Is there a way to check out a civs troop levels if you can't get open borders, don't have a religion, can't get a boat close, you know, the typical situation. It seems kind of absurd to have to declare war with no intelligence at all.

Trade maps with other civs. If they have open borders (or had at one time), they might have the enemy lands mapped. Of course, it might also be dated information. I have made a few game decisions based on info gained from traded maps. Even one of the intro "tips" suggests to be careful about open borders, because the enemy might just be reconning your area to sell later.

But that's about it before planes, spies, and of course sattelites.

Not really. You can get a decent guess from some of the rankings, your relative tech levels, and the number of soldiers listed in demographics. Theoretically you could scout with a great merchant, which I think can ignore closed borders. I don't generally find a problem here though, for the simple reason that any AI except maybe Montezuma and Tokuwaga will give open borders even if they don't like you much.

Caravels come along fairly early, which can then at least tell you the details of the coastal cities in this situation. As for whether it's absurd, I don't think it's that unrealistic. A civ as isolationistic as you describe would keep it's strength fairly secret. it may but unadvisable to declare war without knowing what you're facing, but that's a risk you have to take in early war. In practice you will almost invariably have been offered open borders in the past, which will have given you th chance for some scouting.

Plz note: Scouting with a Great Merchant only works agianst AI ;)

I've always been disappointed how spys require so much technology in Civ. Its irrational. But then so are magical force field borders.

I've always been disappointed how spys require so much technology in Civ. Its irrational. But then so are magical force field borders.

They're not magical force fields, they are a way to make declaring war simple, all you have to do is invade and you get a war.

You mean you are going to war not seeing their cities?

Or do you see their cities. When I have a city found, civ4 seems to tell you what is in it already, unlike CIVII for example.

What were they thinking that you know every unit in the city B4 you attack?