** LAND MINE UNIT FINISHED - SCROLL DOWN TO LATER POST **


I used to make units for Civ II all the time so naturally I had to make some for Civ III.

I am working on a Land Mine unit. A/D/M : 1/60/1. Like a cruise missile, it is destroyed after attack. Hidden Nationality too. I thought this could go under "Smart Weapons" (because your own units would be able to pass over them no problem.) tech but i'm open to other ideas.

Sorry, trying the image again:
C:\My Documents\My Projects\civstuff\Land Mine\preview.gif

I think that land mines would be a huge addon for this game. Please email me when this is finished.

Aparently some of your files are missing (probably the ini file) or is under a different name or directory.

I have a recomendation, the mine should be 0/60/0 and have paradrop ability, so whe you place it, it can never be moved again...

In response, I'd like to say, I agree with the 0/60/0 and paradrop idea.

I seem to have some trouble attaching the pic.

I was just thinking. I think the land mine needs to have an attack of 1 because if it is 0, wouldn't the enemy would capture it instead of getting blown up?

Does anyone else use Animation Shop for units? i try to set the transparent color to the pink color that is in the background, but when i save it and go back to the properties, it has been changed back to opaque. Is this a problem? anyone know how to fix it? also what color depth do i need to use? 256? 16.7 million?
I think I'll take another look at the tutorial on this site.

I'm attaching a pic of the mine in default state.

What do y'all think of how it looks?

A unit only gets captured if it has defense 0. Attack 0 just means it can't capture cities (which is what you need), at least that's what I've heard about it.

IMO, defense 60 is a little extreme - this means that the unit will never get destroyed! Since a land-mine can't attack I think the cruise missile flag won't do anything.

I think a land mine unit should be very cheap (say 10 shields) and a rather low defense, such as 4-5, so that in modern times it only has a chance to damage offensive units, while destroying them only in very defensive terrain, like mountains or jungle.

I also think that smart weapons is unrealistically too late for a land mine. Land mines have been around at least since 1930's (maybe in WW1 as well, I'm not sure) and definitely in WW2. So my suggestion for prerequisite tech would be something like Mass Production.

A different suggestion is that you could possibly have more than one type of mines, with the same graphics, so that they evolve with type.

An early version, maybe, available with Mass Production, with defense 2-3, cost 10, so that cavalry which is common in that period has a chance against them.

A later version, maybe available with Minituarization, with defense 6-7 (so that they are effective against tanks), cost 20, and maybe more expensive (cost 40) anti-tank mines, with defense 9-10, available with Minituarization as well.

Hidden nationality is good, but it means that in peace time the minefields will have to be protected as the AI will try to destroy them!

The thing with paradropping is that you an airport in the city from which to airdrop mines. I don't know if it would work, but maybe giving mines a footsoldier flag, and introducing a unit like a truck (made by Dark Sheer) to transport 'footsoldiers' would solve the problem of laying minefields.

Another possible issue is that the AI might build lots of mine units to defend its cities (since they are so cheap). This might finally solve the problem that the AI keeps spearmen even when you have Modern Armour, but I'm not sure what effects it will have on game balance. Of course, heavily mined cities are quite realistic, but having an army practically fully comprised of land mines is not!

These are just my thoughts on the issue of land mines in Civ3.

yeah. i think your right about the attack 0 thing. thanks for correcting me. I figured out some of the bugs and hopefully will have the finished version up in a few days.

Smart Weapons was only a suggestion. My rationale was that at defense 60 (which, after consideration, should be lowered drastically) it would be a very strong unit and reserved for late in the game.

Thanks for all your interest in my unit.

Originally posted by pesoloco
I was just thinking. I think the land mine needs to have an attack of 1 because if it is 0, wouldn't the enemy would capture it instead of getting blown up?

Does anyone else use Animation Shop for units? i try to set the transparent color to the pink color that is in the background, but when i save it and go back to the properties, it has been changed back to opaque. Is this a problem? anyone know how to fix it? also what color depth do i need to use? 256? 16.7 million?
I think I'll take another look at the tutorial on this site.

I'm attaching a pic of the mine in default state.

What do y'all think of how it looks?

I think it looks great! :goodjob:

About time I see more units here ;)

As to your color problem, are you using one of the original flc's pallete as a start? The trouble with Civ3's flc is 1) the flc header 2) the pallete info. Thats the reason you need Flicster from moeniir instead of just using Animation Shop.

From what you mentioned with the crash, I believe it got to do with the header info. Get Flicster from the utility section and your problem will be solved. :D

As to the pallete issue, I always use a current unit's pallete as a base so I don't get mess up with the transparent color, Civ color and shadow color. :cooool:

Thanks for the compliment, Dark Sheer. :lol:

I got the colors and graphics to show up right now. I want to do some tweaking to the land mine graphics before i put it up here. I just tried it out in the game and it works great. I have free time tommorrow so I'll probably have it up then.

I have several more ideas for units so once i finish this one I'll be posting some more.

:)

i love the landmine idea, filling whole fields with mines will drop all those attacking tanks.

just an addition to this idea, how about sea mines? they could be carried by ships, but have no move of their own, not sure if it would work though.

another idea could be the minesweeper, though this would probably be impossible to make

For those who want to know what the mines look like in the game i have attached this picture

Well, I finished the animations!!!! And sooner than I thought!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The attached zip file contains the following files:
(copy them all into sub-folder "\art\units\Land Mine\"
Land Mine.ini
mineboom.wav
LandMineAttackA.flc
LandMineDeath.flc
LandMineDefault.flc
LandMineRun.flc
lmicon.pcx


lmicon.pcx is the icon that you can paste into units_32.pcx

I did not do the Civilopedia icons or entries yet. I will have these soon though.

Thanks for your support and patience....

Historical note:

The American Civil War (1861-65) saw use of land "torpedos." These where artillery shells or like explosive containers with a percussion cap or other detonator. The devices were buried along roads where the enemy was likely to pass. Newspaper accounts refer to these "infernal devices" a popular term in the era for very wicked inovations (like exploding bullets). The mines should be avail. with riflemen.

cameramano,
Nice to see a Bible verse in your post. :)

I didn't know about these civil war land mines. Thanks for filling me in. I was thinking of making them available with gunpowder or chemistry. then as suggested by sgrig, having varying types of mines available with later techs such as miniaturization.

I think I'll just leave the tech requirement and A/D/M up to your own personal preference rather than try to dictate what I think it should be.

I just played a little and had a huge field of mines. It sure helps. The barbarians are no longer much of a nuisance. By the time the enemy gets through (if they get through) they have been weakened.

Have fun!!!!
:lol: :lol:

Originally posted by pesoloco
In response, I'd like to say, I agree with the 0/60/0 and paradrop idea.

