I realise there are now quite a few Civic mods out there, not least Armandeus' Balanced Civics, which looks very well thought out. However, there's still a number of big problems I personally have with the way Civics are represented in the game:

1) Most of the time there appears to be a clear indication of what Firaxis wants us to believe is a "right" Civic and a "wrong" Civic. A good (if extreme) example would be the balance between the Labour Civics Slavery and Emancipation. Slavery gives a small bonus that causes a huge amount of unhappiness for a very long time, which can be more comfortably achieved through Universal Suffrage. Emancipation, however, gives a penalty to all Civs without it. Although modern perceptions already tend towards the same perceptions that Slavery is wrong and Emancipation is right, Civ4 is a game, and thus pure fantasy, and if I want my Civilization to be ruthless slavers, I think I should be able to do so without being punished for it.

2) Because the Civics are unbalanced, I personally tend to pick them not because I want them as part of my culture, but because they're strategically better. I personally would prefer a Pagan culture to one with an Organized Religion, for example, but I'll put up with a turn of Anarchy for Organized Religion simply for the benefits it gives. I always take Universal Suffrage when I'm rich enough, because the ability to hurry production for money is invaluable, especially during war time.

3) Some of the Civics don't make sense in the category they're placed in. Free Speech is not a legal philosophy that can sum up a whole culture. Free Speech may be a facet represented in a culture's legal system, and may in fact be a primary part of that culture's identity - but it is not a legal system in itself. Similarly, Environmentalism is not an economic principle, nor Pacifism a necessarily religious one.

4) Some Civics within a category might not be mutually exclusive. A Theocracy requires an Organized Religion to head it, but in the game they are represented as separate principles entirely. The worst offender is the Legal field, where a country could in real life have Nationhood (be a nation and identity as such), Free Speech (have no government intervention in the vocal rights of the citizen), and Bureaucracy (have a number of bureaus and departments within the government semi-independanty of the central government). America (theoretically) practices all three of these, but in the game it's one or the other.

Because of these reasons, I'm trying to form a new Civic list without these problems. I am not sure how successful I'll be, but it's worth a try. I've made a start, but there are some gaps and some problems, but I think with some input we could have something pretty good.

Here's what I have so far:



GOVERNMENT
Anarchism
(I felt that Despotism - now Totalitarianism, below - was already a valid and complex form of government, rather than a primative absence of organized government. Instead, Anarchism has taken its place)
No Upkeep

Totalitarianism
(An organized form of Despotism, in which a dictator wields supreme power)
High Upkeep (to represent the cost of propaganda, policing, and suchlike)
-25% War Weariness (those who complain too loudly disapear)
50% Chance of no Anarchy for Civic changes while this Civic is in effect (to represent that for such a government, any proposed changes go ahead without need for public approval or acceptance. Anarchy DOES take place, however, when Totalitarianism is changed for something else)
-50% Great Person Birth Rate (restrictive for brilliant minds)
REQUIRES: (I'm tempted to go with Communism or Fascism, but that's a long way to wait for a government type that has existed for thousands of years)

Hereditary Rule
Medium Upkeep
+3 Commerce in Capital (royals tend to be quite good at pouring money back into the system, even if they do then reclaim it with heavy taxation)
+2 Happiness per City if State Religion is in effect (to represent deference to a royal due to divine right (the philosophy, not the tech))
REQUIRES: Monarchy

Universal Suffrage
Medium Upkeep
+2 Happiness per City
+1 Commerce, +1 Production from Cottage, Hamlet, Village, Town (free societies lend themselves better to the needs of the people, who benefit through productivity (the people represented through towns and the like)
REQUIRES: Democracy

Utopianism
(This is a more-or-less science-fictional kind of perfect government, which promotes harmony with nature and one's fellow man and so on)
High Upkeep (love and happiness don't come cheap!)
+3 Happiness per City
+100% Culture in all Cities (through greater freedom of expression, culture improves)
+1 Production from Forest, Jungle (representing a newfound connection with nature, and giving an incentive not to destroy it for a one time production bonus!)
+100% War Weariness (because love and happiness doesn't come from killing people)
REQUIRES: (As this is a kind of government that has not yet been achieved by any nation, finding a technology to represent it seems difficult. Future Tech seems like the only one for it)

