Please note that this mod is based on Stone-D's SD-Religion MOD version 1.10.


CHANGES IN VERSION 1.1

As in SD-Religion MOD version 1.10, this mod creates new technologies for researching specific religions.

Once the appropriate prerequisites are reached, a new technology with the name of the religion being researched will become available.

The mod has been divided into four early religions, one unique middle religion (Confucianism), and two later religions.

The four early religions cost approximately the same given their prerequisites. It is hoped that their similar costs will cause them not to be monopolized by one civilization, as this would be difficult considering the small technological discrepancies between the civilizations in the early stages of the game.

The two later religions cost identical amounts and have the same prerequisites. It is hoped that their similar costs will cause them not to be monopolized by one civilization, as their cost is relatively high and it would be a significant expenditure of time to obtain both religions.

BUDDHISM- costs 160 research points. One of the four early religions. Requires Priesthood and Meditation. Receives no free missionaries.

CHRISTIANITY- costs 340 research points. One of the two late religions. Requires Priesthood and Theology. Receives one free missionary.

CONFUCIANISM- costs 160 research points. A unique religion between the early and later religions. Requires Priesthood and Code of Laws. Receives no free missionaries.

HINDUISM- costs 150 research points. One of the four early religions. Requires Priesthood and Polytheism. Receives no free missionaries.

ISLAM- costs 340 research points. One of the two late religions. Requires Priesthood and Theology. Receives one free missionary.

JUDAISM- costs 20 research points. One of the four early religions. Requires Priesthood and Monotheism. Receives no free missionaries.

TAOISM- costs 140 research points. One of the four early religions. Requires Priesthood, Meditation and Agriculture. Receives no free missionaries.

Additionally, the Divine Right Technology requires the advent of either Christianity or Islam.

One more change is that the spread factor for Judaism has been lowered to 90 and the spread factors for Christianity and Islam have been increased to 105. Judaism was added because it requires very little research to obtain, while Christianity and Islam have been upgraded to help them spread given their natural disadvantage as late game religions.

Other changes that are present in SD-Religion MOD version 1.10 and are not from this mod include the following:
All of the technologies present serve no purpose other than to provide their respective religions.

As far as I can tell, the AI should treat these technologies as it will religious technologies.

After one religious technology has been discovered, it is automatically distributed to all other civilizations so that nobody else may continue to research it, as there would be no point in doing so.


CHANGES IN VERSION 1.2


Incorporated Armandeus' newly organized tech tree. Thanks to Armandeus for making it possible.


(Version 1.1 removed, 17.4 KB, 112 views)

Question: When you tried it, did the AI research any religions at all? Also, do spiritual leaders care more about these techs?

yes, the AI treats all of the religious techs as religion-founding techs, ie meditation, polytheism, etc. it may not be an exact reflection of the normal religion strategy, but the AI definitely researches religions on its own.

all of the new techs have religiousflavor=10 and culturalflavor=4, so spiritual leaders should naturally go for them more than your average leader.

the other thing is that the techs have been modified so that the AI should treat them as religious techs that are in the approximate time period of the religion. ie buddhism and taoism are treated as meditation because the AI can get them right after researching meditation and priesthood. islam is treated like theology because it does not necessitate divine right. these do not (i think) reflect prerequisites, but effects and tech costs.

Finally! No more repeats of "Honey, I Founded a Religion"! Thanks, Niffweed!

Would it be possible/feasible to tie culture in with the research costs?
I never liked that what religions you could get depended only on your science rate.
It sort of mixes two things that should not be mixed, doesn't it?

Maybe make it so it cost more science to research a religion, the more religions you have founded.

both of your ideas are interesting, but i have absolutely no idea how to implement them. zuul's i think would be easier, but i would still have trouble doing it as i really don't know too much about python- the python files here are basically from Stone-D's mod, with a couple of very minor changes.

however, i did attempt to make the religions difficult to monopolize by making the religion tech costs more significant than they were in Stone-D's mod. researching a religion is now cheaper than most techs, but still will take a couple turns away from other useful technological progress, so it's probably the best strategy to merely found one religion and then keep researching legitimate techs.

