Welcome to the first C3C SG run entirely on the Mac, in celebration of the much-anticipated Mac release.

We are Mac Mayaniac of the Maya, playing on Monarch level against 7 random opponents.

Map Settings:
Large map
Restless barbarians
Continents, 70% water
Warm climate

All other settings are default.

Here's our start:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/MacMayaStart.jpg

A quick stop by F10 indicates that our opponents are the Aztecs, Iroquois, Dutch, English, Portuguese, Spanish, and Celts. Nice - 4 new civs, and 3 with major changes. No vanilla civs.

We've got a river, wheat, and gold. There also seems to be a coast that we could reach in one move, but that would take us away from the river and put the wheat and one BG outside our radius until the first border pop. We can irrigate the wheat and make our capital into a settler factory if we so desire.

Once everyone has checked in, I can play the first 20 turns, and then we can start on a 10-turn rotation.

Roster (based on signup order from the other thread and me starting)
Beamup
dojoboy
Serkhon
Blue Monkey
frunobolax
Aoxomoxoa

Standard 24 hours to post a "got it," 48 hours to play.

My intention would be to found on the spot. Moving away from the river would be quite painful for us, since it'll lose us the bonus city food until we get out of Despotism. The wheat and BGs are also an important factor. I would start researching Warrior Code at 100%, and get Warriors out for scouting while working a mix of BG for production and Wheat for growth.

Here's the save:

dojoboy in the house! :D

Should you play an intial 10 turn rotation, then we each play 20 turn rotations from then on? I believe that is commonplace.

I'm pretty sure the standard is the other way around, due to early turns being very fast.

Beamup, look like a nice start. Just so I'm clear (remember, this is my 1st SG), I take my 10 turns after Blue Monkey posts his file, correct? I've never attached files in this forum, but I'm assuming all I do is click the paper clip icon and then find my file in the documents folder?

..., due to early turns being very fast.

Right, which is a reason for 20 turns versus 10.

Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=160098&postcount=1) is the general description.

I'm flexible, but with that said, I'd much prefer to play 20 turn increments.

I'm flexible, but with that said, I'd much prefer to play 20 turn increments.
Sure, we can do that. We can always cut back to 10 if they're taking to long later in the game.

Just so I'm clear (remember, this is my 1st SG), I take my 10 turns after Blue Monkey posts his file, correct? I've never attached files in this forum, but I'm assuming all I do is click the paper clip icon and then find my file in the documents folder?
It'll be 20 turns now, but that's pretty much right. Blue Monkey posts the save from the end of his turn, you post to say "got it," then play your turns and post the final save.

As for files, you should make sure to zip (or stuff) it before you post it - this particular file was reduced by 98%, so it really is important! Then, when you're writing your post, there'll be a "manage attachments" button (scroll down to find it) which you click, then browse to the file. Screenshots should be uploaded using this procedure (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=55122) so that they can be posted inline, instead of at the end of the post. Try to keep them reasonably small (.jpg is a good choice).

Preliminary roster (based on signup order from the other thread and me starting)
Beamup (up?)
dojoboy (on deck?)
Serkhon
Blue Monkey
Metropolis Man
frunobolax


This order is good with me. I may PM thos other guys to expedite their "registration."

As for files, you should make sure to zip (or stuff) it before you post it - this particular file was reduced by 98%, so it really is important! Then, when you're writing your post, there'll be a "manage attachments" button (scroll down to find it) which you click, then browse to the file. Screenshots should be uploaded using this procedure (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=55122) so that they can be posted inline, instead of at the end of the post. Try to keep them reasonably small (.jpg is a good choice).

Can't I shrink files directly within OS X? I've got Stuffit Expander to expand files, but don't you need the Deluxe version to shrink files?

You can zip files from the Terminal. Just type

zip (targetfile).zip (file to be zipped)

where, of course, you replace the stuff in parentheses with the appropriate filenames.

I'll view the save file tonight, around 8:30 EST, to offer thoughts.

Ready to go. I'd say move the worker onto the grain first and see if there is anything we might miss before settling. Exploring down the river might reveal a good second city site but that would mean moving away from the center of the map.

Ready to go. I'd say move the worker onto the grain first and see if there is anything we might miss before settling. Exploring down the river might reveal a good second city site but that would mean moving away from the center of the map.

We should scout along the river w/ our first two warriors assigned to exploration.

Fruno checking in - nice looking start!

Agree with Beamup to build capital city in place ('Macmayania'?), establishing a settler factory, with worker going to irrigate wheat then mine the shield-grassland tile NE of that. Agree with dojo re. scouting downriver with warriors (SW).

[OT: am I the only non-American here?]

I think we need to set some hard rules regarding governors and workers. Like, no governors and no automating workers. I was assuming this was a given, but...better to check w/ the group.

I think we need to set some hard rules regarding governors and workers. Like, no governors and no automating workers. I was assuming this was a given, but...better to check w/ the group.

Good suggestion, I agree - I've never automated governors or workers in any games I've played.

Absolutely. No automation - which I also was assuming was a given.

Definitely no worker automation. The only situation where I feel it's allowable is to clear pollution in the Industrial Age and beyond.

Something else we haven't really discussed is Science and Entertainment sliders. Beamup mentioned he was going to research Warrior Code at 100%. My only thinking on that is if we take 50 turns at 10 or 20% we'll have the gold to also buy a tech when we meet up with another civ. I'm not sure how much gold we'll have if we max out research right away. Not to mention at Monarch difficulty we only have 2 content citizens before revolt. If research is maxed then there is little we can do to make citizens happy (aside from 2 warriors garrisoned) at the get-go.

Something else we haven't really discussed is Science and Entertainment sliders. Beamup mentioned he was going to research Warrior Code at 100%. My only thinking on that is if we take 50 turns at 10 or 20% we'll have the gold to also buy a tech when we meet up with another civ. I'm not sure how much gold we'll have if we max out research right away. Not to mention at Monarch difficulty we only have 2 content citizens before revolt. If research is maxed then there is little we can do to make citizens happy (aside from 2 warriors garrisoned) at the get-go.

I'm in agreement w/ Beamup.

In Despotism, increasing the happiness slider is wasting gold. Hey, we're despotic. Remember? ;) Once in Republic, then give it a bump.

Also, a treasury before Republic is only good for purchasing techs because you can't rush production w/ gold in despotism.

As to purchasing techs rather than researching them - this would completely restrict our ability to gain techs that are important to our goals (short term and long term). For example, if we did use the Republic slingshot and ignored other techs to get there ASAP. The AI would throw AA techs at our feet for Republic. Actually for CoL or Philosophy first, then we can collect later for Republic. Also, we could time trading Republic, or giving it, to a nearby civ whom we have plans to attack. Once they have, wait a turn, check to see if they're in anarchy, then attack. They'll likely be with out production for 5 - 6 turns (unless they're a religious trait civ).

I've played your approach before MM, but I really feel it's counter productive on Monarch and below. Also, in C3C, the AI does not sell techs as easily as in Civ3 due to code changes.

I'm in agreement w/ Beamup.

In Despotism, increasing the happiness slider is wasting gold. Hey, we're despotic. Remember? ;) Once in Republic, then give it a bump.

Also, a treasury before Republic is only good for purchasing techs because you can't rush production w/ gold in despotism.

As to purchasing techs rather than researching them - this would completely restrict our ability to gain techs that are important to our goals (short term and long term). For example, if we did use the Republic slingshot and ignored other techs to get there ASAP. The AI would throw AA techs at our feet for Republic. Actually for CoL or Philosophy first, then we can collect later for Republic. Also, we could time trading Republic, or giving it, to a nearby civ whom we have plans to attack. Once they have, wait a turn, check to see if they're in anarchy, then attack. They'll likely be with out production for 5 - 6 turns (unless they're a religious trait civ).

I've played your approach before MM, but I really feel it's counter productive on Monarch and below. Also, in C3C, the AI does not sell techs as easily as in Civ3 due to code changes.

It all sounds good. I'll keep the 'ol research slider maxed. So are we all in agreement that the first order of research business is a beeline to Republic?

It all sounds good. I'll keep the 'ol research slider maxed. So are we all in agreement that the first order of research business is a beeline to Republic?

I believe we are going for WC first, inorder to build JTs.

I'd love to join in if you guys need another or a sub.

Aoxomoxoa

Busy all day, just downloaded the save. i'm in but don't wait for my input to start first round; I'm perfectly content to be late in the rotation since this way I'm able to learn the collective wisdom on optimal strategy as well as insights into "Complete".

PS: I'm all for adding Aoxomoxoa to the rotation.

Let's be clear - when I say "research at 100%," that does not preclude using the entertainment slider. It just precludes taxes. Running some entertainment is a much better option than using an entertainer in general, and should be used as needed.

Anyway, since everyone is signed in, I'll play the first 20 turns sometime today.

And while I have no objection to adding Aoxomoxoa, I feel pretty strongly that we should cut back to 10 turns if we do. The great majority of SGs use 10-turn rotations (the listing in the What's an SG thread notwithstanding), and having 120 turns pass before you get the game back is just way too long. In fact, I'm now rethinking my earlier agreement to do 20 in the first place - nobody'll get to play very many rounds even with a roster of 6.

So, let's vote. 20 turns or 10? I say we go with the standard setup of 20 turns for the first player, then 10 thereafter.

I'm fine with 10.

Let's be clear - when I say "research at 100%," that does not preclude using the entertainment slider. It just precludes taxes. Running some entertainment is a much better option than using an entertainer in general, and should be used as needed.

Anyway, since everyone is signed in, I'll play the first 20 turns sometime today.

And while I have no objection to adding Aoxomoxoa, I feel pretty strongly that we should cut back to 10 turns if we do. The great majority of SGs use 10-turn rotations (the listing in the What's an SG thread notwithstanding), and having 120 turns pass before you get the game back is just way too long. In fact, I'm now rethinking my earlier agreement to do 20 in the first place - nobody'll get to play more than 4-5 rounds even with a roster of 6.

So, let's vote. 20 turns or 10? I say we go with the standard setup of 20 turns for the first player, then 10 thereafter.

Aoxomoxoa? Aye, he is of noble blood.

Ten turns? Aye. (I did peruse some SGs and noticed this, TDGs especially.)

