i've played with many great players on fantastic maps.

A couple of my best memories are games provided by LKendter. We fight through the eras to keep somewhat close in technology, but in the end it always turn out to be the sword that get the intelligence.

We never had a goal or a plan.

Still we won!

How is this possible without a great leader like LKendter?

Well, he was the Wrath and the Vengenge! A mighty good leader in teams that wondered hither and dither and as a good shepherd he assembled them. To victory!

Now I want to get that feeling again, wanting more sweat&tears.

I'm the shepherd now!

Pangea
Standard map

That's it so far.

Any takers?

As long as we can plan ten turns ahead I am in.

I have not done a 5CC before but I think I am up for it - as long as you don't mind an American-born on your team that is :)

5CC and Deity? :eek: I definitely should try it :salute:

I need a challenge. Most of my SG's now (most ;) ) are going to be won without a doubt. Sign me up.

Lets discuss the starting conditions. What civilization will we use? For which victory condition are we aiming? World settings?

I'd vote for Ottomans, conquest/domination, Wet/Temp/3 billion :ar15:

as long as you don't mind an American-born on your team that is

Hmm, after some hesitation, you're in :lol: Welcome all of you.

Roster so far:

gozpel
zerksees
Smart
Own
open spot

Remember, this is kinda beyond Deity and need some skills.

Any thoughts of a good civ? I definately want a commercial one, maybe together with SCI or something?

Btw, are we shooting for any particular victory?

I definately want a commercial one
I am sure that this trait is useless in 5CC game, because OCN on standart map is much higher then five ;)

Any thoughts of a good civ?
Btw, are we shooting for any particular victory?
Did you read my last post? What about Ottomans? They have Scientific and Industrial traits btw...

Commercials plus x commerce per center city square in cities (where "x" = a # I'm not sure of) is a huge bonus. Can make a 20 gpt difference. Also, commercial helps corruption still (even if not exceeded OCN).

India sounds good to me. We can't be denied of our war elephants.

Every coin matters, so commerical is not useless.

Usually it's conquest in games like this, but if we can't beat them down I would say space. UN is out of the window and cultural, yeah, go figure :lol:

India get my vote, I haven't played them for a while and a no resource UU will help.

World settings:

standard pangea 70% - 7 rivals
wet, warm and 4 billion years (we have to have something for our workers to do :)
No scientific leaders
No barbs

Osman is cheesy, btw :lol:

IIRC, x = 1 ;). 5 extra gpt aren't worth it...

Yep, we will have to buy techs for gpt a lot of times, so we need all the money we can get.

I see I just about cross-posted with Own, who appearantly read my mind :)

x = 4 or more after size 13, and I agree with everyone here for the usefulness.
Can't sign-up because my schedule would make me regret it, although I probably will shadow at some point.

edit: 4 commerce + univs is 40 beakers/turn or 60 coins at Corporation with stocks, + Wall street makes 110 gpt - good stealing material. Not negligible.

Whoa :eek: , I did read your mind.

@Smart- I'm pretty sure the the number is 2 or more, maybe three.

x-post again, thanks beorn :crazyeye:

And don't forget the reduced corruption as commercial, not mind-boggling exactly with limited cities, but still useful.

Have we convinced you yet, Smart? :)

The corruption is better. I've actually found commercial civs to be good expanders. The second and third cities built usually don't have wasted shields until four, making early infrastructure easier to build.

And infrastructure we will build, all of it. :)

I'm itching to roll some maps, but we have to wait until everyone agreed or agreed to disagree on what civ we're gonna play.

Plus we need one more player.

@Beorn:
I've done some forum search, and the answer is: commercial trait add +2 gpt in towns, and +3gpt in metros. Until Sanitation it is 10 gpt...

Commerce :
• basic value : this of terrain, river bonus applying
• if city size = village : +1
• if city size = city : +4 if civ = commercial, +2 otherwise
• if city size = metropolis : +6 if civ = commercial, +3 otherwise
• if city = capital : at least 4
• if civ = seafearing & city = coastal : +1
• if government = republic/democracy : +1
• if golden age = on : +1

I will now try to calculate corruption advantage from commercial trait on 5CC

Is that last spot still open? I haven't played much on Deity, but I have done plenty of XCC games.

Commercial trait increase OCN to 125% from default. So we will get 25% less rank corruption.
OCN on standart map is 20. Deity level cut it to 12 (or 15 if commercial).

Rank corruption for cities with rank = 1,2,...,5:
1 >> 0.042
2 >> 0.084
3 >> 0.126
4 >> 0.168
5 >> 0.210

With commercial trait:
1 >> 0.033
2 >> 0.066
3 >> 0.099
4 >> 0.133
5 >> 0.166

Corruption difference = 0.63 - 0.497 = 0.133

So we will get 10 more gpt from center city squares before Sanitation, and 15 gpt after. Not as much as Beorn said :p, but it's nice economy boost. Also corruption will be 13.3% less. Sounds good, lets try India then :)

Btw, Stock Exchanges increace tax output, like markets and banks, but not research ;)

Actually your cities would be rank 0 to 4, for a corruption difference of 0.42-0.331=0.089. Still worthwhile (comparing the difference for each particular city might be better, but whatever), IMHO.

Sure, I forgot that capital isn't counts (rank = 0).
~9% is still good.

Yes, it is, and the center city square gold + the less corruption gets multiplied by 50% with lib/market and 100% with bank/ university.

I would love to play this game, but I am only a monarch player, I would recommend Greece.:D

We never had a goal or a plan.

It seems to me that you guys are already planning this time.
How about random?
That would be the epitome of not planning.

If you are planning then what about Rome, Greece or Korea? Sure Rome requires iron for the UU but I am guessing that we can trade for that if we don't own it outright. The hoplite sure helps with early survival should wars be needed. If you are going conquest then get me some leaders and lets play Rome!

Militaristic is bad. Our core cities can make raxes quick, and we only need one leader for a while.

Commercial
Religious
Militaristic
Scientific
Expansionist
Industrious
Agricultural
Seafaring

Relgious, Scientific, agricultural and seafaring sound good. REL really just because of the WE.

Mathias are in to and the roster is full:

gozpel
zerksees
Smart
Own
Mathias

I haven't played with any of you before and I hope I can keep up to your standards :)

When I said no planning, it was the full picture, like conquest and so on.

Of course we have to plan for builds and stuff, we are not totally without brains and ideas :lol: I hope.

I painted 2 people into my corner and we will play as India.

Starting to roll some starts now, I'm not overly fussed with food bonus and stuff. But I want a river and land enough to expand to.

Just a couple of basic rules in MY games. Don't stress with a granary right away, I lost a couple of XCC's because we couldn't found all cities in time, but we could dance around our pretty granary.

And most important, never tickle the AI's nerves. We are meek and humble, we grovel in the dust and we pay tribute. Embassies are a must.

Skimming through the posts above, I see we have a few calculators here. It was never my interest or strength and in the long run I wouldn't care less about a lost shield or coin here and there, just as long as we get 5 cities that doesn't overlap and can grow freely.

And remember...http://bryanhead1.home.comcast.net/needpics.gif.Good Luck all.:)

ROFL! :rotfl:
Game wasn't started yet ;)

P.S. They definitely have to add this smile for "Stories and Tales" forum :mischief:

LMAO Ansar :lol: :rotfl:

@Smart- Exactly what I said in the Smiley Addition Suggestion thread :lol: .

Anasar become infected with our idiocy :lol:

@Own: I have compressed this smile to 10KB, maybe it will be available soon :devil:

Ooh, goodie. I love that smilie.

Idiocy spreads like the ebola. AnsarKing got a dose or two of it :D .

I felt generous and found some food for us:

Somehwere in the middle of the WM:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Gandhi-1.jpg

A bit north:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Gandhi-2.jpg

And a bit south:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Gandhi-3.jpg

Make your pick :)

#3 Looks good with all the hills for production. #2's gold looks tasty too. I'd say #3.

Cows on #2 and #3 aren't on river? I'd vote for #1. We can use forest for early chops, and wheat on river will help us to grow faster

The cows aren't on the river, but they can be immediately irrigated. My first pick would be #3, then #1.

I like them all. 1 and 3 are potential powerhouses.

1 for the forests, that can be quite useful.
2 for what seems like a long river and the goldhill.
3 for letting us build a curragh.

I'll wait to see what zerksees says before I cast my vote.

Gozpel, you're right about the curraghs. That's the best start. My vote.

I'm actually leaning towards 3 too, just because of the dingies. Still I want zerksees input as he plays second.

Another good thing with 3 is that we have the back against the water, still it's always a gamble because we don't know what land there is around us. It might be tight, but hopefully there's enough land for 5 cities. :)

If it's tight, we can always relocate cities later, but that's a difficult approach as we have to do some warfare for that.

What do we do for research? Writing is always good, but if we choose that or whatever, do we want min or max research?

Min on writing sounds good. I've never played a serious 5CC before, is early conquest a good idea?

is early conquest a good idea

I doubt it :)

The AI will have hordes of stuff and will over-run us. The best plan is to be humble and nice and build up our cities and explore as much as possible in the beginning to get those twofers. Find luxes and resources and grab them if we can, they are very important for trading. Sometimes I've traded away my only iron to get a tech or two, the same with luxes and other resources.

Patience is a good thing :)

India starts with Alphabet, and so we have good chances to get GL. Lets do min research on Writing, and then max on Literature. Do we have are any chances for philo on deity pangaea? :rolleyes:

When I recall that India starts with Alphabet, I changed my choise to #3 - early contacts will help alot, especially if we are going for Glib.

GL isn't needed. Without any money, just contacts and trading can keep us up in tech.

I haven't done 5CC before, but I think that we will not have enough breakers early with only 5 cities to do self-research and be able to trade anything. Wouldn't be better to build GL, and start researching only when we will be in republic with market/libs, and good infrastructure :hmm:

Although the GLib is great, it's pretty hard to get it when we won't have any pre-builds. Of course we will have other wonders early, but the AI is quick to grab them and we can sit there with 400 shields for a barracks :lol: We won't even have a FP to fall back on.

But we can see how it goes and if it's possible to build it.

Most people seem to be in favor for No3, so I get this going soon and if zerksees doesn't show up when I post, we can change the roster.

I'll play 20 turns, then we go 10 each.

Since this is a 5CC I say #3 is best. There is really good shield production potential with all those hills, access to the sea (without too many tiles lost to the sea) will help with trading early and help keep trading routes open later during wars, not to mention speed up our ability to meet the AI.

Since we only need four settlers, the settler production isn't that important and irrigating the cow at the start should be all we need to do.

How many AI? I assume seven. Research is going to be really fast. Are scientific great leaders on? If they are not then we have a chance at the GL. Though I am not sure it is worth it since it's not like we can give it away and then take it back later. In reality I think taking it from someone after we get chivalry (and maybe they have steam power) might be a better bet (think war elephant SOD).

Also, I don't know if you guys read the emails or come to the forum. I have a tendency to submit a post then change it two minutes later because I just thought of something else, so what is on the email might not match what is on the forum. This time I posted twice.

