- Workers build a road to connect cities for the coins from trade route.

I really don't know which city to settle next. Hooking up copper is good of course, but there are now food bonuses near it. The city in the south that would grab sheep/clams is good, but we can easily grab it later. There are many good sites in the west, but they are all pretty far away. I would still go and settle in the west. We have some gold in the treasury and maintenace won't hurt us that much. There is also a possibility to block the chokepoint completely if we settle there. I would go for pigs/clams or corn/horse towns first, and then maybe even the town near the furs for their commerce.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_BC-1400.Civ4SavedGame

I'm at work now, but will get it when I get home in 2 hours or so.

BUT

I have a request to the rest of the team. Please post screenshots with your game reports. To me, there is nothing more boring than a big lump of text with no pictures. It only takes a few minutes, and adds some "spice" to the thread. And how else can we keep our lurkers interested.;)

Got it. Will play later this afternoon.

Sorry, i didn't post a picture because there was no changes, only a few worker improvements added.

1400BC (IT): Swap Moscow over to another Settler and start sending military units toward Egypt. I've created a dotmap for the southwest.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_Southwest_Dotmap.jpg

I'll let someone else try the north and northwest. :)

1360BC (1): Moscow and St. Petersburg are now connected.

1320BC (2): Mine another hill near Moscow for increased worker/settler production. Forest chop finishes St. Petersburg's Obelisk.

1280BC (3): Finish the Barracks in St. Petersburg.

1240BC (4): St. Petersburg still has 36 extra shields from its forest chop, and I put them into a worker.

Complete Writing. Start Meditation toward Code of Laws.

1200BC (5): Sign Open Borders with Bismarck to keep exploring.

IT- Archer successfully defeats a barb warrior and promotes. Bismarck builds Stonehenge.

1160BC (6): Here is something I have never seen before. Supply costs? We have a scout in German territory. Is that where the charge comes from?
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_Supply_Costs.jpg

1120BC (7)-1040BC (9): Lost these notes when my power went out. :sad:

1000BC (10): Meditation comes in. Start research on Priesthood toward CoL.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_Meditation.jpg

Moscow builds settler, who I send west toward the pink dot. Those furs will give us 4 gold each, and we'll be able to support them all, with farmed corn and fishing nets. Forest chops on the furs will help build the fishing boat and library. An archers is already on its way there for a city garrison.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_Pink_Dot.jpg

Notes- The worker pair is building a road to the west to speed along future settlers. I've sent most of our military out there to push back the fog of war and prevent barbarians. One or two more units should render that area totally safe and allow a farmer's gambit over there.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_1000bc1.jpg

LotR18 - 1000BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_BC-1000.zip)

Middle
- Change Writing to Mysticism to chop an Obelisk in St. Petersburg to get rice, and research it in 5 turns. Made a mistake with chop timing and the chop went towards barracks. Not a big deal since they were almost ready and the overflow went towards obelisk. Built an archer in Moscow.


Emm, I personally hate to build obelisk. Either the leader is creative, or build (chop) stonehege, or build library. 30 hammer for nothing but 1 culture per turn looks kind of wasteful ...

Guys, when do you want to build pyramids? Or do you quit the idea for absence of stone?

"Got it", but won't play until tonight (in 10-12 hours), so any comments until then is more than welcome.

I tried a "northern dotmap", but only from the info from the thread (game not open), so lots of fogs under which could be bonus so I didn't try to dotmap around it.

Maybe you should refuse open borders and try to seal or peninsula, ie settle my northern "red dot" relative early (not soon, as there are higher priorities and more likely lots of barbarians there).

Also, depending on where is the settler right now, I wonder if we should not settle "yellow dot", to both seal the south and secure the horses before going for the fur at "purple dot". Up to now, I have not seen AI using settlers in galley too early, so maybe we should swap the foundation order ?

On the "southern dotmap", I think I would prefer the "orangish dot" just west of the copper, it gets more or less the same things, but will make a "canal" between the long inner sea and the ocean, and from what I can see, it is the only place where is it possible. Any way, this is not on the next 10turns priority as well so we will have time to compare the advantages of any position.

Jabah

edit : my "red dot" could be also 1 square west (as the corn is within "yellow dot") to get all the little peninsula shown in Speakers picture...

I've had some good experiences with sealing borders. I kind of like the idea of doing yellow dot first and denying Open Borders. That will give us a ton of land to expand into peacefully. And peaceful expansion is definitely easier than taking land from an enemy in Civ4.

For the dotmap of the north, I would move the southern dark orange dot one west and put another dot on the eastern edge of the ithmus to grab the incense we have over there. That dot would be either 4 NE of St. Pete or 3 NE and one E of St Pete, I think. Definitely room for two good cities there.

If we're going to claim the eastern ithmus (a good idea, I think), red dot (either place) to block off Germany fairly soon is going to be important. We'll need to cancel OB, too, at that time.

Interesting times lie ahead.

Arathorn

----------------------------New entries----------------------------
Turn 75 (1000 BC)
User comment: St Peters is at its maximum happiness, so it is swapped to maximum hammer and no growth. Moscow could have 1 more inhabitant, so it is swapped to max food (with very little production and commerce for a few turn)

Turn 76 (975 BC)
User comment: Since the forrest next to the copper is likely to become a town, I decide to cut the tree there to speed the Library in St Peters

Turn 77 (950 BC)
St. Petersburg's borders expand

Turn 78 (925 BC)
Tech learned: Priesthood
User comment: Archer is the south (around fur) end next to 2 barbarian warriors, he is in forrest so chances are he will manage to survive.


Turn 79 (900 BC)
Research begun: Pottery
Research begun: Sailing
Research begun: Code of Laws
User comment: Deliberating what to research (there was a picture, but it "disappeared" as well as my former comments), granaries (Pottery - 6 or 8t) would be good to save time growing, Lighthouse (Sailing - 8t or 6t, the other number) would allow more commerce as well when growing. Since right now there is no possibily to grow, I decide to go for Code of Law at something like 27turns...

IBT
Archer defeats (2.22/3): Barbarian Warrior
Archer loses to: Barbarian Warrior (0.96/2)
User comment: unfurtunaly he didn't survive the second one, we need to send a remplacement there. For some reasons unknown to me I can't manage to upload some (small 60k) picture, so there is no picture of our archer killed by the barbarians


Turn 80 (875 BC)
Novgorod founded
Novgorod begins: Library
Novgorod begins: Obelisk
User comment: Novgorod want its border expanded asap to get the corn and the very needed gems (luxury) and more important to seal the southern peninsula, so obeliks instead of library to be helped with forrest chop (and working the horses when in pasture instead of growing fast)

St. Petersburg finishes: Library

Turn 81 (850 BC)
St. Petersburg begins: Archer
Moscow grows: 5
User comment: Archer first to remove the barbarian threat in the south. Moscow is swapped to no growth and max production again.

Turn 82 (825 BC)
User comment: nothing special.


Turn 83 (800 BC)
Warrior promoted: Combat I
User comment: the 'exploring' warrior going towards the south 'meet' the barbarian archer killer (with 2 promotions), so I promote and hide in forrest .


Turn 83 (800 BC)
St. Petersburg finishes: Archer

Turn 84 (775 BC)
St. Petersburg begins: Settler

Turn 85 (750 BC)
User comment: The worker on forrest hill facing St Peter should deforrest and mine the grass-hill to speed the settler. Depending on barbarians activity, the (soon to arrive) settler should either go for the 'fur city' or 'copper city' (west of copper).There is also 3 egyptian warriors hidden between the pig and clam, probably going for barbarians (one is slightly injured). When we connect the gems, both Moscow and St Peter could grow again, problem is that it will take a while and Moscow will grow only while working unimproved grassland, a lighthouse there would be very nice for this kind of time, we probably should research sailing soon for that (same with granaries for not 'overfooded' cities).


Jabah

Attached are the save and a picture of our southern part. (same, can't upload, so I attached)

* Yawn *

Lurk: Jabah, I really like your writeup format. Very easy to read though and note what's what.

Since the forrest next to the copper is likely to become a town, I decide to cut the tree there to speed the Library in St Peters
I didn't quite understand this comment. You know that we won't ever build cottages right? Or is the comment meant that we will found a city there?

By the way, I usually try and get CoL via the oracle. Are we not attempting to get that wonder at all? I don't think we can afford to exapnd much faster than we do already since our income will collapse. So, building that powerful wonder would help. maybe we could get theology with it then.

The high-commerce spot (pink dot will allow us to support another city site. That's why I suggested we settle it first.

