View Full Version : The rebellion of the boxers


Kublai-Khan
Jan 31, 2002, 06:37 PM
I just have seen a documental in the history channel about the rebellion of the boxers and i want to ask what do the people here think about that rebellion and its motivations and if it was a justified revolt against imperialist power or a genocidal and barbaric act against foreigners and christianity.
The documental really shocked me, all i knew about the rebellion was that the boxers thought that they were immune to bullets wich was just a funny anecdote to me.
According to the documental the boxers with the agreement of the queen (whats the female equivalent for emperor in english?)
tried to annihilate completely all the "white" foreigners who were living in China and even chinese christians to get rid of all western influence.
I know that what iam going to say is frivol, but
as a latin america a land that was/is full of dictatorships, revolutions, popular demonstrations, corrupt governments and inmperialistic exploitation i dont know what to think about the boxer rebellion.
It might be justified because those foreigners were exploiting the chinese and i bet that the opio war and their economical policies killed far more chinese citizens than europeans who died during the boxer revolts, but
the boxer revolt sounds like a genocide to me, to kill all christians and foreigners is plain genocidal.
Even though the revolt must be justified because of the explotaition killing all the people is bad bad, the prosperity of the jews in germany was one of the facts that caused resentment in the population and maybe allowed hitler to commit his plan without popular opposition.I talk about the ghetto segregation, not about the genocide bacause i think most of the people didnt know about what was going on.
As a white christian guy it seemed scary to me.

But maybe all of what i have spoken is bull****, i mean i am a 17 years old who occasionally reads about history and its far more interested in ancient than this, all i know about the boxer rebellion is what i just have seen in tv, and maybe it was pure propaganda this is why i ask this here, many people seem to know a lot about china here.

Knight-Dragon
Jan 31, 2002, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by Kublai-Khan
I just have seen a documental in the history channel about the rebellion of the boxers and i want to ask what do the people here think about that rebellion and its motivations and if it was a justified revolt against imperialist power or a genocidal and barbaric act against foreigners and christianity.

[quote]The documental really shocked me, all i knew about the rebellion was that the boxers thought that they were immune to bullets wich was just a funny anecdote to me.A lot of religious uprisings against the West thought they're immune to bullets too. Like the Mahdi and his followers in the Sudan in the last century and some of the current Islamists in SE Asia. Yes, some of the bomohs (witch doctors) around here promised their followers (who are usually not very well-educated, if at all) that they're impervious to modern firearms.

According to the documental the boxers with the agreement of the queen (whats the female equivalent for emperor in english?) tried to annihilate completely all the "white" foreigners who were living in China and even chinese christians to get rid of all western influence.Term is the Dowager Empress.

I know that what iam going to say is frivol, but
as a latin america a land that was/is full of dictatorships, revolutions, popular demonstrations, corrupt governments and inmperialistic exploitation i dont know what to think about the boxer rebellion.
It might be justified because those foreigners were exploiting the chinese and i bet that the opio war and their economical policies killed far more chinese citizens than europeans who died during the boxer revolts, but
the boxer revolt sounds like a genocide to me, to kill all christians and foreigners is plain genocidal.
Even though the revolt must be justified because of the explotaition killing all the people is bad bad, the prosperity of the jews in germany was one of the facts that caused resentment in the population and maybe allowed hitler to commit his plan without popular opposition.I talk about the ghetto segregation, not about the genocide bacause i think most of the people didnt know about what was going on.
As a white christian guy it seemed scary to me.The reasons for the Boxers uprising are very complex. Religious fervour, reaction against the Christian missionary movement, wild rumours, govt ploy and encouragement etc.

But in the end, they're hijacked by the Manchus to attk the Europeans. The Dowager Empress even sent in regular troops to 'aid' them, although the soldiers weren't that enthusiatic about it.

But the grieviences the Chinese had against the West (and Japan) are real, and the present Commie govt keeps reminding them. At the turn of the century, in the Foreign Quarter in Shanghai, at the front entrances of restaurants, it's normal to have a sign that said "No dogs or Chinese allowed." With the unsaid implication that the Chinese are on the lvl of animals. So there. :mad:

Just one of the numerous insults to the Chinese in the past. That's why the present Chinese are very touchy when it comes to their national and racial pride, particularly considering all the real and perceived insults and humiliations they'd endured in the past. ;)