Already tried this type of units. AI won't deploy such units, only stacking them in the city (even if the city have airport). ANd it is not hauling them by land transport either. I'd advise give it movmement it 1 and wheeled. At least AI would use them then.

What about giving them 1 movement but immobile with load capability ?

Will the AI deploy them using some land transport? In my game the AI actually use truck to transport the settlers as I set the truck to be defensive units. :cool:

I experienced the same with 0/60/0. So I changed it to 1/20/2 and foot soldier. this seems to work pretty well.

The immobile and load capable sounds good but i haven't tried it.

Great idea, BTW. I've seen a lot of suggestion for when the land mine should be available, etc., and maybe you can solve this by making them available with Mass Production but upgradeable to just simple "mines" with Flight that can be paradropped both on land and ocean/lake squares (ocean mines have also been around for quite awhile). You could also make ocean mines visible only to submarines, but I'm not sure how you'd do that.

Originally posted by Dark Sheer
Will the AI deploy them using some land transport? In my game the AI actually use truck to transport the settlers as I set the truck to be defensive units. :cool:

That is reallly interesting. I tried transport, but could never make AI to use it. May be the idea is that transport should have defence more then unit ?

Originally posted by DazednConfused
You could also make ocean mines visible only to submarines, but I'm not sure how you'd do that.
make them submarine. But the prob with submarine ist that looks like they are at least sometimes visible while they shouldn't be.

Ok, I wouldnt be suprised by this but how were they fused? It was my impression that most of the weapontry was fairly simple during that era. Batterys were not available for contact switches. You could do a pump to prime but that would require the soilder stand on it and bounce there foot repeatedly. Not trying to discount it as I think its cool, Just curious.

Actually the hunley used water based torpedos. Basicly non motor driven put on a long pole on the front on the ship it would basicly ram with the torpedo. Course it was a 1 shot deal and stood a good chance of doing more damage to the hunley then the enemy.

My thoughts on using mines is you really need to deploy multiple levels of mines. at least industrial and modern age ones. Too bad you cant add an unhappiness flag to them. The problem with land mines is there rather indiscriminate in whole they kill. This doesnt lead to a happy population when little joey goes running into the field and finds one. Countrys where they have been heavily used are still not happy. There are several hundred deaths worldwide due to the blasted things every year.

just an idea... dunno if it is even possible though.

maybe if it is possible you could make it so the mines kill ANYONE (regardless of nationality) who comes in its way - including you. Not only would it make it more realistic, it would solve part of the problem of the AI stacking them up all around their cities.

as far as i know, any units that you create will never attack your own units, even if they have hidden nationality. Even though there was this one time i played (before the patch came out) where when my workers ran back to the city, the infantrymen and riflemen guarding the city shot and killed them. (this sounds very strange but it actually happened - obviously a bug) it only happened that one time. never happened again.

At first I was leary and theres still some problems with using this unit but I do like it.

Problems:
1: AI cant figure out how to us it.
2: Setting it to hidden nationality causes a kamakazi storm from my neighboors unless I assign units to protect my mines which just seems silly.

I actually installed it twice. I use it as a sea mine (sinks in ocean) and it works nicely there too. Again the same problems with the AI and hidden nationality.

Id like to see a cant be in city flag.

Also if you build a bunch the ai views it as military combat strength. They are after all units.

Very cool idea though.

If you have the time id like to see a sea mine graphic. Id do it but I cant draw a straight line with a ruler much less the computer.

First, create a new unit called 'Mine Layer/Infantry Transport' or whatever. Give it the Radar Artillery graphic. Give the unit move-2 attack-0 defense-0, Carry 2, Carry Foot Units Only, requires the tech that tanks require (I forget). Creat the land mine unit, give it move-1, attack0, defense-10, bombard attack-30, bombard range-0, bombard rate of fire-3, Foot Soldier, Immobile, Hidden Nationality, requires same tech as the mine laying unit. The mine laying unit doubles as an infantry transport, and the mine will damage units as they attack a tile, but will be less effective against more modern units, simulating their increased ability to detect mines. Any of the numbers except the zeros can be changed for balance. Also, you'll need to create a capture animation for the mine layer.

I thought the idea with mines were that the enemy shouldnt be able to see them, but they can in the game, right?

Personally I think that the land mines should become available with Replacable Parts and after Electronics, opponents can detect them if they're in a certain range of a city with Barracks, or within range of a Battleship or AEGIS cruiser.

This might be hard to program, but would be very realistic.

Originally posted by fimp
I thought the idea with mines were that the enemy shouldnt be able to see them, but they can in the game, right?

If you are worried about the enemy seeing the land mine, give it the Stealth ability. I believe this will solve your problem.

*This discusion operates under the theory that the units in Civ are representative of a military squad not and individual (a group of infantry not a single soldier)
This makes sence sine to make 'one' worker requares a citezen which represents about a thousand ppl.

*Your own units being able to move through your mind field makes some sence.
your own ppl would know what areas were mined, they would have maps of what areas to avoid while they continued useing the farms etc.
However because of this we would have to assume that the ENTIRE terrain square was not mined so obviously their dmg would have to be fairly light.
Since an attacking force would run into a few lines of mines as they moved not solid totaly filled miles of terrain.

*About hidden nationality and Stealth. Stealth seems reasonable and combineing those two atributes would cut down on the AI suicididing on your mines.
*However while individual mines are hidden an enemy will learn fairly soon were they are (such as one killing someone). so seeing what squares are mined is something that can be argued for.

its a pity you cant release units from your control and turn them into barbarians. In SMAC you could release alien liform units into the wild (even ones you had built) If Civ3 had a similar option for realism porpuses you could have the mines turn into barbarian units when they were deployed (and they are imoble so you would be all set).
But that would require programing triggers to tell if the mine was deplyed or not so it could decide if it was time to go barbarian so im just dreaming :-)

Originally posted by Umask077
Ok, I wouldnt be suprised by this but how were they fused? It was my impression that most of the weapontry was fairly simple during that era. Batterys were not available for contact switches. You could do a pump to prime but that would require the soilder stand on it and bounce there foot repeatedly. Not trying to discount it as I think its cool, Just curious.


the world did not begin with the invention of the dry cell battery. :rolleyes:
(And dont confuse 'old' with 'simple' or 'obvious' ppl still cant figure out how to make Greek Fire and if you get right down to in a bow or a trebuche is a pretty impresive exercise in phisics :D )
There are and have been many types of mines im not shure how the early ones were triggered but i would think it was a mechanical trigger of some sort spring driven i would imagine.

Remember you dont need electricity to ignite explosives.
Guns have done without it for hundreds for years. :king:
They use a spring driven hammer to detonate a small charge which in turn ignites the main propelant.

