WARNING - Materials contained in this thread are considered TOP SECRET.

Let's keep this thread very concise and to the point. No spamming, no nonsense. Those that cannot abide by this will be given a seat as a galley slave in one of the Admiral's powerful vessels.

POTKISS has given us direction to plan for war with MIA. This thread shall not debate the pros and cons of such a war. This thread shall plan on how to prosecute such a war if the civilian authorities deem such a war to be in out best interests.

Limitations that need to be taken into considerations:
1. No roads through the jungle and swamps.
2. Little intel on the location of MIA resources. We do know that they have not hooked up iron or horses as of turn 73.

Evaluation of enemy forces:
1. Hoplites – say no more.
2. We now have a “strong” military compared to MIA. So with six warriors, three GS and two curraghs, they have something less than that.
3. We presently have three GS with which to prosecute the war with another three being built at this time.

Evaluations/research needed:
1. On average, what type of losses can we expect in GS v. Hoplite battles. This will be critical in planning how many units to send south on a campaign. We’ll need some probability experts on this.
2. Given the symmetrical nature of the world, where are the most likely locations to MIA resources. Fog gazers?
3. Flip risk of keeping cities. More probability experts.
4. How far will our roads be through the jungle by the start of the war. This will be critical for resupply/reinforcements. The nearest MIA city is seven turns from the end of our road network at this time. Bean Counters, Inc.
5. Possible MIA counter-attack strategies. Critical for homeland defense.
6. And of course our strategy. I would like three viable options here.

Edit - After studying the game, I see MIA iron east of Athens.

WooOOOOoooOoOT!!!!11!1!!!onehundredeleven!!1!!!!

This is getting exciting. I'll shut up now ;).

EDIT::: Useful Content follows.

Offa's city capture calculator (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=104677)is awesome for establishing odds of a stack taking a city.

The road will be done at a rate of 1-tile per turn. Republic in 10 turns. So this is our time limit correct?

Here is our known or assumed intel:
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/4431/greekintel9im.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Yellow dots are deduced city locations
Yellow circles are probable city locations.


@ Tubby - POTKISS has given us 12 turns as our earliest launch date.

Here is a first look at a war plan preposition:
http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/460/greekwari8fi.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The light blue are some scout paths. I have requested two horsemen be built out of barracks-less cities.

The red dots are proposed rally points for a blitzkrieg approach.

Initial objectives will be resource denial and road cutting. Razing out lying cities will deny intel on our troop movements and hurt their economy.

I seem to recall from one of the transcripts of diplo with MIA that they are reserving at least 2 goody huts in the hope of getting techs. Is there any way we could work in an, um, accidental popping? Perhaps the scouting horses could make a detour on their way home?

GS vs Hoplit issue:

They seem to all be in 1-6 towns, with a few possible 6-12 cities. Several are hills though, and Athens may be a hill city.

Assuming they have 1 hoplite in a hill city:
1 GS: 20%
2 GS: 55%
3 GS: 77%
4 GS: 90%

Assuming they have 2 hoplites in a hill city:
3 GS: 35%
4 GS: 55%
5 GS: 70%
6 GS: 85%

Considering the possible inconveniences of terrain, their offensive unit baits, etc. I suggest we go for 2 stacks of 8-10 GS, to be on the safe side and be ready to respond to threats the throw at us. Keeping the stacks full of GS and not bringing slow units make a much more expensive attack team (losses taken are all GS), but a faster and more mobile, making ducks and runs possible.

Making that 2 stacks of 6-8 GS with 4-5 cats each is also good, but slower. If we add catapults to our efforts, and if they (hoplites) are not all veterans, we could get up to 60% capture of a 2-hoplites hill town, with only 4 GS.
In this case, I would also recommend a few spears, reg or vet, to ensure a bit of flexibility between the GS stack and the catapult team. Considering we don't have 1000 years to prepare, I recommend this one, where losses will be more expendable.

On flips:

I don't know the full maths of flips, but culture at this point is nil. The only thing with a remote chance of flip to worry about is capturing Athens or ring 1 cities with Athens still in place.

On current plan:

I like the scouting paths and GH ideas. As for the actual stacks, I'd personnally send them right for the money and let the reinforcement troops get rid of outlying cities. 1st targets upon declaration would be, to me, Look Here and Gorin (or even the town SE of it). This should split their forces and unbalance them overall.

Concur, the intel from scouting horses is crucial.

We can also use embassy investigations of visible cities to unveil the map a little further, particularly when we get a look at the twon SE of Gorin.

Bede - excellent point on investigations.

B-e-F - Thank you for the thorough analysis. Given this data, I think the prepositioning blitzkieg idea is flawed. I am leaning towards one large stack with a side venture to deny resources.

Harriet - good point on the huts. I will work it into the plan.

Bede's point is valid about the embassy investigations. We'll need to drop to zero research for a few turns pre attack to get the gold for the investigations. What's it cost to investigate a city 40 dubloons more or less?

I have a hypothetical question - if there is one GS, three spears and 5 cats in a stack, which one is visible?

so what happens if we send a stack for the hoplites to swarm to down the middle, one to raid the iron to the east and the pillaging red beards to southwest?

To maintain our interior lines and be ready for any suprises that MIA throws our way, we need a communication road between Senility and Effing. Our guys go places twice as fast.

The KISS plan on the other hand, is to dump a SoD into Effing and just take the cities in order on a path towards Athens with cats and GS.

CNO requests intelligence update on the opponents. is there any to really worry about?

one note that I just thought of.... Catapults can't go through Jungle.

Maybe some of the core workers can come down to help with that effort?

Evaluations/research needed:
5. Possible MIA counter-attack strategies. Critical for homeland defense.
6. And of course our strategy. I would like three viable options here.
The strategy I've thought of would be called "Operation Trojan Horse".

The strategy would be to have Donut get some boats in the MIA area to distract them. We could offer to do the same for Donut with TNT. Even landing some MW's on the outskirts to create a diversion. In the meantime, we are using our military campaigners plans of attack.

We could also package a deal for poly, (since MIA will be researching this as well) and HBR (now so we can get horses out) in exchange for republic and map making. We would be the first to the MA if this happens since we'd be researching construction at that point.

It could also help with any counterattack MIA would consider. The cats we build would stay home since they'll be hard to protect and are the best way to combat a group of hops by bombarding their defenses.

All of this is contingent on getting Donut to agree.

Keep it simple people

Just tell nuts to keep quiet (at the right time) and then go pound MIA with cats and GS. Bring enough workers to road thru the jungle. Tell FE it's the highway to heaven that we're building so we can trade more lux.

Trojan Horse won't work until galleys are available. If Map Making will be available soon, I think it is a very viable option.

I like the Admiral's single stack moving south from EWR to Athens. Most of those cities will autoraze. Catapults will not be an option, they will slow us down and we won't be able to get them through the jungle.

A third option could be spliting our forces to rendezvous at Athens. Diagrams to follow.

I would spend the worker turns to cut roads through the jungle to get the cats down there. Once we are out of the woods they won't slow us down any more than holding in place to heal up the wounded. It appears that MIA doid a real fine job of spotting their towns a single road move apart so the attack sewquence should go pretty quick and having 1/2 or more of the stack healthy enough to roll right on is worth the loss of a move with the Gallics. And having a defensive shot against an attacking archer is almost like having a three point defender in the stack.

The Gallic speed really comes into play when you can hit an advancing counter attack then retreat into the stack, rather than in a blitz attempt.

The strategy I've thought of would be called "Operation Trojan Horse".

The strategy would be to have Donut get some boats in the MIA area to distract them. We could offer to do the same for Donut with TNT. Even landing some MW's on the outskirts to create a diversion. In the meantime, we are using our military campaigners plans of attack.



IMHO, don't tell anybody anything until the war actually started.

Considering the possible inconveniences of terrain, their offensive unit baits, etc. I suggest we go for 2 stacks of 8-10 GS, to be on the safe side and be ready to respond to threats the throw at us. Keeping the stacks full of GS and not bringing slow units make a much more expensive attack team (losses taken are all GS), but a faster and more mobile, making ducks and runs possible.

imho, the more units the better. 1 stack of 16-20 gs's would be better than 2 8-10 GS's. An overwhelming SoD is best against a human. If fact, I would argue for 1.5x that many GS's (24-30), but I'm not sure we can build that many quickly since it seems we want to have 3 settler pumps as well. However, with that number, we can forget about the cats. Speed kills, and the GS has it so let's use it.

I'm leaning towards one large stack (around 12, or so) starting from Effing and going straight towards Athens. Woodridge -> Gorin -> Look Here -> yellow dot -> Athens.

They're all size 1 or 2 (except possibly the dot), and since they have even fewer units than us, I would bet most or all have only 1 or 2 defenders, but some may even have none (workers don't count towards strength right? Like we're strong to them, not because of our workers?).

If we can hit them fast enough, they won't have time to reinforce with Hoplites. I feel cats would slow the main stack down too much. The smaller groups on the outskirts could use cats, then all come together at Athens if it's not taken already, and needs reinforcements.

I suggest that the next person to play the turn should right click on each visible city to see what the terrain is under them.

Another option is to leave all cats back home for the inevitable counterattack (by possibly all 3 other teams...).

@ IroP (and whoever else cares),

Military Strength is Units Strength (player 1) = Hitpoints * (1.5* AttackPoints + 1 * DefensePoints ) 0.175 * Bombard Points
Army Strength (player 1) = Sigma(1-n) Unit Strength (player 1) = add up all of the Individual units' strength

If ArmyStrenght(player 1) > (1.2) * ArmyStrength (player2) then Player 1 is rated strong
If ArmyStrength (player 1) < (0.8)* ArmyStrength (player2) then Player 1 is rated weak


I'll add the tile check to the todo unless I get a chance to grab it then I'll do it myself :D. But this could be done in any of the existing saves. So I guess I can do this tonight maybe tomorrow then report back.

EDIT::: Got this out of the 74 save that we sent to the Nuts:

Flaxon Musk - grassland
Woodridge - Desert
Gorin - Hills
--> Look Here <-- - Hills
Virtuoso - Grassland
Athens - Hills

The town to the east of Athens slightly poking out of the fog is most likely grassland using the flipped mirror theory.

EDIT:EDIT:: I did some calcs with the town capture calc from Offa and with 2 vet hopiltes in a town on grassland, 80% of the time, 5 vet GS will take the city. If the town is on a hill, 6 GS = ~75% and 7 GS = 85%. What percentage are we looking for here? 99%, 90% or is 75% good enough?

Thanks, Tubby! So, since workers have 0 A/D, they don't add anything to strength. Good.

I noticed in the Geeks & Numbers thread that MIA have a size 6 city called Heron. That's obviously right next to Athens, but which dot could it be? :hmm:

EDIT: Whoa, I didn't even see Virtuoso! :blush: Hmm, at least it's on a grassland. But 3 cities are on hills...maybe heading straight for Athens wouldn't be such a good idea...or we could bring more GSs or cats.

