Tried this out for the first time last night (Monarch difficulty, Epic Speed). I started with bronzeworking for worker chop before bee-lining to Code of Laws, but it wouldn't have mattered. The oracle was built about 1000 BC (by someone else) and I was still about 20 turns away from having Code of Laws researched.

So my question is, what difficulty level and game speed have you had success with this strategy?

Don't understand your question. You bee-line for PRIESTHOOD, then chop-rush the oracle, then get the code of laws (or whatever) as a free tech. I have had success with this in emperor. And I always play normal speed, standard size map, 7 civs.

There is a strategy commonly referred to as the CS Slingshot where you instead of taking Code of Laws as your free tech with the Oracle you research Code of Laws normally and time completion of the Oracle so that you can take Civil Service as your free tech. In my game last night I was beaten to the Oracle by the AI while waiting for Code of Laws to be researched. I am wondering if I am doing something wrong or if this strategy is only useful at lower levels or faster game speeds...

On Monarch, I'd say you're definitely taking a gamble going for Oracle -> CS. 1200 BC seems to be about the average build time for the Oracle on Monarch (looking back at a couple of my saved games.) Unless you've got something like a couple of gem/gold tiles around your capital, you'll have a pretty tough time reaching CoL before the AI builds the Oracle. I think you'd be better off taking Theology or CoL for your free tech. At Noble, I'n pretty confident I could get CS. At Prince, I'd still be hesitant to try unless I knew I had a pretty good tech jump on everyone. CoL is such a useful tech (courthouses + caste system + Confucianism) I have no problem getting that as a free tech while researching along the top (Writing + Alphabet) path normally.

I do it routinely on Prince. You definately need to build it before 1000 BC, despite being able to do so late its not consistent as some games AI will built it that early, even in prince.

The overiding point is that you can chop rush while the AI does this only with improvement so production isn't a concern, the tech rate is. Sounds to me that your tech rate is too slow.

I can't possibly see how you could slingshot to CS on Emperor, probably even on Monarch for that matter, regardless of your civ and your start. There are lots of strategies from lower levels that remain useful higher up in the right situation. The CS slingshot doesn't appear to be one of those - it looks like a bad crutch that's simply impossible at higher levels.

Thanks for the input. I think I could get this to work on Monarch if I did it with a leader that starts with Mysticism and ignored bronzeworking...

It would be a bee-line for Meditation > Priesthood > Writing > Code of Laws

Since Ghandi is one of my favorites anyway I think I will try it out with him tonight... He starts with mining, so I might even have time to grab bronzeworking first if I have gems or gold or silver in my start...

Thanks for the input. I think I could get this to work on Monarch if I did it with a leader that starts with Mysticism and ignored bronzeworking...

It would be a bee-line for Meditation > Priesthood > Writing > Code of Laws

Since Ghandi is one of my favorites anyway I think I will try it out with him tonight... He starts with mining, so I might even have time to grab bronzeworking first if I have gems or gold or silver in my start...

Unless you happen to start with marble in your capital radius, you are very unlikely to get the Oracle at Monarch without chop rushing it, which means that skipping bronze is inadvisable. (Actually, scratch that, Writing and Code will take you so long to research you'll be holding the Oracle one turn from completion for 25 turns).

Holding it one turn from completion until you get Code of Laws will take many many restarts before you get lucky enough to get it. I just don't see how it's even possible; code of laws is going to take you 30 turns or so, Priesthood is a 5 turn tech, and even a crappy AI civ will build the oracle in 10 turns on Monarch.


If you're just looking for the ultimate start, I think an amazing spot for the capital city at start will still usually outperfrom this slingshot, and it will happen a lot more frequently. Or maybe you can get the two to go hand-in-hand; a 3-gold tile start would really help you get code researched fast enough to have a shot at this.

Try it in the editor and see if at Monarch level it's even possible.

well I ended up with a Monarch start last night that had both marble and 1 gold tile in the capital radius. I was able to achieve the CS Slingshot. The oracle was built at 860ad, which I think was a bit of luck that the AI didn't prioritize it.