Religions are pretty valuable in Civ4. A holy city and it's respective shrine can make the difference between 70% science rate and 100% science rate it seems. I would definitely go out of my way to research 3-4 religions if I stood a chance.

Perhaps another way to found a religion could be with "wonders". You build the burning bush and you get Judaism, as an example. Python could be used so that each turn the production rate of the city is subtracted and instead the culture rate is added.

I have been trying my hardest to switch things over to a Prophet + Tech > Shrine > Religion model, which works and will give the religion. But cant prevent the Holy City from being created when a player discovers the religions Technology.

Whats needed is some kind of Python script that will run when the "religion founded" event fires. It would need to somehow supress the whole event, prevent popups and movies, remove the holy city ect ect. Then your just left with the Shrine on its own to spread the religion. If people realy wanted it a second script could fire when a shrine is built and give the normal religion founded movie, anouncments and put the holy city ware the shrine is. Personaly I dont like whole holyCity thing, its too powerfull of a bonus and the free line of sight thing steals the thunder from spies who realy need beefing up.

Another question here: I'm using abbamuse's mod which gives specific traits to every religion + changes the names of missionaries + changes the name of confucism to zorothism or something, would your mod work with it??

i can't honestly say yes or no definitively, not having looked at abbamouse's mod. if none of the same files are used, then you should be able to combine the files for most of the religions. you would also have to modify the confucianist technology to reflect zoroastrianism rather than confucianism.

assuming none of the same python files are used, it would take some work, but it could be done. if the same python files are used, it could still probably be done, but i'm afraid i couldn't be of much help in combining those as i only have a very basic understanding of python.

I love the idea above of having to build a wonder to found the religion (i.e., burning bush --> Judaism, Nazarean Manger-->Christianity).

Perhaps it could be made to work if the technologies that currently grant a specific religion instead permit construction of the appropriate wonder. Once that wonder is complete you are granted the relgion. As a hack at this, you could have the wonder grant the "Technology" of the religion. Make sense?

I was trying to modifying the Judiasm tech so it'd grant 5 missionaries to the first civ which discovers it (because I gave it a lower spread rate), anyone know how to grant it that?

Of course it has to be only for the first civ...

Also to increase the period where a civ cannot switch religions to 200 turns, but I can't find the xml line :cry:

Sevo: This could be done in principle, Shrines could be altered to have normal costs rather then -1 hammer which seems to be linked with anybuilding which is created by a GreatPerson. The Shrine already gives the religion regardless of the players tecnology but Holy Cities dont change. Also the Religions must still have tecs assosiated with them and Holy Cities will be created when thouse tecs are reached.

Another idea might giving a Great Prophet when a Religion tec is researched. Their might even be a different Great Prophet for each Religions which can build only the Shrine of their particular religion. Personaly I think thats going a bit overboard.

Fachy, granting 5 missionaries for judaism is pretty easy, but needs python. Use my sdReligion mod as a basis, it sets the holy city where you want to grant missionaries.

Okay...I've been pouring over just about every python and XML file there is for the last few days while putting together some of my own mods, but I think I see a couple of ways this religion thing could be done now.

Ideally, what would be the most interesting from gameplay standpoint would be something like this:

1.) You research an appropriate tech to grant some new understanding that could lead to a religion (e.g., meditation).

2.) The Tech alone does not grant you the religion. E.g., perhaps all your peeps are now meditating, but they don't necessarily all fall onto a religion bandwagon just yet. That requires something...wonderous.

3.) The new tech allows the construction of a new holy-wonder. First civ to construct the holy wonder (Giant Budda, Confucian Tome, or whatever) "Founds" the religion and THAT city becomes the holy city. Makes more sense now as well because now all supplicants to that religion have a reason to go and visit the city, hence the added income bonus when a shrine is built. A great prophet could still be used to build a shrine in the holy city.

