Well for those of you that have been living under a rock or something DZ being forced to resign as he looked at the world builder.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=155170

Now do we restart the game and turn the cheat option on or or just we carry on with the game we have going?

Yes=Restart
No=Carry On
Abstain= Why vote? ;)

Restart with the no cheat option on.

I will refrain from voting for a bit.

On a point of order, we didn't decide via discussion what level of support this poll would need to have before it would be considered valid. That question might be moot if the vote goes big one way or the other. If it's a close vote then it could matter, since the Judiciary might then have to handle another tough review. We're up to the challenge of course, just a cautionary note about jumping into this type of decision. ;)

Also we didn't quite complete the discussion on using the style of mod which combines no-cheat and autolog. This pretty much forces my hand though on nailing down that topic. I will start a separate informational poll on what filesystem people have, to gauge the potential impact.

This compiled with the whole debate on government structure... I honestly don't care. I didn't even know that the game had begun until a few days after it had. There are very few discussions about the actual game (if I see one more politcal party thread...) and even fewer screenies. Not really the best way to keep people involved.

Carry on, everyone. No need to delay things any further due to my dumb @$$. :) I wasn't even planning to run for anything next term, so please don't factor me into it personally.

EDIT: And ironically, I can't even vote to keep this game going. Someone help me out here, will ya?

I voted no, the last thing we need after all that has been happening so far in the demogame is for a restart.

I've asked the Censor to review this poll, and determine if it's an official Initiative poll or not.

-- Ravensfire

It is very unfourtanate that DZ has pretty much left the DG but that doesn't mean that one mistake and event prompts us to restart. As BCLG100 said the last thing we want to do is restart after all thats happened.

I sometimes vote abstain if I either don't support either choice, or if I can't deside which one to support. I feel this is necissary, because if the final vote after two days is 2-2-0, some people might assume not enough people saw the vote. But if the vote is 2-2-20, then it's obvious people have seen the vote, but not many people have a hard conviction one way or the other. I also don't like people who don't vote in RL and then complain about the government. If you don't like either choice, write in someone. If 25% of the voters voted for a write-in, even if it wasn't the same write-in, it would send a message. If that same 25% don't vote, people just assume they were lazy or apathetic.

After all that we have struggled to go through already, before a save was even created, I can't see giving up now. Personally, I think restarting now is the same as if we restarted after we found we didn't like our start position.

Maybe we can just pretend that our SoW went out to meet some troops, but disapeared on the way back. I say it was the Mongols and we declare war right away. :p

Carry on, everyone. No need to delay things any further due to my dumb @$$. :) I wasn't even planning to run for anything next term, so please don't factor me into it personally.

EDIT: And ironically, I can't even vote to keep this game going. Someone help me out here, will ya?
DZ that's silly. You're a vet to the DG and it would be helpful to have you around.

Come on people it's 10 turns into a game where IIRC there's no prez and it's been a cluster from the start. I say do over.

Restart with the no cheat option on.

That is a very good idea imho.

As Censor, I hereby find this poll meets all requirements as being official and valid as a binding Initiative of the Citizen's Assembly. It shall take effect once the poll is closed.

I say RESTART ... and take the opportunity to revote for a prezident ... let's not get caught up in legal constitutional ammendment issues ...

We don't have a prezident ATM ... Why not revote I don't understand :confused:

It's only 10 turns ... RESTART
A player made a mistake and pressed a button ... this could happen again ... RESTART (with Cheat off)

Surely this is a no brainer ... it's a game people !!! ... lets have fun with it and explore this game in a supportive and entertaining environment.

We don't have a prezident ATM ... Why not revote I don't understand :confused:

That is incorrect, we do have a President. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=153599)

-- Ravensfire

Thanks for clarificaion :)

DZ: you can't vote since you were removed from the membership-group (on your own request, IIRC). ;)

Please re-request access to the group if you want to rejoin.

I would like to urge everyone to vote 'no' on restarting the game. NOT because I'm glad DZ's out (quite on the contrary actually) but simply, and I cannot believe not more people have made this point, because in reality you can't go back either. The world would be quite messy if you were born to poor parents somewhere in a shack in the middle of Africa, decide that you don't like your 'starting location' and restart your life until you're born to a rich family of noble blood.
This was one of the reasons we continued playing when fraud came to light and we could have started completely from scratch creating a new CoL, adopt a new form of government etc. But we didn't.
Also: People! We are living a legendary moment here! Can't you see? If we go on now, eventually we can look back and say 'remember the start? it was messy, it was bad, but look what rose from it all! all of us truly form a great nation!' If we simply restart, we can only tell the tale of CIV DG1 that never actually was to be...

