View Full Version : Power Graph Explained v2.0


Thunderfall
Mar 12, 2001, 02:18 AM
(originally posted on the main page)

After the discovery made by Andu Indorin about the elements that affect the power graph on February 16th, Andu did some precise follow-up experiments and discovered more <a href="http://www.civfanatics.com/civ2powergraph.shtml">fascinating results</a>!! This time the discovery is accompanied by illustrations, tables, and numbers. I have converted his article into HTML and added it to the War Academy as a new course. You really don't want to miss this discovery...

>> <a href="http://www.civfanatics.com/civ2strategy1.shtml">Enter the War Academy!</a>

Please post your comments about the discovery below.

Smash
Mar 12, 2001, 02:21 AM
Good work Andu!Very interesting.I'm a little surprised that units play no role whatsoever.

Many player put little credence on the powergraph.There are legitimate reasons proven here.

A 4-size 8 city civ with 60 knights would look pretty meager on the powergraph compared to a 30-size 12 city civ with 30 warriors.

[This message has been edited by Smash (edited March 12, 2001).]

Thunderfall
Mar 12, 2001, 02:22 AM
The discovery is absolutely impressive!!! http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/goodwork.gif http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/goodwork.gif

Thanks for your hard work, Andu. It must had taken you countless tests to reach the conclusions! http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/beerchug.gif

Thunderfall
Mar 12, 2001, 02:24 AM
Originally posted by Smash:
Good work Andu!Very interesting.I'm a little surprised that units play no role whatsoever.

yeah, I always thought the power graph takes # of military units into account. It contains the word "POWER"...

Cimfindriel
Mar 12, 2001, 06:53 AM
I have never myself tried to actually figure out what the power graph represented, but my intuition always told me that it was heavly based on population. After many a long night discussing such, the truth is known and the proof to back it up. All I have to say to this is, "I told you so Agharta!" http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/smile.gif Oh yeah...and thanks Andu, this is really some impressive stuff.

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<IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/ninja1.gif" border=0>"Engarde you silly fool!
You are no match for my so fine
rapier!"

He who sacrifices his conscience to ambition burns a picture to obtain the ashes.
- Chinese Proverb

drake
Mar 12, 2001, 02:39 PM
I'm actually playing a diplo game that helps support this theory (or is it a law?) right now. The leader in the PG is fourth in amount of cities, fifth in amount of units but first in overall population due to a well planned amount of republican we love days. I found this curious for the longest time, but this study helps explain everything for me. Thanks Andu!

Kev
Mar 12, 2001, 03:53 PM
Given that the power graph measures only population, tech and money, this says a great deal about people handing in bogus games for the hall of fame. A power graph that reaches the top in a single measurement pretty much has to be cheating does it not? There's no way to explain it via having a bunch of units.

Great stuff!!

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Diplomacy - the art of
saying "Good Doggie"
until you can find a rock

SlowwHand
Mar 12, 2001, 07:57 PM
It shows the graph is a joke. As I've said all along.
Pyramids is the biggest factor.

Corona10
Mar 12, 2001, 11:34 PM
I find this absolutely marvelous! I cannot help to think why it should take five years before anyone set forth on the task of analysing that graph empiric. Perhaps this can put the end to countless discussions based on rumours and speculation.
Two thumbs up to Andu, this is truly a Wonder!!!

vladmir_illych_lenin
Mar 13, 2001, 10:52 AM
Hmmm... I've also noticed that population is a great factor in the powergraph. Sometimes, say in the beginning when I only have 10 cities, I purchase 8 settlers, it means I "lose" population equivalent to 8 settlers, my powergraph spikes down.

PinkyGen
Mar 13, 2001, 10:34 PM
Andu, thank you for this discovery.

I actually like how the powergraph measures population and ignores units. This way, it shows potentiol power. A real life would be the U.S. pre WWI and pre WWII, an economic superpower with a small military. Yet this economic and population giant with no army in 1941 can build an army capable of defeating Germany and Japan in four years. (Yes, there was allied help. And the pre-war drafts and preperations were important, but did not overall expand the military to the point where it could fight.)

