While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.

(*) Please read the >> HOF rules << (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/rules.php) BEFORE playing!


Any submissions meeting the following criteria will be considered Gauntlet entries:

Difficulty: Noble
Mapsize: Large
Victory: Diplomatic (though ALL victory conditions must be enabled!)
Starting Era: Any
Speed: Normal
Submitted on or before: Feb 9th.


Whichever game has the earliest finish date will be declared the victor. The winner (and settings for the next Gauntlet) will be announced with the next Hall of Fame update.

While each map can only be played once, players are more than welcome to generate new maps and submit multiple games. Also, as everyone is playing their own distinct maps, there is no need for spoiler limitation within the forum. In fact, we encourage detailed posting of strategy and gameplay, although all conversation about this Guantlet should stay within this thread.

Any games not finished before the submission cutoff may still be submitted to the Hall of Fame as general entries.

New players:
Please note that we need two files for Hall of Fame submissions. A save from your initial 4000bc turn, and the turn after you win. For the last file, when you win the game, you'll be displayed your sequence of victory screens and then be prompted if you wish to exit or play "just a few more turns". Select just a few more turns, and then save the game immediately without playing further.

Winning Game Prediction:

Tropical Balanced Ancient Marathon
Victoria VS Mansa Musa, Hatshepsut, Cyrus, Asoka, Frederick
Diplomatic Victory, 700AD

- Bill

Tropical Balanced Ancient Marathon- Bill
Except of course we're restricting to just Normal gamespeed this time, which I should probably emphasize.

Hmm. Right. Bump predicted finish date up 200 years then.

- Bill

Just played with your settings. Worked well, I think Ghandi may be a better opponent, they could never keep up with me at all. Anyway, I think 700 is still the goal time, even on normal speed. I achieved 1020 and I SHOULD have gotten 950 but forgot that I could rush buy the rest of the UN after I used my GE. I think my next try I can get 900 pretty easily, so by the time the gauntlet is over, 700 should be doable.

I had a funny research path that I can refine later.

bronze-pottery-mysticism(chop rush stonehenge)-masonry(build pyramids)-poly-priesthood(start oracle)-mono-alphabet-theology(use your great prophet from stonehenge :) - paper(oracle)-electricity-liberalism-radio(with liberalism)-mass media

I was worried about the opponents beating me to the Oracle but on noble it isn't anything to worry about. Next time I am going bronze-pottery-myst-masonry-alphabet-theo-paper-electricity-liberalism-radio-mass media.

Sweet, this will be my first gauntlet. Since I've played nothing but diplo games lately, to submit to the HOF. My finishes have been getting better, but I'm nowhere NEAR 900 ad. :blush: I just finished my best one, and it was 1200 or so, but that was a small map, on marathon speed. Normal speed's gonna be much harder. Good luck all. :)

Nice to see that each gauntlet is a completely different victory condition. I am thinking of cottage spamming early to maximize the tech pace and push hard to the UN. Then at some point switch over to all farms to maximize my population. On Noble difficulty, it should be easy to foster good relations with the AI since you should have a good tech lead.

I am going to try a game tonight. I'll report back my results.

700 AD? Wow you guys must be a hell of alot better at teching up.... I just finished a 1600 AD win on a Pangaea, and I can't see how I could have gone ANY faster. Are you just completely ignoring all other techs??? I suppose that might be a good way to go, but from my line of reasoning I thought it might go a little bit faster if I had some infrastructure (especially in case the AI decides it wants to start a war).

Who are the AIs that you set yourselves up against, and why? Maybe if I could find a more pacifist group of enemies, things might go more smoothly.

It probably didn't help that somehow my opponents beat me to the Oracle :/ One of only 2 non-religion wonders that the AI managed to finish first too....

700 AD will be the goal finish date. I just finished in 870 and was majorly hurt that I never got a great engineer for the UN. Had to spend 25 turns chop rushing it then buying the rest. I also didn't have any stone or marble, both would have helped in the early game.

Anyway, I am using the opponents that Blue mentioned in the beginning. Asoka, Cyrus, Frederick, Hatty, and Mansa. I think putting Ghandi in for someone on there may be a better choice though. Even though Cyrus is the best techer he won't trade iron working very easily which is the only real tech I want from them.

This time I played as Lizzie and I think it will be the best choice again. I never needed the extra health victoria would have provided and getting an extra GP helps.

The main point of any non-conquest victory is research. You want to get to the end tech as fast as you possibly can. The only important tech along the way is alphabet. Use that to trade for everything that isn't directly on the way to mass media.

I popped mysticism and wheel from huts but without those my tech path would have looked like this: bronze-masonry-mysticism-monotheism-pottery-priesthood-alphabet-theology(used prophet)-paper(used oracle)-electricity-liberalism-radio(liberalism)-mass media

I need to get to mysticism to build Stonehenge in your second city. Don't found a 3rd city yet. Then you have to beat everyone to monotheism (or ealier religion) to get your stonehenge city to be your holy city. Convert one of the citizens to a priest. With the great prophet points from both you will pop a phophet soon. On novice level you don't need cottages as early as you do with harder games so I put that near the end.

Have the Oracle working as soon as you can. If you get to alphabet before you get your great prophet, trade for meditation. If you don't, tech meditation after writing. When you get your GP use him to research theology. Then chop rush the oracle as fast as possible. Use the free tech for paper. This gives you a MAJOR advantage in shortening your tech path.

Now follow the basic strat of chop rushing settlers and workers. Found as many cities as you can and still keep your tech % decent. I founded 8 last game. Don't found more than 10 total. Chop rush the pyramids in the city that has access to stone or the one with the most trees. When your cities have a problem with happiness, switch to representation.

Cottage spam like crazy to get your tech rate up. Connect resources to keep happiness and health up. Trade for as many techs as you can. Give away what you can't trade with to keep everyone happy. As soon as you trade for currency, start trading your tech for 20-30 cash. Together with cottages this keeps me around 80-100% tech percentage by 1 AD.

Here is what I build in order: granaries, lighthouse(if on coast), library, monastery(for tech boost), temple or aquaduct if you need happiness/health, university once you get education, then wealth. You don't need anything else. (maybe a warrior for happiness if you get time early). Don't build any other wonders, you don't need them.

Hopefully you can get a great engineer from the pyramid city. Save him. If you get a great prophet, you can use him to found a holy shrine, do it in your city with the most cities of that religion for bonus money. With any other great people use them for research. Try and save or atleast maximize the amount of tech you get. And only try for things you need to get to mass media.

I tech philosophy and education early so I can get pacifism (for the cash not to convert religion) and universities. Then tech to electricity. Then tech liberalism, use that to get radio. Radio is the most expensive tech so that maximizes the gain. Then tech mass media. Use your great engineer to build the UN (or atleast part of it). Make sure to let the UN build 1 turn before trying ot buy it.

There you have it. Fairly easy sub 1000AD finish.

Let me know if you have any more questions.

BTW, if you go with the AI's listed or any of the other ones that aren't warmongers they will never declare war before 1000AD (almost never). If you are trading/giving away your techs they will never declare on you anyway. The opponents are so spread out on this map border problems don't start wars either. Don't build military and don't research military techs.

I only research the prerequisites to mass media with the exception of alphabet, philosophy, education, and liberalism. But the last three are cheaper to tech than to tech radio alone. So you are saving time by teching them, not to mention the extra cash from philo and uni's from education.

Ignore that date. I had it set on marathon speed :( and didn't change it. Will update what my time is on normal soon.

Ouch. Normal speed sucks. Just had a 1520 finish. The turn difference is huge on normal, I don't like it. I need to adjust my entire strategy for the speed change. I tried 8 cities and had maybe 50% of the cottages I wanted. I will probably only go with 4-5 cities, maybe less.

I need to try some things out, but I am thinking 1400 would be a decent goal for this gauntlet. Sub 1000 is impossible.

Just finished my first attempt, with a 1380 ad finish. It could have been quicker, I made a few mistakes, especially with religions. I played as Qin, and had all the same opponents listed above (Mansa, Fredrick, Asoka, Cyrus) except I had Elizabeth in place of Hatty.

I settled on spot and built 2 (and a half) warriors, until my city hit size 3, and then started churning out workers. Had a whole lot of forest, so chop rushing the workers snowballed, until I had about 6, and then I chop rushed 3 settlers. Popped a lot of huts, but only one gave me a tech, ironworking.

My teching went something like - bronze working, mysticism, wheel, pottery, writing. I didn't go for alphabet until I finished code of laws, and I used the Oracle to get civil service. I used liberalism to get physics, instead of radio, which was probably stupid. When you get the great scientist from physics, he'll help discover electricity every time, which is helpful. I traded and gifted techs and resources as much as possible, and everyone was friendly pretty quick. I founded 6 cities total, and cottage spammed them all.

As far as religions, I only founded Confucianism. At the time almost everyone was Buddhist, except one AI that had no religion. Everyone was "pleased" at the time, so my mistake was trying to make a bunch of missionaries, thinking I needed the relations boost from converting everyone. There's nothing more frustrating than sending a missionary across the map for 12 turns only to have him fail because you didn't feel like wasting a couple more turns to put him in a city with no religion. :mad: I wound up never adopting a state religion.