I don't like GL. I've never liked it really. It's so much funner and effective to trade.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Goz11-3000BC.SAV

Not much to say, except we got 2 cows! The worker irrigated the first and mined the second. Later when we've mined the hills around Delhi, we might have to irrigate the other one as well.

Our first warrior Bubba scouted E and found a wheat, which made me swap the warrior-build to another settler. He also found furs and ivory, the latter out of reach for us.

3250BC we meet France, they are up 3 techs and no trades available.

Bombay is founded 3150BC. After the worker, please build a temple with help of a chop.

I built a curragh and another warrior, current build is settler to grab those furs. I want him on the red dot, so we don't overlap. French already grabbed the ivory.

The curragh is following the coast NE and the warrior have to scout the southern area.

It looks like we have room for our cities :) But we need to get those settlers our fairly quickly, I don't want France to mess up our plans.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Goz11-3000bc.jpg

Lookin good. Was mining the hills a typo or something? Why would we do that?

The red dot is on a BG, but it can't be helped. The city will have enough production and have some forests for chopping.

Notice the perfect spot N of Delhi is on a game. :( We need to scout that area soon too, so after the settler train another warrior.

gozpel -> Just played
zerksees -> UP
Smart -> soon
Own
Mathias

Lookin good. Was mining the hills a typo or something? Why would we do that?

Huh? Don't you mine hills in your games?

Yes, but not in despotism, I prefer roading everything. I don't mine anything before a non despotic gov, in which then I irrigate most grasslands for quick size 12 cities, then I mine to get max production.

You're probably right, just explaining my logic.

Mined hills gives 2 shields in despotism, but with slow workers it will take an eternity. We won't get Republic soon and with few cities we will have to improve what we got.

That is when we have more workers, so until then roading is my way too :) Most of the time I have a couple of workers that do nothing but connect towns and stuff, while others follow and do the mines and irrigation or whatever.

Ok, I misinterpreted the entire thing. I thought it meant next mine the hills. I understand now.

I have the game - will play tonight if someone tells me the barb setting?

7 rivals and no barbs. No SGL's either.

Good luck guys! :)
*subscribed*

preflight - looks good

2950 BC - exploring

IBT nothing

2900 BC - exploring

IBT nothing

2850 BC - met Korea. They have bronze working, masonry, pottery, the wheel and warrior code. they will trade pottery for 53 gold and 3 gpt, but I pass for now. I am thinking warrior code as a stepping stone to monarchy. MM Bombay to get one extra shield

IBT nothing

2800 BC - MM Dehli to get settler in one. Lux at 50% because Dehli is szie 4.

IBT Dehli: settler -> warrior, Bombay: worker->temple, spot a red warrior

2750 BC - Meet Inca, same 5 techs as Korea and France. They were spotted near Korea in the northwestern path of exploration. Lux to 10%. Curragh spots green border. Settler headed to red dot.

IBT - nothing

2710 BC - worker chop starts. Chose 1 SW of Bombay to get the forest off our door. Meet Japan. They do not have pottery. Assume this can't last long. buy pottery for 69 gold and 2gpt. Trade it along with 2 gpt and 21 gold to Korea for warrior code.

IBT - nothing

2670 BC - meet Sumer. Nothing to trade. Oops they have mysticism and others do not. We have nothing to trade them. They must have just got it this turn since Japan has it now also. I hope this doesn't cost us.

IBT - Dehli: warrior->settler (change to whatever you like)

2630 BC - found silk bonus tile to south while exploring

IBT nothing

2590 BC - another silk appears down south.

IBT nothing

2550 BC - work chop is done, worker moves to grassland wheat. incense found to the north, near spot with deer.

Other notes:
- Also forgot to mention that Dehli worker finished mine, then went to BG east of Bombay to start mining/roading that tile.
- Sorry I couldn't read the first time, I found all the answers to my questions about game settings up above.
- Would we not want France to build the GL for us? Somehow we need to discuss how we might make this happen.
- Once settlers for cities four and five are out we need some workers ASAP.
- Hope I did not totally blow it by trading techs the way I did, versus building embassies or better trades.

I have no idea where the other two cities should go, though somewhere in the south near the two silks is one place, and in the north near that deer and now incense is a possible location.

Not too shoddy. :)

The gpt deals doesn't really hurt us, since we have 20 turns to Writing anyways. But WC? Come on, we need to know where the resources are so any deals with BW and the Wheel would've taken us to that.

But still I'm not unhappy. If a neighbour decide to do something silly, we can at least build archers now. We are NOT going for Monarchy btw, we're going to be Republic, nothing else matters.

We're in a dilemma here, concerning city placements.

I can find one good spot, on another BG mind you :lol: 1SW and 3S from Delhi. This will be another sea town and we'll lose productivity. Still it's good enough because of the hills.

I really wanted a town N of Delhi, but the location of the deer makes that spot pretty useless. If I could have my mind on this, I would send a settler to the hills 1NW of the warrior, just to grab those silks. To have 2 luxes to trade may be worth its while. Corruption in that town can be sorted out with a courthouse later.

I want those luxes and don't care about corruption at this stage. We need leverage for trading. So I want next settler to go straight there. And the last settler to the spot south of Delhi.

Agree or disagree now. :)

Just one point for you that wonders about a FP. We can NEVER have more than 5 cities, so no quick taking more towns just to make us build the FP and the same goes for armies. We will only have one, for the rest of times. Well, if we get a leader that is.

And I noticed now, that we have another settler in 3 turns. Excellent, send him to the silks. (well, if not the whole team objects)

The worker NNW of Delhi should be scheduled to just connect cities after he finished his task, we will get enough workers soon to improve stuff.

Thinking about city placements and corruption, in worse case we can relocate the Palace to Madras later. Delhi has no improvement yet, all we have to do is to get Madras up to pop and the other towns low, plus a few military in that town and we can jump. It would take out the corruption factor quite well.

What do you think?

To be brief, I'll just say that I totally agree with city placement and palace jump.

I better make a graphic explanation:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/goz11dots.jpg

Later when we jump Palace to Madras, even the calcualtors on this team should be happy?

To be brief, I'll just say that I totally agree with city placement and palace jump.

Thank you, Mathias. Too bad we'll get too much waters to work on, but this is the lands we're given. :)

The corruption looked bad, but the lux and hills make up for it. If we only have five powerhouses, why would we abandon one to make another slightly more effective? How about just buidling a palace?

Would we not want France to build the GL for us?
On pangaea it doesn't matter - we could sign RoP with our neighbours, and move SoD to the target civilization.

I have no idea where the other two cities should go, though somewhere in the south near the two silks is one place, and in the north near that deer and now incense is a possible location.
City near silks will get high corruption and waste (45%), better is to build it on coast, using OCP (22% corruption). Other city will be NW from the deer to get incense.

Dotmap:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Goz11_dotmap1.jpg

ooh, I smell incense to the north. I can't decide now.

I saw only page 3 when wrote the post. Jumping the palace is bad idea, better is to build city on incense ;)

I really wanted a town N of Delhi, but the location of the deer makes that spot pretty useless.
We can irrigate those plains, watch to the river near incense hill ;)

I think he meant there's no practical way to get it coastal.

If we go with gozpel's picks we can overcome the corruption with a courthouse (I have not done the math to see how close to 22% it could get), and have an extra silk to trade - could be big.

If we go with Smart's city placement, we have the option to make clearing out the land to our southwest our first conquest, as long as France doesn't get it. Maybe we could put the cities down their ourselves and give them to someone else? Also, this gives us more mountain tiles, increasing our chances for saltpeter, which could be way more important than an extra lux to trade.

I lean toward Smart's pick though only by a little bit.

No monarchy? It is only a one turn anarchy since we are religious. We could go to republic later. Oh well I guess my 5CC inexperience showing through here.

I was on the fence about WC, but could not think of a compelling reason to get the others. I doubt I could have pulled off the same trades for the wheel, and since we don't need horses I did not think it that important. Next time I'll get some opinions. (Now I am realizing if we had horses we could trade them.) I am sure I could have traded for BW instead, wasn't thinking about iron working yet - my bad for sure. I did save the game before the trades if anyone is interested to try other trades. Next time I'll get some opinions.

Also I need your opinion about boating through AI territory during this phase. Is it something you do? I know it subtracts from an AI's attitude toward you, but I did it in Japan territory anyway in the name of exploration. There are still two more AI to meet.

If we take the GL, will we have to abandon one of our cities if we want to keep it for a turn? How does this fit into your definition of 5CC?

If a city deposes and pedges allegiance to us, can we accept it then raze it as soon as the IBT is over?

The last question depends on whether it's relaxed 5CC or not. Relaxed means at the end of a turn you can't have more than five cities, stressed 5CC means no more than five cities ever.

We could colonize the silks, but it probably wouldn't last long. I'd like to go north. Maybe we can get a bunch of warriors to surround it, preventing it from being settled on.

I took a peak, and we'll definately get the incense, as the french town's first cultural expansion won't get the incense, the second will, but our cities first will overrule it. I'm all for north. That 5th city will take too long to develop. Plains aren't that bad really, and we shouldn't trade our luxes anyway (a lux usually means one or two less clowns per AI city, not good). We can buy other luxes cheap for gpt anyway cause we're so small.

Edit: Smart, you're up

The last question depends on whether it's relaxed 5CC or not.
We can NEVER have more than 5 cities, so no quick taking more towns just to make us build the FP and the same goes for armies.
;)


If we are going to abandon one city after capturing GL, we can build it on silks, and then resettle it in the first ring with less corruption :rolleyes:

Edit: I got it, will play after completing turnset in SM2

we shouldn't trade our luxes anyway
There are two silks down south so one to keep and one to trade. There is only one incense right?

And someone who crunches the numbers could tell - there is a chance that trading a lux and increasing the lux slider to offset might be profitable, since we will be so small compared to the other AI. If this were the case then we might have two lux to trade, though I still lean toward Smart's pick.

gozpel - you know my opinion but I will go along with whatever you decide. In either case our next settler should go to one or the other.

I meant because it makes the AI more powerful. A lux to the AI might get us 20 gpt, but won't make up for the tons more production, growth, and gold the AI gets from being able to fire some clowns.

Also I need your opinion about boating through AI territory during this phase. Is it something you do? I know it subtracts from an AI's attitude toward you
When I start with alphabet I usually travel through AI territory to get contacts with others. Attitude will restore back, when you leave AI's territory.

I meant because it makes the AI more powerful. A lux to the AI might get us 20 gpt, but won't make up for the tons more production, growth, and gold the AI gets from being able to fire some clowns.
OK I am a little slow but I get it now. I typically would not want to trade those things with the #1 or #2 AI, as it could speed up a runaway AI.

But, trading a lux to a #4 AI for important techs or resources is hard to ignore. If that production is directed at another AI then that effect is negated. Maybe #4 can bear the brunt of #1 while we are taking cities from#1.

Have you considered that these types of trades can figure into the decision process on who will be attacked next? Could reduce the AI extortion rate and the number of wars we involuntarily enter.

Good point. But North is still a better city spot IMO.

Also, a cool trick in XCC's you can do is trade a lux (0 extra) for two luxes and maybe some more.

