these are some notes, tips and observations
this is from my experience with emperor difficulty (huge maps epic speed blablabla)


note:

[NEW]you check the diplomatic relations between ais by going to the foreign screen and selecting one ai, then look at the standing below the picture of other ais, for a more detailed explanation mouse over the other ais picture to see their reasoning, why they are or not happy with the ai you have selected. relations inbetween ais are sometimes already pleased before any modifiers are aplied, i dont know why.
The Ai will almost always vote for your diplo win if you have a total positive standing of 11 or more, unless it is your competitor or has a higher standing with your competitor.
Your competitor in the UN (largest or 2nd largest) civ will never vote for anyone but itself, for this reason it makes no sense to try and get this civs vote. (unless it is soon going to be replaced by someone else)
Ais dont mind to vote for other ais as long as their not negative (annoyed), sometimes theyll abstain though, this (from my observations) happens when i got a higher standing with voters then voters do with my competitor.
[rephrased]If you trade with a civ with with which a 3rd party civ is annoyed (or worse) that 3rd civ will give you a -2 to -4 <YOU TRADED WITH OUER ENMY!!!!!!1111> 'bonus', this is quite frustrating as sometimes ais give you a deal but you dont know if you will upset anyone so you gotta turn it down. either that or you didnt know and just accept it and ruin your chances with a civ for the rest of the game.¨
Because you are trying it the carebear way, you will need to find a few civs to trade with, which wont give you a -4: you trade with enemy bonus with other civs, these civs dont have an annoyed/furious standing from any other civs except your competitor or tiny civs (without much population).
Declaring a war on another civ because the ai asks you to is no different then declaring the war by yourself, except if you turn it down you get a permanent -1 penalty with the demanding civ and accepting it will also cause the target civ to give the demanding a -1 for bringing you in as a war ally.
the ai appears to ignore defensive pacts when asked to declare war, this can be used to cause a civilization to kill itself by letting it attack a 3+ man defensive pact. be carefull with whom your going to get the -1 penalty for "bringing in a war ally" though.
ais are very unlikely to let you compell them into declaring war on a 3rd party with which they have a better standing then they do with you.
if an ai is about to complete a spaceship, have it declare war. often times this will cause it to stop the construction of its spaceship.
the tech for the united nations have very few prereqs, you can build it just after researching astronomy -> scientific method -> psysics -> electricity -> radio -> mass media. (altough 1500 hammers take a while without power plants and/or the ironworks). the UN (great wonder) can be rushed.
any civics that are passed on the UN will be aplied to all civilizations regardless of wether they have the tech.
resolutions can be revoted, this can result in civics/nukes being unlocked again.
competitors dont realise you wanna win, get them to war with civilizations which are everbodys friend so your competitor gets negative standing.
eliminating a civ by letting others kill it isnt always good, you will want the +4 from mutual military struggle though.
remember that there is always a large competitor (on huge games), these will get a larger percentage of the world population if the rest of the world population sinks.
the snowball affect still aplys, once a civ is going down it will fall harder aand harder and everyone will try to get a slice, this will often allow you to get +1-4 from mutual struggle with almost everyone.
if you are certain that a civ will not vote for you it may be wise to get an ally (or yourself) to eliminate this civ so that that civ's population will vote for you