I don't understand why are we building a library in Moscow, it is not producing any beakers and won't be able to produce any for quite some time. It won't be able to hire a scientist too, because of its low food. I think Moscow should build military units, workers and settlers, depending on what we need most, or maybe a wonder. Oracle or Pyramids may be nice, but unfortunately we don't have stone or marble IIRC. I think we should keep on expanding, it may slow our research down a bit at the moment, but it will pay off later. I suggest to hire 2 scentists in St. Petersburg and work fish and rice to make up for increased maintenance. I agree that next city should propably be near the furs at the pink dot. Furs generate a ton of commerce. That city should go for a library straight away, not for the scientists, just to multiply the commerce.

Actually, I'd build a workboat and then a granary first in Pink Dot, before a library. Growing faster (and thus working more fur tiles) will actually add more commerce than the library multiplier will. That is, until we run out of furs tiles to work, but that will not be until size 6.

They will be sped along with f(u)rest-chops. :lol:

I didn't quite understand this comment. You know that we won't ever build cottages right? Or is the comment meant that we will found a city there?


Of course, I mean it should be a CITY not a town (I should pay attention and use the correct word :-) )



I don't understand why are we building a library in Moscow, it is not producing any beakers and won't be able to produce any for quite some time. It won't be able to hire a scientist too, because of its low food


For Moscow library, I was not sure, there was some hammers already invested, so I continue it. Moscow has some commerce anyway (at least 10), because of Palace, and will have more if we have a lighthouse there someday

But I agree, now Moscow should be building military (archer/axe) while St Peter should build a few settlers.

Switching to specialists in St Peters might be a little early, we need the food and/or hammer for settlers/units now.

Actually, I'd build a workboat and then a granary first in Pink Dot, before a library. Growing faster (and thus working more fur tiles) will actually add more commerce than the library multiplier will. That is, until we run out of furs tiles to work, but that will not be until size 6.

They will be sped along with f(u)rest-chops.


Should probably not deforrest the fur as a forrest is the only (afaik) 'improvement' compatible with camp, so it is either a forrested camp or a bare tundra/plain camp...
There are also some minor twists : we don't know how to build granary and can't make more than 4 (soon5) people happy.



The high-commerce spot (pink dot will allow us to support another city site. That's why I suggested we settle it first.


I think the yellow dot is still a better idea (first) as
- it will bring gem (only pre-calendar lux around) soon and our cities are stuck to size 4 because of happiness.
- it will sealed the access
- it secure horse (but they are some in the south as well)
- there are a few barbarians in the fur forrest (3 minus 1 dead last time)


By the way, I usually try and get CoL via the oracle. Are we not attempting to get that wonder at all?


I didn't realised that, sorry, but on the other hand, our production (any city) is not that high and without marble, it doesn't looks like an easy challenge.

I still think we should settle copper next to build a more decent military to go after barbarian and be ready IF egypt has some stupid ideas.

Jabah

Roster:
Arathorn -- UP NOW
ThERat -- on deck
Obormot
Speaker
Jabah

Long time since we had a roster! Anyway, I got it. As far as expanding goes, courhouses help with that a fair bit, too, as they cut maintenance. An earlyish FP would help even more. Techs will help solve most of the issues, though.

Arathorn

Sorry for the sparse notes, but I'm playing not at my normal computer.

Built some military to fight fog, but we're paying some semi-serious expenses on it now. Yellow dot got attacked by a barb warrior. Our archer won pretty easily. We have a second archer there now, as well as a chariot. One archer is promoted to City Defense II. Most of the rest of our forces are out fog-busting. But since they're outside of our cultural boundaries, they're costing us money. I think they're valuable, but I'm not sure.

I went for founding pink dot. But Egyptian's culture is already stopping over into its zone. We don't have the water, but a bit of time with our culture will be helpful. They can't flip us, because it's over water. And we will get those furs eventually.

I've been roading up around yellow dot. When the border expands, we can farm the corn. But we can't mine the gems yet -- we need iron working to chop the jungle first.

Our science is way down -- like 60%. But we're getting closer to Code of Laws. And I think we need more cities. Actually, we're paying 4 gold for units at this point. I'm just not sure what else to build.

I would definitely NOT sign Open Borders with Egypt at this point. We have too much to lose and too litle to gain, IMO.

Sorry for the disjointed report. Life's been a bit hectic.

Arathorn

Roster:
Arathorn
ThERat -- UP NOW
Obormot -- on deck
Speaker
Jabah

got it,

I agree we shoudln't sign any open borders for now. This gives us the chance to settle all those nice spots. I would extand towards the north as well to grab those horses, but since we are heading west, that might not be necessary.

Without a chance to open the game at work, it would be nice to get other input about next points to settle.

I would need a swap if Rat plays his turn fast :) I'll be able to play on friday.

I went for founding pink dot. But Egyptian's culture is already stopping over into its zone. We don't have the water, but a bit of time with our culture will be helpful. They can't flip us, because it's over water. And we will get those furs eventually.


Did you found at pink dot or was the egyptian's culture already there (it was in the sea last turn but I doubt it manage to expand up to pink dot that fast)


But we can't mine the gems yet -- we need iron working to chop the jungle first.


I keep forgetting that annoing detail...


Without a chance to open the game at work, it would be nice to get other input about next points to settle


(Without opening the game as well), I think we should try to go as north as possible of St Peter, to claim a 'clean' border with Germanyn (and maybe then cancel that open border agreement). PB is there was some (lots) of barbarians (very possibly a barb city) so exploration first there.

During my turns, we were also light (ie only warriors) on defense on this side

Jabah

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_BC-0250.Civ4SavedGame)

Pre-Turn
due to our fast expansion we have to run at 60% science
CoL in 13 turns
swap Moscow to Oracle sure nice to have

employed a scientist in St. Petersburg for a while
there isn't that much to do
the highlight is a barb archer showing up at Rostov as we want to build a camp
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lotr18250.jpg

step out with worker and cover with warrior and the archer disappears in the IT :)
we will get CoL in the IT which gives us happiness for confucious
and the Oracle in 2 turns, suggest to take philiosophy and taoism for free
this tech is very expensive at this stage

there is also a settler/archer pair on the way up north with an archer ahead near the choke point

Any chance I can get a swap with Obormot? I'm going away on business tomorrow, for the weekend, and would need a skip otherwise? I won't be able to play until about 6pm EST, but if Obormot hasn't played by then, does anyone mind if we swap? Thanks.

I'm fine with the swap, but Obormot would have to agree. Obormot, what do you say?

Arathorn

Of course i'm fine. I already requested a swap a few posts earlier :)

Thanks! Got it.

Roster:
Arathorn
ThERat
Obormot -- on deck -- playing Friday earliest
Speaker -- UP NOW
Jabah

Sorry for missing the obvious, Obormot. I'm a bit ... distracted these days. Should all clear up soon, I think/hope. For now, though, I'm not quite keeping up like I normally do. :( Such is life.

Arathorn

@Speaker. After the IT we get Confucianism, we will be asked whether we want to convert. I would wait one turn to make sure we get the Oracle and then chose philo. This will give us another religion, Taoism. It does not matter which religion we chose, but we should get one for our state and then with Great prophets we can start generating some cash (via the big temples). Since we can't have cottages, this extra income will prove handy, I think.

My idea of the "No Cottage Challenge" is not a heavy focus on religion. I think we all know how to make money by founding multiple religions and spreading a ton of missionaries.

250BC (IT): First things first, Rostov goes off a workboat, since we no longer control the sea down there. It swapped to a library instead. I considered an obelisk, but spreading religion will be just as effective.

We found Confusianism in St. Petersburg with Code of Laws and I work on Pottery.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_Confusianism.jpg

225BC (1): Moscow swaps off the Oracle and switches to a worker. I do not like the Philosophy plan. I've got a better one.

And this is why I hate half-assed reports like the one TheRat posted. I have no idea where the settler is headed in the north. I hope he's not supposed to be headed toward the choke, as the city is totally indefensible.
1) It's way too far away from our other cities to be offered any protection.
2) There are no good tiles for it to work besides the Corn.
3) We have no workers anywhere near there, and it will take years to send a road up there. And at 2 moves per turn on the road, it will take years to send anyone up there.
4) There are much better, closer spots that can contribute to our empire right away.
5) We can't even chop jungle yet and don't have the workforce to deal with it.

And what is the worker near the northern copper doing? Not...building a road to the choke? I recall him immediately. We have only 4 workers, and I'm not wasting one for 100 turns.You need to do better on your report TheRat. This is rediculous.

With a little micromanagement (focusing on wealth), I can get our economy to break-even. We have 2 gold in the coffers, with Pottery due in 5.

IT- Hinduism spreads to Rostov. Confusianism spreads on its own to Moscow, so I send the Confusian missionary south to Rostov.

200BC (2): Still recalling the worker.

175BC (3): Shuffling one worker south to Rostov. Moscow and St. Petersburg are as developed as they are going to be for a little while here and one worker between them should suffice.

150BC (4): Start chopping a forest near Novgorod. The shields will go into the Courthouse I switch to.