I completely support what Gloriana has said above.

The only thing I see as important here is that Ctrl-S and Ctrl-W are to close. If we don't end this here and restart the game with No-Cheats on, we may end up with the next person seeing the game after 50, or a 100 turns!

Restart the game, not just to get DZ in again, but to avoid this further inside the game.

Two turn-chats lost is acceptable, Twenty is not.

I'm also researching a quick change in CustomAssets which would either change the hotkey for world builder to something other than ctrl-w, or open an "are you sure" popup.

Why would you press Ctrl-S? Isn't that the Save feature? Only the DP should be saving, and they have time to go the long route. (Esc, click Save in the menu) I guess I don't see the danger because I rarely use those fancy "shortcuts". How many times do people accidentally trigger the WB in their one player games?

... we didn't quite complete the discussion on using the style of mod which combines no-cheat and autolog ...

Careful with this. I found that selecting 'no cheat' didn't let any of my custom assets load - see here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3513885&postcount=1)

could a mod change my vote to yes, restart? i changed my mind because i don't want this incident to happen again. also, i think the no-cheat option should be on, so that affected my decision as well.

Changed - Rik

Careful with this. I found that selecting 'no cheat' didn't let any of my custom assets load - see here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3513885&postcount=1)
That's the purpose of "No cheating". There are game mechanics in all of those python files that effect game-play. If we want to use no-cheat, a standard game mod will have to be created and installed in your "Mods" folder. CustomAssets is just for personal preferences (ie: custom graphs, advisors, clocks, autolog, skins). Mods is for a standard set of custom files that cannot be altered. It was written this way presumably for competitions and such. Also the scenarios built into [civ4] are loaded from the Mods folder not the CustomAssets folder. That's how MinuteMen are in the American revolution scenario but not in the normal epic game.

About the mods, I just wanted to say a few things.

There are many people in this DemoGame which is very nice. The game has been only recently released but there are already many mods. Some players download not just a single mod but a few mods at once. Sometimes, these mods are harmless, sometimes they enable to look at some things which we are not supposed to know. Sometimes, the mods include modifications of the game rules and are pure cheats. This basically means, that some people who use various "not-so-harmless" mods can have some advantage over the people who don't use these mods and can "predict" how the game would develop due to knowledge of the map or other things which are not supposed to be known to players who use vanilla verision of patch 1.52. I'd hate to say this, but we can easily have a political situation when these people would turn themselves into sort of "prophets" while masking themselves as "just strong players". That would be a very unpleasant situation.

If the save is protected, yes, it cannot be opened with various mods. So, that everyone who opens the save would see the same thing.

All citizens are supposed to be equal. Why then give some citizens advantages over the others so that they can get more information about the game?

Of course, it might sound unjustified and rude, but not all citizens are as noble and open hearted as Donovan Zoi, indeed a seasoned Demogame and ISDG veteran. He honestly put himself in the line of fire and we all applaud to his sense of self-censoring and admire his great dignity. However, not everyone can be that strong and honest, lets face the truth here.

The game can be restarted with "no cheat" turned to on and this would ensure equal rights of all citizens.

If we want to use no-cheat, a standard game mod will have to be created and installed in your "Mods" folder.
Thx TB. I was having trouble with the mod discussed in my link (it was in my custom assets at the time) and I did load it into the MOD folder to test that out. At that time, I still couldn't get it to 'take' with no-cheat selected. However, since then, I have had my system re-imaged and some things reinstalled. I will test it out under the MOD folder and get back to you.

akots,

It doesn't take much to open the save, and play farther into the game to become a "great prophet". We cannot prevent cheating. Heck, we can just barely take it from "no effort" to "minimal effort".

The concept that "no cheat" will prevent cheating is a complete and utter fabrication. The people that want to cheat will continue to do so. We will be as likely to catch them as we would be now.