For a war strategy I'm thinking to use part of what Bugs had planned coming in from a far side with about 9 GS with 2 horses to scout to make sure we are not discovered. (Keep GS out of view). this will take some time due to the jungle being 1 tile per move. while those are moving silently along the border we build 5-7 more GS with 2 spears to stage the initial attack right up the middle. This will get MIA to send hoplites running to the north. Keep secret GS out of sight until hoplites can get to the north. Once the hops get there put our GS that have razed perhaps 2 small outlier towns on a mountain fortified with the spears. While MIA runs to the norht we slide in and take out 2 core cities down ripping his production. When he reponds back bringing troops back to the south we will have built another 4-5 GS to send down that can team with the fortified GS and take out his remaining core. The key would be keeping the main force from discovery.

Of course, lux and resourse denial will have to figured in. I am also a big fan of getting them into anarchy prior to the attack. He will have no production and a partially wasted GA.

We still have a week or two to plot this and it would be nice to get the horses out to scout now to break fog. I'm even thinking a ROP now to a) alleviate fears that we are being aggressive and b) use MIA roads to break fog. This is a 20 turn commitment but it may take 20 before we are fully mobilized. During this ROP we can position some units on the lux road to hamper MIA's ability to scout us.

If we're thinking about a larger stack (roughly 20, give or take but preferably give) - which I endorse fully, we'll have time to scout, but we will have to forget about the anarchic GA.

If we want to push them into an anarchic GA, we could start a half-phony war (in 10-12 turns with republic coming in), trigger both GA's as soon as they revolt (we wasting 1 good turn of GA isn't much compared to their 4-7) and relax a bit while we gather more troops.

I don't think that "phony" wars are allowed. So it looks like we'll have to wait a bit.

well, can we reduce the number of settler pumps from 3 to 1? that will get 2 more high spt cities producing GS's, which would help.

reduce the number of settler pumps to one

give MIA a nice target with 2 GS, 2 spears or so and lots of cats to attack as it slowly makes its way thru the jungle with workers.

in the meantime the real SoD does an end run

Here is Option I:
http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/1149/greekoptioni1pv.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Obviously, as with most war plans, this will be worthless after turn 1 of war. The idea is to strike directly at the heart of MIA's production and economy.

Mostly likely Gorin and Woodridge will autoraze. If they do not, we'll keep them. As we march on the capitol, we will want to use as much natural cover as possible, hills, forests, etc. We would place our SOD (or most of it) on the red dot, the turn prior to declaring war.

Advantages:
1. Does not split our forces. (Sun-Tsu)
2. Focuses overwhelming force where the enemy is weakest (Clauswitz)

Disadvantages
1. Does not provide for multiple first strikes while the enemy is unprepared. (Sun-Tsu)

2. Does not deceive the enemy (Sun-Tsu)

Here is Option II:
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1414/greekioptionii9oe.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

This is essentially what Slinger talked about.

Phase one the three forces preposition at the solid dots (red, blue and yellow) Blue and yellow forces must be as stealthy as possible, hugging the coastline. All three forces should arrive at their rally points on the same turn.

At the start of the war, the diversion force (Red), probably about five GS would raze Woodridge, then head to green dot to menace MIA and "demonstrate" in front of their forces.

Meanwhile, two main attack forces (Blue and Yellow with approximately 10 units each) would start marching towards Athens razing anything they see. Essentially the classic double flank envelopment of Cannae.

A variation (IIA) would be only one main force. Essentially the classic flanking maneuver used by Lee and Jackson at Chancellorsville. if we were to do this I would prefer using Blue.

Advantages:
1. deceives the enemy
2. Blue force will be able to provide support for Red force if Red force is in trouble.
3. Multiple attack vectors will provide defensive nightmare to MIA war planners.
4. By delaying Blue and Yellow attacks, enemy will probably commit too many forces to Red.

Disadvantages
1. Split forces
2. Yellow is isolated and would not have any support from other forces.
3. Would take many more turns to set up. Premature detection of our forces could spell disaster and we would lose the element of surprise.

I'm a fan of plan 2, esp. for the following:
3. Multiple attack vectors will provide defensive nightmare to MIA war planners.
4. By delaying Blue and Yellow attacks, enemy will probably commit too many forces to Red. In pvp, you can't always overwhelm directly, but you can certainly deceive, and it works just as good.

I do think, however, that razing everything that stands should be contingent on the hoplites/terrain present. We need to fight as many hoplites as possible in grassland locations and try to leave them be on hill locations whenever it is feasible. That way we force them out somewhat. If we manage to play cat and mouse with their hoplites, they're all dead already. Otherwise it won't be cheap.

In Hoplite war we can not take out a resourse to deny. They have multiple cities on hills. Taking out production during a anarchy GA is obviously optimal. Production is in th core center. They are currently on settler production, I feel sorry for them but not that sorry, again the key is horses to scout. If we can't keep our force hidden, even if we have to back up, it blows our cover. This plan involves emplying a lot of GS going away from the roads which is risky if MIA becomes average to us or more. Right now is the time to plan. We are above and growing, BTW i still advocate the pyramids though Whomp was originally right about a GL getting it for us.

I like the blue line but for the fact we have no intel on it, so I wouldsuggest coming down the lux road and veering off. We have enough units there to determine if they can 'see' us moving. Somelowly jorses on a mission to bust fog can help this efffort.

I am a midget in this thread, but insomnia spurs me to make a tactical offering.

The Red Force: 2 Spears 4 GS 4 Catapults
The Yellow Force: 4-6 GS 4 catapults
The Blue Force: 8 GS

(these forces would be minimum)

My thought is this...

Send the Red Force to use the mountain for defense while visibly threatening MIA.

The Blue Force, consisting soley of GS could move quickly and either create bloody havoc in the production base of MIA, keep the iron from getting hooked up and take a city if it seemed practical.

The Yellow Force could take their spice city becuase it pleases me, and then reinforce the Red Force and start a catapult-heavy steam roller (or divert to the blue if that seems wise).

I think we can afford to bybass Woodridge and Gorin, they won't be producing much. Strike toward their industrial heart and take Woodridge/Gorin at leasure or for peace.

I think that the Red and Yellow forces should strike/appear at the same time, with the blue force comming on the scene a few turns later. Let the Greeks commit to a northern defense and then hit them with the right hook.

I would also want some GS in our core for reaction force, including two in Effing Whomping Rower to be safe.

Unfortunately we cannot get a horseman yet. We are still lacking HBR. MIA has alreasy said that they won't send any more techs until REpublic comes in. So the curraph that's headed down the East coast will have to suffice unless a GS is to be used.

I'm liking Bugs' second plan and Kickbooti's.

I would prefer two flanking stacks, that way, if one is discovered, the other could hopefully still succeed.

I think we can afford to bybass Woodridge and Gorin, they won't be producing much. Strike toward their industrial heart and take Woodridge/Gorin at leasure or for peace.
This is against a human. Once the war starts, it will not stop till one of us is dead. They will not give us anything for peace, unless they are really stupid. They'll give stuff to the other teams (if they can), but they'll never give us anything.

All this plans are nice, but I urge the team to seriously consider our production numbers. How many units required? how many units per turn can we supply as reinforcements? we will need a lot of reinforcements! imho, if we're going to split the forces, we still need 15 to 20 units in each main "arrow". once the war starts, MIA will be fighting for thier lives, and will probably (if they're smart) turn off research to rush units. They may also be able to produce MDI's (and upgrade any swords). This will be a very hard fight.

I like Commander Bugs second plan. Athens will be weakly defended, and if we capture it they're totally crippled.

I doubt those two outlying cities will have hoplites, or any defense at all. A small stack of 2 GS could take each, while a main force of 10-15 could raid Athens.

We must be aware of the Trojan horse, do not sign peace until they're dead.

About combat chances, each city having a hoplite is unlikely, and two is even more unlikely.

Feasability wise, TNT seems the better target IMO. In fact, it seems Donut would prefer we don't join in so they can feast. Can we consider that alternative too? We must have overwhelming numbers in either case. Let's make sure of success.

"In a man to man fight the winner is the one who puts an extra round in his magazine"
-Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

"A pint of sweat will save a gallon of blood."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

I will start a TNT invasion plan. How far are we from getting galleys? How many galleys can we build in 20 turns? Need some builder input here.

19. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when usiasng our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.

18. All warfare is based on deception.

20. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, anKey is sneakd crush him.

I am still thinking MIA.

I have read Whomps talks and a TNT invasion would be nice,(Triumph the insult comic dog says "to poop on")

If we had boats I might reconsider. We don't. Our only war optiGS doing the horsieon , if we plan one though Hops are tough. I will ake Hoplight redirection. As an option, have a GS do the horsie work.

We still have chariots, which are more credible, and equally fast, to do a scouting job.

Chariots can't traversre jungle... if that's fine then we can make one in no time. But I see no need to make a chariot that is stuck on our side of the jungle

I'm against attacking TNT because a galley per 2 GS seems inefficient.

About Bugs plan two, if a greek warrior or something sees us, our plan is ruined. Just a stack of 10 GS leisurely walking the dog around? They'd build up hoplites like crazy and we would lose.

If we were to launch an attack on the other continent, we would shuttle over units across the strait. We would only need about two or three galleys.

But moving them would take time, and they could be noticed.

So would moving our huge stack of GS next to Athens. That's the biggest risk. it's a bigger risk with MIA, because they can build up cheap hoplites like mad and we've made a mortal enemy whom we can't destroy. TNT OTOH can build lots of spears, but our GS can easily overrun them. Or they might build immortals. That's a danger as well.

If MIA has no offensive power we can pillage and watch them bleed. Hoppies are poor attackers.

That's true, just they will still be alive :undecided: . Perhaps we can send scouts that are innocent looking (warrior/worker) to see if the coast is clear?

This is very similar to Bugs plan II, changes is once we have the attack force for taking athens underway, all the reinforcements line up by Flaxon Musk and woodridge, and continue on to destroy MIA. The different colors are the different forces. Whilst it does go against Sun Tzu in splitting our forces, we also force them to. A big GS stack versus a lot of hoplites is worse than a small GS force against a warrior MP or something.

Problem is if our stack is seen, we're forced to just pillage them then take our bigger share of the continent with a mortal enemy hiding in our closet with a dagger.

Our decision is war v. MIA or someone else. make this decision first. FE just grovelled about their last trade. Question 1A is do we believe him? Question 2A is why is he grovelling? No military?

Why answer it first? If we decide war is our best option, we'll have a plan ready.

good point. i just want us to be clear on whom we're going to kill

Perhaps we should start a war plan if we so desire to attack TNT?

Question 1A is do we believe him? Question 2A is why is he grovelling? No military? A 1A: 50/50. A 2A: Because I told him to.

we need to decide whom to attack. all else flows from that. I have sick twisted litlle plans for both continents, but not at the same time

After coming back and reading the conversation with Daghie and Fe I want MIA dead. It's unfortunate that Fe can't see we gave them all the trading opportunities they've produced while our hands are tied. I say we proceed with this plan when our stack is of sufficient capability.

Concur with Whomp, but which plan do you mean? Bugs I, Bugs II, or my slight variation of Bugs II .

We'll wait until we have further intel. Our naval assets should be providing that soon. We need to move all available military to EWR.

