new civilization: Serbia [Archive] - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

Shqype

Jan 25, 2006, 12:27 PM

"Always?" Untrue. Serbs didn't even exist until after the 4th century AD when they began migrating to Albanian-inhabited lands.

New York , Shqypni indicates 2 separate locations. I live in New York in the USA, but I enjoy my country and have my heart there.

...and they haven't been a part of Albanian state ever, they are not currently and they will not be in any Albanian state ever and therefore you can not say that those cities are Albanian because they are not.
False. They were part of various Albanian states, such as the kingdoms of Arbnia and the ethnic Albania of Gjergj Kastrioti during the 15th century. After his rebellion there were over 4 centuries of occupation by the Ottoman Empire. When Serbs got their independence those Albanian inhabited areas were not included in their state but still under the administration of the Ottoman Empire with the rest of Albania. It was only after Europe decided to punish the Turks and the Russians imposed on them the Treaty of San Stefano that they were forced to cede Albanian land to that state.

Map of Albania before its lands were given away in 1878:
http://frosina.org/uploads/images/map2.gif

For administrative purposes, the Turks had divided Albania into 4 provinces, or "vilayets" as they called them, of Shkodra, Kosova, Manastir, and Janina. When the European powers began to dismantle the Ottoman Empire after Russia defeated Turkey in a war that resulted in the 1878 San Stefano Treaty, they penalized Albania (because it was considered part of the Ottoman Empire) and divided it by ceding major portions of the Vilayet of Shkodra to Montenegro, the Vilayet of Kosova to Serbia, the Vilayet of Manastir to Macedonia, and the Vilayet of Janina to Greece.

http://frosina.org/culturehistory/ethnicAlbania.asp

Velja

Jan 25, 2006, 02:13 PM

"Always?" Untrue. Serbs didn't even exist until after the 4th century AD when they began migrating to Albanian-inhabited lands.

New York , Shqypni indicates 2 separate locations. I live in New York in the USA, but I enjoy my country and have my heart there.

False. They were part of various Albanian states, such as the kingdoms of Arbnia and the ethnic Albania of Gjergj Kastrioti during the 15th century. After his rebellion there were over 4 centuries of occupation by the Ottoman Empire. When Serbs got their independence those Albanian inhabited areas were not included in their state but still under the administration of the Ottoman Empire with the rest of Albania. It was only after Europe decided to punish the Turks and the Russians imposed on them the Treaty of San Stefano that they were forced to cede Albanian land to that state.

Map of Albania before its lands were given away in 1878:
http://frosina.org/uploads/images/map2.gif

For administrative purposes, the Turks had divided Albania into 4 provinces, or "vilayets" as they called them, of Shkodra, Kosova, Manastir, and Janina. When the European powers began to dismantle the Ottoman Empire after Russia defeated Turkey in a war that resulted in the 1878 San Stefano Treaty, they penalized Albania (because it was considered part of the Ottoman Empire) and divided it by ceding major portions of the Vilayet of Shkodra to Montenegro, the Vilayet of Kosova to Serbia, the Vilayet of Manastir to Macedonia, and the Vilayet of Janina to Greece.

http://frosina.org/culturehistory/ethnicAlbania.aspHey man, that map is wrong!!! New York is not in ancient albanian borders?? :eek:

Shqype

Jan 25, 2006, 02:15 PM

All kidding aside, I was proving that that land was at one point under an Albanian "state." Perhaps now a portion of it is under Serbia, but hopefully soon that will change.

srdjann

Jan 25, 2006, 04:31 PM

That was not Albanian but Turkish state and those vilayets were not strictly Albanian like you try to trick us. But anyway that doesn't matter much.

You are no diffrent then any expansive ultra-nationalist who claims that just that moment when his country was the greatest is the right moment to point in the history for making todays borders.

There is no difference between Seselj and you. No difference at all.

Velja

Jan 25, 2006, 05:01 PM

There is no difference between Seselj and you. No difference at all.There is one. Seselj never claimed New York to be Serbian city. :p

Shqype

Jan 25, 2006, 06:57 PM

Those vilayets were Albanian provinces under Turkish domination. They were given to Serbia.

Expansive ultra-nationalist? Hardly. I simply provide facts in the hope that an intellectual will use them to see through the propaganda.

Perhaps my "country" was "great" two times in its history. During Illyrian times, and during Kastrioti's rebellion against the Ottomans. The other times my "country" wasn't "great," even when it wasn't under foreign rule. I want the Albanian state of today to comprise ethnic Albania, territories wrongfully given to the Slavs by Europe and Russia in 1878, which still house the majority ethnic Albanian population indigenous to those areas since time immemorial.

There is one. Seselj never claimed New York to be Serbian city.
You're right, Sheshel was too busy devising his scheme for completely ridding Kosova of the Albanians and re-colonizing the land with Serbs to claim New York as a Serbian city.

player1 fanatic

Jan 25, 2006, 07:10 PM

I want the Albanian state of today to comprise ethnic Albania, territories wrongfully given to the Slavs by Europe and Russia in 1878, which still house the majority ethnic Albanian population indigenous to those areas since time immemorial.

Yes that does sound too much like Seselj.

But he would say that AVNOJ made borders of second Yugoslavia were wrong and that many territories of Croatian Republic should've been in Serbia instead since they housed lots of Serbian population (at least until Blizt and Oluja).

Disputing nationalists with other nationalism never works.
It only leads to war and destuction.

Velja

Jan 25, 2006, 07:23 PM

Those vilayets were Albanian provinces under Turkish domination. How can you say that they were Albanian provinces?
Just because Greece/Serbia/Montenegro werent strong enough just yet to regain them back from Turks?

They were given to Serbia.I see clearly that you also have problem with Greece, Montenegro and Bosnia(Austria-Hungary).

You're right, Sheshel was too busy devising his scheme for completely ridding Kosova of the Albanians and re-colonizing the land with Serbs to claim New York as a Serbian city.Same as Tachi did with Serbs?

PlatinumS

Jan 25, 2006, 07:43 PM

Expansive ultra-nationalist? Hardly. I simply provide facts in the hope that an intellectual will use them to see through the propaganda.

Look over your posts before you post something about propaganda.:(

I don't know why the cities even bother you. Its not like you're going to download and use it, but even if you do you could take the cities and finish your dream of Greater Albania. :p

btw, where do you get your information from, other then wiki? I like reading things from a different stand point then me. :)

Shqype

Jan 25, 2006, 08:43 PM

How can you say that they were Albanian provinces?
Just because Greece/Serbia/Montenegro werent strong enough just yet to regain them back from Turks?
They were Albanian provinces because Albanians always lived there.

Serbia got its Albanian land from the Turks when Big Brother Russia gave it an opportunity to expand. Serbia had tried to colonize and take that land since it invaded that land, so when Russia and Europe offered it, they gladly took it.

I see clearly that you also have problem with Greece, Montenegro and Bosnia(Austria-Hungary).
I admit I have a problem with Montenegro, a state which size doubled after recieving Albanian land (with the help of Europe and the Turks) in 1878.

Greece has also earned my dislike for what it has done to my people.

But Bosnia? I don't have anything against Bosnia, or Austria-Hungary. Don't know where you'de get that from...

I will not get into the politics of Hashim Thaci, but he concentrated on getting the Serbians committing massacres (Serbian paramilitary) out of Kosove.

Platinum, what propaganda have I posted? None at all. The cities bother me because they are innacurate and portray a Greater Serbia that is not Serbian but tramples the nationalistic rights of other people's and nations.

I don't dream of a Greater Albania, there is no such thing as far as I'm concerned. I want an ethnic Albania which still exists today, but was divided after 1878 after Europe's HUGE mistake.

I have German, French, British English, American English, Croatian, Serbian, Albanian, etj. sources. I don't use wikipedia for this type of information. If you'de like some I can provide them.

Robo Magic Man

Jan 25, 2006, 09:44 PM

Looks like a great civ, but I just looked up Chetniks on Wikipedia for some background info, and found a picture. The pants were green, but the jacket and hat were brown. Unless other chetniks have different uniform colors, the colors on your unit skin would seem to be reversed.

PlatinumS

Jan 25, 2006, 10:10 PM

They were Albanian provinces because Albanians always lived there.

But were they ever part of a independent Albania? Most of the cities on the list were at some point under a independent Serbian nation.

I don't dream of a Greater Albania, there is no such thing as far as I'm concerned. I want an ethnic Albania which still exists today, but was divided after 1878 after Europe's HUGE mistake.

Wasn't that what Milosevic wanted, but with Serbs and Serbia + Bosnia + Krajina? I bet you wouldn't agree with someone saying that Republika Srpska Krajina or Republika Srpska(Bosnia) should be controlled by Serbia, even though these have/had(Krajina) a Serb majority.

I have German, French, British English, American English, Croatian, Serbian, Albanian, etj. sources. I don't use wikipedia for this type of information. If you'de like some I can provide them.
That would be great.:)

Edit:
@ Robo Magic Man - Interesting observation, it might make unit look less green. :P

Velja

Jan 26, 2006, 04:14 AM

Serbia got its Albanian land from the Turks when Big Brother Russia gave it an opportunity to expand. Serbia had tried to colonize and take that land since it invaded that land, so when Russia and Europe offered it, they gladly took it.

I admit I have a problem with Montenegro, a state which size doubled after recieving Albanian land (with the help of Europe and the Turks) in 1878.

We can look it this way:

After 1912 great powers gave to Albania its today territory, and they didnt doubled it, but enlarged it innumerrable times, since Albania didnt have territory of its own before 1912, so looking from that point Albania was great powers little brother.

+Skadar would have been Serbian if Austria-Hungary didnt get totally envolved, and threaten Serbia a war if they dont leave Skadar in 1912.

Shqype

Jan 26, 2006, 05:42 AM

After 1912 great powers gave to Albania its today territory, and they didnt doubled it, but enlarged it innumerrable times, since Albania didnt have territory of its own before 1912, so looking from that point Albania was great powers little brother.
False. Albania did have territory of its own before 1912. But between that time and the end of Gjergj Kastrioti's rebellion it was under the Ottoman Empire. Albania was finally conquered by 1480, but began regaining its territories from the Ottomans in 1911. During that time Albanian land was under Turkish control, which allows for the main basis of Serbian claim to Albanian land: it allows you to claim that Albanian land, in recent history, was not under an internationally recognized Albanian state.

+Skadar would have been Serbian if Austria-Hungary didnt get totally envolved, and threaten Serbia a war if they dont leave Skadar in 1912.
Shkodra would never have been Serbian, it never was and never will be Serbian. Thank God for that. Serbia got too greedy after all the new land it recieved and tried to take more of northern Albania, including Shkodra. The Albanians under Prek Cali defeated the invading Serbian armies and maintained that part of his region in the borders that Europe set.

But were they ever part of a independent Albania? Most of the cities on the list were at some point under a independent Serbian nation.
Yes, some of those cities were part of an independent Albania, numerous times. But those times are wedged between foreign invasions. Albanians have survived 33 armed invasions since antinquity, some of those lasting for centuries, while others were shortlived (like Stefan Dushan's Balkanic Empire). Before the Ottoman occupation, Albanian cities were free and independent under the leadership of Gjergj Kastrioti, the Defender of the Christian faith, which was the main (and most successful) opposition to Ottoman rule in European history.

I don't deny that most of those cities on the list are Serbian. That's a fact. But the Albanian cities on the list that I have pointed out are not. Serbs were lucky enough to get Europe to include them in their state.

serb_guy

Jan 26, 2006, 06:41 AM

Shkodra would never have been Serbian, it never was and never will be Serbian.

sorry, but who built Skadar? king Vukashin and despot Ugljesha Mrnjavcevic...
btw, I haven't played it yet, cuz I'm waiting for my copy of the game.

serb_guy

Jan 26, 2006, 07:35 AM

this is according to a epic poem, though :)

Velja

Jan 26, 2006, 08:47 AM

False. Albania did have territory of its own before 1912. But between that time and the end of Gjergj Kastrioti's rebellion it was under the Ottoman Empire. Albania was finally conquered by 1480, but began regaining its territories from the Ottomans in 1911. During that time Albanian land was under Turkish control, which allows for the main basis of Serbian claim to Albanian land: it allows you to claim that Albanian land, in recent history, was not under an internationally recognized Albanian state.
False to you. How can you talk about Kastrioti's land and tell it should be the same again. That way, I can say look at Stefan Dusan's Serbia - There is no Albania at all, thats the way map should look today! But you just cant understand how stupid your point of view is.

Shkodra would never have been Serbian, it never was and never will be Serbian. Thank God for that. Serbia got too greedy after all the new land it recieved and tried to take more of northern Albania, including Shkodra. The Albanians under Prek Cali defeated the invading Serbian armies and maintained that part of his region in the borders that Europe set.False again. Montenegrin army sieged Skadar for long time and couldnt conquer it, but when Serbian army came with cannons Skadar fell to Serbian hands, but, as I already said, Austria was threatening Serbia a war if they dont leave Skadar, so Serbian army retreated.

Velja

Jan 26, 2006, 10:59 AM

One more thing:
Shkodra would never have been Serbian, it never was and never will be Serbian.

Shkodër

(shk´dr) (KEY) or Scutari (sk´tr) (KEY) , Serbo-Croatian Skadar, anc. Scodra, city (1989 est. pop. 80,200), capital of Shkodër dist., NW Albania, at the outlet of Lake Scutari. It is a market center in a fertile agricultural area that produces a variety of crops. Shkodër is the industrial and cultural center of N Albania and has industries that manufacture cement, textiles, tobacco products, foodstuffs, and metal and leather goods. It is also an important fishing center. An ancient Illyrian capital, Shkodër became (168 B.C.) a Roman colony, passed to Byzantium, and was conquered by the Serbs in the 7th cent. A.D. Until the fall of Serbia in the late 14th cent., Shkodër was the seat of the princes of Zeta (i.e., Montenegro), who pledged it to Venice in return for a subsidy in the war against Turkey. However, it was captured by Sultan Muhammad II in 1479. Shkodër, known under Turkish rule as Iskenderiye, was the seat of a pashalik. The pashas, often chosen from among Montenegrin renegades, fought for centuries against their Albanian neighbors. Montenegrin troops occupied (1913) Shkodër in the Balkan Wars, but the European powers assigned the city to newly independent Albania. There was fighting in the city during World War I. Shkodër was made a Roman Catholic archdiocese in 1867. The city has a large bazaar and is dominated by a citadel built by the Venetians. It has a Catholic cathedral and several mosques.

The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001-05.