-- Ravensfire

Also akots, if someone is determined on cheating, they can always overwrite their MAIN game files, and even with No Cheat on, they can used modified rules for the game when they play (ie; set a tech to reveal the world early on and BINGO. Map revealed.) If someone really wants to cheat, No Cheat is not going to stop them.

I shall abstain from the madness! :p

Also akots, if someone is determined on cheating, they can always overwrite their MAIN game files, and even with No Cheat on, they can used modified rules for the game when they play ...

This would not work with password-protected save but indeed it might be too much trouble. What I am worried about here is that a DP (I'm really making a weird assumption) would open the save, accidentally hit world builder icon and then modify the save. That is unlikely possibility but still a possibility.

... It doesn't take much to open the save, and play farther into the game to become a "great prophet". ...

That would not work simply due to the fact that DP might move different units and order different builds as those who would try to play the save. Since there is a rather short increment of the played turns (10 now and may be less later in the game), that makes this kind of "looking forward" pretty much obsolete and useless. However, there is little point in arguing about it because essentially you are right, it does not prevent possible cheating completely. It just would make it less attractive and useful.

ravensfire, don't tell us it's "minimal" or even "no effort" to reveal a complete Large size map by just playing normally. We're talking about hours at least.

Ginger_Ale, what you're suggesting is something so sophisticated that at least 99% of us all players won't be able to do it.

I repeat, "Opportunity makes the thief."

I voted for No Cheat originally, hell I even re-started that poll because of the inflammatory language DS used. However, I did vote for continue playing now as I think thowing things out of the window is simply unresponsible - same principle as I voted for Flex originally but later defended the current Tri CoL.

ravensfire, don't tell us it's "minimal" or even "no effort" to reveal a complete Large size map by just playing normally. We're talking about hours at least.SO much effort there ... :rolleyes:

-- Ravensfire

That would not work simply due to the fact that DP might move different units and order different builds as those who would try to play the save. Since there is a rather short increment of the played turns (10 now and may be less later in the game), that makes this kind of "looking forward" pretty much obsolete and useless. However, there is little point in arguing about it because essentially you are right, it does not prevent possible cheating completely. It just would make it less attractive and useful.
I repeat, if someone wants to cheat, you cannot stop them in any way. If you want to put on blinders and blithy think you're protected from cheaters, go ahead.

I'll be right here laughing.

-- Ravensfire

I repeat, if someone wants to cheat, you cannot stop them in any way. If you want to put on blinders and blithy think you're protected from cheaters, go ahead.

I'll be right here laughing.

So, sense we can't stop people from murdering others... why bother, right?

I would like to urge everyone to vote 'no' on restarting the game. NOT because I'm glad DZ's out (quite on the contrary actually) but simply, and I cannot believe not more people have made this point, because in reality you can't go back either. The world would be quite messy if you were born to poor parents somewhere in a shack in the middle of Africa, decide that you don't like your 'starting location' and restart your life until you're born to a rich family of noble blood.
This was one of the reasons we continued playing when fraud came to light and we could have started completely from scratch creating a new CoL, adopt a new form of government etc. But we didn't.
Also: People! We are living a legendary moment here! Can't you see? If we go on now, eventually we can look back and say 'remember the start? it was messy, it was bad, but look what rose from it all! all of us truly form a great nation!' If we simply restart, we can only tell the tale of CIV DG1 that never actually was to be...

So, we should just continue the trip, even with a flat tire? This is not something that will just be gone one day. How many "honest" players must we lose? How would you feel if your government let you die, just because they thought the method used to save you is "unrealistic?" This is not a real-world government, we must serve our citizens (and in a nation this small.. every one of them). We use any method possible to serve our citizens, every method. Trying to make things "real" when were playing a game causes more problems than it solves.

I repeat, if someone wants to cheat, you cannot stop them in any way. If you want to put on blinders and blithy think you're protected from cheaters, go ahead. ...

Well, there were a few instances of badly implemented open cheating already in this DemoGame which has been barely started. more is to be expected with more people joining and the game progressing to more advanced and interesting stages.

What you are saying is that moderators were wrong when they have found and exterminated this cheating since in your opinion there is no point to fight against these examples of bizzare behavior and it is better just sit and laugh at somebody who wants to fight against it by whatever means are available.

I find this position of your completely unacceptable and am highly disappointed in this point of view taken by an important government official.