125BC (5): Camp finishes in Rostov and I start to road it.

100BC (6): Pottery is finished and Moscow swaps back over to the Oracle. Start researching Sailing, for the ability to build Lighthouses.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_Pottery.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_Oracle1.jpg

Spread Confusianism in Rostov.

75BC (7): With the Oracle, I choose the less-expensive, but significantly more useful Metal Casting.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_Metal.jpg

Nearly all of our cities will be coastal, and the Colossus will add 1 gold per tile per city for a LONG time. Moscow will need a forge first, and should be about ready to build the Colossus when our Copper gets hooked up.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_Choke.jpg
This is where we are to build our next city? I can't bear to do it. It will be a needless drain on our economy, with no workable tiles until a cultural expansion, which won't happen for a long time. Major :smoke: here I think. I'll fortify him, and the next player can decide what to do with him.

IT- We beat down the Barbarian archer.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR_-_Barb.jpg

50BC (8): The furs connect and our cities can grow again. I take them off of their non-lifestyle change diet. On second thought, I'll keep the scientist in St. Pete for a few more turns since we are close to a GP. I found Yaroslavl next to the copper and start to mine it.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR_-_Yaroslavl.jpg

25BC (9): Forest chop that I had started ahead of time, completes next to Yaroslavl, and the granary will be done next turn.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR_-_Yaroslavl2.jpg

1AD (10): Yaroslavl goes over to a library, and the copper mine will be completed in 2 turns.

We need Courthouses, granaries, and libraries in our cities, and then some solid troops.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_1AD.jpg

LotR18 - 1AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_AD-0001.zip)

And this is why I hate half-assed reports like the one TheRat posted. + You need to do better on your report TheRat. This is rediculous.well, I had 10 turns with hardly anything to do.

The settler was sent north because I somehow maybe misunderstood that the intention was to seal off the access for Germany. I normally never spread out that far, but we spread west under heavy culture pressure and I thought we wanted the seal and then slowly expand.
With Germany having no early UU, 2 archers on defense can go some way and deter attacks.

And what is the worker near the northern copper doing? Not...building a road to the choke?It was already there when I took over, I sent him back to chop some forest, but send him out again for some roading to the north due to lack of things to do. Well, look at your own comment
Moscow and St. Petersburg are as developed as they are going to be for a little while here and one worker between them should suffice.
exactly...
Moscow and St. Peter were fully developed and at health limit when I took over my turns. There was virtually nothing to do...only in the west with 2 workers there. Obviously the worker would not road all the way north with all those barbs around.


But, I will promise to write more comprehensive during my next turns. You were lucky since during your turns we got new techs, a wonder (that was an very nice delay to get metal casting, I agree it is way more useful now)

I still miss our long term strategy. We have a very hard time due to lack of irrigation and will have to rely on outher sources to improve our situation. Religion to help out in this respect (monasteries help with research as well) isn't wrong. Else, this game theme should be 'no cottages, no religion'.

Hi,

I know you're not playing a "no religion" game in addition to "no cottages", but here's one lurker who hoped you would not rely on religions to raise money. I find religions superior to cottages for income anyway... ;) But I agree that monasteries are a nice and cheap way to boost research.

By the way, I like it how Civ 4 SGs brought back the custom of adding lots of screenshots to reports. Thanks for that! :goodjob:

-Kylearan

If anybody can play today, then we can swap. Otherwise i'll play tomorrow.

Here are some strategy thoughts.

We need to get specialists. For that we need happiness and food. There are 2 ways we can get happiness from in the near future: researching Calendar will provide us with 2 luxes and hereditary rule will let us use units for happiness. I like the first way more because we'll want to switch to representation when we know the tech for it and also we'll get some high commerce tiles to work with calendar. Some of our towns have enough food with food bonuses, some don't. So we need civil service for farming. But this is not that urgent, because first we need to get happiness and because those towns without food bonuses can build military/settlers&workers for now.

Apart from specialists we can also get some commerce from trade routes. This makes currency a good research goal. So i think research order for now should be something like math->calendar->currency. We should also take advantage of coastal commerce espesially since we are going to build the colossus. Maybe someone can make a carefull dotmap that would allow us to use coastal tile most efficently (i can't launch the game now) - this is quite tricky in civ4 because of the distance limit.

We also need a confucian shrine. Moscow has the Oracle which generates some great prophet points, but we are going to build the colossus there which may result in getting a wrong leader. I would really like to get a prophet from the first attempt, because leaders will become more and more expensive since we are going for many scientists. We can just build the colossus and hope that won't have much bad luck and we'll get a prophet (because oracle was built earlier), we can build a temple before or after colossus and hire a priest or we can build the colossus in another city if we want to play it safe.

As for the shorter term plans, i think we have 2 good city sites: one near sheep/clams near Moscow and St Petersburg and another near pigs/fish in the west. I think we should settle them next now that we have our territory sealed. They won't cost us much maintenance, but will bring significant amount of commerce.

I know you're not playing a "no religion" game in addition to "no cottages", but here's one lurker who hoped you would not rely on religions to raise money. I find religions superior to cottages for income anyway... But I agree that monasteries are a nice and cheap way to boost research.

Well, i disagree here. I don't find religion that powerfull. Spreading religion gives 3 gpt (with wall street and commerce boosting buildings) for one missionary that costs 40 shields. A lib in a city with lots of cottages is far more effective. I like to spread 1 religion to get bonuses from civics, etc., but spreading a second religion just for money is not that effective imho. And monasteries are even less effective: 10% science is just 1 or 2 beakers usually, and they become obsolete quite early.

Hi,

Well, i disagree here. I don't find religion that powerfull.
I admit I haven't calculated it through scientifically, but from past experience I found I could easily maintain 100% research if I managed to spread one relgion I had a shrine for to nearly every city in the world. With cottages, it would be possible as well - but the religious way still allows you to concentrate on production in your cities, meaning you get all the science boosting buildings earlier (among other things, like military). That you will get allies and trading partners via religion is yet another advantage, and religion cannot be pillaged as towns can.

Overall, I find a well-used shrine similarly powerful, but more versatile than cottages, but YMMV of course.

And monasteries are even less effective: 10% science is just 1 or 2 beakers usually, and they become obsolete quite early.
I found that at about the time they become obsolete (and I disagree with scientific methods coming 'quite early', by the way), my empire is about to become a research powerhouse and I no longer need them, yes. But before that time, my cities usually only have libraries, so an extra 10% is noticable.

-Kylearan

If anybody can play today, then we can swap. Otherwise i'll play tomorrow.



I can try, I am going out for dinner with friends tonight but might be able to play afterward.
If I can, I will post the report of my turns around midnight european time (in 13 hours), if not, I will send a "can't do it" message around the same time.

Jabah

Since most (all) our cities will be coastal, going for the greatlighthouse after collosus (if still available) should be nice.

I probably would not adopt a state religion before we have more military to manage to deal with 'angry' neighbours. (and also have more cities with the religion of course).

Jabah

As for the shorter term plans, i think we have 2 good city sites: one near sheep/clams near Moscow and St Petersburg and another near pigs/fish in the west. I think we should settle them next now that we have our territory sealed.as far I I know we have not settled that seal in the north. We better agree as a team whether we want that city else we should bring that settler back for better use.

By the way halfway through there is a barb town already in the shadow, but with all the fog barb towns are expected.

I still think we should build it (the northern city), but 1 square west, it won't have any bonus, but:
- it will seal completely the north, preventing any pillager even in war time to come and disturb us.
- it save a forrest
- the corn could be used by my 'yellow' dot (see this post (http://http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3411697&postcount=31))

For defensive purpose, build wall and get 1 axe and/or 1 extra archer (they can go there on their hunting trip in barbarians land maybe with a worker to cut a few tree).

This city probably should have wall (defence), lighthouse (work sea+ turn the lake into a 3 food square) and then courthouse and should be able to pay for itself soon.

This city's aim is, imho, to set the border with Germany and let us settle the northern peninsula at our speed instead of rushing and that I think is worth the 'upkeep' cost.

If I am playing tonight, I still would like your opinions and will accept the majority's decision of course :D

Jabah

PS (edited) also bringing the settler back now appart from a wast of time could be risky with barbarians around

I am with you Jabah, that's why I sent the settler up there together with an archer escort and an archer ahead to clear fog.

But I didn't get exactly a positive feedback from Speaker about that.

The negative feedback was for not explaining what was going on and for what appeared to be a lack of a plan other than "settle the choke."

It WILL take ages to build a wall, lighthouse, and courthouse though. A city near the sheep and clams or near the copper would have been much more useful in my opinion, and would have given our workers something to do.

With that said...it's too late to turn back now I think. It will take us 20 turns at least to recall the settler. Better to bite the bullet and see what happens.