However I only had 2 cities compared to the AI's 4-5 cities and I wasn't that impressed with the results from implementing the early bueracracy civic. It seems to me that choosing Code of Laws or Theology and focusing on growth and expansion early on is a better strategy at Monarch. I think in some verys specific circumstances this could still be a valid start, but I just don't tend to play those maps or get that lucky on starting position.

Try it in the editor and see if at Monarch level it's even possible.

Just curious. What editor are you refering to?

the world builder which you can acess even during a running game (just check the menu)

well I ended up with a Monarch start last night that had both marble and 1 gold tile in the capital radius. I was able to achieve the CS Slingshot. The oracle was built at 860ad, which I think was a bit of luck that the AI didn't prioritize it.

:eek: Wow! I think you were incredibly lucky. I think the Oracle goes faster than that on noble, and maybe even Chieftain games.

However I only had 2 cities compared to the AI's 4-5 cities and I wasn't that impressed with the results from implementing the early bueracracy civic. It seems to me that choosing Code of Laws or Theology and focusing on growth and expansion early on is a better strategy at Monarch. I think in some verys specific circumstances this could still be a valid start, but I just don't tend to play those maps or get that lucky on starting position.

I would think that, the smaller your civ, the more useful Bureaucracy would be. It's one of my favorite civics and 9 times out of 10 it makes my capital into my super science/gold city.

It makes little sense to go for this on Monarch+

Odds are you'll lose the Oracle while you're researching Code of Laws. Even if you did manage it, you'd probably just get pummeled with something like Alexander's chariot rushes, because you skipped all the military techs.

I have been testing this opening on monarch for a week or two and while it is by no means a guarantee that you can get COL researched before another civ gets the oracle it is not an impossibility. In fact, when I am able to pull this off (maybe 20% of the time with a random civ, definately 50% or more if you get a good starting spot or pick a civ w/ financial to help w/ research rate) I almost always build the pyramids before the oracle due to waiting for COL (depends on the game, if I don't have stone or marble nearby I will often wait on masonry). One thing I have noticed is that there are times when I will research COL and NOT FOUND confucionism becasue some AI already has it but hasn't built the Oracle. I think certain Civs must value certain wonders more than others as I can't see why a civ that could beat me to COL wouldn't also beat me to the Oracle.

I think the key to successfully doing this is you need to focus almost exclusively on your tech rate from day 1. For example, if I'm trying the cs rush, I will work a 2 food 2 commerce inland lake square before I work a 3 food square or a 1 food 2 hammer forrest purely to speed up research. You also need to get writing asap and assign at least one scientist so that you can get an academy up before col is finished. Ill usually skip several of the food related techs if I have a couple of good 3 food tiles early. You also need to make liberal use of the chop as well as consider poprushing some infrastructure (Granary is my favorite poprush building). I almost always choose the wheel-pottery path to writing early on in these games (right after BW if I have mining) and wait on the religious techs until last.

Last comment: I don't know that the CS slingshot is any more successful on monarch than several other possible starts, as I generally find that I am significantly behind militarily and usually give back some of my tech lead (if any) while boosting military production after I complete the slingshot. I also tend to play continents maps which may make the slingshot easier due to isolation and lots of good coastal town spots for early commerce.

Every time people talk about building the oracle on high levels, I start to get suspicious.

on monarch i have sucessfully bee-lined from poly to mono and had the prerequisites necessary to gain theocracy as my free tech from oracle.
brings me to medievil age really fast.
also allows theocracy as a civic and no non-state spread. helps me have 1 religion only and spread it

I have gotten CS as my free tech twice on prince level. Both times, it was definitely not to my benefit, as it hampered me from getting other important techs, and slowed my expansion. I am sure that it is possible to get SC from the oracle at higher difficulty levels, but i dont think that it is beneficial to do so. I wouldnt even bother getting the oracle at monarch or above, but that's largely dependent on the civ's that i usually choose.

I've come to the conclusion that the CS slingshot on Monarch difficulty is definitely not worth it. I do like to build the Oracle though for Code of Laws and here is my reasoning.