positive standing bonuses include

You have been at peace for so long! if you have been at peace since a long time you will get a +1 bonus, i have once seen this go to +2.
You gave us tribute/Help! when the ai asks you to give it something you either refuse or agree to give, if the latter, the ai gets what it asked and gives you a +1 diplomacy bonus. this bonus stacks each time you accept
Ouer trade relations are fair (:) no their not). when you give the ai 500 gold in the ancient era it will give you +4 for fair trading relations, be warned, other civs that are angry with this civ will probably hate you now (this penalty seems to fade over much time, but not completely) sometimes the ai will give you +1-3 if you havent gifted them enough stuff (voluntarily) yet. you also appear to get this bonus if you trade resources for resources.
Ouer open borders bring us closer together! this bonus usually aplys when you have signed open borders and have had the treaty active for quite a while, at the start it gives +1. later +2 and perhaps later even +3.
Ouer defensive pact makes us feel good about us! signing a defensive pact with a civilization will give you +1 bonus at the start, up to +4 later. defensive pacts can be signed if you or the target civilization has researched military tradition (and if you are pleased or better, this varys with civs, ecpecially tokugawa).
signing a defensive pact usually pisses off ALL other civilizations untill you also sign a pact with them. the negative bonus STACKS, so if you sign 2 defensive pacts you get -2 with outsider civs.
[Rephrased 25 dec '05]You have wisely chosen your civics. i have seen this bonus go to +6 inbetween ai civs and between myself and roosevelt (after i voted all 5 UN civics passed). this bonus appears to be random to me. however there is a set of rules, if you and a target civ have 2 different civics you will not get a diplomacy bonus for it. the 5 starting civics also dont give a bonus. slavery doesnt appear to either. however if you choose a leaders favorite civic if that leader already has his favorite civic active (read it up in civilopedia -> leaders) and you have more civics active that this civ also has it will usually grant you a diplomacy bonus. i have seen it go to +6.
We care for brothers and sisters in the faith! with ordinary civilizations, this bonus goes to a +4 max, with some others (often spiritual, like isabella/saladin) this goes to +7 (i have seen this between ais). the longer a target civ and yourself have been of the same religion (after you have met) the higher the bonus, at the start it is +1. when either one changes religion the bonus is lost and must be rebuild up from the point where you both convert the same religion again (altough the bonus appears to rebuild fast). i must warn you that a civilization that founds a new superstition will often change to this new faith, if it doesnt have all of its other citys under its state religion.
You have accepted ouer favorite civic/state religion! each time an ai asks you to change civics/convert to another religion and you accept you get a +1 bonus to that ai. you can change back without penalty (unless you also get a bonus from having his favorite civic in which case you loose this specific bonus). this is a litle annoying to me because i cant change several civics at once to compensate for the change of another.
We apreciate your suply of resources (They really do), when you gift a stream of resources to the ai it will give you a positive standing bonus after some time, +1 to begin with and (i suspect) +2 to 4 later depending on the size and timespan of the stream (or rather, waterfall). i believe this also triggers the negative bonus of you have TRADED WITH ENMY penalty with 3rd party civs, im not sure.
You have shared your technology with us, when you gift techs to the ai often it will not only develop a menacing tech lead (on emperor) but also give you a whoppy +1-4 to its relations with you. i believe this also triggers the negative bonus of you have TRADED WITH ENMY penalty with 3rd party civs, im not sure.


negative standing penaltys include

You are at war with us. i hope this once's obvious, if you are at war with a civ you will get up to -8 (from -3) to your standing with it, this will disappear immediactly when you declare peace.
You have declared war upon us! this is the kind of penalty you only want civs to have with you, if they are going to be terminated or have a permanent positive bonus to compensate.
Each time you declare war on an ai you get a permanent -3 (it stacks) with that civilization.
this negative penalty is quite usefull if you want 2 world powers to attack eachother constantly, let one declare war -3, make peace, war -3, peace, war -3(total of -9)
You have negotiated a trade embargo against us. each time you get a 3rd party to stop trading with the target ai you get a permanent -1, it stacks.
You have brought in a war ally, likewise with the trade embargo except its for when you get a 3rd party to declare war on the target. this stacks too. you can get this penalty without declaring war yourself.
You have declared war on ouer friend, each time you declare war on a civ you get a permanent (from my observations) -1 from any civs that are pleased or better with your target civ. it stacks too, and hurts.
You nuked us. this ones pretty obvious: each time you use an ICBM the affected civ(s) will give you a permanent -2 (it stacks) penalty to its standing with you. i dont recall if it will give you the penalty if its SDI intercepts your nuke.
You nuked ouer friend (-1), likewise for the trade embargo, except this time for each time you nuke somebuddys friend. (it stacks tooo :()
Your state religion isnt ouer state religion! if you believe in another religion for a long time the ai will hate you, up to -4 for ordinary ais and -7 for for example isabella. i have seen this penalty hang at -1, this is usually the result of having another religion as the state, but having spread the religion of the target civ across your citys anyway. otherwise the penalty has a tendency to sink to atleast -2 or 3.
You refused to: A-Help us in war B-Stop trading with somebuddy C-Convert to ouer superstition D-Accept ouer favorite civic E-Give us help/tribute F-YOUR UGLY
these negative penaltys are caused by declining demands the ai makes, these stack :mad:
You have signed a defensive pact with someone else to a small extend described above, this penalty stacks. ais give you a -1 each time you sign a defensive pact with a 3rd party, this penalty disappears when the pact is cancelled. (this appears to prevent you from making one huge defensive pact.)
You are ouer neighbour this penalty goes between -1 and -4, it can get to -4 but this requirs you have multiple contested borders with someone, for example when you and someone conquer different citiys in one region. this penalty is aplied when your borders begin to expand inwards into that of a rival, so if a border is moving constantly the 2 involved partys will get a -1 or -2 to their diplomacy standings. however if the ai founds a city next to your border it will usually not complain. founding a culture bomb next to an ai city is not the way to make friends :(. the penalty seems to disappear when a 3rd party whipes out your empire while you take another empire.
[added 15 mins later]You have traded with ouer worst enemys this aplys when you trade with a 3rd party civ with which they are annoyed/furious, when you have traded big techs it usually whines up to the -4 limit. this penalty fades (over very much time).
you have made an arrogant demand! each time you demand something from a civ which has a cautious or worse standing toward you it will give you a permanent -1, it stacks for each time you demand, wether they agree to give or not.
ghandi appears not to use this penalty, from my observations.
You have razed ouer city![rephrased 8 dec '05] each time you capture & raze a city the a civ will give you a -2 permanent and stacking penalty, which civ givs you the penalty depends on the citys nationality, this is usually the nationality of the controlling civ. however if for example japan were to capture new york and the chinese razed it, after capturing it from japan america will give china a -2 penalty.
You have razed the holy city! when you raze the holy city of a religion all the civs with that religion as the state religion will give you a -2 to their standing with you. im not sure if this penalty disappears when the civ converts to another religion