I'm in favor of founding the northern city. Make sure to cancel Open Borders with Germany, too, else it won't really serve its purpose. Walls, unit, lighthouse, courthouse, library -- probably in that order. And it will have those done about the time we fill in the peninsula. It'll take a while, but we can do it.

I like the Colossus move. Let's also shoot for Great Lighthouse. Which early resource helps with that wonder? I'm pretty sure it's Stone. I don't think we have either, but if there's stone around, we should prioritize connecting it.

In terms of happiness, Iron Working, ironically enough, gives us another happy (two in some cities). That's because the gems are buried in jungle, so we need IW to get to them. Forges make gems worth two happies, too, so we shouldn't neglect that tech for TOO long.

Still LOTS to do and few hammers, beakers, or people to it all with.

===========
On the religion issue, I've found shrines to be helpful for maintaining 100% science, yes. But, that ~100 gpt takes a lot of effort to set up, with building 5 essentially useless banks, spending a lot of hammers on Wall Street in your shrine city, spreading missionaries (and OB details). That same amount of effort can get you a military force to take a couple cities, increasing overall commerce, so that running 90% or even 80% science can put just as many beakers into the pot and still give left-over cash. Plus, the military route cuts down one foe's research ability. No guaranteed answers in this game. A religion is a nice thing to have -- two with two different holy cities just isn't twice as nice, IMO.

Arathorn

Turn 115 (0 AD)
Move settkers and archers to 'northern spot', promote one to double city guard
Archer promoted: City Garrison I
Archer promoted: City Garrison II
IBT
Nabu-rimanni (Great Scientist) born in St. Petersburg
Confucianism has spread: Hamburg (German Empire)

Turn 116 (25 AD)
What to do with scientist : free tech is Math which is not that expensive (380lb), right now Moscow is going 7lb/t so an Academy is worth an extra 3/4 lb, the super scientist is a much better deal with 6lb and 1 hammer. One day we should build a proper road between Moscow and St Peter so we don't have to cross the river and lose 1 turn...
Yekaterinburg founded
Yekaterinburg begins: Courthouse
Before
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/before_yeka.jpg
After
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/after_yeka.jpg
Yekateringburg (working lake) costs us only 2g/t (conting the units that are now inside our border), not so quite ugly..
IBT
Tech learned: Sailing

Turn 117 (50 AD)
Research begun: Masonry
Great lighthouse is just built somewhere IBT, yuck, change research (Masonry was 4-5t only)
Research begun: Iron Working
Bismark convert to Confuscianism, I cancel Open border with him anyway, but he could be our friend.
I am dubious about workshop on grassland when we have normal plain (which I will turn into workshop also.
Yekaterinburg begins: Lighthouse
St. Petersburg finishes: Granary
Novgorod grows: 5

Turn 118 (75 AD)
St. Petersburg begins: Confucian Temple
To get an extra happy people to either be specialist or work mined hill.

Turn 119 (100 AD)
Start lots of forrestry to speed the culture reconquest in the south (Library then Monastry)

Turn 120 (125 AD)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/surprise_axe_barb.jpg
Archer promoted: Guerilla I
A barbarian axeman is approching our northern line, I upgrade the archer holding the jungle hill.
Archer defeats (2.52/3): Barbarian Axeman
No problem.

Turn 121 (150 AD)
Archer promoted: Guerilla II
and is going to the next hill for better view.
Novgorod finishes: Courthouse
Yaroslavl' finishes: Library
Archer defeats (1.74/3): Barbarian Warrior
Hotter without the 25% fortify and the 20% hill bonus. he is now safely fortified on jungle hill again.


Turn 122 (175 AD)
Yaroslavl' begins: Lighthouse
Novgorod begins: Forge
Change my mind, we could do with a little bit more defence there.
Novgorod finishes: Barracks
Rostov finishes: Library

Turn 123 (200 AD)
Novgorod begins: Axeman
Rostov begins: Confucian Monastery
We need more cheap culture here (and +10% research with all this fur is not equal 0)
St. Petersburg finishes: Confucian Temple
Yaroslavl' grows: 2

Turn 124 (225 AD)
St. Petersburg begins: Forge
Moscow finishes: Forge
Rostov finishes: Confucian Monastery

Turn 125 (250 AD)
Moscow begins: The Colossus
Christianity founded far away

Workers south of Rostov should farm, we are gaining 1or2% on the egyptian city around, but we won't get the corn or fish until another 10/20t and we need to grow a bit. Worker west of stPeter is coming to cut the sugar-jungle by Moscow to gain another food to let moscow grow faster (or work harder).
St Peter is on max food for another turn (to grow to 6), after that either max hammer for forge or back on specialist


We should revolt to confuscianism at some point (with more cities with it) and to slavery (but probably with another civic change) but losing 2t now is not high priority

The tech tax went to a min of 30% for 1 or 2 turn before the first courthouse came online, now we are back between 50% and 60%. We might be able to build more cities soon.

Also, with proper MM (some of St Peter on research probably) it might be possible to get Iron working next turn, and start cutting jungle ASAP

Jabah


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR_250_glob_view.JPG



save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_AD-0250.zip)

edit fixe the 'save' link

More on the religion subject.

Right now, we 'only' have 3 cities with confucianism (Moscow, St Peters & Rostov) and no 'religious civic' to change to.
Converting will only turn 1 culture/t into 1 happy in these cities:
- Moscow, not usefull, we can grow 1 more anyway and have not enough food surplus to do it fast.
- St Peter, will be next turn at happy limit and can grow fast, so quite usefull
- Rostov, is far from happy limit, and not growing until it get the corn and fish back from Egypt (farming the grass south will help growing but not to happiness limit anyway, it will make only pop4 at max utility: farm+3xfur-forrested-camp).

Since Bismark is also 'Confuscian' while Hatshepsut is Hindu, converting will also make our relation more 'basic' (happy with one, tense with the other).

Until we got a 'religion' civic that is worth it, I would not convert. We also should actively try to spread confucianism to Novgorod, but I would let the other cities get it passively (until we get the Shrine, that is).

On the military subject

We should build (at least) 3 axes (1 almost done) to go :
- 1 in defence on each 'border city' (Novgorod and Yekatar..)
- 1 in/around Rostov to shadow the 3 egyptian warriors.

From the culture war values down there, the egyptian city is just facing us 3 squares on the west, and I think that could mean war if ever they think we are weak.
On a very positive point, last time I checked Egypt had no copper and no horse...
They also are having a settler coming north of Novgorod probably to get the corn by river.

Jabah

PS somehow, the previous link was not working (space in name?), so I rename and attach the saved game here again (good thing I had my usb key with it at work :D )

Roster:
Arathorn -- UP NOW (got it)
ThERat -- on deck
Obormot
Speaker
Jabah

Will try to play tonight.

Will build more military and keep workers working. I might even try to squeeze in another city, but that'll depend on the state of the nation. Courthouses and maybe even starting an FP. Lots to do.

Arathorn

Roster:
Arathorn -- UP NOW (got it)
ThERat -- on deck
Obormot
Speaker
Jabah

Arathorn

Hum, afair, Speaker and I swapped so it should be his turn ??

Jabah

actually it's Obormot who is up, everyone else including Speaker played their turns

Y'all are right, of course. Mea culpa.

Roster:
Arathorn -- on deck (don't got it)
ThERat
Obormot -- UP NOW
Speaker
Jabah

Arathorn

Obormot, where are you????

Arathorn

actually in another game Obormot indicated that he would only be available from saturday onwards. Suggest if there is no got it by tomorrow, then maybe skip him for a turn

Sorry, i wasn't able to play earlier because of RL. But i got it and will play in a couple of hours.

Turn 125 (250 AD)
User comment: Everything looks fine. I don't like that we are not building any settlers though :D Maybe its a bad civ3 habit, but i still think that we should fill at least the good spots ASAP. Even the junk northern city only costs us 1 gold (!) currently.
User comment: I think i'll build settlers from St. Petersburg after it hits the happiness limit, or maybe even earlier.
User comment: There are also 2 barb cities in the north. When we have several axemen we can go and capture them. But they are far from the palace and not in that great locations, so i would settle some more cities first.
St. Petersburg grows: 6
Judaism has spread: Yaroslavl'

Turn 126 (275 AD)
Tech learned: Iron Working
Yaroslavl''s borders expand
Yekaterinburg grows: 2

Turn 127 (300 AD)
Research begun: Mathematics
User comment: I go for math after IW because it leads to currency (trade routes) and calendar (2 luxes!). Not an easy choice: other good options are alphabet for trading, monotheism for organised religion and monarchy for MP, but i decide that calendar is more important now.
User comment: We have iron right near Moscow :)
User comment: Those creative egyptians plant a city north of Novgorod. They cannot steal any good tiles though.
Novgorod's borders expand
Novgorod finishes: Axeman

Turn 128 (325 AD)
Novgorod begins: Axeman
User comment: Our research drops to 50% after i moved a citizen in Rostov from the fur camp to a farm that i just built. It takes quite long for it to grow, but it is worth it since it'll be able to work 3 camps potentially even if we don't get our corn back. (which is not very likely imho). Actually one of the furs can be worked by another city that i plan to found near pigs and clams.