Nobody is safe from cheating. The problem is do the citizens want to take certain measures which can be reasonably taken to minimize the risks? IMHO, yes. And I would mean any point of view which says "no" in this issue as unfair to most of the citizens thus endangering the fairness and spirit of the game itself and of the DemoGame as well.

akots,

Have I *EVER* said that I condone cheating? No, I haven't, and yet that's exactly what you insinuate. That's rather poor.

My viewpoint is simple - restarting the game with no cheat enabled will not reduce the chance of someone that wants to cheat. There are numerous examples, in this thread, of how a person can, without significant effort, cheat.

We should treat this exactly as we have in the past. Sanction the player if knowledge has been released, request they not participate in game discussions until their knowledge has been revealed in the game, and we keep going.

Not once, NOT ONCE, have I ever suggested cheating is acceptable. I have said, and will continue to say, that No Cheat will not prevent cheating.

-- Ravensfire

I have a technical question about this poll.

The poll question asks, "Restart or not? (Yes / No / Abstain)", but the initial post asks "Now do we restart the game and turn the cheat option on or or just we carry on with the game we have going?"

Those two question do not match. Does "Yes" now refer to restarting the game only or restarting *and* setting the No Cheat option both? How is someone supposed to vote if he wants the game to restart (because of DZ and the office he holds, let's say) but once again with No Cheat option off?

Doesn't the wording of this poll violate CoL 3.A.II.A "The description and initial post for all official polls should be stated in a clear and neutral manner" and CoL 3.A.II.B "[...] and how the results will be interpreted should also be in the initial post"?

@Censor: Did you check this when you confirmed the poll as official?

@Justices: Please prepare yourselves, probability of incoming JR request is high. ;)

Not once, NOT ONCE, have I ever suggested cheating is acceptable. I have said, and will continue to say, that No Cheat will not prevent cheating.

Not once has anybody suggested the issue at hand would be preventing cheating in the first place. It's about *reducing* cheating and preventing cheat-like *accidents*.

That said, I'm still against restarting, just for a different reason than you.

@Ravensfire:

I have not insinuated anything. If you read the posts of mine, I do imply what I have implied and nothing else in these posts. Just repeating again that if somebody wants to implement certain measure to make cheating more difficult or less attractive for the citizens, why would you oppose these measures? That is all what I wanted to say and there cannot be any misinterpretation of this imho. You, on the other hand, might find these measures useless. Now I'm going to ask another question which is the reason why you find it useless. That you would have answered by thinking that these measures are only partial solution of the problem. Well, I then repeat again that even partial solution is better than no solution at all trying to ingnore the problem. Strider above also have noted the similarly important aspect.

Of course, one can say that this is the first DemoGame of Civ4 and we have to acquire certain experience for this first game before clarifying possible solutions to the problem and actual severity of the problem. That is a valid argument. I and probably all other citizens have little or no idea on how this would turn out further in the game. Now, what if Donovan Zoi would not have been an honest person and would have hidden the fact and would have provided some "specific insight" into the game? How this would sound later on when everyone finds out? That is my main concern.

Now, we have an incident here. We can make a choice either to disregard this incident and consider that nothing happened or we can adapt to this experience and make sure that it is not repeated. Let me put it this way by using an ancient Roman saying authored by Ciceron (Marcus Tullius):
"Cujusvis hominis est errare; nullius, nisi insipientis in errore perseverare".

Wow, once again we have a question which divides the people right down the middle.

I'm going to ask another question in another poll -- that question is not going to affect the validity of this poll, but it might affect how we decide to proceed. :crazyeye:

In the event of a tie poll, no change will be made correct? Then it is anyone who wishes to repolls duty to do so, Also correct?

But I have to wonder if we should make it require a 2/3 vote since it is something so powerful and game changeing. Also impeachments require 2/3 vote and this is sorta like impeaching the current game.

In the event of a tie poll, no change will be made correct? Then it is anyone who wishes to repolls duty to do so, Also correct?

But I have to wonder if we should make it require a 2/3 vote since it is something so powerful and game changeing. Also impeachments require 2/3 vote and this is sorta like impeaching the current game.

This is kinda hard to answer -- your friendly judiciary is likely to have more work this month. :eek:

In the event of a tie poll, no change will be made correct? Then it is anyone who wishes to repolls duty to do so, Also correct?