10 turns fine with me

A majority being in favor, we will do 10 turns and add Aoxo to the roster. First post edited accordingly. First 20 turns coming soon (I hope).

Beamup, what is the official rotation as of now. Is Blue Monkey not joining us until later?

4000 BC (1): Worker moves to the wheat. Seeing nothing of consequence, Chichen Itza is founded on the spot. Research begun on WC at 100%, expected in 27 turns.

Examining the spot, turning the city into a Settler factory will require irrigating the Wheat and mining two BGs and one regular grassland (could do three BGs, but only two are on the river). This will allow us a 4-turn factory as so:
1 - At size 4, work Wheat + 2 mined BG + mined grass (6 shields)
2 - Grow to size 5, gov will work a forest (14 shields)
3 - Move citizen from forest to BG (21 shields)
4 - Grow to size 6, gov will work a forest (30 shields), Settler built, drops back to 4.

Means we'll need 2 happy or content faces always, 3 sometimes. No luxuries in sight yet, so we're looking at 2 MPs and running entertainment half the time, or 3 MPs.

Also, we're about at the headwaters of the river here.

3950 BC (2): Road+Irrigate and Irrigate+Road both finish the irrigation in time for it to be used the first turn at size 2, and irrigating first won't get to size 2 any faster. Accordingly I Road first for a few extra beakers.

3900 BC (3): :sleep:

3850 BC (4): Road completes, WC time drops to 19 turns. Start
irrigation.

3800 BC (5): :sleep:

3750 BC (6): CI grows. I inform the locals that we'd really rather grow than finish the warrior 1 turn sooner - work the BG. WC time now 14 turns.

3700 BC (7): Irrigation complete, move to the BG on this side of the
river to mine it.

3650 BC (8): Warrior completes, heads downstream to explore and spots the river mouth a little SW of CI. Short river, unfortunately. Start mine.

3600 BC (9): Explore...

3550 BC (10): CI grows and will be unhappy. 10% entertainment takes care of it - I want to get two Warriors out before we use them as MP.

3500 BC (11): Border pop. WC in 9.

3450 BC (12): New Warrior heads north to explore. First Warrior spots two cows to the SW, next to an isthmus which he will not explore yet. He needs to head back north to fill in more of the area around CI.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/MacMaya3450.JPG

3400 BC (13): More exploring.

3350 BC (14): CI grows just as the MP warrior completes... just as I planned it. That's why I mined the BG before the road. Move to second BG to begin work.

3300 BC (15): Spot a hut.

3250 BC (16): Second MP completes, we now have unit support costs and are running a deficit. Start on a Settler before Granary to get that under control (subject to veto as it will not complete before the end of my turns). Science back at 100%. Pop the hut and get gold. Northern Warrior spots Spices! We'll want those ASAP to keep CI happy.

3200 BC (17): More exploring.

3150 BC (18): CI grows, needs entertainment again. Drop science to 50% to not waste beakers.

3100 BC (19): WC completes, start on Alphabet, intending on a Republic slingshot or at least trading fodder. Due in 23 after raising science again.

3050 BC (20): Nothing much.

I save the file before hitting End Turn. The Settler is due in 1, at which point the entertainment slider can be zeroed again. Or, the Settler could be vetoed and a Granary built (whipped?) instead. It's time for a dotmap - I've attached a JPG with a view of our entire empire along with the save. Anybody care to take a shot at it (remember, we really want to be on the river as much as possible)? My personal inclination is to grab the Spices first - that's the direction the other Civs likely are anyway. That site could then start some JTs. The cows could make for a very nice worker factory with very little effort.

When the Worker finishes his current task, he should move due South and mine/road that grassland to complete the preparation of CI as a Settler factory. Also, remember that isthmus I skipped exploring - a scout should be sent down there when convenient.

Roster:
Beamup (just played)
dojoboy (up!)
Serkhon (on deck)
Blue Monkey
Metropolis Man
frunobolax
Aoxomoxoa

@ Metropolis Man: I'd understood Blue Monkey's post to indicate that he would be prepared to play when it came around to him. If he isn't, a swap or skip is always possible. The "official" roster is above, but very open to changes if anyone so desires.

Good foundation Beamup.

Re: Settlements.

Settling at the mouth of the river first will allow us to get a couple curraghs out. Then we could settle west of there for the cows. I believe we've got time to secure the spices, but if anyone's nervous about it, we can go there sooner than later. We should be able to squeeze two more settlements on the river. Those BGs to the West and North look nice as well.

I'll grab the save this evening, around 6:30 EST, with the above as my initial intent - unless better options are presented. But, I'll post "Got it" first to let everyone know play is imminent.

One thing, a confession. I never MM my cities to prevent disorder. If it hits, I adjust. But, what indicators are you using when MM to prevent disorder? Simply pop, assuming the next growth will be unhappy?

Settling at the mouth of the river first will allow us to get a couple curraghs out. Then we could settle west of there for the cows. I believe we've got time to secure the spices, but if anyone's nervous about it, we can go there sooner than later. We should be able to squeeze two more settlements on the river. Those BGs to the West and North look nice as well.
Sounds reasonable, but I think an explicit dotmap would be beneficial. I'd do one myself, but ATM I don't have ready access to a app that will do it gracefully.

One thing, a confession. I never MM my cities to prevent disorder. If it hits, I adjust. But, what indicators are you using when MM to prevent disorder? Simply pop, assuming the next growth will be unhappy?
I simply scan F1 at the end of every turn and look for cities with more citizens unhappy than happy. The fact that the disorder check happens before growth means that you have one turn to deal with it between the time the unhappy citizen appears and the time they riot. During that turn, it's very easy to see what'll happen. No anticipation needed.

Sounds reasonable, but I think an explicit dotmap would be beneficial. I'd do one myself, but ATM I don't have ready access to a app that will do it gracefully.


Having no dotmap making experience. Here is one. The white dot to the north is an option to the red dot to its southwest (1 tile).

Poor Man's Dot Map (http://home.comcast.net/~dojoboy/poor_mans_dot_map.JPG)

Having no dotmap making experience. Here is one. The white dot to the north is an option to the red dot to its southwest (1 tile).
Hmmm. Tighter spacing than I normally use, but quite workable. The main modification I'd suggest would be to take the far north dot (the one on the hill) and move it NE onto the plain. I've never been a fan of cities on hills.

I'd also definitely prefer the white dot - the red is way too cramped, and it doesn't really gain anything by being that close. If the river went up there, I could see it, but as is...

So you'd intend to found the two dots on the river first? Seems reasonable.

So you'd intend to found the two dots on the river first? Seems reasonable.

At least the one along the coast. The white dot, which I too like best, would add more production w/ the BGs. Then, maybe the fourth settlement back on the river?

Thanks guys for letting me in. One question, I understand the tactic of the tighter city spacing in C3C, and have been fooling around with games since picking it up at macworld... but don't we have a real potential heavyweight of a settler factory to the west with the cows?

Aoxo

@ dojoboy
Those three and the spices (the hill or plains site) are the best available, I agree. I'm just thinking of being able to pull one of the MPs out of CI or use less entertainment.

Do as you see fit, of course.

@ Aoxo
Yes, a site SW of dojoboy's northern dot on the river would be a very good settler factory. Mine the cows and BG, plus one other grassland, and it could be a 3-4 factory instead of 4-5 like CI. But we've already got CI basically set up as a settler factory, so we need to consider whether we want two, or do something different. It's a good suggestion.

@ dojoboy
Those three and the spices (the hill or plains site) are the best available, I agree. I'm just thinking of being able to pull one of the MPs out of CI or use less entertainment.


How many turns do you anticipate it'd take to connect the luxury resource to CI? I'm thinking we need a few workers, along w/ the curragh, settlers and MPs for the two new settlements. I'm only coming up with this thought as our converstaion moves along. If we settle by the luxuries sooner rather than later, would we be in position to take advantage of them any quicker?

A hit! A hit! A most palpable hit!

Translation: Yeah, you're right. Didn't think about that.

I got it. Should be posting my results later tonight.

How many turns do you anticipate it'd take to connect the luxury resource to CI? I'm thinking we need a few workers, along w/ the curragh, settlers and MPs for the two new settlements. I'm only coming up with this thought as our converstaion moves along. If we settle by the luxuries sooner rather than later, would we be in position to take advantage of them any quicker?

I don't think we are in any danger of losing them. It will definitely make MM easier having a luxury in the box. If we can get our area settled fast, it looks like we can have a very healthy number of well resourced cities. There's a decent amount of food, a bonus luxury in sight, the river to nw looks like a more substantial waterway than CI's and we can produce alot of settlers fast if we choose to.

You know what else is cool? I've actually been to Chichen Itza.

Aoxo

Preturn (3050 BC) -> Reviewed F1 et al screens.

1) 3000 BC ->CI b. settler, set to settler.

2) 2950 BC -> Scouting; worker begins building road in forest tile N of CI.

3) 2900 BC -> Scouting.

4) 2850 BC -> Copan built to the south at the mouth of the river, set to warrior.

5) 2800 BC -> Contact made w/ Iroquios; trade WC & Masonry for Alphabet & CB; Iroquois knows BW; set reaserch for Writing; road built.

6) 2750 BC -> CI b. settler, set to settler; worker begins building road to Copan.

7) 2710 BC -> Scouting.

8) 2670 BC -> Palenque b. N of CI, set to warrior.

9) 2630 BC -> Copan b. warrior, set to curragh.

10) 2590 BC -> Scouting.

Recap: Other than meeting the Iroquois and establishing 2 more settlements, no real excitement occurred. I trade techs w/ the AI - one of those people. We had 10 turns left for Alphabet, so I banked on "exponential potential" by saving us 10 turns. The Iroquois still has only BW. Relations are polite. No sign of barbs. We have 22 turns remaining for Writing, suggest CoL next, then Philosophy for Republic slingshot. Can't think of another tech I rather have for free in the age, right now. Sliders remain at 0 - 9 - 1 w/ a treasury of 27 gold - breaking even each turn. There are about 3 gems located north along the west coast. The Iroquois know they're there.

Beamup
dojoboy (just played)
Serkhon (up!)
Blue Monkey (on deck)
Metropolis Man
frunobolax
Aoxomoxoa

The triangles are options for settlement (click dot map1). It may be time to go for the spices and build a couple workers in Copan after the curragh is ready.

