AWP Persian Oppressors take GOS on the road.

op•press
1. To keep down by severe and unjust use of force or authority:
2. To weigh heavily on:
3. To overwhelm or crush.

http://static.flickr.com/41/77589933_7d89277e4f_o.jpg

Roster
1. Handy -
2. Greebley -
3. ThERat -
4. Sir Bugsy -
5. LKendter -

GOS
In C3 AW games Greebley introduced me to a tactic of placing a cheap Sumerian spear next to an AI city. The spear could pillage a little, and if fortified on a nearby hill would cause the AI to whip their cities and hide their workers. I began to think of this as the Greebley Oppression Strategy ("GOS"). The application of the GOS in C4 with Persian immortals has worked extremely well playing epic speed. The immortals pillage, and then sentry on a hill or in forest near an AI city. Each turn the immortals ensure no AI improvements have been made. The AI workers are afraid to venture out while the AI archers cower behind their walls in non productive cities. As the game moves along the AI stagnates. Meanwhile the Persians are busy chopping barracks, settlers and immortals and rolling the nearby neighbors. Cash is not a big problem since the immortals can raze cities for the Persian treasury. Keep a city if it offers a new lux or resource, otherwise raze it. This is a bit of a gambit since you need nearby horses for this to work, but this has yet to be an issue on C4 resource rich maps. This is a bit of a practice run on the way to AWE.

Game Settings – “Always War” Button selected.

http://static.flickr.com/40/77589936_5863dbc442_o.jpg

SG Stuff

Be nice. You have 24 hours for an "I got it" and 72 to play. If you need a one day extension, then mention this before the 72 hours are up. Players can work out skips between themselves, just post a message to the thread. If you can't play within 72 total, switch places or ask for a skip. You gan go over 10 turns if in the middle of a pitched battle you do not feel can be easily handed off.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/HNDY02_luckycandle.gif

Turn 1 4000
I want 2 shields in the city for faster warrior builds so I will move to the hill. We will have to wait for expansion to get the cows.
Pop hut for 91 gold and spot ivory nearby. The early luxuries of silver, gold and ivory are especially powerful at epic speed since this game will be over before we get to calendar (plantation) and probably before monarchy (wines). If you like the ancient age units, epic AW is the game for you!
The computer is not pleased with my city selection.

http://static.flickr.com/6/77589939_264e023302_o.jpg

Turn 2 3960
PC begs me to return to the original site for the capital but I decline.
The only game I’ve lost playing Persia was because I did not build a warrior ASAP to protect the capital. An AI warrior strolled in for game over. We will go max shields for a quick warrior.

The scout will explore as much as possible. There is no downside to meeting all the civs. Unlike C3 where the AI would stream a bunch of units at you there is no apparent C4 downside (at least @ Prince) to meeting everyone. The AI seems to just sit in their cities instead of attacking while you are weak.
Accidentally click the “X” to close the game. Ugh. Reload.

Turn 3 3920
We will research the wheel and then AH so we can find the horses. Exploration will be counterclockwise around the fog. When the wheel is finished we will want to see the horses. If we are luck they will be in the capital borders.

Turn 4 3880
Explore.

Turn 5 3840
I try to end each turn in a forest or on a hill for safety. I don’t want to waste shields on another scout. I broke the rule this turn to pop a hut for 34 gold.

Turn 6 3800
Borders expand so we begin to work the cows to grow a little faster. This means the warrior takes 1 more turn, but with no AI in sight it should be safe.
More cows in the south. Missed it earlier but there is stone in the far NE. Still I think shields are better spent on immortals than Pyramids on a small map. Not sure if it’s worth it on AWP standard either. AWM standard maybe for the civic of representation. Ironically 5 City Conquest (Pyramids = representation) may be easier than domination in C4.

Turn 7 3760
Lots of water on this map. I wonder if we are on the far eastern edge of the Pangaea. I was hoping to be in the middle so the Immortals had less distance to travel. AW in the middle of a Pangaea a positive? Yup C4 is different alright.


Turn 8 3720
-

Turn 9 3680
-

Turn 10 3640
-

Turn 11 3600
Warrior – Warrior.
I suspect we are in the far east of the Pangaea. I think I’ll send the warrior to poke around in the east a little to find out. I won’t send him too far though. :hmm: This looks more like Inland Sea than Pangaea. We must have drawn a high sea. Nope I checked and it’s medium sea.

Turn 12 3560
No game has ever gone this long without at least one declaration. The AI muth be tightly bunched far to the west.

Turn 13 3520
Somebody founds Buddhism.
Warrior clears a little more fog in the east and it looks even more like we are on the
eastern coast of the land mass. Based on this intelligence the scout will head to the west.

Turn 14 3480
Unlike any solo game I’ve played yet. No contact.

Turn 15 3440
Action
We get the wheel and select Animal Husbandry and light a prayer candle that we will see horses near us.
We meet the Aztecs and war is automatically declared.
I guess wrong and send the scout to another dead end peninsula.
We are actually ahead of Monty in score. :lol:

Turn 16 3400
-

Turn 17 3360
-

Turn 18 3320
Spot red borders.

