View Full Version : Government Style (where to focus the rules work)


DaveShack
Dec 14, 2005, 08:19 AM
We have very little time left before our preferred start date of Jan 1st (or shortly thereafter). It is now time to focus our efforts on finishing the rules for the government type preferred by the most people.

The choices, with links to discussion threads, are:

Flexible Government (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=142948)
Triumvirate 4.0 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=146657)
Traditional Government (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=146769)

This poll will be open for 3 days and its results will be used to tell the rule makers which one to push to completion. You are not voting to ratify a ruleset in its current form! The government style getting the most votes can be modified before its Code of Laws is submitted for ratification. I strongly suggest we start working on the one which gets a lead after a day or so.

I was tempted to make this private, but decided not to.

Stilgar08
Dec 14, 2005, 08:31 AM
Surprise surprise: triumvirate for me! Maybe in addition of some aspects from the flexible one...
The traditional has its charme, too!!

I as well would like to NOT let this Jan,1st thing rule of how fast we set up the rule-set... I'd prefer the ruleset to be responsible when to start, not the start-date to be responsible of how well thought through the ruleset is... (Don't go gold too soon! It may cause flame threads in the main-forum :rolleyes: )

I am the Future
Dec 14, 2005, 10:08 AM
As Big Brother for The Party (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140870) I would like to encurage all of our members to vote for the Flexible Goverment.

The Condor
Dec 14, 2005, 10:58 AM
Being a grunt you probably don't care but I choose flexible:D.

RoboPig
Dec 14, 2005, 01:30 PM
by the recommendations of Mr.Future, acting Big Brother and my own judgement, i voted flexible government

Swissempire
Dec 14, 2005, 07:33 PM
The trimuvirate looks the most complete, and Alphawolf is very flexible and itelligent, so i'm going to have to go with the Triumvirate

Nobody
Dec 14, 2005, 11:26 PM
I appreicate the time and effort that has been put into the Triumvirate, But i still don't understand who does what to me i get the same confusion as the Alternative goverment for the civ3 demogame, levels of goverment won't work. I understand tradtional becaue its abovious

Foreign minister deals with foreign affairs, Elected by the people

vs

External consulate is elected by a 2/3 majority of the lower house, may then appoint members (not apart of the triumvirate) to deal with trade, military and foreign affairs, these people can be vetoed by the 5/8 majority in the senate as long as two or more triumvirate do not conferm him.

As far as flexiable is concerned i think that our code of laws/consititution system allows our code of laws to be easiy addapted anyway.

So i vote Traditional,

Nobody
Dec 15, 2005, 02:50 PM
i bet the 4 people who voted tradtional would rather have their vote for flexiable than the other one

RoboPig
Dec 15, 2005, 03:37 PM
how come ravensfire voted on a public poll?

ravensfire
Dec 15, 2005, 03:51 PM
dumb i bet the 4 people who voted tradtional would rather have their vote for flexiable than the other one

Really? I'll bet you are quite wrong on at least one of them.

Also, may I ask what the "dumb" in your post refers to? Surely you would not be castigating the choice a citizen made in a poll, would you?

-- Ravensfire

Nobody
Dec 15, 2005, 05:40 PM
Also, may I ask what the "dumb" in your post refers to? Surely you would not be castigating the choice a citizen made in a poll, would you?



lol i edited it out, its the stupid way i talk, i say "dumb" when i don't like things like the tradtional goverment its "dumb" or bad i didn't get things my way, not that people decisions were dumb

greekguy
Dec 15, 2005, 06:03 PM
could a mod please change my vote from traditional to flexible?

Nobody
Dec 15, 2005, 06:16 PM
Same for me can you change mine also

Changed.

DaveShack
Dec 16, 2005, 12:48 AM
Well, that's a lot more evenly split than I thought it would be. It's really hard to judge exactly how much support each option has until we get to the vote. Also the lead has changed hands twice that I've noticed.

Here is some additional analysis, in case there are any unswayed voters out there. I haven't voted yet and was actually looking for more debate which didn't really materialize.

"Flexible" in this poll is essentially "traditional" with the modification that the number and duties of offices changes throughout the game as the need arises. The Triumvirate proposal also has a flexible provision, it is just hard to find and hard to figure out how it works.

Given the unexpected (to me) high support for flexible, if Tri wins I'll almost certainly try to push the suggested flexible law that I posted in the flexible thread into the Tri rules.

My opinion of the differences between Flexible (traditional+) and Triumvirate is:

Triumvirate is hierarchical with some offices "higher" than others, where Flexible is flat, all offices at the same level
Triumvirate is procedurally complex and rigid, with prescribed actions which must be taken in the proper order. Flexible is procedurally simple (in fact procedurally undefined)
Triumvirate enforces cooperation via process, Flexible relies on individuals to cooperate voluntarily I'm looking for a convincing argument from the Triumvirate side why having the strong procedural aspect is a good idea, or pledges to reduce the process-oriented forced cooperation and increase voluntary cooperation.