If we choose to build north and keep palace in Delhi, then 1N or 1NW of Smart's dot may be better, depending on what is within reach. This does put the game out of the immediately available tiles, but I'd rather not have coast tiles in a non-coastal city. Corruption difference is 33% vs 31%.

I am still in favor of gozpel's placement, with palace jump to Madras.

I'm fine with the spot north, less corruption is never bad. The palace-jump wouldn't be hard to make and of course we would've replaced Delhi right away. It was only a thought. :)

Luxes and resources are vital for us to keep up in techs, so if we happen to have horses and/or iron to throw in when we deal, it will save us heaps. For happiness, we'll build temples and cathedrals, even colloseums to keep the people in check.

One thing with scouting is to find future resources later, that's why we must bust all fog, everywhere, even if we trespass here and there. Usually the AI just kick us out and leave it with that. I try to use high level terrain when I enter AI territory, just to see as many tiles as possible.

When we have embassies, ROP helps too.

For palace jump, Delhi can complete 3 settlers in 16 turns. All we'd have to do is build a worker out of Bombay after the temple, then keep it as size 1 for a few turns. That, and not build a worker in Madras.

Palace jump :hmm:
I'm going to play now, and I must know what to do with the next settler. We will have three luxes anyway, but if we will jump palace we will lose excellent location for our capital (it will be replaced with city with rank=4, which means high corruption), and some time while new city will grow.
We can trade lux for tech or something, and up lux slider only for 20 turns. If we will move out capital, it will be forever...

Btw, three members of team are for going north :mischief:

Just to not make things harder than they should be, don't worry about the jump. Grab the N spot, where it fits best and then we build another city S of Delhi.

Just to clarify my thoughts about the jump. Bombay would be smack dab in the middle of our towns, IF we wanted a town by the silks and Delhi being rebuilt after the jump.

Not to worry now anyways, go grab the northern spot and we sort out luxes and stuff later. :)

Opposed to building north: zero.
Opposed to building south: at least one.

Well, what are you waiting for? :)

I have been talking about Bombay, haven't I? Well, I'm an idiot.

I meant Madras of course :blush:

If we will build town on N spot, it will get the same corruption after jump to Madras, as silks town before, which will make the jump useless ;)
Ok, playing now...

I wouldn't want to waste all the infra on a palace jump.

Pre-turn
Looks good, press enter.

Turn 1
Worker irrigated wheat. Warrior spots french borders near incense!

Turn 2
Moving Curragh and warriors...

Turn 3
Dehli builds settler, starts warrior.
Lux slider to 10%

Turn 4
All civilizations have writing now.
Curragh meet Xerxes, nothing to trade... We don't know only one civilization.

Turn 5
Worker roads wheat.
Move settler NW from my first dot, in that location we will have one more hill, and no coastal tiles
Saw french settler pair NW from settler :eek:. If they will build town there we will lose the incense...

IT
Dehli: Warrior >> Settler

Turn 6
Settler pair was moved! :woohoo:
Bangalore was founded, building Temple.
Move worker to Gold.

IT
Persians are in war with somebody: I saw that persian warrior was died on attack (we haven't barbs ;)).
Bombay: Settler >> Worker.

Turn 7
Worker builds road on gold.
Dehli and bombay have grown, but I don't up lux rate because of MP in Dehli.

Turn 8
Move worker S from wheat to BG.

Turn 9
Worker roads BG. Warrior was fortified on place for the next town

IT
Madras: Worker >> rax (need the chop)

Turn 10
Move worker N to furs.
Dehli will build settler on the next turn, found the next town where warrior is fortitied.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/goz11_2150BC.JPG

Roster
gozpel
zerksees
Smart
Own - :bump: :crazyeye:
Mathias - on deck


The save:        Goz11_2150_BC.SAV (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Goz11_2150_BC.SAV)

Got it. ten characters

Pre-turn- Change Madras to Temple. More valuable than rax.

1. Delhi settler > temple.

2. Bombay worker > granary (2 turn worker factory). Meet Carthage, they don't have writing :) .

5. Found Calcutta. Start on warrior. Delhi grows.

6. Carthage gets writing :( .

7. Delhi temple > granary.

8. Hook up furs. Lux down to 0%

9. Lux up ten.

10. Writing > lit. Can be changed. Extremely important! We can trade Writing to Korea, just waiting as it is good SG ettiquete (sp?).

5CC! Horray!

2. Bombay worker > granary (2 turn worker factory).
It have only 4 extra food. With granary, town need 10 food to growth, and so it will be 3-turn WF.

6. Carthage gets writing
Why you didn't traded it before? :(

1. You're right, I thought we were iro's for a sec.

2. I didn't have writing.

Why granaries?

Writing should be good for at least a couple tier 1 techs I would think.

Dehli don't need a granary. Build it only in Bombay for 3-turn WF.
We can get for Writing one tech and 19 gold from Korea

Sounds good. I'll check it out and play tomorrow afternoon.

I can take us to techparity, it would cost us around 17gpt and most of our gold in hand though. We can get some lose change back, enough I think to get us through 20 turns without going bankrupt.

@Whomp: étiquette ;)

Early temples ... feels rather bold to me. Will keep watching :)

Nice option, gozpel. We can get all techs from Korea for Writing, 16gpt and 60 gold.
Also we could up science slider to 90%, and get Literature in 20 turns with 2gpt loss. AI usually don't like to research Literature early, because it is optional tech, and we may get monopoly on it and sell it around for much better offers...

If we take the GL, will we have to abandon one of our cities if we want to keep it for a turn? How does this fit into your definition of 5CC?
Gozpel, what do you think about it?

I think it's stressed 5CC, mentioned on page one.

Granaries because I had nothing better to build. Grranaries are still good even if not used for worker/settler factories. Raxes were the only other option, and they're useless.

Raxes were the only other option, and they're useless.
If we have horses in our territory, we must build many horsemans and then upgrade them to War Elephants ;)

Btw, I've asked about GL and 5CC, because we must know what city we will abandon (or not :mischief:) and don't build many improvements there.

We don't have to shoot for the GL. I'm against it. Like I said before, I've never really liked it.

Edit:

@Whomp: étiquette


Didn't know what you meant at first :lol: . Second time I've been mistaken for Whomp by you :crazyeye: .

We don't have to shoot for the GL.
I said that we could capture GL, not self-build. :crazyeye:
We can research to Chivlary, turn off research, destroy all that we can, before AI will get rifles. Then capture GL and get all MA techs.

I still don't like the idea. While more worthwhile, razing one of our cities hurts my soul. And we can keep up.

I still don't like the idea. While more worthwhile, razing one of our cities hurts my soul. And we can keep up.

If we sell our soul to the AI :satan: to get techs we might be able to keep up. Besides it does not hurt to have an insurance policy.

Yes the thick one (me) sees the value of barracks now, and I assume we should be finishing them as soon as the horses get hooked up. I am pretty sure they will upgrade but how would you actually upgrade a horseman to war elephant? Not much would transfer over I guess. We just press shift-U and poof they all upgrade but how would that happen in real life? Sell of the horse and buy an elephant?

If gozpel and mathias go along with this, I would pick the city we haven't built yet as it appears it would be immune to the culture flip.

Sell of the horse and buy an elephant?
It is one of the many idiocy in C3C :crazyeye:
Btw, in COTM-15 this wonderfull upgrade was disabled on predator level :p

Nice option, gozpel. We can get all techs from Korea for Writing, 16gpt and 60 gold.

We can get 8 techs if we buy CoL from Sumeria, I think it was. I'm not 100% and would be happy to make the deals if Mathias hasn't played yet.

The GLib could be built anywhere and it's too early to start planning warfare for something we know nothing about. :) I rather build up what we have for now and worry about conquests and stuff later.

Barracks are a better choice atm than granaries and even a harbor somewhere will be useful soon enough.

When I opened the save, I knew exactly what Gozpel had in mind, even though I did not see his last post before I began. Here's how the trading went:

First, 17gpt + 85 gold to Sumeria for Code of Laws.
We need more gold to get Map Making, so CoL to Inca for The Wheel + 89 gold. Korea does not have Horseback Riding
CoL + 69 gold to France for MM
Writing to Korea for Bronze Working + 19 gold. They do have Iron Working.
MM to Carthage for Masonry + Mysticism + 17 gold. Four civs have Mathematics, but we won't be able to trade for it. Korea has monopoly on Polythiesm.
CoL to Japan for HR + 25 gold. Even with three techs to trade, we cannot get Poly from Korea.
CoL to Carthage for IW + 3 gold

Net 8 techs for 17 gpt + 1 gold. We are forced to continue with minimal research. Out of curiosity, after completing my turnset, I reloaded the 1750 save and paid the higher price to get MM from Japan, then Math from France. Four techs + 149 gold + 2gpt was still not quite enough to get Poly from Korea.

Anyway, on with the turnchat.

1750 BC (0)
Trades as above, switch Delhi to Barracks.
We have Iron north of Bombay, and horses west of Calcutta. The horses are not in any city radius, but will be in our territory once Madras and Calcutta have both expanded.

IT: Bangalore Temple >> Worker
France begin SoZ, Korea begin ToA

1725 BC (1)
Korea has trade Polytheism to Sumeria and Inca for all known techs
MM Bombay to complete Granary before growth, at a cost of 10 gold and 1 turn to growth.

IT: Korea begin Great Lighthouse

1700 BC (2)
Carthage, Korea and Sumeria have Philosophy. Carthage in Anarchy, Korea has the gold.

IT: Delhi Rax >> Archer (10 spt)
Sumeria completes Pyramids, begins ToA
Cascade... France completes Oracle

1675 BC (3)
Carthage in Republic

IT: Madras Temple >> Harbor (Forest chop will complete next turn)
More cascade... nothing else complete

1650 BC (4)
IT: Delhi Archer >> Archer
Calcutta Worker >> Temple

1625 BC (5)
IT: Bombay Granary >> Worker
Bangalore Worker >> umm... Rax?
Persia begin SoZ

1600 BC (6)
IT: Delhi Archer >> Archer

1575 BC (7)
IT: Bombay Worker >> Worker

1550 BC (8)
IT: Delhi Archer >> Harbor or Granary @ 12 spt

1525 BC (9)
Forest chop near Calcutta reveals BG

1500 BC (10)
Iron and Incence both connected in 4 turns. Horses connected in as little as 10 turns with expansion of Calcutta.

A Japanese Galley is heading south. Hopefully he settles near the silks, and not too close to the horses.

Very nice spots for settling cities.:goodjob: Also, this is the first time I have seen someone do OCP in a SG.:rolleyes:

In XCC games OCP is the best variant, because you will have only few cities, and they must use all available terrain. Btw, we have used OCP in SM2 SG too ;)

Good job :) The windows to grab techs like this is very short and I'm glad we took the opportunity.

Now we just lay low and continue to improve our lands.

I've got it.

For what it's worth, we could have got Poly from Korea. If I had taken Masonry from Inca, I would have known who did and didn't have Mathematics. From that point, it would have been easy to make the right trades. Korea was willing to give up Poly for 4 techs + 151 gold + 2 gpt. Would have pulled in 9 techs and 4 gold for 8 gpt.