From a nuts-and-bolts perspective, I think this could be incorporated easily enough:

1) Tech X (meditation, for example) allows wonder X (Massive Goat Statue)
2) Wonder X (goat Statue), when built, grants Tech Y (Goat Statue Cult)
3) Tech Y (Goat Statue Cult) is a specific religion tech that is unresearchable from the normal tree and once gifted by the wonder grants the Goat Statue Cult Religion, and is granted to everyone when one person gets it. Or not...I'm not sure if it even matters.


I think we could make that work...
('course, at the moment I can't get rid of the fog of war bug plaguing my mod...BAH!)

Sounds good!

Something else for you guys to ponder that's just popped into my skull. Rather than the player building a... um, building, how about adding some randomness.

Say Tech X (as per your post, Sevo) triggered the creation of a Prophet unit. This unit has ZERO movement points... YOU do not move him, a script does, randomly. The prophet follows roads to cities. Once there, he *MAY* set up a religion, OR 'gather followers' (minus 1 pop) and move on to another city. In transit, if he comes across a nice place, he may settle down and found a religious commune and THEN found the religion.

these are all interesting ideas, to say the least, but i fear that i will be of little assistance in their implementation, for they would necessitate some rather complicated python scripting.

The Shrine already gives the religion regardless of the players tecnology but Holy Cities dont change.

What did you mean by that? Coz I'm suffering to discover the religionchange extra line in the Shrine building!

Stoned: So in your mod, missionaries are granted to a holy city or what? I think I can easily make the first to research judiasm takes 5 free missionaries, just like the first who discovers econonmics receives a great merchant (that's xml no?)

Dunno about xml, but with that code you'd replace the holy city bit with a call to self.initUnit(unitInfo, city.plot.getX(), city.plot.getY(), 1)

Or something similar.

Oh I dunno about python... let's see when they release the modder by "early 2006"

Guys, there are 2 lines which are all set to NONE and 0 in all buildings:
<bPrereqReligion>0, <StateReligion>NONE
Now, one of them means you must have that specified religion as a state religion to build the building. Anyone has an idea what does the other line does?

Oh I dunno about python... let's see when they release the modder by "early 2006"

Guys, there are 2 lines which are all set to NONE and 0 in all buildings:
<bPrereqReligion>0, <StateReligion>NONE
Now, one of them means you must have that specified religion as a state religion to build the building. Anyone has an idea what does the other line does?


<bPrereqReligion> is the prerequisite religion you must have in your city to build this building. <StateReligion> this means you must have this religion as State religion to build this building. Helpful?

You're wrong because hindu temples requires hinduism to be present in the city, yet NONE of the buildings don't have any <bprereqreligion>. I think it means "any religion needs to exist in the city for this building to be built", like someone else said. Thanks anyway ^.^

Umm, look again:

<BuildingInfo>
<BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_JEWISH_TEMPLE</BuildingClass>
<Type>BUILDING_JEWISH_TEMPLE</Type>
<SpecialBuildingType>SPECIALBUILDING_TEMPLE</SpecialBuildingType>
<Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_JEWISH_TEMPLE</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_JEWISH_TEMPLE_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_JEWISH_TEMPLE_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Advisor>ADVISOR_RELIGION</Advisor>
<ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_BUILDING_JEWISH_TEMPLE</ArtDefineTag>
<MovieDefineTag>NONE</MovieDefineTag>
<HolyCity>NONE</HolyCity>
<ReligionType>RELIGION_JUDAISM</ReligionType>
<StateReligion>NONE</StateReligion>
<PrereqReligion>RELIGION_JUDAISM</PrereqReligion>
<GlobalReligionCommerce>NONE</GlobalReligionCommerce>


It's there for Cathedrals & Monasteries too. And yes, at least in my vanilla 1.52 install, for Hindu buildings as well.

You're wrong because hindu temples requires hinduism to be present in the city, yet NONE of the buildings don't have any <bprereqreligion>. I think it means "any religion needs to exist in the city for this building to be built", like someone else said. Thanks anyway ^.^

Fachy you are a funny guy:p

Kid I was talking about <bPrereqReligion> not <PrereqReligion>
Red why am I funny? ^.^

Kid I was talking about <bPrereqReligion> not <PrereqReligion>
Red why am I funny? ^.^

I can't quite put my finger on it, but you sometimes come off as sort of an angry chap ya know? I will say however you seem a bit less caustic since you returned from your most recent banning. :goodjob:

lol my banning was cause I discussed king turner_747's commands on public, not coz I was rude to someone or anything like that

This is a cool mod, but when I tried to look at the science advisor, the tech tree was a mess. The religious techs were all on top of each other.