But maybe all of what i have spoken is bull****, i mean i am a 17 years old who occasionally reads about history and its far more interested in ancient than this, all i know about the boxer rebellion is what i just have seen in tv, and maybe it was pure propaganda this is why i ask this here, many people seem to know a lot about china here.Everybody was or will be 17 at some point. ;) Don't beat yourself so hard about it. :lol:

damunzy
Feb 01, 2002, 12:06 AM
But the grieviences the Chinese had against the West (and Japan) are real, and the present Commie govt keeps reminding them. At the turn of the century, in the Foreign Quarter in Shanghai, at the front entrances of restaurants, it's normal to have a sign that said "No dogs or Chinese allowed." With the unsaid implication that the Chinese are on the lvl of animals. So there. :mad:

I am having a hard time not doubting you Knight-Dragon. From all your other posts I have come to respect what you say for true but it seems crazy that in a Chinese town that there would be a sign saying no Chinese allowed. I wouldn't allow that to happen in my hometown. How can the Chinese in Shanghai allow this to continue?

Knight-Dragon
Feb 01, 2002, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by PaleHorse76
I am having a hard time not doubting you Knight-Dragon. From all your other posts I have come to respect what you say for true but it seems crazy that in a Chinese town that there would be a sign saying no Chinese allowed. I wouldn't allow that to happen in my hometown. How can the Chinese in Shanghai allow this to continue? It's in the Foreign Quarter in Shanghai, under the jurisdiction of the European powers. The Chinese govt has no authority there (this was part of the treaty ports agreement after the Opium Wars), let alone the Chinese people.
This was the time when British gunboats patrolled the Yangzi, British personnel manned the Chinese Customs, the Russians practically ruled Manchuria and Mongolia (they still do for Mongolia), the Japanese were eyeing the mainland hungrily, the Germans were entrenched in Qingdao, Shandong and the French were slowly subsuming Guangxi. And the Foreign Quarter was being garrisoned by thousands of foreign troops. Kinda hard to protest if you are facing down well-armed infantry supported by heavy machine-guns and what.

I read it in 'Sons of the Yellow Emperor' by Lynn Pan a very long time ago but I still remember it to this day cos it's so .... you-know insulting. But probably in only a few high-class restaurants in the district. Or maybe my memory's wrong. :o

But it's all in the past. Just so long as we don't repeat our mistakes and fall too behind the West, eveything's fine. ;) And thanks for your compliment. :)

Flatlander Fox
Feb 01, 2002, 06:33 PM
I am not well enough informed on Pre-WWI Asiatic history... I have read a bunch of books lately on German history, and am pretty well versed on European affairs.

Anybody got a good "starter history" book suggestion? Or even just your favorite? Preferably about China or Japan, I want to stay out of the islands until I get the mainland covered.

The worst thing about the racism and exploitation is that not enough people know about it.

Kublai-Khan
Feb 01, 2002, 07:27 PM
How is the rebellion of the boxers seen in the east?
And
is there something like some animosity against christians or white people there?

I ask you this because a month ago a girl from Malaysia contacted me through icq and she started to talk to me and it was a very strange chat, she asked me really specific questions about my ethnicity, religion. most of all racial subjects.
When she realised that i was a white christian she seemed to be disappointed and never talk to me again.
I suppose that she thought i was chinese because of my nickname Kublai_Khan so i understand her.

Kublai-Khan
Feb 01, 2002, 07:30 PM
Maybe it is my paranoia,
maybe she was just looking for a boyfriend and she realized i am too far away.:p

Oda Nobunaga
Feb 02, 2002, 12:17 AM
I'm taking an history class titled "China in revolutions" right now (China, 1850-now, roughly) in university, so I happen to know some stuff about this...
Knight-Dragon is, essentially, right. After their victory in the Opio(Opium?) war, the western powers forced lots of unfair treaties on China, and the pannels "No Chinesse" Would have been a very in-character move for them.

The chinesse had very real reasons to want to kick the western powers out of China, which were exacerbated by the Dowager empress to convince them to hit westernes instead of the government. That didn't work out quite well, and the western retaliation wasn't much prettier than the rebellion itself. This ultimately would lead to the ascencion of the communism government (after the 1911 rebellion, the Civil War, the Japanesse invasion and so on).

Knight-Dragon
Feb 03, 2002, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by Kublai-Khan
How is the rebellion of the boxers seen in the east?
And
is there something like some animosity against christians or white people there?Where I live (Singapore), nope. Here, Caucasians are so common nobody makes any comments any more. So's Msia. My boss (she's British) even goes to Kuala Lumpur every other weekend to drink and shop.