last edit
january 9
2006

Awesome, awesome info. I've been finding Diplo win to be very finicky (well, my first one was on OCC, so that kinda sucks with my own votes :mischief: )

Thanks!

i would like some help in discovering which exact leaders do something with a vengeance of some sort.
isabella is a quite known one with her +5-7 to relations if you share her religion for a long time i think this goes to saladin as well. im not sure about when you are heathen.
ghandi doesnt care if you threaten him.
any others? for example civs that give less of a bonus or penalty depending on religion.

edit: also some further help on how much bonus you get from having the same civics would be great.

"You are our neighbour" can even get worse when you have a complicated border.. up to -4.... got that that way because i and the russians waged war against spain.. and conquered different cities as can be seen in this picture..

106401

thanks, it has been changed.

The "You razed our city" penalty doesn't always end up with the civ that owned the city just before you razed it. In a recent game, I took a city from the Chinese, but it was in an exposed location, with cultural pressure from both the Chinese and Greeks (who also didn't like me). I knew it would be very difficult to hold, so I gave it to the Arabs, hoping to (a) get them to like me, and (b) cause friction between them and the Chinese/Greeks. I guess Saladin didn't like the city's location much either, because the next turn he declared war on me. Several turns later I recaptured the city from Saladin and this time I razed it. Saladin didn't seem to mind, but the Chinese got the "You razed our city!" modifier against me. I'm guessing that the Chinese still had the most culture in the city, so they got the modifier.

Keith

This was a great synopsis on the Diplomatic Victory strategy. I have tried several times without success to acheive a diplomatic win. Usually what happens is that another AI or 2 will be building their spaceship and I am trying to keep pace with them while at the same time trying to swing the UN vote in my favor and I end up with a spcae race victory instead. :confused:

how do you see the +/- modifiers between the AI?

i only know how to ask the AI what they think about someone through diplomacy, but only get to see the pleased/annoyed/etc. descripiton.

I hate the fact that the "you traded with our worst ennemy" can last for EVER!!!!

In my last game... Chinese were the first other continent player I discover and I traded with them!!! But they were hated by everyone else that I didnt know... I instantly gain a -4 with almost everybody!!! Thats OK, I cancelled deal with them which gave me a +1.. and SLOWLY and MEAN SLOOOOOWLY decay the -4...

I went further than my space victory and still in 2100AD after I wage war with Egyptian as an Ally against Chinese and still had a -1 for Trading with enemy... for those who would say it was for another trade... I checked and everybody else on the map were pleased with one another... it seem a little bit stupid IMO!!! -1 aint that much of a big deal after all... except that Victoria didnt had it and was elected Secretary until I bashed my way to it (having enough vote to elect myself :king: )

how do you see the +/- modifiers between the AI?

i only know how to ask the AI what they think about someone through diplomacy, but only get to see the pleased/annoyed/etc. descripiton.