It took me several hours, but I cleaned it up. The only thing that I did differently from what the mod description says is:
"Additionally, the Divine Right Technology requires the advent of either Christianity or Islam."
I wasn't sure how to do this. If you have two technologies in the prerequisites for a tech, don't both of them have to be known before you can get the tech?
OrPreReqs are those techs you have room on the chart for the actual lines, and AndPreReqs are for times when the prerequisite tech is too far on the chart to draw a line - instead you get an icon saying this tech is also needed.
Please explain how you make Divine Right activate if EITHER tech a OR tech b is discovered, and not on condition that both are, like with all other techs.

Armandeus, OR prereqs are also that - you can have any one of the OR prerequisistes and still research the technology.

Firaxis *also* made OR drawn as lines and AND drawn as icons, and so to get lines on the chart they also sometimes give techs a single 'OR' prereq, which is equivalent to an AND.

the 22 major religions and their size

1. Christianity: 2.1 billion i think this building should be new etstament try and create the buildings as holy books

2. Islam: 1.3 billion have their building be the karan

3. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion they dont need to be added

4. Hinduism: 900 million Sanatan Dharma i think is the best bet for a holy scripture

5. Chinese traditional religion: 394 million this is the folk tale religions of ancient china not sure this needs to be added still ehvily followed by rural chinese

6. Buddhism: 376 million their are two major Sutra's *teachings of buddha* maybe jsut a wonder called The sutras

7. primal-indigenous: 300 million this is the early tribal religions basical shaminism and animism

8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million these are encient traditional african beleives

9. Sikhism: 23 million this one should be added it is a mjor religion their book is the Guru Granth Sahib this religion is a monotheism and would be avaiable later

10. Juche: 19 million really more of the north korea socialist philosophy then a religion

11. Spiritism: 15 million the modern spirtual movement

12. Judaism: 14 million holy book the bible

13. Baha'i: 7 million Kitáb-i-Aqdas is their holy book another later religion that actually beleive in equality and science

14. Jainism: 4.2 million very old religion based in south east asia but moving alot recently a very strick religion absed on reincarnation they follow a fruitism diet which means they cane at anything that harms animals or plants fruits nuts milk cheese and such only. their holy book is Ardha-Magadhi

15. Shinto: 4 million shintoism is prob the best known of all animism religions the worship sacred spirits though they dont have a major book their are many major shinto shrines in Japan

16. Cao Dai: 4 million a realitively new religion formed in southern veitnam it is monothestic their monument building is the Tay Ninh Holy See a very intresting building Thánh Ngôn Hiệp Tuyển is prob their best bet for a holy scripture

17. Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million very ancient religion absed in southern asia and iran Mathra-Spenta is their holy words

18. Tenrikyo: 2 million a japanese monothestic following that combines some buddhaist and shinto teahcings in it Tenri city or jsut tenri si the spirtual center and monument of the religion Ofudesaki is the msot important scripture

these are prob the most important and rlagest of religions

Armandeus, OR prereqs are also that - you can have any one of the OR prerequisistes and still research the technology.

Firaxis *also* made OR drawn as lines and AND drawn as icons, and so to get lines on the chart they also sometimes give techs a single 'OR' prereq, which is equivalent to an AND.

OK, got it now.

I got the Divine Right thing down, and it's in my tech tree correctly now.

I redid the tech tree (it took HOURS) so that 1) all the religious techs for this mod were in the right places, 2) all techs were vertically aligned by era (I wish there were a way to show the eras by background color or something), and 3) there was a minimum of confusing criss-crossing arrows. (There is only one instance of a crossed arrow - from Code of Laws to Confucianism.)