Turn 129 (350 AD)
Moscow's borders expand

Turn 130 (375 AD)
User comment: The iron mine is completed near Moscow and the time required for Colossus drops to 4 turns :)
Yaroslavl' grows: 3

Turn 131 (400 AD)
Novgorod finishes: Axeman
Yaroslavl' finishes: Lighthouse

Turn 132 (425 AD)
Novgorod begins: Axeman
Yaroslavl' begins: Barracks
User comment: Gems are now online. Our research goes back to 60% and our cities can grow. St. Petersburg can actually grow to size 8 because the forge is about to complete. It'll have awesome production then and can build a couple of settlers fast.
St. Petersburg grows: 7
Novgorod grows: 6

Turn 133 (450 AD)
User comment: Novgorod is at happiness limit even with gems and doesn't have any really good tiles around to make happiness buildings worth it. So i decide to hire another scientist there.
Moscow finishes: The Colossus

Turn 134 (475 AD)
Moscow begins: Obelisk
Moscow begins: Lighthouse
User comment: We got the colossus :) We don't have that many water tiles worked to get a great benefit now, but it did help our economy a little. I start lighthouse in Moscow because it doesn't have any more good land tiles to work.

Turn 135 (500 AD)

Pictures of our empire and some dotmapping:

The far north:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lotr18_500AD_Far_north.jpg

The north:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lotr18_500AD_North.jpg

The south:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lotr18_500AD_South.jpg

Big dots are cities that i would settle ASAP. Small blue dots are cities that i would settle at some point, but propably later. I wasn't carefull when i made the screenshot and it cannot be seen, but there are pigs near the yellow dot. I would go for the pink dot first. Apart from pigs and clams it can work one of the fur camps (while Rostov can work only 2 now and 3 in some distant future. It is likely that we won't be able to win the cultureal war for our corn :(), so it would surely pay for itself.

St. Petersburg is about to complete a forge and it'll get the extra happiness from gems. Then it'll grow to size 8. After that i would build settlers to settle the pink, red and yellow dots. Then i would build a stack of city raider swords and go for those barb cities in the north. Currently we only have 2 axemen and one is about to be built. Moscow can also build some military after the lighthouse. Another concern is great prophet generation. If we don't do anything about it the Moscow will produce a prophet at 75% propability and a merchant at 25%. We can build a temple and hire a priest to improve prophet chance.

The save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_AD-0500.Civ4SavedGame

Is that the Blue Marble mod? Preeety!

I believe that puts me up. I got it. Not sure if I'll get to it tonight or not. This one will require good play, and I'm not too sure I'm up to that right now.

Arathorn

I hate to sound like a smart a**, especially as there's not much you can do about it now, but you really should have settled Yekaterinburg (your northern choke city) one tile west. That would have been a far superior location, with sheep (and iron, which you couldn't see at the time) in its radius, while still blocking passage due to that mountain peak. Always remember to consider mountain peaks as well as coastlines when trying to seal borders.

I hate to sound like a smart a**, especially as there's not much you can do about it now, but you really should have settled Yekaterinburg (your northern choke city) one tile west. That would have been a far superior location, with sheep (and iron, which you couldn't see at the time) in its radius, while still blocking passage due to that mountain peak. Always remember to consider mountain peaks as well as coastlines when trying to seal borders.

While in peace this city would be better, in case of war with Germany our city prevent ABSOLUT passage from pillager, while in any other position, pillagers can try to sneak along the wall and reach our 'less protected' kingdom. Since this city is far away and will have to defend itself if needed, our backland will be free from pillage. (not sure that it will be needed anyway, but that was the idea).

Redarding the ressources, Iron, we had no idea (as you said) and sheep could be for a city further north (probably a german one unfortunatly)

Jabah

We now have 2 cities within 3 squares from egyptian ones, that will mean lots of tense borders.

For Rostov, we really should try to win the cultural war (Corn+Fish). during my turns we were winning 1 or2% per turn (still 70% afair) in the sea just next to the city. We had build a Library and a monastery (and temple?) and can/should build another monastry (2 religions there). As long as we are without state religion, we can you to 11 culture/turn at least "easily" (2religions (2) +library (2) +2 monastries(4)+2temples(2)+obeliks(1)). I doubt Egypt will/can go up to that.

On another subject, I will be away for the WE from Thursday evening to Sunday evening (I could play wednesday night or/and probably sunday night).

Jabah

I pressed enter and immediately had a decision. What to do after Math? Would it be Currency, or something less intelligent? I bit the bullet and went with Currency.

After St. Pete's forge, I slipped in a quick lighthouse. It won't slow the settler(s) much at all, but it will allow more commerce while they're being built. Also, Moscow got a granary for health and growth reasons. Novgorod started a forge after its axeman.

Our workers are hard at work NOT making cottages. We will need Civil Service to spread irrigation sooner rather than later, though (is that the right tech name?). We're running out of hills to mine.

Diplo-wise, we turned down OB from Germany. Not sure that was the best move. I do want that isle of land to the east, but an ally could be very handy. Oh well. Egypt is quietly losing the cultural wars. We're going to push back her borders even further in a couple of places. We already are gaining land at Rostov.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lotr18-rostov-borders.JPG

Moscow trained one sword, sent north, before starting a market when Currency came in. We're around 60-70% science right now, and I think we're due for a few more cities sooner rather than later. St. Pete is working on a settler due "real soon now".

I did have a tech decision to make, too. When Currency came in, I opted for Calendar and its two happy faces over Alphabet and trading possibilities. Hope that was the right choice.

I also was thin on military, so we might want a bit more. Egypt, in particular, will probably start feeling nervous soon and may attack.

We should also look into running more specialists, when we get some extra food that we don't absolutely need for growing into good squares.

Roster:
Arathorn
ThERat -- UP NOW
Obormot -- on deck
Speaker
Jabah

Arathorn

got it...which research path do we want to persue? alphabet for trading? or maybe optics to be able to meet more people?

Yay for pwning Heliopolis. :smoke: for the city placement by Egypt (misses both corn and fish by 1 tile).

Optics, if we could sneak out a couple boats to send east, would be a great idea.

I'd probably go for Alphabet next, but that's a weak recommendation. Depends on the circumstances at the time. I just thought the two happies from Calendar were too good to pass up.

Arathorn

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_AD-0900.Civ4SavedGame)

Pre-Turn
yellow pink and red not settled yet, so there is still much to do for our settler pump
want to go for at least yellow and pink
6 turns to calendar, we will also get a Great Person in 2 turns
swap Moskow to monastery in 8 turns while trying to grow fast
Yaroslav is on a court when we can save 1cpt with that
swap to forge
increase science to 70% at the moment and calendar drops by 1 turn

1. 720AD
St. Peter finishes a settler and goes for another
settler starts to head for pink dot
discover that the worker at Moskow has built a cottage on a hill, against all rules
this tile won't be worked and be replaced by mine asap

2. 740AD
as expected a Great Prophet is born
science is down to 60% again

3. 760AD
Moskow has now grown to pop 6
St. Peter gets the Kong Miao and the income goes up by 5gpt at the moment

4. 780AD
Yakutsk is founded on pink dot dropping our income

IT calendar is in and we can see that we are in the eastern parts of the world
alphabet next in 5

5. 800AD
nothing much happening, send a support worker to connect sugar
pigs are connected for another health point :)

6. 820AD
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lotr18820.jpg
Hinduism spreads to Yakutsk, this way we get a border expansion

7. 840AD
St. Peter finishes another settler for yellow dot
Novogorod finishes forge and goes for axe, we need a little more military as deterrent for the moment

8. 860AD
another worker goes up to connect incense
and sugar is online for added happiness

IT Egypt would like open borders, of course we know that but decline

9. 880AD
found Vladivostok at yellow dot and income is now even at 60% science

IT alphabet is in, go for civil service to be able to spread irrigation

10. 900AD
Bismarck completes Parthenon

all cities are more or less set on growth since we gain happiness and will still gain due to incense
I would let them grow before going for specialists etc.
Novogorod will produce a Great Scientist in 3turns
we can also still build some missionaries to spread the faith for more money

and as for trading there are plenty of opportunities, and both are willing to trade :dance:
in the good 'ol SG tradition, I leave it to Obormot to trade
we can get all techs they have at the moment

trading possibilities with Egypt
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lotr18900c.jpg

and with Germany
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lotr18900d.jpg

the central north-east
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lotr18900a.jpg

the west, note that we are winning the culture war
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lotr18900b.jpg

Good news on winning the culture war. Glad to see some cities founded again. We seemed ready for a few more.

