The file is: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/Bulgaria.zip

Civilization: Bulgaria
Noun: Bulgar
Adjective: Bulgarian
Colors: Dark Green
Starts with: Agriculture and Hunting
UU: Bulgarian Horseman (Horse Archer, 1+ moviment and 1+ power)


http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/5936/bulgaria011zq.jpg


Title and leader: Khan Boris I Michail
Leader bonuses: Expansive and Aggressive
Leader favourite civic: Hereditary Rule


Cities:
Pliska
Preslav
Ohrid
Turnovo
Sofija
TO BE CONTINUED...


http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/8954/bulgaria025ct.jpg


http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/4810/bulgaria039cu.jpg


http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/2396/bulgaria048ie.jpg


http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/9295/bulgaria053xz.jpg


http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/8199/bulgaria060tm.jpg

Adding one to both speed and power is a bit excessive concerning early balance.

Flawed city list I see..

Flawed city list I see..

tell me where the fails r, I can correct in the next version/Next Level Mod ;)

The UU is clearly overpowerd.

The city you included, "Ohrid," is an Albanian city "Oher" that was given to the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and is currently on the border of the present-day state of Albania and Macedonia.

Some say Macedonian is a dialect of Bulgarian, which reflects the origins of the slavic Macedonians, but that city clearly is not Bulgarian...

Adding one to both speed and power is a bit excessive concerning early balance.

I agree, it makes the Keshik look very weak.
Civarmy: Please compare to other civs when making UU stats, most of your units are overpowered.

By the way, nice work, I love your civilizations.

I love the way the leaderhead looks, it's very well done.
Balancing the UU isn't an easy thing to do, but when I finish polishing your first edition of The Next Level Mod I can get to work on balacing units like these.

I love the way the leaderhead looks, it's very well done.
Balancing the UU isn't an easy thing to do, but when I finish polishing your first edition of The Next Level Mod I can get to work on balacing units like these.


:thanx:

10 character :lol:

Nice artwork, CivArmy, but that's all you have for Bulgarian Civilization.
I don't feel the Bulgarian spirit playing with your mod. So much historical errors and inaccuracies.

The city you included, "Ohrid," is an Albanian city "Oher" that was given to the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and is currently on the border of the present-day state of Albania and Macedonia.

Some say Macedonian is a dialect of Bulgarian, which reflects the origins of the slavic Macedonians, but that city clearly is not Bulgarian...

Shqype, you're not right about Ohrid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohrid). Yes, it was not founded as Bulgarian city and yes, it's not Bulgarian now, but it was one of the greatest Bulgarian cities.

It was part of the Bulgarian Empire between 835-1371, (i.e. more than 500 years) as one of the three most important Bulgarian cities.

It was one of the two great Bulgarian literary schools together with Preslav and between 990 and 1015, Ohrid was even capital of the Bulgarian Empire and the seat of the Bulgarian Patriarchate.

To pretend that the former Bulgarian capital was never Bulgarian is just silly.

...and I didn't find any evidences that Ohrid was Albanian city.

Ohrid is a Macedonian(as in: city of Macedonian Slavs, not city of Macedonians Ancient) city.

I don't mention what city is Ohrid now. I meant that this city was great Bulgarian city over time and deserve to be in the list of Bulgarian Civilization cities. As you know, the Bulgarian Kingdom was founded more than 1300 years ago, not yesterday.

I was still a Slavic town.

Nice artwork, CivArmy, but that's all you have for Bulgarian Civilization.
I don't feel the Bulgarian spirit playing with your mod. So much historical errors and inaccuracies.


what do u suggest? :)

The city was founded during classical antiquity with the name Lychnidos. It was located along the Via Egnatia, which connected the Adriatic port Dyrrachion (today Durrës) with Byzantium. Archaeological excavations (e.g., the Polyconhous Basilica from 5th century) prove early adaption of Christianity in the area. Bishops from Lychnidos participated in multiple ecumenical councils.

The name Ohrid first appeared in 879. Between 990 and 1015, Ohrid was capital of the Bulgarian Empire. Above the city still remain the ruins of the stronghold of Czar Samuil. From 990 to 1018 Ohrid was the seat of the Bulgarian Patriarchate. The Byzantine conquest of the city in 1018, however, led to downgrading of the Patriarchate to an Archbishopric and to its placement under the authority of the Patriarch of Constantinople.

