View Full Version : West Point


Epos
Jan 10, 2006, 02:53 AM
I know this maybe a n00b question but before I start reinstalling etc.: Using the civics: Vassalage means that new units receive +2 experience points. I got to “promote” the units 2 times. When I build West Point new units receive +4 experience points, but i dont get to ”promote” them 4 times? Is this correct or do I have a bug or something.

Lord Foortwenti
Jan 10, 2006, 03:20 AM
Yes, with Westpoint you get +4 xp points upon creation of a unit. However 4xp points =! 4 lvls (or promotions). There are multiple experience points needed to gain the 3+ promotions

COUGAR69
Jan 10, 2006, 03:44 AM
You have to have a certain number of exp.points to go up to the next lvl.Like 2,5,10,20.Per lvl.

PC-Pete
Jan 10, 2006, 04:38 AM
I have a question that is somewhat related to the West Point.

To be able to build it you need a level 5 unit. I always play games with barbarians to get some units some experience points. But when ever they reach level 4 and get 10 experience points they stop advancing. Next step is 17 experience points and after that it is 24 I think.

Ever since I've learned to create horse units I've used one or two of them to do all my barbarian attacks and also to monitor my borders. I've looked at the experience and it is at 10/17. I attack, win and it is still at 10/17. I've done this 2-3 times with the same unit and it don't jump past 10/17. I've read the manual and it states that a unit get experience attacking, but also by defending.

So is this a bug or are they gaining experience, but it isn't updated on their 'infocard'?

Sorry if I hijacked the thread. Figured I ask in here, rather then starting a new thread.

White Elk
Jan 10, 2006, 04:43 AM
Experiance points are cumulative. You earn a promotion once you've accumulated the required number of exp points. Six exp points are enough for two promotions. Ten exp are required for three promotions.

2 exp = promotion one
5 exp = promotion two
10 exp = promotion three
17 exp = promotion four
26 exp = promotion five
37 exp = promotion six
?? exp = promotion seven
etc..

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/7783/exp3lu.jpg
He needs just six more exp for a sixth promotion.

White Elk
Jan 10, 2006, 04:49 AM
@ PC-Pete ~ You can only earn 10 exp from fighting barbarians.
And I think you can only earn 7 exp from barbarian animals.

Oho
Jan 10, 2006, 04:51 AM
Ever since I've learned to create horse units I've used one or two of them to do all my barbarian attacks and also to monitor my borders. I've looked at the experience and it is at 10/17. I attack, win and it is still at 10/17. I've done this 2-3 times with the same unit and it don't jump past 10/17. I've read the manual and it states that a unit get experience attacking, but also by defending.


Barbarian gained experience is capped at 10 you need to war with other Civs to exceed 10 points of exp.

salty
Jan 10, 2006, 08:18 AM
promotion 7 (=lvl 8) needs 50, to get level 9, add the next odd number which is 15, so lvl 9 is 65, lvl 10 is 82 (65 + 17), lvl 11 is 101 (83 + 19), etc

I think exp from animals is capped at 5

and Count Chocula will destroy you all.

CVDon
Jan 10, 2006, 09:13 AM
GOOD LORD!!!! I thought I was a warmonger. I did not know you could get a unit to that level. You make me look like a pacifist.

IronBrigade
Jan 10, 2006, 09:33 AM
is count cho-ko-nu for sale? i need to put the fear of god into kublai khan. he'd make a nice avatar too. have you put him up on ebay yet?

djenghis
Jan 10, 2006, 12:59 PM
To Salty: How on earth did you manage to get a so experienced unit??

By the time my units reach 20xp, i can no longer use them as the enemy has newer units with higher strenght so that i have to upgrade my unit. It then drops to xp 10 again. Are you able to win with this strenght=6 unit against e.g. an infantry??

djenghis
Jan 10, 2006, 01:02 PM
A also always build west point and red cross in the same city. Then with barracks and vassalage and theocracy and pentagon they start with 14xp and medic I. Are there other tricks to improve the military?

Rane Khan
Jan 10, 2006, 01:40 PM
Wow! That is one experienced unit. =S

Marathon game?

Palomino
Jan 10, 2006, 01:59 PM
I disagree on the Red Cross/West Point combo.

I always build Heroic Epic in a coastal production city so I can build naval units faster and then build West Point in that city so it can produce upgraded military including navy 100% faster.