But in China, probably a lot of animosities going around, against the West in general (US in particular nowadays; ironic cos traditionally the US has always been China's best Western friend). But the worst is reserved for the Japanese I think.

Cos they (the Japs) keep white-washing the history of their horrific occupation of Asia Pacific during WW2 and before. In their school curriculuum, they portray themselves as liberators of Asia fr European imperialism :rolleyes: or conveniently leave out a lot of their darkest atrocities (Rape of Nanjing, medical experimentation by Unit 731 , Battaan Death March, the Death Railway in Burma and so on).

The Japanese refuses to face up to their past aggression. They won't even want to apologise. :rolleyes: Germany's conduct in this respect is exemplary.

I ask you this because a month ago a girl from Malaysia contacted me through icq and she started to talk to me and it was a very strange chat, she asked me really specific questions about my ethnicity, religion. most of all racial subjects.
When she realised that i was a white christian she seemed to be disappointed and never talk to me again.Very strange indeed. I got to tell you though - a lot of M'sians are very narrow-minded. I am odd, going by M'sian standards. :p

I suppose that she thought i was chinese because of my nickname Kublai_Khan so i understand her.No self-respecting Chinese will call himself Kublai Khan. :p He's the initiator of one of the most hated dynasties (cos it's Mongol and anti-Chinese) in Chinese imperial history.

But then again, I may be wrong..... :p

€ønqui$tadør
Feb 06, 2002, 04:27 AM
knight-dragon, what d'ya do in JB? shopping?

hmm...as an ethnic chinese descent whose only weak link to my ancestral roots is that i speak chinese and know general chinese history and a bit of chinese culture, i think the boxer rebellion is to a certain extent justified.

anyway the empress dowager was a real b*tch who used the imperial treasury for herself and never committed herself to ruling the country.

and for some of u who may not know, the Qing (or Ching) /Manchu Dynasty was NOT a Chinese dynasty. The Manchus were a northern race who took hold of China in 1600's and ruled since then till 1911.

i agree that the chinese had real reasons for the boxer rebellion. from their standing, they were the very victims of western intrusion into China since 1800s. the west had basically illegally traded opium into China and brought her entire population onto its knees begging for drugs. they had also forced open trading ports so the west could trade with China.

in some places where the west had influence or had perpetually colonised, they actually took themselves as masters and persecuted the Chinese in their own country.

the Chinese had been generally xenophobic due to constant intrusions by northern barbaric tribes throughout history. but of course they were somewhat arrogant about themselves, unlike the Japanese who realised they had to modernise their society.

originally the Boxers' main aims were to overthrow the non-Chinese Manchu government. then came trotting the westerners so the Dowager decided to sway to Boxers to support the Manchus and rebel against the Boxers.

do we hate the west? i think i can say that i receive relatively unbiased education regarding history, and i'm exposed to all sorts of western stuff. i would say no. but looking back in history, yes to some extent. but that is a different generation. disliking the old generation for what they did doesn't mean we should that we should hate their descendants too.

i certainly dislike the west for its colonization of the world and bla bla bla. of course the west has its version of how it views this chapter in history. but i won't go into details about that.

but i don't suppose i have any reason to hate the west for what it is now. the shift in global power is balancing now, so we are seeing a more balanced world in a sense that no single civilisation dominates the world. but i am somewhat a little annoyed by what extent USA can do to protect its so-called national interests.

i'm reading a book now called "Clash of Cultures and the Remaking of World Order" gives valuable insights into such things.

allhailIndia
Feb 06, 2002, 06:12 AM
The Boxer revolution is quite similar to the Sepoy Mutiny or The First war of Indian Indepenedence which began in 1857. The objectives were similar, kick out the Foriegner, have local rulers and remove western influences. Yes, even in India, there were several places, even upto Independence, where Indians were not allowed. However, I feel that revolutions with negative goals, like the destructuin or removal of modernity have always been counterproductive to the initiators. I am not quite sure why, perhaps someone could explain??
:confused:

Knight-Dragon
Feb 06, 2002, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by €ønqui$tadør
knight-dragon, what d'ya do in JB? shopping?Going off-topic, I'm Msian and my hometown is JB. During the week, I stay in Spore cos I work here. ;)

Back to the topic, there're lots of kinds of reactions against the West fr the earliest times when they came sailing over and began imposing their order on the rest of the world. E.g. are like the Mahdi and his followers' uprising in the Sudan, the Acehnese war against the Dutch for a very long time and so on.

Only Japan and precious few others managed to meet the Western challenge.