Does "all available" mean MP? I'm assuming not. Once republic gets online the GS's should be able to move down there within 3 turns. Is that quick enough or do we want to move them now?

btw, I started feeling out D'nut for a truce over there for TNT-D'nut-Kiss dogpile on MIA. TNT is apparently demanding that D'nut give them Gold, gpt, technology, and workers for peace. so obviously they aren't accepting the terms.

There's been some diplo activity. I think we need to plan for a dogpile on us. Someone go recruit Handy.

There's been some diplo activity. I think we need to plan for a dogpile on us. Someone go recruit Handy.
:lol: Not a bad idea, he's the :king: of warmongering. Except he's the master of toying with AI's tactical weaknesses, I don't know how he'd do against humans.

I'll e-mail him tomorrow. Who should I have him contact, ... Whomp?

Handy would love this, we should have thought of him long ago.

Tubby, yes, all available wxcludes MP since they really aren't available at this time.

I think a dogpile is a possibility. I hope our able diplomats can keep it down to two.

So if a dogpile is a possibility, how many units do we keep in our homeland for defense? I think we should set up a zone defense on either coast. Perhaps 3 or 4 GS for landings. Use the navy to spot invasion fleets before they reach our shores.

With D'nut & TNT in an eternal war, I doubt that they are going to waste resources to send an overwhelming force by boats (more wasted resources) to try to capture cities that they will have a hard time defending. We are ~12 turns from TNT and ~ 20 turns from D'nut. I think that 3-4 GS are enough for homeland defense. Spaced appropriately, they could cover any landing that they or MIA could make.

D'nut seems to have their hands full right now and really don't want to start anything with MIA (or presumably us). According to Nobody, they have had some setbacks of late.

I agree with Bugs on the Zone defense. I think mini-stacks of 4 positioned around the coast would be good.

Would it be wise to move the palace off the coast? I don't know how long it would take, but it would centralize our corruption zone and give some measure of protection from a naval assault. It would delay things however...

I don't have Civ III loaded on this computer, I can't do the calculations.

@Kickbooti: I think the delay would be too much at the moment... we have a limited timeframe within which we can strike. But it would certainly be worth considering when we own the continent :D, both for defensive as well as corruption- reduction purposes.

Any chance of getting galleys before we strike? If so, we might want to load some spears onto galleys to take out their luxes. We would also need to galleys to get a chance of sinking a sneaky counterattack of theirs.

If we do have a shot at galleys, let's build a harbor and a few curraghs.

Notthefullshilling is dedicated to the navy. The problem is that it is limited to 2 pop do to most of the tiles being hogged by Ignoramus. Our curraph on the east coast has the same attack and defense of a galley and can serve as a lookout once things start rolling. By the time that we start a war the other curraph should be up by the furry straight and can serve the same purpose on the western shores.

I would agree with a prior statement that a dogpile initiated by MIA would just cost them a bundle for little to no support. TNT and Nuts are at war and can't really spare the units. I doubt if they have built any sea going vessels since the initial scouting vessels. MIA would be flushing more money. I would certainly post up a curraugh on our western shore to spot an incoming invasion. Besides that I would leave maybe 2 GS behind and then cash rush any being built if an invasion appears imminent. I would still concentrate on the MIA plan, don't get overly distracted.

imho, war will require both military and diplomacy. the best way to ensure no invasions on the coast is to sign peace deals with Donut and TNT that are long enough to ensure we have enough time to take down MIA.

Attacking MIA and trying to defend our coasts from invasions will be extremely difficult, if not impossible. mini-stacks of 4GS's is a good idea, but they will be no match for a large landing force (10+ units) from another team. if we do get dogpiled, our only option will be to go 100% military, and then we'll get left behind research-wise and lose.

one enemy at a time is prefered. getting dogpiled by 3 humans = 100% lost game

Grahamiam - How is the other continent going to attack us? they are in the middle of a jungle war 20+ turns from moving to the coasts. They have little sea power due to making land units and will probably continue to do so. Unless they sign peace I would have minimal worry. MIA may certainly be offering anything they can to get the other continent on their side as insurance that they themselves won't get attacked but I don't see NUTS or TNT actually committing any sizable force. BY the time they would get around to being able to launch anything of note we should have MIA under wraps as a docile science vassal and spreading more of our color out.

Grahamiam is right. Both Donut and TNT may see war on this island as an opportunity to catch up by settling on a peace agreement.

Donuts is on board for protective peace agreement (if MIA were to attack them or TNT attacked us) so it simply needs to be put in place. Right now they are already concerned about the MIA galleys that are in their waters.

We should email TNT that we may have boats soon and we're willing to avoid using them if they will agree to official peace terms.

@barbslinger: if we're sure that they can't do anything within the timeframe that it will take us to conquer MIA, then that's as good as a peace treaty. The other continent being at war is definitely good for us, but they may come to thier senses as we expand into MIA (assuming we're successful).

Maybe it's best to keep them at war with each other, by supporting one vs the other. That will also ensure that we won't get dogpiled :)

edit: and it may help keep the tech pace down, allowing our GS's to be relevant longer

BY the time they would get around to being able to launch anything of note we should have MIA under wraps as a docile science vassal and spreading more of our color out.Sorry, I didn't see this till now. Expecting them to play like an AI is not realistic. Why the hell would they want to put time into a game that they know they're gonna lose? They will fight to the death, and will not share any techs with us for peace.

edit: and it may help keep the tech pace down, allowing our GS's to be relevant longer Seems reasonable, and to me that means not selling republic overseas.

I agree that they wouldn'tbe a sub-servient civ to us. But I also don't see that the other teams could even get here. MIA is the ONLY civ with MapMaking. So that means that they would have to build/upgrade galleys and then have units ready to load up and ship to our shores.

Once they get MM then we can start worrying. Right now I think that Whomp is right that we sign peace/ protection pact with the Nuts. Then we can attack MIA and only have to worry about TNT. But that won't even be too much of a concern because we can convince D'nuts to stay at war and help out where we can.

Agree with the fact that diplomacy will be a big factor, if not the biggest. Signing an alliance, threatening, or bribing are ok options.

sounds like the consensus is an attack on MIA. I'd really like to see a plan that puts a road to the front so we can bring cats. I'd also like to see our road network built up a bit so our interior lines can send defenders to any hotspots. BTW, I'm speaking FE about non-civ now and he's being all sweetness and light. HMM?

Disagree with cats. They slow the GS down, making their speed obselete. Any MIA attackers will most likely be non existant if they choose to exist, they will be low in numbers and not require a catapult stack, our gallic swordsmen will do a great job against archers and stuff.

Gotta have cats. GS are too expensive to do a 'Somme' against Hops.

Archers? Am I wrong in thinking that MIA will go for horsemen as offense? They have HBR and horsies hooked up IIRC.

No cats for offense right now or in the near future. If this attack will happen in the next 20 turns. We will only have ~ 8-10 GS when we get to republic. We'll need all of our productive cities to be building GS.

Also jungle won't allow cats without putting our workers at risk roading through the thick stuff. IMO they can be better used improving tiles or added to the cities to get them to at least 7 pop.

Also jungle won't allow cats without putting our workers at risk roading through the thick stuff. IMO they can be better used improving tiles or added to the cities to get them to at least 7 pop.

Have we given up on 6 workers or so doing the jungle road?

Have we given up on 6 workers or so doing the jungle road?
I would think we will be roading until a couple turns after declaration. I would also put a spear on the road to stop/stall any counter-offensive.

AFAIK, the workers were just to hook up the luxuries. After that I was hoping that most of them could move back to the homeland. Not too long from now, MIA will be in the MA. (all they have is Construction left) After that there will be a barb uprising. not good for workers even with an escort.

I would think we will be roading until a couple turns after declaration. I would also put a spear on the road to stop/stall any counter-offensive.I wouldn't keep workers there much after declaration. Get them home and join to cities so they get 10 or 13/14 production ASAP. That way we won't even need that spearman on the road. :)

I would agree with Barb about continuing the road and throwing up a spear.

Which leads me to a question - POTKISS is the uber-Idiot to whom we all defer; AK is the Idiot of all things wet - his word is law. Do we need a Idiot Cheif of Head-bashing? Someone who, in conjuction with POTKISS and Admiral AK form the ultimate triumverate to make decisions during war or the run up to war?

It would make for a unified chain of command.

Ahhh Booti this is where the team upgrades to grumpy old man and Slinger level. This includes Slinger, Bugs, Goz, Graham and Bede.

I would say Sir Bugsy of GOM and Chief "'Slinger of heads" would make very good joint chiefs. If Bugs were to add Handy to the team then all bets are off. :mischief:

Go with Bugs and slinger, there's not gonna be any naval action.

A war is not 5 turns. I'm in total agreement that the initial wave should be exclusive GS. But what's to prevent a few cats and a spear as follow on forces?

This thread is supposed to be for war plans.

FYI - Bede, G-man, and 'slinger have all played as Grumpies.

I got a brainstorming idea that just might work (I lack diplo experiance, am ready for criticism by more experianced).

We declare on TNT, sign in nuts. MIA, suspecting we're busy will feel safe and revolt prior to our gifting republic to them. Our stack right next to Athens will attack, and MIA won't last long. We then have 2 on one against TNT, and either we could invade or just wait for the alliance to expire. DNUTS wouldn't attack us because they're more interested in TNT.

Before we send rep to MIA they have nothing to revolt to. I think it is best to stick with the idea of hitting MIA unexpectedly and when we have enough strength to do a short-ish war.

I am thinking a lot depends on if we are taking the agreement as broken. If it is I suggest this:

Plant a city here near the crossroads to stop any counter. A couple spears should do the trick.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/cool1150.JPG

We begin a 'visible' assembly of 3-6 GS after the next 6 turns. The current GS assemble to the East with a lead GS to verify the SOD is not discovered. We can move the SOD from any warrior, archer, horse to avoid detection. After we declare, we move the GS into north territory and take a couple cities. That will prompt MIA to move any / all hops to northern front. We slide in the back door and the moves work out from there.

If MIA is smart and if they know our timeline to finish Republic they could go into anarchy in anticipation, then have one or even no turns of anarchy after acquring the tech and the window of anarchic vulnerability closes for us.

What I am getting at is that advantage needs to be left out of our war planning. And we need to consider the impact on their productivity if we and they hit a Golden Age together.

Before we send rep to MIA they have nothing to revolt to.

I made a mistake, I meant after we give republic to them, I misused the word prior :blush: .

Are we planning on razing the small, northern MIA cities or using them as forward positions?

I don't know, I would just send newly built troops to those towns to kill them.

If MIA responds to the tech request as we plan/hope then war is coming QUICKLY.

I know that there are lot of plans, but it seems that many of them envision an optimal condition that allows for both SoD AND surprise. It looks like if we are going to seize surprise, we won't have time for an SoD.

So, here is a proposal for war on the cheap. It would require 5-6 GS and 2 scouting units (preferably spearmen or GS), plus a few optional units.

Attack Plan "Give us Polly you Cracker"

Assumptions
War is coming FAST. We don't have time for a SoD yet the optimal time to strike is during MIA's period of anarchy.