LEGAL
Barbarism
Low Upkeep

Privilege
(Not quite like Vassalage, which is not just a legal principle, but more of an economic model, Privilege refers to "private law", where the social elite determine the rights of the people below them)
Low Upkeep (it doesn't take much government intervention, as laws are made up as is fitting to the upper classes)
+1 Happiness per 10 Commerce (to represent 10% of the earning popuation as upper class, benefiting from the efforts of the working class)
REQUIRES: (no idea)

Codified Law
(I have no idea for anything under here, but Codified Law seems like a valid legal philosophy that isn't represented any other way)
REQUIRES: Code of Laws (duh)

Mass Surveillance
(This is a 1984-style legal form where criminal activity is kept impossible due to the constant prying eyes of the government!)
High Upkeep (it costs a lot for Big Brother to keep watching you)
No Unhappiness (unhappiness is thoughtcrime)
+1 Production per 2 Commerce in a City (I honestly actually can't remember what I was thinking when I put this one in now. Oh well)
-50% Culture (removing personal liberties to such an extent will seriously harm the cultural output of a civilization)
REQUIRES: Fiber Optics (or maybe Computers)

- (need one more)


LABOUR
Tribalism
Low Upkeep

Slavery
Low Upkeep
+1 Commerce, +1 Production per 2 Population in all Cities (representing the buying and selling of slaves, and the workload of the slaves, for every other member of the population that can afford them)
REQUIRES: (Bronze Working doesn't seem quite right, but there doesn't seem to be anything better)

Serfdom
(Pretty much as it already exists)
Low Upkeep
Workers build Improvements 50% faster
REQUIRES: Feudalism

Caste System
Medium Upkeep
+2 Commerce per 3 Population in all Cities
+2 Production per 3 Population in all Cities
+2 Research per 3 Population in all Cities
(Having unlimited Specialists of certain types seemed potentially unbalancing, and also pretty inconvinient for players like me prefer to ignore the routine of managing Specialists. Instead, each Population improves the Commerce, Production or Research of the City automatically)
REQUIRES: (Code of Laws still fits, but since that's also now the reqirement for Codified Law, I'm not entirely sure)

Emancipation
Low Upkeep
+3 Specialists in all Cities (to represent how members of society can follow any field, the types of Specialist are not specified)
REQUIRES: Constitution (a nation my support Emancipation without any public voting system, so Democracy is not used for this)

ECONOMY
Decentralization
No Upkeep

Vassalage
(In Medieval Europe, the feudal system was a simple way to set up a form of economy through dividing the land into easily ruled segments, so this is an economic Civic now, not a Legal Civic.
Low Upkeep
-20% City Distance Maintenance Cost (as fealty is sworn from lord to greater lord to ruler, it is less the role of the leader to maintain power in the entire civilization, just over his lords)
+1 Food, -1 Commerce from Hamlets, Villages (such a system establishes support for the people, but without much of a money-based economy. Towns, however, act more like miniature cities, and do not produce much food)
REQUIRES: Feudalism

- (need one more)

State Property
(As this is basically a communist economy, there aren't actually any good points that I can even think of. I would like to include it, however, to keep a socialist option open, but if I base it on any real life examples, it falls apart. Help?)
REQUIRES: Communism

Free Market
Low Upkeep
+2 Trade Routes per City
REQUIRES: Economics


RELIGION
-
(I don't want to call the pre-civilized religious Civic "Paganism", because Paganism itself is a valid set of religions. I don't think humans were ever without a kind of spiritual belief system though, so this can't be "Atheism" either)
No Upkeep
No State Religion (because with a State Religion, it will no longer be "Pagan" or whatever)

- (need one more)

Theocracy
Medium Upkeep
Requires State Religion (of course)
+2 Happiness to Cities with State Religion
No Non-State Religion Spread
REQUIRES: Theology

State Atheism
(I wanted an option for those of us who aren't keen on having religion as a big part of their culture. There are some serious issues that come with denying religion to ones people, but in any suitably developed society, this Civic can give some huge matereal payoffs)
Low Upkeep
No State Religion
+1 Unhappiness per Religion in a City
-10% Culture (religion has always had a cultural effect, and removing it would hurt quite a bit culturally)
+3 Commerce, Food, Production per Improvement (because of the lack of a religious distraction, the people are able to dedicate themselves to contributing to the non-religious part of society, or rather, the government)
REQUIRES: (no idea)