What I realized is, as you continue gifting techs, you'll eventually give the AI whatever it is that allows pacifism, and a few of them will switch to that anyway. My other mistake was not switching to pacifism until the last few turns, by accident, even though I had no state religion for the entire game.

I don't think going for early religions is the best idea on this one, especially if you only play against 5 opponents. They're so spread out it takes forever to get missionaries to them, and confucianism never spread outside of my city on its own, even after I built the shrine and had trade routes with everyone.

I am in the middle of a game as Quin. I tired Victoria but found I was having problems getting stone to build the Pyramids. The current game is going very well. I started by building 2 workers then a settler. Each subsequent city built a worker then a settler. I have 7 cities and will probably make a couple more. I have cottage spammed everything but will convert them to farms later. Not sure how fast I am going to get to mass media but we will see. I am spreading Conf like made to get extra gold for my shrine. But it does take forever to get missionaries some where.

My tech path was Bronze Working - Pottery - Masonry - Priesthood - Alphabet - Code of Laws - Philosphy (Oracle) - Currently I am heading towards liberalism but I may divert to electricity so I can get radio with liberalism.

I have traded heavilly with all AI and everyone is pleased with me. I also give away tech when they ask for it.

I did not find many huts with the lone warrior doing the exploration. I kind of forgot how big a Large map is and how long it takes to explore on Normal speed.

I plan on trying a couple of different scenarios in a few games to find the optimal growth rate for normal. I think in my next game I am going to make warriors until the city is level 2 then start making workers. I think I really need one extra warrior to help with the exploration phase of the game. Ideally I want to make contact with all AIs by the time I have developed writing.

I should finish this game Saturday so I will post back with my results.

I think I'll steal the idea someone had for gauntlet 3. Have only one spiritual civ that will take all the religions. That will make it easier to get the rest of the world all under 1 religion. Of course I'm still not decided if you should do any warmongering or not to increase your votes. On noble it would be very easy to take out a couple civs.

I think I'll actually have time to play a couple games of this this weekend. I haven't played a game of civ in weeks, I miss it.

I am going to go against the grain and predict:

Temporate Balanced Ancient Normal
Quin VS a bunch of peaceful/financial leaders
Diplomatic Victory, 400AD

I think the key to the best time will be Great People.

You obviously need 2 Engineers to rush the UN the turn you get it. Then you need a Prophet to build the shrine for the religion you focus on spreading. After you have Music and Monarchy, Artists will rush Radio and Mass Media. Scientists can also rush many of the techs along the research path.

See my GP tech reference at http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140952

Founding the religions has nothing to do with spreading them. You don't have time to spread them or need to. Getting all the other civs under 1 religion isn't important either. If you are trading away techs for cash and gifting a few of them, then you will receive enough votes to win. I have finished 3 games so far, 2 w/ marathon speed (stupid), and 1 with normal. I have only had 1 AI (other than the opponent) vote against me and that still made me have 80% of the vote.

The only thing you need to worry about is teching fast enough. DaveMcW brought up a really good point about the GP. That could help out. But I am finding in normal speed that GP are coming way too slow. Prophets are easy and if you convert to caste system then artists and scientists won't be that hard either. The problem is getting 1 engineer, much less 2. You have to get the pyramids built after stonehenge and before the oracle to get a GE at all. I don't know how to go about getting a second. Unless you can get the hanging gardens in your pyramid city.

And I stand corrected, 1400 may not be the goal :p

I think a goal of 1300 or sooner is pretty realistic. Looking back at my 1600 AD game I can see that I made alot of mistakes, and I think that I can knock off at least 100 years off of my time. Alot of you guys are alot faster than me, too!

Played my first attempt. 1420AD. Made quite a few mistakes including not switching to representation for like a ton of turns after getting the Pyramids, even though I was majorly happiness limited. :( I always forget to switch after building Pyramids, but I don't think it's ever taken me more than 10 turns to realize it. This was like 30+ turns. But anyway I generated 4 great engineers, 1 great scientist and 4 or 5 great artists. I used 1 engineer for notre dame (not too useful really but nothing else to use him for, 1 engineer on oxford university, 2 engineers on united nations. I used all 4-5 artists on radio, though they were only giving like 1200 beakers each which is way less than I thought they would. I used liberalism on electricity only because I didn't think I'd get through electricity through self-research before one of the AI's learned liberalism. Next time I'll probably try to generate some scientists to use on electricity and use liberalism to get radio, then any artists I have on mass media.

Big Ben was right in that religion had no impact at all. I was confucian most of the game and every other civ was some other religion. I did convert Cyrus through 1 missionary but that didn't help since Cyrus ended up being my opponent. Anyway I switched to free religion and still had over +10 relations with all the AI's so I won easily.

I founded 7 cities only, just enough for oxford university. I built the pyramids, parthenon, hanging gardens and notre dame. I somehow forgot all about the oracle until about 500AD when it was already built (even though I self-researched priesthood early just for that). Like I said I wasn't paying very good attention during much of the game. I'm not used to the speed of normal games. At the end of the game 50% of the map still hadn't been settled by anyone...

edit: Oh yeah, I played as Elizabeth against Cyrus, Washington, Mansa Musa, Victoria and Frederick. I'm dumping Washington and Frederick next game because they never want to trade techs. I don't see how anyone can play without Mansa in their game as he gives you monopoly techs at the drop of a hat. I used a tropical, low sea level, balanced map. I never had any stone or marble and still built the pyramids by 600BC or something like that. There was stone nearby but I would have had to settle a half-desert city and didn't feel it was worth it. I had a great production city with horses + copper + wheat + pigs + 3 food lake + several hills and many forests around it for chopping as well. It also ended up being my great person factory of course, although I didn't build any farms except to connect wheat/corn/rice.

Yeah, normal speed is going to throw everyone's game off. It's something to adjust to. :)

I really wish either Ghandi or Asoka had the financial trait, I could really use those fast workers. I am not sure if settling that many cities is necessary for such a short game. I have been settling 6-9 in my attempts but I may go with 3-4 and work on getting them fully developed since my last cities settled never get their cottages past villages and then only 4-5 make it that far.

I don't know. While my later cities only have a few villages, they're still generating 60+ beakers per turn, which isn't something to be sneezed at. I think the better solution is to try to get the settlers and workers built sooner. I plan to shoot for 8 cities in my next game.

Finished another game. These games are only like 2 hours each, although I probably should stop and think about my moves more than I do. Finished in 1340AD this time. I built 8 cities very quickly. I did get the oracle this time with civil service as my free tech but I missed the pyramids which hurt very badly. It took me until about 5 turns before mass media to get my second great engineer. So I didn't get any artists and only the one scientist at physics. I did get radio out of liberalism also. I was afraid that I wouldn't win the vote this time, though. For some reason no matter how many techs I gifted to Asoka he never gave me the + you shared your technological advancements with us. I had thought that you needed +10 and friendly for them to vote for you, but he voted for me even when he was only "pleased". Same thing with hatty. The problem with Hatty is I used Saladin in this game and him and Hatty had a bit of a tiff all game. I was very surprised to win the vote.

For next game:

1) Make sure to build the pyramids, even if I have to build it in a different city than the oracle.
2) Don't include Saladin.
3) Hopefully have stone nearby and claim it. There was no stone anywhere this game.

Back in first, and this time with the right settings :p

1260 finish

Yes, the pyramids are pretty essential in this game. I restart until my capital has stone or gold. This time it had stone. I popped mysticism from a hut, other than that I followed my tech path in previous posts. Getting a prophet for theo then using the Oracle to get paper is the only advantage I think I have on you. It shortens your tech path a lot. I received 6 GP total. prophet (theology), prophet (code of laws), prophet (civil service), scientist from physics (electricity), 2 engineers (UN). I received my first GE with 4 turns left on mass media. I had another GE working but was like 15 turns away. So I put enough artists specialists in to get a GP in 4 turns. I sent my first GE to that city. He arrived as mass media finished and I popped another GE that turn :) Worked out for me.

I think I played pretty well. The only thing that hurt me was that I originally had 7 cities but then found a river spot with 2 food resources, gold, and lots of flood plains. I founded my 8th city really late and was going to make it a GP farm. I didn't need it and I think it cost more than I made off of it. I popped a GP 2 turns after I built the UN.

The only thing that I think can shorten my game is if I make sure that I get pyramids, hanging gardens, and a forge in the same city ASAP and get my GE's working quicker. Once I pop one of them I can turn out some scientists and artists from other cities. Try and time my 2nd GE near the end of mass media.

I think 1100 is the absolute minimum for this gauntlet. You would have to get lucky on huts to get anything before that. I will probably take some time off of the gauntlet now though. May try again before the end. Would like to get sub 1200.

BTW, city placement isn't that important. Try for a river area so you can get the extra cash and food is nice for fast growth. Avoid jungle though, it takes too long to clear. The closer you pack your cities together the cheaper it will be. You can overlap some hill squares as well.

Finished my 2nd game. Lizzie against Asoka, Cyrus, Frederick, Hatty, and Mansa. Finished in 1460 AD. Only built 1 great engineer and it was at the end. Took 10 turns for GE and then two turns to rush by the UN. Mass Media was researched by 1260AD. With 2 GEs I could have won by 1329.