Turn 19 3280
It’s Tokugawa and the PC declares war even though we have yet to see a unit. He has a better score and appears to have better land than we do.

Turn 20 3240
Japanese warrior approached our city. No sweat, the second warrior is due in 2 turns and Animal Husbandry in 11 (which will drop in 1 turn when we grow). I MM and set the citizen to the wines and AH is due in 9. Not sure if long term this actually good since with food overflow. :confused: Next palyer can move him back to cows before you hit enter if this is better.


Notes:
1. The citizen is working the wines for this turn only to get extra commerce (research) since we grow on the IBT. I guess this is not necessary since the food overflows – right? Anyway, move him back to the cows after the IBT and work a 2 food tile with the new citizen.
2. I would build a worker next in the hope that we can road & pasture the horses we really really hope we have closeby.
3. Move the scout slowly so he ends in forest or on a hill out of archer range (not next to a city).
4. Research. We need Mining (production) and then masonry and Bronze working for wood choppers. In past games I researched archery but never actually built an archer since Immortals are better and cost the same. I doubt we need archery if are close to horses. If horses are far away that changes things.

EAST
http://static.flickr.com/6/77589937_58413afedc_o.jpg

WEST
http://static.flickr.com/38/77589938_0f2d9fe69e_o.jpg

You can officialy put me as yes.

You can officialy put me as yes.

Okay. :goodjob:

I just realized that I began the game before I patched. I don't think this will be a problem once we all patch up. Games can go up in patch but not backwards. Correct?

Roster
1. Handy -
2. Greebley - up
3. ThERat -
4. Sir Bugsy -
5. LKendter -

Good luck guys. It will be an interesting game I think. Hope you find some horses. :) I still laugh when the computer says, "You have found a source of Horse". :P

Grassland hills don't give +1 hammer for settling on them (as seen in the city screenshot), only Plains hills, so I think your capital move was unnecessary.

Poor Lee has to follow me. Not that you have ever hesistated before, but let me have it when I screw things up.

Commander Bugs reporting for duty. :salute:

Grassland hills don't give +1 hammer for settling on them (as seen in the city screenshot), only Plains hills, so I think your capital move was unnecessary.

:blush: Thanks. :wallbash:

Ok, I got it.

Ok, I got it.

Okay :goodjob:

I hope you all enjoy this tactic. I was getting bored with C4 AW until I tried this. It brought some action and tactics back to the game and made C4 a little more action packed and fun.

Did you find any horses? where is the rest of the guide...?

Did you find any horses? where is the rest of the guide...?

Hi. Welcome to the succession game "SG" forum. :)

We won't know about horses until we research Animal Husbandry. This is a new succession game that has just started. Each player plays 10 turns and passes the game along. We have just begun this particular game so you can check back every couple of days for updates.

Lurker checking in. Looks like this'll be an interesting game to watch (personally, I'm especially interested in how Civ4 Immortals compare with their uber-Civ3 counterparts). Good luck!

Report:

I went for Archery after Animal Husbandry, and then Pottery.

We have Horses nice and safe from enemy attack We wil have no problems keeping them. They are are also within the capitol radius.

We met Asoka (Indian), Huayna (Incan), Montezuma (Aztec) as well as the already met Japanese.

We killed a few wild animals. We have a scout that is scouting and a warrior that is harassing the AI.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/Handy25_BC2200.jpg

Well a big decision is do we want the Pyramdis. From everything I have been reading on AW and WW you need all the help you can to limit WW.

if AW is checked, there is a WW modifier that gives active WW much later. I don't think we need th pyramids in this game if we are fast to take out the AI. That said, if we are able to found more cities, then maybe one of them can go for the pyramids.

Got it, assume we will do 20 turns in the first round though it isn't clear from Greebleys log.

Well a big decision is do we want the Pyramdis. From everything I have been reading on AW and WW you need all the help you can to limit WW.

You don't need Pyramids on Prince if you are Persia. The shields are much better spent on Immortals to harrass the AI. You don't need them on AWM small either. Monarch regular map maybe.

Best way for us to fight WW is to locate the luxuries you can hook up before calendar. Gold, Silver, Ivory, Gems. Our cities may stay rather small, but the AI will be smaller becuase of the immortal on sentry next to them.

We really won't use archery either in this game (again unique to playing as Persia) , but we definitly want to learn how to chop trees asap. The Sierra Club is going to hate what we will do the the forest. :D

We need to get immortals out asap to pillage AI resources and park next to the capitals. We won't go on offense for a while, until we have the AI totally pinned down. But once we do...it's like old times in C3 with a steamroller.

I think it is the lack of immediate need for pottery ( you want it eventually) and archery combined with the immortals 50% bonus versus archers that may give us a chance with them on AWE or even AWD if we can refine this strategy a bit.