Go to the foreign advisor window (should be accessible by pressing F4), you'll see the portraits of the leaders that you know and the lines between them showing Open Borders, War, Defensive pacts etc.

If you click on one of the leaders you will see just the lines coming from that individual. Mousing over another leader will show what that other leader thinks of the leader that you clicked, listing all the modifiers of their view of the leader.

Oh, and as to point 1. I was under the impression that this was due to some leaders being nicer compared with the more aggressive leaders.

For instance a leader like Montezuma will be annoyed without any modifiers, whilst there are other leaders that are nicer and tend to be pleased with far fewer positive modifiers.

I understand that the person you are up agains in the election is the person with the next number of votes; what determines the number of votes?

I understand that the person you are up agains in the election is the person with the next number of votes; what determines the number of votes?

Isn't it population?

"6. # You have wisely chosen your civics. i have seen this bonus go to +6 inbetween ai civs and between myself and roosevelt (after i voted all 5 UN civics passed). this bonus appears to be random to me. however there is a set of rules, if you and a target civ have 2 different civics you will not get a diplomacy bonus for it. the 5 starting civics also dont give a bonus. slavery doesnt appear to either. however if you choose a leaders favorite civic (read it up in civilopedia -> leaders) and more civics that this civ also has it will usually grant you a diplomacy bonus. i have seen it go to +6."

This is incorrect. You ONLY get a bonus if both you and the other civic actually runs the other civ's favourite civ. So not only you have to have his favourite civ, but he has to be using it right now too. If it's not true, then you don't get ANY bonus, even if all of the civics are common. You don't need any other common civics, only this one to earn the bonus, however more common civics increase the bonus.

I believe they get utterly pissed when you use nuclear weapons against them as well. Sorry, I don't have a test game to check right now, but I remember in one game getting -11 from nuclear weapon usage.

I was recently in a game where there were myself and 4 other AI civs at the time of the UN vote. I was first in population, first in approval rating, first in score, but behind Huayana in science and military. The other 3 civs basically held our fate. I had a better happiness "score" with ALL of them than they had with Huayana ... yet 2 of the 3 voted for Huayana. Why? My happiness levels weren't overwhelming on all of them (+12 versus +4) (+6 versus +5) (+6 versus +3), but I was leading nonetheless.
There has to be other factors. Does anybody know what they are?

ais seem to have internal relations that it doesnt show in the foreign screen, this can sometimes be observed in the early game where the only positive modifiers are the years of peace and open borders, where ais will turn pleased(or annoyed) with eachother even though it doesnt show any modifïers. the best explanation i can give for the +12 vs +4 is that at the time of the vote the modifïers might have been different, compared to the moment the votes were shown. (maybe it was +9 vs +8ish at the time of voting).
the only way to break this is to (i think) have them declare war, or improve your relations even further.

"You have traded with out worst enemy" doesn't apply when trading with civilization the AI has a bad relationship with, but when trading with the civilization the AI has the worst relationship with. This means you can get the penalty when trading with a civilization the AI has as Pleased if it is Friendly with everyone else!

"You made an arrogant demand". In my experience it only triggers when a tribute is refused by the AI. Whenever they accept they do not get any angrier.

iv had the ai give me -1 for demanding items from them, at all times including when they actually gave me what i wanted and when they did not.

"You have traded with out worst enemy" doesn't apply when trading with civilization the AI has a bad relationship with, but when trading with the civilization the AI has the worst relationship with. This means you can get the penalty when trading with a civilization the AI has as Pleased if it is Friendly with everyone else!

are you positive about that?
that's actually good news--it means there's only one civ you need to worry about not trading with to avoid upsetting an ally, rather than all the one's he's annoyed/furious with...

this was an outstanding post. i immediately started a diplo game, and unfortunately still lost. well, gave up after i realized i'd never get the vote--although i was winning the game overall.

what i found is that it was near impossible to overcome the relations the civs had with each other. it was easy to get the civs that started on my continent in line...lots of trading and getting one of them to switch to my religeon did the trick, even with the civ i went to war with early on. where i ran into trouble was when the other civs found us. because of their religeons, they were hated by my allies from the outset. this meant that i couldn't trade with them or i'd lose the vote of my allies. their religeon never spread to my civ either, so that was also out of the question--even if i could afford the negative effect with my existing allies.