Velja

Jan 26, 2006, 11:07 AM

And another one:

Shkodër

also called Shkodra, Latin Scodra, Italian Scutari, town, northwestern Albania. It lies at the southeast end of Lake Scutari, at a point where the Buenë (Serbo-Croatian: Bojana) River, one of Albania's two navigable streams, flows out of the lake toward the Adriatic Sea. Situated at the edge of a wide plain surrounded by high mountains, the city is overlooked on the west by the peak of Tarabosh. Shkodër is dominated on the south by the now-isolated citadel of Rozafat, past which the Kiri River flows into the Buenë. Since 1900 the town has spread northeastward, away from its bazaar, which was once important because of its location at the convergence of trade routes from the Danube River and the Aegean Sea.

Shkodër is the most historic town in Albania. The oldest wall of the Shkodër castle dates from the first millennium BC. The Roman historian Livy cited the town as the capital of the Illyrian king Gentius, who surrendered to the Romans in 168 BC. The town was subsequently held by the Byzantines, Bulgars, Serbs, and Turks, again by Illyrians, and by the Serbian Balša family, who sold it to Venice in 1396. It was a stronghold of the Albanian national hero, Skanderbeg, in the 15th century. The Turks mounted determined sieges of Shkodër in 1473 and 1479, and in the latter year Venice ceded the town and its fortress to Turkey. Shkodër was virtually independent after 1760, when the Bushati family took control; but in 1831 the Turks reasserted their authority and made it the capital of a province. It became the centre of the Albanian cultural movement after the Albanian League was suppressed in 1881. After being occupied by the Austrians in 1916–18 during World War I, it was taken over by the Allied Powers until it was reunited with free Albania in 1921. Before World War II, Shkodër was the chief Roman Catholic centre of Albania, with a cathedral, a pontifical college, and Franciscan and Jesuit convents, libraries, and publishing houses. It was the home of the poet Migjeni (Milosh Gjergj Nikolla, 1911–38). After 1944 Shkodër resisted the Communist government that had taken control of the country.

Encyclopædia Britannica

Shqype

Jan 26, 2006, 12:47 PM

sorry, but who built Skadar? king Vukashin and despot Ugljesha Mrnjavcevic...
Shkodra was an Illyrian city, Skodra, built by the ancestors of the Albanians.

Velja:
The House of Vlastimirović was named after Knez Vlastimir who was the great great grandson of the Unknown Archont who led the Serbs to the Balkans from White Serbia (modern day Poland, Slovakia and Ukraine) during the reign of Byzantine emperor Heraclius somewhere between 610 - 641. This establishes the Serbs in the Balkans in the early 600s.
The dawn of the Middle ages saw waves of Slavs arriving. Byzantine Emperor Heraclius described in his De Administrando Imperio how he gave the Serbs the city of Shkodër and the sourrounding territories of during the first half of the 7th century. They soon formed the Principality of Duklja there. Shkodër was a major city of the medieval Slav state.
Shkodër soon became Duklja's capital during the reign of Saint John Vladimir in the second half of the 10th century who defended the city from the menacing Arbanass tribes.

The Serbs were given Shkodra by the Byzantine emperor. The "Arbanass tribes" they 'defended' the city from were the Albanian tribes that surrounded Shkodra and lived there before the Serbs appeared in 7th century and were given the city.

and by the Serbian Balša family
The Balshaj family was an Albanian family that was one of the members of the League of Lezha, the Albanian land barons and tribal chieftains that united under Gjergj Kastrioti to fight the Ottoman Empire for Albanian independence.

This family is claimed as Serbian because they changed their nationality with the politics: They spoke Serbian and considered themselves as Serbs when it suited them most, then changed back to speaking Albanian and being Albanian when it was in their best interest. This activity reflects the nature of the times.

In any case the only Slavs at this Albanian League of Lezha was the Montenegrin Crnojevich family.

False to you. How can you talk about Kastrioti's land and tell it should be the same again. That way, I can say look at Stefan Dusan's Serbia - There is no Albania at all, thats the way map should look today! But you just cant understand how stupid your point of view is.
Stefan Dushan's land was an empire he created through conquest. He conquered cities that weren't his and added them to his empire. It was already established that a conquerer (such as Germany in WWII) does not have legitimate claims to France, a country that it won through war. Similarly, Serbia does not have valid claims to an Albanian city it was given to by Byzantine.

Stefan Dushan was a conqueror, but Gjergj Kastrioti was an Albanian that unified the disunited Albanian tribes. There is a huge difference. Albanians were always divided by their different tribes, so that allowed conquerors to "divide and conquer" them. That's why Albanians have been through 33 armed invasions. Gjergj Kastrioti was the first one to unite them all and speak about a unified Albania under united Albanian land and cities. It says above that the Turks called Shkodra "Iskenderiye." That is after their name for Gjergj Kastrioti, "Iskender Bey."

The Turks cannot say Shkodra is theirs because they held it for 500 years. The Venetians cannot say Shkodra is theirs because it was a Venetian possession for some time. Just like the Serbs cannot say Shkodra is theirs because it was given to them by the Byzantines for hundreds of years. The Albanians can say Shkodra is theirs because they've always inhabited Shkodra and were the ones that settled it before anyone of the aforementioned conquerors even appeared on the scene.

Mr_V

Jan 26, 2006, 12:50 PM

< sigh >...

serb_guy

Jan 26, 2006, 01:42 PM

Shkodra was an Illyrian city, Skodra, built by the ancestors of the Albanians.

did you see teh post below? the one with the smiley, like this: :) ?

CivArmy s. 1994

Jan 26, 2006, 02:48 PM

I just read and learn about many European nations on my thread, u people r smart :goodjob:

Shqype

Jan 26, 2006, 06:59 PM

Welcome back CivArmy , we've missed you :)

CrazyDazyMan

Jan 27, 2006, 03:44 PM

People, the mod is simply attempting to simulate an empire-medieval at that-and not trying to claim cities as its own. Do not drag your nationalist frevor into this. I am from the balkans too and have lived through all the nationalism that drove us to kill our neighbors so please spare me your hollow ideals and stop argueing about how to spell KOSOVO. Its not in the game, its not in the mod so please spare us. This entire site is full of ethnic bickering that has nothing to do with the game. I came here to get some mods, not listen to Albanian, Croatian or even Serb nationalism. I get enough of all of them at home thank you very much!

CrazyDazyMan

Jan 27, 2006, 03:55 PM

one more thing:
obrigado civarmy! ;)

no puedo hablar portugeus pero espero que me entiendes en espanol; no les escuchan, esos huevones estan peleando sobre cosas inutiles. Estan mostrando que son fanaticos nacionalistas sin cualquier habilidad para dejar su mierda fuera de ese server. Yo soy serbio y me gusta ese mod mucho, MUITO OBRIGADO!!!

(translation-
thank you civarmy
great mod, I enjoy it a lot, good leader head, etc.)

levellord

Jan 31, 2006, 12:15 AM

Jeeee-sus!!! Shipika, will you, please, just stop flaming through the forums? I'm so tired of your post, it's just unbelievable. Whatever you have to prove, it is covered with some propaganda materials, not history facts... How do you really know about all this, have you been there ;) ? Man, k00l down, relax. It is not that anybody will belive you, you know? That is why you are writting down all this, to make people belive, right? C,c,c,c... Jesus... So, just relax, calm down, drink glass of water and play some Civ4! ;) Spare us from your opinions, nobody care...

Peace!

your buddy, levellord

Shqype

Jan 31, 2006, 01:13 AM

I am kindly asking you to refrain from using racial slurs: if you refer to me at all refer to me by my username, Shqype!

I have supported all of my arguments with historical facts. If you choose not to believe them, that is up to you, but for those with clear minds (and no biases) I'm sure they will appreciate the untold story that usually gets drowned out by Serbian propaganda.

Let me be the first to welcome you to the forums, but let me also be the first to advise you that your post was disrespectful. Please observe forum rules if you decide to post here. Thanks.

deo

Feb 01, 2006, 06:14 AM

Damn this thread is funny, damn also that my keyboard dosn't work, i have to write with the on-sceen kboard :(.

Hey shqype, i'll reply to you when i get a new kb ok?.

Shqype

Feb 01, 2006, 09:37 AM

Alright man, do t'merrsh sa ma shpejt :)

levellord

Feb 01, 2006, 05:56 PM

@Shqype

OK, I have to copy+paste your nick since I can not remember it, not to mention there is no way I can pronounce it. I'm terribly sorry about that, but, wow, I am deeply amazed how you put my ignorance as a racial slur! Wow, again! Not to mention, all I can see here; only one person is biased here, and I'm not going to say who is it, people just have to do a search on other topics which include serbs there, and bingo.
Hey, thanks for the warm welcome too! Too bad this is my last addressing to you, since you insulted me couple times in your last post and you insulted my folk and country numerous times here and in your other posts. That's it. I wish you all the best, and take care of yourself Shqype! :goodjob:

Regards,

levellord

Corey

Feb 12, 2006, 02:34 PM

Shqype,as much i try,I can't understand where do you find so much lies.You just try to launch some false "truth" to make people belive that you Albanians are peacefull people,while the truth is quite opposite.Whenever I run to some Albanian on some international forum(like this) he always has comments like
"die serbian guy" "get out of here" and so on.You are not like them but in other way you're the same.I know you want to poeple belive that Kosovo is your's but it isn't.Could you explain how ex-capital city was in Kosovo,why are there large number of Serbian monasteries old for thousand years,we fought with Ottomans on Kosova 1389!!Where where you back then.All Serbian menhud was lost since that battle.Your first appearance on Kosova was when Josip Broz Tito opened borders to your country.You entered Kosovo and started slowely etnic cleaning,until it rised up to terroristic measures.

Shqype

Feb 12, 2006, 03:21 PM

This is the type of propaganda encompassed by Serbian myth (like the national epic poems of Shkodra being built by Serbs when in fact it was built by Illyrians before Serbs even existed).

As reported by Constantine Porphyrogenitus (Emp. from 913-919), the Slavs Started to come to the Balkans from the Ural and the Caspian Sea during the reign of Emperor Heraclius (610-641). They were often led by nomadic Turks.46 The region, called at that time Illyria, was inhabited by the aborigine population, the Illyrians, the ancestors of the Albanians.

In the 12th century, according to a contemporary chronicler, W. of Tyre, the Serbs were "an uncultured and undisciplined people inhabiting the mountains and the forests" and who "sometimes ...

quit their mountains and forests... to ravage the surrounding countries", (cited by W. Miller, Essays on the Latin Orient, 1921, p. 446).

The Serbs began to gain strength in the 13th century when Stefan Simon Nemanjic - previously Zupan - started using, in 1217, the title of king.49 At that time the Serbs had already taken much land from the Albanians. In 1217, they conquered Peja (Pec) which was to become in 1346 the see of the Serbian Patriarch. The greater part of Kosova, however, was not yet in their power.50 It was afterward that they got hold of it little by little. But the Serbian kingdom, within the short span of its existence was not marked by fixity. Its precarious stability is indicated by a striking array of capitals: Raška, Priština, Belgrade, Kruševac, Smederevo, Belgrade again, Prizren, Banjska, Shkup (Skopje), Prilep, Smederovo, Kruševac again, Kragujevac.51 The names of these short-lived capitals suggest that the Serbs invaded and conquered, but then retreated and lost, because of some kind of opposition that they found. In this regard, it is interesting to note an observation made by V. Cubrilovic in his rather inhumane memorandum:52 "The Albanians are the only people during the last millennium that managed not only to resist the nucleus of our state, but also to harm us". This remark indicates that the Serbs were opposed by the aboriginal population.

When Stefan Dušan was killed in 1355, the Serbian Empire included not merely Kosova; it encompassed practically all of present Albania, Greece, Bulgaria, and part of Hungary. Yet the Empire had no fixity and lasted merely nine years. It had been built up with the help of mercenaries and it disintegrated immediately after Dušan's death because of the heterogeneous elements of which it was composed: Vlachs, Greeks, Albanians, etc.

As for the Beteja e Fush Kosoves 1389, the Battle of Kosova, it was led by Serbs, but fought by a Balkan coalition. The reason the battle was lost because the Lazar Brankovic was a traitor:
True, for instance, the Battle of Kosova, so greatly exalted by the Serbo-Montenegrins since Karadzic's time, was an important and sad event for the Slavs. However, when viewed objectively, one must concede that this battle, as specialist have not failed to remark - was not fought by the Serbs alone, but by a coalition of Balkan nations: Bulgarians, Greeks, Vlachs, and Albanians57 (including 10 000 Croats). As a consequence, these nations should be imparted the merit due to them. Various sources suggest that the most numerous troops were the Albanian and that they were placed in the front rows.57 Besides, the victory of the Turks in that battle is said to have been occasioned by the treason of Lazar Brankovic, Knez Lazar's son-in-law, who deserted to the Turks at the critical point of the battle with a large number of Serbs.58

J.G. von Hahn, who believed in the Illyro-Albanian continuity, had no doubts, when he visited Kosova that the Albanians had been living there since ancient times. He regarded the region of Sitnica as constituting a pure Albanian link between Dardania and Albania.61

As for 17th century, important are, among others, the writings of the Turkish chronicle Evlija Celebi which clearly indicate that prior to the Austro-Turkish Wars the Albanian population was overwhelmingly present in Western Macedonia, in Montenegro and in the Vilayet of Kosova (E. Celebi, Putopis, Sarajevo, 1973, pp. 136-137). Mention should also be made, for the same epoch, of pastoral reports - that of the Papal Envoy, Pietro Massarechi (Mazreku, born in Prizren who succeeded M. Bizzi) dating from 1623 specifies that at that time, the population of Prizren was made up of 12 000 Moslem Albanians, 200 Catholic Albanians and 600 Serbs and that the population of Shkup (Skopje) was also mainly Albanian.100 Likewise, the Austrian documents pertaining to the Austro-Turkish Wars give evidence that the Austrian army was continuously in touch with an Albanian population. These documents refer to Prizren as the Capital of Albania and to Pjeter Bogdani, Archbishop od Shkup, as Archbishop of Albania.101 Various incidents linked to the Austro-Turkish Wars, as related by T. Ippen (in Novibazar und Kossovo,(das Alte Rascien) eine Studie, Vienna, 1892), who used Austrian War documents - as did J. Tomic - make it obvious that in Kosova the Austrian army had to deal with an Albanian population.

Dr. Vaso Cubrilovic, a Serbian, wrote a Memorandum on how to rid Kosova of the Albanians and settle the land with Serbs:
There was some concern that obstacles of international import might arise, but in a memorandum to the Royal Government on March 7, 1937, Dr. Vaso Cubrilovic had this to say:

At a time when Germany can expel tens of thousands of Jews and Russia can shift tens of millions of people from one point of the continent to another, the shifting of few hundred thousand Albanians will not lead to the outbreak of a World War.