Nobody
Dec 16, 2005, 06:10 AM
Triumvirate is hierarchical with some offices "higher" than others, where Flexible is flat, all offices at the same level

to be honest this is the part i don't like, its confusing too understand as well but its able to be fixed. I dont like the Hirachy because it is confusing who is responsable for each area of the game. Some people will have a position but no power, the Alternative mistake over again.

DaveShack
Dec 16, 2005, 08:08 AM
I have opened two threads:

Triumvirate supporters: what do you see as its key features? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=148040)
Flexible (traditional) supporters: what are its key features? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=148041)

In these two threads, I would like supporters of each position to identify the most important things which make that propsal when included, or break it when removed.

Ginger_Ale
Dec 16, 2005, 08:57 AM
Voted for flexible...

Triumvirate looks and appears too complicated - I'd rather stick with something simple that we can sort of 'define' as we go. Right now it's 14-6-13...close race.

Swissempire
Dec 16, 2005, 11:46 AM
Its definitly not to complcated, it just allows for a system of checks and balances so the system isn't taken adavatnage of

Donovan Zoi
Dec 16, 2005, 12:20 PM
Voted for flexible...

Triumvirate looks and appears too complicated - I'd rather stick with something simple that we can sort of 'define' as we go. Right now it's 14-6-13...close race.

About time you showed up and voted for your proposal! :lol:

It's actually 16-4-13, as greekguy and Nobody have changed their votes to Flexible.

Swissempire
Dec 16, 2005, 03:23 PM
this is just purely my opinion, but if we i think if we incorporated the Flexible goverment theory into the Triumvirate's structure and rules it would bea strong governing body.

The flexible government is more of a polictical theory rather than a government. If we were to in the triumvirate allow the abolishing and creating of positions, organizations and advisors, as the flexible proposes, we have a very strong government that has the pro;s of both systems.

It is uncontestable that the Triumvirate is more complete, and if we aim for our early jan starting point, triumvirate is the better choice. If we combine the practical(tri) with the popular(flex) then we have an widely approved government that can fuction, serve its population and evolve.

I'm not the second-coming of Alpa-wolf, Gingerale or DaveSHack, so if someone picks up on this and can incorporate it, i think it will serve our great nation better than eithir one.

If no one agrees or cannnot comprimise, then i ure people to vote or change there vote to/for the tri

Drunken Monkey
Dec 16, 2005, 03:41 PM
I personally prefer the Traditional goverment, but I voted for the tri because as swissempire pointed out the flexible one is not so much a govenment as an idea.
monkey

Nobody
Dec 16, 2005, 04:18 PM
It is uncontestable that the Triumvirate is more complete, and if we aim for our early jan starting point, triumvirate is the better choice.

No its not, the tradtional would be ready very fast, we have a model that has been put into use for along time. All that needs changing is the offices to meet the current game.

Swissempire
Dec 16, 2005, 05:24 PM
As for your point Nobody, i'm not saying that traditional was unready, i was comparing Flexible and Tri. I see the traditional is well ahem Traditonal, but seeing as Civ 4 is a new game, i think tri, or a tri implementing the Flexible evolution(trademarked) would be better.

The change 'll do you good.(good song)

I am the Future
Dec 16, 2005, 06:31 PM
So if you include the change by Nobody and GreekGuy, then the Flexible is winning. 19-17

ravensfire
Dec 16, 2005, 06:45 PM
So if you include the change by Nobody and GreekGuy, then the Flexible is winning. 19-17

The vote totals have already been adjusted - look at the names and manually count them.

-- Ravensfire

I am the Future
Dec 16, 2005, 09:13 PM
The vote totals have already been adjusted - look at the names and manually count them.

-- Ravensfire
OK thanx for clearing that up, stop winning tri Gov

Alphawolf
Dec 17, 2005, 03:02 AM
A new version of the Triumvirate Government is HERE (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3460465#post3460465)

-the Wolf

Tboy
Dec 17, 2005, 03:38 AM
As leader of the Democratic Socialist Party, I strongly encourage my members, and all members of the demogame, to vote for the fair and highly effective Flexible government.

DaveShack
Dec 17, 2005, 10:07 AM
OK, in a strange kind of deja vu, the government style poll ended up deadlocked in a 19-5-19 tie with some abstentions.

See this thread on a run-off process (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=148232) and remaining actions before the game can start.

It's deja vu because DG6 had a similar very close and no majority vote for government style, and DG7 had a close no majority vote on variants.

Illini Rule
Dec 20, 2005, 02:43 PM
I got here late. sorry, can i still vote flexable