Dot Map1 (http://home.comcast.net/~dojoboy/dot_map1.jpg)

Larger View

I'm here, and following the discussion. It looks like my turn will probably come soon: perfect. I hardly have any time to play Mondays or Wednesdays (weird school schedule). I can devote most of any other day to this. I will post my thinking in advance of actually playing my turn to seek advice.

The triangles are options for settlement (click dot map1). It may be time to go for the spices

I'd be inclined to go for a city at that northernmost dot; sugar and spice, and that outlet to the coast makes everything nice.

Guys, I need to bow out for now. Sorry! I was looking forward to this, but some other stuff came up.

I have it.

I think we should build at least one worker in the north (Palenque), that city will be a big producer for us, plus we can get that road working to the spices/capital.

Aoxo

Things seemed to go quite well dunno how long that will last though.

(01) 2550 BC
Luxury Down to 0% Science up to 100%
Worker Finishes Road to Copan
Writing Due in 15
Sent Warrior from Copan to check if we can round the pennisula in the south with our Curragh

(02) 2510 BC
Chichen Itza Settler -> Settler
Sending Settler towards the Spices
Sent Worker North to star working on a road towards the spices
Found Iroquois Borders to the North

(03) 2470 BC
Palenque Complete Warrior Starts work on a worker
Worker starts on the spice road

(04) 2430 BC
Looks like there probably is a long pennisula to the South going to send the Curragh north

(05) 2390 BC
Warrior in the south starts heading back to Copan
Discover more gems in the North

(06) 2350 BC
Worker continues work on the spice road

(07) 2310 BC
Copan Curragh -> Worker

(08) 2270 BC
Palenque Worker -> Barracks ( Change it to what ever you want but it looks like we might be fighting in the future)
Tikal founded

(09) 2230 BC
Worker 1 Continues work on spice road
Worker 2 Helps with spice road

(10) 2190 BC
Chichen Itza Settler -> Settler
Worker 1 Move to start the next section of the spice road
Worker 2 Starts a mine

113849

Handover Notes: Theres a settler wait in Chichen Itza we should probably use it at 1,2 or 3 immediately otherwise we'll be sealed in our current area and lose our chance to get the gems. Relations with the Iroquois are good, we are average in military, but are behind in 2 techs (BW and Mysticism). The barracks in Palenque could be changed to whatever you want but I'm expecting the Iroquois might not be so friendly if we establish a city up by the gems.

Settling Prospects Along with the sites from the previous dotmaps there are 5 potential sites for the near future : 1 Allows for sea access, eventually the gold and a few more plains at the cost of 1 gems initially, 2 EDIT: Is inferior to 1 in every way and we shouldn't take it unless we really need 2 gems in the initial city radius, 3 could become a productive city in the future but it'll be very hard to defend in the event of a war, 4 and 5 look to be good expansion sites.

Beamup
dojoboy
Serkhon (just played)
Blue Monkey (up)
frunobolax (on deck)
Aoxomoxoa

113851

Totally agree about the barracks in Palenque. Iroquois will not be happy with having as many as 3 (see furs to the SE) luxuries.

If they do attack, we will have to be prepared to have a Golden Age since we will have our Javelin Throwers. The nice thing about them is we can acquire a whole BUNCH of workers that way.

Si I would suggest having Palenque focus alot on JT's and keep them strategically positioned in the north to respond.

As far as the far north city position, if we found it, we will have to guard it with siginificant units, if we don't iroquois will and we can always take it from them and have a settler ready to go in that case.

Aoxo

Serkhon is right. What land is remaining to our south can be settled with out worry. We'll have to back-fill. I vote for 1, 4, and 5. Then, a race for the furs - need a second city working on a settler. I'd even recommend giving the Iroquois 1 gpt to keep them polite while we stock JTs. More workers needed - that's an extensive public works project to connect the gems plus the military needs those roads.

Remember, the Iroquois are one of the less aggressive civs. I think the odds of their attacking are primarily based on how much room they have to the north. The AI isn't really smart enough to say, "hey, they stole my luxuries, I'm mad now!"

So we need to get our scouts north to find out. The one by Niagra Falls can cross their borders in one turn - Hiawatha is likely to yell at us, but that has no real significance. We really need to know whether we're likely to have to fight them in the AA. Because if we are, we should do it sooner rather than later - i.e. hit them first before they have a chance to get Horseback Riding! We do not want to face Mounted Warriors if there's any way around it.

Also, it seems we haven't finished turning CI into a settler factory. It still needs a Granary and a mined grassland. Our Settler production is a LOT slower than it could be because of it. That should be the immediate build priority IMO, especially since we're in the middle of a landgrab race here.

Other than that, I agree with what's been said so far. I'll take a more detailed look later and see if I have any more comments.

Edit: OK, a few more comments. I guess we currently don't have anything to trade, but I would strongly advise we keep Writing to ourselves until we're well into researching Philosophy. Anyway, we should research CoL after Writing but keep an eye on the Iroquois. If they show up with Writing, we should maybe go for Philosophy before CoL.

Also, there are barbarians near Copan! We should get a JT down there to hunt them down.

Finally, CI must stop producing Settlers until it can get a Granary. It's just taking way too long now. The worker from Copan's first job needs to be mining a grassland for CI to finish preparing it as a settler factory.

Also, it seems we haven't finished turning CI into a settler factory. It still needs a Granary and a mined grassland. Our Settler production is a LOT slower than it could be because of it. That should be the immediate build priority IMO, especially since we're in the middle of a landgrab race here.
.....

Finally, CI must stop producing Settlers until it can get a Granary. It's just taking way too long now. The worker from Copan's first job needs to be mining a grassland for CI to finish preparing it as a settler factory.

Creating a settler factory is nothing I've taken the time to really learn, ashamed to admit because it's doctrine around here. Explain it to me Beamup, for someone who never made it beyond Alegbra II. I know it's to do with balancing growth and production to time settler production every 4 turns. At least I read about the 4 turn settler factory.

I've dl the 2190 BC SAV, but won't get a chance to really look at it 'til late tonight (Friend's anniversary celeb. all day).

My understanding of the Situation as handed off:
Keep Luxury Down & Science up to get Writing (Due in 15)
sending the Curragh north to explore
Worker 1 starting the next section of the spice road
Worker 2 Starts a mine

Building Cues as they stand:
Copan building Worker
Palenque building Barracks
Chichen Itza building Settler
Tikal building ?

Marching Orders ?
Build Cues:
Palenque to build JTs after Barracks finished.
Change CI build to Granary.
Need more Workers.

Unit Assignments:
Worker near Copan to mine grassland for CI.
Build roads to connect the gems plus the military needs
Scouts north to find out Iriquois geo options.
Send Settler (if/when built) to 1 (4 as secondary choice)

Diplomacy, etc.:
gift the Iroquois to keep them polite. Keep an eye on their research progress.
Keep Writing to ourselves; research CoL after Writing unless Iriquois change our plans.

I too want to hear more about Settler Factories.

Any other suggestions to help me do a good job of looking at the SAV? I'll post again with my final plan before beginning my turn; i'll be able to play extensively overnight and tomorrow.

The basic concept behind a Settler factory is that, if you have 5 surplus food and a granary, you can produce the population for a Settler in 4 turns. If you then arrange to have enough shields that you produce 30 of them in 4 turns, you end up with a perfectly cyclic machine that pumps out Settlers every 4 turns like clockwork with minimal management.

In this particular situation, we can set it up like this:

Turn 1: Size 4, Granary full. Needs 10 food to grow to 5, 0 shields currently stored towards Settler. Set for 6 shields and 5 surplus food.
After turn 1: 5 food and 6 shields produced. Need 5 and 24 now.
Turn 2: No management.
After turn 2: City grows. Gov will put the new citizen on a forest, so 8 shields are produced. 14 total now, and city is size 5 with 10 food to size 6.
Turn 3: Move citizen from forest to BG.
After turn 3: 5 food and 7 shields produced, so need 5 food for size 6 and 9 shields to complete the settler.
Turn 4: No management.
After turn 4: City grows to 6. Again the new citizen will work a forest, so 9 shields are produced and the Settler is completed. So, the city drops back to size 4.

And then you're right back where you started.

The currently missing ingredients to this plan are:
- We don't have quite enough shields yet. We can get 6 shields at size 4, but we can't get 7 at size 5. Hence, we need to mine a grassland to get one more shield.
- The Granary. Without a granary, we can produce settlers every 8 turns at most, since that's how long it takes to grow 2 points of population.

So, to set this up, CI should immediately swap to a Granary, and that one grassland should be mined. Try to time it so that the Granary will complete at size 4 with the food box half full (i.e. the Granary is full). Then, we can start pumping Settlers every 4 turns.

It would also be beneficial to set up a Worker factory. The Cows site is ideal for this. We want a surplus of 5 food, and 3 shields - this is very easily arranged with cows. Then, every 4 turns, that city will grow 1 point (without a Granary) and produce a Worker. Alternatively, we can do 5 food, 5 shields, and a Granary to pop a Worker every 2 turns, but I don't think we need that many since we're Industrious slavers.

You can also check out this War Academy article. (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/settler_factory.php)

Thanks to Beamup for the factory explanations. Since noone has made any adverse comments I'm assuming my plan in post 53 is acceptable and will play accordingly.

0) 2190 BC: unfinished turn - settler sent to 1. Changed CI build to granary, shift from wheat to mg to build in 12 vs. 20.

1) 2150 BC: Westernmost scout sent through mountains; Easternmost sent across narrowest band of land through Iroquois territory. Worker continues road to Tikal. Curragh continues north toward river mouth.

2) 2110 BC: Copan builds worker, set to build another. Worker sent to CI, will then start mine. Western scout encounters barb warrior at end of move. Iroquois have founded Grand River at location 3. Decide to continue to send settler to 1 because of value of resources even though I know this will hasten conflict with them.

3) 2070 BC: Iroquois contested intrusion; made apologies and gifted 2 gold, they return to polite. They have Bronze-Working & Mysticism. WestScout delays attacking Barb, moves north: oops another barb. Curragh continuing N to next river mouth.

4) 2030 BC: West scout defeats 3 barbs, gains Vet status, encounters Irq warrior. EastScout moves N then NW parallel to Irq border. Worker completes mine, sent to aid Tikal road build.