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/H25_AWP_BC-1625.Civ4SavedGame)

1. 2160BC
building the pasture and roaming around, warrior spots nice farmland of Asoka

2. 2120BC
step onto the farm :mischief:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/h252120.jpg

3. 2080BC
our scout almost got eaten up by a lion, needs to rest 8 turns
an Indian warrior has stepped up to face our warrior
I still plunder the farm for 7gold and hope he will not attack with even odds

IT pottery in, mining (and bronze next for cutting the trees)
the Indian warrior walks off :)

4. 2040BC
step right next to Delhi and we can see the GOS at work already
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/h252040.jpg

5. 2000BC
spot a rice paddie in India, our horse pasture is done, swap tiles for more shields

6. 1975BC
while healing a wolf attacks the scout that is now at 0.2 health, but can get a promotion
step onto the rice where a Japanese warrior has shown up
start to road horses

7. 1950BC
pillage the rice for 5 gold while the Japanese warrior moves away

8. 1925BC
I notice that Asoka starts to fall behind in score from position #1
swap Persepolis to an immortal, rax can be finished later with a chop

9. 1900BC
zzzz

10. 1875BC
spot Monte's land in the south of India, maybe we should pay him a visit
start on cow pasture

11. 1850BC
move south and scout can finally move again

12. 1825BC
mining is in, next Bronze Working (18 turns though) for the said chops

13. 1800BC
stepping further into Monte's land

14. 1775BC
we get our 1st immortal just in time to face that Indian warrior we spotted before
order another immortal just in case
at Monte
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/h251775.jpg

15. 1750BC
well, our warrior dies at the hands of Monte, revenge is waiting, we will send an immortal soon
Persepolis grows to pop3 and the Indian warrior moves in a weird direction
immortal kills a scout, MM capital, next immortal in 3 since we can now work the cows as well

16. 1725BC
moving around to follow that Indian warrior

17. 1700BC
he runs off, immortal done in 1 turn, so swap to rax in 5, we can always swap back if we urgently need the immortal
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/h251700.jpg

18. 1675BC
zzz

19. 1650BC
immortal is healed and runs after that warrior, scout recons Incan land

20. 1625BC
worker starts a cottage for faster research (6 turns)
immortal chases warrior and takes him out, he will be up for promotion next turn
would send it after Tokugawa and then Incans in the west

rax is done in 2, suggest to build a few immortals before we start to think of expansion
We need at least 4 of them for our GOS, but more won't hurt
once bronze is in (9 turns), we can chop all the forests for faster immortals/settlers

our land
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/h251625b.jpg

Incan land
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/h251625a.jpg

I have it, although it is late here. I'll play in the AM. What should our next research project be?

I think that archery wasn't really needed for this kind of game. I don't think we will ever build archers.
However, we might need some swords or even cats to take towns (hopefully not necessary).

Thus I would go for for Iron working (also reveals the iron that we need to keep disconnected)
After that writing -> maths -> construction

I would like at least some kind of defender in our towns. Archers are cheap to build. That is why I would build some.

Immortals cost the same as archers and have a 50% bonus to them so we can use them as city defenders verus AI archers. Their mobility is a big plus as a defender also. If we start chopping immortals asap we should be able to pillage and stagnate the AI before they have the time & techs to build enough good units (axmen) to pose any real threat to our cities. If the AI was aggressive and streamed units at us like in C3 we would need to be worried. As long as we immortal rush their capitals we should be okay without archers.

A Bugsy update - I am on my second attempt at downloading the patch. For some reason I lost the internet connection on the first attempt, so I lost an hour's time there. I have 15 minutes left on my second attempt. After this, the playing will be easy.

Pre-flight – (1625 BC) Well first I have to get the patch. The loading time is about 10% of what it was. And the game is so much smoother to play. I like it. No changes to our city.

IBT – Our immortal in the woods kills three Incan Quechuas and earns two promotions.

Persepolis: barracks=>immortal=>immortal

1525 – Our first immortal finally gets into Japanese lands and begins to pillage.

1425 – We reach the Japanese city of Osaka with our second Immortal and we kill a defending warrior.

BW=>IW We revolt to slavery.

1400 – I kill the defending warrior and Osaka is rubble.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/Handy25_-_Osaka.JPG

1375 – Kill a Japanese archer.

1350 – Kill a Quechua.
IBT – Immortal=>immortal
1325 – Kill another Japanese archer and we’re able to move forward for some suppression.

1300- Move an immortal off towards the Incas.
IBT – Kill an Indian warrior. Forrest chop gets us an immortal.

1250 – Start pillaging in Indian lands. I have lost track of the number of turns I have played. I think it is 16, but 1250 BC is a traditional stopping point, so I’ll stop here.

Here’s the situation in Japan:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/Handy25_-_1250_BC_Japan.JPG

And here are our fierce troops approaching Delhi:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/Handy25_-_1250_BC_India.JPG

Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/H25_AWP_BC-1250.Civ4SavedGame

:thumbsup:

Roster
1. Handy -
2. Greebley -
3. ThERat -
4. Sir Bugsy -
5. LKendter - UP

We revolt to slavery.
I've never reolted to slavery since I seldom whip cities to finish a build. Is there another reason to revolt? Not being critical here, just trying to understand if there is a benefit I'm missing. Good call to attack a city defended by a warrior.


