So what, if anything, do you do when you find an island like this?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/fishingvillage.gif

Of course, as the island is surrounded by ocean, you are only getting there post Astronomy.

USE IT. One fishing resource would have been enough, let alone two. I use those tiny islands as pure commerce cities for science (I basically buy all the science buildings as fast as I can since the abysmal production would take them forever to build otherwise). They will be able to grow to a very good size. Defending those island cities gets much easier once you can airlift units in with airports.

That's easy. Build on the white tundra. Build a lighthouse. Reap commerce. (This is all assuming your economy can support another city.)

If you don't have that resource yet, it's a no-brainer to settle it. Even if you do have the resource, you still have a couple of interesting options for that city -

1) Pure commerce city. With a granary and a lighthouse, the city will grow very fast. If you are financial, you will get a lot of commerce. If not financial, so-so.

2) Great person city. If my math is right, you can run that city with 5 specialists (+4 food for each fish and +2 from the city). While it won't really compete with your main great person city, if you settle that spot reasonably early, it will generate 2 to 3 great people. This option is much harder if you aren't running caste system, since you'll have to build the buildings to get the specialists.

Here's a game where I deliberately sought out spots like this in order to generate great people:

http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/game_info.php?entryID=367

In that game, that was my only option (due to map options).

I agree that you should settle it, but only assuming there is no unsettled contiguous land and you're financially stable enough to invest in growth, since it will take some turns in the red before this pays for itself. The reason not to have marginal cities is that their civics cost you, but with an island surrounded by coast and a food resource to help it grow fast, it will quickly generate excess cash and take care of that problem. One problem is that you'll have very little production to go toward the lighthouse and work boats you need ASAP (and the granary and courthouse you need after those). So without any intervention it will be interminably slow to become functional. You might consider a little slavery to get the ball rolling. Or investing a little cash up front with universal sufferage. Once you get the work boats and/or light house and have spare population from the fish, you can use some of your population as production specialists.

I agree that you should settle it, but only assuming there is no unsettled contiguous land and you're financially stable enough to invest in growth, since it will take some turns in the red before this pays for itself. The reason not to have marginal cities is that their civics cost you, but with an island surrounded by coast and a food resource to help it grow fast, it will quickly generate excess cash and take care of that problem. One problem is that you'll have very little production to go toward the lighthouse and work boats you need ASAP (and the granary and courthouse you need after those). So without any intervention it will be interminably slow to become functional. You might consider a little slavery to get the ball rolling. Or investing a little cash up front with universal sufferage. Once you get the work boats and/or light house and have spare population from the fish, you can use some of your population as production specialists.

The Lighthouse being the most important of those :p

The Lighthouse being the most important of those :p
Agreed. If you are going to rush them (money or slavery), you should go Granary then Lighthouse. If you aren't going to rush, go Lighthouse first. By the time it is built, the granary may not matter.

If the island is anywhere close to your empire you should settle it. Better yet if it's close enough to your mainland to send over fishing boats. These little islands are real killers as commerce cities, especially if you are Financial. Just make sure to have the Slavery civic availible to pop-rush a lighthouse/granery and a few commerce/science improvements.

The Lighthouse being the most important of those.

No, actually, I disagree. Not in this highly specific situation. Usually the light house is the first thing you build on a coastal city. But on an isolated island like this, I'd go with work boats first. The work boats are 30 hammers each, and the lighthouse is 60 (scaled by game speed), with only 1 hammer produced from your city to start. Starting at population 1, you're working your city and one extra tile, and only producing one hammer. Upgrading fish with a work boat adds +3 food to the tile. So comparing both work boats to the light house, the city would have to grow to size 7 before the advantage of the light house was greater than the advantage of the work boats. But more importantly, with the food spread out across coastal tiles you have to spend each population on another coastal tile to maintain growth, but with the food concentrated into two high value tiles, you can afford to work those tiles and put surplus population into hammer producing specialists, which will make it so you can build the light house in just a small fraction of the time it would take to build at 1 hammer. Plus you first reap the benefits of the work boat at turn 30, so you may actually build the second in half the time. Once you've built the important growth buildings you can get rid of your production specialists and put them onto coastal tiles for super fast growth.