DrewBledsoe
Jan 10, 2006, 02:16 PM
That unit smells like world builder...if it isn't I apologise

Bushface
Jan 10, 2006, 02:24 PM
Heroic Epic plus West Point in same city, yes, by all means. But not necessarily coastal; depends on what kind of map you have. I like to use a city fairly close to a land border so that when war starts the new units can get into combat quickly.
Adding in the Pentagon effect and suitable Civics also, very obviously, helps.

Xenocrates
Jan 10, 2006, 02:31 PM
You could probably have 40 units (haven't counted too be honest, but a lot anyway) for the hammer cost of these wonders....

I used to build them but on higher levels I can never make the time.

Innawerkz
Jan 10, 2006, 02:36 PM
I always build Heroic Epic in a coastal production city so I can build naval units faster and then build West Point in that city so it can produce upgraded military including navy 100% faster.

Ditto. If there is any need for navy, this is a great combination. With Dry Docks in the city, you and you're fully loaded transports with extra movement & heavily armed escorts are laughing all the way to the enemy coastlines.

I reserve Red Cross for a different city. Not usually necessary to have dozens of Medics. I just sprinkle them into my different assault teams.

PC-Pete
Jan 10, 2006, 03:41 PM
Thanks for the info on the xp cap at 10 for fighting barbarians. I am not a warmongering player. I always defend, but if some civ attack I tend to retaliate if I feel I need to expand and there are no other land to work on. I also tend to try and coax other civs to fight for me. However I have yet to find a way to ask another civ to help me fight an enemy. They are able to ask for help though.

joelzhl
Jan 10, 2006, 04:13 PM
I won't be surprised if that Cho-ko-nu is actually from a legit game. Drill IV Cho has 5-8 first strikes. Even if both units have an equal modified strength, Drill IV Cho will win most of the time. I believe if the odds are even, Drill IV Cho will wins 97% of the time. The exp you get from each combat depends on the final modified strength of the combat, and first strike isn't taken into account. If the odd is even, Cho attacker will likely get around 3 exp per battle. Furthermore, first strike Cho has a higher chance coming out of combat healthier, thus they can do more combat then other troops. Combining all these factors and you'll find that Cho-ko-nu is the best unit to make elite units out of.

salty
Jan 10, 2006, 04:35 PM
Yes, that's right. I use to think Cho-ko-nus were kind of crappy and only used them on defense, but now I know crossbows are offensive units.

Count Chocula is from a Prince, epic, huge, raging barbarians, 11 player, custom climate, salty mod version 0.3 map, and NO TECH TRADING.

> To Salty: How on earth did you manage to get a so experienced unit??

Near continuous war with Japan, France, Aztec and now Incas. Can't guarantee that never reloaded a combat for that particular guy, but I don't think I did.

> strenght=6 unit against e.g. an infantry

That's just crazy. Maybe if the infantry only had half a hit point left. I was going to upgrade him to grenadier (only str12 but 50% vs. rifles) around level 9 but didn't. Level 11 might be the max for him ... he needs 10 turns to get to the next war zone, which is already being overrun by my cavalry (war weariness is getting serious). In the mean time, the remain Civs have gotten riflemen.

> That unit smells like world builder...if it isn't I apologise

World builder was not used to modify the unit in any way.

White Elk
Jan 10, 2006, 04:44 PM
For some games I choose the Heroic Epic, West Point combo in a high production city. Other games I've choosen to build Ironworks and West Point. If I have a good production coastal city I generally build the combo there. I have never even built the Red Cross yet and I don't think I'd build it in my West Point city. I favor a high production of well trained units over a lower production of well trained medics. I grant the Medic1 promotion as needed.

Oggums
Jan 10, 2006, 05:49 PM
Red Cross always comes too late in my games to put it in with West Point.

My one-turn, heroic/west point tanks either raze the world by then, or someone builds the space ship.

Seven05
Jan 10, 2006, 06:13 PM
The nice part about the Red Cross is that it puts you one promotion from March which can be a very handy promotion to have. Even better is playing as an aggressive civ for the free Combat I on many land units. Even though March is nice I've only had one game where West Point & Red Cross ended up in the same city and that was because I didn't have any room left for national wonders anywhere else (piss poor planning). It was kind of cool to make Marines with the March promotion but the novelty of it wore off with the advent of Mech. Infantry.