Sea mines or as you as they were called at first torpedoes were set off by
the force of the ship hitting a blasting cap sorta thing on the mine (I think).
I would imagine that landmine worked and/or worked in a way similar to either that or a gun

Edit: for slight clarification.

Could you give them teh submarine flag?
then you could give the 'see subs' flag to the mine layer/troop transport
unit suggested earlyer.

kill two birds with one stone: mine deploying and enemy mine detecting.

I,ve made 3 (three) mines avail. in my game (:

They are:

OZM-3_Land_Mine (upgrades to OZM-4)
OZM-4_Land_Mine (upgrades to OZM-72)
OZM-72_Land_Mine

Stats:

OZM-3 = A/D/M = 0/20/1
OZM-4 = A/D/M = 0/25/1
OZM-72 = A/D/M = 0/30/1

Wheeled
Hidden Nation

The Civlopedia is aready done. Now I,m just working out the requirements for when they will be allowed to be built.
Any suggestions would be great.

Not sure if this can be done (I'm not a mod programmer) but...

I think that land mines are not so much a defensive weapon, as a way of denying all nations access to certain land areas, with the side effect of leaving them economically useless for a period. They also can deny or reduce movement speeds along roads and railroads and make airports and harbors useless for a period.

Ideally landmines would be weapon delivered by artillery, bombers or a special minelayer unit onto empty land squares.

They could then:

- Have a 50/50 chance of causing massive bombard damage to a unit that passes over them. Maybe reduce this to a 25% chance of damaging friendly troops?

- would restict movement to all units attempting to pass through the square (i.e. all units have will stop in the mine square and cannot move out until the next turn irrespective of railroads and roads).

- Can be cleaned up by worker units as a type of pollution, possibly with a random "disease" type risk to the worker?

- If they are in a city square they can cause the square to be polluted, and any population put to work in those squares becomes immediately unhappy until moved out.

Bombers and artillery could also bombard minefields to clean them up or reduce the damage odds, but of course when bombarding a square the improvements might also be destroyed before the mines are cleared.

Personally I think that mines should always be visible to everyone, as most will be known to the local population who will tell your units.

The best way for this unit to work would be if the mines were automatically cleaned up after a period of time (its unrealistic to expect mines to last more than say 50 years). The only exception might be to have mines in areas that are not within anyones borders lasting longer. Could mines simply automatically turn into pollution after a specific number of turns (say 4)? This and the fact that they might damage your own units would make them a tricky unit to use on a city or area you are about to invade.

Could you also have mines dropped in the middle of a city to stop the functioning of the airport and/or harbor for a turn? Alternatively how about mining a city resulting in it not being able to launch any planes or ships for a turn?

Soz if none of the above is possible.....
:crazyeyes

Stainz,

I would like to have a copy of your three mines setup when complete.

Pesocola,

Did you think that you would get this response?


How about a B-52 Bomber when you guys get time.

thanks


As for the mining issues. For every aspect of war there is always something to counter that threat. How about creating mineclearing tanks and mineclearing vessels? Also, I have recently read that there are nuclear naval mines. . .

No, I didnt expect so much interest in the land mines. Stainz, are the graphics for your mines all the same or are they different? Also, could you post your civilopedia entries, I would do it but I am short on time right now. (College projects - due dates always come sooner then you think!)

I'll work on the B-52 bomber and mine clearing tanks as soon as I get the chance.

tstowe, thanks for all your input and ideas... I'm working on it. I think you'll be pretty happy with what I come up with.

Actually I won't be surprise that they actually have mines during Civil War. In fact, nothing much surprises me anymore after what I see in china last year.

I discovered that the chinese army has already been using crossbow that uses auto loading of bolts at about 200BC!! Man, their swords were still made of bronze and yet they have automatic crossbow!! :cool:

The man can type, but can't spell worth a ****. haha Sorry about gouging your name pesoloco.

Yes, I am very pleased with your units and I am looking forward to many more. Of course, I am continuing my search for more challenging units for you. :D


Stay alert, Stay Alive!

Originally posted by Dark Sheer
Actually I won't be surprise that they actually have mines during Civil War. In fact, nothing much surprises me anymore after what I see in china last year.

I discovered that the chinese army has already been using crossbow that uses auto loading of bolts at about 200BC!! Man, their swords were still made of bronze and yet they have automatic crossbow!! :cool:

The chinese invented the crossbow itself in about 400 BC.
before that they were using normal bows with 100-150 pound draw weights!
i dont even want to think about what that would do to you if you got hit.

Ive been reading Sun Tzu's Art of War,
(i got a copy from Amazon with some useful backround info in it too)
good stuff much of it directly aplicable to Civ
go get a copy now its a suprisingly interesting read and more useful
than most of the stratagy guides writen directly for games (cheaper too).

Originally posted by tstowe
Stainz,

I would like to have a copy of your three mines setup when complete.



Well, I,m done. Here,s what I think the mine(s) should be like( ? )

Three choices to choose from:


All credit for gfx and stuff, goes to, pesoloco.

Thanx for such a wonderful killing unit.
Unfortunatly, I only use these mines for the Russians and a few select Civs. As I play as a Civ that I made, Canada.
But the sh@ty thing is, I keep crashing whenever I hit F4 ( Diplomacy ):
But I am going to make ( alter ) mines for every Civ that is in the original game v1.6f based off the original by pesoloco.
And no, I,m not tring to a**kiss. I just wish i could figure out that FLICster (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/moeniir/lst?.dir=/FLICster&.order=&.view=l&.src=bc&.done=http%3a//briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/moeniir/lst%3f.dir=/FLICster%26.src=bc%26.view=l) thing ):


The old mines gfx along with my try at FLICster listed as, "opt. animation"

Thanks stainz.

Originally posted by tstowe
The man can type, but can't spell worth a ****. haha Sorry about gouging your name pesoloco.


It's ok. No hard feelings.
I sumtymes misspel stuff two :-D

Originally posted by pesoloco
Stainz, are the graphics for your mines all the same or are they different? Also, could you post your civilopedia entries, I would do it but I am short on time right now.


Sorry, I missed the post ): Anyways, the Flic and unit_32.pxc files are still the same, the only difference I made, was to add the two pedia directoies and the look in the city build screen ( at least they worked on mine ).

I would like to alter the Flic file, but alas, I,m stupid. Can,t figure things out yet. But I also included the originals from which I based mine off of, so if you would like to give it a try, pls. do.

Originally posted by tstowe
Thanks stainz.



the topic says it all (:

The "Stealth" flag does NOT make units invisible in any fashion. It ONLY alters the percent chance that an AIR mission is intercepted. Those numbers are located on the "General" tab.