Going Forward

If a city is defended by archers I usually like an attack ratio of 2 to 1. Thus for a 2 archer garrison attack with 4 immortals. Worst case the first round of attacks lose, but wound the archer. The second wave can then finish them off.

If a city has a new lux/resource or provideds borders on the way to the front we should consider keeping it. Otherwize rubble.

Main goal now is to find each capital, pillage it and sentry the archer in forest nearby where he can move out each turn to make sure no settlers or improvements are boing made. Any non capital city will also need an oppressor, but capitals are prioruty #1.

Once we have the AI locked down tight we can build an attack stack to begin taking cities.

Chop all the forrest for fast rax, workers, settlers, immortals.

It was only one turn of anarchy so I went for it. I didn't think we planned on whipping our people, I just thought it would be better to have something other than the basic civics. Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong, and it certainly won't be the last. There are a lot of things I need to learn about this new game.

Well I am trying to get it. If the file ever decides to download...

Did I mess up posting the game? Please let me know. :blush: Well of course you're going to let me know. :rolleyes:

Did I mess up posting the game? Please let me know. :blush: Well of course you're going to let me know. :rolleyes:

The problem was late night my wi-fi connection went to wi-try. I did eventually get the file.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/H25AWPBC-1000.zip


1250 BC
It seems so weird to play an AW game and have the whole map exposed. This goes so against my minimal map exploring from my Civ3 AW days.

This early in the game there isn't much to review, so no changes.
(IT) Japan throws away an archer.


1225 BC
India loses a warrior.


1200 BC
(IT) Even our warrior can kill an archer on defense. ;)


1175 BC
The pillaging campaign begins at Cuzco. It also begins at Delhi.


1050 BC
Pillaging begins at Tenochtitlan.
(IT) I see the first barbarian warrior. Will this map get flooded with barbarian cities?


==========================

Summary:
Immortals seem broken with AW. I expect Handy to wipe Delhi off the map.

Roster
1. Handy - (currently playing)
2. Greebley - (on deck)
3. ThERat -
4. Sir Bugsy -
5. LKendter -

Summary:
Immortals seem broken with AW. I expect Handy to wipe Delhi off the map.
Maybe as handy suggested, thisa can be taken at monarch difficulty. or, to have a nicer challenge, use a different Civ which makes it a tougher game. but an archer rush with GOS should also be possible.

This goes so against my minimal map exploring from my Civ3 AW days.

Just one of many tactics that worked well for C3 but hurts you in C4 because of how the AI reacts. Given that so many civs have or build scouts in C4 it's hard to avoid meeting everyone unless they are across the ocean.

I got it.

I see the first barbarian warrior. Will this map get flooded with barbarian cities? Not flooded, but the barbs will have the best units (swords and axe-men) so we need to watch for that. I've yet to see a barb spear. I wonder if they make them.

Turn 1 980
We take Delhi and 128 gold.
Worker starts chopping a rax.

Turn 2 960
Locate Bombay

Turn 3 940
Pillage Tenochtitlan

Turn 4 920
Pillage

Turn 5 900
Kyoto is locked down

Turn 6 880
Aztecs have a settler and 2 archers loose. Perhaps we can intercept.

Turn 7 860
Silly archer at Bombay suicides on our immortal sentry.
Kill one of the archer escorts.
Half a rax chopped at Delhi.

Turn 8 840
The Aztecs founded a second city on a hill before we could trap the settler.
:hmm: Might be time for us to chop a settler and grab the ivory lux W of our capital. Roads for Immortals would be good also.

Turn 9 820
Kill a warrior for the easy promotion.
Two Japanese archers are approaching the capital, so a immortal is sent to deal with them.

Turn 10 800
We enter classical era. Select Masonry.
Kill the 2 Japanese archers near the capital.
Monty has an archer & 2 warriors moving on Delhi, which should be no problem.
Start chopping a settler in the capital that can go and secure the ivory. The setter is in the queue after the immortal.
May want to also chop a second worker in the capital.
As soon as the barracks in Delhi is done you can chop all the forest for quick immortals there to go and sentry the smaller secondary cities that have been founded to make sure no copper gets hooked up. We can’t afford to fight spears.
Exposed AI units on forest-free tiles offer easy promotions.
If you don't think we need another setter you can change the queue.

Roster
1. Handy -
2. Greebley - UP
3. ThERat -
4. Sir Bugsy -
5. LKendter -


FYI this is a good bit harder on a Regular sized map. If you have to found a second city to gain access to horses even more so. :D

I got it and will play this weekend.

Well I continued to build Immortals and to suppress the opposition. The AI totally doesn't know how to respond to this threat. This is one case where the AI in Civ3 is stronger than in Civ4, since the response of sending units towards the offending player means he has to defend.

Send more units to suppress Yellow AI. They have some cities with no suppression. I drew arrows in the picture below to show what I mean.

Be aware that the AI is next to our Iron (indicated in picture below)

I would be really suprised if the immortal didn't get an increase in cost in a patch. A speed 2 strength 4 unit that costs as much as an Archer to build is definitely unbalanced.