My Tech path was Bronze Working-Masonry-Mysticism-Pottery-Writing-Polytheism-Monotheism-Alphabet-Priesthood-Meditation-Theology(Prophet)-Paper(Oracle)-Electricity-Liberalism-Radio-Mass Media.

After Paper I picked up Music and Philosophy for Pacifism and the free GA, not sure if that wasted any time or not. I Waited on Code of laws untill I could trade for it but I think I should get it sooner.

After Theology I founded 3 more cities quikly and then built two more after Education so I could get Oxford built.

I have been building Stonehenge and the Oracle in 2nd city then Pyramids in the capital or the next city thst has trees for chopping. It went in my forth one, 3rd city was settled for stone but not enough trees to chop Pyramids.

I had 5 Great Scientists, 3 Great Prophets, 1 Great Artist, 1 Great Engineer. Used a GA and a GS for a Golden age towards the end. 1 Prophet for religion. All others were used for tech research except for the Engineer.

For the next game.

1. Figure out how to make 2 Great Engineers
2. Research Code of Laws sooner.
3. Then more Great Artists and Great Scientists
4. and 2 or 3 more cities

I think it is possible to get a finish time around 1250AD.

I took my first shot at this Gauntlet.

1260AD.

Yes, I checked all my settings. Normal speed, large map.
I had no stone or marble. Just 1 corn, 1 gold, and some spices to start with.
I got like 7 great scientists, 2 engineers, no prophets.

I just took the first starting location I got. Next time I'll hold out for something more promising. It's late...more details tomorrow.

Shaved my time down to 1300, looks like that's been bested already. Played as Qin again, all the same settings (vs. Mansa, Cyrus, Liz, Asoka and Fredrick). Yep, gotta get the pyramids, and scoring the hanging gardens seems to help a lot too. In all 4 games I've played, the population of my own civ didn't matter, because all 4 ai's (obviously besides the one who votes himself) voted me in. Something earlier than 1200 is definitely doable, I never got an engineer in this one, which woulda helped. I also was thinking that holding off on liberalism, and using it on radio, might not be the best idea, unless you use a religion. Since I never adopt a religion, getting liberalism earlier and switching to free religion would probably work better in the long run.

Getting a prophet for theo then using the Oracle to get paper is the only advantage I think I have on you.

Paper is a cheaper tech than civil service. :confused: Unless you mean that you skip civil service until an AI researches it, but I think bureaucracy is way too valuable to do that. edit: Nevermind, I see you used a prophet for civil service.

Getting a prophet for theo then using the Oracle to get paper is the only advantage I think I have on you.

Ouch that can be a lot of restarting. I was trying to restart until I got gold and I think I restarted about 30 times and never got gold. I never got stone on any of those either. I ended up settling for a bunch of silks.

It isn't as bad as the last gauntlet for restarting. If I get a really good spot I will settle but I like either gold for the research or stone for the pyramid build. If there are a lot of trees to chop I won't worry about stone.

Normally I will just let an AI research civil service or use a prophet if I get one. Last game I got paper from the Oracle then while teching alphabet I made another prophet so I used him for code of laws and teched philosophy, education, then I think I hit the other prophet for civil.

Awww, Cathy, don't look at me like that. You know you're the only one for me. Yeah, I know I've been bad. I know I've strayed. But that Lizzie tramp never meant nothin' to me. I'm tellin' you Cathy, those English floozies are no good for anyone. I was using her for all those art school boys, always hangin' around her. Yeah, you know that's the truth.

What? Victoria? You've got to be kidding me. Have you seen her teeth? Well, yeah.. yeah.. I did take her out once or twice, but I swear it didn't come to nothin'! Aw, come back, baby! I just felt sorry for the old girl. You know how they say, its true, she has seriouly expanded lately, if you know what I mean. I know it looks bad, but you're the only one for me!

Don't even try that. That thing with me an Monte? Strictly business. That's not something you should even start, and you know it.

Now look baby, there's a new test up, you know? How about it? You and me, just like old times? Yeah, I see that look in your eye. C'mon babe, lets take on the world.

(on an unrelated note, I can't break 1000 with this gauntlet. I've come close, but never gotten through)

- Bill

I edited my post to 1260 (not 1250...That's the year of the vote, not the win).
I think votes can only occur on 1100, 1150, 1200, 1250, etc. The win is 10 years after that. Anyone disagree with that?

So, I expect the final date to be 1060 or 1010. And there will probably be a tie.

Eh... I didn't knock down my 1600 AD score by 100 as I would have liked, only managed 1540 AD the second time. Probably didn't help that I didn't win the first diplo victory election :mad: . Should have given away a city to Vicky to stop her from being so slightly pissed off about borders. I might have gotten a better time if I'd managed to find ANY hut techs, but all they ever seemed to give me was warriors, maps, and promotions :cry: . Exploring the whole map with early warriors didn't help as much as I'd planned.

My last game vote was 1290. Followed same path as before except researched Code of Laws-Philosophy-Civil Service. At this point Music was 3 turns.

This time I had 6 cities, not sure vote wise what the right number is but I dont think I would go less than 5.

I found out that artists and scientists research Mass Media I only had one of each and I needed 4 or 5. I generated 4 Prophets, 1 Engineer, 2 Artists(1 free) and 4 Scientists(1 Free).

Optimal GP's for me would be 2 Prophets(theology and shrine), 2 Engineers for UN, 1-3 Artists(for Mass Media) and 4+ Scientists(Techs from Education to Mass Media. Any extra profits could be used for Civil Service or Code of Laws. Each GP saves 3 to 4 turns of research.

I will try the GP method next and will post the results.

I was thinking elections may only be on selected years as well however I just finished another game in 1180AD.

The only thing that held me back was not having enough trees at my capital so I had to keep moving to the new cities to chop more workers and settlers. Also had to spread my first cities out to get to the stone I wanted. I managed to get stone and marble :)

I am still thinking 1100 may be the base line for this. 1000 AD may be achievable but it would be extremely difficult and I think a lot would be luck with the map and huts.

First try: 1220 AD.

I could've saved a few more turns by using my one extra Prophet for Philosophy or Civil Service, but was not given either tech as a research option. >.< No clue why they offered Divine Right as the research tech, since Divine Right is the MOST expensive religious tech. Perhaps you get offered a choice of the cheapest tech in the present age...? That doesn't make much sense, considering how I had to take a detour to Drama so my Artists would research Mass Media... >.< The Great Person tech choices confuse me. I was happy to get 2 engineers though, but only 3 scientists, 2 prophets and an artist (plus the 2 free GP), if I remember correctly. I need to set up my GP farms faster.

Come to think of it, the 4-5 turns it took to research Civil Service without the Great Prophet proved the difference between an AD 1180 win and a AD 1220 win, since I completed the UN in 1160 and had to waste two turns on the UN Secretary General vote and results. I ended up using the Prophet as a super specialist in London, since I was inland and not connected to any AIs early, so the 5 gold and 3 beakers was worth more than a shrine. It definitely seems votes are only held on specific years.

Gifting liberalism around and bribing AIs to swap to free religion is effective, pretty much guarantees that there will be no religious voting blocs.

What are the thought regarding the number of cities settled? I only settled 6 cities, 4 early cottage spam sites plus 2 GP farms founded much later. I know I need to set up the GP farms sooner, but am wondering if mor cities are worth it.

EDIT: Son of a #^%$*, it seems I poped Monarchy from a goody hut, enabling Devine Right and disabling Civil Service research for my Prophet. *Lucky* goody hut indeed. >.< The GP research techs are completely nonintuitive. Thanks for that chart though Dave.

Me 'n Catherine managed a 960AD win.

Large Temperate Balanced Normal
Catherine VS Asoka, Cyrus, Hatshepsut, Frederick, Elizibeth, Roosevelt, Mansa Musa
Diplomatic Victory, 960AD

I'm also thinking that there is very likely to be a tie in this Gauntlet. So remember, build fast, but also build big. Ties go to the highest score.

- Bill

I was just wondering... wouldn't it be better to use a few great scientists on building academies in your top 2 research cities? Instead of using them on researching only one tech?

I can't imagine why you would need 2 GEs for the UN.... Using just 1 takes it to 4- turns to complete, and if you switch to universal suffrage and free religion you can rush-buy it. I didn't even need to pay much at all to do this in my game, since after chopping 2 forests it cost me only 150 gold to rush the rest of it. Plus, free religion made it easier to please some of the AIs who still had religions that were different from mine. If you are using liberalism to research Radio (as I was), there seems to be little point in NOT doing it this way, since right after liberalism you are going for Mass Media, and the extra 10% research from liberalism/free religion probably isn't going to save you any time.

Also, keep in mind that the UN doesn't need to be in your capitol... so you could easily build it somewhere that has alot of forest, prechop them, and use your 1 GE there. Unless you plan to use your 2nd GE for another wonder, I think its probably a waste.

BAH I didn't think there would be anyone under 1000 AD. Guess I was completely wrong. I played with 6 opponents and shaved a couple years off, will try 7-8 next time. I really want to put Ghandi in there since he techs faster and techs some of the stuff I need faster but I am wondering if he will beat me to the wonders. We will see.