I have found that by checking the "Explore" checkbox in the AI section of the Units Editor, you can make the AI deploy the land mines rather than stock them up in a city.

Interesting,I already tried this explore flag and it was not working for me. It deploying mines by airdrop or transport ? What era it happens ? Will it deploy on it's own territory or only neutral ?

Originally posted by skywalker
The "Stealth" flag does NOT make units invisible in any fashion. It ONLY alters the percent chance that an AIR mission is intercepted. Those numbers are located on the "General" tab.

I have discovered that giving this unit "submarine" ability will prevent enemies from noticing it. Add hidden nationality and once they do notice it (by stepping on it) they wont know who did it.

I installed 1.17 and rebuilt my bic adding all the units id collected.

The land mine I marked.

A:1 D:5 M:1
Submarine.

The computer actually dropped them behind my lines using an air transport and set them on my resources. Worse yet when I would use a go command my units would run into the mine and die.

Would have been alot more funny if i had remembered to mark some units with the ability to see submarines on land :).

Request for a WW2 Mine sweeper unit if someone has the time.

The mines are truely awesome.

Current technology for mine remove consists of a really big plow on the front of MA if someone wants to do that one as well.

I will begin work on a mine sweeper unit.
It needs the ability to "see submarines"

if we give the mine sweeper a high attack factor, the computer will use it as a weapon instead of using it to remove mines.

What I suggest is give it a high bombard strength so the bombard ability can be used to take out the mines ( or at least weaken them)

(attack 0, defend: 2? move : 2??)

any other ideas?

does anyone have a picture of a mine sweeper?

I have to dig through the kids playroom to see if I can find one of my sons army men.

Bombard would probably work as minesweepers typcially made a path through the mine field, weakening it, not destroying it.

Basicly a WW2 Minesweeper was just a guy, no gun, but a big metal detector. In WW2 mines were heavily antitank, Most mines now a days however are antipersonal and are set off by things like wrist watches and metal detectors. The modern solution is a plow on a tank. Do they go off? yes, does the tank care? No....

With regards ways of detecting mines:

1. For mine fileds you can use the Viper. This is a rocket that is fired across the mine field from a tank. It has attached to it an explosive line, like det cord, which explodes on impact on the ground. This destroys all mines within the lines corridor, and the width of the corridor enables at least 2 tanks abreast through.

2. Another method, which is being trialed at present is using a blimp ship and radar, I believe. It is currently being used in Kosovo, and has been highly effective.

Hello,
I need help with choosing the most efective settings for this unit.
I am currently creating a "realisticWorld" mod, and I am busy testing all the time. I would like to emplement this unit. However, it would be of great help to me if the knowledgable people would inform me as to the best stats (all the stats) to give it. This would save me SO very much time.
THX

Is this for a mine clearing unit?
And if so which era are you looking at??

Can anyone post good stats for the landmine (including stealth, submarine ability, attack, etc.)?

Please...

This is what I use:
A/D/M: 0/10/1
Type: Land Unit

Abilities:
Submarine ( "Invisible" )
Hidden Nationality

pesoloco,

could you make a naval mine? this would have similar statistics to the land mine but would be used to protect your port cities.

here is a pic

Sure, I can make that.
Just gimme a little bit of time.
That's a good picture.

I'd like to say thanks by uploading the civilopedia icons I made for the unit.

You're all welcome and thanks, Razorwing for the work on the Pedia Icons.

I can't help with the game play but here is a brief history of mines.
Unless the Chinese used some sort of early land mine. The first mines were sea mines and readily available during the Civil War. Faragut's "Damn the torpedos. Full speed ahead." Was a reference to mines placed in Mobile bay. During the Civil war. These mines were indeed Mechanical and did not require a battery.

The earliest use of a weapon similiar to land mines might be the British Grenadeers. They carried these small casks of powder which were fused and had to be ignited then thrown. The Grenadeers were selected for their height and strength. If the Chinese used mines theirs were probably fused also.

The first use of what we call mines was actually used during WWI. To stop Allied tanks, The Germans buried artillery shells and used a pressure fuse.

The effective use of mines was during WWII. There an AT mine would be a hub for severl AP mines. The AP mines actually protected the AT mine, and that is still true today. The only concerted use of AP mines was/is along the East German border and North Korean border during the cold war.

The capability to airdrop, artillery dispense mines was not available until 1970, These mines are AT mines with additional tripwire fusing to add an AP component.

Mines are employed to deny terrain and the idea of having units stop or slow is very good. Good Stratego players know that you should always cover a minefield with fire.

There is no reason why mines can't be visable. Even modern mines can be almost impossible to remove. Tanks with plows are in effective against a mine 3 or 4 ft down, and the Army's explosive remover, The MICLIC, is of only limited value. It only picks up surface layed or shallow mines. We tested them during the Gulf War and they really didn't work well in the best of conditions.

For the timeline my suggestions would be. Sea mines with Gunpowder and Magnetism.

Simple mines layed by truck with industrialization or transportation. With Industiialization, we had the capability just not the reason. Modern mines with the advent of advance flight or modern artillery.

well nuff said. I really like the idea if they won't give me the old zone of control.

t

A historic note. Faragut was on the 4th ship back.

t

I am having problems with the CIV editor. The unit abilities window will not let me select more than one ability unless I highlight everything between the two abilities. The same goes for the "Available To" (countries) window. Does anybody know what the problem is?

Originally posted by Eugenevdebs
I am having problems with the CIV editor. The unit abilities window will not let me select more than one ability unless I highlight everything between the two abilities. The same goes for the "Available To" (countries) window. Does anybody know what the problem is?

Hold the CTRL button and click on the items in the list. Using CTRL will let you choose multiple items.

This unit sounds really cool. I am curious though what the stats of it would be (I see it is kindof still in testing stage)

Nice animations!

GIDustin

Originally posted by GIDustin
This unit sounds really cool. I am curious though what the stats of it would be (I see it is kindof still in testing stage)

Nice animations!

GIDustin

For stats, I use:
A/D/M: 0/10/1
Abilities:
-Submarine
-Hidden Nationality

Req Tech: Chemistry

As far as being in testing stage, it really isn't. It works fine. There are still some discussions about its abilities, but when it comes down to it, you get to decide for yourself what you think it should be.

Would this be a land or sea unit?

If it is a land unit, then the unit could be used as a regular defensive unit as the 10 defense would obliterate the musketman's 4, which is the normal defensive unit at that time.

I dont know if the AI will use land mines as their defensive units in cities, but that would suck if they did as the land mine could defend a city from most "reasonable" invasions :P

Why such a high defense anyway? And how would it operate as it should (dissappearing after first use)?