Forces me to focus on writing early which is an excellent tech and a prerequisite for Alphabet. Tech trading is very important! Just don't trade alphabet under any circumstances.
Allows me to ignore early religions in favor of other techs. Since I prefer to focus on Bronze Working first I often miss out on Buddhism or Hinduism.
Early Great Prophet will help me spread Confucianism by building the religious wonder.
The amount of money from a religion plus access to early courthouses means I can support a larger empire earlier.

I've done the CS Slingshot many times on Monarch, and what I haven't seen mentioned so far is the crucial role of the library, 2 scientists, and the Academy. That's what can get you to CoL in time.

It's not advisable for a poor terrain start - but with a couple of specials and prudent selection of techs it can be pulled of with most leaders with a bit of practice. You have to make use of your starting techs to choose what route to take, and some sacrifices will be made - most notably in military. Expect to start defending against incoming barbs around 1200 BC with warriors, but you can soon research & build what you want. Bureacracy is very strong with an academy, and Confucianism a nice bonus.

It can also be done without an academy on a floodplains start by going to writing via pottery and building cottages. This is less good unless the Oracle is built in a second city as it makes it harder to get a Great Scientist with the Oracle in town.

I've come to the conclusion that the CS slingshot on Monarch difficulty is definitely not worth it. I do like to build the Oracle though for Code of Laws and here is my reasoning.


Forces me to focus on writing early which is an excellent tech and a prerequisite for Alphabet. Tech trading is very important! Just don't trade alphabet under any circumstances.
Allows me to ignore early religions in favor of other techs. Since I prefer to focus on Bronze Working first I often miss out on Buddhism or Hinduism.
Early Great Prophet will help me spread Confucianism by building the religious wonder.
The amount of money from a religion plus access to early courthouses means I can support a larger empire earlier.


Though IIRC you are not forced towards Writing if you take the religious path to CoL. In fact, if you started with Mysticism and wanted a really quick CoL you could nip straight through to Priesthood then build the Oracle.

If you want to see how it's possible, do a few test games focusing on the 2 Scientists & Academy and you'll get a feel of when it is or isn't a good idea. There's no magic recipe, you have to play the terrain and starting techs to solve the puzzle.

Every time people talk about building the oracle on high levels, I start to get suspicious.

I get the oracle most of the time on emperor playing an industrious civ. Chopped of course unless I happen to have marble. Anything higher than emperor could be suspicious but if you really push for one early wonder you can get it even on Deity.

I get it pretty much every game on Immortal even if I don't head straight for it. I don't see the issue. Might be impossible on Deity, but it's far from it on lower difficulties. Trying to get Civil Service just sounds stupid, however. It's a gamble that only works on low difficulties with a not that impressive reward (unless you play OCC). I suggest that you give that up, if you ever hope to develop as a player.

So Gufnork, Monarch is a low level to you. Why do you have to call people stupid though, for doing that?

Though IIRC you are not forced towards Writing if you take the religious path to CoL. In fact, if you started with Mysticism and wanted a really quick CoL you could nip straight through to Priesthood then build the Oracle.

If you want to see how it's possible, do a few test games focusing on the 2 Scientists & Academy and you'll get a feel of when it is or isn't a good idea. There's no magic recipe, you have to play the terrain and starting techs to solve the puzzle.

Writing is a prereq for COL no matter what. But you can get to writing by just going Mysticism > Meditation > Priesthood.

Never tried to the route through Pottery or trying for an early Great Scientist for an Acedemy. I would have to eschew Stonehenge though. Something to definitely think about!

Even smart people can do stupid things. I said the strategy sounded stupid, not the people trying it. I don't see why you would risk so much for so little reward. Plus you would have to give the strategy up as soon as you've improved enough to play a new difficulty level.

There's more to Civving than beating the highest levels - like enjoying the game and not being forced down a narrow channel. Not everyone wants to play at Immortal, and many players would rather have fun on, say, Monarch or Prince - where different options are available, than use exploits like infinite anarchy just to beat deity - impressive an achievement though that is.