If you are taking advantage of slavery to rush something (and thus dealing with a lower population after), then the concentration of food into those 2 tiles from work boats is just that much more important compared to a lighthouse. A granary is nice, but even with slavery it will take much longer for it to become beneficial than either work boats or a light house (both of them will increase food production by more than granary speeds growth), you should build it after either. And if you're going to rush something with money, it just makes work boats that much better, because your population will be so small to start that the benefits to those two tiles make a huge impact.

Better yet if it's close enough to your mainland to send over fishing boats.

He specified that it is across ocean, so it is not close enough.

Don't forget that you can trade the extra fish for another resource, or gold per turn. I have never yet seen an AI civ turn down a trade where you give them any resource and in return they give you the maximum amount of gold per turn that they can give.

Make sure to use slavery to the max to get infra up quickly. Workboats first, then granary, then lighthouse, then forge (for the engineer specialist), then to taste...

Errata, enough with the math already :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yeah Errata is right. Damn :p


Well I'd plop down a settler smack down on the middle of that island. But that's me, I like islands. :crazyeye:

I'd go for workboats first, definately. Most people seem to overlook the benefits of the sea.

There are four things that hold back progress. Ignorance, stupidity, committees and accountants.

I guess you're right about Work Boats being more important in this situation. I have an aversion to building Work Boats first in new cities, but now I see that in certain situations it is the best choice. On a larger land-mass, I always feel the turns of production are being wasted since a Work Boat improves only one tile while Workers improve many (health bonuses aside.) But I guess if there's no land to improve, the food boost from a Work Boat would be most important. Your point about slavery is also a good one. The large food boost from the fish, combined with slavery, will get this city "online" faster than anything, I'd wager.

One thing to keep in mind about those one city islands:

If you get war declared on you by an AI, that is one of the cities they will probably attack first. In Civ III, I used to grab those tiny islands all the time. In Civ IV though (and maybe others could tell me if they have the same experiences) any time I have a small island like that, it gets attacked at some point. Militarily it makes sense: it's a fully developed city that is normally quite far from reinforcements. So my advice is if you do build a city there, VoiceOfUnreason, just makes sure to have it protected well, because it my experience with the AI, they like to attack those types of cities.

Anyone else had that same problem? Or does the AI just hate me?? :blush:

I would send two work boats from other cities and start on a lighthouse, then whip it out with slavery. Then I'd crack the whip on a market and give it some merchants, then a library and give it 2 scientists. Then I'd forget about it.

Oggums, you can't send 2 work boats from another city across ocean tiles. Work boats are limited to coast.

Toshiro, I develop island cities. But I've never had them invaded. My non-border cities usually have one up to date defender each. And the island city is not as valuable as most, so that means most of my other cities are equally well defended but more valuable, and they go towards those. When someone declares war on me I try to use my navy proactively to avoid invasion by sea, so its generally not a problem anyway. Nothing is more fun than killing a stack of transports with dozens of troops.

How far is this island from your capital? Maintenance costs can outweight your potential gains from founding a far-flung city. You wouldnt want to build the Forbidden Palace here just to make this turn a profit.

Lawlessone, the thing about island cities like this is that every tile they work is going to be a commerce tile, they'll have good trade routes, and they'll naturally keep growing in population until they're working nearly everything in their fat cross. So once you have the light house up it doesn't take long for them to become profitable, even with expensive civics in a far flung location. Their only downside is that their production is negligible, but they benefit your productive cities by injecting extra cash and research.

The commerce thing is of course more pronounced if you're a Finanical leader, but these cities still wont lose you money for long even if you're not.

Their only downside is that their production is negligible, but they benefit your productive cities by injecting extra cash and research.

And production isn't even a problem either if you have a granary and slavery.

1. Is it possible to build city on the snow surface?
2. If a friend land on the island, and suddenly war broke, will they magically teleported of the island?
3. Is it possible to send workboat crossing ocean, to allow more mature costal city provide the work boat (I though work boat caught whale in ocean)?