IMO, mines and things like this are really just the tools that other units use, like grenades or mortars or machine guns. I dont think civ3 is capable yet of handling special suicide-defender units like this.

The way I see it the game handles the mines very well.

When an enemy enters a space with the mines, it either harms the enemy to some degree and is destroyed or it kills the enemy but weakens the mine.

Since Civ units represent whole troops of soldiers, the mine unit would represent a field of mines.

For the case where it harms the enemy but mine is destroyed, this would represent when a mine field explodes and injures enemy soldiers. Once all the mines are activated, the mine field is gone (in civ it is destroyed)

For the case where it kills the enemy and weakens the mine, this would represent when an enemy steps on the mine and is killed, but still more mines remain on the field.

As far as the AI using them to defend cities I think that as long as the Defend AI setting is not checked, it will be ok, but I havent tested that theory yet

I am always glad to see people put alot of effort into their projects. Good job

hi. I have a problem. i tried to build a landmine and my game crashed to the desktop. I have no clue y. I put the pedia icons in the right spot, i have the units_32 pic. i put the wav file in the folder LandMine too. I have no clue on what to do. Can u help me with this. Thanx in advance.

Originally posted by Civanator
hi. I have a problem. i tried to build a landmine and my game crashed to the desktop. I have no clue y. I put the pedia icons in the right spot, i have the units_32 pic. i put the wav file in the folder LandMine too. I have no clue on what to do. Can u help me with this. Thanx in advance.

Perhaps there is a spelling mistake:
In the editor did you call the unit "Land Mine" (with a space) and the folder name is LandMine? If so, it will crash. The folder has to have the same name as the unit in the editor. Also the unit's ini file must also have that same name. I think in the Zip file I called it "Land Mine.ini" (with a space)

I'm sorry. With further investigation i found the ini file. i over looked it cause i wanted to try the unit so much. anyway, thanx for your time.

Now i have another problem. Whenever i try to build a landmine my game crashes. I have no clue y. or when i try to change production in the build que. I can build the unit but then it crashes when i do. can you help me? also i wont b home for a week so i wont b replying.

Originally posted by Civanator
Now i have another problem. Whenever i try to build a landmine my game crashes. I have no clue y. or when i try to change production in the build que. I can build the unit but then it crashes when i do. can you help me? also i wont b home for a week so i wont b replying.

Check the default animation. this is what is loaded when you select the unit in the build queue. Check the spelling and make sure it matches up with what is in the INI file under DEFAULT=

it says DEFAULT=LandMineDefault.flc and the INI file is LandMine and the unit is LandMine

Originally posted by Civanator
it says DEFAULT=LandMineDefault.flc and the INI file is LandMine and the unit is LandMine

Is the folder named "LandMine" (without a space between land and mine)??

Other than that I can't figure out why it wouldn't work. The only other advice I can give is redownload it and unzip it into a folder (with the space). Change the name in the editor so it has a space. If that doesn't work then you may need to reinstall Civ.

How's that naval mine coming along?

Originally posted by Kal-el
How's that naval mine coming along?

i havent had a lot of time to work on it - actually i sort of forgot about it (i'm sorry), but since you mentioned it i will speed things up a little.

great. thanks.

or

great thanks.

lmicon.pcx is the icon that you can paste into units_32.pcx



I tried to paste it to unit_32.pcx and it wouldnt let me paste it there. do i have to paste it there? Where else can i put it?

Originally posted by Greeko
lmicon.pcx is the icon that you can paste into units_32.pcx



I tried to paste it to unit_32.pcx and it wouldnt let me paste it there. do i have to paste it there? Where else can i put it?

technically you don't have to paste it - you could use the icon of another unit.

What you need to do is load units_32.pcx into an image editor (maybe you are using an image viewer and it will not let you edit the image?) move the last 8 icons (after the privateer icon) up one slot. then load lmicon.pcx too and copy it. switch to units_32.pcx and paste it in the newly created open slot.

what program are you using to edit the units_32.pcx file?

If you are still having trouble changing the units_32.pcx (or anyone else), I have attached a zip with the units_32.pcx file with the land mine icon added.

NUCLEAR LAND MINES would rock. put them inside there base with hidden nationality. lol

Nuclear mines would be cool. are there really such a thing in real life?

You can use the land mine animations with a few minor changes to make them into nuclear mines:
[list=1]
Create a subfolder under \art\units called "Nuclear Mine" (without quotes)
Copy all the land mine files into "Nuclear Mine" folder
Rename Land Mine.ini to Nuclear Mine.ini
Copy ICBMAttackA.flc and ICBMAttackA.wav from \art\units\ICBM to art\units\Nuclear Mine
Delete LandMineAttackA.flc and mineboom.wav from Nuclear Mine subfolder
In the Nuclear Mine subfolder, rename ICBMAttackA.flc as LandMineAttackA.flc, and rename ICBMAttackA.wav as mineboom.wav
Use the editor to add a "Nuclear Mine" unit to civ3mod.bic
you're done! now go get 'em
[/list=1]

Now you can have two mines:
- Land Mines
- Nuclear Mines

question: how the !@#$ do you get it to work like a mine? i haven't tried it myself though, I will when i get my disc replaced. could you explain it in detail or perhaps animations/pictures of it being used?
thanks

Originally posted by explodin dog
question: how the !@#$ do you get it to work like a mine? i haven't tried it myself though, I will when i get my disc replaced. could you explain it in detail or perhaps animations/pictures of it being used?
thanks

It works like this:
- you set the unit with the following A/d/m: 0/6/1
- give it the "submarine" ability (or "invisible" in 1.21)
- then when you build it, move it to where you want it
- fortify it there

- your enemies won't see it, and run right into it

sorry, I cant post any pictures of it right now.

Hey guys this is a Great unit I am using it like this.

Land Mine Cost 4, 1m/1a/5d, Range: 8, ZC checked, 5b/0r/1f, HP Bonus: 2
Advance: Gunpowder
Requires Saltpeter
Abilities: Invisible, Detect Invisible, Imobile, Foot Unit
Actions: Load, Airlift, Airdrop
Scripts: Land, Defensive

Advanced Land Mine
Cost:5, 1m/1a/15d, Range 8, ZC checked, 15/0/1 HP B:5
Advance:Synthetic fibers
Abilities:Invisible,Deect Invisible,Imobile,Foot Unit,Lethal Land Bombardment
Actions:Load, Airlift, Airdrop
Scripts: Land, Defensive

Basicly they work like this they can only be used in cities until you get airports, Yes the AI uses them but only in cities even when they have airports.

They rock.

Great Idea about the nuke mine... but nukes are so horible in this game....