5) 1990 BC: WScout moves NE along ridge line parallel to Irq border. Road complete to Tikal; will extend road to spice.

6) 1950 BC: Irq are building Pyramid. WScout sees goody hut, will move to it. Curragh rounding cape to continue N. EScout turning more N. Drop Research to 90%; still get Writing next turn, gain 1 gold. Then return research to 100%.

7) 1910 BC: Complete Writing, set to research CoL. Copan builds worker, cues worker. Tikal builds warrior (fortified), cues granary. Copan worker to mine. Settler founds Yaxchilan: building warrior. Irq founded unnamed city on river just to east of Yax.

8) 1870 BC: Can tell by borders Irq have another city between GR and NF. CI worker completes mine, builds road. Goody Hut gives us Mysticism. EScout reaches shore. Irq still polite.

9) 1830 BC: Spice Road complete, send 2 workers to build road to Sugar, which also begins road to Yaxchilan. Both Scouts head toward W: goal to send one SW into unexplored area , other NW into unexplored interior while Curragh explores coast.

10) 1790 BC: Last turn of my round: Road connects Sugar. I would recommend one worker continue to build road toward Yax and the other mine grassland to aid Tikal. Sending CI worker to mine gold. Granary complete in 2 more turns, CI reaches size 4 that same turn.

Images reduced to 16-color to save memory; I think enough detail remains to be clear enough for discussion.

Our Territory 1790 BC
114012

Northern Frontier and Explored Region 1790 BC
114011


Saved Game 1790 BC
114010


I'm completely amenable to harsh critiques of my gameplay.

Beamup
dojoboy
Serkhon
Blue Monkey (just played)
frunobolax (up)
Aoxomoxoa (on deck)

Got it! Playing.

Seeing how much unsettled land there is north of the Iroquois (and its poor quality notwithstanding) I think we can probably avoid an early war with them. They're likely to settle that before they start anything. Which is good - I'd rather not face Mounted Warriors prior to Knights. We just need to be careful not to tick them off.

We should still build a fair number of JTs in case I'm wrong, though. Starting soon.

(0) 1790BC
Research switched to Philosophy (in 12) from Code of Laws (in 19), in hope of getting bonus as first nation to research Philosopy, towards Republic goal. Science @ 100%. Iroquois cautious of us! Barbarains reported South of Copan!

(1) 1750BC
Warrior (west) moves west and discovers river. Curragh exploring NE of continent. 1 worker in Tikal sent N. to build road to Yax. (and gems), other Tikal worker to Palenque to mine shield-grassland tile (BTW: is this what you folks mean by BG?)
Worker mining gold in Chichen Itza.

(2) 1725BC
Copan produces worker - set to mine road north out of city; other worker in Copan set to build road to newly mined tile. Copan set to Warrior, so can send S to investiagte Barbarian reports! Chichen Itza completes Granary - Settler in 5. Science to 90% (Philosophy in 9 - same as 100% setting).

(3) 1700BC
Palenque completes Barracks - set to JT. Palenque worker set to mine BG in 4. Philosophy due in 8 but Treasury now at -1 but decide to make net loss (treasury=27). Iroq. now polite towards us.

(4) 1675BC
Road to first mine completed in Copan - this worker sent to aid completion of second Copan mine (1 turn). Warrior-Explorers still exploring, as is Curragh.

(5) 1650BC
Copan completes Warrior - set to Curragh (in 4, then consdier another worker in 3 after that). New warrior sent S to investiagte Barb activity. Second mine completed in Copan; one Copan worker heads to CI to aid gold mine completion, other goes NW to mine tile by river. Philosophy due in 6 (treasury still making -1 net loss).

(6) 1625BC
Chichen Itza produces settler - heads N to position #4 (as per Serkhon's dot map above) - CI set to JT (regular, in 6). Western warrior-explorer discovers village.

http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ianstonehouse/c3c/village.jpg

(7) 1600BC
Yax produces warrior - set to warrior again in 5. Second mine completed in Palenque (JT due in 5, growth in 1) and worker set to build road. Our western warrior-explorer enters the Teoihuacan village and they give us Bronze Working! Yax reset to Spearman in 10, CI reset to Spearman in 3.

(8) 1575BC
CI completes gold mine, two workers set to build road in 2.

(9) 1550BC
Copan completes second Curragh (renamed 'Spirit of 1550' becuase, well, I felt like it!) and headds off SW to explore around coastline. Palenque finishes second mine road and worker moved SE to mine next BG tile. Warrior (SW) discovers large Barbarian encampment on a hill (4 conscript wariiros - suggest we take it out!). Also finds 'game' tile by coast in SW. Research adjusted down to 80%, Philosophy due in 2 (same setting as at 90%). Treasury +3 (21 gold).

(10) 1525BC
CI completes Spearman (regular) and is sent NE to follow settler. CI set to settler in 3. Another mine completed in CI, worker set to build road. CI gold mine road completed - two workers sent NE and suggest build road on wheat tile and then road onto where settler is.


http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ianstonehouse/c3c/1525bc.jpg

1525BC - composite screenshot


- - - - - - -

Saved game 1525BC >>
Mac Mayaniac of the Maya, 1525 BC.SAV.zip (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114032&stc=1&d=1138542061)

Beamup (on deck)
dojoboy
Serkhon
Blue Monkey
frunobolax (just played)
Aoxomoxoa (up)


Handover notes

1. Settler has now arrived and is in place to build new city (position #4 on dot map).
2. Two workers in CI heading NE and suggest build road on wheat tile (NE of Palenque) and then road onto where settler is.
3. Road to Yax now due in 2, then suggest road to gems!
Research dropped to 60% (+10 gold next turn) as Philosophy due next turn! Fingers crossed we get the bonus (jeez - wish I had 1 more turn!)
4. Vet. JT due in 1 in Palenque.
5. SW warrior moving in on barbarian encampment.
6. CI will produce settler in 3 - where to send him? (suggestions anyone?)
7. Copan set to Granary but seriously wondering if we should start a Wonder or Palace prebuild here? - since Chichan Itza is settler factory and Palenque should be JT factory for time being. Worker N near CI can move south and mine extra tiles by Copan's river to increase production as necessary.
8. Also - on screenshot above have suggested poss. future position for 'naval access' city on isthmus chokepoint, as well as areas to far NW that could be settled to partially fence-in Iroquois.

A few notes:
- IMO we don't want Spearmen. None. I'd say JTs should be our military for pretty much this entire age. For only 10 more shields, we get a good attack factor and enslavement.

- CI should never build anything but Settlers. Never. Military units should be left to other cities with Barracks.

- The switch to Philosophy was probably unnecessary - we've pretty much beelined to it, and Writing is so expensive the AI will generally research it very late. We could likely have completed CoL, then done Philosophy to get Republic free. This turns out to be much more powerful than taking CoL with the free tech, as The Republic is by far the most expensive Ancient tech.

This is not meant to be confrontational, and they're not huge issues. In my view, a large part of the attraction of SGs is the opportunity to discuss different choices and playing styles to try and really understand them better. So, take the above points as nothing more than a starting point for discussion that will hopefully make us all better players. And I definitely hope to have my own play similarly critiqued.

P.S. I felt it necessary to include the above paragraph because I've been burned a couple times by others reading an attack into what I'd intended as friendly discussion. So I wanted to make sure I was clear here.

P.P.S. With respect to wonder/prebuild, I'd say no. There aren't any really attractive Wonders available, and the shields would be better spent on JTs/Workers/Settlers. Specifically we could build a Barracks in Copan and have it start producing more JTs. (Maybe I'm being overly paranoid, but I'd really like some defense on that side of the empire.)

P.P.P.S. Current expansion should be toward the Furs IMO. Next Settler should maybe even be sent straight there. If not, expand that way more gradually. After the Furs, a city should be founded W-NW of Copan (to get both cows) and use them to start pumping Workers. It can be easily set to produce one every 4 turns (just let it grow to 2 and use both cows), which will keep up with CI's Settler production.

Suggestions for next turns micro of CI:
- Move the citizen from the forest to the just-mined grassland immediately.
- After 1 turn there, move him to the wheat.
- Then CI will grow in 2 turns, completing the Settler at the same time and getting back on track to pump non-stop Settlers.

More suggestions may come soon as I study the save more...

A few notes:
- IMO we don't want Spearmen. None. I'd say JTs should be our military for pretty much this entire age. For only 10 more shields, we get a good attack factor and enslavement.
- CI should never build anything but Settlers. Never. Military units should be left to other cities with Barracks.

Points taken!

- The switch to Philosophy was probably unnecessary - we've pretty much beelined to it, and Writing is so expensive the AI will generally research it very late. We could likely have completed CoL, then done Philosophy to get Republic free.

There's still option to switch to CoL before you play next turn. That was going to take 19, Phil 12 turns when I started.

This is not meant to be confrontational, and they're not huge issues. In my view, a large part of the attraction of SGs is the opportunity to discuss different choices and playing styles to try and really understand them better.

No problem - that's why were all here I hope!

With respect to wonder/prebuild, I'd say no. There aren't any really attractive Wonders available, and the shields would be better spent on JTs/Workers/Settlers.

A Great Library prebuild? (Speaking as a nascent Librarian!)

P.P.P.S. Current expansion should be toward the Furs IMO. Next Settler should maybe even be sent straight there. If not, expand that way more gradually. After the Furs, a city should be founded W-NW of Copan (to get both cows) and use them to start pumping Workers.

Agree re. furs and then found W-NW 2 cows city.

A few notes:
- IMO we don't want Spearmen. None. I'd say JTs should be our military for pretty much this entire age. For only 10 more shields, we get a good attack factor and enslavement.

Agreed.

- The switch to Philosophy was probably unnecessary - we've pretty much beelined to it, and Writing is so expensive the AI will generally research it very late. We could likely have completed CoL, then done Philosophy to get Republic free. This turns out to be much more powerful than taking CoL with the free tech, as The Republic is by far the most expensive Ancient tech.

Yea, Republic will take a huge chunk of our research time, but we'll have to invest the time. Unless the Iroquois get it first and we take it through a war settlement.

P.S. I felt it necessary to include the above paragraph because I've been burned a couple times by others reading an attack into what I'd intended as friendly discussion. So I wanted to make sure I was clear here.