Yep Mathias, I noticed that too, but we don't have the luxury to replay. :lol: We do as good as we can and live with it.

Pre-turn - No changes, everything look ok.

1475BC - Bombay worker -> barracks.

1450BC - Korea demands 21g, no problems. It drains our coffers a bit, no more demands for 2 more turns, please.

Inca starts the Lighthouse.

1400BC - Delhi harbor -> worker. We need to get things going.

Iron and incense is connected :bounce: and luxtax goes to zero. We're actually making a couple of gpt now.

We can trade the iron to France, but they only offer 1 tech or a horse/lux deal. No hurry, I've a worker roading our horse already.

1375BC - Sumer completes MoM and lots of civs build all kind of wonders, Carthage starts HG!

Calcutta temple -> barracks.

Japan founds Nagoya near silks.

1350BC - Delhi worker -> slow sword using commerce tiles.

Take the punt and give France iron, 2gpt and 23g for Philo and Maths. No one knows Construction or Currency yet. (if the iron relocate we're done)

1325BC - Sumeria boots our scouting warrior and France Completes SoZ.

Luxtax 10%.

1300BC - Inca completes ToA and Sumeria is now a Monarchy.

1275BC - Sumeria completes HG.

Madras harbor -> barracks.
Bangalore barracks -> horse.

1250BC - Korea finish the Lighthouse.

Bombay barracks -> horse.

2 workers will start chopping next turn, we also need to chop the deer by Bangalore.

Construction/Currency is still unknown.

We got back the gpt and I think now is a good time to establish embassies. Alternatively we could try to save up for techs, what do you think? We need both markets and aqueducts, so that might be more important?

Hopefully I didn't kill the game by trading the iron, that's one of the stupid things that can ruin a game. But no guts, no glory.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/goz11-1250bc.jpg

Roster:

gozpel -> Just played
zerksees -> UP
Smart -> On deck
Own
Mathias

If we are sticking with no guts no glory I say we try to get currency first. Construction may be part of the deal. Then embassies, starting with France. Should the others choose war, they would probably acknowledge our envoy before any large force would reach us. Don't get me wrong I do not want any wars now but since the risk is low enough we could hold off a little while.

If there is nothing else to build I will build horsemen. How many workers do we want?

At least 12 workers total. I'd probably build 15 myself. What happened to Bombay as a worker factory?

What happened to Bombay as a worker factory?

Good question. I forgot :wallbash: 15 workers sounds good.

I like markets too, so try to work on Currency first. Might be possible if enough AI's learn it and we connect the second fur.

I dropped two workers and the rest horsemen. Madras and Calcutta completed barracks.

The land to our south was filled by France though Japan still sending a sword/settler through.

Workers busy building roads and mines, and irrigating up north. I roaded some of the forest tiles we were working to try and increase gold.

I tried very hard to get some trades but could not find anything I thought was suitable. There was a time when I could get was literature but the buyers only had polytheism, and I thought 8gpt and 37 gold for those techs was not money well spent.

Most of them now have construction, republic, and currency. I was undecided about literature and let it go at 10%.

I explored quite a bit and got kicked out quite a bit.

Calcutta is building a harbor but that can be changed.

I am not sure we should be building these horsemen yet as our economy is a little too weak to support them.

No messages about wonder completions though most of them are working on the Great Wall, the Great Library

We can set up embassy with France for 32 gold - but I held off since gold is at such a premium at the moment.

Other Highlights:

1150 BC - Korea will sell us literature for 8gpt + 37 gold. I think I can trade it for polytheism. I am not convinced this is a good deal and pass on it. I want construction but the lagging AIs only have polytheism.

1125 BC - Tokugawa demands 22 gold which we pay

1050 BC - Furs are hooked up. I should have sent another worker there sooner. They are not helping me get any techs.

1000 BC - Finally currency is completed by the AI and I suspect it has been traded around because five of them have it. We need more gold to get that first tech to trade around. Two of them are behind so if we can buy one tech we can probably get a few more.

I should have tried to sell those furs for gpt at 1050 BC. I am afraid what happened on the IBT before 1000BC wiped out any gpt our customers may have had.

Wish I had better news to report.

Pre-turn
MM every city, we are making now 13 gpt, instead of 9.
All civilizations are in MA, except Korea and Japan. Korea haven't Currency, Japan - Currency and Construction.
Buy Currency from Carthage for Furs, 11 gpt and 101 gold
I think that Korea is researching currency, because they will not give any tech for it. Sell Currency and 4 gpt to Japan for Polytheism, Literature and 8 gold.
We are losing 2 gpt now. If we will set lux rate to 0%, we will make 3 gpt. Buy Wines for currency and 4 gpt from Korea.
We have got 3 techs and luxury for 14 gpt and 109 gold. Is it a good trade? :rolleyes:

Bombay and Dehly are two cities with high population, so I've changed production to markets there - luxed will help alot.

IBT
Sumerians are building Sun Tzu's.

Turn 1
Move two workers and chop for marketplace in Delhi.

IBT
Inca and Persia booted our scouting warriors.
French are building The GLib.
Sumarians completed The GW and all civs were cascaded to GL and Sun Tzu.

Turn 2
Disband two warriors-scouts to lower unit support cost - they anyway will not come to our core soon...
Chop market in Bombay too...

IBT
Xerxes demands 3 gold. To give or not to give? :lol:

Turn 3
Chop near Delhi reveals a BG - workers mine it

Turn 4
Chop goes to Bombay, move workers to Gold and mine it.

IBT
Next demand goes to Carthage - 1 gold. Two workers are mining incense hill.

Turn 5
:sleep:

IBT
WTF, as soon as I get gold it should be demanded :mad:. Gave two coins to Inca.

Turn 6
Our iron deal with France was ended, Delhi have produced marketplace. We are making +7 gpt now.
Second chop near Delhi reveals BG too! Use workers to mine it.

Turn 7
:sleep:

Turn 8
:sleep:

Turn 9
MM Delhi for 10spt - Horsemans @ 3 turns.
Start another chop near Bombay. Market will be done in two turns with chop.
Bombay have grown to size 8 and is about to riot. Hire one scientist (until marker will be built) and put science to zero - 16 gpt income.

Turn 10
Calcutta produced harbor, MM it for horseman in 5 turns.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/goz11_750BC.JPG


Save: Goz11sm_750_BC.SAV (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Goz11sm_750_BC.SAV)

I have to run, so I didn't have time to read the turnlog, but from the pic we need more irrigation.

@ Own: No, you just need to get out of Despotism.;)

Irrigation? Maybe only second cow need it :lol:

Oh, my mistake, but instead we should have roaded more then irrigated. One more excess food is more valuable than one more shields (usually, unless it's from 9 to 10 when producing horsemen).

Now I've read the log, and the demands call for more military (not just to avoid demands but to avoid attacks) which you were building, good job.

I think that Korea is researching currency, because they will not give any tech for it

I noticed that too, but didn't want to butt in and tell you hi and ho. :) To get those techs (and a lux) for less than 400g is quite comfortable.

I actually got Republic, when I traded in a test, but it cost us everything we had plus some. We can't grow without luxes, which I gave to Japan and included horses in the deal with Currency. Not worth it.

At a stage like this when we have poor commerce, roads are first option! We need one worker roading those hills around Delhi now.

Good call on disbanding warriors if they had no where to go. Otherwise we need to know every tile on this continent. But paying upkeep for useless units aren't in my book.

We can get rid of some more warriors I think, (our MP's) if the cost for units gets high.

Geez, we can get Republic from France for iron? Was this available for some time?

Get it NOW!

Are we scaredy cats? I didn't think so :lol:

We can also get Construction for horses and 13gpt and some gold from (erh? Sumeria, Inca?) I'm not fond of this deal though, let's get a new Gov first and then decide.

Again, it's a gamble to trade iron, but we have everything to gain and everything to lose here. All those slimies are in the next era already, we can't wait.

Opinions?

we can get Republic from France for iron? Was this available for some time?
Our iron deal with France was ended in turn 6, but I haven't checked it yet.
If we will switch to Republic we will gain 7 coins and 3 shields every turn. Not too much, we must build markets/libs in our cities to see the difference. Also if we will make horsemans too fast we will go inso negative gpt soon, because of high unit support cost in republic.
We can trade iron now, because we are building only horsemans, but revolt later, after completing marketplaces in all our cities. At least wait ten turns, when my gpt deals will expire.

We can also get Construction for horses and 13gpt and some gold
No, we need horses for horseman production now. We can trade it only when we will ready to upgrade to War Elephants

Seriously, who are we attacking soon?

And your calcutations are way wrong, as long as somebody strives for aqueducts. I want 5 12-pop cities, how can we get that?

N

Nice skimming. (forum-hangup)

We want another government badly, calculate Mon if that's better?

Anything but Despotism.

And what's the hurry to build units?

We're not under threat, the perfect time toi build infra. So get Construction and build aqueducts, then we can talk.

If we go that way, granary in the capitol wouldn't hurt.

It's not my calculations, CivAssist II (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=118540) can show result of goverment switch. But it could be done manually :)

We could switch to Repuclic and start building markets and aqueducts now. But our first strike should be before target civ will get gunpower :rolleyes:

Pre-turn
MM every city, we are making now 13 gpt, instead of 9.

Doh! Sorry I missed this. :blush: The xtra gpt was what was needed to start the ball rolling :goodjob:

[
We have got 3 techs and luxury for 14 gpt and 109 gold. Is it a good trade? :rolleyes:

Uh - yeah

Switching to Republic will give us a net gain of 7 gold per turn, but only if we stop building horses. Our base commerce will increase from 66 to 108, while our military support costs will increase from 9 to 40 gpt. Each new unit will cost an additional 2 gpt. We definitely need to be building infrastructure.

Delhi and Bombay are on river, so we could produce only horses there after completing marketplace in Bombay. Switch all other cities to markets and then to aqueducts. After building markets in all cities we will get 41 gpt in republic = 20 horses. In addition income will be increased after irrigating grassland tiles and growth to size 12 in Delhi and Bombay - it is around 20 gpt more.

Let Delhi and Bombay produce military -two horses per three turns, when other cities will produce infra - marketplace and then aqueduct.

:bump: Who is up :hmm: Sure, Own :crazyeye:

Blah! Finally Own7 is over, so now all 5 other SG rounds trample me to death. Sigh, got it.

Playing now. Agenda is roads, republic, markets. No more mining, we have plenty of that.

Pre-turn- Change all cities building horses to lib’s or markets. Shift ponies around to disband some warriors. MM to get income from 14 GPT to 19 GPT. Buy republic and Ivory, and 4 gold from France for Iron and 5 gpt. No, it won’t help us now, but it may later, and iron was more valuable than rep, so it seemed wasteful not to do it. Revolt!


Anarchy

Restored, and income is now 29 gpt. Glad I got ivory, it’s really helping now. Lux up 10%, will go down next turn with a market in Bombay.

Bombay Market > worker. Lux down to 0%.

Bombay worker > worker. Rehire scientist, didn’t lose a research turn.