The Albanians intended to be expatriated were not to be allowed compensation for their loss of property.

The means that were to be used for this removal are explicitly mentioned by V. Cubrilovic. Below are picked at random and transcribed some recommendations contained in his memorandum:

...agitators to advocate the removal by describing the beauties of the new territories in Turkey; refusal to recognize the old land deeds; ruthless collection of taxes; threats; withdrawal of permits to exercise a profession; dismissal from state, private and communal office; destruction of cemeteries; ill-treatment of clergy. Conflicts between Albanians and Montenegrins should be prepared and encouraged and should be either presented as conflicts between clans or attributed to economical reasons. These will be bloodily suppressed with the most efficacious means. In the colonization process, the role of the police should be of foremost importance; settles should be mostly Montenegrins because they are arrogant and merciless and would drive the Albanians away with their behavior; from the ethnic standpoint, the Macedonians will unite with us only when they enjoy true ethnic support from the Serbian motherland, which they have lacked to this day; this they will achieve only through the destruction of the Albanian block. Settlement should begin in villages, then in towns.118

http://www.alb-net.com/juka2.htm

Read that, it is called "The Albanians in Yugoslavia in Light of Historical Documents." It is has footnotes and sources, fact based on documents which weighs much more than the nationalist myth you are spewing.

PlatinumS

Feb 12, 2006, 11:42 PM

Hi Shqype, I just replyed to your PM. After reading the post above I have a question. Since you belive that Kosovo/a should be Albanian because it has a majority Albanian population. I was wondering what your views are on Republic of Serbian Krajina(Croatia), why couldnt it get independence seeing as it did have a majority Serb population as far as I know. Sorry if thats going off topic. Good nitght.:)

Shqype

Feb 13, 2006, 12:07 AM

To be honest I really don't know about that to be able to comment effectively. One thing I do know is that the present-day political borders of the Balkan countries are severely messed up, and need to be fixed to provide stability in the Balkans and Europe.

An interesting fact about General Wesley Clark, former US commander, regarding the war in Kosova:
When Russian tanks were marching in to Prishtina airport to capture the city, Wesley Clark ordered a British helicopterman to bomb the tanks, because he knew the Russians and the Serbs had strong ethnic links with each other, and were allies. The British refused to obey his orders, stating that he wasn't going to be responsible for the start of World War III.

Subsequently, Wesley Clark was relieved from duty because of this incident. Just thought it was an interesting piece of information I'de share :)

Profa

Feb 20, 2006, 09:16 AM

How can you talk suck nonesense? I mean, OK, you are šiptar, you can love your country, but not like that. That city list is completely true. Serbia and Montenegro always wanted to be united in one country, called Srbija (now they want to separate, but that's not the matter). Even Njegoš, in Gorski vijenac said he was a Serb living in Montenegro. And about Kosovo i Metohija? Do you know what Metoh iz? It is a church property. A Ortodox church property. It always was and always will be Serbian motherland. Why were the Serbs the ones trying to hold off Turks to save the rest of the Europe? Why didn't Albanians do it? I'll tell you. Because there was the Serbian capitol. Where were you back then? On the mountains. Serbs SET FREE Skadar during first Balkan war in 1912. Then, Austria took it away from us. I know this is my first post. And, in the beginning, I didn't want to register at all. But you made me do it. It is a shame what some people are saying. PlatinumS, listen to both sides before you decide who to trust.

Shqype

Feb 20, 2006, 09:43 AM

PlatinumS listened to both sides, he asked and I sent him some sources: Documented proof (by people other than Albanians). He approached the issue with an open mind, and that was intelligence on his part.

"šiptar" which you have used is a racist, derogatory term Slavs use for Albanians, not only do I not appreciate it but it is extremely disrespectful and I ask you to refrain from using such language before it gets you banned from these forums.

What you have provided is tainted. Some of you here claim that I am a nationalist making things up to better my country. Of course I am a nationalist (I have alot to be proud of), but I'm not making things up. I know what I know through my own experiences, through people that have lived through history and witnessed it with their eyes, and through the various text books, documents, and sources I have come across to learn much more.

You guys have a version of history, which are biased claims that are largely unfounded. What I have said I have given some sources to back up.

What about Vaso Cubrilovic? He was certainly a Serbian nationalist:
from Wikipedia
Vaso Čubrilović was born in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1897. He was a student in Sarajevo, when Danilo Ilić recruited him and his friend, Cvjetko Popović, to help assassinate Archduke Franz Ferdinand. His brother, Veljko Čubrilović, was also involved in the plot.

On Sunday, 28th June, 1914, Franz Ferdinand and Countess Sophie were assassinated by Gavrilo Princip. Princip and Nedeljko Čabrinović were captured and interogated by the police. They eventually gave the names of their fellow conspirators. Muhamed Mehmedbašić who managed to escape to Serbia, but Vaso Čubrilović, Danilo Ilić, Veljko Čubrilović, Cvjetko Popović and Miško Jovanović were arrested and charged with treason and murder.

Eight of the men charged with treason and the murder of Archduke Franz Ferdinand were found guilty. Under Austro-Hungarian law, capital punishment could not be imposed on someone who was under the age of twenty when they had committed the crime. Nedjelko Čabrinović, Gavrilo Princip and Trifko Grabež therefore received the maximum penalty of twenty years. Vaso Čubrilović got 16 years and Cvjetko Popović 13 years. Miško Jovanović, Danilo Ilić and Veljko Čubrilović, who helped the assassins kill the royal couple, were executed on 3rd February, 1915.

Vaso Čubrilović was released when the Allies defeated the Central Powers in November 1918. He became a teacher in Sarajevo and went on to become a university professor in Belgrade. After World War II, Vaso Čubrilović served as Minister of Forests in Yugoslavia's government.

Yet he admitted that the indigenous Albanian population were the only people in the last millenium of Serbian history to not only have resisted the Serbian state, but also to harm the Serbs. His memorandum is entitled "Expulsion of the Albanians," and it is essentially a guide on what must be done to rid Kosova of the Albanians so that the Serbs can completely settle it.

Read my last post on the 3rd page if you're interested. I'm not going to spend too much time because if you fail to read documents and believe that there might be something wrong the ultranationalist Serbian education you have recieved then you will never listen to what I have to say.

All I will say is I'll be releasing some civs within the next day or two: download them :)

Los Tirano

Feb 20, 2006, 08:23 PM

So the Cetniks are easily the best infrantry in the world?

Looked up a bit of history and thought they certainly qualify to be a UU, personally I would make them cheaper, a little weaker, but with a bonus to city attack. Or cheap with defensive bonuses.

damir_k87

Feb 21, 2006, 07:31 AM

HAHA OVO JE PRAVI CETNICKI MOD!

opet ste dokazali koji ste cetnici mamu vam vasu.
mislio sam vam reci da uzmete cetnika kao special unit da vas zajebavam malo, a ovi fasisti ga zaprave uzeli. Trebali ste jos samo staviti milosevica kao prjedsjednika i mladica i karadzica da vam budu "great people".

Sarajevo, Zenica, Banja Luka i ostali bosansko-hercegovacki gradovi nece nikad bit vasi. o tome samo mozete sanjati i "modovati" u igricama :lol: :lol:
vi ste stvarno zalosna gamad i sto je jos gore ne sramotite samo sebe nego cjeli srpski narod, jer ja znam da nisu svi srbi ko vi ali vas dosta opet ima sa tim cetncikim mentalitetom.

Zato vam se ja poserem na vas CIV, i ako opet buedete pravili Srbiju, pravite je o onom malom djelu "Velike Srbije" sto vam je ostalo. Ne kradite od BIH il cak od Hrvata. Ni Turci vama nekradu vase gradove kad prave Turski CIV!!! :D

This is an English-language forum, and everyone here speaks English, so please post in English in the future. Thanks...

Velja

Feb 21, 2006, 07:40 AM

HAHA OVO JE PRAVI CETNICKI MOD!

opet ste dokazali koji ste cetnici mamu vam vasu.
mislio sam vam reci da uzmete cetnika kao special unit da vas zajebavam malo, a ovi fasisti ga zaprave uzeli. Trebali ste jos samo staviti milosevica kao prjedsjednika i mladica i karadzica da vam budu "great people".

Sarajevo, Zenica, Banja Luka i ostali bosansko-hercegovacki gradovi nece nikad bit vasi. o tome samo mozete sanjati i "modovati" u igricama :lol: :lol:
vi ste stvarno zalosna gamad i sto je jos gore ne sramotite samo sebe nego cjeli srpski narod, jer ja znam da nisu svi srbi ko vi ali vas dosta opet ima sa tim cetncikim mentalitetom.

Zato vam se ja poserem na vas CIV, i ako opet buedete pravili Srbiju, pravite je o onom malom djelu "Velike Srbije" sto vam je ostalo. Ne kradite od BIH il cak od Hrvata. Ni Turci vama nekradu vase gradove kad prave Turski CIV!!! :DA Brazillian made a mod you poor bastard. Ask yourself why didnt he make your nation.

P.S.
Proud to be chetnik.

Refrain as much as possible from trolling. We do not need it here.

Civrules

Feb 23, 2006, 04:56 PM

This thread has gone way off topic (do you need me to tell you this?). Profa, if the term you use is offensive to another member, do not use it. It is that simple and requires little effort. Sqype, ignore his posts and do not respond to them (yes, even if you have already reported). There is no need to continue this Off-Topic discussion. If you want to continue, make space for it in the OT forum while still respecting the forum rules.

Some Off-Topic posts have been deleted, and I don't want to see any more or they'll just get deleted without warning.

damir_k87

Feb 23, 2006, 06:24 PM

Public discussion of mod actions is not allowed. If you have something to say, either PM me or Thunderfall.
Furthermore, this is not only continuing off-topic, but it is trolling.

player1 fanatic

Feb 23, 2006, 07:51 PM

I liked Velja's mod better ;)

Velja

Feb 24, 2006, 03:30 AM

I liked Velja's mod better ;)Thanks :)

P.S.
TO MODERATORS:

You should have deleted everytyhing starting from that non-English post.

Profa

Feb 24, 2006, 07:19 AM

OK, sorry, I got a bit carried away, but I couldn't read Shqype's comments without replying on them. At first, I only tried to get some information about the mod. But the Kosovo i Metohija discussion was already ongoing, so I decided to register just to reply to things that are insults to me (just like Shqype doesn't want me to call him the way i did). That's the end from me.

Corey

Feb 26, 2006, 01:17 PM

One more note,sry for double post.
This is from his profile,Shqype.
Shqype
Mbret
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: New York + Shqypni
Posts: 630
It's also reply for above quote.
"siptar" is Albanian,and it's translated into english as Shiqptar or something like that.Now look at his profile.
Nick: Shqype
Location: Shqypni
He said he got offended by that word just to make us guilty but "accidentally" he uses that words for him....
my two cents.

Shqype

Feb 26, 2006, 01:34 PM

The correct term is Shqiptar / Shqyptar, what you use is a derogatory and pejorative term. Respect is important on these forums, and using such a condescending term is disrespectful.

In any case, why not download my Albanian mod and play with the civilization? ;)

player1 fanatic

Feb 26, 2006, 03:47 PM

By the way what exactly the correct S word (not offending one) represents. Another name for Albanians?

Just curios, not ment to offend...

P.S.
And how is it pronounced?
Is it like english sciptar (with sh instead of s)?

Shqype

Feb 26, 2006, 04:20 PM

The word Shqyptar was used by Albanians to remind themselves of the glorious rebellion of Gjergj Kastrioti against the Turks, at a time when they were under the Turkish occupation. This word was used around the 17th/18th centuries and onward. However, the double-headed eagle symbol is ancient and was used during, and before, Illyrian times. Shqyptar means "son of the eagle," and it was first used as a reference to the double-headed eagle Gjergj Kastrioti raised to declare independence from the Ottoman Empire during the 15th century.

Before this, Albanians called themselves "Arbnesh." The southern Albanians that migrated to Italy after Gjergj Kastrioti's rebellion to escape the coming Dark Age under Turkish Occupation are called "Arberesh." (One of the main differences between the dialects of the north and the south is that the southern dialect underwent rhotacism):

Another source of confusion from historical sources may come from a transformation of "-n-" into "-r-", called "rhotacism", which took place in the Southern (Tosk) dialects and prevails in the literary language. Hence, the Greek/Latin "Avlona" which gave the Italian Valona" is now "Vlora".

Thus, the Arbnesh in the south were called Arberesh, and these people migrated into Italy (namely Calabria). Today they still speak an archaic form of the Albanian language.

Shqiptar has no correct pronunciation in English, because the "q" sound does not exist in English. The closest sound available to "q" in Albanian is "ç" which is in the English language as "ch." The "q" sound is different from this and has no sound like it in any other language.

http://argjiro.net/albi/green/?book=2&chapter=0&subchapter=0

That is a pronunciation guide on the letters/sounds of the Albanian language, it should be what you're looking for.

Also, I thank you for your balance suggestions, player1_fanatic, and I gave you a spot in the credits section of the readme.txt file. Please download the new version of the mod and tell me what you think of it. The UU is much more balanced now :)

Ferital

Feb 28, 2006, 08:32 PM

This Shqype is a very boring man, but still amusing. Amusing because what he considers as historical facts is nothing more than Albanian propaganda, and what Serbs considered as historical facts are for him propaganda.

The best example of Shqype's propaganda is the map of a fictious division of Albania by the Turks. In fact, there was no Albania at that time. There were some Albanian territories, which were approximately situated in what is now today Albania. And there were also some Serbian territories, with some of its population being Albanian, but it was a minority. One of such territories is the Brankovic's lands, which correspond approximately to 80% of modern Kosovo. In these 80% Kosovo, lived, according to Turkish cadastral tax census in 1455:

* 12,985 Serbian dwellings present in all 480 villages and towns
* 75 Vlach dwellings in 34 villages
* 46 Albanian dwellings in 23 villages
* 17 Bulgarian dwellings in 10 villages
* 5 Greek dwellings in Lauša, Vučitrn
* 1 Jewish dwelling in Vučitrn
* 1 Croat dwelling

So Shqype, the Serbs could have lied to prove that there were no Albanians in Kosovo in the Middle Ages. But the Turks had no reason to lie about this. So, maybe the population in the 20% remaining parts of Kosovo was Albanian? I don't believe this. Because the Slavic element was so strong, even in Albania were so many cities are of a pure Slavic origin, like Pogradec, Celigrad, Maliq, Novosele,... Skanderbeg mother was a Serbian Princess, Vojisava. In fact, Skanderbeg loved Serbs, spoke Serbian, worn Serbian clothes and even wrote in Serbian.

These are facts, not propaganda. These facts are proven by MANY MANY sources.