I would like to propose a rule for any personal conflicts with player comments. Beforehand, we should each make the effort to reply appropriately. Any thing personal should be handled through a PM.

P.P.S. With respect to wonder/prebuild, I'd say no. There aren't any really attractive Wonders available, and the shields would be better spent on JTs/Workers/Settlers.

I would prefer to opt for chancing a SGL rather than prebuilds. There really isn't a wonder we want to invest time on right now. Anything the Iroquios build, we can take through war.

P.P.P.S. Current expansion should be toward the Furs IMO. Next Settler should maybe even be sent straight there. If not, expand that way more gradually. After the Furs, a city should be founded W-NW of Copan (to get both cows) and use them to start pumping Workers. It can be easily set to produce one every 4 turns (just let it grow to 2 and use both cows), which will keep up with CI's Settler production.


There is a settler in the general area, let's use him for the furs.

There's still option to switch to CoL before you play next turn. That was going to take 19, Phil 12 turns when I started.
Unfortunately we lose all the invested research if we do. At this point we're best off finishing Phil and taking CoL.

Unfortunately we lose all the invested research if we do. At this point we're best off finishing Phil and taking CoL.

Of course (doh!) That tech switch was a real mistake - sorry guys!

I would use settler we have to found city by furs which blocks further Iroq expansion south of the desert; then use next built where that one is now, reinforcing our frontier; Tikal can then build a curragh to transport settler after that around Iroq to NW, I would shoot for Tobacco.

Tikal can then build a curragh to transport settler after that around Iroq to NW, I would shoot for Tobacco.

Curraghs cannot transport units. We need Map Making inorder to build galleys.

I'd be disinclined to try and settle north of the Iroquois. That would significantly increase the odds of their declaring war and make it much harder for us to fight such a war. Fill in the space between us and them, and then expand south, would be my approach.

And yes, let's use the current settler to grab the furs.

As I see things getting a city over to the furs is a good idea, and we need to fill in with a couple (3 probably) because we are getting a little 'far flung'.

I believe we need to be prepared for hostilities even more than you do Beamup, and I'm not a warmonger. Iroqouis may be one of the less agressive civs, but this map makes it majorly plain that southern/eastern expansion for them will be much easier than northern/western. With luck they will build that wonder, and that will make it as much ours.

Part of building our military will be more productive cities and that means ones close to CI.

I am little less concerned about the area on the sw peninsula only because we don't seem to have any company there. The barb emcampment there, and no sign of curraghs anywhere else yet says that's our land. The closer area there is quite fertile really.

I'd like to see us moving to being closer to the military limits for our civ, by any definition, the Iro are close to us and both of us seem to be far away from anything else at this point, so 'beating down' the Iro's, whether peacefully or in war should be a mid range goal.

Your land is my land, my land is my land
From the gem rich mountains
To the fur bearing coastlands
the Wheat filled bonus grasslands
to the irrigated plainland
All that land was made just for me

#1 with a bullet on Chichen Itza's all hit radio!

Aoxo

I do note that we should be able to trade for TW and IW as soon as Philosophy finishes - we'll have Writing, Phil, and CoL to trade. This will let us know whether or not they have horses and/or iron.

Which might well be very beneficial. For example, if they didn't have either, but we had Horses, then we'd have JTs and Horsemen to their Archers and Spearmen. While I'm also mostly a builder, if that happened I'd definitely have to say carpe diem and open up a can of :hammer:

One thing before i switch this turn over, Copan is building a granary at this point. Seems like we need a city like this making some of our JT's.

Agree/Disagree?

Aoxo

If so, it needs a barrack first.

Also, should I trade writing yet?

Aoxo

p.s. Succession games are much different than solo games! (and fun)

Curraghs cannot transport units. We need Map Making inorder to build galleys.

OOPS! Still learning the new units.:scan:

RE: peaceful means of conquest. In my solo games I often emphasize early build of culture generators such as temples, because they work better the longer they exist, and help a lot in rolling back the frontier. How will culture fit into our strategy?

Also, should I trade writing yet?

Aoxo

p.s. Succession games are much different than solo games! (and fun)

I recommend maybe trading Philospohy or CoL to the Iroquois for Iron Working, to at least learn if they have iron. Be sure to select CoL as our free tech once Philosopy is learned.

How will culture fit into our strategy?

It'll come in as needed I would say. A temple here or there to help with happiness or to expand borders for resources.

Turn 1 - 1500BC

As per Beam's advice MM'd CI to the mined grassland before the turn was over, then moved over to the wheat. Settler in three. South curraugh discovers a goodie hut, warrior moves to open it next turn. Changed Yax from a Spearman to a JT.

We've learned Philosophy, then got awarded CoL. Now it's set to Republic, adjusted science to slider 80% and happiness to 10. Still +2 on revenue and republic is at 46 turns.

Settler heading to river spot just south of the southern fur, worker pair will follow with road. Sent JT from Pal there too and the Spearman is heading there.

Traded Writing to the Iro's for The Wheel and 45 gold. They know iron working at this point.

Turn 2 - 1475

Saxon's gave us map of their region. Stinky Saxon's : P. Good news, learning wheel shows us with a horse near Copan, and another SE of furs city, even better, Iro's look a long ways away from any.

Copan worker will mine a river grassland for third citizen. Iro's will trade CoL for IW, but I held off. They aren't interested in just gold for it.

Not much else at this point.

Turn 3 - 1450

CI creates settler and he heads west. NE settler moves to position to build and what does he see? Iro settler in the square to the immediate SW (which is in square to the N of the horses). If his settler plops here, and I'm sure he will, I will go north one and plop on the fur square on the other river. Anyone else see the storm on the horizon i do? I think we should keep a healthy force near this town.

Turn 4 - 1425

OMG his settler moved west a square, so I plopped and he's gotta move farther. City of Bonampak founded. JT on the way.

North curraugh sees an Aztec and makes contact. Trade alphabet for all 60 of his gold and then trades writing for his IW (which Hiawatha would not do).

Switched Copan to a barracks.

South warrior engages a barb, doesn;t get vet :P. Two more coming looks like.

Turn 5 - 1400

Pretty quiet, the Iro settler turned to the North and a warrior following came into our land, contacted Hiawatha and requested he observe the sovereignty of our borders.

We still know what they both know and they are broke so no trades.

Turn 6 - 1375

Settler founds Lagotero and so begins our worker factory. First build is a warrior as growth in 7. Iro settler and warrior turn south again.

We still know what they both know and they are broke so no trades.

Turn 7 - 1350

CI produces settler. Sent him to the '4' dot map site. This should tie in Bonampak.

We still know what they both know and they are broke so no trades.

Turn 8 - 1325

Things quiet. Mining a BG up at Tikal. Gems online.

We still know what they both know and they are broke so no trades.

Turn 9 - 1300

Settler in spot, will plop next turn. Worker in Yaxchilan moved to irrigate a plain. Worker to connect road to Lagotero.

We still know what they both know and they are broke so no trades.

Turn 10 - 1275

Quiriqua founded. Tied in nicely to our empire. Settler will pop next turn from CI.
Warrior took out barb encampment, 25g woot! Fort'd to get health back. NW warrior finds a choke to an area off the continent .. wonders if we might close this land off.



Lots of wide open spaces NW of the mountains. Something to think about.

I think this was a VERY productive century for us. Founded 3 cities, brought another luxury online, with another right around the corner. Kept Iro off of the real estate they wanted. Learned Code of Laws, Pholosophy, The Wheel & Iron Working and made our neighbors poor while increasing our treasury by 140+ gold and increased our science by 20%.

Next 10 thoughts.

We have another healthy productive city spot north of Lagobert. lots of BG's.
A temple in Bonampal. Get that other fur, horses and put pressure on the new Iro city behind enemy lines.
Get the military built up more. Cities rounding into shape, I think we are in excellent shape.

All hail Mac Mayamaniacs!

Your humble Aoxo

What about a move for the Iron/Wheat NE of Bonampak?
Think we should consider a city NW of Yax to begin claiming that peninsula. We can fill out S later of Copan, but leave warrior to keep an eye on barb activity.

What about a move for the Iron/Wheat NE of Bonampak?
Think we should consider a city NW of Yax to begin claiming that peninsula. We can fill out S later of Copan, but leave warrior to keep an eye on barb activity.

I agree, that iron is essential.

Beamup (up)
dojoboy (on deck)
Serkhon
Blue Monkey
frunobolax
Aoxomoxoa (just played)

Got it. Will probably play tomorrow.

Next city will be NE of Bonampak to claim the iron, followed by the BG area N of Lagartero. A few more Settlers to fill in to the south. I also plan to found an embassy with the Iroquois, especially to get a look at the rest of their territory we haven't seen yet.

Longer-term, we have Horses and Iron (plus our UU), and not much more room to expand. The Iroquois have neither Horses nor Iron, so they can't use their UU. That is a perfect :hammer: opportunity if ever I saw one. Once we've got Republic, our next pick should be Horseback Riding. Then when we're in Republic, and have JTs and Horsemen, we should crush the Iroquois. Or maybe earlier - should be discussed by the whole team.

So, my priorities:
- Get that Iron!!!
- Expand some more, continue researching Republic.
- Build more JTs to put the hurt on Hiawatha.

Good play by everyone so far, we seem to be in an excellent position.

The Iroquois have neither Horses nor Iron, so they can't use their UU. That is a perfect :hammer: opportunity if ever I saw one. Once we've got Republic, our next pick should be Horseback Riding. Then when we're in Republic, and have JTs and Horsemen, we should crush the Iroquois. Or maybe earlier - should be discussed by the whole team.

Making an embassy with Iroq will give us a better idea whether to go sooner or later with :hammer:

Then when we're in Republic, and have JTs and Horsemen, we should crush the Iroquois. Or maybe earlier - should be discussed by the whole team.

So, my priorities:
- Get that Iron!!!
- Expand some more, continue researching Republic.
- Build more JTs to put the hurt on Hiawatha.


Would it be wiser to war in despotism to prevent WW from raising its ugly head too soon? I'm thinking the war w/ the Iroquois should be for complete assimilation rather than piece-meal settlements. Then a switch to Republic before encountering the Aztecs. ???

I was thinking two things:
- We'd rather not have our GA while in Despotism.
- A war to the death with the Iroquois would still be reasonably short if we prepared properly. They don't have that many cities.