On the courthouse in Yaroslav, it was one commerce per turn now, but as the city grows, the cost will grow. I'm fine delaying it, but we should build it. FP building is also dependent on # of courthouses built, so it has SOME purpose. I'm fine delaying it, though.

A cottage? Really? Shame on me/it. I am 98% certain I didn't automate a worker. It's not a mine? "M" and "T" aren't even close on the keyboard. I'm very confused.

Good skill with the trading, Obormot! Don't try to do it all in one round. if you trade for tech A and they have tech B but tech A is a requirement for tech B, you won't see B until a turn has passed. So don't rush into it. We want to get all their depth of techs, too, if we can. I would hang on to Alphabet until the last round of trading, too, so they don't end up trading with each other and leaving us out of the loop.

With the shrine in hand, we might want to prioritize a few missionaries, too. Maybe Moscow can do that after its market completes? We might want to declare a state religion, too, after we're done trading. Will tick off our neighbors, but that might be just fine.

Roster:
Arathorn
ThERat
Obormot -- UP NOW
Speaker -- on deck
Jabah

Arathorn

Sorry for the delay. RL again :(
Anyway i got it and will play shortly.

I screwed up my autologger, so i don't have a detailed log :( I'll try to write as much as possible from memory.

First of all i did the trades. Bismark lacked 2 techs that Hatty knew, so i first sold those techs to Bismark and then i sold another tech to both of them. That was enough to get all their techs and gold :) I decided to use the gold to fuel 100% research. I researched at 100% rate all the way during my turns. Now the gold is almost used up. We can sell some other techs to the AI though. It took 8 turns to discover Civil Service and i chose Machinery next because it leads to Optics and i feel that it is time now to get some overseas contacts. Bismark demanded Currency and i gave in. We still have several monopoly techs, but the AI have some too. Bismark knows Construction, Hatty knows Literature and Monotheism. Both won't trade of course because of the monopoly.

I was mostly building infrastructure, with markets and calendar luxes connected our cities can now grow a bit. I also traded with Bismark, he gave us silk for our furs. Moscow can now grow to size 13. After completing Moscow's market i MMed it for growth taking citizens off all mines and putting them to work sea tiles. It also became a commerce powerhouse :) A great scientist was born in Novgorod. Now we have several cities where an academy would give more beakers then a super scientist, so i went for the academy. Also it would surely give more beakers then discovering a tech since we still have a long way to go. Moscow was producing the most beakers (even more then the fur city) because of the palace (+8) and the superspecialist (+6), so i built it in Moscow. It is now producing 62 beakers :)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_AD-1050_2.jpg

St. Petersburg started a settler after the market which is due in s turns. I want to settle the site south of Moscow with clams and sheep. Meanwhile the workers have already built a pasture on the sheep.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_AD-1050_1.jpg

That would be the last good city we can settle, after that we'll have only the fishing villages left (but fishing villages can provide a lot of commerce!). Also northern jungle can be good for settling, but we'll need a lot of workers to clear them.

We have too few military now to capture the barb towns, Moscow is building swords slowly because of my MM towards growth. I think it is worth it, because this way we'll get production AND commerce sooner. We can build swords fairly quickly out of St. Petersburg after the settler. Some missionaries would be good too though.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_AD-1050.Civ4SavedGame

Without looking at the save (and especially looking at our finances), there are still (at least) 3 nice cities (several bonus) that we should settle/capture in the north (one with fish+corn+horse) pretty soon.

Maybe we could also consider having our state religion soon as well (don't know how many cities are without it).

Also, I am away until sunday night so don't forget to auto-skip me (and I also have to finish and write about a LouisXIV's game that I thought I would have finished yesterday, but some AI refused to see it that way :rolleyes: and I am now forced to play a few more turns...)

Jabah

attached an (very) old and incomplete dotmap

Roster:
Arathorn -- on deck
ThERat
Obormot
Speaker -- UP NOW
Jabah -- skip through 12/18

I think not stopping expansion will be important in this game. We have a reasonably solid base, but the time has probably come to fill in the eastern land spur with our cities. If that means razing/capturing barb cities, so be it. Axe/sword teams should be well up to the task. Don't be afraid to raze if the cities are poorly positioned, but capturing saves us 100 hammers/food, which is not insignficant. I say we're ready because our core cities are now large enough to support some weaker cities. I'd add 4-5 cities relatively soon to fill out "our" core lands.

We should also go ahead and set our state religion, as well as spreading it aggressively. I don't see a good reason not to, at this point. Extra happy, similar culture, bonus with Organized Religion (or Theocracy), etc. It's almost assuredly worth both the one turn of anarchy and the negative relations with our neighbors.

Arathorn

I think Egypt is going to settle on our side having sent over an archer/settler pair. All the more we shoudl settle our part of the Island.

The Kong Miao is already making 8gpt sicne our religion has spread to Germany nicely. We can easily make more gpt once we spread the religion to all our towns.
By the way we should speed up some farms for faster growth.

Got it. I am up in two games, so it might take a day.

I will play this for sure tomorrow. I didn't um totally forget about it today. Nah. :mischief:

1050 (IT): Rostov is missing the one piece that should have been built straightaway: a granary. It will add more food more quickly than a lighthouse, so I swap over. Same goes for Yakutsk.

Egyptians found El-Amarna on "our" part of the sub-continent. It's a :smoke: spot--impossible to defend and reinforce. It will be ours someday.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_El-Amarna.jpg

1060AD (1): Bump science down to 80% to a sustainable level.

IT- Bismarck adopts Serfdom and Vassalage. Look out Hatty!

1070AD (2): Spreading some irrigation now that we have Civil Service.

1080AD (3): Settler is trained in St. Petersburg. We are last in 'Soldiers' in the Demographics. Not good. I'm going to sneak one worker out of St. Petersburg because we desperately need them as well, but we should crank out 10 or so top-level troops.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_Soldiers.jpg

Machinery also comes in and I work on Literature (due in 3). The Great Library would be a nice wonder if we could manage it (21 bpt with representation in Moscow)

1090AD (4): Workers doing their thang.

1100AD (5): Literature is complete. Take a 1 turn detour to pick up Monotheism (to help with TGL). Found Smolensk between the sheep and clams and start a work-boat.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_Smolensk.jpg

Apparently, Moscow cannot build TGL. Why not? Is there some requirement I'm missing? Needs a Library. Check. Oh. Japan has already completed it. :smoke: on my part.

I cancel the 1-turn detour for Monotheism and swap to Compass en route to Optics. Harbors will help our income as well.

1110AD (6): Change my mind on Smolensk and change to a granary. It will be quicker to build the workboat in Moscow.

Bismarck has wheat available for trade, so I swap him an extra fish resource. Hatty gets NOTHING!
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_Wheat.jpg

Moscow Maceman => Missionary (for Smolensk).
St. Petersburg Worker => Maceman.

1120AD (7): Novgorod Maceman => Granary. We have half-price granaries. All our cities should have them.

Confusianism spreads on its own to Smolensk. :goodjob: The missionary from Moscow can just head a little further west. We have a few cities over there who need Confusianism still.

And I just realized that we're missing out on some benefits here. I swap over to Confusianism as our state religion...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_Religion.jpg

1130AD (8): ...I make this trade with Bismarck.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_Feudalism.jpg

And swap to these Civics. I also consider Hereditary Rule, but we still have plenty of room for growth due to our large number of happiness resources.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_Civics_Swap.jpg

1140AD (9): Bismarck asks for Civil Service as a "gift." Uh no thanks.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_Civil_Demand.jpg

*Moscow should build a workboat after its missionary, to be used once borders expand in Smolensk.
*Yakutsk should get the missionary from Moscow, and will need to prioritize some culture to keep its pigs.
*We should send some troops to our southwest. Hatty is usually pretty docile, but she might get frisky.
*Serfdom will help, but we'll need a lot more workers to take on the jungle. We should also have 1 worker per city at this point.
*Vladivastok will be a powerhouse city, and should be brought up to speed ASAP.

LotR18 - 1150AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_AD-1150.zip)

Roster:
Arathorn -- UP NOW
ThERat -- on deck
Obormot
Speaker
Jabah -- skip through 12/18

See it. Will hopefully play tonight.

Builds will probably emphasize military.

Arathorn

I've come to the conclusion that it's time to expand. We can expand in many different ways. I think the best of the options is to both capture some barb cities and to form some of our own. Other than that, well, I don't feel like attacking Egypt just yet. That's on the "TO DO" list, though, at some point, in my book.

I start the troops moving northward almost immediately. I do a cursory review of our cities, more to familiarize myself with them than in any expectation of changing anything. All looks good, of course.