Overview
This plan attempts four things
1) Capture of Woodridge as a forward opperation center.
2) Placement of Scouts along the central and eastern threat axis to provide wanring of MIA counterstrike and partial resource denial (eastern iron).
3) Subsequent attack on Look Here with the intent of destroying it. If workers were to be added to that city, it could be a military production nightmare.
4) Provie a 'beach-head' for future operations against the Chislers.

Green Force
Makeup - 1 GS (min)
Time frame - requires 9-10 turns from launch at Senelityville
Goal would be to serve as an early warning system along the eastern threat axis.

The path is primarily through jungle, so there is little need for the GS's speed. There is good defensive terrain so a spearmen could be expected to survive, and the unit could move east-west, back and forth on this defensive terrain to ensure no MIA units sneak past.

IF more than the minimum forces were allocated for Team Green, some pillaging/forward scouting could be effected - especially with a GS or two.

Blue Force
Makeup - 1 Spear (optional 1 Warrior)
Time Frame - 10 turns if launched from dyes east of EWR.
Goal would be to serve as an early warning system along the central threat axis.

The path is through jungle and moutnain so a spearman would be prefeable.

Two spearmen would be ideal, in my opinion to make the overwatch position north of Look Here as secure as possible.

Option - sending a warior with Blue force is a gamble, but IF Look Here is defended by a Hopilite, we could force MIA's Golden Age at the time most adventageous to us.

Red Force
Makeup - 6 GS (optional 1 Warior)
Time Frame - Can attack three turns from leaveing EWR
Goal - to capture Woodridge as a forward base of operations.

IF Woodrige is taken intact, workers should expedite a road and its defenses should be made strong (preferably building a wall).

If Woodridge is taken, once the city is secure such forces as seems prudent plus reinforcements that have come from the north should link up in the vicinity of Blue Force and seek to raze Look Here to deny a potential production powerhouse.

If Woodridge is razed then a blocking/scouting force should be left between the West coast and Blue Force and the remainder of Force Red should examine either further action against Gorin, Look Here, or aggressive pilaging while another SoD is assembled to press the conflict.

Bottom Line We had better move QUICKLY if we are going to attack. I don't have access to my Civ III machine for awhile, so I don't know how long we have to giving Republic, but if anything like this plan is going to be effected, the scouts need to head out NOW!

Also, somenoe should do the production number crunching and see how many GS we can have quickly, how fast they can get to their launch point (whatever it may be) and how quickly follow on units can be in theater.

Sincerely,

Otto von Kickbooti

If MIA is smart and if they know our timeline to finish Republic they could go into anarchy in anticipation, then have one or even no turns of anarchy after acquring the tech and the window of anarchic vulnerability closes for us.
We should keep a close eye on f3 the forthcoming turns. It will show if they do a pre-revolt.

I didn't think you could pre revolt without an additional government option like monarchy.

I know some of this is relative to war but Bugs would prefer to keep this thread to war strategy so let's move MIA discussions to the MIA thread.

@ bugsy - I may not be a complete idiot, but I played 2 grumpy games. ;)

Tubs has analysis somewhere of the relative military strengths. we're ahead.

We're not sacking Troy here. By the time MIA can throw togethor a threat, we'll have debated the proper response and be lined up to respond

Sorry Admiral, didn't know you were a grump as well. We have a well represented club of grumpies here.

BTW - Handy has too much RL to join.

How about starting some spears to cover the GS's from showing? If we go with slingers suggestion we're about to hit MIA in 8ish turns (3 for Rep + Greek anarchy). We might wait a bit longer but since we'll be reluctant to sign any peace their suspicion will raise for every turn and the surprise effect will diminish.
My humble suggestion is that we attack soon after they've gone republic. They have poor offense (my guess) so they won't counter but go defense. If our attack can accomplish some cities razed/captured plus we pillage everything we can, we can wait for them to bleed some turns while we build up more units.
Side note: would it be possible to just pillage /and or attacking non-hoplites to prevent them from going GA? Would they try attacking with hoppies? If we could find one warrior with a GS, we could have a GA and build troops until we're strong enough to whack 'em swiftly even if they hit GA and squirt defenders. Just a random thought.

Where should our newly built troops rally to? By Effing Whomping Rower?

EWR should be the rally point. There is no sense hiding GSs under a spear since you can right click on a stack out of a city and find out what's in it.

I would bet that hoplites will be all that MIA has in its cities. They are planning the peaceful route and probably have built nothing but hops.

If we are attacking in eightish turns, we won't have time for a deception. We'll just have to charge straight ahead.

Charging straight ahead sounds good. But we should be careful, those hoplites could really put a dent in our army, we should have a good plan that anticipates their hoplite moves.

How many GS do we have now?

Remember hoplites only have attack strength 1. The only moves they are going to make are reinforcements from city to city. I doubt they will go on the offensive with hops. Only if they have swords.

I know, I was saying if we attack city A while ready to attack city C (hiding our stack), city B could reinforce A, then we have C and B quickly.

They're not AI, so even though I don't have any experience with humans, I don't think they'll take the bate so easily.

If you had a city in danger, and another city wasn't, wouldn't you send all the units from one to the next? It's AI like to keep decent defenses in one and send all excess from one to the other.

Has anybody considered a little pillaging? That eastern contingent could move straight between "Look Here" and "Phoneopolis", pillage the roads north and west of Athens, and really slow down any reinforcments headed northward...

...just a passing thought.

Has anybody considered a little pillaging? That eastern contingent could move straight between "Look Here" and "Phoneopolis", pillage the roads north and west of Athens, and really slow down any reinforcments headed northward...

...just a passing thought.

Welcome to the team! :goodjob:

Yeah, I uttered it somewhere, maybe not this thread. Considering MIA will probably not have the offensive to take us on, it's a good second option IMHO, if taking cities grinds to a halt when the hoppies turn out too tough a nut to crack,

I think that scoutsout (and previously Crakie) have a good point. pillaging those roads not only hurt their speed, it also reduces their native luxes. Spurring riots and increased spending on entertainment. which in turn will hurt their research
and ability to rush units.

[party] welcome to the team scoutsout

My buddy Scout! Good to have you aboard!

Pillaging is key. Everyone is very correct on this point. We really won't be able to get many troops into position to start pillaging on turn one. I would say that pillaging resources and luxes will be our first priority. Taking some cities along the way will be gravy.

If someone could let me know how I could get my hands on a recent save, I'd appreciate it. I'd really like a peek at the exact number and disposition of our forces. (This is my first experience in a demo game... :blush: )

I really like the plans Bugs laid out. I have an idea that we might be able to use in concert with at least one of his alternatives. While Bugs and Bede have done a nice job of quoting my favorite strategist (Sun Tzu) my idea is borrowed from another well known military strategist; Murphy:

"The diversion you are ignoring is the main attack."

A lot of us on this team are seasoned SG types, and many would be quick to point out that human opponents are not as easily manipulated as AI enemies...but that's not to say that our enemies can't be tactically manipulated.

What would you guys think about this: Take one of Bugsy's plans and load it to one axis or another...and instead of simultaneous attacks, we show an apparent weak advance (a spear and a couple of archers) on one front, while a stack of Gallic Swords advances somewhere else. Then the Spear/Archer set are joined by a larger stack of GS's...

...or something like that. Does any of this make sense?

Edit: Cross-posted with Bugs. Good to be aboard! :wavey:

scoutsout,

You can get that info here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=132772). Have fun.

scout: look here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3207642&postcount=1).
It's all in gmail.

scoutsout,

www.gmail.com

user name: teamkiss
password: sillywabbit6

select the sent saves for the saves that we sent to team D'nut (for CA2 only, but are the most recent)

select received saves for the ones that you can open in [c3c]

save's password is 100Euros

holy crossposts batman!!!

yeah; that was one of the most wicked X-posts I've ever seen. Everyone who was in the forum posted.

Wicked crosspost alright. Even I was browsing through. ;)

:rotfl:
Wow! I don't think I've ever seen moderators start cross-posting. Good thing I wasn't misbehaving! :mischief:

:rotfl:
Wow! I don't think I've ever seen moderators start cross-posting. Good thing I wasn't misbehaving! :mischief:

It's a sign from above. ;)

Now back to the game...

Wow, that was weird. Great minds think alike. ;)

I was first. :mischief:

Wohoowee, and my post was referenced to...I'm drunk and happy and and Scoutsout is aboard team KISS, this will be (and always has beeen) a good ride. Pillageing is this Idiots main goal whenever he goes to war. I'd like us to make them (MIA) bleed bizzare amounts of blood before we actually kill them. Pill rescourses, roads and luxes galore, they have no offense so they will be in a stranglehold not able to do anything cept bleed until we have gathered a nice stack of GS's to relieve then from their pain. I'd like every warhead (including you Scout) to get a save and make an estimate on when we should attack. Then you should tell us diplos how to negotiate to make the best strategy for whacking. Slinger had suggested a sooner rather than later hit and we've played MIA according to that. If someone has another strategy thought out, please post and we might change diplo. in lines of that.

I'm drunk and happy...I'm glad to hear it! Happy New Year...and stuff....

I've been known to say that it's better to be drunk on the fruit of the vine than the blood of thine enemies...

...which is usually when I take a deep breath... re-think it...and say...

"Wanna bet"?!?!?!? :hammer:

I agree that sooner rather than later is best. We have to give MIA ten turns notice, correct? I would give them notice now. Then when the ten turns are up, I'd sit back and let them sweat for a few turns. Then I would strike on turn 12 or 13 after the notice. Sort of like giving a guy on death row a stay of execution.

If MIA does not give all their techs (they do not plan on giving poly) the treaty has been broken and all bets are off. We can attack anytime per both admins interpretation of the agreement.

If MIA does not give all their techs (they do not plan on giving poly) the treaty has been broken and all bets are off. We can attack anytime per both admins interpretation of the agreement.
Don't let them know that until the declaration is ready.

I agree that sooner rather than later is best. We have to give MIA ten turns notice, correct? I would give them notice now. Then when the ten turns are up, I'd sit back and let them sweat for a few turns. Then I would strike on turn 12 or 13 after the notice. Sort of like giving a guy on death row a stay of execution.

The anitcipation of death is worse than death itself :devil:

The anitcipation of death is worse than death itself :devil:
Words of great wisdom, Mistfit, and could be applied to many situations.

Was it Oscar Wilde who wrote, "A coward dies a thousand deaths. A brave man dies but once."?

the coward dies a thousand deaths, the brave but one

IIRC this was Hemmingway from A Farewell to Arms

Which is derived from a Shakespear quote in JCII

A coward dies a thousand times before his death. The valiant never taste of death but once."
From William Shakespeare's Julius Caesar

I prefer George Patton:
Now I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.

I still haven't heard about our numbers of Gallics and where they are presently deployed.

6 GS with 1 coming next turn

Locations:
2 in Dunderhead (1 needed for MP)
1 in Ignoramus (needed for MP)
1 in Gilfach
1 in Cyprus Creek
1 on the road to EWR just south of Dunderhead
1 coming next turn out of Ignoramus


There is also a cat in Dunderhead, I'm not sure what to do with since it can't penetrate the jungle.

I think upping lux 10% is worth getting all those guys down to EWR. We declare in 6 turns now, right? Unless we choose to follow the peace aggreement, (or if we already have, chose not to break it).