This is better than the movies. Continued good luck, Mayanians! I'm learning a lot, and appreciate the excellent turn logs and screen shots.

- We'd rather not have our GA while in Despotism.


Good point. I over looked that.

In about 35 turns we will have the ability be seriously cranking JT's. They will do 2 things. They will easily overwhelm Iro's. They will also produce for us a big amount of laborers.

I played a solo game in a pangea map in to geta lil experience with the mayans a couple weeks ago and got into a couple conflicts which yielded many laborers. Getting extra settlers going in a few cities to fill in empty areas and destroyed cities will give us a big jump in production because enlarged so much.

Look at this map. We are sort of seeing a relative outline of this landmass, and it would be hard to believe that there is more than the Iro's, Aztecs and us in this area. That means most if not all is somewhere else playing this same game with each other. We are industrious. This means lot and lots of cities and massive expansion. Aztecs will probably be well into swordsmen by the time run seriously up against them. Having an empire generating midieval infantry and knights will make them crumble too.

We also need to get something to the other continent which is obviously to the east. Conquering the seas is in our future.

Aoxo

I was thinking two things:
- We'd rather not have our GA while in Despotism.
- A war to the death with the Iroquois would still be reasonably short if we prepared properly. They don't have that many cities.

Agree re GA issue - war with Iroq. would be relatively short, so WW is unlikely to be a critical issue when we are in Republic.

How many JTs and Horsemen are we looking at having before we start :hammer: ?

We should keep an eye on our citizens happiness levels before/as we kick into Republic. I got hit badly with this in a game I'm playing at moment (as Dutch), with cities size 5 and over (I only have spices and ivory as luxuries in my game so far). Also, I switched from Despot to Republic immediately after I had a 'Citizens offer to extend your Palace' event, and it took only 2 turns.

1275 BC (0): We've got a good-sized treasury and a tech lead, so I set science back to 100% and run a deficit of -3 for the time being. There are Inuits near Bonampak, also, I observe - so I send the JT out from there to check it out ahead of deploying a Settler to that area. We are weak compared to Aztecs, strong compared to Iroquois! I still plan on building up the army, though.

I don't care for producing more military in cities without Barracks, so...
Bonampak set to Barracks from JT.
Quirigua set to Barracks from Warrior.
Yax left on JT to get one up there on the border, even if it is Regular.

Found an Embassy with the Iroquois. Promptly get an OH **** moment. They have Horses after all - one tile N of Salamanca! They just haven't hooked them up yet. It is currently garrisoned by 2 Spearmen, and will complete the Pyramids in 27 turns.

Well, this changes everything again. Mounted Warriors will give them a major advantage. If we can hit them before they get HR, though... Definitely not ready for anything yet, so we'll have to see how things develop.

Hit End Turn.

1250 BC (1): Lagartero Warrior->Worker. This site isn't on the river, so we need to irrigate one cow to make it a good Worker factory.
Worker by Tikal starts bringing irrigation up that way via the Wheat.

1225 BC (2): CI Settler->Settler. This one will head up to claim the Iron.
Palenque JT->JT.
Tikal Granary->Barracks.
Yax JT->Barracks. JT moved N to the Gems as an advanced lookout.
Palanque JTs deployed towards Yax, which is well situated to be our jumpoff point.
North Curragh violates Aztec borders to continue its exploration. It'll be out next turn.

1200 BC (3): Monty complains. We apologize.

1175 BC (4): JT finds the Inuit camp. It's defended by a single Warrior.

1150 BC (5): The JT up by the Inuit camp is attacked by two barbarian Horsemen!!! But it couldn't turn out much better, as we defeat both, promote to Elite, and enslave both of them for the loss of a single health bar! :woohoo: :beer:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/MMSlaves.jpg
Notice there are 3 units there... those are our new slaves.

Copan JT->JT. Deployed over Lago way as barbarian defense.
Our new slaves start building a road back from the Iron.
We disperse the Inuit, but don't get another slave.

1125 BC (6): CI Settler->Settler. Sent up N of Lagartero to the clump of BG.
Lagartero Worker->Worker

1100 BC (7): Palenque JT->JT.
Furs are hooked up.

1075 BC (8): Scouting Warrior pops a hut, gets 50 gold.

1050 BC (9): Oh no. Iroquois found Oil Springs by the Iron just 3 turns before we get there. Settler sent to the mouth of the river instead. It won't get the Wheat immediately there, but there are floodplains and this is a coastal location so I think it's a stronger long-term play.

Calakmul founded on the BGs. We can fit one more in between there and Tikal. Started on Barracks to make good use of its shields (BGs and a Game tile). Inuit tribes are reported near there, JT dispatched to check it out - they must be near the spices.

1025 BC (10): CI Settler->Settler. I suggest this one be sent to the forest between Calakmul and Tikal, but I leave it unmoved for dojoboy to choose.

Didn't Get Iron founded. Nothing much to build around here, so I start on a Temple to get the Wheat and the second Furs in range.

The Iroquois and Aztecs have Map Making. We can get it from either for either Phil or CoL, but trading with the Iroquois also gets us their 7 gold treasury. I advise this but again leave the decision to dojoboy.

An eventful set of turns here. A bit of a problem at first with the surprise Horses. Continued great, with an Elite JT and a pair of slaves. Went downhill when we lost the Iron.

A couple decisions left for dojoboy. Longer-term, the Iroquois can have Horses as soon as they bother to hook them up (still haven't done that). They could hook up iron, too, but Oil Springs is far enough from their main cities, and through rough enough terrain, that it'll likely take a while.

Which means the major question currently facing us is this: "Should we go to war with the Iroquois, and if so, when?" Given that they have Horses available, but don't yet have HR, I would tend to strike soon. We've got several JTs up on the border already, and will have more shortly. Even a brief spoiler attack, picking up Salamanca, Oil Springs, and their annoying behind-the-lines city, would be highly profitable and put us in position to wipe them out at a time of our choosing.

Roster:
Beamup (just played)
dojoboy (up!)
Serkhon (on deck)
Blue Monkey
frunobolax
Aoxomoxoa

For some reason, here at school, the images are not showing up. Would it be possible to settle right next to the iron and build a temple to border-push for the iron?

I'll grab the save this evening and play. It's going to be difficult to mobilize in ten turns and declare war. So, in regards to the Iroquois Question, I'll work to station stacks of JT by the target cities. Serkhon may then have the pleasure of attacking.

I'll follow the general consensus on expansion and trade.

Would it be possible to settle right next to the iron and build a temple to border-push for the iron?
No, it's too close.

Given that they have Horses available, but don't yet have HR, I would tend to strike soon. Even a brief spoiler attack, picking up Salamanca, Oil Springs would be highly profitable ...

Agree. Their unhooked horses changes everything - strike as soon as is practicable - i.e. when we have what we feel we have enough JTs and horsemen.

Getting Elite JTs (and slaves) from barb encounters is a good tactic!

No, it's too close.

Right, I sometimes do it anyway if the resource is important enough. Only after a temple is buit would it push the Iroquois' border back to there they have a misshapen border, losing the iron. It'll piss the iroquois off of course. Just a thought. If we're warring soon, it's a mute point.

I think the war should be started in earnest. Looking at the map, I think our attack should be from the city in the floodplain, and then hard to Salamanca. Nothing else they have is developed enough yet to produce well at all.

With our settler factory, we should plan to move in behind the destroyed cities and rebuild. The only way to avoid much GA time in wa is to prosecute the war fast and that will mean a sizeable force.

Aoxo

This war is still 30-40 turns or more away, but we need to be planning for it now. We kept pumping settlers from CI, we keep pumping workers from Lago and we keep the expansion, but we should be preparing for this war right now.

Also would like to see a couple JT's out killing the barbs. Free labor a waiting.

Aoxo

Got it, the save that is.

Pre-turn: Move settler to location recommended by Beamup. Traded Philosophy to Iroquois for Map Making & 7 gold, again per Beamup's recommendation.

1000 BC (1) -> Copan b. JT, set to JT; Bonampak b. barracks, set to JT; Largartero b. worker, set to worker;

975 BC (2) -> Palenque b. JT, set to JT; Tikal b. barracks, set to JT; moved sliders to 0 - 9 - 1 to off set potential disorders next turn in CI & Copan (gpt stays steady at -6);

950 BC (3) ->

925 BC (4) -> CI b. settler, set to settler; Quirigua b. barracks, set to JT; Kaminaljuyu settled along western coastline between Calakmul & Tikal, set to warrior; moving settler to mouth of river southeast of Bonampak (will envelope horse resource;

900 BC (5) -> Lagartero b. worker, set to worker;

875 BC (6) -> Begin building road to Oil Springs (Iroq.) to expediate war maneuvers and resettlement; Iroquois now have Horseback Riding;

850 BC (7) -> Copan b. JT, set to JT; Palenque b. JT, set to JT; Warrior redlined while attacking barb camp to the northwest; Trade CoL for Horseback Riding w/ Iroquois;

825 BC (8) -> CI b. settler, set to settler;

800 BC (9) -> Researched Republic, set to Mathematics; Tikal b. JT, set to JT; Mayans revolt (6 turns); IBT -> Portugal b. Oracle; a few towns go into disorder, should settle at the start of next turn;

775 BC (10) -> A few towns go into disorder, should settle at the start of next turn; Piedras Neras settled midway between CI & Kaminaljuyu; JT destroys barb camp (25 gold) to our south;

Handover Notes: There are 2-3 JTs stacked near Grand River & Oil Springs - should be our first 2 targets for iron & gems respectively. There are a couple JTs in Yaxchilan that can be used for Grand Rver, taking that total to 4. I usually never go on the offensive in the AA without 5 units minimum for each target city. Due to the revolt for Republic, we will not produce any for 4-5 more turns, sorry Serkhon. We have a settler ready to build at the mouth of the river to Bonampak's southeast on the next turn. This will give us two horse resources. It does not look like the Iroquois have yet hooked up their horse resource, but that could be viewed from an outdated view. We should probably send a JT or a worker up there to update our view. Sliders set at 0 - 9 - 1 and breaking even (anarchy). Neither the Aztecans or Iroquois have anything to trade/sell. Image is of our initial targets. The center town should be approached for the north inorder to avoid the penalty for attacking across rivers. recommend giving Republic to Iroquois before attack, then checking F3 to be sure they're in anarchy before attacking. But, we want to make sure they cannot bring the Aztecs in against us by giving them Republic. Do we give it to both simultaneously?