After Compass comes in, I go for Optics. Sailing the seas is pretty high on my list. Discovering new friends/enemies and getting the Magellan around-the-world bonus are both quite nice ideas. And, in 1160, I suffer my only casualty of the round. A wounded warrior of ours can't survive a barb archer attack. :( Oh well.

I kill three archers in 1180. One on offense with a sword, and two on defense (one axe, one mace). Healing is required afterwards, though (except for the mace).

I make a big trade in 1200. Civil Service to Bismarck for Monotheism, Construction, and 20 gold. That put us back to ahead of them and Egypt, at least a little bit. Also, when Optics comes in, I go for Paper. Trading maps can help get the Magellan bonus faster, on occasion. I also want to get to Education soonish, I think. And Moscow starts a caravel for exploration.

Two cities were gained in 1210. A mace and sword both pretty easily defeat the warrior defenders of Ghuzz and that barb city is now ours. I think we can make our dot map work with this spot, so I keep it. I also found Orenburg (or was that 1220?) down south to work the spices and copper and such. It should grow into a fine city.

The rest of the turns were less interesting. Burgundian in the north had three archers defending it. But one came out to off our scout (no loss, IMO, as that scout was essentially useless, but he did get the 3 archers info). That archer then died to our mace. Two archers left. Only two units on hand, so I'd probably wait for a third and/or fourth before going after the city. It does have another worker we can snag.

Ghuzz came out of rebellion and tried to work a cottage tile! AARGGH! That must be pillaged very soon. I think I left an archer on auto-move to defend Ghuzz, too.

I think we should build a few more settlers and fill in the eastern land spur. It shouldn't be too difficult. And with Confucianism spreading and courthouses, the costs won't be too astronomical.

Moscow built a second caravel, too. Both are headed mainly east, but one can go northeast and one southeast to be more certain of quick circumnavigation. Building a third and sending it west wouldn't be a bad idea either, in all likelihood.

I kept our cities on pretty high growth. A couple are nearing their happiness threshhold again, though, so the next couple players will probably need to switch them off to specialists relatively soon. We don't want to grow unhappy.

Here's the eastern spur I want to fill -- and my progress on it.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lotr18-eastern-spur.JPG

Good luck and have fun!

Roster:
Arathorn
ThERat -- UP NOW
Obormot -- on deck
Speaker
Jabah -- skip through 12/18

Arathorn

Looks good Arathorn. Did you build the road between Ghuzz and Burgundian or did the "Barbarians" build it?

I agree that we should expand through the eastern spur ASAP. We can roughly double our size, and ultimately will be much bigger than either Egypt or Germany. Another idea we might think about soonish is engineering a war between Germany and Egypt that we stay out of. Let them wear each other down and then we can :hammer: both of them.

The barbs built that road. I've just started using it! :) The cool thing is each city also came with a worker.

Bismarck was considering declaring on Hatty, but we didn't have anything to give him to start it, the last time I checked. But, yeah, getting those two to fight and then joining Bismarck will be a great start. We'll get good relations with Germany, and gain some extra land. After the eastern spur is filled, which should take ~20 turns, I think.

Arathorn

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_AD-1350.Civ4SavedGame)

Pre-Turn
settling the north is priority #1 now, I can see 2 spots we want immediately while keeping the barb town as well
set St. Peter on growth in 2 so the settler will be even faster soon
Novogorod works a 2f tile when we can work 2f+1s, change that

1. 1260AD
St. Peter finishes the monastery and goes for court for 1 turn
with 2 courts done our income is much improved
caravels sail, one eastwards, one north

IT one archer attacks our sword in the north but doesn't even scratch him
we get paper, difficult decision but go for engineering for faster movement

2. 1270AD
sword defeats another archer flawlessly, one one archer left there for now

our sailors in the east meet Victoria, she doesn't have her own religion but is Bhuddist, we might be able to convert her
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lotr181270.jpg


since she has no techs for us and we are up even alphabet
a world map can help us a lot here, so trade her alphabet and get 30gold and her WM
this reveals the world almost entirely, there is only a short span we have to travel, but none of our caravels is near
it also shows 3 more nations
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lotr181270b.jpg

we get a +4 relations modifier with her :)

3. 1280AD
Bismarck actually has engineering but refuses to trade that
sell him incense for 6gpt

in the north
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lotr181280a.jpg
keep the city since it has 3 resources in it's workable radius


4. 1290AD
uneventful turn

5. 1300AD
start some roading to the north and jungle clearing

6. 1310AD
Moscow finishes a settler
Burgundian is online now but we need to avoid to work the cottage it has there

7. 1320AD
St. Peter finishes anotehr settler, goes back on court
Moscow is now churning out some missionaries
Vladivostok grows to fast, it can be a real specialist farm, match growth and forge so we can employ a specialist

8. 1330AD
2 settler and 2 missionaries on the way north
we get another Great Prophet, he could get us Theology
Victoria has guilds but refuses to trade them to us
Bisrmack would give us theology for paper, maybe not the best trade, but we also get his WM, might be enough
to get us Magellan, a bit of a gamble, but go for it

well, there are maybe 5 tiles left whcih are not uncovered too bad
now the specialist would give us devine right, almost that is
but that tech is known already, so keep him for us to decide

I think we need caste system and hereditary rule, but I hold off the revolt until the next player

IT engineering is in, education next

9. 1340AD
take out infantry in Marseilles for exchange of an artillery
we meet Asoka, he is down 3 techs, but has divine rights as monopoly, of course won't trade that

10. 1350AD
set Moscow now on national epic, we can use all those Great People
spear our faith to Ghuzz, this improves our somewhat bleak finances

2 settlers are almost in place in the north, we can settle maybe another spot later on

tech situation
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lotr181350a.jpg

the north with 2 settler and 1 missionary
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lotr181350b.jpg

Alert: that northern red dot should go 1 tile west so we can work the corn as well!!!

Future:

I have started on some military, we should think of taking on Egypt in the near future, but in terms of military rating we are still #6 only
I also could not get Bismarck to fight them, maybe with another tech or whatever

I really recommend to swap those civics, there are cities on their happy limit that cannot work more shields, so more specialists would be nice

Remember that we do have one Great Prophet and can use it now or wait for a GA

The caravels are still traveling and I guess our eatern caravel can soon close the gap and give us additional movement

Got it. I think we need to revolt to representation eventually, but i don't remember where exactly it is on the tech tree. If it is far, then certainly i would revolt to hereditary rule & caste system now, otherwise i'll wait for representation.

Looks good TheRat. I think we should rethink the National Epic in Moscow, however. Vladivostok is our biggest food producer, and will be able to support the most specialists, so the 100% GPP boost makes the most sense there. And with the Super-Scientist and Academy, we will almost certainly want Oxford University in Moscow and probably Iron Works as well, since it will be (at the least one of) our top shield producers.

Iron Works is really dependent on where Iron and Coal are. Just "best producer" doesn't always make sense. IW alone can make a semi-OK city the best producer.

I agree, though, that Vlad is the better target for National Epic. Heroic Epic in Moscow would be fine, though, as it will probably continue to be our best military producer.

I think Oxford might end up being best over in our furs city. But we have a long time before that's an issue.

Representation comes with Constitution, which always seems to me to be later than it should be. That's probably my research style. I still think revolting to HR and then to Rep will be the wise way to go. Caste System is probably worth the revolt, and it won't add another turn to do both.

Arathorn

Actually I just switched Moscow to the wonder, we lose nothing by changing to military or so.
I agree that we should maybe build it in Vladivostok. By the way, I started building some watermills to increase shields. Later on, we can always go back to farms to maximise specialists. but for now, we have too much food and not enough shields.
That's why I suggested to revolt, so we can actually use that food surplus for specialists.