Religious Tolerance
Religious Tolerance is not the same as Free Religion. While Free Religion indicates total no government involvement in religion at all, Religious Tolerance allows a State Religion, and thus a governed input on religion. Those who want total seperation of church and state can simple declare no State Religion, which will allow an additional Non-State Religion, and thus another +10 Culture)
No Upkeep
+1 Happiness per Religion in a City
+10 Culture per Non-State Religion in a City
REQUIRES: Liberalism



Effects not represented here, such as Draft and Hurry, will be unlocked automatically with the right Tech:

Draft: Nationalism
Hurry (sacrifice Population): Bronze Working
Hurry (pay gold): Democracy

So, what do people think?

1st and foremost that Zulu mod kicks ass :goodjob:

Concerning civics, I think that people are realizing the vanilla civics leave much to be desired. They are also realizing they want to implement their own ideas about civics.

I modded mine so you have a total of 45. the five categories have 9 civics per and they are varied. So, social engineering is possible. The great thing for me was to make my civics and see how the AI's mixed and matched to social engineer their respective civs. Really fun stuff.

I encourage everyone to get into this aspect of the modding world, because you can really tailor your game to perform some really nice social engineering and the AI does as well given the right choices.

One thing I learned while doing mine was to view civics as more or less beneficial vs penalties and negative features. The AI seemed to handle that approach better by using a variety of civics instead of piling onto the one best option;)

You seem to have a nice set here, I just think you should add more!

like your thinking. :)

only problem with anarchism is by def it is completely without law... mabey change it to Autocracy: Rule by a single individual who wields unlimited power. While an emperor may rise to power due to hereditary lines, but is referred to as an autocrat rather than a monarch because his power overshadows his bloodline.

and what about a limited monarchy, like the UK?

Confederacy would be interesting , there should also be a few plays on republic (modern & ancient greece)

Same with Federal republic..

Polity (for Utopi???):Rule by the people. Every law and decision are put to a vote. truest form of democracy, but only works in a limited fashion over small populations.

State Atheism shouldnt cause unhappiness with religions, not all religions are strongly opposed against atheism - even if its a heresy for them - Buddhism is an atheistic religion and its known that Judaism and Hinduism doesnt have problems with State Atheism either (unless being unable to practice it). In Stalin's time, which was full state atheist, you got certain right if being Orthodox, Muslim (Silly since we would expect Stalin to persucute all the muslims for the role of the Azerbedijans and some Dagestani's in the Waffen SS) or Buddhist.

Thanks for the replies guys.

RED_DIAMOND: Thanks for checking out the Zulu mod! Also, your Civics sound pretty cool, and I would be pretty happy at adding more Civics to my list, but I'm happier with fewer but more distinct options. :)

khakhan007: I see what you mean about Anarchism. To be honest, I was a bit dubious about the name. However, surely Autocracy is along the same lines as Totalitarianism or Despotism?

A limited monarchy option would be pretty cool, as would some of your other suggestions. However, I think the only way to truly get that sort of varsitility without overloading the game with Civics would be to allow options that can be selected under each Civic, as a sort of minor reform series of checkboxes. While I'm sure that can be done, and I'd like to see it done, I think I'm a little behind that point in skill.

Kaiserguard: Your points are very interesting. I wonder, however, how I can then balance State Atheism. I was kind of assume a state that forces Atheism in the same way that Theocracies force their religions on people.

Why not call "paganism" shamanism or something

Awesome, Mattastic! Civics is one of my biggest gripes with Civ 4 (along with the shallowness of Religion). I really want to mod civics, but I simply don't have the time. So, I am looking to others to find something that I like.

Please check out the thread I started in which a very long but great discussion exists concerning modifying Civics. You may get some great ideas from it!

Civics: Need Modification? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=137032)

Khakhan007: I love the "Shamanism" suggestion! I'll certainly implement that!

Colonel Kraken: Thanks for the link to that thread. I haven't had time to have a really good look at it, but I am certain it will be very useful!