I was speaking about before those 25 years before it became the capital of the Bulgarian empire. The Bulgarians had an empire that covered a large portion of the Balkans (including Albania), but the cities it conquered were not necessarily Bulgarian.

Now, I do not debate the Slavic toponym... but under ancient times before it came under Bulgarian control it had another name. Even while it was under Bulgarian control and the name of the city changed, the indigenous population still remained there. Even today Albanians call the city Oher after the Slavic Ohrid... alot of Slavic words were transmitted to our language as a result of the occupation of the Bulgarian empire.

I dont think Ohrid was inhabited with Illyrian tribes that later became albanian. That was South-Vlach country before Slavs came.

The city you included, "Ohrid," is an Albanian city "Oher" that was given to the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and is currently on the border of the present-day state of Albania and Macedonia.

Shqype, I was comenting your ridiculous quote above. Ohrid was founded with the name Lychnidos in the ROMAN EMPIRE. Albania as a civilization exists for less than a hundred years and in this time period Ohrid was never "Albanian". However it was one of the greatest BULGARIAN cities for over 500 years.

Years ago, I was living in Albany, NY, probably "albanian" city "given" to the US and currently the capital of the present-day state of New York. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Shqype, I was comenting your ridiculous quote above. Ohrid was founded with the name Lychnidos in the ROMAN EMPIRE. Albania as a civilization exists for less than a hundred years and in this time period Ohrid was never "Albanian". However it was one of the greatest BULGARIAN cities for over 500 years.
That is completely false, the internationally recognized state of "Albania" came into existance at the beginning of the 20th century, yes, but the Albanian people (beginning with their Illyrian kingdoms in ancient times) are Europe's oldest surviving ethnic group.

Anima Croatorum, thanks for your fair and thoughtful debate. This is from wikipedia:

In 359 BC, King Perdiccas III of Macedonia was killed by attacking Illyrians. In 358 BC, however, Macedonia's Philip II, the father of Alexander the Great, defeated the Illyrians and assumed control of their territory as far as Lake Ohrid.
This implies that Liqeni i Ohrit (Lake Ohrid) was Illyrian territory before Philip II incorporated it into his kingdom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by svetg
Nice artwork, CivArmy, but that's all you have for Bulgarian Civilization.
I don't feel the Bulgarian spirit playing with your mod. So much historical errors and inaccuracies.


what do u suggest?


IMHO the creation of a new civilization based on existing one is not just to create the new leaderheads, but try to simulate the civilization that ACTS as the real historical civilization. To do this you should learn some history. Don't expect from others to fill your lack of historical knowledge.


I suggest you to take a look on my Bulgarian mod (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=141148) and read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bulgaria) article to get some idea of the Bulgarian civilization.

I can show you some of the crude mistakes only from your initial screenshot:

Noun: Bulgar

This is the name of one of the Bulgarian tribes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars) that founded Bulgaria. The Noun for the Bulgarian people is Bulgarian

Title and leader: Khan Boris I Michail

It's true that Boris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_I_of_Bulgaria)was initially a Khan of the Bulgarian Kingdom, but this "Khan Boris I Michail" is meaningless. He was the ruller that first adopted Christianity in Bulgaria and Michail became part of his name after his baptism in 864. At this time he was Knyaz (Prince) Boris. So either Khan Boris or Knyaz Boris I Michail is historically correct.

Leader bonuses: Expansive and Aggressive

Knyaz Boris I was everything, but "Expansive and Aggressive". His military campaigns were unsuccesful.

Leader favourite civic: Hereditary Rule

He was known to support "Organized religion". Don't forget, he brought Christianity to Bulgaria and baptized his people. He died as a monk later.

His portrait is not correct either. The background shows some gothic window with crosses and naked woman statue. I don't know about you, but I've never seen naked woman statue in the monastery. Where did you get this background from?

As a Khan Boris I was unsuccesful as I mentioned earlier and he become famous much later as a middle-aged man. So, he should be older in your picture too.

The crown he is wearing is not known to the bulgarian historians too. An he was not a chinese either..:lol:

I have a lot more to say, but I will not. Looking at your work i understand why you created so many "civilizations": Some generic face paired with some generic background, list of random civics and technologies, four cities, one sentence in the Civilopedia and you proudly pronounce a "New Civilization: [insert your name here]". Then you just can change the civilization and leader name with some, let's say Croation or Goth's leader name and keeping everything you can have a "New Civilization:???"
As everybody can see, you are just a factory of fake civilizations changing leaderheads and UU artwork only.