I agree that 10% is worth moving them now. But are we holding to the 20 turns after Republic or not??

I thought that we were going to let them know we were ending the peace to make them sweat a bit. Hopefully they would attack us and we could get WH.

I do have an idea on this. We send them republic, not accepted and demand that they give us all of there techs and tell them at the same time that we intend on declaring in 20 turns. They would be stupid to give us those techs right? So then they would break the original agreement and we could go ahead and attack when we felt we were ready. And get the techs from the other continent. :D

Very clever Tubs. That would break the agreement. Should we or shouldn't we show them our army?

I do have an idea on this. We send them republic, not accepted and demand that they give us all of there techs and tell them at the same time that we intend on declaring in 20 turns. They would be stupid to give us those techs right? So then they would break the original agreement and we could go ahead and attack when we felt we were ready. And get the techs from the other continent. :D
I like this idea too except that we would have to arrange to do it right when we turn over Repub to MIA. If we don't we risk MIA selling it around to the other continent before we would have a chance to sell it.
I also like getting them to break the agreement so we can get to war right after they get Repub.

We send it "not accepted" until they return the techs. The other thing is we have no reason to let them know it's 20 turns if they abide by the agreement. Let them believe it's 10. Just because we have an interpretation from the admins doesn't mean we need to let them know it's 20.

Good thinking Tubby and ,Yes, now that they've made a complete turnaround regarding the inclusion of Poly, that particular road out of the peace treaty seems closed down. Could we make an agreement with Nuts and TNT on buying Rep. only from us?

IIRC, MIA is the tech leader and no one has Construction at all. I think that MIA has all AA techs except Construction, Republic and Monarchy. So there is no trading that they could do with the other continent unless they just gift it to them, which would be a nasty way for them to play hard ball.

EDIT::: so who's going to head up the big trade threat??

I (and I'm sure Daghie) have no problem running with it. Keep cool and state the facts. No anger or disappointment just our view.

On top of their commercial trait, our discomfort comes from the free tech in the new age where we get zero benefit.

Who do we talk to these days? Peter Grimes?

Let's try to move conversations to the MIA thread. I'd prefer our warmongers talk strategy in here. If we need them to be aware I'd prefer a link be established to make them aware.

Here's a little something I'd like to offer my fellow warmongers to chew on...

I wonder if our 'friends' at MIA are thinking in terms of taking us on in the early Middle Ages, when Feudalism becomes available. I bet they want to take us on as soon as our Gallic Swords are "obsolete".

One thing they might be overlooking is the fact that Gallic Swords get a free upgrade to Medieval Infantry, do they not?

My question to the team: How tough would it be to conquer the jungle, assembe a stack of 8 or 10 Catapults, and have 3 Veteran Spears ready to upgrade to Pikes when the time is right? Alternatively, an advancing mix of MDI and fortified Gallic Swords might be tough to contend with for a civ strapped for offensive units...

Am I nuts, or might this qualify as another one of my "I have an idea" moments?

First, I think we need to be honorable with MIA. We don't need to be dishonest in oder to kick their butt.

Second, I think we leave the cats at home to use as defensive artillery.

I am sure that MIA is thinking that they will attack in the MA. Yes, our GSs are upgradeable, but we also want to set off a GA. Pikes are worthless to MIA since they have Hops. They also have iron hooked up so they may have some offensive units in the works. I think we plan on attacking precisely on turn twenty.

First, I think we need to be honorable with MIA. We don't need to be dishonest in oder to kick their butt. Right you are.Second, I think we leave the cats at home to use as defensive artillery. If we bother with many cats at all...I am sure that MIA is thinking that they will attack in the MA. Yes, our GSs are upgradeable, but we also want to set off a GA.A mix of GS and MDI could accomplish that... more on this in a moment.Pikes are worthless to MIA since they have Hops.I'm not thinking about Pikes... I'm thinking that MIA wants MDI to attack us or counter our attacking units. If you look at their ancient age options, they don't have many. If they can get us into the Middle Ages, they can attack/counterattack with MDI. I think we plan on attacking precisely on turn twenty.What do we need to do to put ourselves in the best possible tactical position in the next twenty turns?

Consider this: A stack of mixed GS and MDI. First 2 GS into enemy territory fortify, for the defensive bonus. Next units in are MDI and GSs. When attacking an enemy city, we lead with the GSs, using their retreat ability as a sort of Catapult, to soften the defenses. Then we hit the 3/4 and 2/4 Hoplites with MDI, and finish up with a GS to trigger the GA.

Does any of this sound workable from a tactical standpoint?

Right you are.If we bother with many cats at all...A mix of GS and MDI could accomplish that... more on this in a moment.

Consider this: A stack of mixed GS and MDI. First 2 GS into enemy territory fortify, for the defensive bonus. Next units in are MDI and GSs. When attacking an enemy city, we lead with the GSs, using their retreat ability as a sort of Catapult, to soften the defenses. Then we hit the 3/4 and 2/4 Hoplites with MDI, and finish up with a GS to trigger the GA.



Is there some algorithim that determines the likelyhood of a mobile unit's retreat? I know in SG I am often frustrated when my multi-move units go 'once more into the breach, my friend' as I scream in frustration.

I'm not a war monger (I'm angry and violent, just not skilled so I want to learn), and I want to ensure that Scout's plan works.

Also, in my capacity of a learner, why no cats?

If we are bringing in MDI then thier movement is not a handicap, and it seems that when going up against Hopies or Pikes it is a good financial decision NOT to risk relatively expensive assault units on intact defenders (especially when I don't know the retreat algorith).

As I say, I'm learning, so I would love enlightenment on the 'no cats.' With all of your tutalige I'm sure I can add the skill and inebriation to be an official war-monger.

If we bother with many cats at all...

Also, in my capacity of a learner, why no cats?

For the ":king: of Mixed Unit Attacking" TM to say that I presume it has to do with all of the impassable jungle to the south.

As one who has sat at the feet of the master of combined arms for many sessions, there is a more subtle reason than the jungle, which will be pretty much a non-issue if we run the roads as expected.

The GS will act as a harder hitting and more accurate bombardment unit than a cat, weakening the defender before retreating, leaving wounded for the maces to kill. There is a risk of loss (especially if the town is on a hill or has other defensive bonuses) but that is offset by the opportunity of an outright kill, especially if you are going in with promoted troops.

Is there some algorithim that determines the likelyhood of a mobile unit's retreat?
Each combat experience level have a Retreat bonuce, which can be founded in the [c3c] editor. The chance of retreat is determined by formula:
100*Ab / (Db + 50),
where Ab - is retreat bonuce of attacker, and Db - bonuce of defender.
For example, if elite GS attacks vet hoplite, chance of retreat is 61.1%. This chanse will not be changed, even if GS attacks Modern Armor in the walled town on hill :). Only combat experience defines the chance of retreat

Retreat bonuces for each experience level:

Conscript - 34
Regular - 50
Veteran - 58
Elite - 66

@ Smart - you live up to your name. Thanks for the answer.

To the war-mongers, is the above explination (thank you by the way) and the eschewing of bombardment an across the board thing (ie when you have canon/cavs and artiler/armor) or is it driven by our particular UU and the current situation?

(By the way, did you notice I try to cover up my ignorance of these things by using words like 'eschew?')

To the war-mongers, is the above explination (thank you by the way) and the eschewing of bombardment an across the board thing (ie when you have canon/cavs and artiler/armor) or is it driven by our particular UU and the current situation?


There are no "across the board" answers. In this case it makes sense because of the hit power of the GS combined with the retreat capability.

I am a really big fan of bombardment when you are taking on a stronger defender, i.e. GS vs Swissies for example, or horsemen against pikes, or when the attacker has no retreat.When the strength values are equal it is handy but less important

When artillery comes along the equation changes some as the remote bombardment plays a bigger role, and of course with air power the whole thing changes.

What Bede said and there are some other advantages of leaving cats behind. Humans that see cats will view this as a target rich environment. A stack of cats that are captured will surely be used against us.

As well, having them stay at home would help against any type of counteroffensive by MIA. Any counter would likely include hops within a stack and Hops need to be *plinged* to get back the tactical advantage.

I'd say let them pillage, the war should be over before they could do much damage. And a GS could take one out pretty easily on flat land, and it could retreat, so I say no cats at all. I think they'd be more worried about reinforceing dangered cities and taking back captured ones than sending hop's over to us.

The GS will act as a harder hitting and more accurate bombardment unit than a cat, weakening the defender before retreating, leaving wounded for the maces to kill. There is a risk of loss (especially if the town is on a hill or has other defensive bonuses) but that is offset by the opportunity of an outright kill, especially if you are going in with promoted troops.Exactly. And this goes one further if you are hitting the wounded troops with even harder Hitting medeival Infantry.

As Bede recently pointed out in a recent comparison of Knights v. MDI (referencing DocT?) The retreat ability has the effect of reducing the attacking power by a hit point. A 4 point Gallic Sword that retreats will actually only fight for the first 3 hit points.

By considering these early hit points as bombardment rounds... we gain leverage on an apparent 'weakness' of our UU versus theirs. Weakened hoppies will fall quickly if we can follow the GS with MDI. If we can build a few pikes to go with the stack, that'd be nice. But the speed of the GS will allow them to fortify on the MDI in some terrain...giving an additional (minor) edge.

...and remember, we can continue to build GSs until we've had our GA. And we only need one GS victory to get that GA.

ATM we have:
7 Warriors
7 Swords
1 Cat

Pic of MIA territory on turn 84 is in Cart. Room

I'm rusty on the tech tree. What get's us trebs?

Eng IIRC . . .

So we have 7 GS to go on the offensive. It would be nice to have more, but a GA will help.

With only 7 swords plus the few we would get in 1-2 turns I would concentrate on destroying the outlying towns with iron,lux and disconnecting iron on inner city with 4-5 GS. They are most likely going to lay back and await our attack with their hops waiting nervously. We will most like spend 6-10 turns of GA building another 8-10 GS then we can plan a diversion to sack some core towns.

Just a brief note from a complete schmuck on warfare. We do not have to attack until you guys think we have enough steel to do some real damage. We could try to adjust diplo to military strategy as well as the opposite. In this case, we can wait 10-15 turns from now if you'd like.
Please don't miss the opportunity to get units down S in the disguise as barb-hunters and also to make up a phony plan for Nut invasion so we maybe can send even more down there without MIA going bananas. Decide which one should do it, and do it fast.

Just a brief note from a complete schmuck on warfare. We do not have to attack until you guys think we have enough steel to do some real damage. We could try to adjust diplo to military strategy as well as the opposite. In this case, we can wait 10-15 turns from now if you'd like.
Please don't miss the opportunity to get units down S in the disguise as barb-hunters and also to make up a phony plan for Nut invasion so we maybe can send even more down there without MIA going bananas. Decide which one should do it, and do it fast. I concur. I'm just excited and with my lack of demo experience I am still thinking I have enough to knock them out. Let's get the GS in position down the flank towards where MIA wants us to stage from and tell them we are building boats to transport them.