How many workers are you building? I think I may be under doing it.

Very good question, actually.. I've switched up my worker production regimen this gauntlet, to good results, I think.

Previously, I used the fairly standard

Worker -> Worker -> Settler -> Settler

Tactic, but in the 960 game, I changed it slightly

Worker -> Worker -> Worker -> Settler -> Settler

Where the 3rd worker doesn't chop, but goes straight to cottaging. The first worker departs with the first settler, and the cycle repeats there. However, each 2nd generation city only builds two workers, as the first one is gifted to it from the 1st generation city.

- Bill

1140, Mansa, 5 AIs. Wonder if the Paper slingshot works with non Phi leaders, anyone want to try? I played it safe with Philosophy. AI still won't trade as much as they should, anyone got the AI leader flavors in a nice table? I need more AIs and a better variety of AI leader flavors.

Interesting Bill, I had the same worker generation scheme as you, except I start the settler in the second city after one worker. I ended with 8 workers, prolly 1-2 less than optimal. If you don't mind me asking, how many cities are you founding and when do you found them?

Yes, it will work with non-philo leaders. I was doing it with Victoria in the beginning. I haven't been beaten to any wonders playing on normal speed. The AIs are really iffy about trading techs in this guantlet. I get all the improvement techs as soon as I get alphabet and then I research mathematics (going to change metallurgy next time). I usually hold out for iron working for a trade and usually trade for calendar and currency. The only other techs I get from them are not necessary ones. I mostly trade for cash.

I play as lizzie with asoka, cyrus, frederick, hatty, and mansa all the time. I have added catherine, victoria, washington, and peter in various combinations. Once you get to have more than 7 opponents some borders will get crowded and they won't like each other. 7 or less and they are pretty peace loving.

I want to add Ghandi to see if he will trade more but he is the only person that stands a chance of beating me to the wonders. I hate wasting a game to get 1-2 turns away and lose a couple of them. We will see though.

I think 9-10 opponents will be the limit. I just tried a game with 15 opponents, which was pretty nice, I got a fair amount of tech I don't normally get and a TON of cash from trading. But it was extremely cramped. You start to notice border tensions causing problems with 8 opponents and at 15 it is crazy. Only one war the entire time but there were a lot of tensions. I went through 8 UN votes for victory and couldn't win so I gave up. It wasn't that they were voting against me, it was just everyone was abstaining.

My first attempt using Quin was at 1560. My biggest problem was it took like 4 or 5 votes to get elected. I forgot to spread free religion and that killed me. Once everyone adopted free religion I was in good shape.

I also made some mistakes in my tech path and I did not farm enough GPs. I only got like 3 GPs the whole game. My other mistake was putting Stonehenge and the Oracle in the same city as the Pyramids. A good learning experience though.

I am going to try Quin again so I do not have to worry about having the right resource. I know I can shave alot of time by getting a better starting position as well as remembering to start a GP farm early.

You shouldn't have to spread free religion, I don't even convert to it. That is 1 extra turn that you don't need at all. Are you giving away your techs? If you are giving away all of your techs (or trading them for cash) the opponents should be +8 or more in your favor. I myself never adopt a state religion so I don't have any religious problems at all but it shouldn't matter if you are a diff religion at all. Once I hit physics I start gifting every tech I have to the AI. By the time the votes roll around they are in love with you.

I don't make great people farms either. You need cash, not lots of great people. I only make cottage cities. For an entire game I try and generate GP in this order:

great prophet (theology)
2 x great engineer (save for UN)
great artist (mass media)
great scientist (electricity)
great scientist from phsyics (electricity)
great artist (mass media) if I have time

From the time I hit scientific method until mass media I can turn out 4-5 great people. There isn't a need for great people farms. All cities are cottages only (plus resources). Here is the way I build wonders and what I do with them:

Stonehenge: if I have extra trees around the capital after settler rushing i build it in the capital, if not I build it in city 2. This should generate 1 great prophet to use for theology.

Pyramids: If there is stone I build it in the stone city. If not, in a tree heavy area. In the same city I will build a forge and the Hanging Gardens. Once you build the forge, make sure you have an engineer specialist forced. This will let you generate 2 GE before you get to scientific method.

Parthenon: In the capital if it has decent production and stonehenge is not there, if not I chop it in city 4 or 5. Don't build any temples in this city (don't want accidental priests) and try and build this in the city with the most cottage areas so the computer doesn't make scientists because of lack of spots to put workers. Once I get my second GE I force as many artists as this city will handle (I don't mean when food is stagnant, I mean as many as you can and make sure you change to stagnant before you run out) This will generate 1 artist for sure, two if you are lucky.

Oracle: build in a seperate city. try not to build a temple here. You don't want this city generating any great people.

After I generate my artist I will go to the city with the most food resources and no wonders. I then force as many scientist as possible. This should be good for 1-2 scientists.

I get the free scientist from physics always. If I can get the comp to trade either literature or drama before they get to music, I will try and grab the free artist as well. I don't research drama or literature myself though unless I need ot for mass media with artist.

AI still won't trade as much as they should, anyone got the AI leader flavors in a nice table? I need more AIs and a better variety of AI leader flavors.

I dont know how to include the table in my post but I will upload the file LeaderHeadInfo and I will also upload TechInfo.

Hope this information helps.

PS. If I do this wrong I can also E-mail them.

I build on average about 12 cities, and as soon as humanly possible.

I think the majority of the posters on the board are looking at the "number of cities" problem in a fundimentally incorrect manner. You should not be looking at this in terms of a hard city-target. Cities, by and large, pay for themselves with ease. The really important factor here is how long it takes a city to become productive, versus how much time is left in the game.

In my games I spew out settlers as fast as possible with no regard for my science slider, until about 500BC, which is the point I've determined to be the cutoff for usefulness. I build like mad until that date, then I stop.

Yes, I'm still playing Catherine. You should too.

On a totally unrelated note, I'm liking how Ben is picking up on the subtle messages in my last few posts. You, sir, are a winner.

- Bill

1180 AD

Still no stone, but I did have gems. I like gems better than gold.
My start was strange, but very good, I think, for my starting location.
WorkBoat -> Worker -> WorkBoat -> Worker -> Worker

I'm using some pretty crazy strategy and I don't think I can take it much lower without dropping the craziness. Is anyone else getting sub-1100 besides BlueRenner? Maybe I should just be happy with 2nd place, but 1180 probably won't hold 2nd. I'd hate to give away my secrets only to find out Blue's been blowing smoke (I'm sure you're not, of course, since I see you won Gauntlet 3) But maybe he's on Epic speed or something accidently.

I'll have to try a more conventional approach and see how that goes.

good luck all

How are you guys teching up so fast? First, I forgot how easy the game was without barbarians, so once I remembered to take those out that kind of helped ;), and I'm trying to follow the suggested tech trees to get to Liberalism first. But still . . . you guys ARE playing on "normal," right?

I only bothered with free religion because the whole rest of the world tends to align in a single religious bloc and vote for co-religionists over me. Besides, I'm Spi, so who cares? Hmm, looks like the leader choice is down to Spi for a few turns of anarchy, Cre for a scout and free border pops, or Phi for 1-2 more GP.

In the capital if it has decent production
What is this production you speak of? :lol: My cities have pretty much 0 production and depend entirely on worker chops! :D

Hmm, looks like I've been taking a minimalistic approach, only founding 4 cities in the inital phase and 2 more around 1000 AD or so. Perhaps I should try more. Looking back, NOW I understand your inital post, Bill. Clever.

Thanks for the file, solid!

Something very strange happened in my last game. I finished in 960AD. Yes, again.

Now, here's the reason why this is strange. I played almost identical settings to my first 960AD win, only this time I wasn't nearly so lucky in the early game. In the first win, I managed to grab four free techs from goody huts, which were:

Bronze Working
Agriculture
Pottery
Mathematics

For those of you who are unsure, this is eye-popping pants-wetting good. In the second game, I only found Animal Husbandry.. a tech that I usually trade for, and as such can be considered a non-effect on the game.

But the trouble is both games finished on the same date. This is evidence of something I have long suspected, but could never prove: that goody huts are largely irrelevant past the Classical Age. Once you hit the Industrial Age, you're producing enough beakers every turn to buy the entire Ancient Age tech set, so any initial advantage you get by popping a hut with a fortunate tech is negated by the end of the game.

Of course, this isn't proof, either. I don't believe I played significantly better in this 2nd game than in the 1st, but it is always a possibility.

However, we have a bigger problem now. As Fluffy pointed out in the previous post, the main strength of Catherine is not in the Creative trait, but in the fact she starts with a Scout, giving you many, many more huts. In a game where initial huts don't matter so much, the appeal of Catherine is largely gone.

To elaborate a little further, there appear to be four main choices for this Gauntlet:

Elizibeth: +GP scientists
Catherine: +Scout
Mansa Musa: -Anarchy
Victoria: +Population

Victoria I've already dismissed, and I now believe that Catherine isn't all she's cracked up to be (by.. ahh.. me). I'm very much not sold on the virtues of Spiritual, so I think in the next few games I'll join the pack and see what Elizibeth can do.