But I have to wonder if we should make it require a 2/3 vote since it is something so powerful and game changeing. Also impeachments require 2/3 vote and this is sorta like impeaching the current game.
I think it should be a simple majority, however, either way I don't think this poll can be considered valid beacuse:
1. As blkbird pointed out, it includes the additional clause about enabling no cheat
2. It doesn't state the percent required for approval/that percent hasn't been decided upon

Unless I've missed something, it seems to me that this poll is pretty clear, all as outlined in the first post.

Without the no-cheat clause, this poll basically becomes a decision on whether or not to allow DZ participation in the game. The poll and its decision could then be considered unfair, as it'd basically be an exception being made for a prominent citizen. What if some poor new citizen made the same mistake fifty turns into the game? Would we reset again? Besides, given that this issue is contentious as it is, another poll may be the best way to redecide the no-cheat issue.

The required approval is basically implied - the majority wins. This type of decision obviously doesn't appear anywhere in our laws so far as I'm aware, and because no special condition about interpretation or needed requirements was stated when this poll began.

That would not work simply due to the fact that DP might move different units and order different builds as those who would try to play the save. Since there is a rather short increment of the played turns (10 now and may be less later in the game), that makes this kind of "looking forward" pretty much obsolete and useless. However, there is little point in arguing about it because essentially you are right, it does not prevent possible cheating completely. It just would make it less attractive and useful.

DZ saw the entire world. All someone has to do is load the save, forfeit, and they can see the same thing. Having "No Cheat" on will not stop someone from intentionally revealing the same info DZ currently has. It will just stop people from getting the info by accidentally hitting Ctl-W.

I don't think a password would work, either. Since every officer and deputy is allowed to look at the save to obtain info, you would be passing the password to a lot of people. Add in the fact that every month the officers and deputies could change, it would only leave a small group of people without access to the save.

The only way to trully prevent this in the future is to elect a permenant player to keep the game on their computer, and only they can play it. But then what happens when they make the same mistake?

this poll basically becomes a decision on whether or not to allow DZ participation in the game. The poll and its decision could then be considered unfair, as it'd basically be an exception being made for a prominent citizen. What if some poor new citizen made the same mistake fifty turns into the game? Would we reset again?

What happens if I were to accidentally do something in the save in turn 75? Let's say I'm looking at the save and I accidentally hit a key on my keyboard and reveal something. Will everyone want to restart the entire game just so I can keep playing. I'm not trying to offend DZ, I'm just throwing that out there as a what if. Is DZ a more important citizen in our Democracy than anyone else?

We all agree that someone with bad intent can cheat, no matter what option we choose. So that point is not important.
The "No cheat" option switched on is thus about preventing more accidents, as DZ has shown, can happen. The price to pay for this is to loose the autolog. That price is a low price to pay, IMHO. Especially if you consider that this creates a small threshold for citizens to make "accidental cheating" 1 tiny bit less attractive.

I too am interested at Ravensfire's answer to Akots' question. For me it's a no brainer. Having "No cheat" option off is the same as saying: "we welcome accidents and incidents". I don't welcome them so "No cheat" should be ON.
Edit: thanks Darkness ...

I too am interested at Ravensfire's answer to Akots' question. For me it's a no brainer. Having "No cheat" option off is the same as saying: "we welcome accidents and incidents". I don't welcome them so "No cheat" should be off.

:confused:

You mean it should be on, right? ;)

Yes. Stop cheating as much as possible; NO CHEAT ON !

I would like to humbly thank everyone for the support shown to me in this thread. However, I still find it imperative that we soldier on with the current game at hand. If we do not, then we will lose a vital opportunity to prove ourselves as a democracy.

Like it or not, we as a people decided early in the game to waive the No Cheat option to use the AutoLog function, and we have already atarted a game under those constructs. In our history, I don't believe we have ever tossed out the results of a vested game due to the unfortunate actions of one person. And I certainly do not want that person to be me.

This will be the second poll in less than a month where my vote in a controversial decision poll goes against my initial choice. And I truly believe that maintaining a game in progress is at least equal to recognizing a ratified law of the land. My mindset in both cases is that time must march on; it cannot be erased.

I will be asking the mods to reinstate my group priviledges for this vote. We can decide later on my personal fate, but let's not allow my actions to derail the game in progress.