We got our Iron connected and starting to build a swordsman. We actually used Archery BTW. Since our new town didn't have horses, it was that or a Warrior.

Once we have some swords, I think we can go on the offensive.

Science is set to go straight for Catapults. Not sure if there are side techs that make more sense. Cats to lower city defenses will make it much easier to take out the AI. Right now the Archers in a city with +40 defense are too strong for us.

There were very few battles my turn.

We now have iron within the radius of the capitol We may want to connect it.

I would also build another worker or two.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/Handy25_BC600.jpg

Roster
1. Handy -
2. Greebley -
3. ThERat - up
4. Sir Bugsy -
5. LKendter -

Good point about using archery. We will have to remember that in future games.

Also agree with beeline for cats, although with a big enough stack of immortals we can suicide a few and take a capital.

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/H25AWP_BC-0400.Civ4SavedGame)

Pre-Turn
capital will finish settler in 2, but there is no unit to even protect the worker outside our borders, change to immortal in 3 first
we don't need nasty surprises here
Delhi is pop4 and at happy limit, MM and the sword build goes down to 6

I think we ought to go on the offense on flat land where odds are in our favor. swords will surely help

IT 2 foolish India archer commit suicide on our immortal on the iron

1. 580BC
defeat an archer, but lose 1 immortal at Bombay.

IT our western immortal defeats 3 Incan archerd on defense (he ran into them near their 3rd town)

2. 560BC
lose another immortal totally against all odds, but succeed to beat 2 more archers and Bombay is ours.
kepp it since it's in a nice strategic location. India is gone

3. 540BC
healing, capital built immortal, back to settler

4. 520BC
writing is in, maths next

IT now this can get nasty, we lose an immortal to a jaguar (strength 5). I think we should try and get rid of Aztecs first
they are the biggest threat.

5. 500BC
beat an Incan archer next to Bombay

6. 480BC
our first sword is done, send it towards Aztecs

7. 460BC
moving, set capital to worker after it has produced 2 more immortals

8. 440BC
there is an Aztec jag out now near Delhi
odds are no good, try to get him to attack us instead
found a 4th city, income is horribly low

9. 420BC
jaguar now next to Delhi and iron but both tiles are defended by 2 units

IT jag dies at our archer in Delhi, also defeat another jag outside their capital.

10. 400BC
send sword out now, suggest we go after that Aztec town that is on flat, the hill town has bad odds
We have some more units from the capital coming to reinforce. Suggest to go after that Aztec town then some
Incan towns and also the Japanese capital, all on flat with good odds.
just sent a worker to connect iron at capital

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/handy15400.jpg

I have it. I'll play tomorrow.

I think we should try and get rid of Aztecs first
they are the biggest threat.Good idea. The Aztecs don't need any resource to build their UU.

Pre-flight - 400 BC – Go through our cities. The capitol isn’t growing, but it is throwing everthing into making immortals. Since I haven’t heard that the old adage “pop is power” has been rendered null and void in Civ IV, we’ll start it growing ever so slightly. Everything else is looking pretty good. We are running a serious deficit on our budget. -17gpt with nothing in the bank. I have to drop science to 10%.

IBT – Tokogawa moves one of his three defenders out of Kyoto.

380 – Move our immortals next to Kyoto for attack. Start marching on Azteca.

360 – We kill one archer at Kyoto, attack with the second and…
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/Handy25_-_Kyoto.JPG

Well the 67G helps our deficit spending over the short term. Start marching on Tlatelolco.

340 – Attacking Tlatelolco, we lose a sword, but take the city.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/Handy25_-_Tlatelolco.JPG

Well that is certainly one way to stay solvent financially.

320 – Continue marching and healing. A barb city has popped up southwest of Persepolis.

300 – Almost ready for the Aztec capitol.

IBT – A Jag warrior step out of their western city.

280 – That’s a force of two Jags and an archer. Kill an archer in the new Barb City.

260 – Attack the barb City and…
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/Handy25_-_Barb_City.JPG

We now have six attackers at Tenochtitlan.

240 – Attack at Tenochtitlan. Those 40% defenses cause us to lose three immortals and only kill one archer.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/Handy25_-_Tenochtitlan_I.JPG

Here is the developing situation at Bombay:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/Handy25_-_Bombat_Situation.JPG

IBT – We lose an immortal outside Tenochtitlan, and we kill an attacking archer. That leaves one defender in the city.

220 – We lose an immortal, but our sword kills the remaining defender and…
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/Handy25_-_Tenochtitlan_II.JPG

IBT – We win two of three at Bombay. Iron is on-line.

200 – Marching and healing.

After Action: Here is the situation in Old India:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/Handy25_-_India.JPG

I’m sure Lee doesn’t need any instruction . In hindsight, I’m not sure it was such a wise move keeping all those cities. I think they are costing us some $$$ that we really don’t have.

Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/H25AWP_BC-0200.Civ4SavedGame

I’m sure Lee doesn’t need any instruction . In hindsight, I’m not sure it was such a wise move keeping all those cities. I think they are costing us some $$$ that we really don’t have.