- Bill

Let's see. The combined tech value of the goody huts you poped that first time is around the 1000-1500 beakers of a single extra great person. The 1000-1500 beakers would take 1-3 extra turns to generate normally. Spi shaves off maybe 3 turns of anarchy. I think I'd rather not be forced to gamble with luck from huts.

WTH do you mean "cities pay for themselves easily"?? Are we even playing the same GAME? If I want to found cities like mad like you guys seem to, my tech rate is going waaay down or I start hemorrhaging gold like crazy. And now we are skipping GL too?? I definately go for that pretty quickly, otherwise I can't imagine how you are teching so fast. Also, you guys obviously aren't doing much in the way of religion, so unless you are relying on the christianity shrine (it's possible I guess, but it would require getting 2 GPs, one to research the other to build) to generate money. Is there some sort of great gold exploit that I am missing? I build cottages everywhere, so its not like that's my problem. I operate at about 90-100% most of the time, except when I need more money (and can't trade for more), but I still don't get pre-1500 scores.

If, as you say, I need alot more cities, how do I pay for them????

If, as you say, I need alot more cities, how do I pay for them????

They are building 2 workers for every settler - one to chop a courthouse and one to build cottages.

Actually I don't build courthouses at all in this guantlet.

Imperator: You are looking at cash generation on a turn by turn basis. You have to look at the end result. I only go down to 40% when I am in the growing phase in order to keep my tech pace up but I am going to try Bill's approach and let it go lower if necessary. You have to understand that it isn't about how MANY cottages you make. It is about how many cottages are WORKED and WHEN.

Let's look at some math. I know it isn't accurate in the game, but they are round numbers and easier to work with. Lets assume that it takes 53,000 tech points to finish teching. Lets say that for the first 50 turns of a cottage it makes 2 gold. After that it is at town status and generating 8-10 gold. Lets say that each city cost 5 gold in upkeep.

If you build 5 cities by turn 40 then the upkeep is 25 gold/turn and the population will be about 3.5 of each city, meaning the income is 35 gold/turn. This allows you to keep research at 30-40%. That means you are getting 10-15 beakers/turn in research. So for turn 40-90 you will make 750 beakers in research. At that time you will be about 10 population and making 500 gold/turn for turn 90-200. That means you will make 52,250 + 750 beakers in research. So you finish around turn 200.

Now lets say you build 10 cities by turn 50. The upkeep would be 50 gold/turn and the population would be lower (spent more turns building settlers instead of growing) around 2.5 of each city giving an income of 50 gold pieces. That means for the first 50 turns you are at 0% research. So at turn 110 you have 0 research. By that time you will be around 10 pop per city making 1000 gold/turn for turn 110 onward. It will take you 53 turns to get 53,000 beakers. So by turn 163 you are finished teching.

That scenario you are running at 0% research for over half the game, but once the cities mature they "pay for themselves" in the fact that they are making a lot more than you lost by not having the money to tech in the beginning. In that case you finish 37 turns earlier.

What world setting is most people using for this gauntlet? Balanced?

Yeah, balanced, tropical, low sea level.

I played a Catherine game and I thought the expanding borders were a better feature than the scout. It brings more choppable forest and resources in range faster.

Unrelated question: Are you guys chopping out/building 7 Universities and the Oxford Uni? I find that the game is almost over by the time you finish all that.

I build universities but not Oxford. I usually get the last of my Unis built right before the end of my tech phase so they are pointless. I may just not worry about it and make cash or beakers.


I finished a game with Bill's strat of city spamming as fast as possible. I do like it, I got 15 by 250 BC. I think next time I will probably stop at 500 or before like he said. I had a few under developed cities in the end. I finished 1140 but should have finished before 1100. I had a couple of mistakes that cost me a couple turns. I also lost the parthenon so I didn't get enough GP like I wanted.

As for leaders, I have been playing with Lizzie and have been doing pretty well. However I am usually getting 2-3 great people between 900-1100 AD which is the advantage of Lizzie. However to break 1000 AD in finish time I don't know if philosophical helps all that much. Mansa may be ok but he would only save me 2 turns at most. I am thinking Catherine may be a decent option. I don't really care about getting techs from huts, I prefer gold. That gold will help you keep your research up for a few more turns.

I really wish either Ghandi or Asoka had a financial trait, those fast workers would be perfect for this gauntlet.

I simply do not understand this play style ... I've managed to get the Oracle to rush Civil Service twice now, and I'm using my Prophet from Stonehenge to rush Theology. But all of that is for naught when one of these so-called "friendly" civs declares war on my undefended or almost undefended cities.

I am cry :cry:

Who is declaring war on you? I have never had any opponent declare war on me out of the 7-8 games I have played. I have only had 1 war between opponents the entire time as well.

I am still working with Quin as a leader. I think Industrious is a big help to get the early wonders necessary as I am not patient enough to wait until I get a start with stone and/or marble.

The key to not having war is to make sure all civs are friendly with you. Do this by signing open borders with every civ as soon as you can. Also trade techs early and often. If a civ asks for a tech, give it to them. If they demand you switch to a religion or a civic, you can make a decision base on the situation. Generally I find you can turn them down and the -1 will not hurt you.

Also make sure you do not select any agressive civs for your opponents. You need to select people like Asoka, Ghandi, Mansa Musa, Cyrus and others that tend to be more friendly.

1060 AD.

Still with Liz, still using a completely different strategy from you all (I think).
Tried a Plains map. Lots of forest, river, grassland, but resources were sparse. I was right up against the edge of the map too, so I couldn't chop forest in one direction.

I went for a Stone start this time, but wasn't patient enough to get one with gems or gold too. Maybe with that perfect start I could get sub 1000.

Bah, another 960AD game.

I had such high hopes too. I completed the UN in 780AD, several turns before I had done so in previous games. But then those turns were wasted as I sat and waited.. and waited.. and waited for elections to be called. And then waited.. and waited.. and waited for the Diplomatic Victory to be declared. I wasted a full 10 turns, 6% of the game, just sitting there. Highly annoying.

I've tried and discarded Elizibeth. Philosophical just isn't powerful enough for this gauntlet. I'm back to Catherine.

- Bill

I did a search but came up with too many answers that don't apply. What triggers the secretary general vote and what triggers the diplo vote? I first thought it was only on certain years, the *50's, but I have won on other years as well. And it doesn't seem to be consistent how long you wait between the secretary general vote and the winning vote.

Hmm, someone should test in world builder or look in the xml and find out when exactly UN votes are held. I'd guess 780 was a voting year, or very close to one. Tough luck Bill. Still, UN in 780 looks to be miles ahead of everyone else, nice work.

Who is declaring war on you? I have never had any opponent declare war on me out of the 7-8 games I have played. I have only had 1 war between opponents the entire time as well.

Persia and Egypt ...

I am always signing open borders, but then the other civs get mad at each other and want me to cancel my open borders with their hated enemies. If I don't, I'm not their special friend anymore.

On the plus side, what I've learned from this will really help my huge warmonger games. I've been trying Frederick for this one, seems very good for a regular game with the combo of culture and GP production.:)

I did some testing with the world builder. It seems that 780AD, 860AD, and 940AD are all election years. I have previously gotten a 1020AD win (election in 1010AD). Above is a 1060AD win (election in 1050AD).

Pretty conclusive evidence for an election every four turns.

This means I missed getting a 880AD win by a single turn. A bit galling.

- Bill

These gauntlets are a lot of fun. I've only played the last 2. It's a shame that they both are just a mad dash up the tech tree. Especially this one. It should be about learning diplomacy. This gauntlet would be a lot more fun/educational if it were against random opponents. In fact, I think all the gauntlets should have random opponents. I'm tired of the same boring bunch. Maybe they can't tell if you hand picked them or if they were random so they just let you pick them. If so, Firaxis should indicate on the settings screen whether opponents were random.

...and I'd like to see barbarians required.

game on

Maybe they can't tell if you hand picked them or if they were random so they just let you pick them. If so, Firaxis should indicate on the settings screen whether opponents were random.

Regardless of the technicalities of us being able to check this, all that would happen is some players would keep creating new games until they got the opponents they wanted anyway!



...and I'd like to see barbarians required.

That's a possibility :mischief:.

Regardless of the technicalities of us being able to check this, all that would happen is some players would keep creating new games until they got the opponents they wanted anyway!


I disagree. Especially on this large map, you'd be half way through the game before you even knew who your opponents were. And it would be extremely rare to get exactly the 5 opponents you want. About 1 in 500,000 chance I think.

I disagree. Especially on this large map, you'd be half way through the game before you even knew who your opponents were. And it would be extremely rare to get exactly the 5 opponents you want. About 1 in 500,000 chance I think.
Good point, I keep forgetting this is Civ4, not Civ3 :blush:.

I did some testing with the world builder. It seems that 780AD, 860AD, and 940AD are all election years. I have previously gotten a 1020AD win (election in 1010AD). Above is a 1060AD win (election in 1050AD).

Pretty conclusive evidence for an election every four turns.

This means I missed getting a 880AD win by a single turn. A bit galling.