So far my ideal warmongering city is Ironworks/Heroic Epic and West Point, barracks/drydock and the Pentagon somewhere else with my Civics set to Vassalage and Theocracy. New units start with 10xp and work well enough for my needs :)

The 5 & 10xp cap from barbarians and animals is easily removed as is the 10xp reset from upgrades. Both changes can be made with XML only and I'm pretty sure they're both in the gamedefines xml file but I can't check to confirm that right now. If you remove them or increase them too high you get too many promotions and the AI doesn't take advantage of it like a human player will. So it might be cool for a MP mod but I wouldn't use it for SP games.

warpstorm
Jan 10, 2006, 07:16 PM
Salty, he's not a 6, he's got a +50% strength. If he upgrades, he keeps that.

Shqype
Jan 10, 2006, 07:52 PM
Salty, you said you're using your salty mod.... probably you in some way altered the amount of experience gained in combat?

I know that Kael's Fall from Heaven mod altered those values allowing for more experience ... in that game I've seen my brother reach almost 101 exp. points. Probably you did something similar?

salty
Jan 10, 2006, 08:12 PM
Salty, he's not a 6, he's got a +50% strength. If he upgrades, he keeps that.

Yes, but I usually just look at the base value. +50% turns out to be only +20% when you are fighting agressive Civs with barracks and a +2 civic. The highest full health unit I'd think about using a Cho-ko-nu that I want to protect to attack would be a musket. If upgrading to grendier I would take on full strength rifles, but I didn't want to get dropped down to 10 exp pts yet.

jonoerator
Jan 10, 2006, 08:17 PM
Haha, gosh, Count Chocula is insane... I bet he could kill a few infantry and tanks in the modern era :lol:

salty
Jan 10, 2006, 08:24 PM
Salty, you said you're using your salty mod.... probably you in some way altered the amount of experience gained in combat?

I know that Kael's Fall from Heaven mod altered those values allowing for more experience ... in that game I've seen my brother reach almost 101 exp. points. Probably you did something similar?

You know, I thought something weird might be going on when I clobbered a maceman for 5 pts and maybe a catapult, too. But all the mod should have in it are the old civ3 and all the changes from 1.52. The only standard units I modified is the camel archer, and I just gave that a new class. the i iXPValueAttack, and iXPValueDefense values for everything should be the same. They "should" be the same. I edited everything on a windoze computer, with notepad, which is hardly my tool of choice. They are the same for Maceman and catapult at least.

Mod is here if anyone wants to try it
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=149683

salty
Jan 10, 2006, 08:54 PM
I wonder if the computer counts each first strike as a seperate combat, making it possible to get more than iXPValueAttack points per attack.

ZippyRiver
Jan 11, 2006, 08:53 AM
I don't use any mods and have gotten 5exp from combat. Those big underdog wins get paid off nicely.

Couple of games ago I had a chariot I was trying to get impressive. I would only attack red damaged units. I would only get 1 exp point per battle, but thats ok. I finally lost it to a counter-offensive after taking a city. A stoopid cav unit ate it up. It had around 70 exp points. (this was pre-1.52).

Now, not sure you can get a unit that high with the combat damage changes.

Zombie69
Jan 11, 2006, 10:16 AM
This Cho-ko-nu is probably from before the latest patch. Before then, i don't think first strikes were taken into account in combat odds. As a result, with lower strength and/or health, but lots of first strikes, you could have a higher than 50% chance of winning but still get upwards to 10 XP for a single battle. I got an archer up to 36 XP in no time because of this without even trying.

syn
Jan 11, 2006, 09:51 PM
if you don't believe salty then what do you say about this guy ;)

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6955/vet3pc.jpg

Thalassicus
Jan 12, 2006, 12:13 AM
This guy was much easier to reach. Cossacks can get Blitz for 2 attacks per turn, I managed to get 5 other Cossacks around level 8 this game:

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/3043/uberunit4cp.jpg

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/4213/uberunit24wh.jpg

I sometimes put West Point in my Heroic Epic city, but normally pair it with the Ironworks in my most productive city for mid to late-game (Heroic Epic goes in most productive city early-game). I then put the Red Cross in the Epic city.

Ogrelord
Jan 12, 2006, 02:01 AM
pfftttt... those are all Unique Units. Let's see a Spearman with 8 promotions :p

salty
Jan 12, 2006, 08:54 PM
if you don't believe salty then what do you say about this guy ;)

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6955/vet3pc.jpg

Wow, Count Chocula is going to have to look out for this guy.

djenghis
Jan 17, 2006, 10:05 AM
if you don't believe salty then what do you say about this guy ;)

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6955/vet3pc.jpg

Can i assume this was done on a huge map? I play on standard map(huge is to much for my pc) and i just can't wage so much war to get such a high xp soldier.