Workers start irrigation path to Calcutta and Madras.

Bombay worker > lib. Fire scientist, Delhi grew and was about to riot so I hired one there.

Not much

Delhi lib > worker.

Delhi worker > granary. Rehire scientist.
10. Nothing much, but some dark greenies are coming in to our territory, not sure what they’re doing, doesn’t look like a sneak attack, someone should check the save to make sure. Important: We have our furs back to trade.

Heres a pic, btw sorry about the bullets, but when I transferred the turnlog from word to CFC, the #'s showed up as bullets.

:bump: ? I checked, and I waited two days!

I think Mathias is away, he was skipped here and in SM2. This make gozpel - UP

I got it and have to read up. I skimmed through and it looks ok though.

We had some nasty bushfires (and still have) around here and our friends almost lost their house. We had to evacuate them for two days and they stayed at our house, therefore I've been quite unavailable.

That sounds awful. Take your time.

Pre-turn - Looking good, remove scientist in Delhi for faster growth and let Calcutta citizen work the mined grass to get the market a turn earlier.

The wines-deal with Korea is up for renewal, the cost go up from 4gpt to 7gpt and some change. But we can't afford to lose the lux.

Buy Construction and 6g from Persia for furs and 10gpt. Start research on Mono at 50% and -15gpt, due in 16t atm, our upcoming markets will make up for the loss soon.

Everyone but Japan (only Feudalism) knows the first 3 techs, but no deals possible.

We have 200g and some, so I decide to establish embassies with France and Japan (100g for both). Joan is at war with everyone! :eek: We have 10 turns left on the iron-trade, perhaps we can join the World vs France later?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Joanwars.jpg

Spend 32g to speed up markets further in Bangalore and Calcutta. We still have 133g in the kitty.

530BC - Some civs starts Sistine.

510BC - Persia finish Sun Tsu.

490BC - France starts Knights Templar.

Bombay library -> horse.
Madras market -> aqueduct.
Bangalore market -> library.

Japan has a worker for sale, too bad I can't get it. We need to focus on research.

470BC - Delhi granary -> horse.

Turn up research to 90% for a turn, I will buy Mono next turn.

450BC - Carthage starts KT too.

Calcutta market -> aqueduct.

Buy Mono from Inca for horses and 23gpt. Research Feudalism at 20%.

Swap Delhi and Bombay to cathedrals.

430BC - Nothing.

410BC - 3 civs start Leo's.

390BC - Nothing.

370BC - Sumeria completes Leo's and Inca finish Knights Templar. Then Persia starts Copernicus! :lol:

350BC - Delhi builds cathedral.

I'm not very courteous, so I take the chance and make some deals:

Buy Theology from Carthage for iron and 16gpt and 7g.
Buy Feudalism from Japan for Theology, 15gpt and 3g.
Buy Chivalry and ivory from France for Theology, 20gpt.

I completely drained our economy, but we get back furs from Persia in 10 turns and horses from Inca in 15t. 3 civs don't have Chivalry, can we squeeze it out of someone? With only 5gpt left I have to use ocean-tiles for commerce temporarily.

Korea is cheapest and we get Engineering for Chivalry, 7gpt and 2g.
Sell Engineering to Japan for 12gpt and 4g. They can find Chivalry somewhere else.

Sumeria is also missing knights, but can't/won't pay, they know Invention but we can't get it.

From now on, don't research anything on deficit, we don't want to lose buildings and stuff through demands. If we get there, just use a scientist and/or work rivers and coastal tiles. But our economy should pick up in a few turns when we got aqueducts done.

Start our first Jumbo in Delhi! :bounce:

Sorry for making the deals, but I really wanted Chivalry. We also got Engineering by a bit of luck. :) If we have to build units, we have a 70 shield one that won't drain our economy too quickly.

Current economy at zero research on Invention: 11g in the kitty and 10gpt.

Do we want to know where Gunpowder is located first or do we want unis?

I was thinking we shouldn't trade any resources (or recieve any) because of all the war, who knows what could happen. But we're brave. We must take risks to win.

Jumbos :dance: . What do you mean gunpowder or units?

unis - Universities :) Should we research towards Gunpowder or Education?

Let the AI fight with the help of our resources and someone will get hurt and start to fall behind. Of course, this usually gives someone else the upper hand and they can become a monster. But we can worry about that later. Now we can't fall behind too much and that's mainly why I made the deals.

Next player should just concentrate on building infra. Also check when buildings are almost finished and use ocean-tiles instead of wasting shields. I put us in a bit of a dilemma, so we will need every coin we can get.

Ok I thought unis was a typo for units. Unis by all means. i don't care about the salt location. The reason for the resources is if the trade line is cutoff, we're in for a severe rep hit.

Edit: Looked at the save, and Delhi needs something to build, so education definately. Bangalore is building a lib, but I think it should be a duct. We won't be researching for a while, and flip risk is very low.

Edit2: It seems we need more irrigation. Any tile that can be irrigated should be irrigated, we need more growth. With all our workers we can remine stuff later.

I am guessing jumbos are war elephants

I think I am next?

Without much thinking I say universities are good.

Yes, you're UP zerksees. :)

I agree on unis, we have to do research now and again just to lower the price on techs. Like I did with Mono, max possible for a couple of turns saves a lot.

Since we are short on gold I made it my agenda to increase gold.

With all these new techs, I switched size 6 Bangalore to aqueduct on pre-flight.

IBT - France and Japan make peace. Bombay: cathedral -> war elephant

330 BC - We now have 21 gold. Persia has 2579. Sumer won't take 10 gpt + chivalry for invention. MM to increase gold at cost of a shield in Dehli and Bombay. Does not affect turns to complete.

IBT - Japan and Sumer have chivalry, we have no techs to sell, and they all have invention.

310 BC - Interrupt a few mining workers to get them irrigating. We need to expand city size to get more gold

IBT - France no longer has horses to trade. I am puzzled by this as I cannot figure out who bought them.

290 BC - We have 45 gold.

IBT - Dehli up to size 11, netting more gold

270 BC - 57 gold. MM Madras to make 5 shields and finish aqueduct in 1, MM Calcutta to make 8 shields and finish aqueduct in 2, MM Dehli to grow in 3.

IBT - Madras and Bangalore finish aqueducts and start cathedrals.

250 BC - 76 gold. Keeping workers busy on ways to increase population and gold.

IBT - Sumer and France make peace. Dehli WE -> WE, Calcutta aqueduct -> cathedral, the people offer to expand our palace, so the front facing is added.

230 BC - 93 gold. Our free unit count is up to 13.
MM Bombay, Madras, Bangalore and Dehli to increase food

IBT - Bombay WE -> WE. Korea finished Leo's

210 BC - 128 gold. Put a tax collector in Dehli. MM Calcutta to 3 food.

IBT - Persia completes Copernicus and starts Smiths
Bottom falls out slightly. Apparently one of our luxury trades ended and the people are unhappy. I had just looked at the cities in 210 BC and they were fine. Dehli and Bombay get anarchy - I saved the other three using tax collectors.

190 BC - 193 gold. There are no luxes to buy! France is falling apart, and Persia is our new neighbor in Lyons. Experiment between 10% lux and specialists. Decide the extra 5 gpt from specialists not worth the food lost in four cities. Set lux at 10%

IBT - nothing

170 BC - We have 239 gold and +46 gpt.


I tried my best guys - sorry about the mishap. I think when France lost Lyons we lost our ivory trade with them.

In the unlikely event Lyons flips to us we should raze it because then I think those two ivories would come under our control.

I contemplated disbanding 4 hit point horsemen for each 5 hit point war elephant but then decided I would let the group decide on that.

Change cathedral builds if you like, but my thought is they reduce dependence on lux trade.

I would suggest maximizing population growth in the cities where it is needed. You might consider joining a worker or two. Once a city makes it to size 12 then optimize it for gold or production capacity.

I guess I'm up... Check the save - we might research Printing Press at minimum or using one scientist. We could get monopoly on it easy, why we wasted two turnsets on zero research?
I would suggest maximizing population growth in the cities where it is needed. You might consider joining a worker or two.
Workers are mining terrain near Calcutta and Madras :rolleyes:, irrigation in non-despotic goverment is the key for growth.
I contemplated disbanding 4 hit point horsemen for each 5 hit point war elephant
We have built them and paid 1-2 gpt for each horseman for a long time, not to disband and get only seven shields ;). We could upgrade them when we will get our gpt back and will be ready for a war and GA...

I guess I'm up... Check the save - we might research Printing Press at minimum or using one scientist. We could get monopoly on it easy, why we wasted two turnsets on zero research?
Because we might not get the monopoly and it will cost gold. I suppose it is a low risk investment, and we could sell our map to recoup the gold. IIRC gozpel was researching monotheism and feudalism up until the end of his turnset so his entire turnset was not at zero research. Mine was because I was taking gozpel's cue to increase gold.

By sharing your preference ahead of time I could have put one citizen on science if we had some agreement from the others.

Workers are mining terrain near Calcutta and Madras :rolleyes:, irrigation in non-despotic goverment is the key for growth.
Maybe that is why I pulled workers off mining tasks in several areas to irrigate. There are quite a few more irrigated tiles than before. I am trying for a balance here. Since it will be a while before the cities can use all the 21 tiles they surround, I thought it would be good insurance to have a few more tiles that make shields in Calcutta. This way if production becomes an issue we can switch the citizens to maximize that. In Madras one worker is mining that could be irrigating, though there are other workers irrigating an additional tile over there as well.

By sharing your preferences ahead of time I could have put an even larger focus on irrigation - assuming the others agreed with this approach. If I irrigated too much I might have been criticized for killing production capacity.

If you don't like what they are doing then you can change it.

170BC is one turn short of ten, so Smart can make up for that.

Ok, the thought of getting some money is to avoid losing units/building through demands. Research is also important, to get tech-prices down and a few turns on 30-50% makes a difference, so we don't have to pay full prices.

We have 200g and some so we should research, Education is fine. If we can get that in a few turns, we should be able to trade that for Invention.

Next turn we get our furs back, don't sell it to X-man again. He's becoming too big for his shoes, but it will be difficult for us to fight him as he got a lot of gold.

Strange, I had workers mining hills already or waiting to mine them and they're not improved? We need those hills mined, one or two workers could do the irrigation job easily in pace of the growth of the cities. I normally don't stack workers that often, but when I do I want something done. Ah well.

If next player can sort out how to get Edu and Invention for a fair price, we'll get horses and iron back in 11 turns and can do more deals. Forget PP, it's too risky with the pace the AI is researching.

I want universities, then I want to know the location of saltpeter.

Here's our outstanding deals:

Korea, we're buying wines for 7gpt, expires next turn. RENEW!
Korea, -11gpt for 11 turns

Persia, we're giving furs and 10gpt for one more turn.

Inca, we're giving horses and 23gpt for 6 turns!

Carthage, we're giving iron and 16gpt for 11 turns.

Japan, -15gpt for 11 turns
Japan, +11gpt for 11 turns

Ok, the thought of getting some money is to avoid losing units/building through demands.
Are you saying the AI may demand more gold than we have? I have been working under the bold assumption that the AI would not demand what I did not have. I would often run gold low on purpose in these instances figuring they would not ask for what I did not have.