Lawlessone, the thing about island cities like this is that every tile they work is going to be a commerce tile, they'll have good trade routes, and they'll naturally keep growing in population until they're working nearly everything in their fat cross. So once you have the light house up it doesn't take long for them to become profitable, even with expensive civics in a far flung location. Their only downside is that their production is negligible, but they benefit your productive cities by injecting extra cash and research.

The commerce thing is of course more pronounced if you're a Finanical leader, but these cities still wont lose you money for long even if you're not.

Not necessarily. Look at it this way, you can have a max of 20 tiles. Without being finiacial that is 40 commerce. At a research rate of 90% that is 4 gold. Maintenance costs can easily exceed that figure even with a courthouse cutting it in half.

I realize that is a 'worst case'. I just think you need to consider the distance from your Capital when you consider if this is a good place for a city.

Considering the gold produced is irrelevant. You need to compare the commerce produced to the cost of the city. Maybe you'll have to go to 80% some of the time, but it'll be 80% of a bigger number. As long as the commerce the city produces is more than its cost, you come out ahead - regardless of what your science rate is.

The true income of the city is the 40, not the 4.

LawLessOne: Not necessarily. Look at it this way, you can have a max of 20 tiles. Without being finiacial that is 40 commerce. At a research rate of 90% that is 4 gold. Maintenance costs can easily exceed that figure even with a courthouse cutting it in half.


If a civ is running 90% science, post-Astronomy, then the extra maintenance in this city won't likely hurt the economy too much. I think the science boost is more than worth it in most cases.

ekanata: 3. Is it possible to send workboat crossing ocean, to allow more mature costal city provide the work boat (I though work boat caught whale in ocean)?

As stated before, workboats cannot cross the ocean.

Considering the gold produced is irrelevant. You need to compare the commerce produced to the cost of the city. Maybe you'll have to go to 80% some of the time, but it'll be 80% of a bigger number. As long as the commerce the city produces is more than its cost, you come out ahead - regardless of what your science rate is.

The true income of the city is the 40, not the 4.

I disagree. One of the most difficult parts of Civ4 is the financial. A city that doesnt 'pull' its own is a 'drag' on the rest of the empire. If you get too many such cities your empire will 'crash and burn'.

Oggums, you can't send 2 work boats from another city across ocean tiles. Work boats are limited to coast.

Work boats can go across ocean tiles within your cultural borders.

Wodan

If a civ is running 90% science, post-Astronomy, then the extra maintenance in this city won't likely hurt the economy too much. I think the science boost is more than worth it in most cases.

If there isnt any other place to put a city then sure. The extra science may be worth the extra maintenance cost. There are also strategic considerations. You might want a city there because it is in a good defensive position or just to keep anyone else from getting it.

All of these are considerations but I just dont think that you can say it is always good to build an island city.

I disagree. One of the most difficult parts of Civ4 is the financial. A city that doesnt 'pull' its own is a 'drag' on the rest of the empire. If you get too many such cities your empire will 'crash and burn'.
While what you state in the above quote is, strictly speaking, true, your conclusions are completely false.

A city does not pull its own weight on gold. It pulls it on commerce. Since you can freely adjust the sliders, how much of that commerce ends up as gold and how much as beakers is entirely irrelevant.

To demonstrate this, let's suppose the rest of your civ generates a total of 200 commerce, and your maintenance costs are 20 gold/turn. Hence you run 90% science and produce 180 beakers/turn with a balanced budget. Further suppose that the new city would generate 40 commerce and cost 28 - more than doubling your maintenance costs.

Based on your analysis, the city would only produce 4 gold, which is less than 28, so you should not found the city.

Based on a correct analysis, you will generate a total of 240 commerce with the new city, with total costs of 48 gold/turn. So, you run 80% science and produce 192 beakers/turn with a balanced budget. You've lowered your science rate to do it, but you're still producing more beakers.

Now, this is an idealized example. It'll almost never come out that pretty, with balanced budgets in both cases. But in any case, you can run, say, 80% some of the time and 90% some of the time to duplicate the effect.