This is a hard call. On smaller maps where the game will soon end it seems best to raze them. Larger maps (longer games) they seem to pay off a bit more. One quirk of C4 is that 5cc or perhaps even 1cc may be easier in certain cases (depends on levels & maps I guess) than domination.

An interesting game to play is AW with the "No Raze" button selected. "City State" is also fun (12 or so civs on a duel map).

Roster
1. Handy -
2. Greebley -
3. ThERat -
4. Sir Bugsy -
5. LKendter - up

I got it.

Hopefully I can figure out my ongoing wi-fi problems and post back today. Wi-fi has been horrid since 12/26.

I just looked at the save. I think keeping all those cities is economic suicide. even with 0% science we run a huge deficit.
I suggest to work now all commerce tiles, build cottages whereever possible. No more workers as they increase unit cost. infrastructure yes, but only military.
And please, do not keep any more towns, raze is all we can afford.

We could also let the AI take a city with a small force by leaving it empty to take it back the next turn and raze it. The only problem is that we probably want to raze cities that are out of the way so I don't know if any AI will wander by.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/H25AWPAD-0001.zip


200 BC
We have completely shot ourselves in the foot. This isn't a 9MM, but an 88 mm flak shell. At 0% science we bleed $9/turn. I have completed turned off science trying to desperate save some money.
At $0 and negative gold means our troops go on strike. At that point we are completely out of control of the game. If I can't fix things the game collapses on Handy's turn. The situation gets worse as Tenochtitlan isn't costing us any maintenance in resistance.

I have to make a desperate move and leave to size one Aztec cities open. Unless we loss some cities, this game is frelled.
(IT) A jag kills an immortal in Bombay.


180 BC
(IT) That same jag dies trying to kill the other immortal in Bombay.


160 BC
We are now bleeding an obscene $12 a turn after reviewing our cities again and taking commerce at any cost.
If workers are including with striking units, then we have no way to fix this game.
(IT) An AI archer is dead.


80 BC
Scratch an AI archer.


40 BC
(IT) The sacrifice of Tenochtitlan just saved us. We now break even at 0% science. At least our troops won't go on strike.

==========================

Summary:
This game is a total mess. Workers need to concentrate on roads to create trade routes and cottages. Nothing else really matters.
I don't even know what to do with our cities, and we really can't afford the unit cost of more immortals.

Despite my attempts to fix the economy we are back at -2 a turn with just $19 in the bank.
We are going to have to win this game with immortals - period. Our tech pace is non-existent despite my pushing commerce and connecting cities for trade routes.


Roster
1. Handy - (currently playing)
2. Greebley - (on deck)
3. ThERat -
4. Sir Bugsy -
5. LKendter -

exactly what I expected after opening the last save. what I would do is cottage spam anywhere we can and then maybe take the combined force to raze that Incan city on flat with immortals. This will give us money.

I would also leave the ex Aztec capital empty so the barbs can take that city. The Japanese capital is alos unnecessary and should be given up to barbs and then later razed.
Luckily the AI is almost gassed except for Incans.

So, pull some units together and raze towns, nothing else matters. And I think swords are better than immortals

I got it.

Immortals & zero research is the usual pattern in solo games. Unless I find a big surprise when I open this we should be okay....I think... I hope.

Wait until we play an AW no raze game. :D

And I think swords are better than immortals Yes, but not too much better and they cost more. Remember, immortals are 4 attack with a 50% bonus versus archers. And swords are slow.

If we are spending cash for unit costs, we can throw troops at cities and try to take them at longer odds. We lose units which lowers costs, but also don't need as many units to suppress cities.

I have used this technique in Civ3 when we have had too many units. However, in that case more cities is good rather than bad.

It seems better than disbanding units to get costs down at least.

Edit: I looked at the game. There is an archer we can take out with a 98+ chance of success in the preturn. I would go ahead and do so.
There is also an attack on The Aztecs. I checked and we only have a 3.2% chance. At that odds, I don't think we will take out the sole Jaguar even with all 3 units. We need a swordsman or something down there as well IMO. I would send the swordman south while covering the town with immortals that we already have.

I never realized you needed a tech (fishing) to work water tiles. Makes sense though. Too bad as we could get more gold that way.

Mostly though, I think the game will be "paused" until we get more commerce. We won't be able to build more units to take out cities right away and gathering an attack force will be hard. We may want to disband workers after they finish.

Well it seems I have learned something in hindsight. I should have raze those cities instead of capturing them. My bad gents. Chalk that up to Bugsy learning through the school of hard knocks. Sorry.

Commentary:
It’s not too bad. :D This is just how it goes in C4 AW because of the game setup. Our economy just crashes, which is why we must make sure the AI economy also crashes.

The only real “errors” were not hooking up ivory sooner, building granaries we did not need, keeping (not razing) a couple of cities we did not need so much, and not founding a city to get luxury #2 and 3 which would have allowed for growth and perhaps helped the economy a little bit. But we will win and learn, which is good thing. :goodjob:

Pre-turn
I noticed we still need to hook up the ivory. This will allow us to grow with a happy face in each city which can produce more gold.
Cottages on dyes & flood plains are a good income source if we have workers near Bombay.
I still have yet to figure out how trade routes work. All out cities are connected, but no clear routes to all cities.
AI is locked down pretty well, so we look in great shape for a pretty quick win.
All cities can be razed from here on.
Also – remember when you chop a library you can then hire a scientist in cities with extra food. I am not sure if we built granaries or if we captured them, but we don’t need the granaries points on a small map. That’s C3 thinking.