Some of the religions, just like some techs (like Flight) don't have any arrows pointing to them, but you can see clearly in the top right corner of the tech button what you need to research first.

This is made specifically for this mod, so if you have this mod installed, you just need to copy my CIV4TechInfos.xml file over the one where the mod is installed. I hope the mod creator is pleased.:)

Very nice. I had no idea it was even possible to reorder the tech tree, so good job.

I will include this in the modpack immediately.

Very nice. I had no idea it was even possible to reorder the tech tree, so good job.

I will include this in the modpack immediately.

I'm glad you liked it.:D

Here's a variant I made where instead of having to research Christianity or Islam to get to Divine Right, I made it so you need Christianity or Islam to get Theology, which will then allow Divine Right. I did that because I thought theology represents a refinement of a religion, instead of what comes first.

After reading the Civilopedia more carefully, I moved some religions around. Buddhism, Judaism, and Hinduism are unchanged from the original mod. However, I changed Taoism, Confucianism (I think), Christianity, and Islam. Taoism becomes a Classical religion requiring literature (according to when the founder's books were used to justify revering him as a deity), Confucianism is Ancient requiring Writing (Confucius lived in the Ancient era, and Chinese is not exactly an "Alphabet"), Christianity was changed to require Monarchy and moved to the Classical era, because this is when Constantine adopted it as his state religion, and that is what propelled Christianity to domination of Europe. Islam is Medieval and requires Code of Laws, because it's founder lived in the 600s (early medieval) and there is much emphasis on religious laws.

Again, I tried very hard to avoid crossing arrows, but it was unavoidable in one place. It's not too distracting, so it should be OK. Techs are still lined up vertically by era.

If you prefer that version over the original mod, here is the tech tree. Everything else is unchanged from the original mod, and you need those files. Just replace the tech tree with mine.

i actually think my version worked rather well in terms of when religions could be founded and their subsequent influences.

even so, i think that some of your justifications aren't really that accurate... how is islam branching off of code of laws, for example? while it's true that the religion demands strict conduct, it's not all that different from other religions of the era and it certainly doesn't differentiate the actual codes which confucius created. i also don't quite understand how christianity is necessarily created from monarchy.

the other thing which i've tried to pay attention to is the actual starting dates of the religions. in my original mod, it's possible to found hinduism and judaism at around 1500 BC, their approximate origins. taoism, buddhism, and confucianism all come at around 500 BC, and christianity and islam are later, around 500 AD (admittedly a little late for christianity, but it's still normally founded before islam due to the way the AI treats the technologies). these are far more accurate than the founding dates in the game. i don't know how your version will adversely affect these dates.

despite all of what i have said above, i'm certainly willing to try a game out on your edits to see if it makes some significant changes on gameplay.

i actually think my version worked rather well in terms of when religions could be founded and their subsequent influences.

even so, i think that some of your justifications aren't really that accurate... how is islam branching off of code of laws, for example?

Read about sharia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia), on Wikipedia to see why. Particularly: "The authority of Sharia is drawn from two primary sources, as well as two secondary sources. The first major source is the specific guidance in the Qur'an, and the second source is the Sunnah, literally the 'Way', i.e. the way that Muhammad (the Prophet of Islam) lived his life."

It would seem to me that this is a distinguishing feature of the religion. Confucianism, on the other hand, is less about laws than a reverence for the writings of Confucius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism).

i also don't quite understand how christianity is necessarily created from monarchy.

According to the Wikipedia article on Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity): "A single basic church hierarchy did not establish itself until as late as the 4th century with its ascendancy as the state enforced religion under Constantine the Great who established it as the official religion of the Roman Empire under Theodosius I."

It was then that Christianity became an established major religion. The endorsement of a powerful monarch made it a major religion. I believe the 4th century would be considered Civ IV's Classical era.

the other thing which i've tried to pay attention to is the actual starting dates of the religions. in my original mod, it's possible to found hinduism and judaism at around 1500 BC, their approximate origins. taoism, buddhism, and confucianism all come at around 500 BC, and christianity and islam are later, around 500 AD (admittedly a little late for christianity, but it's still normally founded before islam due to the way the AI treats the technologies). these are far more accurate than the founding dates in the game. i don't know how your version will adversely affect these dates.