The Slingshot isn't stupid. It gives you a tech lead on Monarch lasting long into the game. More people play at Monarch and below than above it, so it's a legitimate strategy for most civvers. Not the only, not the best, and certainly not the easiest, but one of the available ones to try, and to have fun with.

Writing is a prereq for COL no matter what. But you can get to writing by just going Mysticism > Meditation > Priesthood.

Never tried to the route through Pottery or trying for an early Great Scientist for an Acedemy. I would have to eschew Stonehenge though. Something to definitely think about!

Right - the religious route to writing must be what I was thinking of. So starting with Myst, there are 3 techs to research before CoL is available for the Oracle.

if you go the mystik way B-lining to oracle you must invest 348 (or 90 with myst starting tech) beakers to start building the oracle and 840 more beakers to get to code of laws.


ill try put it down nicely:
techs: mystik<90>/meditation<144>/priesthood<108>/writing<216>/CoL<630> (total of 1188 beakers)
speed: normal
difficulty (does it matter?): emperor
if you wanna get CoL finished before given date you need:

1ad - Average of 10,3 Beakers per turn
500bc - Average of 12,5 Beakers per turn
1000BC - Average of 15,8 Beakers per turn
1500BC - Average of 17,7 Beakers per turn
2000BC - Average of 23,8 beakers per turn


pottery costs about 144 beakers, this is about 10% of the total cost without pottery, however the cottages may prove usefull.
generally i would strongly advice against CoL+oracle rushing CS, unless blessed with more then 1 gem/silver/gold deposits or other beaker sources
in my test game the oracle was finished at 1080bc (play-game huge-continental settings)

I get it pretty much every game on Immortal even if I don't head straight for it. I don't see the issue. Might be impossible on Deity, but it's far from it on lower difficulties. Trying to get Civil Service just sounds stupid, however. It's a gamble that only works on low difficulties with a not that impressive reward (unless you play OCC). I suggest that you give that up, if you ever hope to develop as a player.


Oh come on, you play every difficulty as if it were diety? Assuming you can't build wonders or tech fast enough like on diety is just going to make you a weak player overall. I play gotm and hof so difficulty varies and I don't ignore strategies simple because they don't work at higher difficulties. I can get paper or better on lower difficulties, but I guess you would just halt research before code so that you only ever get code?

Frankly its sounds like you are the one that needs to develop as a player, you want to use one strategy for all games when in fact the game is much more dynamic than that.

i have ran a test game (prince/huge) with gandhi and got a confucianist bureaucracy at 1600bc

save game attached, i regenerated the map untill i had a gold vein, if it werent next to a river it would probably have taken me a litle longer. if it were silver it would have taken longer, if it were gems i'd faint and go back home.

it might be interesting to note that i could instead have researched philosophy (same beaker cost), if i had wanted to. (bureaucracy is 100x more usefull though)

sorry for dople post but i forgot to attach the save

it might be interesting to note that i could instead have researched philosophy (same beaker cost), if i had wanted to. (bureaucracy is 100x more usefull though)

The Philosophy Slingshot can be used to get Angkor Wat early for a priest-prophet strategy. I haven't tried it myself, though.

I've had something like a 90% success rate on Prince with it, so while I'd suspect that would drop on Monarch, it can still be done fairly reliably (as CH says). The opportunity costs goes up, of course. I tend to make a couple of detours in my tech path on Prince that I'd probably have to cut out on Monarch.

I don't necessarily do it the "pure" way (2 scientists for the GS -> Academy before the Oracle completes), either - I often build/choprush the Oracle in my 2nd city, and I often only run 1 scientist instead of 2.

My typical techpath takes me through Animal Husbandry to Writing, I'll grab BW if possible (starting with mining or getting it from a hut obviously really helps w/this), maybe agriculture if I've a lot of farmable resources around, and then myst-med-priest-code.

Having marble can help, but it also requires a detour for Masonry and you need to hook up the resource (which may very well require the wheel too!), so as often as not, I find that marble is useful for later wonders (GLibrary, Taj) but not the Oracle.