I don't know about others, but looking at this mod I can't trust you on other "civilizations" you have.

the internationally recognized state of "Albania" came into existance at the beginning of the 20th century, yes

Exactly my point. :)

the Albanian people (beginning with their Illyrian kingdoms in ancient times) are Europe's oldest surviving ethnic group.

Who told you that the Albanians and Illiryans are the same people?


Quote:
In 359 BC, King Perdiccas III of Macedonia was killed by attacking Illyrians. In 358 BC, however, Macedonia's Philip II, the father of Alexander the Great, defeated the Illyrians and assumed control of their territory as far as Lake Ohrid.
This implies that Liqeni i Ohrit (Lake Ohrid) was Illyrian territory before Philip II incorporated it into his kingdom.


Man, it's hard to argue with a fanatic. I never said that Ohrid was not for some time Illiryan or Roman or Macedonian or... whatever city. I just said that for 500 years it was one of the greatest Bulgarian cities and deserved to be on the list of Bulgarian Civilization cities.

About Skopje, here is it's official history and just read the first part.

http://www.skopjeonline.com.mk/culture/

What does your point prove? The time a present-day state was recognized by the international community and the start of a civilization are two completely different things. Your comments were utterly ignorant and disrespectful. The present-day internationally recognized Albanian state is roughly a century old but the Albanian civilization is over 3 milleniums old.

Our people don't call ourselves "Albanians" or "Illyrians." Both names for us actually came from the Greeks. We call ourselves something entirely different. Our civilization has remained in the same area for more than 3000 years (some say 5000 and others more). The Albanians still follow the traditions of their Illyrian ancestors, are still situated in land that during ancient times was the domain of the Illyrians, still speak an Illyrian language (although it was impregnated with many words, such as slavic from the Bulgarians, latin from the Romans and the Venetians, Greek, and Turkish from the Ottoman occupation), we still name our children Illyrian names, and our capital has been Shkodra from Illyrian times up until the 20th century.

Before the creation of the present day state, Albanian land was under the Ottoman empire for roughly 5 centuries. Including the Bulgarian occupation, since Illyrian times, my people have survived 33 invasions.

I understand that Ohrid was a city of the Bulgarian empire, even it's capital... but before the Bulgarians conquered it, what was it? And after the end of the large Bulgarian empire, what was it? And today, what is it?

Such a city is fine to include in a scenario of the might of the Bulgarian empire, because one cannot deny that it was the capital at one point, but to release it as a natural city of Bulgaria is misleading.

Who told you that the Albanians and Illiryans are the same people?

There are many evidences that i can mentoin but the strongest one is the language, it's simply too similar to our's.

About Skopje, here is it's official history and just read the first part.

http://www.skopjeonline.com.mk/culture/

Deo, who mentioned Skopje before? And I'm not reading any historical document placed in the .mk domain zone. For some reason the "history" listed in this domain is completely different from the rest of the world.

Deo, who mentioned Skopje before? And I'm not reading any historical document placed in the .mk domain zone. For some reason the "history" listed in this domain is completely different from the rest of the world.

Ops! Sorry:blush: I was reffering to another forum about some claming skopje was never albanian. I posted and thought i posted it in that forum, now i realize my error.

Anyway, Oher (Ohrid) was the capital of the enkelens (however they are called in english). They were the first Organized Illyrian tribe that later became part of illyria. I don't remember, i have to look in my history book but i think it was around 500 Bc.

That's not the issue now Deo, he is saying Ohrid was a major center of the Bulgarian empire, and for 25 years it was the Bulgarian capital.

Quote:
Originally Posted by svetg
Who told you that the Albanians and Illiryans are the same people?

There are many evidences that i can mentoin but the strongest one is the language, it's simply too similar to our's.

Deo, just read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_Albanians) so we can talk

The time a present-day state was recognized by the international community and the start of a civilization are two completely different things.

Shqype, you are not right. Every civilization starts when it's recognized by the international community. Until then it's just a bunch of tribes. For example the Bulgarian civilization was founded at 681 AD. Do you know why I know the exact date? Because at this date the Bulgarian Kingdom was officially recognized by the Byzantium Empire as independent kingdom. Until then it was just a bunch of Slavic, Bulgarian, Thracian, Dacian, Greek even Illyrian tribes.

the Albanian civilization is over 3 milleniums old.


The Gypsy people survived even longer, but they are not a civilization. Why? Because they were not organized enough to make their own state recognized by other countries.