I based my dates not necessarily on the founding date of the religion, because it may have been considered a minor "cult" by the society of the time. When the religion became major shortly after being founded (Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism), I considered that the starting era for the game.

However, for Confucianism, Taoism, and Christianity, I also weighed the factor of when the religion became "major," or in the case of Taoism, when it began to be considered a religion (the Civilopedia discusses this).

Read about sharia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia), on Wikipedia to see why. Particularly: "The authority of Sharia is drawn from two primary sources, as well as two secondary sources. The first major source is the specific guidance in the Qur'an, and the second source is the Sunnah, literally the 'Way', i.e. the way that Muhammad (the Prophet of Islam) lived his life."

It would seem to me that this is a distinguishing feature of the religion. Confucianism, on the other hand, is less about laws than a reverence for the writings of Confucius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism).

in a sense, i buy this, because the two religions do have very much to do with codes of conduct and with confucius' scriptures, respectively.

however, you're still not acknowledging that all religions present in the game have their own "code of laws." while they may not be quite as pronounced as that of islam, they nonetheless are an important facet of the religion. in judaism and christianity, for example, you have the ten commandments, while in buddhism you have a general respect for life and others, the eightfold path, etc.


According to the Wikipedia article on Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity): "A single basic church hierarchy did not establish itself until as late as the 4th century with its ascendancy as the state enforced religion under Constantine the Great who established it as the official religion of the Roman Empire under Theodosius I."

It was then that Christianity became an established major religion. The endorsement of a powerful monarch made it a major religion. I believe the 4th century would be considered Civ IV's Classical era.

I based my dates not necessarily on the founding date of the religion, because it may have been considered a minor "cult" by the society of the time. When the religion became major shortly after being founded (Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism), I considered that the starting era for the game.

However, for Confucianism, Taoism, and Christianity, I also weighed the factor of when the religion became "major," or in the case of Taoism, when it began to be considered a religion (the Civilopedia discusses this).

i can't exactly agree with this course of action. the actual founding of the religion in the game has nothing to do with its actual spread; it could be very common for gandhi to discover hinduism, judaism, confucianism, and then christianity, only to discover that he has absolutely no need for it and ignore it.

while it's undoubtedly true that christianity never would have survived if it had not been adopted by constantine, this is reflected mostly, in my opinion, in that christianity could not have been spread without the assistance of a man in power like that. christianity, after all, is nothing more than a very large sect of judaism (or at least was after its initial founding), and it was made very clear by its widespread adoptors that orthodox jews were not the only ones who could become christian.

regarding taoism, i have no idea what the civilopedia is talking about discussing taoism's existence as a religion by worship of lao tzu. while it's undoubtedly true that some sects do worship lao tzu, it is certain that the fundamental taoist principle is that of following the tao, and essentially renouncing all sentience and philosophical thought.

however, you're still not acknowledging that all religions present in the game have their own "code of laws." while they may not be quite as pronounced as that of islam, they nonetheless are an important facet of the religion. in judaism and christianity, for example, you have the ten commandments, while in buddhism you have a general respect for life and others, the eightfold path, etc.

All religions have certain things in common. I am just making choices as to what I see is the most pronounced characteristic of the religion in relation to the game and the tech tree. You are doing the same, but your opinion is just different, right?

i can't exactly agree with this course of action. the actual founding of the religion in the game has nothing to do with its actual spread; it could be very common for gandhi to discover hinduism, judaism, confucianism, and then christianity, only to discover that he has absolutely no need for it and ignore it.

First of all, we have 8 religions in the game because they are considered "major" world religions. Otherwise, we could have hundreds. That is why I tried to focus on the time or characteristic that made a certain religion "major." Ignoring a religion your civ founded is just part of the game. Since you separated the religions into their own techs, you helped alleviate the problem, but it still happens. To rationalize, maybe Gandhi is aiming for Free Religion later in the game, where his multiple religions would be an asset to him.

while it's undoubtedly true that christianity never would have survived if it had not been adopted by constantine, this is reflected mostly, in my opinion, in that christianity could not have been spread without the assistance of a man in power like that. christianity, after all, is nothing more than a very large sect of judaism (or at least was after its initial founding), and it was made very clear by its widespread adoptors that orthodox jews were not the only ones who could become christian.