Roster:
Arathorn
ThERat
Obormot -- UP NOW
Speaker -- on deck
Jabah -- back, I think/hope

Arathorn

Roster:
Arathorn
ThERat
Obormot -- UP NOW
Speaker -- on deck
Jabah -- back, I think/hope

Arathorn

Yes, back and reading :goodjob:

Jabah

Turn 195 (1350 AD)
Confucianism has spread: Dusseldorf (German Empire)
User comment: I revolt as was discussed to Caste System/Heriditary Rule

Turn 196 (1360 AD)
Moscow begins: Maceman
Confucianism has spread: Yaroslavl'
Krasnoyarsk founded
Krasnoyarsk begins: Library
Vladivostok begins: Library
User comment: Vladivostok is potentially our best specialist city with floodplains, pigs and lots of grassland to be irrigated, so i think it should build the National Epic. I start a library there (prerequisite). Moscow is going to build macemen untill it growth to max size, later i think we should build some workers.
User comment: I MM some cities for faster growth if good tiles are available.
Moscow grows: 13
Rostov grows: 11
Ghuzz finishes: Granary

Turn 197 (1370 AD)
Ghuzz begins: Lighthouse
Khabarovsk founded
Khabarovsk begins: Granary
St. Petersburg grows: 12
Novgorod finishes: Catapult
Vladivostok grows: 11

Turn 198 (1380 AD)
Novgorod begins: Catapult
Confucianism has spread: Khabarovsk
Moscow finishes: Maceman
Rostov's borders expand
Smolensk finishes: Library

Turn 199 (1390 AD)
Moscow begins: Maceman
Smolensk begins: Lighthouse
St. Petersburg grows: 13
St. Petersburg finishes: Courthouse
Novgorod grows: 9
Ghuzz grows: 3

Turn 200 (1400 AD)
St. Petersburg begins: Maceman
Moscow grows: 14
Novgorod finishes: Catapult
Vladivostok grows: 12
Vladivostok finishes: Library
Smolensk grows: 7
Judaism has spread: Krasnoyarsk

Turn 201 (1410 AD)
Novgorod begins: Maceman
Vladivostok begins: National Epic
Yaroslavl' grows: 11
Yekaterinburg finishes: Worker
Orenburg finishes: Lighthouse
Confucianism has spread: Essen (German Empire)

Turn 202 (1420 AD)
Yekaterinburg begins: Library
Orenburg begins: Library
Caravel defeats (2.52/3): Barbarian Galley
Moscow finishes: Maceman
Ghuzz grows: 4

Turn 203 (1430 AD)
Moscow begins: Maceman
Contact made: Japanese Empire
Moscow grows: 15
St. Petersburg grows: 14
St. Petersburg finishes: Maceman
Orenburg grows: 2
Hinduism has spread: Burgundian

Turn 204 (1440 AD)
St. Petersburg begins: Confucian Missionary
Moscow begins: Worker
User comment: Moscow grew to its current max size (15) and i decide to build some workers there. We are currently terribly short of workers.

Turn 205 (1450 AD)

Quiet turns, mostly building infrastructure, i didn't have much to add to what the autologger wrote ;) But here are some pictures to make things a bit more exciting.

Our future leader factory. Already it supports 4 specialists, but currently it is MMed for shields rather then food to build the wonder sooner. After that it would be able to support much more of them :) We should also build a market and a temple for happiness or garrizone it with cheap units.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lotr18_1450AD_vladivostok.jpg

Our northern towns. We really lack workers to make them productive.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lotr18_1450AD_north.jpg

The borer with Egypt. I've built some troops, but this is not enough imho to start a war.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lotr18_1450AD_west.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_AD-1450.Civ4SavedGame

so, did we succeed in getting Magellan, it isn't really clear from there

I've got it. Won't play until tomorrow though, so any comments until then will be read.

2 things I want us to discuss:

FP: once we have another city with a court (even our capital would profit from a court), we can build it. But where? I think Novogorod would be a good location, since we plan to expand in that direction anyway.

war against Egypt:
If we are serious, we should take some real effort and build up some military and then take a few towns...maces + cats for a start

FP in Novgorod definitely.

War against Egypt? I think so, fairly definitely. Although if we're "only" running 50% science, we may need 20 turns of growth/infra build up first.

My goals for the first Egyptian war would be Giza and El-Armana. Just two cities. We can get other cities in later wars, methinks. With that goal, we may be ready to strike by Jabah's turns, depending on what Speaker does. The war against the jungle in the east might be more pressing.

Techwise, are we trading? We're going to need to stay on top of that if we're going to have a chance with a low gold income. I'd watch F4 rather carefully. Also, how close are we to beelining Biology? Extra food from farms could be HUGE for us! More food = more specialists = good. Constitution is the other potential beeline target.

We should also really discuss city specialization. Not every city of ours will need a university, for example. Speaker, you want to give a first pass on what city could/should excel at what? (e.g. our shrine city should excel at cash, getting market, grocer, bank, and merchants -- while other cities get scientists and universities and others get engineers and focus on hammers)

Arathorn

Arathorn

Limited war with Egypt, why not.
I would raze and rebuild El-Armarna 1 square NW (on the sea, closer to bonus that might not be within our border otherwise).
Giza could be kept, I can't see properly the surroundings...
We can/should also found a city on the inside sea 4squares East of Giza, on the northern side of the river.

But I am not sure our finances can deal with 3 more cities at the moment...

Jabah

Playing now.

1450AD (IT)- I took a shot at examining every city for how they should be managed. I don't want to steal all the fun for myself, so I'll let someone else make a list of the types of buildings each city should get.

Moscow - Medium Commerce, Medium production, High Food. Merchants/Scientists or Priests/Engineers.
St. Petersburg - High Commerce, High Production. Low food. No specialists.
Vladivostok - Low Commerce. Low production. High Food. Merchants/Scientists
Rostov - High Commerce. High food. Low production. Scientists/Merchants.
Yaroslavl - High Commerce. Low food. High Production. No specialists.
Yakutsk - High Commerce. High Food. Low production. Scientists/Merchants.
Novgorod - Low Commerce. High food. Medium production. Engineers/Priests.
Smolensk - High Commerce. High Food. High Production. Any specialists
Yekaterinburg - Low everything. Waste of a city.
Ghuzz - High Commerce. High Food. Low Production. Scientists/Merchants.
Orenburg - High Commerce. Very low food. Low production. Scientists/Merchants or Engineers/Priests.
Burgundian - High Commerce. High food. Medium production. Engineers/Priests.
Krasnoyarsk - High Commerce. High food. Low production. Engineers/Priests.
Khabrovsk - High Commerce. High food. Low production. Scientists/Merchants.

I fix our commerce issues in the interim by replacing most of our scientists with merchants. This allows me to raise our science rate to a sustainable 60% (-3gpt), rather than 50% (-13gpt) as inherited.

A better long term fix will be to build Courthouses in our outliers (help with Priests/Engineers where possible) and Build our FP. We'll need one more courthouse for the FP, so I'll sneak that in during my turn, in Moscow.

We're not quite ready for war, I don't think. We need more than 2 Catapults, for sure. 5-10 would be better. Also, Knights supported by Macemen would work a lot better than Macemen supported by Axemen/Swordsmen. We'll also need to better protect our southwestern cities, as it is almost assured that Egypt will send some ships across the bay.

1460AD (1): I make this trade with Victoria.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_Victoria_Guilds.jpg

1470AD (2): Education is completed. Start work on Philosophy. Angor Wat will be critical for us. Toss a couple Universities, markets, and grocers into the queues.

1480AD (3): Spread Confusianism in Krasnoyarsk.

1490AD (4): Hatty asks to trade World Maps. Since we are a few turns away from the Magellan bonus (or so I thought :(), I decline.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_Hatty_Map.jpg

1500AD (5): Shuffle a warrior to Smolensk to allow it to keep growing. Our defenses are pretty thin, with warriors defending our major cities.

1505AD (6): Otto asks for Open Borders, and since our northeastern peninsula is all filled, I accept.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_Otto_Border.jpg

Spread Confusianism to Yekaterinberg. We have just 1 city (Burgundian) lacking Confusianism, so I pop one more Missionary to the top of St. Petersburg's queue, and that will be that. With a few courthouses and lighthouses finishing, I am able to get science to a sustainable 70% (-4gpt) and shave a turn off Philosophy.

1510AD (7): Philosophy is finished. I start work on Liberalism. The only other tribe who is capable of researching it is Tokugawa. I suspect we'll beat him. Especially since Leibniz is born in Rostov
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_Leibniz.jpg

And combined with St. Peter in Moscow, we are Captain Planet! I mean, I will start a Golden Age next turn. I revolt to Organized Religion, since we will be making full use of the GA for infra building.

1515AD (8): Liberalism is due in 6 turns (in case anyone is concerned that I wasted 1 turn of the GA in anarchy, don't be. I actually started the GA this turn).

1520AD (9): Our last Missionary is on automove toward Burgundian.

1525AD (10): We "meet" our final rival, Persia. 1525AD and we are just meeting someone. Weird!
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_Cyrus.jpg

This trade is possible, although I do not pull the trigger. Up to the next player to decide if they want to.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_Cyrus_Trade.jpg

OK, I think we were beaten to the Magellan bonus. We have definitely circumnavigated the whole world at this point, but the message was never triggered. Someone must have beaten us to it.

I've micromanaged most of our cities to maximize production in the GA.

Here are two screenshots of our empire.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_1525a.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_-_1525b.jpg

GA Baby! And I don't mean Graduate Assistant! (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR18_AD-1525.zip)

I fix our commerce issues in the interim by replacing most of our scientists with merchants. This allows me to raise our science rate to a sustainable 60% (-3gpt), rather than 50% (-13gpt) as inherited.

Yeah, taxmen are more profitable then scientists for us because we have more libs then markets. But there is an issue with great people: imho scientists are of more use then taxmen. I am not really sure what is better in our situation.


OK, I think we were beaten to the Magellan bonus. We have definitely circumnavigated the whole world at thi