After further review, I'm hereby changing my vote from Abstain, to Yes.

BTW, shouldn't noms be going up? Even if we start over, it'll be Feb. 1st when we can start. (heh, my birthday...)

[threadjack]
Who does the nomination threads? the Censor or deputy?
[/treadjack]

The price to pay for this is to loose the autolog.

Actually we have a way to have both no-cheat and autolog, so even that issue has dropped in importance. An installed mod (based on HOF mod thanks to Dianthus et al) can be installed by anyone who wants to load the save, and we can indeed have both options. The only person we know of who might not be able to load saves using it (Furiey) has another technical problem which would give her spoiler info if her screen was scrolled, either intentionally or accidentally.

For many people the question is still one of do-overs. We already faced a do-over question and decided in favor of continuing on in that case. Is it dangerous -- you bet it is. But as many people have asked me in other discussions, aren't a lot of us here because we want that adversity?

I can also offer a voluntary solution to the CTRL-W problem. It should be possible to either change that key combo or make a confirmation popup window appear. It's voluntary because people would have to install it into customAssets to get protection. This isn't a very good solution (better to get it into a patch) but if "play on" wins we should think about doing it.

IMO, unintentional cheating as it occured is clearly something that's bad for the individual but doesn't have any implications as long as that citizen doesn't use the data gathered.

Any citizens that "cheats" by human error has to live with that fact and the consequences thereof. For example, in an occasion in which anyone sees the map very early throughout the game this citizen should stay away from map related tasks of the game and even voting as long as that data is so much devalued (our civ has acquired information on all opponents' locations and most of the map) that s/he can join again as a full citizen. Believe me when I say that person that cheats unintentionally has - at that later point of play - no different knowledge than all the other.

Nonetheless, s/he could act in the judiciary that deal with meta game (gameplay) and not game issues.

Later on, your, sorry my, brain could not use any data from a dead screen. The only crucial information from a crowded map is the position of staged war units during a war. If we are in a war with that civ, I had to stay away till that info is devalued, too, e.g. we captured that city, that particular battle is over, etc.

Regardless of what I said about this unintentional "cheating", people have known and certainly know now that handling the save is "dangerous". A discussion/poll by our people has already shown the problems of the no-cheat option, so I for my part think we have to live with that choice.

I'm sorry for anyone that cheats unintentionally and therefore misses (partially) out on this first [civ4] demo game.

I voted NO.

18 hours to go, 20 - 20 - 4

Interesting.

-- Ravensfire

Bengeance has asked to have his 'no' vote switched to a 'yes' vote. (via email) I've told him to post in here to confirm it.

CT,

Could you please change my vote from No to Yes for the restart. I have given this more consideration and a restart would probably be the best thing.

Bengeance

Bengeance has asked to have his 'no' vote switched to a 'yes' vote. (via email) I've told him to post in here to confirm it.

Philisophical question: Why do the vote-switchers always seem to gravitate to the easy way out? :hmm: :lol:

CT, do you think you can reactivate my membership so I have a chance to vote on this matter? I am sure you have seen my request by now.

Vote no and give the Cage Match a new lease on life. :D

Restart is a waste of time. Vote "no" and let's get on with the game.

I feel that we should not restart.

I wish to change my vote from no restart to yes restart. I have thought about it quite a bit and the sacrifice in the short term is not as bad as the potential for misfortune and abuse in the long term.

Vote changed - Rik

After further review, I'm hereby changing my vote from Abstain, to Yes.

BTW, shouldn't noms be going up? Even if we start over, it'll be Feb. 1st when we can start. (heh, my birthday...)
Umm...can a mod change Chieftess' vote. It still shows abtain. :D

I'm pretty sure that when the mods change a vote the name stays with the original vote but the number of votes changes. My name still appears in the no restart list, but it has been changed to restart.

Umm...can a mod change Chieftess' vote. It still shows abtain. :D

No more changing unwarranted votes, please. The names don't carry over from the original vote; the counts are merely adjusted.