And sorry for my poor English, I'm French and I only learned English at school.

So, some real facts by one of your historians, Kaplan Resuli:

The oldest evidenced text in an Albanian language is “Formula ë paleximit” (Formula for communion), translated from Latin in 8-11-1462 by the Montenegrin Pavle Angelic, whom the Albanians have albanised with the name Pal Engjylli. The first book in Albanian is “Meshari” (The Book of Thoughts), a manual for religious sermons, dates from 1555 and is written by the Croatian Ivan Buzuk and published in Montenegro. And, understandably, they albanise him with the name Gjon Buzuku. For your information, the first primer in Albanian, after the proclamation of the Albanian independence is a work of “Slavs” and Vlachs. Dositej Obradovich is the first in history who opens a school in Albanian language, while it was exactly Serbia, which was the first state to recognise independent Albania. The Macedonians have a significant input in the development of the Albanian culture. For example, one of the oldest publishers in Albania is the Macedonian Petar Budi (1566-1622) who has published three books in Albanian, and also a Macedonian is Jovan Kukuzel, whom the Albanians have claimed as their own and have albanised with the name Jan Kukuzeli, although it is known that when he was born in Drach, XI century, here there still is not even one Albanian. Let me remind you also of Grigor Prlichev (1830-1893) who for some time is a teacher in Tirana and published the wonderful poem “Skenderbeg”. Undeniable is the fact that always at the forefront of all of their positive processes the Albanians had namely non-Albanians. Lets mention, as well, at this opportune time only Georgi Kastriot – Skenderbeg, of an undeniable “slavic” ancestry, Naim Frasheri (a Vlach, an Albanian national poet) or Fan Noli (a Greek, whose real name is Theophanous Mavromatis), Petar Bogdan, a Serb, or Ismail Kemali, a Turk who was proclaiming the Albanian independence in 1912. As you can see, the foundations of the Albanian culture and statehood are laid by non Albanians, from which a large number are “Slavs”, but that does not stand in the way of the Albanian nationalists, or “Marxists Leninists”, all the same, to thump their chests and declare that they have achieved everything by themselves and that the other people (nations), especially the “Slavs” have only been their enemies.

On the territory of today’s Albania, as has already been confirmed by the most distinguished world scholars, from whom I have already mentioned some, first settled the Slavs. In 548 A.D., they enter also in Durrachium (Drach, Durrës). The Albanians come via Transylvania (Romania) and Bulgaria much later, IX-X century. In the meantime, understandably, the Slavs have already named all mountains, valleys, rivers, towns and villages, and built some new ones, giving them their own names. When the Albanians arrive on the Balkan and today’s Albania, there is nothing else they can do except to take those toponyms. A large part of Albania is flooded with Serbian and Macedonian toponyms. Just as an example, I wish to mention the towns of Pogradec, Korça (Korcha), Çorovoda (Chorovoda), Berat, Bozigrad, Leskovik, Voskopoja, Kuzova, Kelcira, Bels and others.

Actually, it can be supposed that if the Turks did not come to the Balkans, the Albanian language in not more than 100-200 years would have been completely “slavicised”. The Serbian, Macedonian and Bulgarian languages have penetrated so much into the Albanian language that they have flooded not only the lexicon, but they have displaced its phonetics, morphology and syntax. Besides the significant cultural prestige of these languages compared to the Albanian, this is also due to the significant albanisation of not a small number of Serbs, Macedonians and Montenegrins, especially the ones who were previously islamised. As it is known, the Albanians have a strongly developed power of assimilation. That a good part of them by origin is Serbs, Macedonians or Montenegrins, is witnessed by their patrons, surnames, but many of them even today speak their “slavic” language. In Albania, there are whole regions along the border, especially towards Macedonia, settled with a compact “slavic” population, which is even more numerous, lets say, than the Albanians in Macedonia.

I have already mentioned about the Illyrians, but the second ethnonym to which they pretend, the Dardanians, it is known, were not Illyrians, but Thracians. Even if they (Dardanians) had been Illyrians, again they haven’t any connection with the Albanians, because that kind of connection neither have the Illyrians themselves. Science has proven that very clearly. In respect of the Albanoi (an) s, they are a Celtic tribe, which on the territory of Albania, in the region Mat, arrives in the IV century BC. Today’s Albanians, actually, only much, much later take over their name, as have done today’s Bulgarians from the non slavic Bulgars of Asparuh, or today’s French, from the old Germanic Franks, deforming the old Celtic name Arlbn/Arlbr. Arbanasi is the other name with which our ancestors the “Slavs” are naming them during the Middle Ages. Arnauts is the name, which the Turks use for them. It should be known that not all Arnauts were at the same time Albanians, as well. Because the Arnauts (Albanians) got a reputation as good hired hands in the Turkish Empire, the other mercenaries were also called Arnauts. That means that there were Serbs, Montenegrins and Macedonians ARNAUTS, because some of them are also islamised, thus as Muslims they serve under the Turkish flag not only as common soldiers, but also as arnauts (mercenaries). Skiptar (or Shiptar and deformed Shiftar, all originate from the Albanian appellative Shqiptar) is the current national name of the Albanians, spread amongst them in the XVII-XIX century, influenced by the name Osman, as the Turks were naming themselves. Namely, osman in Turkish is “eagle”, while in Albanian it is “shquipe”. Thus, the Albanians of Muslim faith wanted to relate themselves with the Muslims Turks, which was also the aim of the Porte, even of the original platform of the Prizren League, which originally is not Albanian at all, but pan Islamic. And if its primary aims succeeded, most probably the Albanians would not exist today because all of them in the meantime would have become Turks.

Shqype

Feb 28, 2006, 11:35 PM

I will not comment too much on your post, I will only say a few things:
Because the Slavic element was so strong, even in Albania were so many cities are of a pure Slavic origin, like Pogradec, Celigrad, Maliq, Novosele,
These Slavic toponyms replaced the former Illyrian and Roman ones during the Bulgarian occupation. They had almost the whole Balkans at one time, and because of the Bulgarians there are many Slavic words in the Albanian language, and there are Slavic names for some cities.

... Skanderbeg mother was a Serbian Princess, Vojisava. In fact, Skanderbeg loved Serbs, spoke Serbian, worn Serbian clothes and even wrote in Serbian.
False, completely and utterly. Gjergj Kastrioti's mother was from the South. The southerners were Greek influenced, and the Greeks are Orthodox, but she wasn't slavic.

As for the rest, it is false, except for his language. Sure, he spoke Slavic, but he spoke 7 languages, so it's no wonder he spoke that one as well.

And sorry for my poor English, I'm French and I only learned English at school.
Unfortunately the French have historically been pro-Serbian and anti-Albanian. What can one do?

All the "information" that you have provided is tainted and propaganda, and I could prove it wrong if I were so interested, (like the term Shqyptar has nothing to do with 'Osman' and it was first used by Catholic peasants and in literature by the Roman Catholic clergy), but it is not important. I have neither the time nor the energy, and I understand that it won't sway you either way.

Have a good night, and keep believing what you'de like to.

Malesori

Mar 01, 2006, 12:49 AM

player1 fanatic

Mar 01, 2006, 02:21 AM

That's Turkish census, I don't see then "siding" with Serbs.

As for Kosovo land it was probably contensted land even befiore 800 years. It also had losts of shifts in population then and now. For example if there would not be so many ortodox churces from medieval period if there was not lots of Serbs there in that period. Nor would center of Serbian patriarchy be made in Pec, if there was not lots of Serbs around (just common sense).

That's why I would almost take it as insult calling Serbs in Kosovo "colonist". If someone settled before 800 years it's hardly anymore colonist. It had roots in that area.

Now many Serbs did leave that erea even in old times. And many settled in Hugary and Austria borders, becoming "Kraisnici" (border guards). Actually that's pretty much an orgin for Croatian Serbian conflict (with border guards having more rights then local peasants).

In recent times (last centurty) many Albianians have immigrated to Kosovo too. Like at Tito time when there were better living conditions in Kosovo then Albania (and when Serbian WWI colonist could not return to Kosovo). As well as after 1999.

So shifts in population occur. Maybe before 2000 year there were only Illirians.
(and England with only Celts, no Angles, Saxons or Normans)
Before 800 there were lots of Serbs. At the begginging of 20 century there were some Serbs, at the beggining of 21 century there is very little of Serbs.

damir_k87

Mar 01, 2006, 03:22 AM

BLABLA BLA
albanian this, serbian that...

first i don't see why u are arguing with these people Shqype in the first place. It is like arguing against Nazis during the late 1930's that Hitler is evil and that Nazis are wrong. You are just wasting your time. These people grew up listening to Milosevic and Karadzic and now you want to "educate" them. That's a joke

Second, to the people who made this mod, next time either call it Cetnicki mod or "Great" Serbia mod so that any Albanians/Bosnians/Croats know what this is b4 downloading it and finding themselves insulted.

deo

Mar 01, 2006, 05:55 AM

player1 fanatic

Mar 01, 2006, 06:08 AM

Why hate posts like this?
I haven't seen other Serbian posters that replyed recently that support this mod (as I said I like Velja mod more).

It's more an argue about diffrerent claims on Kosovo. Historically and more recently. It's interesting discussion, at least for me to see battle of difference oppinions on same subject.

Second, to the people who made this mod, next time either call it Cetnicki mod or "Great" Serbia mod so that any Albanians/Bosnians/Croats know what this is b4 downloading it and finding themselves insulted.

If it makes you any easier, I do support this. It is indeed to nationalistic for my taste.

And it's not people it's one person who made it.

damir_k87

Mar 01, 2006, 06:20 AM

You should watch you'r comments or you are going to be banned.

What was wrong with my comment? Tell me cuz I wanna know. If you aren't a moderator then who are you to tell me what to do?

IF YOU ARE a moderator, then I want to ask you, what is this "civilization" doing here at civfanatics.com??? This CIV is the by far most insulting thing that I've seen done in Civilization 1,2,3 or 4. I imagine the moderators here are some Americans who don't even know what has happened in Bosnia. You may not even know where it is. How can the moderators then understand what this CIV is representing? How can you understand how insulting it is to see the Serbian list of cities include Bosnian cities such as Sarajevo, Banja Luka... or the special unit Cetnik or the leader that they picked.......

Once again, this CIV should not be allowed here on civfanatics.com because it is nationalistic, facist, racist ... you name it. The only place where I can see it allowed, would be with a domain name that ends with ".yu".

player1 fanatic

Mar 01, 2006, 06:28 AM

What was wrong with my comment? Tell me cuz I wanna know. If you aren't a moderator then who are you to tell me what to do?

Calling all Serbs that posted here as ultranationalists and comparing them to nazis?

player1 fanatic

Mar 01, 2006, 06:34 AM

Serbian list of cities include Bosnian cities such as Sarajevo, Banja Luka...

Note that before war there was Serb population in Sarajevo and that Banja Luka is mostly Serb populated. Still not in Serbia but in one of the parts of Bosna and Hercegovina (currently called Serbian Republic, in original Republika Srpska).

or the leader that they picked.......

Now that's too far!
What's wrong with Karadjordje?

He liberated Serbia from Turks (at least for some time). He is a national hero.

deo

Mar 01, 2006, 07:01 AM

@damir_k87

Im a Kosovo Albanian you fool :lol:

damir_k87

Mar 01, 2006, 07:23 AM

@damir_k87

Im a Kosovo Albanian you fool :lol:

YOU are the fool buddy. Telling me to shut up and whatch what I say, what else are you gonna do? support this CIV that they made. You should be ashamed of yourself brother, instead of telling these Cetniks to shut up, who by the way themselves say that they are proud Cetniks.

Nah. What do you do? U start a** kissing them. Preventing any criticism against their "CIV". And you call urself a Kosovo Albanian?!

The person who made this CIV is the same person that believes that Kosovo should be ethnically clinsed, who believes that Srebrenica never happened even after seeing the video footage, who believes that his country stratches over the whole Balkans even though it is getting smaller by the decade, it's the same person who supported Karadzic and Mladic through the bloddy war.

You should be ashamed of urselves just as much as these Cetniks who are in support of this CIV.

Shqype

Mar 01, 2006, 07:42 AM

damir_87, again, watch what you say. Do not be a hypocrite. In the former Yugoslavia free speech may not have been allowed, but in the United States, where this forum is based, it is. Free speech has its limits on this forum for obvious reasons, but they have a right to speak.

Nobody is saying here that anyone should be murdered. While I appreciate your comments about it being useless to "educate" some such people, that have been taught one thing since their cradle and will believe it until they die, you do cross a line and it is important to be more respectful. I understand that this may be an emotional topic for you, but for that reason please stay out of it so that you don't post something that will get you banned.

Serbs have a right to their history and to their patriotism just like you do. Of course, some tend to overdo it and merit loss of such rights when they extend it to trample over the rights of others (as they have done in the past and still do). And not all of them are like that. player1_fanatic here seems to be a pretty fair guy. He at least listens, unlike some other people.

who believes that his country stratches over the whole Balkans even though it is getting smaller by the decade,
:lol:
What I find sad is that at the crucial time for the decision on the final status of Kosova, Serbia magically "locates" Ratko Mladic, and is finally willing to cooperate with the international community in turning him in for war crimes. They have been great politicians, and through their use of propaganda and politics, they have largely been able to get what they want.

Ferital

Mar 01, 2006, 10:52 AM

I will not comment too much on your post, I will only say a few things:

These Slavic toponyms replaced the former Illyrian and Roman ones during the Bulgarian occupation. They had almost the whole Balkans at one time, and because of the Bulgarians there are many Slavic words in the Albanian language, and there are Slavic names for some cities.

False, these toponyms do not come from Bulgarians, but from numerous Slavic tribes. There were not only Croats, Serbs and Bulgarians in the Balkans, at the beginning of the Slavic invasions. There were hundreds of tribes, and these tribes settled even in the center of Greece. Where they were the most important group, the Slavs dominated the land and assimilated the indigenous population. Where they were less in number, like in Greece, Albania or Romania, they were assimilated by the Latin-speakers in Romania, speakers of some old dialect mostly coming from Illyrian, in what would become Albania in the future, and Greek speakers in the Greek peninsula. You know, I have a very good Albanian friend (she's Tosk), studying politics in Rome. She agrees with me that the purity of Illyrian origins of modern Albanians is nothing more than a dream. In fact, it is impossible, in the Balkans, to be of a pure origin of this or that. So Albanians have Slavic origins, Illyrian origins, some Turkish origins, Greek origins in this South, and even some very little Italian origins. This is what a modern Albanian is. Not an Illyrian, not a Dardanian, but an Albanian, nothing more, nothing less. And this is also what exactly a Serb is. Serbian origins are not purely Slavic, this is totally absurd. All modern Serbian scholars and historians agree with the fact that Serbs have a lot of Vlach and Illyrian blood. If Serbs are a Slavic people, it's only by their culture, like Albanians think they are Illyrians, although they may have a little in common with what were the Illyrians.