They can't, you can't trade for more than you have. It's impossible. If we're losing gpt and they demand all of it, you can click the foreign advisor and go to domestic and switch sliders.

No they can't. But if you are running on negative gpt, you may lose building or unit if AI will demand ALL gold.
Once it was happend with me early in the game - AI demanded all my gold when I researched writing on max with gpt lose, and after IBT granary in my SF was razed :mad:

@X-post with Own:
How will you go into advisor screen when AI demands something? I guess you can only refuse or give demand when trade screen with demand pops...

After you cave, click on the advisor (or try double clicking) and then go to domestic. It works, I've done it many times.

Ah yes, I forgot about the domestic screen. Always when we played before we had +100g in the savings account, because the AI never asked for more than that. Someone explained it to me, but I haven't tried it yet. F1 I think it is?

Yes, I don't think that works from the diplo screen though. Double clicking the foreign advisory telling you useless information.

My internet connection has finally been restored, but I won't have time to play any SGs until Sunday.

:bump:

Who's up? Smart? Own?

gozpel
zerksees
Smart
Own
Mathias

I need a swap. Maybe I will make a break with SG's in February, don't have enough free time now :sad:

Smart opting out this turn. Own you are up. R U ready?

i m ready. got it

Hey, :bump:

What's going on, Smart chickened out and now Own lags. Are we at war or something and you guys are afraid of sending the save? :lol:

Are we at war or something and you guys are afraid of sending the save?
:hmm:
I don't think so :lol:
I will play tomorrow, if Own will not grab the save before.

Ok Smart, I've got stuff to do today. I can't believe I forgot.

:bump:
Anybody out there?

If you can't play Smart, I'll get it.

It would be better if you will play it now. I will have much free time tomorrow, and I'll take it then.
Lets keep it going, last turnset was posted 8 days ago :mischief:

I give any of you 12hrs to say you got it, if not, then I take it.

We're playing 5CC, not extra huge pangea with 31 civs. Turns should be fairly quick.

OK, I got it.

170 BC (-1)
MM cities a bit, switch Cathedral builds to Granaries
Research Printing Press @ 40% (-30 gpt)

150 BC (0)
Korean wines now cost 11 gpt, up from 7 gpt.
Push science on up to 50% (-45 gpt)

IT: France wants an alliance... Not a chance.
Delhi: WE >> WE
Bangalore: Granary >> Library

130 BC (1)
IT: Persia and France have signed a peace treaty.

110 BC (2)
Persia has Ivory. It will cost 10 gpt.
Drop lux to 0%, hire a scientist in Delhi, and determine that our economy will see a net gain of 6 gpt with this. We accept.

IT: Japan demands Furs. Our current deals include -15gpt and +12gpt (8 turns each)
Our horses and elephants need something to do, so I refuse. He's still polite.
Bombay: WE >> WE
Madras: Granary >> Library
Calcutta: Granary >> Library

90 BC (3)
IT: Carthage is building Magellan's Voyage

70 BC (4)
Delhi scientist becomes taxman to prevent bankruptcy this turn (23-gpt deal ends this turn)

50 BC (5)
Treasury at 0 gold, drop science to 40% (+1 gpt)

IT: Carthage and France have signed a peace treaty.

30 BC (6)
IT: Bombay: WE >> WE

10 BC (7)

10 AD (8)
IT: Dehli: WE >> WE

30 AD (9)
Sumeria has Gems. They'll cost us 14 gpt.
If we don't take this, we'll have to put lux to 10% next turn, at a cost of at least 20 gpt, or switch our library builds to cathedrals. We accept.
Science is down to 30% now (+5 gpt) We'll have more gold next turn, as several deals will be complete.

50 AD (10)
Persia willing to give 18 gpt for furs.
Carthage willing to give 7 gpt for furs.
Why didn't I offer furs to Sumeria for the Gems?
Inca will give Education for Iron + Horses or Iron + Furs + 8 gpt
France does not have Education, so we might be able to pull something off here.

i looked at save, and we should disband all horses. Yeah, they can upgrade, but we need every penny to keep up in tech, adn upgrades cost 120 gold. We're producing WE's fairly fast, and there's nothing else we could build other than WE's.

Disbanding? I think we can use them. We have 7 WE, gold for 2 upgrades, and 2 WE's will be built in two turns. Stack of 11 elephants could do huge damage. France is a weak target, they havent iron and horses. Also we could raze cities that Persia have captured from French, I think they are lightly defended. Then we will get huge amount of gold from them.
We will have huge economy boost in GA - 57 gpt (for upgrading horses every two turns), and PP will be researched 3 turns earlier. We could join few workers to cities to let them produce WE every two turns in GA.

Offence is the best defence ;)

Disbanding them all will give us 22 gpt, which will greatly speed research. Also, the shields from disbanding will help our WE production. With 15 WE's we could put a dent into France (or take Japan or Frances colonies to take away luxuries).

we won't ahve upgrade opportunity for a while, and it's not worth the money we're wasting on stable fees. Slaughter them and have some pony stew.

Ok, if we will disband them we will get 22 gpt. But if we will trigger golden age now, we will get 57 gpt + increased research + we will be able to produce WE in 2 turns in every city. When GA will be over, we will use all horses and WE's in war, it is better then disband them and get only 7 shields.
Also, when we will do nice damage to Persia, we could get very much gold from them ;)

We do have seven WE's, and more on the way next turn, and the next from disbandings. Keeping the horses is a big waste.

Btw, there's only ten gold in the kitty, with 19 gpt.

We can upgrade 10 horses in 20 turns of GA. We will use ALL elephants to do as much damage to Persia as we can. At the end of GA we will sign peace treaty, and get gold for it. Then we will have low unit support (like we have disbanded all horses), because all units will be used in war.

Ok, this is my last word :crazyeye:

Good, we're back on track. :)

Own & Smart, if any of you are up for it, you can play on. I don't want to stall this game again.

No fighting with Xerxes please, we have a luxdeal with him and he's got all the money in the world. I don't like the thought of being dogpiled. And I'm not sure we can fight France either, after she lost some cities we can't be sure of trade-routes.

No need to disband those horses either, we can upgrade them.

It looks like PP can be useful after all, try to research that as quickly as possible and also try to get Education. I think horses and iron is enough. And 19gpt for furs from Persia sounds like a good deal, but if we can get a tech with the lux in a deal, go for that.

Ok, I seem to be outnumbered here on the horses issue, so I'll cave. I just don't see the point of paying 2 gold stable fees per turn to save them for a while, when our core is producing elephants just fine, and will have a stack of WE's ready to attack before we get the gold needed to upgrade four.

Horses can kill longbows.

I will play after some discussion. Consider this as "got it".

We can get only Invention from France and I think it doesn't worth a war. After learning PP (should be a monopoly tech because AI research it only at the end of middle ages) we will get Invention and Education for sure, and maybe Gunpower, or gold from Persia.
We have active deals with Persia (12), Sumeria (19) and Korea (10). Inca don't have iron and horses, Japan haven't horses and is close to us. Should I attack somebody and trigger GA in my turnset? Remember, in GA we could produce WE in each city every two turns. Also, we will upgrade one horse every two turns. This means that we will get 3 WE's every turn in GA.

My option is sign RoP with France, and attack Japan. Then sign MA with France vs Japan, and they will fight with nearest targer while we will produce elephants and raze their cities. After GA I guess we will get something like Gunpower and Astronomy for peace.
Any suggestions are welcome :)

Can't Japan build Samurai with chivalry and no horses?

I can't recall if there will be any affect to us if France is eliminated while we are still in a military alliance with them.

What is the benefit to us of making this war other than building a bunch of war elephants?

Shouldn't we use the golden age to build universities, banks or factories instead of war elephants?

Can't Japan build Samurai with chivalry and no horses?
I forgot about it... Yes, they can :blush:

I can't recall if there will be any affect to us if France is eliminated while we are still in a military alliance with them.
IIRC, we will get rep hit only if target civ is eliminated.

What is the benefit to us of making this war other than building a bunch of war elephants?
If we will build units and leave them at the home, we will get huge unit support cost.

Shouldn't we use the golden age to build universities, banks or factories instead of war elephants?
Because of the same reason: to build universities, banks and especially factories we have to learn requiered techs, but with high unit support we will be far behind of all AI's. After war and golden age they will give us techs for peace.

It is only my option, if the team will disagree with it, we can delay Golden Age ;)

Can't Japan build Samurai with chivalry and no horses?



Yes, they only need iron.

I am curious what the others think.

More random thoughts:

Are you planning to be at war with them for 20 turns, or do you think France will sign peace before then?

Is taking the Great Library not an option at this time? Maybe a later war? I can't recall where it is.

Speaking of saving money - Do we have granaries in size 12 city we could sell? Can we afford to sell temples when cathedrals are done to save coin?

Are you planning to be at war with them for 20 turns, or do you think France will sign peace before then?
France is very weak now, I think Japan will not allow peace and France will break MA ;)
Is taking the Great Library not an option at this time? Maybe a later war? I can't recall where it is.
It is in Carthage, far away from our country. We aren't too behind in techs, also we can't bring new WE's to the battle-front fast. Japan is ideal target, second variant is Inca, they haven't iron and horses. But we will need RoP with Sumeria which can be expensive, because they are in 3rd place in land.

Smart - at least see if you can figure out where the Japan iron is. No iron = no Samurais. If they are buying it then their seller can become our ally :)

I am not sure this war is the best idea but since no one else is responding and you are playing I guess it is up to you. If nothing else we can get some slave workers and free up gpt by replacing our workers with slaves. Also joining a few workers to get our remaining cities up to size 12 would also get us some gold.

Are you going to need to update the horses? Maybe we should hold off on that until it is needed to save some gold.

Sounds like nobody want a war. Ok, I will not start it, also I don't want to ruin this game if I will get extrametly bad luck :lol:
Btw, Japan haven't active trades according to F4 screen, so they have their own iron.
I will play tomorrow for sure, any more advices are wellcome.

I don't mind a war and GA now. :hammer: By all means, go for it and I can only see France as a good target atm.

I see an easy path, raze Marseilles and Chartres next turn. Just move all available Jumbos and horses close to those cities now, then declare next turn. Make no new deals before that with our resources and lux, but check that when Marseilles is gone, we don't want to hurt our rep..

Just watch out for that lone LB in our territory.

GA would help us a lot now as we're falling behind again. Research PP as quick as possible.

When GA is initialized, build those buildings! Cathedrals and later universities.

We can learn PP without GA in 8 turns at 50% science rate. If we are going to a war only for GA, I think it would be better to wait for PP and trade it for Education and other techs. Then we will start a war and build universities to increase GA scientific output.
We will get more breakers if we will have universities during the GA instead of building them after Cathedrals at the end of 20 turns ;)

We can get Education now, by trading iron and horses to Inca. There you have your Uni's. ;) PP in 8 turns probably means 2-3 more techs for the AI's, as they always trade between themselves.