Originally posted by Meop79
Great Idea about the nuke mine... but nukes are so horible in this game....

thanks for the compliments.
as for a nuclear land mine I think it is a little unrealistic.
land mines are designed to kill whatever steps or passes over it.
nuclear mines would blow away a whole battlefield.

but it does make a fun unit if you do it that way.

hmm, wouldn't this mean that the mine stays if it wins the attack?

And dissappeares if the enemy wins?

Not like a mine, it should damage the enemy and self destroy. I don't think that's possible in the game.

Originally posted by Grey Fox
hmm, wouldn't this mean that the mine stays if it wins the attack?

And dissappeares if the enemy wins?

Not like a mine, it should damage the enemy and self destroy. I don't think that's possible in the game.

the way i see it is that the mine unit actually represents a mine field not a single mine.
when an enemy moves into its space, it blows up hurting the enemy. The enemy attacks it back weakening it. This represents how mines are being cleared off from the enemy tripping them. If the mine unit is weak (which represents that most of the mines in the field have exploded) the unit has a better chance of passing through it. (and disabling the mine field)

how do i download the compete mod for star wars? or is there one

Originally posted by richard shults
how do i download the compete mod for star wars? or is there one

I think this question is in the wrong thread. Anyway, I know tpasmall was working on a star wars mod. I dont know if he finished it. Try clicking on the Search button in the forum and looking for "Star Wars Mod"

Here's how i see it:

0/10/0 (maybe add bombard w/ range of zero too?)
Submarine
Hidden Nationality
Paradrop
Airlift
Immobile
Cruisemissile

Then give it "Explore" instead of offense of defense so the AI will actually send them out. Then, as far as mine sweeping, you don't need a new unit.

Give Fighters or helicopters "see submarine" flag, extend their range if you want. So when they do recon missions, they'll see the mines. you can then bomb it with a fighter or bomber to clear it. I haven't playtested it, but the only problem i see is that the AI instead of doing recon with planes to see the mines, will just send mine fodder to clear out fields. Either way, it adds some extra strategy.

Jezz,
That's a great idea. :goodjob: Thanks

Okay, I didn't follow and I don't understand, so I have a question(s)...:

1. What properties can I give it to be realistic? Which ones work well?
2. Will the AI be able to use it?

What works best if you want a realistic mine is this:
A/D/M 0/6-10/1
give it "explore" under AI Strategies
make it Invisible and Hidden NAtionality

one thing: I tested it the other night, and apparently the recon mission does not adhere to the flags, so it doesn't see invisible units on recon missions even if it has the "see invisible" activated.

So two solutions: Make the explorer "see invisible", so you gotta take him along on war campaigns to sweep, or just get rid of the invisible flag on the mine.

Another problem, with the hidden nationality flag, the AI goes into privateer hunting mode, and seeks them out like as if they're gold nuggets. They're like moths to the flame, they just keep coming at them, which is the opposite of the intention. They're suppose to avoid them if possible.... so its up to you if you want to flag it as hidden nationality, i took it off.

By the way, the wav file sounds a little funny, like its not looping correctly...

Originally posted by Jezz
one thing: I tested it the other night, and apparently the recon mission does not adhere to the flags, so it doesn't see invisible units on recon missions even if it has the "see invisible" activated.

So two solutions: Make the explorer "see invisible", so you gotta take him along on war campaigns to sweep, or just get rid of the invisible flag on the mine.

Another problem, with the hidden nationality flag, the AI goes into privateer hunting mode, and seeks them out like as if they're gold nuggets. They're like moths to the flame, they just keep coming at them, which is the opposite of the intention. They're suppose to avoid them if possible.... so its up to you if you want to flag it as hidden nationality, i took it off.

By the way, the wav file sounds a little funny, like its not looping correctly...

I will check out the wave file. I think it's probably he wrong format since this was my first unit.

if there isn't a hidden nationality flag you can use the mine to make blocks along borders. But a good strategy is that you put on hidden nationality and drop them in enemy territory to starve the enemy. I have seen this done when a barbarian galley came off the coast of one of my cities and my people started starving.

Here are the Attack/Defense, Fortify, Fidget, Death and Victory Sounds for Pesoloco's Land Mind.
...I made these sounds an electronic type due to the fact that the Land Mine does have flashing Lights and I thought it best to use the Mine with the Prerequisite- Electronics.
I have included the .ini file, a Small.pcx file that has a white background for those who want it and a Read Me for suggested editor settings. Note That I did not give this unit to the AI.
How ever you use this great little unit from Pesoloco, I hope you like the Sounds.
Size 139 KB
Download here: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Land_Mind_Sounds.zip

Enjoy :D

GREAT JOB on those sounds, Vuldacon!

Those are PERFECT for this unit!:goodjob:

My Pleasure Pesoloco...Thanks for the Unit and the feedback on the sounds. I usually never know if anyone likes them due to the fact that most posts are mainly feedback concerning unit animations. Your Land Mine has many ways it can be very successfully used. I am having too much Fun with it :D

Whats the consensus on these land mines?

Goals

I want the AI to deploy these, I dont care if it's by airplane or what. I just want the AI to use them.

I have checked:

invisible and explore.

&

airlift and airdrop

What else should I do?

Thanks in advance

Don't know if anyone has tried this or not, but I set my mines up with 1/5/1 A/D/M, 5/0/1 B/R/F and -1 HP flag. This way, the mine doesn't become stonger if say, two enemy units step onto the same square one after the other.

+ ofcourse the invisible, hidden nationality and wheeled abilities.

For those who use the Run.flc for Pesoloco's Land Mine, here is a simple Run sound that you can use. Game tested. Just unzip into your Land Mine folder and write the exact name of the sound byte (MineRun.wav) in the Land Mine.ini after RUN in the Sound section.
size: 6.89 KB

good news everybody. after doing some research on these forums, i found a thread that described how the transport flags work. Apparently the "transports only x" flags are Compared using the AND operator. In other words....a unit that has flags "transports only aircraft" and "transports only tactical missiles" will only hold units that have "tactical missile and foot unit" flags checked. this means a "minelayer " unit can be an APC or something that hcan only transport foot units and tactical missiles. then give mines both those flags, and they will be the only units allowed in the minelayer.

to work properly, of course, the mines would have to be immobile land units with no attack.

land mines were actually first used in the American Civil War.

I think I should post a revelation that I've encountered using the land mine. I had invested over 100 hours in a game, and then my game stopped working, it just hung forever. Well, atari couldn't figure it out, granted they barely tried (really didn't make me happy), then I came here to ask people to see if they had any ideas. Martin Isaksen came along and was extremely generouse and offered to track down the problem. He got a copy of all of my units, ran the game, used game editor, etc to try and figure out why my game went into no mans land just hanging. Anyway, I've cut and paste Martins findings.