False, completely and utterly. Gjergj Kastrioti's mother was from the South. The southerners were Greek influenced, and the Greeks are Orthodox, but she wasn't Slavic.

As for the rest, it is false, except for his language. Sure, he spoke Slavic, but he spoke 7 languages, so it's no wonder he spoke that one as well.

You can believe that it's false, but you have to come with some arguments to prove that. You know Leopold von Ranke? It's a German historian, probably the most scientist of all time in his methods. He considered Skenderbeg as a Slav. And this is what said Paul Rovinski, a Russian emissary during the 19th:

"...in the time of national awakening for the Albanians - Skenderbeg was as much of a Serb as he was an Albanian...in him there was much Serb blood. His mother Vojislava was a Serb princess and the names of most of Skenderbeg's sisters were Serb...
Mara
Jela
Angelina
Vlajica
and his brothers were:
Stanisa
Konstantin
Skenderbeg's sister Mara was married to Stefan Crnojevic, lord of Zeta, who with the Zetans helped Skenderbeg for 24 years in the wars against the Turks. According to the Catholic priest of Shkodra Marin Barleci, the Turks unearhed Skenderbeg's remains and distributed them amongst themsleves 'as souveniers.

This is from Paul Rovinski, and he is quoting a catholic priest. You should note that in those times, Serbs and Albanians were allied. They became enemies only during the Turkish rule.

Unfortunately the French have historically been pro-Serbian and anti-Albanian. What can one do?

You really don't know the French people, guy. The French in general have been more propagandists against Serbia during the 90's than the UK or the USA. And I tell you that, being French and living in France. The media in France is almost as controlled as CNN or CBS, and if our government decides to war against Serbia with his NATO allies, the media will follow immediately. If the French government decides not to ally with the USA against Iraq, the media will follow immediately. And most people in France consider this as normal, altough these two wars were crazy, but because they don't understand the meaning of "democratic totalitarism", the new ideology ruling the Earth. As a consequence, French people that do not believe the propaganda don't have the right to speak. And I'm quite sure that's it's the same in America. So, four our divergent opinions about history in the Balkans, what I say do not come from any French documentation, but from Albanians like Lubonja or Resuli, Serbs like Batakovic, Americans like Wilkes, Germans like von Ranke, and many others.

All the "information" that you have provided is tainted and propaganda, and I could prove it wrong if I were so interested, (like the term Shqyptar has nothing to do with 'Osman' and it was first used by Catholic peasants and in literature by the Roman Catholic clergy), but it is not important. I have neither the time nor the energy, and I understand that it won't sway you either way.

No because what you say, you never proved it. I read this so many times, but never with good arguments. It's like the original Illyrian theory, coming from anti-Serbian Austrians, did not change for one century. You only say what you think is the truth. Are you originated from Kosovo? Because what you say, nobody believes it anymore in Albania. Most part of what you're saying is demystified now, like Skanderbeg being a valorous defender of the Albanian cause. The truth is that he absolutely doesn't care about his people, like most aristocrats have always done. He was a tyrannical individual, like were most Serbian kings, French kings, English ones,...

Have a good night, and keep believing what you'de like to.

You too. I like you, you're so funny: when you speak about Albania, you're exactly as my Serbian friends when they speak about Serbia. Read John Wilkes, take a coffee, read Lubonja, take another coffee and it will be done.

Ferital

Mar 01, 2006, 11:32 AM

Ferital, With much respect you sound like a very smart guy. Your English is great if you ask me, but I am not responding to praise you. Shqype when he claims of Serb propoganda is mostly all true facts. I say mostly because I have not had the pleasure to read all his posts. Many Scholars and Historians agree with the Albanian side of the of history than the Serbian one. I know for myself because I have read from both sources. Serbian History is based on a Myth. They are taught about the big battle in Kosove in 1389. A Battle in which the serbs lost. Not only serbs but also Albanians, bulgarians, Hungarian....etc. This battle the the creation of Stefan Dusan's Empire which lasted about 8 years is what is serbs are taught about. The monasteries that are in Kosove were pushed to be built by their Saint Sava. Kosove has not always been Albanian majority. No historian denies that. Your are stating the obvious with your census. The Demographics in Kosove changed multiple number of times. Since the first Slavic tribes came in 6-7 C.E. The serbs themselves do not know why they claim Kosova. Their claim on Kosova is not based on any census of any year. It is in their minds from a lost battle, and from a period expansion of the serbian empire under Stefan. The monasteries play a huge role also in the serbian myth. Just because of a lost battle in 1389, some monasteries (built by Sava all over), and empire Kosova should belong to serbia.

I have read Kaplan Resuli's works. He is not the right person represent the Albanian. He is of Bulgarian/Macedonian descent. He has always wrote about Albania's greatest figures not being Albanians with very little facts. You have cited one source that is tainted. Anyone with a finger can google Mr. Resuli's thoughts. What makes him more right then Shqype. Don't read that propoganda.

If you want true Albanian History read from Non-Albanians and Non- Slavs. Don't get me wrong they know there stuff too, but the outsider is less prone to taking a particular side. History is written by the winner. When the borders were made after the fall of Ottoman Empire. Serbia won of Albania's lands thanks to MOTHER RUSSIA.

Thanks for this answer Malesori. As you did not praise me, I will not praise you. You said most scholars and historians agree with the Albanian side. This is purely political. Go check John Wilkes, he thinks Illyrian blood is more present in Serbian and Croatian veins than in Albanians veins. He wrote his book The Illyrians in 1990, for no political reason. Not like this Noel Malcolm, whose book seems good. Seems, because he did not go in Belgrade to take any Serbian sources. But he went in Zagreb and Tirana. With such a lack in his research, his book cannot be considered scientific at all. In fact, Noel Malcolm never hides that he's anti-Serb.

For the Kosovo, it was mostly Serbian during the Middle Ages. The only argument Albanians have for claiming this land is their demography. And for that, they won as colonists during Turkish rule, like Europeans won over indigenous when they came in America. Human history has always been like this, and even in the 21th century, this has been proven to be still the truth. The only difference between Albanians in Kosovo and White people in America, is that White people can't say they were in America before the Indians. But the Albanians, thanks to MOTHER AUSTRIA, have the Illyro-Dardanian theory.

The truth is that there were a people called Dardanians in Kosovo a VERY long time ago. After the Romans came, these people were latinized, and there main town, Naissus, gave the Emperor Constantine. After the fall of the Roman Empire, Slavic began to invade the land, and settled in Dardania. This was during the 5th and 6th century. And it was not the Serbs, it was some Slavic people of various tribes. After that, Kosovo fall in Bulgarian rule, Byzantine rule, and finally, during the 12th century, it became Serbian. Serbs did not settle in Kosovo, or very little. They mostly serbicized the already Slavic and Vlach population. And for two centuries, Kosovo was Serb. However, there were Albanians in this territory during this period, as Milan Suflaj, a great Croatian historian and pro-Albanians but objective, demonstrated. There were far less numerous than Serbs, but they lived in Kosovo at that time. In fact, during the Great Migration of Serb people from Kosovo, there were also Albanians in the exodus, from the Kelmendi, Kastrati, Gruda, Hoti and Shkreli tribes. With approximately 60 000 Serbs fleeing with thousands of Albanians. This is truth, attested by some Krajisnici bearing Albanians names, or by Gjon Buzuku, an Albanian from Croatia, descendant of the Albanians who fled the Turks with Serbs.

So, were do come from the Albanians living in Kosovo today? They are mostly from Malisia tribe, Berisha tribe, and other northern Albanian tribes. They converted to Islam and came to Kosovo after 1690. This is even proven by Ottoman archives. There were also a lot of Serbs albanized, this is proven by such names like Obradoviqi or Stojkoviqi.

And for Serbian Myths. This is a pure American theory. In fact it's a completely crazy argument, typically (I'm sorry for most people here) Anglo-Saxon. Because the soul of every people or nation on Earth is built upon myths: Johannes of Arc or the French Revolution for the French people; Tsar Lazar, Stefan Dushan and the Kosovo Battle for Serbs; Skenderbeg, Illyrians, Ali Pasha Tepelenes for Albanians; Thanksgiving, Abraham Lincoln, George Washington for the Americans; etc. All this are real persons or events which become mystified. The funny fact is that I didn't speak of any Serbian myth here, and that Shqype is always speaking of valorous Skenderbeg, which is a pure myth.

Oh, and for Kaplan Resuli, I know he's not entirely true. But he is one of the main individual who launch the demystification of Albanian history.

player1 fanatic

Mar 01, 2006, 12:02 PM

hmm...
Interesting discussions started to get here.

What does anybody say to make new thread in off-topic forum and continue there?

deo

Mar 01, 2006, 12:31 PM

hmm...
Interesting discussions started to get here.

What does anybody say to make new thread in off-topic forum and continue there?

It would be better to open one in the History forum because it is more history orientated than politicaly.

Its interesting to see what Ferital tells, there are many arguments i do not belive and that i can prove that are worong but id rather continue it in a new thread :).

player1 fanatic

Mar 01, 2006, 12:48 PM

Well some of the things said in this thread are contested between many serious historians, so that leaves a lots of room for discussion.

Shqype

Mar 01, 2006, 12:55 PM

Like I've said before, I'm not interested in continuing such a discussion because I've done it many times on internet forums and it doesn't lead anywhere. You clearly have a bias and use largely biased sources, ie Russians and Bulgarians, Slavic brothers of the Serbs.

You can discuss and argue and argue and yell, but it won't have any impact on Kosova gaining its independence, or on the fact that the remaining ancient Illyrians that weren't assimilated by the Slavs came to be known as Albanians. In the end, whatever makes you happy is what you will believe.

kolchevik

Mar 03, 2006, 08:42 AM

first i would just like to say hi and that this is a really great site. in just 10min i found new maps and civs i really enjoy playing (europe maps and civs like the turks)

and though i know, that it is already way off-topic and even the mods posted it, see it positive: this way you got a new member:goodjob: (100% free of ANY nationalism or prejudices and even a pacifist ;) )

i was looking for some balkan nations right now to play a little history and the civ serbs is somehow funny. in some point of history the citie's list whis CivArmys.1994 was certainly true and because it's HIS OWN MOD, i don't see why some people (especially some albanians - i guess they are) feel affected by that?!

my passport is austrian, my blood (which is not nationalistic meant, but just my entire familiy and i are born there) is macedonian. i lived long enough in both countries and cultures and because of old yugoslawia and my work i can say that i do know and understand a lot about the balkans and the history.

and i want to mention that what some here do (won't mention names, but the people should know it) is PROPAGANDA! you can't take just some years in history, post it and say this land "belongs" to this or this nation because it is without any context and only partly true (which means: just for that decade or century or whatever). there are many nations on the balkans which do claim territories from the others and if someone just posts information from the one side, than that is even to lying. :rolleyes:
EVERY nation had its ups and downs in history and had won and lost territories, which still doesn't make them their "own"

and to try to stay at least a little bit to the topic: yes, the cities are mixed up from other nations, even skopje, capital of macedonia, which has always been macedonian (maybe not constantly under macedonian rule but still populated with more than 85% by macedonians) is in the list.
and someone already mentioned it: please cut kosovo out of the discussion, it's just more heavy weight to carry :D

and sorry shqype, don't get it wrong but considering some points of your posts: you either did get wrong information in your youth(school, family) or you are just another victim of the big lies that every nation tells on the balkans = that everything belongs to them. (and by this i don't say you're the only victim here :lol:
this is one of the biggest problems in that region and is the REAL problem about the unstable status there (not that most stupid idea i've ever heard of drawing new lines for the countries you said...just think of how many problems will than occure, because even in a harmless thread in the internet people got offended here by the others when you talk about what belongs to whom!)

what i didn't find in here were some real conclusions, which would be more interesting. we cannot and should not change history but we could construct the future, which is way more important for all of us. though there will always be people who will not want to put up with it and will try to get more and more land for it's nation, it is never the nation to be blamed, judged or even hated!!!!

if the economy gets better, i think the eu will be a good solution for the balkans, because there you have certain rules you have to respect if you want to benefit from the union like the other. and because my idea (or at least hope) is that one day the eu will be the same as the usa today, then borders will not be as important as they are nowadys and a nation will be united again (albanians, serbs, croations, macedonians....it doesn't matter which one)

Shqype

Mar 03, 2006, 09:21 AM

and i want to mention that what some here do (won't mention names, but the people should know it) is PROPAGANDA! you can't take just some years in history, post it and say this land "belongs" to this or this nation because it is without any context and only partly true (which means: just for that decade or century or whatever). there are many nations on the balkans which do claim territories from the others and if someone just posts information from the one side, than that is even to lying.
EVERY nation had its ups and downs in history and had won and lost territories, which still doesn't make them their "own"
That is my point exactly, and that is the case with not only Kosova, but also the Albanian part of "Macedonia," (a 'country' which is really Bulgarian anyway).

even skopje, capital of macedonia, which has always been macedonian (maybe not constantly under macedonian rule but still populated with more than 85% by macedonians) is in the list.
Shkupi was a city with Illyrians and Thracians (those that were on the border with each other mixed together). The name is originally Thracian. But it was populated by Illyrians/Albanians and then later on was colonized with Slavs, and was made an important center of the Bulgarian state, which covered almost the whole Balkans. Ask a Bulgarian what a Macedonian is, and they will tell you there is no real "Macedonian" ethnicity, they are "breakaway Bulgarians" that feel close to Serbs and wanted to break away from Bulgaria.

Shkupi has maintained a significant Albanian population despite fairly successful colonization attempts. It is the birthplace of Mother Teresa, the "Mother of the World." :)

PS- "Macedonia" has a roughly 1/3 ethnic Albanian population indigenous to the land in which they live ;)

onedreamer

Mar 03, 2006, 09:26 AM

Of course I don't like the list. First of all, the list includes cities in Old Montenegro, as well as New Montenegro. Although the Serbs and Montenegrins are the closest of the southern Slavs and very much alike, they still are not the same. That is the first problem.

Obviously I'm going to complain about keeping Albanian Kosovar cities as part of a Serbian civilization, not only because they are Albanian, but because Kosova is no longer part of Serbia but under UN administration until it soon recieves its independence. Rest In Peace Ibrahim Rugova, President of Independent Kosova.

There are some other Albanian cities here that aren't even part of Serbia as well.. like Podgorica which is today in Montenegro, Shkupi (Skopje) which is today in Macedonia, and the biggest disgrace is seeing "Skadar" there as well, which is the Serbian way of saying Shkodra, the most important Illyro-Albanian city for at least 3400 years, which is even in Albania's present-day borders.