Another reason to go for it now, is to deny Joan's enemies to grab those cities and we should get some slaves by razing them. Then we can join a few of our natives ones in to cities.

If we want to hold on to the GA for a while yet, we have the French town SW that can start it later.

Glad to hear gozpel is supporting a war. Stomp Joan's cities, golden age, free slaves, get some techs, research PP and sell it for techs to be named later. Sounds like a plan.

Would a great leader be too much to ask?

This is just silly, we've played 1 turnset since Jan 26.

The discussions and lagging are not comparable to any other game I ever played. Do we want to play on?

I take this in 6-8 hrs, if nothing happened. I'm happy to take it,Smart.

Over-commitment and stuff I understand, but where is the simple: Got no time to do it, please skip/swap?

At least a couple of players here wants to play on. :gripe:

I'm happy to take it,Smart.
I've posted "got it" two days ago, doesn't 24/48h SG rules apply to this :hmm:
I've swaped in the last turnset with Own, but... :shakehead
I started it already, will post turnlog ASAP.

24/48h does apply to this, but all the sematics made me feel to make a push.

We have 5 cities to sort out, it shouldn't take long.

If you don't want war, just play that way. I'm not the almighty ruler here and only stated my ideas.

I was merely commenting on the seemingly over commited people here and I don't want any more stalling. I could do some copy/paste from the last page.

I actually will from this page:

Feb 06, 2006, 07:40 AM
I will play after some discussion. Consider this as "got it".

Feb 08, 2006, 09:09 AM
My latest answer.

What 24/48 universe do you live in? So I could ping you? :D:

I'll take this after smart plays, if nobody else wants it.

Pre-flight
Set science to 50%, PP in 8.
Move units prepearing for attack
Change production in Delhi to Colloseum.

IBT
Korea demanded 10 gold and TM. Move science slider back to 40% do prevent auto-disbanding
Bombay: WE >> Colloseum.

Turn 1
Use "remove or declare" to get war happiness.
Whack LB using a horse, promote it to elite. [1-0-0]
Trigger golden age by attacking Amiens, raze it with galley. No slaves [3-1-0]
Raze Marselies, 2 slaves [6-2-2]
Capture 2 workers near Rheims [6-2-4]
Raze Chartres with settler and catapult in it, 4 slaves [9-2-9] (last number = captured units)
Science to 60%, PP in 5, +10 gpt.
Inca and Korea are Gracious, because they are at war with France too.
Sell horses and iron to Inca for Education and 3 gold.
Set Bombay and Delhi to Uni's.

IBT
Madras, Bangalore, Calcutta: Lib >> Uni.

Turn 2
Join two native workers to Calcutta and two to Bangalore.

IBT
France captured back two slaves.

Turn 3
Recapture them agein
Raze Rheims for 4 slaves and kill longbow on our terrirory. [12-2-9]
Join one worker to Bangalore.

Turn 4
Join two workers to Madras and all cities now are at size 12 :woohoo:
Send stack of 4 WE's and 6 horses to Orleans. Inca have few longbows near it too, lets hope they will lose.

IBT
Japan and Persia have signed MA against Carthage.
We have PP!

Turn 5
Time to do some trades:
Bought Banking from Persia for PP, 9 gpt and 110 gold.
Invention from Inca for PP, Furs and 6 gpt.
Astronomy, 6 gpt, 170 gold, horses and WM from Korea for PP and Banking.
Gunpower and 178 gold from Japan for Banking
7gpt and 7g from Persia for PP
379 gold and Monarchy from Sumeria for Banking
74 gold from Japan for Astronomy.

We have got 5 techs, World Map and some gold for just one optional useless tech :thumbsup:

Researching Chemistry (9 turns)

IBT
X-man demanded 56 gold and TM.

Turn 6
Japanese sword and Archer were moved from hill to grassland near Madras. Are they planning to attack?
Sign RoP with them, they give 2 gpt and 20 gold, I give PP. Everybody know it, and they can buy it anyway

from other AI.
AI usually don't like RoP rape, I hope they wouldn't attack.

IBT
Japanese units are going to Carthage, they are at war.

Turn 7
Raze Orleanis, with SoZ :(
Capture 8 slaves and catapult [17-2-18]

IBT
Sumeria demanded 53 gold and TM :(
Bombay: University >> Bank.

Turn 8
Destroy French settler pair [18-2-20]

Turn 9
Capture two workers [18-2-22]

Turn 10
Raze Besancon for 4 slaves. [22-3-26]
French is destroyed :hammer:
That was a usefull war, all those free workers will help a lot, also GA will help us to move to Industrial Age. We should think about ToE => Hoover's combination.
Sumeria have saltpeter for sale, but I think it is useless now.

Glorious India!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Goz11_250AD_India.JPG

Tech tree after my trades:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Goz11_250AD_techs.JPG

And the save: Goz11_250_AD.SAV (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Goz11_250_AD.SAV)

Note: hire specialist in Bangalore, I forgot to do it after destroying French, we have lost war happiness

May be a little too late now to switch, but democracy will have a higher value in trade because it's a monopoly.

Got it.

I wanted to research it too, but price was too high without universities. ;)
Finish Chemistry and then start Demo with Uni's in Bangalore, Calcutta and Madaras. I think price will be droped to ~8-9 turns.
We still can get monopoly, AI really don't like to research it.
Also check for happiness, I forgot to do it after war with French

Very nice! :) Much better than I could hope for, so guts and glory prevails.

Have to look at the save, but the only thing I can see from the screenie is that the silk is free for a colony.

Demo is good, since we won't stay at war long times anyways. Even if we don't get it as mono, someone might want it.

Pre-turn- Hire tax collector in Bangalore and switch tiles around to avoid starvation. Decide not to go for silks, because the japanese city just needs a cultural expansion to kill it. Also hire one in Calcutta.


Madras riots :wallbash: . Delhi Bank > WE. Calcutta Uni > cathedral. Bangalore uni > cathedral. Renew wines deal for 13 gpt and 20 gold. Persia discovers democracy. Send science to 100% and get chem in one.
Chem > democracy. SCI at 70%. Sell it to Gilgamesh for 9 gold, economics, and saltpeter. Then I sell economics, world map, and 4 gpt for navigation, world map, and 14 gold. Change research to physics, is a monopoly tech. At 100% it’s seven turns.
Renew ivory deal for 240 gold. Delhi WE > WE. Madras Uni > cathedral.
Bombay bank > WE. Calcutta cathedral > bank. Put taxies in calcutta back to citizens.
SCI down 10%. Delhi WE > WE. Bangalore cathedral > bank. Put taxi back.
SCI down to 70%.
Delhi WE > wealth (we have more WE’s that supportable). Bombay WE > wealth. Calcutta WE > bank. Madras Cathedral > bank. Wealth gave huge economic bonus, but I can’t raise science for a benefit.
SCI to 60%, physics still in 2.
Inca demands chemistry, I give in because I don’t know what could happen to trade reputation. Can’t lower science. We get monopoly on physics! We can trade physics, but I’ll leave it to next player.

Looking good. So, who's up? I can take it tomorrow if we want to revert to the original roster, otherwise Gozpel is up.

You can take it Mathias.

Excellent job getting Physics first, now we need to squeeze the AI for everything we can.

Good to see that we have a monopoly :goodjob:

OMG, Wealth :eek:
We can build coloseums to stop spending gpt for luxes or courthouses to save few coins and shields. Also we might start prebuild for Newton's or something usefull, but I will never waste shields, especially in GA for wealth...

Change of plans: I don't have time for this tonight.

Ok, I got it.

Pre-turn - Wealth in 5CC is not a good thing, especially in GA. Now and again you will need money, but more important is to build all buildings, so Delhi starts colloseum and Bombay will get a courthouse.

Check the trade situation, not often you get the chance to trade with a monopoly tech at this stage of the game.

Since we're still in GA, I prefer the needed tech first:

Sell Physics to Sumeria for Metallurgy, Music Theory, 13gpt and 15g plus WM.
Physics, 13gpt and 12g to Japan for Military Tradition.
Korea get MT and Physics plus WM and 22g for Democracy
Physics and WM to Persia for their WM and 552g.

X-man knows Free Artistry.

Music Theory to Inca for their WM and 16g. Sell WM around for another 69g. Now we and Persia have all the gold in the world, we have just under 800g and Persia close to 11k. :lol:

Not sure when the GA ends, I hold on switching gov until that's over.

With all this money we can finally get those embassies, it cost us 313g. I don't get one in Carthage, since they are at war with 4 nations and I reckon it would be a waste. If they survive we can buy one later.

Also as a note, we're getting saltpeter from Sumeria for another 12 turns. When we get back our iron next turn I will build some cannons. Artillery-stuff is a must have and I don't care if we have to turn off research to get it.

Btw, turn up research on TOG to 100% just to benefit the most of our fading GA.

Finally, press enter.

360AD - Golden age is just about over, ah well.

Sell WM to Sumeria for 2gpt and 2g.

I think about switching gov now, but decide to wait until our buildings are finished. And the possibility to get TOG first.

370AD - Bangalore bank -> courthouse.

380AD - Nothing.

390AD - Delhi colloseum -> cannon.
Bombay court -> cannon.

Research down to 70%, still on deficit.

400AD - Madras and Calcutta build banks -> courts.

Carthage is down to 2 cities, Persia is on a roll and is becoming a monster.

410AD - Delhi cannon -> cannon.
Bombay cannon -> colloseum.

Persia knows TOG. :(

420AD - Carthage lost their last city on the continent.

Japanese units are lurking in the fog, I reinforce our borders.

430AD - Delhi cannon -> cannon.
Bangalore court -> colloseum.

Finally our furs have some value, Sumeria buys it for 5gpt and 33g.
I take out a loan from Persia, 14g for 1gpt so we get TOG next turn. Then I can switch gov.

440AD - Drats, Japan demand 24g, I reject and they declare. Couldn't they have waited for a few turns so we could be prepared?

We learn TOG -> Magnetism.

Sign alliance with Sumeria, giving them TOG and we get 41gpt in return.
Sign Inca too for Democracy.

Immediately raze 3 japanese towns, lose 4 WE's. Losing against reg pikes is a pain.
Zero research for a couple of turns, so we can upgrade some stuff.

450AD - Madras and Calcutta courts -> cavs. Swap Bangalore to cav.

Start upgrades to cavs.

I'm going to play 5 more turns to see if I can survive this pickle.

460AD - More upgrades.

Persia is Industrial.

470AD - The saltpeter deal with Sumeria is over, I renew it for 20gpt and our only incense.
Buy wines from Korea for 10gpt and ivory from Persia for 9gpt.

480AD - Set up assault on Yokohama.

Sell our native workers to Persia for 137g, this saves us 14gpt in upkeep.

490AD - Sell our new lux silks to Persia for 22gpt. Another will be online next turn.

We raze Yokohama and Nagasaki without losses. We don't have to do more to Japan or Persia will grab the land.

500AD - We get a leader, send him home! We want an army, don't we? :)

I have slaves and stuff blocking the SW point where the silks are, so noone can plant a city there.

Next player can play 15 if he wants to, it won't be too much to do I think.