I concur. I'm just excited and with my lack of demo experience I am still thinking I have enough to knock them out. Let's get the GS in position down the flank towards where MIA wants us to stage from and tell them we are building boats to transport them. Maybe we have enough and therefore should hit asap. I always hesitate to attack and often wait far to long so I'm not the guy to make the call. The reason I'd like you (or Bugs/Scout/Gram/Bede) to send that mail/PM is I think it would look more like an actual invasion plan than a diplomatic sidestep.

newest pic from our curraph

http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/9083/mia8cm.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

So what do we do now? focus on how to shuttle troops to the other shores?
And what about Zeus? does that still void at the same time?

I'm not really crazy about the idea of launching a campaign on a foreign shore, unless it's a token force to start a GA... we really don't have the depth to embark on an overseas conquest.

I agree with Scout. Overseas junkets to do anything of worth can hurt against AI's let alone humans. I like the settlers/ workers / GS fo 20. Even let them think we will attack, because we are. During the 20 place groups into position and let them fret. USe the 20 to kill camps and gain Elites. At turn 15 have 2 GS parked outside the front 4 towns and then due to thier repub we capture. We also have a group of 10 GS ready along with the others.
Is there a town we can disconect and make patrol warriors to cover the entire southern edge? We have to watch them now!
They are thinking we are striking and prparing. Watch the F11 drop now.
20 turns guys. We take control of this continent. That's my opine.
We should keep the happy faces and repeat what they said about separate but standing on our own. The other continent probably dropped their war because the victor felt sorry for them.
Let's plan for 20.

Fair enough. I defer to our military experts. Build and military it is.
I will relay no deals from here and peace for 20.

Is it just me or did they miss 2 fish resources (unless they're going almost-ICS)? I think SoZ pays out very late, so a couple more GS's will do more good that AC's.

Edit: tell me I didn't miss a page again... So build-up for 20 turns it is. OK.

We discovered Rep. on 85 so a DoW should be sent on our 95 saying we will knock, knock in 10 turns. I go with Whomper here. If both Scout and Slinger says we should go for 20 I have nothing to add cept we could make use of a peace treaty with Nuts before we hit.

Warrior camp near Cyprus Creek:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/barb.JPG

I have pm'd Rik Meleet to try and get these pictures off the CFC server. If anyone has any other ideas I would try to do this asap.

I just wanted to bump this thread to remind everyone of the upcoming war in ~15 turns and to gently ask:

- Do the military turnplayers still agree, on principle, to build and send forth stacks of a force composed of mostly all GS's during these turns?

- Is it clear to the builder players what's up, and what are the production previsions as of D-day?

- Do we push the workers forward for warpaths through the jungle down from the luxes onto the greek lands? Does anyone feel the need to build either defensive forces, slow moving combined arms, or war-settlers, anywhere along?

If the answers are 'Yes', 'something clear' (whatever it is) and 'being done' and/or 'No need', I think this is bound to be a well-planned success. Let's just remember not to forget and do the mistakes 9 pages of a thread should have snapped out. The details of it all will have to be worked in time with the material at hand, but it looks promising.

I just wanted to bump this thread to remind everyone of the upcoming war in ~15 turns and to gently ask:

- Do the military turnplayers still agree, on principle, to build and send forth stacks of a force composed of mostly all GS's during these turns?
If we are going to war, this is our best strategy.

- Do we push the workers forward for warpaths through the jungle down from the luxes onto the greek lands? Does anyone feel the need to build either defensive forces, slow moving combined arms, or war-settlers, anywhere along?We absolutely need warpaths. The more the better. Speed kills in war. We should probably send some warriors into the jungle to act as sentries and pickets. As long as we can see them coming, we use GS/MDI that are built at home to act as our defense.

Keeping workers down south for warpaths is something I haven't seen discussed before. Rather the opposite, bring 'em to the core for improvements or joining cities

Currently there is a path on the eastern side that at least extends to the MIA city. I believe that MIA is currently roading to the dyes. So IMO (needs to be confirmed by the war drummers) that we need two paths of distruction. One going through EWR (dyes) and one through Senilityville (Spices). so I'm not sure how where the war path needs to go. We have some workers but the new cities need connecting and developing which is what I was doing with them in the todo's.

Some GS are already near EWR. But when do we need to start conolidating them? when we declare, before we declare, or a few turns after we declare.

Looks like it's time for a war meister to take a shot. This peaceful builder will try to keep his hands off :lol:

Please don't join any workers. We have tons of jungle and marsh to get rid of.

war front - hops and horses
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/9605/warfront0cc.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

IS everyone still a go on this?
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/5176/average3fj.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I have a bad feeling about all this..
1. TNT and Donut are talking peace
2. Donut say they can't make long term peace but will trade.
3. TNT says they can't trade construction and
4. Says have a nice war against MIA....

This sounds like a dogpile. We should really reconsider the diplomatic situation.

Have a nice war against MIA? :eek:

Have a nice war against MIA? :eek:Aw c'mon Bugs... let's not get squeamish here. With the noise we made about the tech trading with MIA... they had to know we were ready to twist the knife. And the teams on the other continent would be fools to think we're plotting an overseas war when MIA is at hand...

...and I'm not all that concerned about the other continent either. Mounted Warriors versus Immortals sounds like a sure-fire formula for a meat grinder. Would you launch an adventure on the other continent with such an adversary on your doorstep? All it will take is for one of them to take us on... and the other will take care of that problem.

My guess is that MIA is planning an offensive or counter offensive with a combination of Hoplites and Swords. This is why we need to be gentle on upgrading our Gallic Swords to MDI. The speed of the GSs will be a big help in skirmishing and whittling down their units... but once the GA kicks off, we won't be able to build more.

Hit with the Gallics, follow with the MDI.

What do you mean with: "but once the GA kicks off, we won't be able to build more. " ??
AFAIK you can build GS's in GA, unless you already have Feudalism. :confused:

"Have a nice war against MIA" sounds like a bluff. Afraid we'll become too powerful. Honestly, if DNUT and TNT have been warring for centuries, I don't think either will be able to afford an oversees assault to us, or to counter one of ours if we feel it's neccessary. Open war (as it seems with no core city captures) will hurt both of them, they'd rather take a break to build up infra and research rather than attack us.

But the "average" military does scare me.

I don't think they'll come either, but not only because they're too weak, but they must be afraid of eachother too. I mean, I wouldn't lauch an invasion of D'nutia if we had hostile-but-at-peace MIA next door.

Average military ... Does that mean they build units faster in Anarchy than we do in Republic?

Speaking on anarchy, how about attacking now, as in next turn? We have a good opportunity, let's take it.

We have an agreement and we're not going to break it.

Oh, yea, forgot the agreement.

Average military ... Does that mean they build units faster in Anarchy than we do in Republic? They are still scared we will jump them and have pop rushed some hoppies and horses. They put 'em visible at the border to show us they are prepared. When our core starts pumping iron again we will will soon be stronger.

I was online with Mistfit the other day and instead of telling them that we will attack in 10 turns, he suggested that we tell them that we reserve the right to immediately declare any time after 10 turns. Might be a mute point now, but it does take their guard down ever so slightly which might be good.

Btw, there is a GS on both shores inching his way through the jungle. Continue?

Well the only concern with sending out troops is we are getting a barb uprising over the next few turns.

sorry, I don't get this "declare and wait 10 turns" stuff. I assume there's some clause in a treaty that I didn't read. Can someone link me to the treaty?

edit: forget it, I dug it up and Whomp x-posted my edit :)

Treaty with MIA...
1. VOID

2. MIA and KISS land units stay outside of each other's actual borders, during peace.

3. MIA and KISS sea units don't stay on the same tile in each other's territory for 2 consecutive turns, during the peace

4. MIA and KISS will offer each other "Most Favoured Nation status". Most Favoured Nation simply means that we will offer what we learn at the monoploy beaker cost less the Emperor trade rate discount of 20% if, and only if, MIA will reciprocate. Other nations will pay monopoly beaker cost. No shared research, no sweet heart deals, just cold number crunching.

4a. Deals with other nations which go beyond simple technology trade at the monopoly beaker cost for, must be agreed to by the other party

5. KISS will get Writing while MIA gets Masonry and Mysticism. As soon as KISS gets Writing, the team with the best research capability starts on Code of Laws, while the other team starts on Philosophy. Code of Laws will be discovered first and given to the other party before Philosophy is discovered, so that Republic comes as a free tech.

6. Techs are shared between both teams when Writing and Republic are discovered. We believe this balances out under "Most Favoured Nation" status.

7. MIA and KISS are at peace. Since both of us can't really know what new developments will be in the future, our peace deal is basically unlimited, and can only be terminated at least ten turns beforehand. This shall not be done, before at least 10 turns have passed after the discovery of Republic.

8. On first contact with an unknown team, either KISS or MIA will share, automatically when their game save is sent, this fact with their continental neighbor in written form.

7. MIA and KISS are at peace. Since both of us can't really know
what new developments will be in the future, our peace deal is
basically unlimited, and can only be terminated at least ten turns
beforehand. This shall not be done, before at least 10 turns have
passed after the discovery of republic.

I was online with Mistfit the other day and instead of telling them that we will attack in 10 turns, he suggested that we tell them that we reserve the right to immediately declare any time after 10 turns. Might be a mute point now, but it does take their guard down ever so slightly which might be good.

Imho, our diplomacy should be more subtle. Perhaps we say something like we consider this peace deal over as all the tech and research arrangements under it have been accomplished. Therefore, we would like to initiate talks on a new deal so we can discuss a research/peace arrangement thru the MA. Keep that talk dragging on and on as much as possible, quibbling over little crap and such, make a "breakthru" at around turn 7 or 8, giving them great hope that we will reach something just before the 10T is up, and then bringing the hammer down at turn 10.

just my USD$0.02

imho, our diplomacy should be more subtle. Perhaps we say something like we consider this peace deal over as all the tech and research arrangements under it have been accomplished. Therefore, we would like to initiate talks on a new deal so we can discuss a research/peace arrangement thru the MA. Keep that talk dragging on and on as much as possible, quibbling over little crap and such, make a "breakthru" at around turn 7 or 8, giving them great hope that we will reach something just before the 10T is up, and then bringing the hammer down at turn 10.
Sounds like a plan. I knew we didn't want to say "ok we declare war on you and now we will twiddle our thumbs for 10 turns." I have a feeling that they could attack if we provoked them. After the initial peace is over, we should be able to enter their borders. Just not attack them. I see no problems with pillaging roads in the open either.

The treaty is written so that we will never be able to attack MIA (or them us) without the 10 turn notice. Therefore we cannot do this talking about researching together because that would take place after we have said we will attack in 10 turns. If we do initiate negotiations, on the 10th turn we can't attack, but only declare that we will attack in 10 turns.
The suggestion is that we state that we consider the peace deal expired after the initial 10 turns after rep is dicovered (which is very soon), but that will cause MIA to argue that we cannot do that (which is correct) and to turn down any offers from us because they sesnse that we are preparing to attack without notice (which is also correct ;)).
If we wanna play honorably and attack asap the only way to go is to send the DoW on T104 and start setting the scene. This while trying to get Nuts in on an alliance (like we're doing atm). The other option is to hold our horses and try to make the most out of our agri trait spamming settlers and denying luxes by building culture in EWR and Senilityville. This we could do while (I'm repeating myself here) making an extra effort on controlling the sea (lighthouse?).
Side note: Nuts haven't got rep yet and are maybe more willing to sign peace deal if we chip that in (plus they give monarchy)? Just a thought.