I see other falsehoods such as seeing Bosnian cities such as Sarajevo, but even Vukovar which is a Croatian city.

So yes, this city list is extremely flawed. I don't know where you've got it CivArmy, but that source is severly one-sided and unreliable!

Man... this is really funny. If I release a roman mod with Lugdunum and Lutetia as roman cities will you come to protest because those cities are not
PRESENTLY under the roman empire ? Or will you protest because I didn't list them as Lyon and Paris ? Or can you state that at no point in History was Skopje under Serbian territorial rule ?

player1 fanatic

Mar 03, 2006, 09:26 AM

Ask a Bulgarian what a Macedonian is, and they will tell you there is no real "Macedonian" ethnicity, they are "breakaway Bulgarians" that feel close to Serbs and wanted to break away from Bulgaria.

Interesting to note that stories like this can really be dangerous.
For example some Serbs could say that original Bosnians (from middle age) are just breakaway Serb tribes that later in time of Turkish rule adopted Muslim faith. And then use that to claim whole Bosnia for themself.

Things like that can really stir up nationalistic problems.

P.S.
The point is, even if some group broke from other group, it's seperate national indentity should never be contested. If some group broke from other group it's their right and their will to be called how they want to called.

kolchevik

Mar 03, 2006, 10:11 AM

interesting how you don't even think about what i wrote, but still keep on with your writing and the fanatic phrases someone has told you.
first of all, you do not have any knowledge of your countries history so please do not start dropping phrases about other's history. should your post about the macedonians be a try to insult me or at least provoce me (like you did with many others here), then i'm sorry, i already wrote that im not the kind of person like you are.
and just a compare to that: if i would have written something similar about you or albania, you would have called me a slavic moron and would cry for help...
luckily i can say that i have some albanian friends who are normal and have thrown away "this coat of nationalism" like you still wear...

and another add about bulgarians/macedonians so next time maybe you know a little more: macedonia had maybe a big history in ancient times, but after that it was weak throughout the history (with few exceptions). serbs and albanians want the country, bulgarians just the language and greeks don't accept the name. and as it is known that winners write history, it is obvious that you just believe the main-stream version. (oh, and by the way, in the first semester of political science you learn about these LIES in AUSTRIA, so don't tell me this post is patriotic! :crazyeye: )
besides, that's why i wrote that every nation expects something from another and that it is hard to define anything down there...

and if you really want to go into ancient times. skopje was one of the towns of ancient macedonia (which by the way were no greeks, but didn't really have a own culture --> therefore called barbarians by the greeks; and assimilated the greek culture ). besides the fact, that what you are talking about is so absurd. illyrians = albanians is a big lie! like all the ancient nations on the balkans, the illyrians also got mixed up. no nation has a "clean" heritage, also because the turks did their work for that with the many resetteling in some regions!

oh, and about mother teresa. her father was a turk. and she didn't became famous because she proclaimed she was albanian, macedonian, turkish or whatever.. you could take a example of her boy! :D

Shqype

Mar 03, 2006, 10:24 AM

acedonia had maybe a big history in ancient times, but after that it was weak throughout the history (with few exceptions)
ANCIENT MACEDONIANS and SLAVIC MACEDONIANS are two completely different groups of people. The ancient Macedonians are said to have had Illyrian roots, the Slavic Macedonians have Bulgarian roots. They are separate.

oh, and about mother teresa. her father was a turk. and she didn't became famous because she proclaimed she was albanian, macedonian, turkish or whatever.. you could take a example of her boy!
Her father was an Albanian Catholic that worked with other Albanians (who happened to be Muslim) for the unification and freedom of Albanians in Slav-run territories. He was poisoned, most likely by one of these enemies.

Illyrians are an ancient people which came to be known as the Albanians. The Illyrians that weren't assimilated by the Slavic tribes (Slovenes, Croats, Serbs) maintained their own identity and resisted 33 armed invasions to the present. This is nothing about "pure" blood. The southern Illyrians resisted assimilation and came to be called "Albanians" by the Greeks. Albanians have Illyrian culture, they speak the Illyrian language, they follow Illyrian customs, they live in Illyrian cities, and have lived in their land for milleniums.

Pretty much the only people unwilling to accept this fact are anti-Albanian Slavs and Greeks, because of the political implications of acknowledging that land these countries usurped actually "belongs to" the Albanians. There is a whole other element of racism that I won't get into.

Shqype

Mar 03, 2006, 11:10 AM

Interesting to note that stories like this can really be dangerous.
For example some Serbs could say that original Bosnians (from middle age) are just breakaway Serb tribes that later in time of Turkish rule adopted Muslim faith. And then use that to claim whole Bosnia for themself.

The Bosnians were at one point Illyrian but they too were assimilated by the Slavs (just like all Illyrians north of them). The Bosnians followed a form of Christianity called "Bogomil," which was persecuted not only by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, but by the Muslim Turks as well. So, in order to keep themselves from turning completely Serb, the Bosnians adopted Islam to preserve their identity.

Now, I have no "brotherhood" or any particular feelings towards the Bosnians, but I'm just telling about their "special case."

Man... this is really funny. If I release a roman mod with Lugdunum and Lutetia as roman cities will you come to protest because those cities are not
PRESENTLY under the roman empire ? Or will you protest because I didn't list them as Lyon and Paris ? Or can you state that at no point in History was Skopje under Serbian territorial rule ?
There is a misunderstanding. The Roman Empire is long and gone, but those cities were a part of the Roman Empire. It is understood that the Roman Empire was an ancient Empire that had much of Europe incorporated into it. I don't protest it.

In the Balkans things get much more tricky, because many Balkan nations at one point had a majority of the Balkans under its empire. For example, in ancient times almost the whole Balkans was the domain of the Illyrians; then Slavic tribes invaded and assimilated a majority of the Illyrian populations, giving rise to a Bulgarian empire which encompassed practically the whole Balkans, Albania included; later under Stefan Dushan the Serbs have a 9-year golden age under which their empire comprised most of the Balkans, down to Athens, Greece.

Now, Athens is not a Serbian city because it was under the Serbian empire for 9 years. Athens is a Greek city, no matter WHAT empire it is under. Does that make more sense? I use this example often, but it makes sense: Germany cannot claim France just because Germany conquered France during the World Wars. France is still French, NOT German, although it was under German domination.

kolchevik

Mar 03, 2006, 12:55 PM

sorry to have bothered you.. i learned in life that people like you who are that fanatic and believe that their nation is a nation that was ONLY suffering, will never be able to accept something else... poor you.

maybe you'll still do me a favor and stop copying texts from nationalistic sites (no matter what nation they are from!). if not for you, for people who do not come from the same region like we both and do not know that much about there. they may start to believe in your crap...

and an excuse to the others for extending the discussion. didn't meant to after i saw that there's no point any more... but afterwards everyone's smarter :mischief:

Shqype

Mar 03, 2006, 01:36 PM

sorry to have bothered you.. i learned in life that people like you who are that fanatic and believe that their nation is a nation that was ONLY suffering, will never be able to accept something else... poor you.
Not quite sure what exactly you're saying here. I'm not a fanatic in anything except Civ ;)

maybe you'll still do me a favor and stop copying texts from nationalistic sites (no matter what nation they are from!). if not for you, for people who do not come from the same region like we both and do not know that much about there. they may start to believe in your crap...
I didn't copy any text from any websites in the last few posts... I spoke from knowledge I have based on books I've read, facts I've learned, and my own experiences. There's no crap on my side: I will remind any audience listening that you claim to be a Macedonian, and as such there is a political reason for denying Albanians of their identity: removing their claim to a significant portion of the land under the state of Macedonia, which has roughly 1/3 ethnic Albanian population.

Look at the Balkan nationalities that attempt to refute and discredit the Albanians: there is often a political reason for doing so ;)

CivArmy s. 1994

Mar 04, 2006, 08:43 PM

I am impressed how rich is the history of Balcans and how many fights among all its inhabitants there is out there!!! :wow: Every thread about Balcans civis there r polemics and too many debats

Shqype

Mar 04, 2006, 09:53 PM

There's been 2 Balkan wars, and centuries of warfare.

deo

Mar 05, 2006, 02:31 AM

I am impressed how rich is the history of Balcans and how many fights among all its inhabitants there is out there!!! :wow: Every thread about Balcans civis there r polemics and too many debats

And i'll tell you that this will never end :(

player1 fanatic

Mar 05, 2006, 02:34 AM

Good living standard == less important nationalism
Bad living standard == the other nation is to blame for evrything. From history to today.

onedreamer

Mar 10, 2006, 08:09 AM

There is a misunderstanding. The Roman Empire is long and gone, but those cities were a part of the Roman Empire. It is understood that the Roman Empire was an ancient Empire that had much of Europe incorporated into it. I don't protest it.

In the Balkans things get much more tricky

The Balkans get more tricky only because you are albanian... in reality they aren't any trickier than any other place in the world... you look at the rest of the world in a too simplicistic way compared at how you look at the Balkans. Germans can't claim France ? Who said so ? There are whole regions that can belong to both cultures, for example Alsatia. Strasbourg, or Strassburg ? To me this name sounds goddamn germanic not french. The region where I live can count loads of towns toward the border with France that have french or occitan names. Toward the border with Austria there are towns and people with german/austrian names and surnames. This is what is called a cultural border... heh it seems too easy for you to draw the borders in the balkans and state firmly this is serbian, that is greek, that is albanian, and as well you do it with the rest of Europe/the World. Things are not so simple... and about city names, if I'd think like you, I should protest because in an italian mod, Turin is called with the italian name instead of its local name. But who invented this name ? Neither italians nor piedmontese... but romans, so WTF... ? Should it be called with its roman name ?
One has all the rights to create a serbian civilization and list Skopje as a serbian city and use its goddamn serbian name, in the same way Lutetia has been listed in Civ3 as a roman city... since that was neither its original name, nor was the city founded by romans. There is no difference whatsoever and no missunderstanding... there is only the inability from balkan people to see the truth with objective eyes and not with their extreme nationalistic views.
Nationalism is long gone, get over with it.... hello ? We're trying to build a united Europe here. It's the year 2006. This bull s h i t in the Balkans should stop already, it's about time.
And for Whoever's Sake, please realize that the rebellion in Kosovo was nothing more than a rebellion. Kosovo was under the state rule of Serbia & Montenegro when the pro-albanian rebel terrorists started killing serbian people. Serbia had all rights to either let Kosovo separate or send their army there and deal with these people. Of course terrorists killing serbian innocent people didn't help with the decision. People have rebelled in Italy too, in the border regions (for example in Venice) because they wanted to be independent... and they have met with the italian regular army. People have rebelled in Chechnya and they have met with the russian army. People have rebelled in Texas and they have met with the Rangers and the army. Though none declared publicly that Italy, Russia or US are led by ruthless warmongers with mind problems and ethnic exterminations manias.
The UN/NATO should have never poked their nose into such affairs, a civil war is a civil war and there is none who is right or wrong in these situations. And please don't come to tell what bad things have been done by which side... that is what is called a war. Nothing new, from thousands of years. Also just know that there wasn't a single common person in Italy that approved american bombers to take off from the italian airports to go bombing in the ex Yugoslavia, whoever were they going to bomb. But sadly Italy is part of such alliances and can't step back in these situations...
Anyways, imposed peace is not going to solve anything, and all the polemics on the forums are the proof. It didn't solve anything in the Balkans, it won't in Iraq, and the politicians know it, but the truth is that there are other interests behind, and that the US, UN, and whatnot only intervene when there are political reasons to do so, not because it is ethical.

However one would expect that people playing Civ and posting in english on a forum are intelligent enough to skip these stupid discussions and not get all set up because Skopje is listed as a serbian city with its serbian name in a mod...

damir_k87

Mar 11, 2006, 10:49 PM

crkla vam je svinja :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

dinamo_18

Mar 11, 2006, 11:11 PM

no :) this is the full list:

<City>Ras</City>
<City>Beograd</City>
<City>Niš</City>
<City>Priština</City>
<City>Kruševac</City>
<City>Kragujevac</City>
<City>Novi Sad</City>
<City>Kraljevo</City>
<City>Cacak</City>
<City>Užice</City>
<City>Obrenovac</City>
<City>Valjevo</City>
<City>Šabac</City>
<City>Loznica</City>
<City>Mladenovac</City>
<City>Kosovska Mitrovica</City>
<City>Pec</City>
<City>Arandelovac</City>
<City>Dubrovnik</City>
<City>Podgorica</City>
<City>Cetinje</City>
<City>Skadar</City>
<City>Sarajevo</City>
<City>Banja Luka</City>
<City>Mostar</City>
<City>Tuzla</City>
<City>Zenica</City>
<City>Knin</City>
<City>Vukovar</City>
<City>Skopje</City>
<City>Vršac</City>
<City>Zemun</City>
<City>Pancevo</City>
<City>Ðakovica</City>
<City>Gracanica</City>
<City>Gnjilane</City>
<City>Uroševac</City>
<City>Kacanik</City>
<City>Prizren</City>
<City>Negotin</City>
<City>Bor</City>
<City>Zajecar</City>
<City>Kladovo</City>
<City>Velika Plana</City>
<City>Požarevac</City>
<City>Smederovo</City>
<City>Stalac</City>
<City>Novi Pazar</City>
<City>Požega</City>
<City>Gornji Milanovac</City>
<City>Zvornik</City>
Why would you include cities from Croatia and Bosnia??? And the UU isnt exactly the prefered choice.

Shqype

Mar 11, 2006, 11:30 PM

Milosevic's death puts war trials in jeopardy
RICHARD GRAY

THE death of the former Yugoslav leader Slobodan Milosevic five years into his trial for genocide has thrown the prosecution of dozens of accused war criminals into doubt.

Branded the "Butcher of Belgrade" after orchestrating the worst bloodshed in Europe since the Second World War, Milosevic's sudden death in a prison cell in the Hague was described by some of his victims last night as "God's judgment".

The chief UN war crimes prosecutor, Carla Del Ponte, said she regretted the death of Milosevic and was convinced she would have secured his conviction had he lived. "I also regret it for the victims, the thousands of victims who have been waiting for justice," she said.

But the International War Crimes Tribunal was itself under fire last night as anger mounted in Serbia, and its close ally Russia, over the fact that an already sick Milosevic was allowed to die in his cell. The headlines in a Belgrade newspapers declared: "The Hague killed Milosevic."

Milosevic's death may now stiffen resolve in Serbia to obstruct the handover of the former Bosnian Serb military commander Ratko Mladic and five other fugitives to the tribunal just weeks before the deadline for their extradition. Experts also warned that Milosevic could become a martyr for Serbians, and his death may spark unrest in the region.