Our people don't call ourselves "Albanians" or "Illyrians." Both names for us actually came from the Greeks. We call ourselves something entirely different.

I know, you're calling yourselves eagles, don't be shy :crazyeye:

Such a city is fine to include in a scenario of the might of the Bulgarian empire, because one cannot deny that it was the capital at one point

What I wanted to prove! Again, repeat after me: "Ohrid is not a Bulgarian city, but it WAS one of the greatest Bulgarian cities ever"
So it have it's place in 1300+ years (recognized by the international community) Bulgarian history

Your comments were utterly ignorant and disrespectful.

Which one? I don't want to be rude or ignorant. I'm posting facts only. If you don't like them, prove your point!

The Albanians still follow the traditions of their Illyrian ancestors, are still situated in land that during ancient times was the domain of the Illyrians, still speak an Illyrian language (although it was impregnated with many words, such as slavic from the Bulgarians, latin from the Romans and the Venetians, Greek, and Turkish from the Ottoman occupation), we still name our children Illyrian names, and our capital has been Shkodra from Illyrian times up until the 20th century.

What do you say about this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_Albanians).

I understand that Ohrid was a city of the Bulgarian empire, even it's capital... but before the Bulgarians conquered it, what was it? And after the end of the large Bulgarian empire, what was it? And today, what is it?

You can say this for every city in Europe survived more than 2000 years.
How about Athens by example. It's greek now, it was Ottoman's before, Byzantium before that, Roman....which city is this? Does this city deserve to be in the list of Greek civilization's cities?

Deo, just read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_Albanians) so we can talk

Look at my attached image.

Shqype, you are not right. Every civilization starts when it's recognized by the international community. Until then it's just a bunch of tribes. For example the Bulgarian civilization was founded at 681 AD. Do you know why I know the exact date? Because at this date the Bulgarian Kingdom was officially recognized by the Byzantium Empire as independent kingdom. Until then it was just a bunch of Slavic, Bulgarian, Thracian, Dacian, Greek even Illyrian tribes.


So, the egyptian civilization started when it was recognized by... Who? Same goes to Sumeria that are the first Civ etc. So you can't say albanians are a civ since 1912. You even can't realy say what makes a country a civ ( for example USA, is it a civ or not?, some say yes, some no etc.)

I know, you're calling yourselves eagles, don't be shy

I call albania, shqiperi, and shqiperi means LAND of the Eagles, not just eagles.
And we call ourselves, just like Americans call themeselves American and Germans call themselves German and you call us Albanian, but just in our language.

I have nothing to say to the other coments because i don't disaggre.

Athens is Greek because of its Greek origin, the Greek ethnicity of its people, and even today is still part of the Greek state with ethnically Greek inhabitants. Any entities that conquered Athens for a brief period of time have no claims to it (like saying that France is really German because Hitler conquered it and brought it under his empire; Germany has no legitimate claims to that French country).

Every civilization starts when it's recognized by the international community.
That is completely false.

Plus, as I said earlier, there were various Illyrian kingdoms, including the kingdom based in Shkodra with King Agron (and after his death, Queen Teuta) as the head of the empire. Albanian kingdoms again rose later, the kingdom of Arbnia, or Arberia (southern dialect). During Kastrioti's time we were called Arbnor (Arberesh)... even the southern Albanian troops that migrated to Italy and settled in Calabria still speak an archaic form of the Albanian language, and call themselves Arberesh, not "Shqyptar" as we call ourselves today, because the term Shqyptar came about after Kastrioti's rebellion.

As I stated before many of our kingdoms were destroyed by the 33 invasions we have survived since Illyrian times.

I stress again there is a huge difference between a civilization and an internationally recognized state of the present-day.

Shqype, Deo,

Don't forget, this is the "New Civilization: Bulgaria" thread. Don't start your albanian nationalism here. If you have something to say about this mod, say it. If not, practice your nationalism somewhere else.

btw, I would like to continue this discussion if you find a proper place. ;)

This is not about nationalism but facts. Civilization and present-day states are 2 completely different things, something which is very relevant.

I would like for CivArmy to post a complete city list when he gets the chance.

WOAH WOAH WOAH............... isnt Bulgaria a monarchy state?

Bulgaria is a republic, its just that the former King is PM.

About Illyrians and Albanians.

First, there was no unified Illyrian conciousness, they were dozens of tribes between the Alps and Thrace that had some mutual cultural similarities, but were also loosely related to Celts, Thracians and Macedonians.