I'm a bit worried about Persia, he's furious with us. Is that because he got our workers?

And yeah, as soon as we got Magnetism we should switch to Demo.

Sorry, no pics. Can anyone sort that out?

Sounds great, cav, cannons, leader.

After looking at save, I question the call on courthouse building in Delhi. Yes, it does reduce proganda effects, but capitals propaganda costs are usually around 40000 gold! I'd rather build more cav.

"Sign alliance with Sumeria, giving them TOG and we get 41gpt in return."

This is a mistake. If they break the alliance, we lose the gold. Better to give gold and/or gpt for alliance, then sell the tech.

Edit:
I just reviewed Bamspeedy's article on AI attitude. In it he mentions that selling one of our workers gives a +1 modifier for the civ we sold them to. I guess that means selling 7 workers would be +7. Also, razing cities gives +1 each (+12 for the civ that controled the city). Persia's aggression level starts him out at +3. We're in his shunned government while he is not, for +4. As far as I can tell, we only have -8 to counter any of this. I don't think there's a lot we can do. Getting out of Republic will only help a little.

I think I am next. I got it unless I get overruled.

Good job with crushing Japan, with just five cities we can do so much damage to other civs! :thumbsup:
It's normal thing that all are furious. When I've played 5CCC all civs were furious even if I traded with them and had RoP with embassies. They really hate city razing :mischief:
Using leader for an army is a no-brainer, then we will be able to build HE and MA. Fill army with cavs.
I will never build Courthouse in the capital, but it can be used as a small prebuild.

Gozpel, can you post a roster? All past swaps are misleading me :crazyeye:

Summary:

Army created and filled with vet cavalry
Army was victorious and heroic epic due in 2, military academy in 12 or so.
Made several attempts with elites but no new leader. Did lose one elite attacking Samurai.
Two more Japan cities razed costing us 3 cavalry and them 7 various units, added at least 10 more slave workers. Moving on another of their cities.

Carthage is OCC, demanded metallurgy. I refused and they declare war on us in 510 AD

Sold metallurgy to Inca collecting 212 gold, free artistry and world map
Acquire magnetism from Sumerians for 199 gold + 10 gpt in 530 AD. This is about the same price as to finish it ourselves at 60%.
Renewed gems from Sumerians for 14 gpt in 540 AD

Enter industrial age to discover Korea and Persia have all first level IA techs. Sumer lacks nationalism. That is expensive and I am not confident we can get it before they do. It will not benefit us unless we get into a real war so I start medicine with lone scientist. I want sanitation for a chance to get monopoly tech and grow our cities. Now is probably a good time to crank up the slider and try to get it more quickly. Next player can turn up the slider or go somewhere else. We do have over 1000 gold and are showing over 200 per turn extra with science at 0%.

Watch as Persia aligns the world against Carthage. Xerxes wanted money from us so we did not sign with him. If his enemies are our enemies maybe he will stay polite.

Persia demands 36 gold, which we gave, and he is now polite. The war with Carthage might also be helping this.

Finish colosseums in Madras and Calcutta, the rest of the builds were cavalry I believe. The only build changes were to build heroic epic in Bangalore instead of colosseum and military academy in the capital instead of courthouse.

Convert to democracy. MM during off turn to get some gold from tax collectors, actually had “we love the Mahatma day” in four of the five cities during anarchy.

Japan builds Shakespeares, Sumer build Newtons, and I think Persia completed Magellans

Palace expanded twice – went up and front pillars

gozpel
zerksees
Smart
Own
Mathias

Thanks. Before playing it I have one question: why we are doing a lone-scientist research? We can get Medicine in 13 turns without gpt loss, and then research Sanitation with hope for monopoly :rolleyes:

In most of my games, I usually get a monopoly on Sanitation, I think its because the AI tries to research RP first.

Yeah, I got sanitation once on sid for a monopoly when everyone else was deep in the MA. Good monopoly tech, and hosp's are valuable for 5CC.

We need 4 cities for every army we create, so Military Academy is useless for us. Well, it gives 1cp :lol: Switch that to a courthouse, it will be useful when we get over 12pop.

We must build more cannons and cavs, or one day we will stand there with our pants down. Artillery stuff is the only way to get the better of an aggressive AI.

I agree on research on Medicine -> Sanitation and at max possible. I can't wait to get those hospitals and then later factories and power plants.

Military academy makes our army stronger, but that's useless, as instead we could have many more cav, which is more powerful than a more powerful army. I guess it could build an army or two when cav armies obselete, but that doesn't happen for a while, and we could get a leader just as easily.

I'm OK with the military academy switch. I had a vague hope that we could use it as a prebuild for TOE - though I may be a few turns ahead of myself. You could always switch that to heroic epic, and Bangalore to something else - that would minimize the losses.

As far as research I wanted to build up cash for upgrades if needed then go full out on research, buy medicine once we get the price down, then go all out for sanitation. The lone scientist was to keep it going while the cash builds up. I agree now is a good time to crank up the science.

Smart: We can't avoid paying out of the nose for saltpeter in 6-7 turns, but we can't afford to lose it at this stage.

Cannons and cavs, Delhi can build 3-turn cavs by using hills for 2 turns and then switch back to cow last turn. It will cause 1 food-loss for two turns and then back to full granary last turn. do that.

We'll need a dozen or two of cannons in the future, at least, so start building them too. Research will hurt as this happens, but we have no choice, we just need those units.

If we happen to get to Sanitation first, then we're in a good seat, otherwise it will be an uphill battle. And Persia is way too strong for my liking, as in so many other games before.

Somehow I feel Sumeria has to be our allies for a long time or our enemies. If we pick them as buddies, they will take the persian forces and probably lose. If we pick Persia as our friends, they will just take over Sumer and we're dead.

It's not on the table yet, but some discussions would help. Korea and Inca are just stage-players now, we would kick their butts anytime.

I think we should crush Persians, if we will ally them against somebody, Persians will "eat" them :p
But we must spend a lot of cash to buy MA's, or we will be dogpiled. :rolleyes:

We can't avoid paying out of the nose for saltpeter in 6-7 turns, but we can't afford to lose it at this stage.
We are paying 20 gpt for it, which is equal to 300-350 gold (AI values lump sums more then gpt). We can give it to Sumeria to save gpt for research.

I think we should crush Persians, if we will ally them against somebody, Persians will "eat" them

Exactly! And we get those ivory sources pretty easy when we go that way.

But we can't really do it right yet. All deals with X-man has to be off the table and we need to have something to offer, especially Sumeria, which will be our buffer.

You guys are getting the hang of 5CC I reckon. :)

You're up, Smart, so give us those cavs and cannons. And more if you can find it. ;

Yes, just 9 turns to wait :dance:
I will try to play today...

I actually thought we should have gone after Persia first. The monster is only going to get bigger. Is a war with Persia imminent right after our trade deals end? I definitely think it should be done soon so that Xerxes whole army can't use railroads to show up at our door all at once.

I think it important to have enough to buy all the AI in against Xerxes. If we do that the Sumerians might be able to hold out enough to gas each other out, where we can start taking Persian cities. Also this war would slow the tech pace considerably I would guess. Of course our deals for MA should all be on a per turn payment.

If Xerxes demands gold and we refuse are we breaking any per turn deals we had with him?

Mutual protection pacts will be a cheap way to get the others into the war once we have the right tech (nationalism?). If I use them, I sign the deal then declare war the same turn, then wait for the bad guy to invade to trigger all the MPPs.

I can play only tomorrow, sorry for delay...

If AI demands something, or you ask them to "leave or declare" reputation will not be ruined, because AI declare war, not you ;)
Sometimes it may be usefull, for example if you see that huge stack is moving to your territory. Offer all your gpt for techs and lump sums, and then ask AI to leave.

Yes, just 9 turns to wait :dance:
I will try to play today...

Don't you like this game? :crazyeye:

If you can't play, the obvious thing is to send it to next better player.

Which is Own.

Smart: If you want to drop out, just say so.

I'm not a p!ssant, just annoyed.

Chose now! It's 4 days since last save.

Smart: If you want to drop out, just say so.
If you don't want to see me here, just say so :rolleyes:
I can't play everyday, next time I will post a "got it" if I can play right now.
Give it to Own. Maybe he will play it fast :mischief:

I can play fast, but I can't write turnlogs fast, because my computer is slow switching from civ to word.

Smart, it's ok to drop out. SG's should be fun, not a burden, and if you feel guilty about committment, it's better than holding up the game.

I can play fast, but I can't write turnlogs fast, because my computer is slow switching from civ to word.
How about notepad?
Or how about another old PC on the side with Word on it? Surely there is an old Pentium 75 around somewhere with Word on it you can get.

I actually write the log on paper usually and then transfer it to electronic after the turn or the next day at lunch hour.

I'll try Notepad, thanks :) . The only other PC is in another room. I think faster than I write, so writing it is too hard.

I have that problem too, Own. Makes for a mild case of induced dyslexia, ie: I skip words when writing, because my train of thoughts is already a sentence and a half later down the line.

A notepad is the easy and convenient way to go IMIO too. Make a template with turns and IBT's marked and it goes even faster.

I'm up, I didn't understand what smart was saying yesterday for some reason. Got it now. Will try notepad.

Notepad works :) , but I can't transport the text without posting the notepad file. Copy/paste doesn't work, and neither does dragging. I've stopped at turn two, because Persia is becoming a monster, and we need to decide whether or not to build up and attack with other nations help.

Here's the text:
Pre-turn- Change Delhi to cavalry. Waste of 80 shields.

IBT- Persians take Osaka. Darn.

1. Go to Kyoto, last remaining city, but discover huge Persian cav stack already there.

iBT- Persians take Kyoto, killing japanese. Build HE.

2. Error, restart from autosave. There are more dyes available according to mapstat, probably being traded to Japan. Then I thought maybe our rep is ruined, but it's not. Also our net income dropped.

gozpel, please give us your thoughts on making war with Persia and who is next. Thanks

Own is still on turn 2, then it should be Mathias, if not Smart find time to play.

We still have deals, so war with Persia isn't great right now. We can of course try to steal, as I noticed our research is still on minimum. But before we do anything drastic like that, we should have MPP with at least Sumeria (probably Korea as well) It would be costly though.

I also noticed our borders will expand within 2 turnsets, all 4 cities except the capitol that is. That will help us later.

We need a bunch of cannons too, before we can feel somewhat safe from any intruding X-men. :)

And yeah, we need to pillage some roads here and there, so Persia can't blitz us. It's an useful strategy to slow things down.

Got it chief, finish up today. So I'll prepare for a war.

Own - today was yesterday...

Yeah, I had a lot of HW and chores. Finish up ASAP.

Can't post turnlog again, too bad. Will post notepad file.

Summary:
Built up army, we should attack Persia when we're a little stronger, and when they're a little more gassed from Sumerian war. I'd suggest stealing steam power from Korea carefully, and workers are already in place to build first RR city connection.

Ack! Persia spreading like a virus! :lol:

Yes, but Sumeria and us will be great white blood cells :) .

You're thinking of bacterial infections, this a viral, WE NEED VACCINES!!!








;)