Is it possible they broke 4 and/or 4a when trading construction?

How astute Barbu. They did because we received no offer for Construction.

This is the deal that went down....
MIA receives Construction (600) and prolly free tech if it's not the same as what they got. (1080 or 960)

TNT Receives CoL (261), Lit (261), MM (315), Poly (315), Republic (735), and prolly MIA's free tech (1080 or 960)

excluding the MA free techs since it's pretty much a wash, that means TNT is receiving 1626 beakers worth of techs and MIA only receives 600. Even if you give TNT the more expensive MA tech, that only adds 120 beakers. no where close to the 1026 beakers worth that the techs make.


I say bring out the Chuck Norris/Bruce Lee war drums and hit them now!!!!!

Send off the message to Fe and Chamnix.

writing it now with GA & RM copied

Here is the PM that was sent to fe3333au, Chamnix, ginger_ale, and Regentman
Dear MIA,

Here at KISS we are baffled by the back-stabbing that happened. We received an email from TNT about a potential trade for Construction. They said that they were "constricted" and the parting statement was "Enjoy the war with MIA."



4. MIA and KISS will offer each other "Most Favoured Nation status". Most Favoured Nation simply means that we will offer what we learn at the monoploy beaker cost less the Emperor trade rate discount of 20% if, and only if, MIA will reciprocate. Other nations will pay monopoly beaker cost. No shared research, no sweet heart deals, just cold number crunching.

4a. Deals with other nations which go beyond simple technology trade at the monopoly beaker cost for, must be agreed to by the other party

This is the deal that went down between MIA and TNT with beaker costs....

MIA receives Construction (600) and prolly free tech if it's not the same as what they got. (1080 or 960)

TNT Receives CoL (261), Lit (261), MM (315), Poly (315), Republic (735), and prolly MIA's free tech (1080 or 960)

excluding the MA free techs since it's pretty much a wash, that means TNT is receiving 1626 beakers worth of techs and MIA only receives 600. Even if you give TNT the more expensive MA tech, that only adds 120 beakers. no where close to the 1026 beakers worth that the techs make.


We are concerned about this and request an explanation. An acceptable solution would be for MIA to gift Construction as well as at least one of the free techs that were ill-gotten.

Please reply before our turn as delay will read as a declaration of war from MIA.

Tubby of the KISSers

Note that I didn't mention anything about an extended peace treaty beyond what was already there.

EDIT: EXPOSSED, re-writen

Nicely writen.

Are we in position to strike now?
We have to send this after they palyed the turn and before we play ours.

Well it would be nice to get those two techs and then still wait til turn 104. 12 turns shouldn't effect things to much and it would be worth the wait. But if they don't reimburse us for their mistake, then yes we hit them when we want to.

Very good. I hope there's no response :D .

The game is afoot!

First of all I really, really hope that Regent and GA agree on MIA breaking the deal so that out hands are un-tied. Having said that I'm not sure they will, but I'm hesitant to elaborate before they respond. Let them think about this without me distracting :lol: . What is obvious is that they did not follow section 4 in the treaty.

The game is afoot!

I tend to stay away from American TV shows, but this reminds me of something that cracked me up... can't remember what it was though, care to enlighten me?

here is the conversation from GA
I think the key word is "if MIA will reciprocate". Since MIA will not offer a 20% discount, KISS won't have to either.

I have a question: does "monopoly beaker cost" mean the techs being exchanged have to have the same value when added up (ie; the 1000+ is not equal to ~600), or something else?

It seems this trade between MIA and KISS was pure technology trade, therefore the trade is legit. What exactly is your question? What exact rule wording do you think they broke?

MIA and KISS agreed to offer techs at a discount to each other as long as the other would do the same as well. MIA did not. Therefore KISS should not have to, but I don't see where MIA broke a rule...wait for RM too.

Well our position on it is that MIA-TNT deal was not at monopoly beaker cost and that they broke the treaty by giving TNT a sweetheart deal (even if it helped MIA out by getting into the MA). MIA back-stabbed us by executing the deal and from the message that we got from donsig of TNT, it appears as though MIA is about to initiate a war with us. We are just asking either for compensation or a declaration of war.

We're not really asking for an admin ruling.. Just keeping you guys informed.

Please keep this PM between you, RM and I. By giving MIA any info out of this PM, you'll be divulging some of our strategy.

Tubby


Ok.

If you do need us to make a decision let us know...now between MIA it seems you will request a tech or two and if you do not get it, you will probably face war?

BTW, these PMs were CCed to RM. RM: I edited the title to read this one first just so you don't get confused a bit when reading the first one.

I tend to stay away from American TV shows, but this reminds me of something that cracked me up... can't remember what it was though, care to enlighten me? Sherlock Holmes reference.

I don't trust this... There are no parts to a treaty.

Here is the message from Chamnix that came along with the save

I recently received a very disturbing PM from Tubby Rower that I sincerely hope does not represent the views of all KISSers. We are more than a bit taken aback by his accusations of backstabbing. We refer you to your official correspondence of January 4, 2006:



Dear Friends of the Green Continent

We have recieved your proposal regarding the trade for Republic, the quest for knowledge of Construction and the wish for peace.
Our teams have, since the dawn of the World of Meleet, had a very pleasant and beneficial relationship. A relationship that has been built on trust and honour. We've had, and still have, the possibility to gaze over the vast ocean and behold the misery created by aggression and feeble minds. We assume neither MIA, nor KISS, would want any of that on our prosperous continent. We also have arranged co-operation in science that are soon to pay off to our mutual benefit.
We regard the deal for Republic a grand finale of the above mentioned partnership and, thus, an end of previous made agreements. We would like to maintain a friendly relationship, but also to make way for each team to stand on their own when they decide to. Therefore, the proposed agreement sent by MIA will not be signed by KISS.
If MIA feels this stance makes the deal for Republic impossible to carry through, please notify us.

Best Regards
Team KISS

(emphasis added)


Now the treaty explicitly forbids withdrawing from the peace portion of our agreement until 10 turns after Republic has been discovered, but you made clear that the trading clauses of the treaty were no longer in effect.

We trust that this satisfies Mr. Rower's request for an explanation. Despite TNT's clumsy attempts to create mistrust, MIA has no desire for a mutually destructive war, and we are still looking forward to discussing cooperation for our mutual benefit in the future.


We might need to request an extension

They're weak. They dont wanna say "Bring it on" thinking they'll sound like they're bluffing, but they don't wanna say " Don't attack us" either.

I don't think he said war, though.

well the treaty is either there or not. there is no middle ground here. If the trading part is gone then the whole thing is out of the window

I caught up with vbraun on CFC chat and asked him about the message from donsig Greetings Shah Tubby!

We thank you so very much for your recent offer to trade fine technologies as our friends to the south refer to them, but we are currently constricted in our ability to sell construction.

Hope your war against the Greeks goes well.

TTFN

signed
donsig II
Grand Vizeer of the Ironic and Iroqi Peoples

That last line is bugging me since my message that prompted donsig to write that message back to us didn't mention Greeks, MIA, or war. it was pure tech talk - trying to get construction and maybe the free tech.

Chamnix' comments are one sided. Either we have a deal or we don't. If we don't, so be it.

We regard the deal for Republic a grand finale of the above mentioned partnership and, thus, an end of previous made agreements. We would like to maintain a friendly relationship, but also to make way for each team to stand on their own when they decide to. Therefore, the proposed agreement sent by MIA will not be signed by KISS. He forgets this part. The bottom line if one part of the agreement is void then the whole agreement is void.

Problem is this chat that Whomp and I had with Chamnix prior to the tech swap.
Chamnix says:
we are very troubled by your cancelling our previous arrangement
Whomp says:
we are not cancelling the deal but we feel poly must be part of that deal
Chamnix says:
i believe daghda said that once the rep deal was consumated then our previous agreement was "null and void"
Whomp says:
it expires with peace the way i read it
Chamnix says:
i don't understand
Whomp says:
we both have fulfilled our part of the republic for techs deal
Whomp says:
as long as all techs are included. we are at tech parity
Whomp says:
the only remaining part to fulfill is the peace part of the agreement
Drummer Boy says:
what we said in the announcement, IIRC, is that we would like a clean sheet after the rep deal is done in a satisfactory way
Chamnix says:
so you believe the peace deal is still in effect?
Whomp says:
if we are at tech parity
Chamnix says:
we thought Daghda meant you were cancelling the peace portion once republic was traded regardless of what techs were involved
Drummer Boy says:
@Cham// will you be on for, say, 20 minutes?
Chamnix says:
sure
Drummer Boy says:
Good, will you excuse us if me and Whomper go powder our noses?
Chamnix says:
lol - powder away
Drummer Boy says:
we'll get back soon
Whomp says:
cham
Chamnix says:
i'm here
Chamnix says:
you're back faster than i expected
Whomp says:
sorry i was clarifying the peace part of the dealWhomp says:
needed to review again
Drummer Boy says:
everything is cool
Whomp says:
so after both of us receive techs our deal is complete
Whomp says:
except for the 10 turns of peace
Chamnix says:
so we are at peace unless 10 turns warning is given, and no warning has been given so far, correct?
Drummer Boy says:
correctemundo

What was clarified by W was that we cannot call the peace deal off one-sided, so I had to go back and say that I was maybe unclear with fe when I told him that, Yes, KISS believes we start on a completely clean sheet after the swap. IMIO we're stuck in the peace deal while MIA has not broken anything. We will have to deal with it or we'll keep on contradicting ourselves.

What disturbes me more than that is this: signed
donsig II
Grand Vizeer of the Ironic and Iroqi Peoples donsig has apparently been promoted, with or without the blessing of Nutters :D .

The Greek people have suffered enough barbarism and incompetence from their leaders... it is time to liberate them... please, someone find the loophole and get us to declare a few turns early.

I just posted something in the Diplo with MIA (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3608959#post3608959)... let's try to keep only war talk in her

Alrig, I have seven hours of driving and five hours of meetings today, I won't be around but this is what I will be considering on the road.

We are going to war with MIA.
Surprise is lost.
While I am hopeful we can come to terms with Nuts, I'm not optimistic, which means there is a possible dog-pile.

We need a plan.

It should include timing (how many GS do we want vs. the defenses that can be mustered.
It MUST include a stout 'home-land security' to gaurd against naval incursions and pilaging.
We need a force requirement and path of advance.
We also need short-term, mid-range and long-range objectives.

I wish it could be a surprise, but it can't so what is the best steam roller we can make?

Remember Purity Of Essence/Peace on Earth (sorry, I loved Dr. Strangelove).

Sincerely, Gen. Jack T. Ripper aka Kickbooti

We might still have a surprise on the flanking cities. Not sure how much that'll help. MIA has swordsmen according to the Mil. Advisor. so they must have rushed some. They would be treated just like our GS as far as relative strength goes since no movement points are in that calc.

btw, MIA was in anarchy during turn 92 (since turn 88). So that means at least 5 turns wasted for them.