I know for my own personal Civ's I concentrate on money, tech, and production, and then quickly produce a large army should I need it for war.

Pedro
Mar 14, 2001, 07:03 AM
I know: this is the civ2 forum, but still the question: will this be the same in civ3.
I like PinkyGen's explanation of potential power, so I think it should remain this way.

Other question: when those in-game powerratings (happiest civs, most powerful civs) are shown. Do they use the same method of calculating the most powerful civilization?

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Andu Indorin
Mar 14, 2001, 01:07 PM
Well, in terms of potential power, wouldn't a measure of production capacity (i.e., total number of shields for civilizatoin) be a better indicator than either money and/or military units.

Speaking of which, it'd be really nice if the City Status window (F1) gave a total cumulative food/shield/trade production rates at the bottom so you can get the big picture of your civilization quick and easy; they already do it for the trade advisor.

Hueristic
Mar 19, 2001, 02:29 AM
Just wanted to thank you for the informative and (Compareing the graphs to the data)accurate interpretation. This was done with all the correct procedures for a scientific analysis. The results surely support the hypothesis. Exellent work!!! I'll never play power graph again.

SlowwHand
Mar 24, 2001, 07:50 AM
You guys can talk population and potential all you want.
If population meant jack, India would be a power in today's real world.
Build those big cities, I like taking them. http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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It's In The Way That You Use It

Tact
Mar 28, 2001, 01:22 PM
MOst helpful, duly noted

CoolUserName
Mar 28, 2001, 04:29 PM
When you press F3 and it says Sire, our power is _____ is it related to Power Graph?

Andu Indorin
Mar 28, 2001, 06:55 PM
CoolUser,

I think the Foreign Advisor (F3) is actually based on military power; I seem to recall in many of my earlier games, while I had the largest, richest, and most advanced civilization in the world, my Foreign Advisor constantly reminded my that my power was not "Supreme."

vladmir_illych_lenin
Mar 28, 2001, 07:16 PM
Yes, Andu is right. If you have the most units (settlers, diplomats caravans don't count), your "supreme". your might if second, etc.

Basically, population is the root of power in Civ. The more people you have, the more tiles you work on, the more trade production and food, which leads to more population. Even if you have the most concentrated and centralized civ, and the AI has a few scattered cities but larger population, they will still have an edge over you. Firaxis should somehow change that. India has over 4 times as many people as the states, but most of them are living in the streets or are factory workers. I think for every person in a city over 3 should generate 1 "poverty" or something.

SlowwHand
Mar 29, 2001, 12:17 AM
And the greater the potential for an army to sweep you away.
If you go by power graph, it's an illusion.
For any that swear by power graph, I want to play you. http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/cool.gif
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It's In The Way That You Use It



[This message has been edited by SlowwHand (edited March 29, 2001).]

Alcibiaties of Athenae
Mar 29, 2001, 02:55 PM
All you Air Force guys have your head in the clouds, Slowwhand. http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/tongue.gif

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Duke of Marlbrough
Jul 17, 2001, 07:23 PM
Since this is the thread pointed to from the War Academy, I am posting the further discussions on this topic here as well.

Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/Forum1/HTML/000481.html) is where it is discussed in further.

It seems to be concluded that the Power Rating uses the same formula as the Power Graph and that neither one takes military units into account.

starlifter
Jul 17, 2001, 09:27 PM
posted March 28, 2001 05:29 PM
When you press F3 and it says Sire, our power is _____ is it related to Power Graph?


My personal testing in Civ II MGE (5.4.0f, patch 3, 26 March 99) shows the two are related, and that neither ever count military units, unit value, military strength, etc. My own informal tests back up Andu's results that Gold, Advances, and Population determine the plot of the Power Graph.


by Duke of Marlbrough:

It seems to be concluded that the Power Rating uses the same formula as the Power Graph and that neither one takes military
units into account.


For what its "worth", I agree with your observation, Duke. At least I've never been able to show that adding units influences the PR or PG at all. http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/smile.gif