Incidentally, that brings up an interesting point. If you count the names for original intention, you get the following:

19 (Yes) / 26 (No) / 5 (Abstain) = 50 votes

However, the count currently stands at:

23 (Yes) / 22 (No) / 4 (Abstain) + 49 votes :hmm:

I have only seen record of three vote changes in this thread. Two from No to Yes (greekguy, Bengeange) and one from Abstain to Yes (Chieftess). Once these changes are made, the current total should be:

22 (Yes) / 24 (No) / 4 (Abstain)

Can someone please tell me what happened with the lost vote? Also, it sounds like both CT and Rik may have adjusted the vote change for Bengeance.

Please resolve these errors as soon as possible.

DZ,

I don't think that the easy way out in this situation is the restart. It is clear that some people are very much opposed to it, just as some are very much in favor. The choice to restart says that we must lay aside a goodly portion of what has been done so far and start over. I don't think that is easy, but I do think that it is right. It'd be nice to have you actively involved, but hardly necessary for the game to go on. However, if we can have a game with autologging and no cheat enabled, I think this makes for a better experience overall and is worth a little sacrifice now.

DZ,

I don't think that the easy way out in this situation is the restart. It is clear that some people are very much opposed to it, just as some are very much in favor. The choice to restart says that we must lay aside a goodly portion of what has been done so far and start over. I don't think that is easy, but I do think that it is right. It'd be nice to have you actively involved, but hardly necessary for the game to go on. However, if we can have a game with autologging and no cheat enabled, I think this makes for a better experience overall and is worth a little sacrifice now.

Bengeance,

Let me give a real world example to clarify my position.

Let's just say that irrefutable evidence became available that stated without question that George W. Bush did not garner the electoral votes need to win the Presidential election in 2000. Would we be able to magically transport back to that year to start our lives anew under the new government? Though half of us would have their reasons of saying YES and the other half NO, the correct answer is: Of course not!

I have always felt that the same rules should apply regarding the DemoGame. Our world is already made for us. People in our capital of Boaring Wallow are awaiting our guidance; there is a vast new world out there that only one knucklehead knows about. In PBEM games, I know that sometimes the best move is to scrap a game when someone drops out or a certain exploit is used. However, in the DemoGame, our goal is to play through it using the resources we have at hand: our laws, our tenacity and the current game.

This is why I choose to label the option of restarting from scratch as "the easy way out" even though I respect the position of those who voted that way -- I meant no offense by that. Heck, I even voted originally for the No Cheat option before the game started. However, once the wheels are in motion, I choose to play by the rules we have in place at that time.

Hopefully a mod will stop by soon to validate the victory for No Restart, even though the poll results seem to currently state otherwise. This is the way it should be.

Admins, please address the irregularity discovered by DZ.

There may be some delay given that Rik Meleet is on GMT+1 (I think) and Chieftess is on GMT-5, and so they may not be online at the same time. Hopefully they will see this soon, compare notes on what votes have been changed, and announce the correct results.

Until then I suggest we continue with the election process. :D

Until then I suggest we continue with the election process. :D

I do want to suite my campagn platform to the result of this (plus eventually a JR).

A brief analysis -

greekguy - switch from "No" to "Yes"
Link to post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3611365&postcount=23)

Chieftess - switch from "Abstain" to "Yes"
Link to post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3614394&postcount=52)

Bengeance - switch from "No" to "Yes"
Link to post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3617187&postcount=57)

No other vote switch requests found.


Count by name
Yes: 19
No: 26
Abstain: 5

Total votes: 50

Adjusted counts
Yes: 22
No: 24
Abstain: 4

Total votes: 50


Total reported on poll
Yes: 23
No: 22
Abstain: 4

Total Votes: 49

-- Ravensfire

I'm pretty sure that when the mods change a vote the name stays with the original vote but the number of votes changes. My name still appears in the no restart list, but it has been changed to restart.

I think you are correct ... votes can only be added not taken away AFAIK

I do want to suite my campagn platform to the result of this (plus eventually a JR).

Does your JR depend on the result of the poll?

The delay is most likely to be measured in hours.

BTW, shouldn't noms be going up? Even if we start over, it'll be Feb. 1st when we can start. (heh, my birthday...)