how do you overcome this? do you trade with them anyway, and live with deficit on your other allies' relations? i also read in a recent post on this thread that each civ only has ONE other civ that's their "worst enemy". this would make things easier...

i wasn't able to convince anyone to switch civics, even when they were pleased with me. i guess you have to be "friendly" at least?

you could try a number of things,

the first is to ignore your allies attitude toward the other continent and get your relations up with the biggest civs over there (except for your competitor), also your state religion might be the biggest problem here, i almost always go for free religion if not the universal free religion civic because it takes out a lot of hate, you cant get very many on one religion anyway, on higher difficultys. you can try to get the positive modifier back by waging mutual war on a small civ with as many civs as you can, firstly with the ones you havent befriended yet (target civ shouldnt be to small so that it will die in 5 turns)

another way is to beeline for a few advanced techs and pay everyone on the other continent to war with eachother and then helping one (or more) of your allies to conquer their continent (to increase the size of the population that votes for you. take note that you might be capable of turning one or more people on the other continent into an allie, if you are to lazy to do the fighting yourself you can gift them units (and techs). youll get a higher score by doing the conquering yourself.

in all cases, be carefull with who gets how much population, if you dont control whos going to be your competitor things might get ugly really quick.

Am I the only one disappointed with the Diplomatic Victory screen? I got my first one last weekend and it was just my leader's pic sitting infront of the the UN logo.

All the other victories have cool movies to go with them - why is this one so lame?

the diplo win is a lot more subtle then other victorys, after all you dont go out nuking everyone in a spectacular explosion.
It has a lot of context you dont see.

Is the winner for control of the U.N and the winner of the Diplomatic Victory counted in different ways or something? Last game I was in, the U.N. was built and the world looked like this, for score.

Roosevelt(me) in first, with a decent lead
Louis
Catherine, just a few points behind Louis.
Ceaser, a fair amount behind
Toguwa,under a thousand, and lucky we left him those two cities.

When the vote for head came up, it was between Louis and Roosevelt. Catherine, Toguwa, and Louis voted for him, Caesar and I voted for me, and he barely won. However, a few turns later, he tries to push the cultural victory through, and even though there had been no serious changes in diplomatic relations, this time everyone but Louis voted for me. Even Toguwa, and I had conquered half of Japan!

it takes fewer votes to be voted for control over UN. diplo wins takes a lot more votes

I should clarify then. Is the other Civ's way of choosing who to vote for different between Control of U.N. and Diplomatic Victory? Because in that game, Toguwa absolutely hated me, I had overrun half his cities while France had stayed out, had remained on good terms. Yet when Louis tried for Diplomatic Victory, Toguwa voted for me instead of his good buddy. Same with Catherine. They had both voted him into control of the U.N. a few turns ago.

i dont know
perhaps it was the difficulty you were playing on

Does anyone know the rules on Abstaining from UN votes? Can you only Abstain once or not twice in a row? Are the Abstain votes just removed, or do you still need to get the same number of votes for a diplo victory?

Very theoretical example: 5 civs each holding 20% of population. If 3 abstain, would it prevent a diplo victory, or would the vote of the other two prevail?

the required amount of votes required to pass a UN resolution is fixed in regards to abstaining voters.

I think diplomatic victory is often just a quicker domination victory. Would you really bother to curry favour with almost all of the AIs? In a typical game of 7 civs, I will be hostile with at least 3 of them. It makes it hard to get the votes, considering not all the other 3 would necessarily vote for me, unless I have a huge empire. In my last game I had to be able to field more than 250 votes out of the required 386 on my own to finally secure victory.

Another thing, I find that the 3rd largest civ, who is not directly your competitor, would most likely abstain. I observed that Saladin, who was pleased with me throughout the whole game, did not vote for my victory (he was the 3rd largest). Asoka, on the other hand, who got annoyed at me from time to time voted for me all the time when he was pleased (his empire was one of the smallest). Montezuma, a regular enemy, was the 2nd largest civ until I bashed into his country with tanks and artillery. Then he became the 3rd civ and he too abstained. But that could be cause Monte wasn't too happy with Saladin either. Could this be due to some quirk in the Saladin AI?