- Bill

Sounds like the Oerdin years from civ 2 are back...
(Every 4 turn all revolutions would end, regardless of when they were started, meaning if you know how to count, you could get 1-turn revolutions..)

I think we have to be very careful about the random factors we introduce into the gauntlet. I agree with Dianthus in principle, though I also agree with WastinTime's rebuttal. Players would not be able to restart over and over and over effectively to essencially choose their opponents, but the best games will still be those in which the AIs line up perfectly. Basically, its not a strategic element anymore, its like another goody hut. And it matters... a lot.

Barbarians, on the other hand, I think should be on. They are random in a micro sense, in that they don't appear in the same places at the same time, but they are very consistant when viewed over time. Consider also that the AI always plays as if barbarians are on, so turning barbarians off gives the player a huge advantage over the computer.

How does a Large Continents Domination with Barbarians on Monarch sound for the next game? I likes it.

- Bill

How does a Large Continents Domination with Barbarians on Monarch sound for the next game? I likes it.

- Bill

Make it emperor with default number of civs and it might even be enjoyable to play instead of a cheap rush tactic.

...the best games will still be those in which the AIs line up perfectly. Basically, its not a strategic element anymore, its like another goody hut. And it matters... a lot.

- Bill

I see your concern here. Let's assume we go with random opponents on all gauntlets. I believe that getting a lucky set of opponents has a minimal effect on any win condition other than Diplomatic. Even on Diplomatic its arguable. You can get agressive civs to vote for you too, you just need more planning. Something more than just giving away tech. In order to have Diplomatic Gauntlets require some diplomacy, and eliminate the luck factor, we could require a few specific opponents, or maybe require two aggressive civs of your choice, or maybe just having each leader trait represented, e tc...you get the idea. Too complicated?

In fact, I think all the gauntlets should have random opponents. I'm tired of the same boring bunch

There is a checkbox option for this. ;)

Well, look at it this way. If we were doing a peaceful builder gauntlet (Space Race, Cultural, Diplomatic) and I saw Alexander was in the game, I would immediately restart.

Alexander attacks based on weakness, nothing else. In a builder game, to maximize your time you build a minimum of troops. This means that you will get invaded unless you build a military.. and if you spend time building a military, you're going to be behind the guy who isn't.

Besides, there are ripple effects. Once aggressive civs enter a game that is ideally peaceful, the AI starts taking sides and you start accruing negative modifiers for having agreements with [somebody's] worst enemy. It quickly spirals out of control and you find yourself in war.. and behind. It just doesn't work.

In violent games (Domination, Conquest), I'm all for Random civs... but then, it doesn't matter. All civs are more or less equally bad at fighting. A human player rolls over them with ease.

I'd be fine with the gauntlet rules dictating your opponants, which is something I think will become very important once we have to start cycling back through the victory conditions, but I think requiring Random opponents is just adding another factor into the Regenerate/Restart grind, making the perfect, lucky start all the more valuable.

Heh. How about an "Always War" space race victory? That'd be fun.

- Bill

Meh, the game is random enough as it is, why make it more random? The more random the game, the more it favors those with the most time to restart. If people are going to restart anyway to try and get the best possible games, why fight it?

Hmm, UN votes every four turns. That's what I had suspected, but nice to confirm. Looks like the earliest time will be below anyones predictions, 880 looks possible, to miss that by 1 turn--ouch. Guess I'll try another game now that I have some time.

Enough said. I'm sure a true diplomatic gauntlet will come around some day. Back to business...

1020 AD win.

I think Liz is required for my strategy, so I played her again.
It's not about getting a lot of Great People, it's about getting an EARLY GP.

I had stone, corn, fur for a start. Not spectacular.
I did not even have gems/gold, but made good use of the one Fur. Can you believe I researched Hunting first? I'm all about a quick start. I disagree with the comment that free techs from huts are meaningless. I only got 1 free, BTW.

I'm certain I can get a 960 soon...although I expect someone to have 880 by then.

There it is. 960 AD.

I only had 1 cow and some flood plains. Stone was 1 tile out of my fat cross.
Again, not a spectacular start, but it had a nice river running through it and I put my city on a hills/plains for the extra hammer.

I was Liz, but it played like Catherine. I got around 20 huts. (I usually get 2 or 3.) I had 3 warriors and 3 scouts combing the land. I think this had little impact on the game though. I popped 4 techs, but really only 1 mattered (bronze).

Welcome to the club. I think I'll put in another game tomorrow (maybe two), but I really don't anticipate getting the fabled 880AD win.

This is going to go to score then.. most unsatisfying. Lets not do Normal speed games again, eh?

- Bill

I think with a Stone + Gems start, I can get 880. I'm really gonna hold out for a good start this time. I just generated one with 16 flood plains. Even on Noble you start with -8 unhealthy to your +6 healthy. I think I'll regen.

Mm. I still haven't figured out what you're doing. I can't see the early research boost from Gems being all that important..

Unless you're gunning for Oracle -> Education. Should be possible, but I'm not sure the sacrifice to get there is worth it...

- Bill

Heh. Now, see what happens when you start thinking aloud? I pulled an 880AD win with Elizibeth, with a full turn to spare (UN in 720AD). Examining the game against my 960AD wins, I believe that this time can be beat. I had a very awkward start.

As I mentioned above, the key here is using the Oracle to get you Education. It can be done... you sacrifice quite a bit to get there, both in terms of growth and unnecessary teching, but in the end the beaker gain is worth it.

My start was nothing special. Just some flood plains, and a wine+hills tile that I moved my first settler onto. I found four technologies from huts, only one which was significant (Masonry). The others were AI trade-techs.

- Bill

Congrats Bill.

I haven't tried going for education w/ Oracle yet. I may try that this game. Did you tech theology or use a prophet? I think going to Education will be hard, I am sometimes beaten to the Oracle if I go for paper. I don't think waiting for a prophet will work since you would have to chop Stonehenge when you could be pumping out another settler. But you did say you have to make sacrifices.

Not sure on the AI selection either. I would imagine if you stayed away from spiritual civs you would almost be gauranteed the Oracle-Education but not sure on how that will play out relations wise. Getting ready to give it a quick try.

It is actually easier than I thought to get education. I missed the Oracle by about 2 turns. Was 1 turn from getting paper so I could make the jump. I founded 12 cities, #11 at 700 BC and #12 at 575 BC. Lost the Oracle in 500 BC. I think if I would have only founded 10 cities I would have made it for sure, 11 would have still been iffy. I lost it to Victoria so I am going to leave her out next game and see if that helps.

I went with all non-spiritual civs. Tech path went Bronze-Poly-priesthood-pottery-mono-theology(prophet)-paper. Once I had the first settler from my capital I chopped Stonehenge and a hindu temple for the priest. Not a bad strat at all. It's just like what I was going for Oracle-Paper in the beginning of the thread, just going 1 step further. Education is a big beaker saver though, not to mention the early Universities.

I was wondering what all the talk about Paper was about. I was always going for education with the oracle and getting it in my first few games. Then I realized that it's safer and maybe a bit faster for me to go for Civil Service instead. Bureaucracy can accelerate you to education. That's how I got down from 1100's to 960.

But here's how I recall my tech path. Bronze -> Pottery -> alphabet -> (trade for Myst and sometimes Poly) -> Priest -> then I tried both mono - theo and the Code of Laws/Civil Serv path to Paper. I've never used a great prophet to speed this up. I avoid them. I don't build Stonehenge because of them.
You don't need priesthood early because you're not building the oracle until after Paper.

You're always one step ahead of me BlueRenner, congrats.

I didn't really expect to break 1000 with my attack plan. I doubt I'll be able to get the new target year of 800 AD. (that's next after 880 right?). Well, if I can't win this, I'd like some of my strategy to be used, so I'll put it all on the table. I think many of you will find this a whole new challenge--kinda like Gauntlet 4b. So if you're bored of the same old Gauntlet 4 games, read on.

I've been winning the Diplomatic Victory with just 13-14 votes of my own. I don't build 12 cities, nor 7 cities. I don't build any. Just the one massive science center. I'd be glad to share some of my tricks, but I wanna let you have some of the fun of discovering them yourselves first. I think you'll really enjoy this approach.

Now it's probably clearer why a strong start helps me so much.
Food resources are not that important. Once I had a rice tile I never used except for the health bonus.

Have fun!

Wow.. you've completely lost me, WastinTime. Are you doing a One-City Challenge? You must, to keep the population so low... but how? No settlers means lots of hammers, but then you need those for the wonders you have to build. I really can't wrap my head around this one.

My path to Education involves buiding Stonehenge in my capital instead of a 4th settler, and then using the prophet to discover Theology. No priests involved (with Elizibeth) -- build Stonehenge by 2400BC or so and the prophet generates naturally.

This tactic reduces the expected number of cities from 13 to 10, but I think I can boost that back to 12. I'm still convinced this is the optimum number.

If you look through Noble games on the Hall of Fame, you'll see that the AI typicaly completes the Oracle between 875BC and 300BC. In my game, I built it in 850BC, meaning there was a slight chance of missing it. I believe that to get a top score, this is a chance that must be taken, and it appears that Elizibeth is the only one in any position to really benefit from it.