I'd like for all you guru types to judge for yourselves, but I'm also posting this because it wasn't evident that what Martin already knew about this unit was known in this particular thread.

Thanks for your review of this issue,
Keith


--------------------------------------------------
Hi Keith,

got it working, and it crashed (hung) for me too - but it did seem a bit too familiar to me, so I went in and looked at the units, and I'm 100% sure that the Land Mine is your problem. The AI loads this unit on naval transports, and that's fine, but when it tries to make them disembark from a sea tile to a land tile (not unloading them in a city) then the game gets stuck. Since the Land Mine is Immobile, the AI simply can't make it disembark like a regular unit would, but it keeps on trying, creating an endless loop that makes the game hang.

We had the same problem in the DYP mod until we removed the Land Mine.

About your current game, it can either be fixed by removing all Land Mine units (at least from the AI civs - hehe) with the Civ3 Multitool, if you're familiar with that. That is of course only a temporary solution, unless you can find a way to keep the AI from building them again.

Martin
--------------------------------------------------
Martin,

Wow, I am kinda stunned that the game isn't smart enough to NOT do that.

Well, there are around 1800 units, and it will take me a bit to delete them all. Then of course as you said, its only a temporary solution since, as I understand it, you can't stop them from building them in the future. What a mess! I guess its time for me to start a new game. :(

Thanks a million! I'm so thankful to at least know what went wrong! By the way, does this mean the land mine is NOT possible?

Keith

--------------------------------------------------

Hi Keith,

Well, it's at least not possible the way we (and you) would want it to work. We tested a few other ways to use it, like making it mobile (removing the Immobile flag) and also one where it could not be transported by ships, but could only be Airdropped from cities. None of them worked too well, so we removed the Land Mine again, and are now hoping that the next Civ3 expansion will give us the options (and AI smartness :-) ) we need. It is a bit stunning that the game isn't smart enough to give up the first time it tries to move the land mine off a ship. :-(

If you manage to find a good workaround in the meantime, please let me know - most of our players have been all over us in disappointment after we decided to remove the unit, and we would really like to bring it back.

Best regards,

Martin

And I can verify that I did indeed write all that :)

If you just want to know,



a large antipersonnel mine like the Soviet PMN cost about US$3 each.

Thanks, but apparrently, unless the game maker changes something, this unity will not work.

Hey, been a while since there was a post here. Y dont you make the mine immobile and requires escort (using C3C 'princess' rules). this way, you can make it invisible, and it requires a unit with offensive power to put in place. the one thing is, I dont know how the AI would treat it...
That's my suggestion anyway.

Hey, been a while since there was a post here. Y dont you make the mine immobile and requires escort (using C3C 'princess' rules). this way, you can make it invisible, and it requires a unit with offensive power to put in place. the one thing is, I dont know how the AI would treat it...
That's my suggestion anyway.

Hey, been a while since there was a post here. Y dont you make the mine immobile and requires escort (using C3C 'princess' rules). this way, you can make it invisible, and it requires a unit with offensive power to put in place. the one thing is, I dont know how the AI would treat it...
That's my suggestion anyway.

Hey I'm new to this forum...but I read this section on mines and I think it rocks...but I don't how how I can get a mine in game or even where to download it...so if someone could specify on me how to do all this junk I would be very happy.

is this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31576) what you are looking for?

I've tried them and they are very useful

Greetings...

The concept of the land mine and other blocking terrain effects is actually quite ancient. Of course it hasn't always been deployed using JUST simple explosives, That's a fairly recent improvement to an otherwise very old idea in warfare.

The Caltrop is probably the simplest and earliest example of mining warfare. The ancient Chinese used them extensively.

Abatis is another example - Hidden Trash and poles set with spikes and other nastiness. Pit Traps, trip traps, and wire.

Of course in the early days, fire was a common tool in warfare, and trench lines filled with oil were a common defense. The Foss in front of Constantinople by land for example... The Moat of early castles is a simplistic form of blocking terrain and can be considered just as effective as any minefield.

Covered collapsable pits filled with stakes and disiesed with feces (AKA Pungy Sticks) is an Idea SO ancient, that the US military had almost completely forgotten about it when they encountered it yet again in South East Asia...

But the idea and the PURPOSE of a minefield is NOT to damage the enemy or to deny them the terrain, but simply to slow them down in the grand tactical sense. They are NOT a strategic weapon, nor do I think they should be included as a unit in Civ, as any real effect they might have is already built into the game. The denial of roads and rails in enemy territory is equivilent.

But I suppose if you DO want to include them, here's a more realistic progression:

There is absolutely NO point in NOT giving them movement points (just as there is no point in having them anyway - a regular military unit is far more useful, much more capable and a heck of alot more functional)


Available at the start - 0.(1.0).1.1 That's a defensive artillery strike at range 0. Invisible, (stealth does nothing). Unflagged is NOT useful. AI job should be defense, so they don't swamp you with them, but they will anyway. And if you plan on building hoards of them, you better make them not require support. Be aware that the AI wil NOT properly deploy them, cities will be full of them at the expense of more useful units.

They should get progressively more powerful as time and technology marches on.
with the defensive artillery strike getting more powerful and the firepower getting more powerful. The defense factor never really needs to be greater than 1. You simply march it out and fortify it in position. The cost over time should always stay the same, since the cost of any minefield is really always very slight economicly, but is a large investment in time and manpower, and always has been.

If you want a more powerful minefield, you just add more and build fortifications then Blockade on it. Remember that the mine should almost always lose the battle - but damage the opponent and use up it's attack and movement. So 4 of them in a stack will STOP even a Panzer or an army cold. A defense in depth. Remember that Minefields as a detail of battle have only ever worked on a strategic sense, only when the forces fighting were either small in number and the terrain of the battle was huge (Afrika 1941,42) or just the opposite - a huge number of forces in a very local area (phrokorovka a.k.a The Battle of Kursk 1943). Land density, or Unit density. That's the attack value of mining in warfare... It was estimated that the Russsian defense had deployed on average 1.7 MILLION mines per square kilometer in the Phrokorovka defense area.

Some things that have ALWAYS been true about minefields and other blocking terrain items:
Any minefield can always be cleared, unless the minefield is protected which is a contridiction in terms... The Idea is to make it expensive in TIME to clear the minefield.

There are really ONLY 2 kinds of minefields. Those that are advertised and those that are NOT. Even in WW2 - MOST Minefields were almost always advertised to the enemy - not the locations of the mines, but the fact that there WAS a minefield. Why? To get the enemy to deploy engineers to locate and clear them which could take weeks! It uses up his resources and keeps his engineers busy so they aren't looking for your UNADVERTISED minefields elsewhere.

No minefield ever won a battle.