Turn 1 20 ad
Start to assemble an attack squad for Manchu Picchu and begin work on the Ivory. We can take cities for cash. It is a good way to win at AWP and AWM.

Turn 2 40 ad
Kill archer. Notice Lee had begun a camp on one of the ivory. :thumbsup:
It is done so I begin a road.

Turn 3 60ad
Delhi has loads of food. If the game would last longer I’d chop a library so we can hire a scientist and place cottages on the plains to slow growth.
The Ivory camp makes the people happy. :D

Turn 4 80
Ugh. Barb axe-men. They are a PITA and we have no defense in our rear where they have appeared. :hmm: How do they build axe-men with no copper?
It’s 4 on 2 at Manchu Picchu so we attack and raze the city losing one immortal and gaining 114 gold. We burn it.
Kill a stray archer at Cuzco.
Sometimes I try to plan ahead & build cottages on the plains when you know you will not grow beyond size 5 or 6 (Delhi). Grow fast with grass then switch to plains. If you overbuild on grass and grow too big you wind up unhappy and lose the ability to work the cottage anyway. Fast growth was always good in C3, in C4 it’s a different game.
Hope to avoid using our new bank to upgrade a warrior to kill the axe-man.

Turn 5 100
A second axe-man appears in the north – where of course there is no copper that we do not control. I reset the capital to max production for some quick immortal axe-man killers.

Turn 6 120
Lose 1 immortal killing an axe-man.

Turn 7 140
Healing in preparation for an assault on Tiakanaku

Turn 8 160
Dumb Axe-man attacks fortified city in lieu of pillaging and he is toast.
We could get 2 more luxuries (fur and silver) with a city N of Kyoto after border expansion. I don’t think we will need it, but it would let us grow & boost the number of cottages we could work. Bigger map we would do it.

Turn 9 180
Archers at Tiwanaku sense our plans and suicide against an immortal fortified in the trees.

Turn 10
We build a granary in Bombay. I don’t see much use for granaries in a game like this one. Am I missing something?

Future.
I think we can end this pretty fast. Heal a couple more turns, then raze Tiwanaku, Teotihuacan and the mystery yellow borders for cash. Attack with two times the number of garrison units in secondary cities.

Next attack the capitals with three times the number of units garrisoned and they will fall easily.

I think our ability to steal cash will keep the economy afloat, but I started some cottages anyway. ;)


http://static.flickr.com/41/81851266_0acc0d864c_o.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/43/81851270_3728fae891_o.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/36/81851269_f3dd340b92_o.jpg

I would just build immortals, but if you prefer swords that's okay. Immortals move twice as fast and are great versus archers, which is just about all we will face. Suicide immortals on the first wave & raze cities with the second wave (it may well take a third wave for a capital city).

Roster
1. Handy -
2. Greebley - up
3. ThERat -
4. Sir Bugsy -
5. LKendter

Problem is that one of our two opponents isn't building Archers - he it building strength 5 Jaguars. For that I feel we need swords.

I got it.

The only real “errors” were not hooking up ivory sooner, building granaries we did not need, keeping (not razing) a couple of cities we did not need so much, and not founding a city to get luxury #2 and 3 which would have allowed for growth and perhaps helped the economy a little bit.

The granaries were to avoid building more immortals. We are one the verge on economic collapse during my turns. Libraries weren't any better at zero science. We were already suffering from unit cost problems.
Given a choice of granaries or troops on strike, I chose granaries.

The granaries were to avoid building more immortals. We are one the verge on economic collapse during my turns. Libraries weren't any better at zero science. We were already suffering from unit cost problems.
Given a choice of granaries or troops on strike, I chose granaries.Ok. That makes sense.

I finished this one off. It took a bit more than 10 turns, but most of those turns was shifting our units south to take out the final Aztec city. I wasn't even caring what we built or how bad our gold was.

We won by conquest in 390 AD.

Turn 150 (200 AD)

Turn 151 (210 AD)

Turn 152 (220 AD)
Immortal defeats (1.44/4): Barbarian Archer
Immortal loses to: Incan Archer (0.72/3)
Immortal loses to: Incan Quechua (0.24/2)
Immortal defeats (4.00/4): Incan Archer
Immortal defeats (3.04/4): Incan Archer
Immortal defeats (1.12/4): Incan Archer
Immortal loses to: Incan Archer (0.12/3)
Immortal loses to: Aztec Jaguar (0.60/5)

Turn 153 (230 AD)
Immortal defeats (4.00/4): Incan Archer
Immortal defeats (1.28/4): Incan Quechua
Razed Tiwanaku

User comment: Turn on some resarch we have 195 gold

Turn 154 (240 AD)

Turn 155 (250 AD)
Immortal defeats (3.28/4): Barbarian Axeman

Turn 156 (260 AD)

Turn 157 (270 AD)
Decide research is pointless.