- Bill

OCC? That is craziness. I thought about trying it a couple days ago but I didn't think there would be anyway you could keep up the tech pace with only one city. It would definitely be a faster start if you didn't have to build all the settlers and you could keep 100% tech rate the entire game. You could probably collect enough gold from trading to buy the UN but then you have to have the pyramids for universal suffrage.

Thats an interesting take on how to pull off this challenge, crazy though. I will give it a shot next time I play to see if I can get anywhere near 1000 AD with it. Right now my record is just 1100. Looks like I am only going to get top 10 again :( We'll see what I can do with your idea.

I told you it was crazy. Who knows, maybe I'm a terrible civ player and someone will get 600AD with OCC. I got my experience playing a lot of OCC on the Diety level. I've even won a Diplo victory on Diety, standard size and speed with RANDOM opponents. The secret to those games is fast tech, so I immediately knew I could tech quickly on this Gauntlet using OCC.

Don't be discouraged with a 1400 finish for your first OCC. There are dozens of new strategic choices to work out. You can get that down to sub 1100 after a few tries. I look forward to your reports, and I'm happy to answer questions.

Are you checking the OCC option when you start the game so you can build national wonders or is this like ghetto OCC?

Add a One City Challenge Space Race to my Gauntlet wish-list. This definately bears greater investigation.

- Bill

Just played another OCC but didn't finish. I hit the Oracle-Education just fine and was just about even with my normal times through Astronomy or so. After that it is purely downhill. I was at 900 AD teching Physics with 20 turns left.

My problem was that my happiness capped me at 11 pop until the end. I just traded for construction and could have chopped a coliseum but that doesn't help that much. I got a great prophet that I should have used to found Christianity for the +1 happiness from the temple and the extra tech bonus from the monastery.

A good start is very key. I started on a plains hill with stone and 4-5 flood plains in my city. Had a couple food resources just outside. Happiness resources are the key though. Or an abundance or something you can trade with.

This is a pretty fast game and lets me micromanage a lot more since I don't have 10 cities to watch. I may play this a couple more times and see what kind of time I can get with it.

How many GP are you generating? I put out 4 (2 GE, 2 GP) and could have put out atleast 1-2 more before the end of the game. I didn't go for music since it was 5 turns I think, but I may next time. If I can get lucky enough with my great people and avoid prophets I think I can get 2 GE and 4 either GS or GA. Add in the GA from music and the GS from phsyics and you get electricity and mass media for free. This has some possibilities.

I am thinking about building 1 extra city to put the Oracle in. That would let me control my GP a lot easier. Not sure if it would hurt my tech % that much. I was running 100% the entire game and managed +3 gold from trades.

OCC space races are somewhat crapshootish but fun--OCC conquest is where it's at. :D

Odd that 70% of my other CIV games have been OCCs and yet I didn't try one for this gauntlet.

Hey Big_Ben,

Great to hear you're trying the OCC. You need to check OCC. There are some rule changes. More than 2 national wonders as Shillen mentioned, but the one KEY rule change for OCC is that you only need 1 university for the Oxford University! Now, start over with OCC checked and try that if you haven't already.

I usually get 6 GP with Liz I think. I run pacifism too. Sometimes I build the National Epic.

Music should only cost you 2 turns, otherwise, you're researching it too soon.

Happiness...you nailed it. It's a big problem. You can have all the food in the world, but can't work the towns without happiness. It can be tough to trade for it. I can't imagine you can get a decent finish without size 13 - 15.

I checked OCC the first time but had to restart since the map sucked after I explored, forgot to check it the second time. I think I can get 13-15 happiness pretty easily, the question is, can i get it early enough? I will probalby try 1-2 OCC attempts and a couple normal attempts before the end of the gauntlet. We will see what I can do. Thanks for the idea though. It is an interesting challenge.

Happiness...you nailed it. It's a big problem. You can have all the food in the world, but can't work the towns without happiness. It can be tough to trade for it. I can't imagine you can get a decent finish without size 13 - 15.

Hi, the solution to all happiness problems in OCC is usually the Globe Theater national wonder. Don't know if that's too late/too great a deviation for you gauntlet-players, I'm not the gauntlet type ;)

Regards.

If you get lucky with a trade for drama early you may be able to benefit from it. I managed to control my happiness on a OCC attempt and was only limited by health/food production in the end. Capped my city at 13. Played the game rather well. Managed a 1300 OCC finish, which I think is pretty good. I have had trouble getting the Oracle with Lizzie so I played as Qin. My start wasn't that good. On a plains hill with flood plains, 3 silks, 2 sugar, sheep hill. I built cottages on 2 of the silks and 1 of the sugar.

If I would have had gems I think it would have been a couple turns faster. Great people kind of hurt me too. I managed to generate 2 GA (1 from music), 4 GE, 1 GS (from physics). If I would have made 2 more scientists instead of engineers I could have shortened the game a few turns as well.

I have no idea how you are managing a sub 1000 win with OCC. I could see 1100 being doable but you have to have an amazing start to finish sub 1000. Congratulations on that, btw. This was probably my last OCC attempt. They were fun but I think I have a better chance playing normally. Playing OCC did help me learn a few things. Going to see if applying them to a normal game can get me sub 1000.

Man, I am definitely going to have to practice. I tried a couple of OOC attempts and I am not even coming close. I must be researching the wrong tech path. Maybe I can do better with a regular game.

Yeah, OCC can be really hard. You almost HAVE to research code laws-civil service-paper and use the Oracle to get education. That is REALLY risky though. I have lost it several times. In a normal attempt I previously used a prophet for theology and the Oracle for paper. As Bill pointed out, to shave a few turns off of your time you almost have to risk researching paper and using the Oracle for education in the normal game as well. That is more of a risk since you have to balance having a high tech output with growth.

This is an interesting gauntlet in the fact that you can go about getting near the winning score with a couple different strategies. Being on normal speed kind of makes it bad since it makes it easier to get to the winning time. Right now I believe Bill is in 1st place by himself (and 2nd), wastintime after that, probably 3rd and 4th, and then I am not sure after that. I am definitely top 10, not sure if anyone else has beaten me yet. Guess we'll see. There will probably be several ties for the top spots.

I was going for education at first with the Oracle, but found it's faster and safer to just get Civil Service. You get to turn on bureaucracy sooner and can usually switch to Representation (from the Pyramids) for free during the same Anarchy to save a turn.

Regarding one person winning 1st, 3rd, 4th, 8th.....etc.
I think each person should only get one place. If I'm a long jumper and I get the two longest jumps, I don't get the gold and the silver.

The hall of fame allows for a member to have 2 positions on any given table in the HOF. I would imagine it is the same for the gauntlet. I know Bill captured 2 positions on the last gauntlet (I think it was the last one). I agree with the 2 spot rule though. I mean I would say that a player with a 850 ad and 900 ad finishes is better than a person with a 800 ad and 10 1500 ad finishes. It goes to actually point out the superior players.

BTW, I switch to representation, caste system, and beauracracy all in the same turn of anarchy. If I get pacifism early enough I will switch or if I need universal suffrage to buy the UN then I will switch, if not then I just keep those civics.

I'd be more inclined to change the rule "One Slot per Player per Gauntlet"

This means more people will get recognition in the Top Ten, which in turn should generate and sustain more interest.

- Bill

I gave an OCC a try with Elizabeth. Couple of games - my best outing was one where I had 5 to go on Paper and 6 on The Oracle when it was built about 600 BC.

Had Stonehenge and a prophet for Theology, but he had to wait awhile while I discovered Monarchy and Writing - do you guys take time to get Alphabet if you're trying to get Education from the Oracle? It didn't seem like there was enough time...

Just wanted to thank you guys for posting so much about the gauntlet. I'm still trying to learn the game and have found the posts here much more informative and interesting than in the GOTM threads.
I've learned a lot just from trying the gauntlet over and over. Good fun. Thanks again guys...

regoarrarr: Going for education depends on how you are playing. If I am playing a normal game (not OCC), my tech path goes: bronze-myst-pottery-alphabet-trade for medit, poly, masonry, mono (if you can) - theology (with prophet) - paper - education (oracle)

If playing OCC I don't build stonehenge, you don't need it, and my tech path looks like this: bronze-pottery-alphabet-(trade for masonry and myst)-priesthood-civil service-paper-education(oracle)

If you are using a prophet for theology, you don't need monarchy. If you have monotheism and writing, the prophet will research theo before monarchy. If you are playing OCC, you need civil service ASAP and convert to bureaucracy.

If playing this as OCC, it is ALL about the starting location. You MUST have the majority of your squares on a river. Gems are ideal but really hard to get. Gold is ok as long as you have several floodplains to offset the food loss by mining the gold. If you have multiple silk tiles on a river, build house on the ones by the river and only turn 1 into a plantation.

Thanks for the tips. My problem was that I didn't have Writing, and :weed: didn't realize that I needed it for Theology. When I finished Mono Moses wanted to research Monarchy, so I researched that. Then, when he wanted to research Writing next, is when I figured out my problem. I had a couple of other mistakes too but it was some good experience

Education VS. Civil Service in OCC.