No Minefield has ever Destroyed an enemy formation bigger than a squad. The New Panther Tanks used by the germans in the Battle of Phrokorovka were pretty much put out of action by Russian minefields. However they were NOT destroyed. Simply broken and needing repairs, thus most of them (nearly 65% among their other problems) never engaged in the battle.

Probably the most spectacular "victory" that a "minefield" has ever scored was at the Battle of Constantinople in 1453 when the Ottoman bashi bazouks attacked the walls across the Foss with siege towers. The Byzantines fired the Foss, (a huge trench filled with spiked logs, overgrown with brambles, and soaked in oil) catching the bashi in almost full strength and destroying many of the seige towers. To add insult to injury, the Byzantines then Flooded the Foss from the sea, while the bashi were trying to pick up their wounded and recover their dead. But the City fell anyway, an unlocked Gate!) and was looted and renamed Istanbul...

Mines as an explosive have been used in warfare since the early days of gunpowder. Simple buried "Bombs" with long fuses were used during the 30 years war to break up line formations of pikes. It was a surprise tactic used by Gustavus Adolphus ( the Swedish King who first deployed cannon in battle) who had ordered the ground prepared the night before the battle. His troops marched out onto the field, arrayed themselves, then simply about faced and marched a full 1/4 mile "BACK". The enemy tempted and confused marched up to meet them, not knowing that the ground was sown with hundreds of small buried kegs of powder wrapped with stones. The march out by the army was to cover the tracks of the engineers (bombadiers) to confuse the ground and press the grass down over the fuse lines (cloth tubes filled with powder), which couldn't be done the night before. When the Enemy reached the mined area, Gustavas ordered the fuses lit. Great plumes of smoke from the ground raced towards the confused enemy, not knowing what to expect. The army then turned and charged... About half of the bombs actually exploded on que, breaking and demoralizing the enemy formations, filled the air with great clouds of smoke, and scared the heck out of the enemy horse so badly that they enmass turned and uncontrolably fled the field. Some exploded during the melee, and many simply didn't explode. Gustavas had lots of powder, but the cannon hadn't arrived in time to get set up and dug in for the battle...

Explosive Mines in an automatic mode were first used enmass in WW1 along with barbed wire, artillery gas attacks and the machine gun in and defining Trench Warfare. It was also the first large scale deployments of anti-shipping mines (torpedoes). All had been used much earlier - but NOT on that scale.

The Phrase "Damn the Torpedoes - Full Steam Ahead" Commadore Dewey at the Battle of Manila Bay 1898 was refering to "Mines".... (No American vessels were damaged by the Mines!)

Greetings...

The Battle of Manila Bay was also the source of another famous line : "You may fire when ready Gridley"

Captain Charles V. Gridley of the OLYMPIA, died about a month after the battle due to poor health compounded by the insufferably hot and humid conditions in the Phillipines...

Greetings...

Oops... My mistake - The Damn the Torpedoes Quote is Wrong....

This famous quote was given by Admiral Farragut during the Civil War Battle of Mobile Bay.

Greetings...
And the actual Quote is:
“Damn the torpedoes! Captain Drayton, go ahead! Jouett, full speed!”

spamming git

I assume you are referring to my unintentional triple post? I apologize for that, but I can't seem to find a delete button....hopefully an admin can clean it up?

Why do you have 2 user accounts?

Who, me? I don't have two accounts.

I seriously have no clue what's going on. Who's spamming?

Who, me? I don't have two accounts.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Lighten up zulu

I spy spam spoiling some seriously seasoned strand :rolleyes:

Alright I do see a bunch of suggestions, personally I am still perplexed about how such a unit would be integrated into the game (although it is a great idea). Did anyone experiment with making it a unit requiring an escort? Would that work for combat units? Does anyone know?

I always gave it 0 movement, but with a paradrop. That way I could drop it, say up to 8 squares, away from a city. It would then never move (and thus never attack) but give it the invisibility flag and every time an enemy unit moves onto the same square the landmine will 'defend' itself. The only downside is that there is no guarantee that the landmine will be destroyed in the combat. I always rationalised this by saying that it was a landmine field, so not all of the mines would be destroyed in a oner.

I find myself allied with Kanda on this one-mines are devices used to delay, not destroy, the enemy. I also feel that one should go a step further and determine the SCALE of your game/mod/scenario before choosing them as a unit option.

If you are playing a large/huge map, any damage that minefields might cause would be so negligible as to be unworthy of inclusion unless your aim is to introduce a means of throwing accuracy of any kind out the window. This assessment has to do with simple unit size and how you view what it represents. The larger the map, the larger the unit representation-i.e.- on a huge map, units might be Divisions. If so, each unit represents thousands of men. Put them together into an Army and you're talking about a very formidable unit. On a smaller map, the unit icons would represent smaller numbers. On a normal sized map, a unit could be brigade sized.(3-4 brigades make a division) Go smaller, get smaller. A tiny map could serve up company-sized units.

With the historical knowledge that a Roman Legion was 1000 men divided into 10 centuries divided into 10 deca-whatevers, even in Ancient times the size of an Army of two, three or four Legions was huge. On the tiny map, a legionary unit could represent a Century. On a huge map, a legionary could represent an actual Legion. These considerations need to be factored when deciding whether or not to use mines of any kind.

How much of an impact would such a unit actually have upon the scale of YOUR map? As Kanda pointed out - in more modern times, humanity showed themselves capable of laying out multiple millions of the nasty buggers in areas little larger than a normal sized scale map square with very limited results that delayed things a bit but didn't really destroy anything. :shakehead

To me, mines are best suited to very small scale scenarios - perhaps the Civ 3 version of the Battle of Kursk or Normandy, the Six day War or numerous other scenarios where individual types of units are broken down into category rather than serving in the stock, game provided version. i.e., Panzers are the stock game version of the German tank but using units 32 and other unit mods you can have Panthers, Tigers, Mark IV's, Mark III's et. al. - if your game is of a scale that requires that kind of break-down, then landmines are definitely a must have. :)

The idea about nuclear mines could be used on a grand strategic scale but let's face it - that's a wipe the square, rather than a damage the unit, idea. I also think that using nuke mines would be an absolute last-ditch-fail-to-deploy-then-get-wiped-out kind of thing. No Civ is going to voluntarily drop nuke mines inside the borders of their own country for fear that terrorists or other undesirables would figure out how to neutralize and steal them. You'd have to sit Security Armies on top of them to prevent that kind of thing. :rolleyes:

Of course, I can not possibly mention these little tidbits without pointing out another reason why some players might just have a "can't live without mines" attitude. Putting mines in your game adds yet another cool graphic that shows stuff blowing up. If that's your angle then my only council is to paraphrase Farragut - "Damn the accuracy-full speed ahead!!" :D :D