"It's sad that he died. Our enemies killed him. His heart could not stand it," said one old man on a Belgrade street. "They release criminals and they put Serbs on trial."

Conspiracy theories about his death - said by the UN to be from natural causes - could also quickly emerge. Milosevic's lawyer last night claimed his client had spoken of fears about being poisoned.

He also insisted that an autopsy should be carried out in Moscow rather than by the UN. The request was immediately turned down, although a Serb pathologist will attend the examination at the Hague.

Milosevic was found dead in his bed by a guard at a UN prison near the Hague at around 8am local time.

His death comes less than a week after Milan Babic, the Serb leader of a rebel republic in Croatia and a key figure in the Balkan wars, committed suicide while in prison in the Hague.

Babic, 50, who had been sentenced to 13 years in prison for crimes against humanity and who had been a pivotal witness during Milosevic's trial, was found dead in his cell last Sunday evening.

A spokesman for the UN tribunal said a Dutch coroner had launched an inquiry into Milosevic's death.

He added that Milosevic's family had been informed of his death. His wife, Mirjana Markovic, who was often accused of being the power behind the scenes during her husband's autocratic rule in the 1990s, has been in self-imposed exile in Russia since 2003.

His son, Marko, also lives in Russia, and his daughter, Marija, lives in the Serb-controlled half of Bosnia.

But for the victims who lost friends and family in the Serb assaults on towns in Bosnia and Kosovo, Milosevic's death has denied them the justice they so desperately wanted.

Kasim Cerkezi, a Kosovo Albanian, lost six members of his family in a Serb assault on the western town of Djakovica in March 1999.

He said: "His punishment could not bring back my son, but it would be a drop of satisfaction in a sea of pain."

Political leaders expressed regret that Milosevic had escaped the final justice of the tribunal. He faced charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity for his alleged central role in the wars in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo during the 1990s. He also faced genocide charges over the 1992-95 Bosnian war, in which 200,000 people died.

Yesterday former Liberal Democrat leader Lord Ashdown, who was High Representative and EU Special Representative to Bosnia and Herzegovina, warned that Milosevic's death could now spark instability in the region.

He added: "I suppose those of us who would have wished to see justice rather than death be delivered to Milosevic will regret the fact that the justice process is halted.

"There is no doubt that of the evil that stalked the Balkans for the best part of a decade one way or another, one of the primary authors was Slobodan Milosevic."

The Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, told the BBC that Milosevic's death was "obviously sad for his family".

"But I hope very much that his passing will enable the people of Serbia better to come to terms with their past, which is the only way they can properly face the future," he added.

Colonel Tim Collins, who served with UN forces in Bosnia and Kosovo, said he had seen first-hand the damage caused by Milosevic.

He said: "There will be relief that the evil leader who hijacked the entire country of Serbia and the man, no doubt responsible for many crimes, has gone. But there will be frustration because that can't be proven now."
http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=372062006

PlatinumS

Mar 12, 2006, 12:49 AM

@damir_k87: "crkla vam je svinja"
Pa valjda imate dole u paklu compijutere? :eek: ..I u smrtu zajebao nas on sve.

Anyway, congrats on the Albanian mod, Shqype, but what does your post have to do with this topic? I dont see Milosavic as the Leader. I know that you can come up with a better reply then that to onedreamer. :) Now that Milosevic is dead and Kosovo/a is about to get its independence, we can move on, right? :p

Edit: btw: Nice, avatar.

Shqype

Mar 12, 2006, 01:00 AM

No, that wasn't a reply to one_dreamer, but just something interesting that I had read and didn't know where else to post, :lol:

Although it does support my argument about "Mother Russia" coming to Serbia's aid, as they have many times in the past, and still continue to do.

About onedreamer's post, I'll tell you something; his username is "dreamer" for a reason ;)

And thanks, PlatinumS :)

Djangolinn

Mar 12, 2006, 02:51 AM

The UU shouldn't be Cetnik,because it is a very sensitive subject here in Serbia.It should be Vitez,it's Serbian for Knight.Or Partisan,it's opposite of Cetnik.Or something like that,but my final offer iz Vitez :)

ps.It isn't Karadorde,it's Karadjordje.That means Black Djordje on English :) Kara is a Ottoman word,it was adopted while the Turks ruled Serbia for 500 years!!

Tunch Khan

Mar 12, 2006, 03:40 AM

player1 fanatic

Mar 12, 2006, 04:48 AM

@ Onedreamer:
Please try not to deny or minimize the pain and sufferings of nations who have been victimized by Serbian ethnic cleansing which would have resulted in a genocide had the NATO not intervened.

Well that's the tricky question.

Most of the Albanian exodus started after the beggining of bombing campaign. Before that, it was mostly guerrilla warfare.

You could say that maybe bombing itself provoked some ethnic clensing (not genocide, those two things gets mixed too often).

Anyway, the point is that in 1998 (when Albainian revolt started with UCK) and early 1999 the trend was to minimize escalations so that foreigh intervention does not get forced upon Serbia. There were even foreign observers in early 1999.

But after bombing started, you can say that spirit of (ultra)nationalism was increased.

So if there was ethnic cleansing, it would happen in that period not before intervention.

P.S.
Why is this thread get bumped so often, and usually with off-topic bimbing.

(damir_k87 bumping translation: Your pig has died, hahaha...)

I don't want to discuss nationalism. Nor to be associated with Milosevic or ultranationalists.

It's the secon time that thread gets bumped with off-topic insults, disguised in Serbian (ok, Boshniak language, same whatever...).

Let this thread die, and make Velja Serbian mod thread live.

Shqype

Mar 12, 2006, 11:23 AM

Anyway, the point is that in 1998 (when Albainian revolt started with UCK) and early 1999 the trend was to minimize escalations so that foreigh intervention does not get forced upon Serbia. There were even foreign observers in early 1999.
Do you know how the war started?

Have you ever heard of Adem Jashari? He is probably Kosova's biggest martyr. Serbian paramilitary entered his region in an attempt to "ethnically cleanse" him and his family (isn't 'ethnic cleansing' a form of genocide, just a nicer way of putting it?). He didn't take it, however, and he put up a resistance.

Adem and Hamez Jashari, with their family, fought the Serbian paramilitary until they were finally killed on the 3rd day of their struggle. He asked his children to leave, but they refused, saying that Kosova was their land and they would die defending it. So they took up arms as well, and eventually were killed from this battle.

However, one of the children escaped, and lived to tell the story of his family's heroic last stand. It was this event that sparked support for the UCK and what caused many to join it. That's when the guerilla warfare became a serious issue for the Serbian paramilitary forces.

Adem Jashari's house, where his family fought the Serbs for 3 days, is 'on display' in Kosova and functions as a memorial. I even have pictures of the massacred family in question, as well as a Serbian report on the event. Very interesting material.

Anyway, atrocities were committed by both sides, my goal in the above was not to bring up old skeletons about genocide, but to explain about the formation and public support of the UCK, which defended the Albanians and fought for a free Kosova.

I don't want to discuss nationalism. Nor to be associated with Milosevic or ultranationalists.
You're smart in doing so.

player1 fanatic

Mar 12, 2006, 12:41 PM

Have you ever heard of Adem Jashari? He is probably Kosova's biggest martyr. Serbian paramilitary entered his region in an attempt to "ethnically cleanse" him and his family (isn't 'ethnic cleansing' a form of genocide, just a nicer way of putting it?). He didn't take it, however, and he put up a resistance.

I'm a bit familiar with that case. Jashari was also a member of UCK, in those days by Serbs refered as terrorist organization. He had garrisoned in his hour and resisted arrest. Serbs forcully entered and killed him and most of his familty.

Would he've died if he hadn't resisted? Was original plan his assasination?
I don't know, nor pretend to know, I can only guess motives of Serbian forces, or of Jashari himself.

This pretty much seems similar as things that happen in Irak, Chechenia, Palestine and several other regions where guerrilla warfare is existant.

Not only that but it is similar to that Texas independence issue that happend in USA few years ago.

.

Anyway, you can't cleanse or genocide one person, and it's true whole affar made him maryr in Albanian eyes (dying for the couse).

The difference between genocide and enthic cleansing by the way, is that clensing as goal has to drive off some population from their land (I'm not talking about means, just goal).

For example that's what happen with Jews in medieval Spain during Inquisition.

The genocide as goal on the other hand has to kill off specific population, not just drive them off from their land. That's what happends to Jews duting WWII.

Geno-cide = gene killing
ethnic cleansing = cleansing the area from one ethnic group

Enough from me...

Sideral

Mar 16, 2006, 02:58 AM

@ Onedreamer:

Please try not to deny or minimize the pain and sufferings of nations who have been victimized by Serbian ethnic cleansing which would have resulted in a genocide had the NATO not intervened. What has been committed by Serbian paramilitary and regular forces in Bosnia and Kosova has been recorded in history at the international tribunals in Den Haag, Holland.

What Serbs did to non-Serbs within the ex-Yugoslavian borders was wrong, but I think that Onedreamer tries to be reconciliating and bypass ultra nationalistic issues.

For the last weeks I have been reading Balkan related topics in this forum and some posts are purely blind and fascistic.

Every country has made terrible mistakes in the Balkans. But in a mysterious way, no Turk admits genocide of Armenians, no Albanian admits killing Serbs, no FYRoMacedonian admits not being the grand-grand-grand son of Alexander and no Greek admits of mistreating the Albanians that used to live in their country.

Most of all, I remark that immigrants from the Balkans who live in the USA or elsewhere are more fanatic and nationalist than people who actually live in the Balkans and who desire peace and progress.

Have a nice day and try to think in a constructive way. Give a thought to other people's beliefs before denying them. I wish that the new history books will be more objective and learn to the younger people that every country has done its rights and wrongs.

Take care and live for the future, not for the past! And be polite to each other people! Imagine the opinion of non-Balkan guests reading all these threads! The Balkans are the cultural niche of Europe, try to remember this...

Sideral

Mar 16, 2006, 03:02 AM

P.S. My last post is not aiming against Tunch whom I respect and find well-mannered and well-read, but the whole spirit of posts in the Serb, Albanian and Bulgarian mods threads.

Have a nice day!

Shqype

Mar 16, 2006, 07:21 PM

Every country has made terrible mistakes in the Balkans. But in a mysterious way, no Turk admits genocide of Armenians, no Albanian admits killing Serbs, no FYRoMacedonian admits not being the grand-grand-grand son of Alexander and no Greek admits of mistreating the Albanians that used to live in their country.
As far as I know, the Turkish government has not officially issued some sort of statement of apology or admitting of the 'genocide' commited against the Armenians. (Forgive my ignorance if I'm wrong, but to my understanding this was a forced march through a desert without food).

Similarly, the Greek government has not even acknowledged the 'ethnic cleansing' and genocide of the Cameria-Albanians that it has committed. But, I have come across Greeks that are very proud of their country's assimilating power and are happy that such Albanians were forced to take Greek names, etc.

It is silly for a Slavic 'Macedonian' to claim any descent from Alexander the Great since Alexander the Great was not Slavic Macedonian, and lived in a time before the Slavic tribes even settled in what is now called "Macedonia."

Regarding Albanians, of course there are some that admit to killing Serbs. It is an undeniable fact. Regarding the recent war in Kosova, many of the killings of Serbs by Albanians were revenge killings. Some were just lashing out at innocent people for things their guilty countrymen did. Whatever the reason, it did happen.

Now, to conclude this post, I will say that there are good and bad people of all ethnicities. There is no group that is 100% good or bad. I feel this is human nature, and is true everywhere in the world, not just the Balkans.

Tunch Khan

Mar 16, 2006, 07:32 PM

...Every country has made terrible mistakes in the Balkans. But in a mysterious way, no Turk admits genocide of Armenians...
Various Turkish governments have acknowledged the deportation of Armenians from Eastern Anatolia in 1915 and Turks have no problem with history. We have well based reasons and justifications for those actions that took place during the greatest war the world had ever seen to that day. It was supposed to be a temporary measure until the end of the war and Armenians were deported an masse (under very bad circumstances due to the ongoing war conditions; winter; tyhphoid and other pandemics; acts committed by Armenian paramilitary forces themselves; highway banditry on the way committed by Kurdish tribesmen) to southern provinces of the Ottoman Empire. Unfortunately for the Armenians; after the war was over, there was no Ottoman Empire left and they found themselves in French occupied Syria and Lebanon with the borders of the new Turkish Republic shut close. Those who had the most money travelled to the United States of America or Argentina, others moved to France. The rest had no other option but to settle down in Syria and Lebanon.

Today the Armenian claims of a "Genocide" is based on the fact that there are no Armenians left in Turkey (therefore they must have all been killed). The mysterious increase (in millions) of Armenian population in the latter countries is never mentioned. There has to be one mythic "Armenian Adam and Eve" who miraculously escaped the "Genocide" and repopulated the world with hundreds of thousdands of Armenians in a few years. They also don't mention the fact that how the Armenians of the West especially those Armenians in the capital city of the "Genocide Planning" Ottoman government; Istanbul were left untouched.

Even to this day there is a significant (45,000) Armenian minority in Istanbul. The Armenian population only in California according to the U.S. Census Bureau (1990) was 120,000, but many Armenian sources show that the estimated number of Armenian population is about 250,000-350,000 people. The estimated number of Armenians in the USA is nearing one million. There are more than 250,000 Armenians living in France today, most of them in Paris and Marseilles. There are also 100,000 Armenians who live in Syria; between 150,000-200,000 that live in Lebanon; 200,000 in Argentina and more scattered in other counties. All together there are about 8 million Armenians worldwide with only 3 million of them living in Armenia. So we are talking about roughly 5 million descendants of "Genocide survivors".

Wow, that strikes me as a very bold survival rate which may be explained only in two ways: Ottoman Turks planned and attemted to execute a very sinister plan to kill all Armenians but they weren't technologically advanced to gas them so the Armenians pretended to die but then walked away to Paris or Los Angeles; or the Ottoman Turks basicly deported the Armenian population that was collaborating with the invading Russian Army by attemting to ethnicly cleanse the Turks, providing scouts, volunteers, maps, food, shelter and other critical information in the front zones (Eastern Anatolia) to a safer territory where they would not be regarded as a national security threat.

Had the Ottoman Empire survived the war as a victor, these Armenians would have surely been given the option to relocate once more to their homelands, (compare to the concentration camps for the Japanese-Americans during WWII) but the history is not written by the loosers and Armenians have very successfully exploited the tragedy for their financial interests by milking the western attention and billions gathered by charities; insurance companies; and various governments.