Second, most of these tribes Romanised and Latinized fully, and by the time of the later centuries of Roman Empire held were fully integrated into Roman society.

Third, those that chose to live outside of Roman society, deep within the mountain ranges of todays Albania later became Albanian. To claim that Illyrian became Albanian would be incorrect. 5% tops of total Illyricum could be considered the forefathers of modern Albania. The few secluded tribes that did not Romanise.

In the time of late Empire and after the fall of Rome, incursions of Huns, Avars and arrival of the Slavs, Illyric name was long dead. Former Illyrians that survived the first two were not Albanian, but Romance. Dalmatians(assimilated by Croats in 11.ct.), North Vlach(future Romanians in Wallachia) and South Vlach(originally from Macedonia, and Bulgaria, later relocated by the Ottomans to western Bosnia and Croatia along the military border and finally assimilated into Serbs by Serb Orthodox Church).

Anima Croatorum, there were Illyrian kingdoms that rose under Bardhylli, Teuta, Genti, etc..

The Southern Illyrians averted assimilation, by not only Greeks and Romans, but by the invaders that shrunk their borders (slavs). The northern Illyrians were mostly assimilated as you say, but the ones that did remain eventually became known as the Albanians (after one of the Illyrian tribes in the heart of present-day Albania).

Our ancestors were part of a much larger group, but with time (and each armed invasion, 33 of them) their domain got smaller and smaller.

Now how about that Bulgarian city list?...

Shqype, Deo,

Don't forget, this is the "New Civilization: Bulgaria" thread. Don't start your albanian nationalism here. If you have something to say about this mod, say it. If not, practice your nationalism somewhere else.

btw, I would like to continue this discussion if you find a proper place. ;)

Ah so? Nationalistic:mischief:. That's not nationalism, that is a fact that connects us with the illyrians. Anyway, im not gonna debate anymore since there no point to debate.

About the Mod, the UU is still overpowerd.

Edit: You wan't nationalism, see Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=127064&highlight=bulgaria)
Go to the last few pages, that guy is insane.

What does your point prove? The time a present-day state was recognized by the international community and the start of a civilization are two completely different things. Your comments were utterly ignorant and disrespectful. The present-day internationally recognized Albanian state is roughly a century old but the Albanian civilization is over 3 milleniums old.

Our people don't call ourselves "Albanians" or "Illyrians." Both names for us actually came from the Greeks. We call ourselves something entirely different. Our civilization has remained in the same area for more than 3000 years (some say 5000 and others more). The Albanians still follow the traditions of their Illyrian ancestors, are still situated in land that during ancient times was the domain of the Illyrians, still speak an Illyrian language (although it was impregnated with many words, such as slavic from the Bulgarians, latin from the Romans and the Venetians, Greek, and Turkish from the Ottoman occupation), we still name our children Illyrian names, and our capital has been Shkodra from Illyrian times up until the 20th century.

Before the creation of the present day state, Albanian land was under the Ottoman empire for roughly 5 centuries. Including the Bulgarian occupation, since Illyrian times, my people have survived 33 invasions.

I understand that Ohrid was a city of the Bulgarian empire, even it's capital... but before the Bulgarians conquered it, what was it? And after the end of the large Bulgarian empire, what was it? And today, what is it?

Such a city is fine to include in a scenario of the might of the Bulgarian empire, because one cannot deny that it was the capital at one point, but to release it as a natural city of Bulgaria is misleading.
One thing,how can you have a civilization with no leades or a state?You "civilization" exist only for less than a century.:crazyeye:Was there ever a ancian or a medivial Albanian state?

@svetg Seems like some albanian here tends to write up his own little history. Even though you made things clear by proofs and real good explainations he does not want to accept reality. In another thread he denies the well-known fact that armenians were the first civilization to adopt christianity somewhat 300 AD. Now guess whose ancestors had also already adopted christianity by that time? Exactly ;)


Anyway, I am sad about the factory-like producing of new civs. They should be something unique and special..

One thing,how can you have a civilization with no leades or a state?You "civilization" exist only for less than a century.:crazyeye:Was there ever a ancian or a medivial Albanian state?

Why are you asking this anyway? Cause you think there wasnt an Albanian state in the middle ages?

And why the f*ck you needed to start this all over again?

Why are you asking this anyway? Cause you think there wasnt an Albanian state in the middle ages?