So the general idea I'm getting right now is to wait out the Anarchy, trade Republic, then attack with our JTs and then hope that we can pump out enough JTs during our golden age to overrun the Iroquois?

So the general idea I'm getting right now is to wait out the Anarchy, trade Republic, then attack with our JTs and then hope that we can pump out enough JTs during our golden age to overrun the Iroquois?

I would build up about another 6 - 8 JTs first, then trade Republic. This may not reach fruition in your turns. ???

Turn 1 750BC
Uaxactun Founded

Turn 2 730BC
Take a Risk with a Curragh to cross a large amount of sea

Turn 3 710BC
ZZZ

Turn 4 690BC
ZZZ

Turn 5 670BC
Warrior Exploring in the West gets attacked by 7 barbarian warriors manages to take down 6 before dying
Chichen Itza riots
We are now a Republic :)
Iroquois are now building Mausoleum of Mausollos
Iroquois finish The Pyrmaids in Salamanca
Celts finish Statue of Zeus in Entremont
Curragh makes it
Science down to 50% Luxury down to 0% Mathmatics in 5


Turn 6 650BC
Yax Barracks -> Javelin Thrower
Larartero Worker -> Worker
Aztec are building Mausoleum of Mausollos
... Aztecs Finish Mausoleum of Mausollos
Iroquois are building The Great Library

Turn 7 630BC
Palenque Javelin Thrower -> Javelin Thrower
Bonampak Javelin Thrower ->Javelin Thrower
Quirigua Javelin Thrower->Javelin Thrower
Kaminaljuyu Warrior -> Barracks

Turn 8 610 BC
ZZZ

Turn 9 590 BC
Chichen Itza Settler ->Settler
Largartero Worker -> Worker
Calakmul Barracks -> Javelin Thrower
Aztecs are building Temple of Artemis

Turn 10 570 BC
We Complete Mathmatics
Literature in 6
Copan Javelin Thrower-> Javelin Thrower
Tikal Javelin Thrower -> Javelin Thrower
Bad News...

114343

Handover Notes: Everything seems almost ready to go but we have to do it very very soon as you can see from the screen shot. Dojoboy's strategy seems the way to go at this moment.

Roster:
Beamup
dojoboy
Serkhon (just played)
Blue Monkey (up!)
frunobolax (on deck)
Aoxomoxoa

114344

Here's what I see. He's gonna have a few horseman, but not 10's of.

I say get that Iron. Take Oil Springs with a squad of JT's. I'd say have a settler there ready to go. Bam we're in a golden age. Shift all the military production to swordsman.

They will make much better attack on Salamanca. The fortified spearman in a big city are tough cookies. They tend make elite too.

Be patient. Attack too soon, and we might take one city and that's it for the golden age.

I'd like to see us take Oil Springs, Salamanca and the flood plain city.

Trying to wipe them out will take a while.

We want to make sure they cannot bring the Aztecs in against us by giving them Republic. Do we give it to both simultaneously?

Sounds like a good plan

I say get that Iron. Take Oil Springs with a squad of JT's. I'd say have a settler there ready to go. Bam we're in a golden age. Shift all the military production to swordsman.

They will make much better attack on Salamanca. The fortified spearman in a big city are tough cookies. They tend make elite too.


One thing, during war our workers will be vulnerable so we'll need a unit or two fortified on them while they work - possibly. By the time we get to Salamanca, the Iroquois will have maybe 1-2 towns to produce units with. All injured Mounted Horsemen must be killed ASAP.

I would suggest backing up our JTs with Horsemen rather than Swords. They can act as lesser artillery, knocking off a few health bars and hopefully retreating. This will gain us more than Swords will relative to our JTs.

We should also establish an embassy with the Aztecs so that we can try and get a Military Alliance out of our trade. Might help divide Hiawatha's attention.

Looking at the save:
- We have 5 JTs in position to hit Oil Springs. That attack could be delayed 1 turn to let them strike from a mountain. It's a hill, but they probably don't have much there. Adequate.
- Counting the Yax garrison (which we should certainly use) there are 6 JTs in position at Grand River, which is NOT a hill. We can take that easily.
- We have 1 JT in Bonampak and two more near CI. These will likely suffice for Cattaragus, especially with new production.

IMO that's enough to kick off. Especially considering that Salamanca is building the Great Library, and therefore is NOT building Mounted Warriors! So, I say we hit them now with the following plan:
- Trade with Hiawatha - we can get Lit and their gold easily.
- Once Hiawatha is in Anarchy, declare war.
- Establish an embassy and trade with Montezuma to get Polytheism, their gold, and an alliance.
- Hit Grand River with the 6 JTs from Yax.
- Hit Oil Springs with the 5 JTs from Didn't Get Iron.
- Hit Cattaraugus with the other JTs in our territory and new production.
- In the next phase of the war, build Horsemen to support an assault on Salamanca. The troops from Cattaraugus and new production proceed to Salamanca via Allegheny, those from Oil Springs proceed to Salamanca via Niagara Falls, and those from Grand River split. Some head straight to Salamanca with their first priority being to pillage the horses, then harass until enough reinforcements arrive to take the city. (Fortunately there isn't a Barracks there.) The others head for Tonawanda to clean up there.

P.S. A note for future reference - we could tell when the Iroquois hooked up their Horses from the trade screen. As soon as we could no longer sell them ours, theirs were in production. Cheaper than investigations.

P.P.S. I don't think we need to worry much about defending our Workers. We're going to be well on the offensive, and any undefended workers will simply attract isolated attackers we can eliminate easily, further weakening Hiawatha. Those units would be better spent maintaining our momentum.

P.P.P.S. I'd keep most/all of their cities. Maybe raze Grand River. The others are pretty reasonably situated, so why spend extra Settlers that could be expanding towards the Aztecs?

And a final note - with these trades, we'll lack only Construction and Currency from the Ancient! Currency will likely be of more use to us. Well, OK, we'll also lack Monarchy. But that's not worth researching.

- We have 5 JTs in position to hit Oil Springs. That attack could be delayed 1 turn to let them strike from a mountain. It's a hill, but they probably don't have much there. Adequate.

I would caution against moving them all. If Hiawatha has a MW in Oil Springs, then we could risk losing our town as well on one attack. I've not looked at the save, but I'm assuming we have only one defender there still.

I would caution against moving them all. If Hiawatha has a MW in Oil Springs, then we could risk losing our town as well on one attack. I've not looked at the save, but I'm assuming we have only one defender there still.
There's a Warrior there also. And if the JTs go straight in instead of circling to the Mountain, they'll block the road and any possible counterattack (maybe a good reason to take that route).

Plus, I'd give very long odds against Hiawatha having any MWs yet. His Horses have been hooked up less than 10 turns, and his capital is building a wonder. Oil Springs itself certainly couldn't have built one, as it doesn't seem to be connected to the capital. The only real possibility for any MWs in action yet is from Niagara Falls, and that's dubious.

A few more thoughts:
Remember to use our Elites carefully, only in easy battles. We want to get an MGL if we can. If we do, also remember that armies are much better in C3C and MGLs can't rush Wonders anymore, so we definitely want to build an army and win at least one fight with it if possible, for the Heroic Epic and Military Academy. We can also put JTs in the Army freely, since they retain their enslavement ability if the army is pure JTs.

Do we want the Great Library? If so, we should dedicate a town to it for during the GA.

Aoxo

Do we want the Great Library? If so, we should dedicate a town to it for during the GA.


I vote no. It tends to make the player lazy, by turning down research to collect gpt. The gold is good for rush building and upgrades, but it tends to slow tech advancement IMHO.

I think not. We currently have a tech lead, and in shortish order there will only be one other civ on the continent. So, our window to use the Great Library would only be between the time we reach the other continent and Education. And the former might well occur after the latter, in which case we couldn't use it at all.

Anyway, Salamanca's building it. And the AI tends to be very reluctant to stop building a wonder, even when under attack. So we might well get it anyway.

A few more comments...
Too many entertainers! We have 3. The two in Palanque and Quirigua certainly should not be entertainers since they are not needed. Taxmen or Scientists would still keep the cities from rioting. 10% entertainment costs 12 commerce and allows us to return those 3 citizens to work, producing 4 food, 6 hammers, and 2 commerce - a major profit. We can build some temples after the war, but for now we need them working.

Researching Lit isn't our best bet, as we can (and should) trade for it right now. We can also trade for Poly, so we should research Currency instead.

After the war, shouldn't we build Libraries instead of Temples? (conquered towns might need both).

Then when we get currency marketplaces will be on tap too.

Aoxo

After the war, shouldn't we build Libraries instead of Temples? (conquered towns might need both).

Then when we get currency marketplaces will be on tap too.


As long as the Iroquois are extinct, we need not worry about it. We do want both but for different reasons: temples for happiness and libraries for reseach and precursor to universities.

We should actually start building Libraries and Temples during the war. As a Republic, each unit beyond our support limit costs 2 gold. So we don't want to keep building units indefinitely - we want enough to wipe out the Iroquois, but not all that many more.

We're absolutely going to be on a major infrastructure binge after the war. We'll want Libraries and Marketplaces in all our cities, and Temples in the big ones. Aqueducts in many cases too. Then we'll have all our territory (including the new land) to improve and that huge expanse between the Iroquois and Aztecs to settle. Once we have the troops to win the war, I don't see us building many more for quite some time to come.

Are we waiting on Blue Monkey?

Are we waiting on Blue Monkey?
Yes, we are.

Everyone -
if we get to Feb 1 6.16AM (local time here - GMT) am I right in thinking that I should take the next turn - that being 24hrs elasped since the last turn posted (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3645608&postcount=98) by Serkhon (as there's no sign of Blue Monkey - Last Activity: Jan 30, 2006 07:54 PM ).

However, I might not get to play it till I'm back from work at 7pm GMT today (Feb 1st), unless I get up extra early and play before I go to work - but i sure don't want to rush these possibly crucial 10 turns!

Everyone -
if we get to Feb 1 6.16AM (local time here - GMT) am I right in thinking that I should take the next turn - that being 24hrs elasped since the last turn posted (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3645608&postcount=98) by Serkhon (as there's no sign of Blue Monkey - Last Activity: Jan 30, 2006 07:54 PM ).