Don't you think diplomatic victory is the easiest? I just get too lazy to wage more war that I feel is necessary - just enough to make me superpower. War makes every turn extremely long and tiring. And I think winning the elections saves me from the nightmare of further micromanaging a huge modern empire that is nowhere near completing the spaceship. I really don't know how anyone can be bothered to do anything else :p

if you'r to lazy to do it by conquest or domination you have diplomatic, provided you'r not going for a pre 1500AD victory. Going for diplomatic from the beginning is a whole other, longer and more painfull process.

oops, wrong thread. sorry

I should clarify then. Is the other Civ's way of choosing who to vote for different between Control of U.N. and Diplomatic Victory? Because in that game, Toguwa absolutely hated me, I had overrun half his cities while France had stayed out, had remained on good terms. Yet when Louis tried for Diplomatic Victory, Toguwa voted for me instead of his good buddy. Same with Catherine. They had both voted him into control of the U.N. a few turns ago.

yes, it's a different function, so a different result ;)

There must be a SG, so Ais will simply vote for the guy they like most.
(I believe they will abstain only if they are annoyed with both candidates)

But when it comes to victory, you need to be at +X at least, or they will abstain.
X is 8 IMHO, but it may vary.

Some hidden relation modifiers :
- agressive AI setting : hidden -2 modifier for all AIs towards the human!
- warmonger respect : warmonger have a hidden -2 to start with, and a hidden +1 or +2 towards other warmongers. This is why alex and montezuma start at pleased to each other and at cautious at best with you.

You have shared your technology with us, when you gift techs to the ai often it will not only develop a menacing tech lead (on emperor) but also give you a whoppy +1-4 to its relations with you. i believe this also triggers the negative bonus of you have TRADED WITH ENMY penalty with 3rd party civs, im not sure.
I'm not able to find anything about this in the AI leader attitudes excel sheets in the war room. Any idea where this is coded or what specific factors affect it?

I'm just wondering how to increase the likelihood of it happening. Are there specific techs that particular AIs like that might trigger it? Or does it have to do with what the tech opens up?

I also couldn't find anything about when AIs give you negative modifiers for trading with their enemies. Where can I find that info?

For that matter, where can I find the xmls that people study to make the excel sheet?

about the shared technology bonus

I'm not able to find anything about this in the AI leader attitudes excel sheets in the war room. Any idea where this is coded or what specific factors affect it?

I'm just wondering how to increase the likelihood of it happening. Are there specific techs that particular AIs like that might trigger it? Or does it have to do with what the tech opens up?

It has a lot to do with trading monoploy techs. If you trade a well known tech, you get no bonus. If you trade away a monopoly tech, the Ai will be honoured and give you this bonus.
If you run agressive trading with a friend (usually Mansa Musa, the only one with which you can trade all game long), it can climb nicely :)

yes, it's a different function, so a different result ;)

There must be a SG, so Ais will simply vote for the guy they like most.
(I believe they will abstain only if they are annoyed with both candidates)

they will abstain when they have an attitude of 0 or less with both candidates (note: this is still cautious - annoyed starts at -3)


But when it comes to victory, you need to be at +X at least, or they will abstain.
X is 8 IMHO, but it may vary.

it is +8 and does not change


- warmonger respect : warmonger have a hidden -2 to start with, and a hidden +1 or +2 towards other warmongers. This is why alex and montezuma start at pleased to each other and at cautious at best with you.

warmonger respect works a tad different: they do not have -2 necessarily, they have their base attitude. all Leaders have a warmonger respect value of 0 to +4 - when to of them meet the lower of those two values becomes their modifier (so two leaders with +4 will have +4 and two with 0 and +4 will have 0).

I also couldn't find anything about when AIs give you negative modifiers for trading with their enemies. Where can I find that info?

the Worst Enemy is explained here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5032975&postcount=4) whenever you trade with that one you start earning negative modifiers


For that matter, where can I find the xmls that people study to make the excel sheet?

it is CIV4LeaderheadInfos.xml in assets/xml/civilizations

they will abstain when they have an attitude of 0 or less with both candidates (note: this is still cautious - annoyed starts at -3)

OK

it is +8 and does not change
yep, but the hidden modifiers (base attitude mostly, and agressive AI setting) made it hard to tell :lol: . With your table, it gets easier of course, thanks.

warmonger respect works a tad different: they do not have -2 necessarily, they have their base attitude. all Leaders have a warmonger respect value of 0 to +4 - when to of them meet the lower of those two values becomes their modifier (so two leaders with +4 will have +4 and two with 0 and +4 will have 0).
It's strange, the excel sheet only has 0, 1 and 2s.
is it double somewhere, or is there a multiplication of the warmonger respect that gives some 0, some +2 and others +4?