And why the f*ck you needed to start this all over again?
So was there a medieval albanian state?:rolleyes:

So was there a medieval albanian state?:rolleyes:

Go F*ck your self, i dont have time for this.

@svetg Seems like some albanian here tends to write up his own little history. Even though you made things clear by proofs and real good explainations he does not want to accept reality. In another thread he denies the well-known fact that armenians were the first civilization to adopt christianity somewhat 300 AD. Now guess whose ancestors had also already adopted christianity by that time? Exactly ;)


Anyway, I am sad about the factory-like producing of new civs. They should be something unique and special..

+1.

Anyway, as far as Ohrid is concerned, I always remember it as a Bulgarian city. I don't know who founded it, bur it is mentioned in Byzantine texts by that name. Other variations are of little importance since in the Balkans, every nation tends to name a city with its own name.

And the Illyrians are long dead, and it seems to be no apparent connection between them and the Albanians. It's like saying that Iraqis are of Babylonian origin. I don't mind searching the history but i dislike changing it to support a view that is clearly wrong.

... says a Greek. :rolleyes:

... says a Greek. :rolleyes:

What a nice ad hominem arguement!

Alas for the people who try to make up a history. Where there is none.

What a nice ad hominem arguement!

Alas for the people who try to make up a history. Where there is none.

But its says it all, you are completly biased because you're a Greek.

And why should we make up History? It has been proved thousands of times, but some people like you wont belive it and will never do, why? Well, you know why.

Anyway, why are you talking about our history? Do we talk about yours? No, so you want to come here and tell us where we came... yeah... :rolleyes:

But its says it all, you are completly biased because you're a Greek.

And why should we make up History? It has been proved thousands of times, but some people like you wont belive it and will never do, why? Well, you know why.

Anyway, why are you talking about our history? Do we talk about yours? No, so you want to come here and tell us where we came... yeah... :rolleyes:

In fact it says nothing. You have nothing to say against what i said, that's why you resort to ad hominem arguements.

And why am I biased? As I mentioned before, Ohrid is indeed a Bulgarian city and the Illyrians are long dead. Sad truth, but truth. That has nothing to do with me being greek or Greece in general. I have my own history, and i'm happy for it, and i just figured out i should contribute my knowledge in this subject.

As for the "It has been proved thousands of times", i dunno. Perhaps you are talking about albanian textbooks. Anyway, it's not my duty to trace your roots to the asian steppes, but the claim that you are descendants of the Illyrians, just because you happen to live were they used to, is really laughable. :rolleyes:

In fact it says nothing. You have nothing to say against what i said, that's why you resort to ad hominem arguements.

And why am I biased? As I mentioned before, Ohrid is indeed a Bulgarian city and the Illyrians are long dead. Sad truth, but truth. That has nothing to do with me being greek or Greece in general. I have my own history, and i'm happy for it, and i just figured out i should contribute my knowledge in this subject.

Oh it has, you hate Albanians much, so do we hate you much. I dont want to talk about Ohrid or whatever since it was indeed a Bulgarian city in the middle ages and Illyrians are not "dead", there is much you dont know. And if you are happy with you history, why do you talk about our history than?

As for the "It has been proved thousands of times", i dunno. Perhaps you are talking about albanian textbooks. Anyway, it's not my duty to trace your roots to the asian steppes, but the claim that you are descendants of the Illyrians, just because you happen to live were they used to, is really laughable. :rolleyes:

How'd you come up with that? We are not tied with Illyrians just because we live here.

But anyway, prove it, prove that we are not tied with them than.

I can but Im to lazy to do it cause it takes too much of my time but I suggest you to read this:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=160593&page=9

or this:

http://p083.ezboard.com/fbalkansillyriaforum.showMessage?topicID=610.topic

Oh it has, you hate Albanians much, so do we hate you much. I dont want to talk about Ohrid or whatever since it was indeed a Bulgarian city in the middle ages and Illyrians are not "dead", there is much you dont know. And if you are happy with you history, why do you talk about our history than?


Funny thing, i don't hate you (as you might do), but reading your arguements i'm inclined to pity you. As far as the things "i don't know", yes, you 're right, i'm not fully aware of the albanian propaganda.

And mind you, i haven't open this discussion, i just made clear that i agree with a particular comment.

How'd you come up with that? We are not tied with Illyrians just because we live here.


As I've told you, it is not my duty to trace your roots. For me, it's plain and simple: there is no tangible evidence that Albanians are related to Illyrians, just wild guesses. Even the language link is heavily disputed.