If you read the Wikipedia article I linked to, it is considered an offshoot of Mithraism and Osiris worship. But I think that's beside the point, unless we are going to mod each stage in development each religion goes through.

regarding taoism, i have no idea what the civilopedia is talking about discussing taoism's existence as a religion by worship of lao tzu. while it's undoubtedly true that some sects do worship lao tzu, it is certain that the fundamental taoist principle is that of following the tao, and essentially renouncing all sentience and philosophical thought.

The civilopedia says Taoism was initially not a religion at all but depending on your viewpoint, either a collection of folklore and superstition, or simply a philosophy. If so, I think it is not consistent if we consider this early Taoism to be the beginning of this "major" game religion. The reference to worship of a god makes it more clearly a religion and less of a philosophy or folklore. That's why I thought the religion should begin at that later point.

If we don't consider the beginning of the religion to be the time period when it became "major," but instead when it was first practiced by the smallest of cults, then what separates a "major" religion in the game from "paganism" or "none"?

regarding taoism, i have no idea what the civilopedia is talking about discussing taoism's existence as a religion by worship of lao tzu. while it's undoubtedly true that some sects do worship lao tzu, it is certain that the fundamental taoist principle is that of following the tao, and essentially renouncing all sentience and philosophical thought.

Civiliopedia may be wrong about Taoism being Lao Tzu, but it is certain that you're wrong about the "fundamental Taoist principle". Can we keep the discussion a little more abstract?

Ok I've started playing a game with this mod and I think this really good. :) Thanks.

The one thing that I really love about this mod is that you don't accidentally discover religions. Some techs have become the bane of my technological research because I don't want to discover that religion. I'm very specific about how I play my games.

And so, this is great for that respect. I can research what I want, when I want.

Although it may be a little unrealistic to say discover Christianity before Judaism for instance, this is Civ IV where we play "what if's" so it's ok. I love it. :)

A couple of changes.

I realized that Buddhism developed from Hinduism, Christianity from Judaism, and Islam from Christianity and Judaism (Search in Wikipedia if you don't believe me). Taoism and Confucianism don't have such a relationship (at least not until fairly recently with the "New Age" mysticism).

So, here are two tech trees that incorporate this and make the required religions prerequisites. However, since this mod gives you the religious tech even when another civ discovers it, you can still be the first to research Christianity if some other civilization has discovered Judaism. So this adding of requirements does not mean that one civilization must discover them all on their own. That is, unless I'm entirely mistaken as to how this mod works...

The first file, CIV4TechInfos2.1.zip, does not incorporate my controversial rearrangments and is in the technological order that the original mod-maker, Niffweed17, wanted.

The second file, CIV4TechInfos4.zip, adds these prerequisites to the reordered tech tree that I presented a few posts above, but Niffweed17 was not entirely in agreement with.

Either one can be used with this mod, and Niffweed17 has my permission to add whichever he prefers (or to keep the old one) to his mod.

well... i could incorporate that change, but i don't really see how it will change much from a gameplay perspective. in my mod, it seems that hinduism is almost always going to be founded before buddhism, and definitely judaism before christianity. the only meaningful gameplay change is that of forcing christianity before islam, which is meaningless anyway since the religions are entirely identical in terms of gameplay.

however, it does occur to me that there may be some use in modding christianity to come before islam, since the AI will normally research christianity first- so this puts the human and AI on a level playing field, where the human cannot steal islam first from the computer.

i'll probably put the other two in as well, but only in extenuating circumstances will they make any kind of difference.

It may not make a huge difference, but the whole tech tree is based (perhaps loosely) on what came first and what was required in order to discover what. In that sense, I think my change is meaningful. Bast's comment was what gave me the idea.