-Arrian

difficulty (does it matter?): emperor
Yes it does matter. Tech cost is more expensive on higher difficulty levels, which is why CS slignshot doesn't work.

Yep... as difficulty ramps up, the lengths one has to go to in order to get to CoL before building the Oracle (and building the Oracle before the AI) increase.

It's a great strat on Prince. It looks solid on Monarch. Emperor and above... maybe not.

-Arrian

Oh come on, you play every difficulty as if it were diety? Assuming you can't build wonders or tech fast enough like on diety is just going to make you a weak player overall. I play gotm and hof so difficulty varies and I don't ignore strategies simple because they don't work at higher difficulties. I can get paper or better on lower difficulties, but I guess you would just halt research before code so that you only ever get code?

Frankly its sounds like you are the one that needs to develop as a player, you want to use one strategy for all games when in fact the game is much more dynamic than that.

True, it might be useful for GOTM and such. And using it once in a while isn't a bad idea, but I wouldn't rely on it if I wanted to develop as a player. If you do not wish to get better, then it might be a good idea, but I thought people visited this forum to become a better player. Everyone can beat Immortal when they've gotten enough insight into the game, it's not like the ones doing it are some kinds of geniuses.

But you're right, I do need to develop as a player, that's why I'm here (that and helping others develop). You're also wrong, I'm one of those least bound by one set strategy. This game require flexibility, I learned that long ago. I'm just saying that relying on a strategy that will eventually stop working will halt your development as a player.

Nice litle thing to know, a great prophet can already boost civil service up 70% after you research code of laws, meditation, polytheism, writing and priesthood. the 70% boost puts civil service a litle over the cost of iron working.

I wasted two hours yesterday trying a CS Slingshot on Prince. :mad: The AI built the Oracle about 12 turns before I'd researched CoL. :mad: Anyway, is CS really all that great to have so early? Macemen can't be built w/out Machinery. Science will generally be at close to 100% so the +50% Gold from Bureacracy is wasted. Irrigation isn't especially important in the BCs. Philosophy would be a better bet.

I'm pretty sure it's +50% commerce with Bureaucracy.

I wasted two hours yesterday trying a CS Slingshot on Prince. :mad: The AI built the Oracle about 12 turns before I'd researched CoL. :mad: Anyway, is CS really all that great to have so early? Macemen can't be built w/out Machinery. Science will generally be at close to 100% so the +50% Gold from Bureacracy is wasted. Irrigation isn't especially important in the BCs. Philosophy would be a better bet.

It's not for the units, but for the economic benefits of Bureaucracy - especially with an Academy in it. It sounds like it took too long to discover CoL. This usually has to be moved along with scientists & an academy for the strategy to work. There's a synergy between running the scientists to create the Academy, and the subsequent economic slingshot of Bur + Academy that is at the heart of this strat. Pull it off on Prince, and as long as you can quickly get a military together (which you can in the uber-capital) you'll have the infrastructure for a tech lead well into the game. Your capital can often blast out settlers every six-or-so turns too with the production boost.

It's not easy at first - I had a few frustrating runs before I understood it, but by trying to master it I learned a lot about the early game. I recommend doing it in test games first, where you're not spending too long on exploring in detail or pondering city placements. If it fails try the same map again and see how it could have been better.

There are several documented examples, on the first AU game over at Apolyton - check out the Apolyton University forum for comparative game DARs with several CS Slingshots fully described.

Thanks for the help! :) I think I spent too much time catching up on basic Worker techs before starting on CoL. While I did have two scientists working in the capital's library, I didn't even get half way to 100GP, so perhaps I built the Library too late.

All you guys suck. Just wait until you see my Fusion Slingshot strategy...

:p :p :p :p

Anyway, is CS really all that great to have so early? Macemen can't be built w/out Machinery. Science will generally be at close to 100% so the +50% Gold from Bureacracy is wasted.

You get +50% commerce from Bureaucracy; i.e., 50% increase in both gold and research output from your capital.