Have a look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_language).
A hypothesis that the modern Albanian language is a surviving Illyrian language remains very controversial among linguists. The identification of Illyrian as a centum language is widely but not unanimously accepted, although it is generally admitted that from what remains of the language, centum examples appear to greatly outnumber satem examples. One of the few satem examples in Illyrian appears to be Osseriates, probably from PIE *eghero-, "lake". Only a few Illyrian items have been linked to Albanian, and these remain tentative or inconclusive for the purpose of determining a close relation.

So, we get to the point where no religious, language, traditional or historical ties can be established, yet we take for granted what we want to prove.


But anyway, prove it, prove that we are not tied with them than.


Yes, that's another arguement!
It's called burden of proof.

Excuse me, but shouldn't this be in the World History forum? Anyway, I am not Greek or Albanian, I am Armenian, so I do not have any bias. Now in the link that deo posted for you to read, Shqype overwhelmingly proves that Albanians are connected with Illyrians, and I also make a short entrance. Please read it before moving on aljawn.

Have a look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_language).


So, we get to the point where no religious, language, traditional or historical ties can be established, yet we take for granted what we want to prove.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Where did you get that from? Wikipedia... :lol:

As Drtad said, read the links I posted first.

Anyway, i have to point out that there is no udisputable evidence of the Albanian people, before the 11th century. (One can have a look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_Albanians), but yet again here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania)). For a nation that claims to be as ancient as the Illyrians, it's realy weird.

One might guess two things. Either the "Albanians" lived in a total seclusion (hard to believe given that the Balkans were in turmoil from the beginning of mankind) or they came from somewhere else.

There is genetical (http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p1155.pdf) evidence that the seclusion is a myth. Not to mention the migratory history of Albanians during the Ottoman times or even the conversion to Islam (hard to believe that they got out of the closet by the time the Turks arrived).

:lol: :lol: :lol:

As far as the language is concerned, this is a nice thread (http://p083.ezboard.com/fbalkansillyriaforum.showMessageRange?topicID=370. topic&start=1&stop=20) (before the albanian nationalism takes over).

Anyway, i would like to point out one more thing. Albanian propaganda is clearly trying to take over the local history, by using the name of an ethnic group that doesn't exist anymore. The same thing applied to Kossovo, which is known here as the arc of the Serbian civilization. Sorry, i can't play their tricks.

Whenever I look at a map that shows different ethnicities, it always shows that Kosovo is not populated by a Slavic people. But I really wouldn't know.
I still think Shqype's explanation is good enough and wikipedia articles are not going to cut it. There should be no reason to be angry at one another, its just two different points of view about the origin of Albanians. No need to use words like hate or anything. Just because the Turks nearly wiped out my people and now they are paying the US and other countries to say that the Armenian Genocide did not happen, does not mean that I should hate every Turk no matter what. See what I mean?

Well Drtad, I didnt mean exactly every Greek or something like that, i meant the nations, Albania and Greece dont have good relations and Propaganda is everywhere, in both countries and both people see the reality with different eyes. I personaly dont hate the Greeks, never had any problem with them but well, its an Instinct to defend you people you know ;). But im not going to debate here anymore since this is a mod about Bulgaria anyway.

Oh and, sometimes this thread explains it all:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=186457&highlight=internet

Good call Deo!

aljawn, you're so cute :spank:

By the way guys, Bulgarian girls are kinda cute ;)

Good call Deo!

aljawn, you're so cute :spank:

By the way guys, Bulgarian girls are kinda cute ;)
Yes they are a lot beter than albanian.

If anyone thinks that the city shouldn't be on the Bulgarian list, consider the fact that Paris was not founded by the French, yet is on the French list. New York was not founded by the Americans, yet is on the American list, and London was not founded by the English, yet is on the English list.

Yes they are a lot beter than albanian.
Definitely not, Bulgarian females cannot compare to their Albanian superiors ;)

If anyone thinks that the city shouldn't be on the Bulgarian list, consider the fact that Paris was not founded by the French, yet is on the French list. New York was not founded by the Americans, yet is on the American list, and London was not founded by the English, yet is on the English list.
And your argument does not provide a panacea solution; because New York, for example, is still not inhabited by majority Dutch.