The real goal is to get education (and the Oxford Universtiy) completed as soon as possible. You can either :

a) research CS, then turn on Bureaucracy to research Paper and get Edu for free.
b) take CS for free and then research Paper and Edu.

So, the question is, Can you reasearch Edu faster while running Bureaucracy than you can researching Civil Service? The answer is yes, research Edu yourself.

You waste 25 turns, give or take a few, researching CS. Just take it free with the Oracle and turn on Bureaucracy now. Another advantage is you want to use the same anarchy for the Pyramids change to Representation. Now you can change that sooner and grow your city sooner.
Also, you don't gamble on losing the oracle either.

Edu usually takes only 15-20 turns, so you're ahead of the game. I stopped going for Edu with the Oracle a long time ago.

Regarding starting location:
It's not such a big deal any more. I've realized that all I need to search for is a start with Stone. 90% of the time you will get a decent river and one food resource which is all you need. I don't even like to get gold..no food there.

Love these gauntlets, even though ive only played two of them. I've really had to change the way i play while trying this gauntlet. I dont think ive ever placed my capital on a deer before, just to get a quicker start. And not building stonehenge when playing as Elizabeth that just seemed like pure craziness ;)

Oh and i must say im impressed you managed to guess the finishdate so accurately, Bill. i was completely clueless myself.

Wastin: I will try getting CS for free and researching education myself next time. I haven't missed the Oracle playing OCC after that first 2 times. I still can't get a finish better than 1300 playing OCC. I have only had 1 start this entire gauntlet that had gems, actually had 2 grassland gems with a river on both. Only bad thing was that Frederick was 5 squares from my capital and took all of my trees in his cultural boundaries. Was also one of my first attempts.

Couple of questions for playing this OCC though. How many workers do you make? I only make 3, 1 to improve and 2 to chop. Not sure if 4 would be better though. Also, do you focus on growing to your maximum happiness as fast as possible even if it means not working a cottage ASAP or do you focus on getting your cottages to towns ASAP?

Well, I did completely blow the leader. Victoria? Whooo.. yeah, that was a major blunder. Still, two out of three ain't bad.

- Bill

Victoria could still be a viable option on OCC though. Haven't played with her yet but she could work out. With Lizzie I only get 3 GP at the most. Playing as Qin I landed 3 as well. If I would have had the right resources I could have popped a 4th with Lizzie but I don't think that would be much help. With Victoria the extra +2 health could help out with growth a little bit. There are a few times that I stalled because of health problems. I may give her a go later tonight to see what she can do.

Couple of questions for playing this OCC though. How many workers do you make? I only make 3, 1 to improve and 2 to chop. Not sure if 4 would be better though. Also, do you focus on growing to your maximum happiness as fast as possible even if it means not working a cottage ASAP or do you focus on getting your cottages to towns ASAP?

I usually have 3 workers, never considered 4. Three sometimes run out of things to do. Once I only had 2 workers when there weren't many trees. But if you don't have a lot of trees, you might as well start a new game, right?

I will work a corn tile for a while to get my population up ASAP. You really want to get everything up to Village because of the Printing Press bonus. I'll stop working a Village to start on another cottage.

Only 3 GP? I usually get 7. Here's how:
1. Chop out the Pyramids by 2000BC. With Liz, you get an engineer 25 turns later (a few turns less with the oracle boosting the birth rate).

2. Take the detour to Literature before Paper. When the engineer pops out, use it to build the Great Library. Now, with the oracle too, you're at +24 birth rate. In about 9 turns, you'll get a scientist (hopefully) to build the Academy.

3. Only 12 turns later you get another GP, again, with a high probability of being a scientist. It's probably about 500 BC now. I use the scientist as a super specialist instead of saving him for electricity or something like that.
With the Oxford University coming soon, you get 9 beakers + 200-225%. So around 30 beakers per turn. I figured that's better than saving them until the end, but now, writing this, I realized it might be better to use them early, like to finish education. hmm...

anyway, if you build the hanging gardens, that should help pop out another engineer. Especially since you lose the Great Lib. after Sci Method. You only need one for the UN, then rush buy the rest.

The problem with trying to use the GS for education is that you need those other boneheads you're playing with to give you Mathematics first. This gauntlet would be a lot easier (for OCC) if it were on Immortal. In fact, I think OCC would win earliest finish at higher skill levels, because the city maintenence is way too high for 10-12 cities. I thought they "fixed" the old corruption problem from Civ III, but city maintenence is just as bad or worse if you've ever played on the higher levels.

I dont suppose the next gauntlet will be presented when this one closes? :)

Otherwise i might have to squeeze in the gotm. Damn civ4 and its addictive gameplay :p

what timezone does this gauntlet end? ;)

Smilies are also addictive :p

Er? When did the closing date get changed to February 9th? I could have sworn it ended on the 4th.. I haven't been playing for a week, and had been really quite puzzled why they hadn't released the winners...

Well, oops. Ah well.

- Bill

there's still a few hours left for you to get another game in! ;)

i think im just about ready for a new gauntlet now. or atleast a break from this one. Would just end up doing the same things over and over again if i played more.

there's still a few hours left for you to get another game in! ;)
14 hours, at least.;)

I am still convinced that using the Oracle for education is the way to go, even if for OCC. I like you idea of using the first engineer for the great library, worked out pretty well for me in my last game. I didn't manage to get another GE though so I was hurting in the end. Finished mass media in 1060, finished the UN around 1220 or something. Sucked.

I know I don't have enogh time to pull off a win right now but I would like to best my time though. I would be happy with sub 1100. I will probably get in 1 more game later tonight.

Ive always gone for CS with oracle. Education just isnt as important in normal games as in OOC. I dont even bother with oxford university anymore.

Not trying to get paper fast lets me expand more early on and still allows me to build the oracle somewhat early. I was fortunate enough to have an AI complete oracle at 1000BC one of my games though. Ended up as yet another unfinished game ;(

Feel like playing an OCC game now but im so not playing this gauntlet again ;p

The reason I go for education is that it requires the most beakers to research compared to other techs around that time in the game. I haven't done the math as to how much you get if you have CS earlier though, so I can't say which is truly better. My last game I was planning on using the Oracle for CS but my pop jumped really fast and I had mostly hamlets/villages by that time so my tech rate was pretty nice. I let my city build the Oracle normally instead of chopping and finished right after I hit paper, so it worked out. I also managed to get CS a few turns after I maxed my happiness so I didn't lose anything by waiting to switch civics.

The Gauntlet has concluded:

1 pooLarized 85937 800 AD Russia (Catherine)
2 pooLarized 95369 880 AD England (Elizabeth)
3 BlueRenner 65201 880 AD England (Elizabeth)
4 BlueRenner 77919 960 AD Russia (Catherine)
5 WastinTime 15471 1020 AD England (Elizabeth)
6 Big_Ben 66971 1100 AD Russia (Catherine)
7 Big_Ben 66813 1140 AD England (Elizabeth)
8 jOe chOOch 55954 1140 AD Russia (Catherine)
9 fluffyflyingpig 32501 1140 AD Mali (Mansa Musa)
10 jOe chOOch 41031 1180 AD England (Elizabeth)

Eh? How is a 870 win possible? Shouldn't that be 880?

Congrats to all. 800 is very impressive pooLarized, care to share a write up?

Although I would love to say that I had the #2 and #6 entries, those were when I had it set on Marathon speed instead of normal speed. My best finishes on Normal were 1100 and 1140.

So the list should read:

1 pooLarized 85937 800 AD Russia (Catherine)
2 pooLarized 95369 880 AD England (Elizabeth)
3 BlueRenner 65201 880 AD England (Elizabeth)
4 BlueRenner 77919 960 AD Russia (Catherine)
5 WastinTime 15471 1020 AD England (Elizabeth)
6 Big_Ben 66971 1100 AD Russia (Catherine)
7 Big_Ben 66813 1140 AD England (Elizabeth)
8 jOe chOOch 55954 1140 AD Russia (Catherine)
9 fluffyflyingpig 32501 1140 AD Mali (Mansa Musa)
10 jOe chOOch 41031 1180 AD England (Elizabeth)

I still didn't do too bad though. I figured I would be around 7th place again. I am pretty impressed with my performance again.


Congratulations to everyone who participated.

this was my first gauntlet and my first expierence with playing diplo. i never would have opted for that type of game on my own. this gauntlet has expanded my appreciation for civ even more. also, i never would have made the top ten or even have come close if hadnt been for the great strategy ideas posted here, particularly ben. thanks for sharing your insights into the game so openly. you made me a better all around player.

Your welcome. I started playing the month before the first gauntlet. Reading the strats for the gauntlets has taught me a lot, just want to give back.

If it wasn't for Orca, Walker, and BlueRenner I would never have done as well as I have so far. (I am sure I am leaving out a ton of others)

Thanks for catching me on that mistake. I've fixed the relevant threads and the front page news.

I gotta say it one more time with the Top 10 (Top 6) list showing.
It looks strange having players take more than one spot. The person who figures out and executes the best strategy will mostly likely consume two of the top 3 spots. It would be better to name some of the others who now got bumped to 11th-15th. It would also be interesting to know how the 10th best player did...Was it 1300 AD? 1400?
(I only submitted one game so I'd be on there once.)