Element of surprise may be lost, but it still takes a while to put hoplites in endangered cities.

We need to get a very detailed troop deployment report. Where is everyone?

Also our latest intel on MIA lands.

If no one can get this today, I can get it tomorrow.

Sorry, I normally could do this, but work is requiring me do actually function as a part of society and I can't goof off currently. I'll see what I can do during lunch though.

Where is everybody? I'm here, but ATM I think most work has to be done by generals and micromanagers and I'm neither :lol: . On the diplo front we have been told by Nutters that they are not interested in any military alliances right now and that they will be pleased to discuss trades when suitable (they are working on Monarchy). TNT and MIA has obviously fallen in each others arms so not much to do there. MIA has recieved our latest mail saying "our rules or GS rules", but have not yet responded.
What I would like is for military to analyse the situation and make suggestions, and then for mm'ers to squeeze out as much as possible from our land.

I'm here too Bugs but I'm with Daghie.

Some of us don't have the warmongering and mm'ing skills you, Bede, Grahamiam, Scout, Goz, Barbu, Tubs, Crakie et al have. We're jack of all trades master of none I suppose.

The bottom line is this is your time. This is when we need this game to be taken it up a notch and have you guys step up. I would suggest everyone pick up the coming saves and offer their thoughts on mm'ing and war plans.

I will pm Robi to see if they are still interested in trading monarchy which should finish about the time we'll be ready to start our conflict.

I'm here too, but my skills are definitely not warmongering. I admire those of you who CAN do it well.

I've never been gone here but it is ME, not Tubby ;), who is the chronic slacker. Well that and I am very busy putting a thesis together. Anyway, I will play a turn soon or at least open a save and have a looksy. I feel detailed warplans that span over more than 5 turns will not be as valuable against a human opponent than they are against the AI. Not that it's completely useless of course.

First thoughts, without opening a save:
1) I feel we cannot afford to protect our core very well at the start of the war; we'll need every GS we got. Yes, there will be barb uprisings but hopefully our GA will kick in early and GS production will be sufficient to deal with that. After 5-10 turns we should be aware of ships trying to drop off troops and taking empty core cities.
2) I assume MIA will not just give up their most nothern (lux) towns and will use the 10 turns to stack hoplites in there. Probably best to bypass them altogether at first. With the GS speed, we can afford to.
3) I still like the pillaging option, but only in their core. If we pillage in the north, we should be careful not to slow down our GS speed. We CAN afford to destroy a road or two to disconnect their luxes though. Roads in enemy territory are useless to us anyway, and if you use the movement points of GS correctly, it doesn't matter much.

I make wise cracks and Mondy Morning Quarterback. So far as I can tell, it's Sunday morning. But never fear, I'll be here to provide the wisdom of hindsight...

I opened a save, a couple of thoughts and observations:

- F4 told me MIA has Med Inf... this is bad news.
- MIA has a lot of cities, but most of them are small.
- We need to start gathering our GS, leaving a couple behind for barbs and protection of the core.
- I would propose to gather the GS near Senilityville, take out the spices at Flaxon Musk, then proceed south towards their iron sources near the capitol, taking cities if we can. Chuck Norrisville will have to wait initially, but should be targeted before peacetalks commence.
- We need to stop research after construction... we'll need money to rush.
- WW will be a problem. How's that monarchy deal with the Nutters coming along?

If MIA has MDI and they are average to us, I would recommend against a war. We need to bee-line towards Cavalry. Their hoplites will be able to protect their MDI in a slow roll over us.

Here's where our units are...

http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/5459/military0qy.jpg

Here's our curragh spying a MIA galley.

http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/9321/boat3kj.jpg

Shouldn't that curragh head home for an upgrade?
Something I don't get is how come the GS at Pharga that was fortified in desert next to MIA border now is standing on a jungle banana?

I would rather keep an eye on it to see if they load up troops. but yes it could come home.

On the curragh. Do we need to ask permission to move through their lands?

The reason I moved the fortified GS is because it will have time to scout the coast and get back to the hill by turn 104.

If our plans GoTH, we have enough time before they get to us to build some artillery.

Pillage their roads as needed.

I'd say no on the curraph Whomp. The treaty just says (I guess it's still in effect) that it just can't stay on the same tile.

TOP SECRET

The following screenshot is saved in my personal webspace, so as to avoid the risk of getting compromised by loading it on CFC. I apologize for the size and bytecount.

Discussion to follow.

http://members.atlantic.net/~briant/C3screencaps/MTDG_KISS_Plan.jpg

TOP SECRET

TOP SECRET

Here's a proposed plan "in case things get ugly".

Current tactical situation: A town will be founded on "Green Dot" next turn. We are "weak" to MIA. My guess is that they did a basic warriors-to-swords gambit. MIA has at least one Curraugh on each coast, effectively giving the potential for seaborne diversionary attacks on either flank. Our two forward towns are surrounded by jungle. Each has a mountain in its 9-tile radius. Our Gallic Swords are generally concentrated in the vicinity of these forward towns.As I see it, this is how things could get ugly. Team MIA could send troops toward towns on either coast, or our core. We would need to keep troops at home to guard against this. MIA could then send troops to the mountain outside Effing Whomping Rower or the mountain outside SenilityVille. Prying a Stack of Doom off either mountain would be very costly to us. Reinforcing either position would be difficult. Reinforcing both would be nearly impossible. If things get ugly, this is what I propose we do: Choose the place we fight; a battleground with terrain that favors our speed. Evacuate those towns on the front, and abandon them. The last Gallic Sword out should pillage the road leading to the town. Let MIA contend with the jungle, and plod towards our "line in the sand". Consolidate our lines behind the yellow line. Yellow dots are proposed towns. Everything behind the yellow lines needs to be roaded, to help our speed.

My guess is that MIA wants to hit us soon. I say we plan a skirmishing campaign to clip their wings, and then mount a counter-offensive.

TOP SECRET

Why not build temples (or libraries) in EFW and Senilityville for cultural expansion, put some spears on the mountaintops, build fortifications up there with the workers that will clear the kill zones and if need be make an arrangment with MIA that our men can stay on those mountains regardless what the cultural border does?

That would give us the high ground, and a nice position for a cononade in the future should they get upity.

Curious as always...

Please bear in mind - abandoning those towns is a contingency plan; I don't relish the thought of abandoning two towns (and attendant luxuries) and "going retrograde" at the start of a war. This contingency plan is designed to put our troops in a position to win the war. I see this as a choice between two evils: Losing two towns. Losing a bunch of troops defending two towns, and then losing the towns anyway.
Why not build temples (or libraries) in EFW and Senilityville for cultural expansionBecause there is no guarantee that a border expansion will gain territory in the right direction; our borders already abut the Greek borders in those two towns. put some spears on the mountaintops, build fortifications up there with the workers that will clear the kill zones Have a good look at the terrain around those towns and do the math. To do it right, you're looking at these tasks: Roading 2 mountains. Building forts on 2 mountains. Clearing 12 tiles of jungle.That's a lot of worker turns.and if need be make an arrangment with MIA that our men can stay on those mountains regardless what the cultural border does?My contingency plan is for a time (not of our choosing) that hostilities break out between us and MIA. If/when we reach that point, the only "arrangement" is war. That would give us the high ground, and a nice position for a cononade in the future should they get upity.Getting the high ground and keeping the high ground are two different matters. If MIA gets even a small stack of swords and hoplites on either mountain, it will be very hard for us to pry them off with Gallic Swords. If we build forts on those mountains and they get troops on those forts... it goes double.

Personally, I'd love it if we could clear out all that jungle, get forts on those mountains, and get 3 archers and 3 or 4 pikes in those forts. But from where we now sit we don't have Feudalism and we don't have enough workers to pull that off.

Again, what I've laid out here is a contingency plan, not an invasion plan. We can continue settling and work on our "line in the sand" in the meantime.

the solution to this conundrum, lies with our diplomatic corps. And me keeping silent.

the solution to this conundrum, lies with our diplomatic corps. And me keeping silent.Here's something for the diplomatic corps to work with: Grinder - a lone Gallic Sword near the Greek border, south of the jungle.

As an act of "good faith", we could withdraw him to our homeland, if MIA doesn't like him there.

If we wanted to wrangle something out of the deal, we could ask MIA for a limited right-of-passage for JUST GRINDER, and only for as long as it takes to get him home. No "real" right of passage, more like a "right of tress-passage"...

And of course... we should take notes of whatever Grinder sees on his way home. :D

The reason we're weak compared to MIA is because they are cash rushing hops and MI. I have a strong feeling they turned off research since they knew they had a tech lead. The reason I recommend signing a short term peace deal is because we are already getting something in return (tech discount, lux etc) and it gives us time to get the critical "4" attack and "4" defend units online along with our fast "3" skirmishers. If 50 turns is too long, fine. We can shorten the length of the peace.

I like the right of trepass deal

OK, we're opening the war room back up. Planning has officially begun on a possible war with MIA. We need intel, screenshots, intel, order of battle data, intel, productivity data, oh and did I mention intel.

It is too early to come up with detailed plans, and thanks Bugsy for spearheading our planning/intel gathering.

But, since talking is cheap and sometimes interseting, Boern had an idea that I think we may want to consider. Maybe I'm slow, but I had never thought about settling cities right on the border as an opening gambit. Put rush a rax and maybe a wall and you have a forward base that would be hard to ignore.

As we look at maps of the border we may want to keep an eye out for locations where this would make sense.

The other thing I mention just to keep it in our minds is another large-scale naval invasion. If we have the technology to dump some muskets and cannon on a hill either to distract from a mobile force sweeping down from the jungle, or a mobile force that will pillage the punk out of the Greeks, or if it is to establish a beach-head that would allow us to bypass the jungle or even a raider force that would raze cities, whatever the tactic - naval infantry is cool.

And to prevent that we should make sure that we have the ability to see/stop any naval raiding from MIA. If we trust the Nuts we could each take a side of our continent, if we don't we just bite the bullet and build the navy. I can't wait for the Impressive Idiot Fleet.

There, just talking to talk.

this a big enough map?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/grahamiam/240AD-1-world.jpg

full size is attached and zipped as photobucket nerfed it.

edit: sorry, cannot attach as it's 600kb zipped. I'll upload it to the gmail account

Oh G-man! That is perfect. I just printed it out and posted it around three of the four walls in the war room.

I already see something we need to start talking to donuts about. They need to plan an amphibious landing on MIA, the same way we landed on TnT.

I think we can also plan a landing on the west coast. Our landing would need to be a short distance from our front.

BTW - the attachment is a picture of the front in 240 AD.

It is too early to come up with detailed plans, and thanks Bugsy for spearheading our planning/intel gathering.
Booti, need I remind you that we are ungoverned idiots in anarchy. It would take us several minutes to find our butt in the dark. A successful invasion will take all 22 of our brain cells quite a few weeks to plan.

So start planning!

It would take us several minutes to find our butt in the dark.For those who would only need that long to trip on their butts, yeah. Most would most often trip forward though. Before they start moonwalking and tripping, my bet on more than that.