Definitely not, Bulgarian females cannot compare to their Albanian superiors ;)
Dont make me laught:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You can "laught" as much as you want, you vulgar bulgar :lol:

You can "laught" as much as you want, you vulgar bulgar :lol:
Sory man but the last time i went to your country your girls scared the hell outh of me!;) Im bulgarian thats true but if you come in Bulgaria you will agree that your girls cant even compare to ours!I was in Tirana 2 years ago i so i know what im talking about,have you been to Bulgaria how many bulgarians have you seen?:lol:

So you saw a few girls and based your views just on that? What do you expect from Europe's poorest country?

Compare Albanian girls in America with Bulgarian girls in America and you'll find that the former excel in beauty and elegance.

So you saw a few girls and based your views just on that? What do you expect from Europe's poorest country?

Compare Albanian girls in America with Bulgarian girls in America and you'll find that the former excel in beauty and elegance.
Hmm i cant get it?:confused: What do money have to do whith the women's looks.Bulgaria is not rich also but just walk dow a streets in a bulgarian city and you will see a lot of good looking girls.Sure they will not wear fancy clothers but they will look good anyway.Ask whoever you want bulgarians are the moust beautifull from all slav girs (and that means from all the uropeens).

And still miss Albania finished IIRC nr 4 in Miss Universe 2006 ;)

Hmm i cant get it?:confused: What do money have to do whith the women's looks.Bulgaria is not rich also but just walk dow a streets in a bulgarian city and you will see a lot of good looking girls.Sure they will not wear fancy clothers but they will look good anyway.Ask whoever you want bulgarians are the moust beautifull from all slav girs (and that means from all the uropeens).


:lol: :lol: :rotfl:

Well if thats your view point then I am any one and I would dissagree with you both. Romanian women are the most beautiful women on the planet:mischief: with or without money. :lol: Anyway this is alil [offtopic]

Hmm i cant get it?:confused: What do money have to do whith the women's looks.Bulgaria is not rich also but just walk dow a streets in a bulgarian city and you will see a lot of good looking girls.Sure they will not wear fancy clothers but they will look good anyway.Ask whoever you want bulgarians are the moust beautifull from all slav girs (and that means from all the uropeens).
I'm sure Bulgarian girls in America will look better than Bulgarian girls in Bulgaria because in America people generally tend to pay more attention to personal hygiene and things that are associated with beauty. Because Bulgaria is in a better situation than Albania proper something similar may be true.

Here is Agnese Vuthaj, Miss Albania 2004:
http://media.santabanta.com/gal/mw2004/beauties/albania1.jpg http://media.santabanta.com/gal/mw2004/contestants/albania1.jpg http://media.santabanta.com/gal/mw2004/beach/albania1.jpg

Now, I believe beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You may feel Bulgarians are more beautiful partly because of nationalism, and because that's what you've been exposed to and what your culture has taught you to be beautiful. Same thing with me and my Albanians. But then again Albanians have others that have admired their beauty, as you can see from this 1911 article in the New York Times:

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/7002/albaniansfinestraceid9.jpg

The Bulgarians may be amongst the most beautiful Slavs of Europe, but the Albanians are the most beautiful people of Europe ;)

The Bulgarians may be amongst the most beautiful Slavs of Europe, but the Albanians are the most beautiful people of Europe

So this makes Armenian girls the most beautiful in the world.:lol:

My compliments, Civarmy! great mods!! Well done, indeed.

Oh, by the way....the girls are beautiful! hehé...if they are in the mode as a special units i guess there is no way to stop the Bulgarian empire from dominating the world ;)

How about this UU-
Hayduk (replaces musketman)
Strength-9, Movement-1
Starts with Woodsman I and Guerilla I

Hi everyone. I live in USA, but I am Bulgarian so I can proficiently argue with everyone Anyway, if you are looking for a scenario that includes Bulgaria, then here is one:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=295451

This is just for download. For discussions, check the treads on the sub-forum:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=330

Note that this is Medieval mod only, so no Haiduci or Partizani or even Ognen Val.

To make Bulgaria complete, however, we need Bulgarian speech, better leaderhead for Simeon (Cyrus is not a very good one) and possibly improve the Konnik graphics, (i.e. too much red, we should make it into a chain-mail or something). Some appropriate song for Simeon is good as well.

Кратък превод: Правим мод за средновековна Европа и България е включена (естествено). Можете да си дръпнете алфата от първия линк и да подавате коментари на втория (много хора участваме и само аз съм Българин, така че коментарите трябва да са на Английски). Също така ни трябва по-добра графика за главата на Цар Симеон, Българска реч от войниците, музика и ако може да поправим графиката на конницата.