Turn 158 (280 AD)


Turn 159 (290 AD)
Immortal defeats (3.44/4): Barbarian Archer
Swordsman defeats (2.40/6): Aztec Jaguar
Immortal defeats (3.16/4): Aztec Archer
Razed Tenochtitlan

User comment: Aztecs have 1 city left.

Turn 160 (300 AD)
Immortal loses to: Barbarian Swordsman (0.30/6)
Immortal defeats (3.84/4): Barbarian Swordsman

Immortal defeats (1.28/4): Incan Archer
Immortal loses to: Incan Archer (3.00/3)

Turn 161 (310 AD)
Immortal defeats (1.72/4): Incan Archer
Immortal defeats (2.48/4): Incan Archer
Captured Ollantaytambo (Huayna Capac)
User comment: Stupidly hit the wrong button. Fortunately, it won't matter.

Turn 162 (320 AD)
Immortal defeats (2.48/4): Incan Quechua
Immortal defeats (3.08/4): Incan Archer
Razed Cuzco

User comment: Interesting. The autologger didn't seem to have a message that Mali is eliminated. This was their last city. I am on turn 12 but it is simply a matter of moving troops to the last AI city. We totally outnumber them.

Turn 163 (330 AD)
Swordsman loses to: Aztec Jaguar (4.00/5)
Immortal loses to: Aztec Archer (3.00/3)

Turn 164 (340 AD)

Turn 165 (350 AD)
Immortal defeats (3.28/4): Aztec Jaguar
Immortal defeats (0.08/4): Aztec Jaguar
Immortal defeats (4.00/4): Barbarian Archer

Turn 166 (360 AD)
Swordsman defeats (0.90/6): Barbarian Archer
Archer defeats (1.92/3): Aztec Jaguar
Ollantaytambo lost

User comment: I let the barbarians have the city so I can raze it next turn.

Turn 167 (370 AD)
Immortal defeats (2.32/4): Barbarian Warrior
Captured Ollantaytambo (Barbarian)

User comment: Doh! There was no option to raze. Once you capture you automatically capture the next time. Glad I learned that on this map where it totally doesnt matter. Note that we are running around -20 gold or so but have plenty from taking out cities.

Turn 168 (380 AD)
Swordsman loses to: Aztec Archer (1.68/3)
Immortal defeats (0.96/4): Aztec Archer
Immortal defeats (2.32/4): Aztec Archer
Razed Teotihuacan

User comment: Aztecs are destroyed. Saved game before and after taking the city.

Turn 169 (390 AD)

The score was pretty nice. 38k or so. I attached the game after the last city falls in case anyone wanted to see the replay.

Couldn't think of a picture that would be in any way meaningful.

though we played this badly with lots of learning it was still a cakewalk. How about monarch difficulty and a larger map to get some real challenge here.

I read Moonsingers exploitive strategy to beat deity. Using chopping and Rome but without barbs. And using anarchy to avoid deficit.

But honestly, I don't think such a game is very nice. I rather have to work harder for the victory.

Anyway, congrats to the Grumpy Team :goodjob:

Well done team. We really need to avoid the exploits. Even this strategy seemed exploitive. Sort of like pillaging with armies in Civ III.

So what's next?

I think the immortal itself is part of the unbalance - having attack 4 and speed 2 and +50% vs archers at the cost of an archer? That is very potent. It might be interesting to try these ideas but with a civ that isn't Persia. Or on a standard map.

The suppression idea though probably works in all games. At least one can suppress a neighbor or two using normal units. That way the neighbor can be taken out more easily.

If we do play Monarchy of this game (even with persia), I would like to play a standard map with two continents. Then the supression works for the first continent, but we can't totally ignore the long term because of the second one. We also have to balance growth.

we could try Persia again but as suggested on continents. That would mean that we need to think about our own empire as well in stead of just chopping everything. That would make the game more of a challenge IMHO.

Also, we can up the difficulty to monarch. Immortals are very good at the start and this should give us a chance to compete with a monarch AI overseas later on.

I like Rat's idea.

You guys go on without me, too much RL for the next few weeks. I’ll PM you when I’m back.

Also - to be honest - C4 has not grabbed my attention the way C3 did. Too much fun has been removed for my taste.

Also - to be honest - C4 has not grabbed my attention the way C3 did. Too much fun has been removed for my taste.

AW has become a totally different beast. The insanity of troops appearing every turn is gone. With the handy series being mosty AW (IIRC) I fully understand that comment.


Civ4 is working for me at the moment. What I don't know is if it will survive as long. At least 1.52 is fixied a lot of the problems even it it made combat worse.

so are we going for immortals on continents, which size and which difficulty. playtested immortals on monarch difficulty. It isn't that simple any longer in my mind.

And who is willing to play another round?

I would be. Do you want to start it ThERat?

ok, will start a game called Handy 26 AWM - Overpowered Persians late tonight.

As for participants, I guess we have everyone in, handy is also there. LK, are you willing to join as well?