It's strange, the excel sheet only has 0, 1 and 2s.
is it double somewhere, or is there a multiplication of the warmonger respect that gives some 0, some +2 and others +4?

I should get some sleep :crazyeye: - it is 0 - 2 of course.
However the PeaceWeight modifier explained in my signature link can make the difference much higher (in theory Gandhi and Monty can start out with a -9 PeaceWeight modifier between each other while Monty and Alex can start with +4) the +2 for Warmonger respect is then added for Monty and Alex, so they start out as buddies...

No wonder they didnt vote for me -27 you nuked us- 12 you nuked our friend along with all the other goodies, but at least their spaceship wasnt radiation proof.

What are the benefits of selecting your leader's favorite civic?

Question: When are the votes tallied for a diplomatic victory (or, for that matter, ANY UN Vote.)

Example: The UN is built. Roosevelt and Mansa Musa are the election contenders. At end end of turn 1, Mansa has 150 votes, Roosevelt has 148 votes; 151 votes are requred to win the secretary general seat. At the beginning of turn 2, the pop-up for the election occurs. Mansa's votes at that time = 150, Roosevelt = 148. During turn 2, military action increases Roosevelt's vote total to 152. What result? Is it a tie, since neither candidate had 151 votes -- or does Roosevelt win?

Question: When are the votes tallied for a diplomatic victory (or, for that matter, ANY UN Vote.)

In my experience its at the end of the turn - the votes given in the popup never match the votes cast (when playing with many opponents atleast) which usually is due to city growth during the turn or war actions... I can't back it up with code though.

about the shared technology bonus
It has a lot to do with trading monoploy techs. If you trade a well known tech, you get no bonus. If you trade away a monopoly tech, the Ai will be honoured and give you this bonus.

i had the WEIRDEST case of this last night.

i was running a pure-diplo-focus one-city-challenge game, hoping for no wars at all, just to finesse the whole thing. hand-pick civs for hopefully no wars (washington did declare on gandhi but no cities were lost, and only one worst enemy was made). so i had mansa, gandhi, asoka, washington, roosevelt, hatty, and freddy, standard/inland seas/normal speed/monarch. my goal was to just convince them to like me more than they like the other guy, no matter who the other guy is, inflencing population via health/luxuries is fine, decimating population by warfare is not, etc. that's the game i was looking for, OCCs are quick and they can be really suspenseful sometimes.

i'm trading with all of them, all the way through, to get good relations, to speed up my beelining since if i don't build the UN myself i'm hosed, etc. religions spread nicely, i got CoL first and it spread well enough for me to get good use out of OR and pacifism safely for a bit there, then at the end there was the buddhist set, the hindu set, and me off in free religion land.

check out this picture:
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p285/kmadcandy/sharedbutnofair.jpg

it looks weird to me, because the +1 shared technology is there but there's no "our trade relations have been fair and forthright". i'd never had the shared without the fair/forthright before. i hadn't realized that you could. i mean now that i think about it, it's not illogical. i just hadn't had it happen. i never got fair and forthright with this guy, altho i had been trading techs (and resources) with him all along. note that there's also a +2 for supplying resources, even tho i'm not any more, but i'd recently cut his off supply, he was voting for the wrong guy after all. even supplying him with luxuries forever tho hadn't done the fair/forthright thing. tech-wise, he was first to banking/econ that part of the line and stuff. any techs like that, which he had and might trade before i absolutely needed them, i'd wait on him to trade them rather than others, and i gave him good deals on stuff, obviously at least one monopoly, since i knew his trading limit was small. i handed out freebies. but i never got any progress at all on the bonus. i know some have stingier definitions of fair than others but he was driving me CRAZY. that +1 shared your tech bonus is there from the first save i have, at 780 AD so clearly i got that very early. i just freaking gave up on fair/forthright tho. i felt so close, he didn't really like mansa a lot, it was mostly the religion, but i couldn't crack his definition of fair.

everybody else i got to +4 fair/forthright eventually. some i had to monitor to keep at 4, and one of the americans was slow to get up there but they did all got to 4. freddy tho, no progress. he liked me almost as much as he did mansa, but i didn't want to risk a vote for free religion since the -s mansa was getting from the hindus were good for me in some ways. so, i figured i'd keep my side in happiness (had some spare engineers, build rock&roll and broadway for lack of anything better to do) and just hope we got big enough before too many space ship parts got built. i gave us biology and medicine, etc.