Sideral

Mar 17, 2006, 02:15 AM

Similarly, the Greek government has not even acknowledged the 'ethnic cleansing' and genocide of the Cameria-Albanians that it has committed. But, I have come across Greeks that are very proud of their country's assimilating power and are happy that such Albanians were forced to take Greek names, etc.

Various Turkish governments have acknowledged the deportation of Armenians from Eastern Anatolia in 1915 and Turks have no problem with history... // ...Had the Ottoman Empire survived the war as a victor, these Armenians would have surely been given the option to relocate once more to their homelands, (compare to the concentration camps for the Japanese-Americans during WWII) but the history is not written by the losers and Armenians have very successfully exploited the tragedy for their financial interests by milking the western attention and billions gathered by charities; insurance companies; and various governments.

Dear friends, thank you for giving me some history facts, I am no expert in the Armenian history. I think though, that you are intelligent enough to understand that I was only trying to give some examples. I you want me to state better established atrocities from every country, I am sure that I can search and find some. I only wanted to say that all of us have made some harm and that we should be bold enough to admit it. History books are always one-sided. So please, when someone tells you that MAYBE you have done this or that, just TAKE A MINUTE to consider that this could have happened. For example, I have never heard of an Albanian "genocide" here in Greece and deportation is NOT a "genocide" as Tunch claims. But I did some research and found out why Albanians feel that way. The Muslim Albanians were assimilated and/or deported by Greeks during the Greek-Turkish population exchange, often against their will. See? I am ready to look into the other side of facts. So when someone says that maybe you are not Illyrian for example, do not get upset. It's a possibility. When someone says to a Serb that their leaders and army have committed atrocities, they must calm down and see that this has happened. The same with Turks, Bulgarians etc.
One last thing: I find it silly to get upset because one city is in the Albanian, Serb or Bulgarian mod; not only this is a game but remember in CIV3 when Constantinople was Byzantine and Istanbul Ottoman! The same applies with Occhrid, Skopje, etc.
WE ARE NOT governors! Even if we put a city in a mod, reality will not change!

Finally, I agree with the following quote and I wish us all to have the possibility to travel in each other's country to see how amazing we all are!

Now, to conclude this post, I will say that there are good and bad people of all ethnicities. There is no group that is 100% good or bad. I feel this is human nature, and is true everywhere in the world, not just the Balkans.

Have a nice day!!! :king:

Tunch Khan

Mar 17, 2006, 05:25 AM

@ Sideral:

No worries... the reason I quoted from you is because I wanted to clarify some things regarding "genocide" (because average European/American person has a tendency to take it as granted) and that was it. Aside from that, I agree with your ideas. There can be many cities that can appear on different civ city lists. This is just a game and modders all have different ideas when creating their own mods. I believe we should respect that and leave it as is. If someone likes any of these mods, they will download and play; otherwise they should just ignore it.

Alen05

Apr 28, 2006, 01:15 PM

You guys really aren't normal. *****ez the war is over so shut the **** up about it.**** milosevic, karadzic, mladic, izetbegovic, tudman all of them those gays are responsable for so many deaths and dumb people like tohso who posted some here about are the worst mother****ers of all of us.You **** up our nations prides.Because people like you i miss my mom every day so just shut the **** about it which city belongs to who. And just pray that we don't have to fight about them again in 20 years or whenever.Just live in peace you *******s. Respect for those who respect the others.

deo

Apr 28, 2006, 02:45 PM

General_Putnik

May 01, 2006, 08:43 PM

i think the Serbs should have some other special units, their artilery was extremly profficient during the WWI

[CRO]Nemesis

May 02, 2006, 08:13 AM

The trouth about Cetniks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetnik
I think that this Civ should not be called Serbia and Montenegro becouse Montenegro is going to declare their independence in next few monts. I think this civ should be called "kingdom of Serbia, Vojvodina, Kosovo and Sandzak"

General_Putnik

May 02, 2006, 11:05 AM

Nemesis']The trouth about Cetniks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetnik
I think that this Civ should not be called Serbia and Montenegro becouse Montenegro is going to declare their independence in next few monts. I think this civ should be called "kingdom of Serbia, Vojvodina, Kosovo and Sandzak"

anything but to see the serbs eh?

man you are totally transparent.

You dont call a civ based on the country that they are in currently but the ethnicity.

TheJopa

May 02, 2006, 02:45 PM

General_Putnik

May 02, 2006, 03:03 PM

Knin is definitely Croatian city and Srpska Krajina was just non-legitimate state proclaimed by terrorists. Who were at the same time making attrocities in both Knin and Vukovar. Which are now both proud Croatian cities. So I'm politely asking you to remove all Croatian cities from list (Dubrovnik, Požega...). I have nothing at all against Serbian civ mod or against Serbia, really, but this is clearly a provocation.

right...croatian city...why dont you pull out the 1990 census or for that matter look who's been living there for the past 400 years and defending the dual monarchy fromm the ottoman aggression

[CRO]Nemesis

May 03, 2006, 08:09 AM

If u look it that way, Belgrade is Hungarian City then (only picture where Dubrovnik is part of Serbia, you should look Hungaria on north http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cb/Nemanja_StefanP_Sebia200.jpg ) , becouse Croatian and Hungarian generals were defending it long time ago.

This is just like calling New York or Washington a part of England becouse England had built those citys, or better, calling whole Poland a part of Germany becouse it was a part of 3rd Reich.

Other intresting links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Croatia

General_Putnik

May 03, 2006, 01:57 PM

depending on what time period you are looking @ that is true

Belgrade was a Roman city called Singidunum as were London and Paris.

And Knin was Serbian, after that little ethnic cleansing opereration it certainly isnt.

[CRO]Nemesis

May 05, 2006, 07:47 AM

I'll belive when you prove it, there are tapes from Srebrenica i Vukovar, where are those from Knin???

General_Putnik

May 05, 2006, 08:57 AM

Nemesis']I'll belive when you prove it, there are tapes from Srebrenica i Vukovar, where are those from Knin???

I don’t need a tape to prove it. Look @ the 1990 census figures, look at current census figures for Knin.

onedreamer

May 05, 2006, 09:28 AM

onedreamer

May 05, 2006, 09:38 AM

Do you know how the war started?

Have you ever heard of Adem Jashari? He is probably Kosova's biggest martyr.

:eek:
ROFLMAO, he was a terrorist.
Player1 fanatic is the only person from balkans here who can look at facts with objective eyes. Shqype, you calling me dreamer is simply laughable.

Shqype

May 05, 2006, 09:55 AM

Terrorist is a word easily flung at anyone that fights for something, it is part of scaremongering tactics, using the public's affiliation with the word to bring a negative image on a person or group.

Adem Jashari and his family didn't kill civilians, they defended their house against Serbian paramilitary for a few days until they were all finally massacred.

General_Putnik

May 05, 2006, 12:11 PM

he said she said...right ...and Ceku and Tachi are saints

Shqype

May 05, 2006, 12:45 PM

Ceku was an UCK general, Thaci an alleged drug dealer. Neither are saints.

Anything useful to say (and not sarcastic)?

ryo-n-gats

May 06, 2006, 05:46 AM

Anything useful to say (and not sarcastic)?

Yes. Why do they, then ,represent legitimate government on Kosovo and Metohija, and are not locked up in Haag?

I do not know country that has criminals as representative politicians. I think that it just shows what country they want to create. Paradise for drug dealers, sex traficking mafia, and rest.

If you have a criminals as a leading politicians, what can you expect from country they want to create?

deo

May 06, 2006, 06:25 AM

Yes. Why do they, then ,represent legitimate government on Kosovo and Metohija, and are not locked up in Haag?

I do not know country that has criminals as representative politicians. I think that it just shows what country they want to create. Paradise for drug dealers, sex traficking mafia, and rest.

If you have a criminals as a leading politicians, what can you expect from country they want to create?

What, In Your Oppinion, did they do to be called criminals?

Shqype

May 06, 2006, 02:13 PM

General_Putnik

May 06, 2006, 06:30 PM

If perhaps you could explain, ryo-n-gats, instead of just making claims and accusations, it would be better.

But, in any case, one can say that politicians are corrupt no matter where you go. You think Serbia has had better ones? :lol:

But, Kosova did have Rugova, and he was gold. "The Gandhi of the Balkans." Find me a leader of the Balkans that can compare with him. Even if you did find one, one thing's for sure: that leader wasn't Serbian!

Actually I can - Dobrica Cosic

I chose him over people like Pasic because they were in the same era as Mr. Ghandi of the balcans.

The one thing about Rugova is that he built a legacy that is 100 times larger then what he actually accomplished in Kosovo. And let me elaborate on this.

Rugova did not want to find a solution with Serbia, there was no compromise and no dialog. This is not something that Ghandi represented but lets leave gandi out of the balcans.

Rugova allowed the status Quo and that on his end is a terrible moral sin. For one because of that Milosevic was able to exploit the kosovo issue in the way that he did. I can not tell you how many ellections the democratic and even radical forces in Serbia lost because of Kosovo.

Kosovo serbs fearing for their life would vote for Milosevic who then decided not to help them. Had the albanians participated in Serbian political life their votes and views could not have been ignored.

If there truly were 2 million Kosovo albanians before the 99 intervention then they would have a sizable reprentation in a country that officially had 10 million people.

So add 2 million (since Albanians werent counted in census info due to their own wishes) to the 10 million citizens and we get a situation where Kosovo would not have been the place of misery that it is today.

Would this process have taken place longer - perhaps but given the circumstances that we are in today then I belive that today there would be a Yugoslavia, a healthy multi democratic, ethnicly diverse and most importantly prosperous country.

For one - We see that Albania and Kosovo will not be in the EU for another 50 years . Serbia has at least tanoter 20 to 30 before this occurs. and that is sad.

At the end of the Cold War we were ahead of Poland and Check republic, ahead all of Eastern Europe and even Russia, today...

At this point one can regocnize that Yugoslavs (all the ethnicities) dreams were shattered in a wain action off opportunist like Slobodan, Franjo and Alija, Ibrahim and others.

Why am I saying this, because the bright goal of EU will bring what we already had, namely Yugo except for the fact that we have lost 50 years in the process.

Sure Democratic reforms were needed - but ultimatly it was a bad and wrong direction - we did not need national states - we did not need Croatia and Slovenia and Bosnia independent because now they are joining another Federation - namely the EUROPEAN one!

Yugoslavia - pre war would have been part of EU by 1995 if not 98. And today we all would be a lot happier living our lives in a prosperous Sarajevo, Belgrade, Zagreb and Pristina.

Heck a Kosovo in EU might have helped Albania overcome the issues it faces today.

Shqype

May 07, 2006, 12:50 AM

Interesting about Dobrica Cosic, and although I don't know where you're getting your numbers about Kosova (2 million and 10 million), here's an interesting quote that can sum up Serbian ultranationalism (like that of Milosevic's):
“Lažemo da bi smo obmanuli sebe, da utešimo drugog; lažemo iz samilosti, da nas nije strah, da ohrabrimo, da sakrijemo svoju i tudju bedu, lažemo zbog poštenja. Lažemo zbog slobode. Laž je vid našeg patriotizma i potvrda naše urodjene inteligencije. Lažemo stvaralacki, maštovito, inventivno.”

“We lie to deceive ourselves, to console others; we lie for mercy, we lie to fight fear, to encourage ourselves, to hide our and somebody else’s misery. We lie for love and honesty. We lie because freedom. The lie is the trait of our patriotism and the proof of our innate smartness. We lie creatively, imaginatively, inventively.”

ryo-n-gats

May 07, 2006, 04:33 AM

My reply was to this message

Ceku was an UCK general, Thaci an alleged drug dealer. Neither are saints.

So Shqype I do not see why did you get so upset, about that?

@dinamo more then 1000 pages report about their criminal act, fact that interpol chase them [now temporarly stopped because of political intervention, which is SCANDAL], I think that it is enough.

Find me a leader of the Balkans that can compare with him.

Are you kidding with us, or what? [And by this i do not have intention to insult you]. Historicly speaking Balkans gave significant number of leaders who pawnz Rugova.

EDIT:

Can you give me link, with that speech you quoted, please.

General_Putnik

May 07, 2006, 02:50 PM

Interesting about Dobrica Cosic, and although I don't know where you're getting your numbers about Kosova (2 million and 10 million), here's an interesting quote that can sum up Serbian ultranationalism (like that of Milosevic's):

the 10 million is official Serbia and Montenegro census figure. the 2 million is the claimed number of kosovo albanians ...claimed because they were never counted.

Shqype

May 07, 2006, 07:40 PM

Official census figure from when? And, in this case, what does a census show?

ja_sam_kordic

May 08, 2006, 12:08 AM

Fellow Christian Croatian and Serbian brothers. Lets not fight. Im sure there are enough Turks in this world that we can build a good relationship on ;).

General_Putnik

May 08, 2006, 01:47 PM

Official census figure from when? And, in this case, what does a census show?

a census would show numbers in termsm enthinicity, age, industrial and other information, i.e employment etc.

Shqype

May 08, 2006, 05:54 PM

How is a census conducted? How is the information gathered?

General_Putnik

May 09, 2006, 11:47 AM

The Associated Press, May 17, 2002
Results of Serbia's census show population drop

BELGRADE, Yugoslavia - Serbia´s population dropped only slightly during the past decade, despite the upheaval of a series of wars that shattered Yugoslavia, census officials said Thursday.

Although the drop was not significant, it was the first ever recorded in the larger republic of Yugoslavia´s two remaining republics, said Vladimir Stankovic, an expert on demographic studies.

Serbia´s population is now about 7.5 million, down just under 1 percent from the last census in 1991.

"After all the events of the past years, it was only to be expected," Stankovic said.

The census, carried out in April, did not include Kosovo, a Yugoslav province now being run by NATO and the United Nations. The two organizations have been in charge of the province since the alliance launched a 78-day air war in 1999 to stop the crackdown on ethnic Albanians by then-Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic.

The population in the capital, Belgrade, grew to a record 1.5 million, or 26,000 more than in 1991.

The census was the first undertaken since the six-republic federation of Yugoslavia began to break up a decade ago in a series of wars that brought major demographic moves.

Yugoslavia´s smaller republic, Montenegro, has said it would carry out a separate census later.

The census also investigated refugee numbers, but those results were not complete Thursday.

The census was supposed to be carried out in 2001, but Serbia´s new leadership postponed it, seeking first to stabilize the country after Milosevic´s ouster in a popular revolt that year. Final census data is due by year´s end.

-----------------------------------

how is a census conducted?

Generally a census is conducted voluntarily, surveys are done and people go from house to house and inquire bout this.

A certain sample of the general inquiry then gets a more specific one with more questions to answer.

census.gov has details on theh american way of census collection.