Because you can adjust the sliders freely, comparing a city's cost to its gold production at your current slider settings is completely invalid and gives you NO useful information whatsoever. The comparison that actually tells you whether a city pulls its own weight is commerce to cost, NOT gold to cost.

Thank you Beamup. Some people seem to think that if only they can run at 80%+ research that that must automatically make them the tech leader, without even taking a look at 80% of what.

If there isnt any other place to put a city then sure. The extra science may be worth the extra maintenance cost. There are also strategic considerations. You might want a city there because it is in a good defensive position or just to keep anyone else from getting it.

All of these are considerations but I just dont think that you can say it is always good to build an island city.

Which is why I qualified my statement by saying "won't likely" and "in most cases". There will always be a case where something is bad when in most cases it's good, or even excellent. The experienced and/or observant player will learn to recognize these situations.

OK. I get you. I will give it a shot.

Work boats can go across ocean tiles within your cultural borders.
Fair enough, but in this case those borders didn't extend to the island, which is typical.


1. Is it possible to build city on the snow surface?
2. If a friend land on the island, and suddenly war broke, will they magically teleported of the island?

2. Yes. Its sometimes good to build cities on unworkable tiles (or very low value tiles like tundra), because the base value that the city tile produces will be the same as usual (exceptions being an extra hammer on hill plains or a bonus from settling on top of a resource), thus making the unworkable tile productive.

3. Yes. When borders become un-open, units will be transported outside the borders, even if that means going across water.

I have an aversion to building Work Boats first in new cities, but now I see that in certain situations it is the best choice. On a larger land-mass, I always feel the turns of production are being wasted since a Work Boat improves only one tile while Workers improve many (health bonuses aside.)

I enjoy building workboats first in new cities with fish/clams etc, because the city continues to grow while the boat is under construction--unlike workers which halt growth. Then, even better, once the workboat has added its +3 food to the tile, the worker can be built even faster since the food goes straight into its production.

EDIT: spelling and grammar. :)

Copied from RB7

The basics of a Fishing Village are:
1. Culture (to pull in all seafood and resources).
2. Granary. (Granary before Lighthouse in all cases, because of Slavery!)
3. Lighthouse.
4. Forge. (Forges increase slavery production as well as normal production).
5. If running Organized Religion civic, the state religion. (Increases slavery on buildings).

VoiceOfUnreason, 1 and 5 are the same issue, if you bring a missionary to the village with your settler, then having the state religion takes care of increasing cultural borders. You dont need much culture, because your culture will only expand to 2 squares across the water anyway. Point 2 doesn't particularly make sense, because before the lighthouse your population will not tend to grow large enough to even make good use of slavery. A 100% food production bonus from coast trumps a 50% growth bonus.

It seems like that list might have been oriented towards a new village along the coast of a large island or continent, not a one tile island.

Point 2 doesn't particularly make sense, because before the lighthouse your population will not tend to grow large enough to even make good use of slavery. A 100% food production bonus from coast trumps a 50% growth bonus.


Not quite 100% - the lighthouse doesn't improve the city production at all, and only 50% on the unimproved fish. You don't get 50% overall improvement until you are up to size 4 (2+3+3+2+2 instead of 2+2+2+1+1). And if the fish are hooked up, it takes a larger population than that.

It's probably not a big deal either way. Or I'm overlooking something else....

Errata, I think he's right on the Granary before Lighthouse, because of the Fish resources. No resources, build lighthouse first. Yes resources, build Granary first.

The city will grow just fine to size 3... adding a lighthouse will provide what, 15% increase in speed for Slavery? The Granary, on the other hand, with provide around 35% increase.

Of course, it's somewhat of a moot point, because with Slavery your first two buildings will almost certainly be these two, and Slavery is fast enough that the order you do them in isn't such a big deal.

Wodan

It will always have strategic value. Like Guam in the pacific. Your boats can go there to repair and your planes can rebase there. Also if you get it up high in people you can make it have lots of specialists and have it be a great person producer city.