some folks had built apollo, and the first few parts were rolling off the line. purely to make money to pay for sabotage i might need, i held a tech sale, and i hit freddy since he was the richest. he offered me all of his cash+world map for mass media (one, maybe two, other civs had it by then). i took world map out of the deal since i don't like the pause for the map to refresh itself. it's only monarch, so normally i'd not worry about them launching, but they're not gonna go to war, and they're pretty much the set of opponents that are most likely to get a tin can into space if they are left alone, so, i got my spies ready.

next turn, UN vote comes up again, i call diplo victory as usual since to see how much progress my side has made. and i hit enter, and ... i won? freddy voted for me?

turned out, selling him MM finally got me the +4 fair and forthright. that was what did it, and got me his vote. i checked the turn after the win to see what had happened since i'd forgotten about that trade! to me it wasn't even a trade, it was "getting money for spies." but that was all that had changed.

i've had a lot of games where i've been able to get someone up to +4 on the first turn that i met them. i've had games when i don't care if i get to +4 because i just want them to die. and i've had games (including this one) where i've had people get to +1 or +2 fairly quickly but then had to put in real effort to hit (or to stay at) the +4. i've never had a game where for the entire game i wanted so badly to get somebody to +4, but they stubbornly stayed at 0, and then zoomed to +4 in one move without me even noticing, lmao. and how very convenient, it won me the game. why didn't i think of gifting him radio or MM the turn i was going to finish the UN? :wallbash: i had just given up, i mean hubby had been laughing at me for centuries (in gamewise) talking to the screen going "what in the heck do you consider fair and forthright???" so then to have finally found the key when i wasn't looking just makes me feel utterly brilliant and completely stupid at the same time.

looking back, probably what i could have done to fix that early was doing one of the "ok, time to hand out a freebie to everybody, who gets it first?" rounds like i did with compass. those i tended to look at who i was overall lowest with in points, and then see who'd of the low-in-favor ones i get a big trade/shared boost with by giving them first dibs. i think maybe i was already fairly high in points with fred already, so he wasn't one of the first ones i looked at, and instead favored the lower ones, when i ought to have favored him once in a round of that for the +4 fair and forthright. would have won me the game so much earlier. neither asoka or gandhi liked me as much as freddy did at first when i built the UN, but they voted for me for diplo since they didn't like mansa. if i'd had freddy at +4 from that early on ... /sigh *giggle*oh right ... i bumped this thread to ask a question. the first post in this thread says that supplying resources can contribute to the fair/forthright trade. does it sometimes? i think good old fred here proves it doesn't all the time. this was an OCC game, and he was the only one that had wheat to trade with me. wheat = +2 health with granary. i traded him my only gems for that wheat, even before i had hereditary rule. i saw he had it up in the trade resource window, and neither of us had currency. in OCC, health is everything, better more unhappy people now than future healthy people gone forever because guaranteed he'll trade it away to someone else. i later swapped who was getting which resources so that i could get the "supplied us with resources" from everybody, but trust me, i'd been supplying him with resources for a long time. we'd been doing resource trading all along, he'd only just gotten cut off since i'd done the "ok fine mansa, you and your little buddies please be unhealthy and unhappy ok?" pouty thing.

oh right ... i bumped this thread to ask a question. the first post in this thread says that supplying resources can contribute to the fair/forthright trade. does it sometimes?
only if you gift the resource!
you get the other item for lastin gresource deals (provided resource thing)

only if you gift the resource!
you get the other item for lastin gresource deals (provided resource thing)

thanks. i did that some for him too! he was just in a mood until the very end i'm convinced! thanks tho :)

No wonder they didnt vote for me -27 you nuked us- 12 you nuked our friend along with all the other goodies, but at least their spaceship wasnt radiation proof.

Hehe, this reminds me of a genocidal war I had against Monty once. I razed every city that I came across, then vassalized him because I didn't feel like searching for his last city. He had a -27 You razed our city! but since he was my b**** he still had to vote for me. That made me laugh pretty hard.

-27? That's nothing. :D

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k259/radu_stancu/Civ4/razing.jpg

The beauty of fighting on another continent: 3 wars (-9) & didn't even keep the holy city.