Was that meant to be a subtle hint CT :D my gf's birthday that day as well so dont think i can afford to get you a present.

huh, Chieftesses birthday is Feb 1st, and your girlfriedss birthday is feb 1st, huh, hm, :mischief: *ahem* *ahem*

:joke:

But seriuosly, the disparaty needs to be checked out. I think we shouldn't restart, and DZ should participate UNLESS his magical wisdom would interfere. Or we could build him the oracle and worship him until he sends us answers!!

huh, Chieftesses birthday is Feb 1st, and your girlfriedss birthday is feb 1st, huh, hm, :mischief: *ahem* *ahem*

:joke:

But seriuosly, the disparaty needs to be checked out. I think we shouldn't restart, and DZ should participate UNLESS his magical wisdom would interfere. Or we could build him the oracle and worship him until he sends us answers!!
:lol: well unless CT has been lying to everyone and does infact live in the UK and is 16 then i guess so.

I copied this from the Instruction thread to push any discussion here, and not there. I am the current DP, and want to make sure everyone is aware of my intentions.

Both of the options below are dependant on a moderator reporting on the issues noted by DZ. I do invite other citizens to do the same checking DZ and others have done, and report your results. There could be messages sent to a mod to change a vote, which is why I prefer they respond.

If they have not responded by the time the game session is scheduled to start, I will delay up to one hour, then play the turn. My reasoning is simple - if the results shown ARE accurate, then there is no need to play the save, no need to spur any further debate if something extremely favorable shows up.

Should "No, keep going" be the decision
I will start the game session at 6:30 pm, CST. Due to a borrowed laptop for unrelated tested, I will be able to switch between Civ 4 and IRC. Discussion will be kept on target - please keep everything else to a minimum!

Should "Yes, restart" be chosen
Game session will be CANCELLED to determine next course of action.

Thanks,
-- Ravensfire

EDIT: No demogame channel anymore ...

Chieftess - switch from "Abstain" to "Yes"
Link to post

Bengeance - switch from "No" to "Yes"
Link to post


These are the two that I've changed. I'm not sure if Rik changed any, though.

Bengeance, did you pm both me and Rik?

Is it necessary at all to figure out how the numbers have been twisted? We can reconstruct the correct result from the public record of the voting, as demonstrated, can we not?

These are the two that I've changed. I'm not sure if Rik changed any, though.

Bengeance, did you pm both me and Rik?

No, I only PM'ed you about changing the vote, but I did post in the thread as you suggested. I believe that Rik saw it and may have changed it even though you had already done it.

Does that mean we don't restart! :dance: :thanx: :beer: :worship: :wavey:

Ok, votes re-adjusted. Looks like Rik and I doubled over eachother.


The game is on!

We would do Florida proud. :smug:

*hushed tone* THere is an anceint legend of a tribe of Mod worshiperes who tried to restart the world. They didnt' and were happy, and they llived in harmony with their mods until the end of time!


-yay
Didn''t mean to troll
Warned. Trolling.

A brief analysis -

greekguy - switch from "No" to "Yes"
Link to post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3611365&postcount=23)

Chieftess - switch from "Abstain" to "Yes"
Link to post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3614394&postcount=52)

Bengeance - switch from "No" to "Yes"
Link to post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3617187&postcount=57)

No other vote switch requests found.


Count by name
Yes: 19
No: 26
Abstain: 5

Total votes: 50

Adjusted counts
Yes: 22
No: 24
Abstain: 4

Total votes: 50


Total reported on poll
Yes: 23
No: 22
Abstain: 4

Total Votes: 49

-- RavensfireThat's why I like public polls, it gives the citizens a way to point out irregularities.

Chieftess: As far as I know I noted all the changes I made.

That's why I like public polls, it gives the citizens a way to point out irregularities.

I like the good old days when we wouldn't let people change their votes.

Well no is the deciding vote then, so do we carry on?

Well no is the deciding vote then, so do we carry on?

Already did - turn was played last night starting at 6:30.

-- Ravensfire

Yeah, I can't go back to the polls later in the day and change my vote in RL. Just make it so people can't change their votes. If you're not sure right now, wait to cast your vote. It (usually) tells you when the poll will close.

Yeah, I can't go back to the polls later in the day and change my vote in RL. Just make it so people can't change their votes. If you're not sure right now, wait to cast your vote. It (usually) tells you when the poll will close.
actually it always tells you when it ends, if there is nothing there that means it never ends

That's what I meant by the usually, because some polls don't close. Most of the official ones in the Demo game do, but I didn't want to paint into a corner.

All polls in the demogame which arnt information seeking have to have a time limit or we could be here for weeks waiting for a decision.