However, I might not get to play it till I'm back from work at 7pm GMT today (Feb 1st), unless I get up extra early and play before I go to work - but i sure don't want to rush these possibly crucial 10 turns!

Give it until you get back from work.

Give it until you get back from work.

Okay...just itchin' to get at the Iroq!

Okay - time out - have grabbed the save and will take this next turn.

I'm reviewing the save game, and the plan of campaign suggestions above, before making any moves, but will aim to kick off in about 1-2 turns of playing his turn.

Will play when I get home from work (in about 10 hrs from now)

Sorry I fellout, Got slammed bad by food poisoning for about 48 hours. Still woozy, but I'm coherent now. Looking forward to my next turn in rotation.

Do you feel up to playing after frunobulax gets done?

Do you feel up to playing after frunobulax gets done?

Thank you, but no. Spending so much time kneeling, praying, and fasting blew my mind so completely I'll need a couple days to recover, and as fast as you guys are playing my next turn will probably come before the weekend any way.

I'll need a couple days to recover, and as fast as you guys are playing my next turn will probably come before the weekend any way.

Hope you feel fully restored soon Blue Monkey!

Am now playing - will post full details shortly... things are now kicking off with the Iroq. (was just passing through to consult the tactical suggstions one more time!)

Turn 0 - 570BC

Unit roster:
1 settler
10 workers
10 warriors
1 spearman
16 javelin throwers
2 curraghs

After reading all the tactical suggestions I decide it's time to make a move on the Iroqs - trade Republic to Iroq now (turn 0), move in forces (turn 1), war in turn 2. The Aztecs are cautious towards us and I'd rather trade techs, keep 'em relatively sweet, and maybe go on to forge an alliance of convenience, rather than have them make any unexpected demands and possibly declare war before we are where we want to be with the Iroq.

So, offer Iroquois Republic. They respond offering Lit. and 20 gold, we ask for Lit. and 25 gold, they agree.

Contact Aztecs and trade CoL + Math + 1 gold for Poly (they originally asked for CoL + Math + 70 gold for Poly, which was outrageous, and was glad I bargained hard to get down to 1 gold). They remain cautious towards us however, despite graciously accepting Mayaniac's hard bargaining.

Iroquois go into Anarchy. We switch research to Currency (in 10).
245 gold + 0 gpt, research @50%


Turn 1 - 550BC

Piedra Negras completes W., switch to barracks in 8.

Currency now in 8 @ -1 gp, research @50%

Elite JT in DGIron moved out to eastern border of Allegheny + joined by 2 JTs (from N of DGIron)
3 JTs N of DGIron to S outskirts of Oil Springs on road
Spearman sent from Bonampak to garrison DGIron (arrive in 2)
4 JTs from Yax move N to mountain S of Grand River, with 2 JTs (incl. 1 reg JT) following behind on gem/mountain tile
2 more JTs en route N/NE currently between Ci and Palenque
Settler moved into Quirigan
2 curraghs continue exploring out west, as does W
2 workers E of Tikal moved to mine BG E of Palenque

Iroq. W sighted NW of Catter. (in forest)

CI grows to size 6 (settler in 1)
CI - now has 3 unhap vs 2 hap citizens, so one becomes a tax collector & balance restored (2 hap/2 unhap/1 cont/1 tax)
Now breaking even
Palenque entertainer -> tax collector
Quirigan entertainer -> tax collector
Copan entertainer no change otherwise revolt next turn
Now + 4 gpt, Currency in 8, research @50%

Palenque's JT in 1 switched to Horsemen in 1 as decide we need fast unit to pillage Iroq. horses


Turn 2 - 530BC

CI makes settler, another due in 4
Palenque makes Horseman, JT due in 5
Lagartero makes worker, another due in 4
Quirigua makes JT, another due in 5

Annoyed Iroq demand we withdraw our forces from Grand River - we refuse - it's war!
249 gpt, so research lowered to 40%, now +5 gpt, Currency in 10

The Iroquian War 530bc -

Oil Springs:
1 JT fortified on road just S, 2 other JTs move NW + NE onto mountains, ready to strike
http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ianstonehouse/c3c/oil_springs1.jpg

Allegheny:
3 JTs (inc Elite JT) cross border due E of Allegheny behind river, aim to move NW next turn and attack from N avoiding an attack across a river

Grand River offensive:
2 JTs attack and are defeated, but reduce Iroq Spear to 1 red bar, third JT is victorious and captures Grand River (we decide not to raze city).
WE ENTER GOLDEN AGE. Capture 1 worker from GRiver, moved due S to assist mining by Yax. Fourth JT passes through GRiver and takes up
defensive position on road/mine tile due S of Salamanca.
http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ianstonehouse/c3c/grand_river_captured.jpg

2 JT reinf. move up to position S of GRiver.
Palenque's new Horseman moves N towards Yax tasked to pillage Iroq. horse resource
Quirigua's new JT moves 1 SE into forest/road across water - settler in Qui. moves to join him, rather than risk moving alone near Iroq W

2 JTs (en route between CI and Pal) - one moves to mined road due W of hill with Iroq W on, other JT crosses river on towards Palenque and is joined by new CI settler

2 workers start mining BG east of Palenque - Irog W has moved onto empty hill betwixt Palenque and Quirigua
2 workers complete mine N of Calak and start road - which is completed immediately
Spearman arrives and is garrisoned in DGIron.
2 curraghs exploring - one spots village on island off coast out west.
New Lagartero worker moved E to assist mining worker
2 workers sent to irrig plains SW of DGIron

+42 gpt due to GA therefore research up to 60%, now 249 gold +7gpt, Currency in 5


Turn 3 - 510BC

People request Forbidden Palace!
It is reported that the English have completed a GW - The Colossus!

Bonam makes JT (moves S towards Cattar), JT due again in 4
Uax makes W, Harbour in 12 (only 1 food extra currently - slow growth)

2 JTs near Quirigua attack Iroq W - one JT defeated, other victorious - we gain worker, moved NE to irrig plains S of Quirigua

Settler by Quirigua moves W towards Yax

JTs by Allegheny spot Iroq Spear+Settler but continue to move NW - so now in position N of Allegheny ready to attack
http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ianstonehouse/c3c/510BC_allegh.jpg

JT fortified on road/mine S of Salam, JT in GRiver moved NE to join him
2 JTs (1 reg) now fortified in GRiver

Mine NE Yax completed, 2 workers start road
JT+Settler move on N of Palenque
Mine completed E of Copan - workers start road (in 2)
Mine completed E of Lag - workers start road (in 2)
Road on mine completed N of Calak - 2 workers SW to mine BG
Spearman fortified now in DGIron
2 workers start irrig. plains SW of DGIron (in 2)
Barb Worker starts irrig. Horse tile W of Uax (in 8)
'Spirit of 1550' Curragh fortified as Lupaca Conscript Galley spotted off coast 1 tile away

Oil Springs offensive:
1 JT attacks from SE mtn position and defeats lone Iroq Spearman (but down to 1 red). Oil Springs is now ours!
No worker enslaved, but city not in resistance, so set to W in 5
Other 2 JTs move on past Oil Springs towards Niagara
http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ianstonehouse/c3c/oil_springs_capture.jpg

256 gold +9gpt, Curr in 4


Turn 4 - 490BC

'1550' Curragh defeats conscript galley - continues explorations, as does other Curr and W

Iroq Spear+Sett flee off N towards Salam

Copan = JT, switch to Horse (in 3)
Tikal = JT, JT in 3
Yax = JT, JT in 5
Calak = JT, switch to Horse in 3
Lag = worker, next in 2

Unit roster:
19 JT / 1 Horse / 1 Spear / 12 War / 12 Wkr / 2 Sett / 2 Curr

Allegheny offensive:
2 vet JTs attack Allegheny from N of city and each defeat an Iroq Spear - Allegheny is captured!
We gain 4 Iroq workers - all sent SE to build road ASAP, as city has 2 resistors and food shortage (city=size4)
Elite JT moves away N of Alleg in pursuit of fleeing Iroq Spear+Settler
2 JTs + Horse now in position SW of Salamanca
3 JTs/2 Sett currently en route N to Yax
http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ianstonehouse/c3c/490BC.jpg

New Yax JT N to GRiver
New Calak JT E towards Piedras Neg
JT moves into position N of Catter
2 JTs N towards Niagara

Palenque mine completed - 2 workers build road in 1 turn
Copan new JT N towards CI/Pal
Lag mine completed - 2 workers build road in 1 turn
New Lag worker N towards CI
2 Calak workers start mining BG (in 2)

265 gold +1gpt, Currency in 3


Turn 5 - 470BC

CI = Sett, Sett in 4
Pal = JT, JT in 2
Quir = JT, Horse in 3

Only 1 resistor (of 2) quelled in Allegheny!

Quir = size 7, so 1 entertainer created to maintain order
Research down to 40%; 266 gold + 35 gpt Curr in 2 (as opposed to -53 gpt Curr in 1)

Tikal = size 6, so 1 entertainer created to maintain order
however now has 1 food shortage per turn
Tikal has JT due in 2, so I've queued up worker in 1 - I know we said no Governor orders - should food shortage be an exception?

Horse now W of Salamanca heading for Iroq Horse resource (to pillage - but this may not be necesary??)
2 JTs in forest SS of Salamanca
Elite JT heading N (on oasis) SE of Salamanca
JT moved NE onto mine/road tile S of Salamanca

2 JT now in position S of Niagara

4 Iroq workers building road SE of Allegheny (in 2)

There are 2 JT/2 Sett moved to/just N of Yax - no destination set
There are JT moved to/S of Palenque - no destination set
2 JT E of Tikal moving N to Yax

JT S of Qui -> Catteragus
JT N of Catteragus fortified (at least 3 units in Catteragus - poss incl 1 archer - saw some AI movement earlier)

New CI Settler en route to Yax (destination Yax)
3 workers sent to build roads in forest area N of Piedras Negras
4 SW moved vicinity of CI - suggest move N in order to build roads for new settlements

Built embassy with Aztecs (65 gold) - they're now cautious towards us, not annoyed!

201 gold + 35gpt, Currency in 2

http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ianstonehouse/c3c/470BC.jpg
The Big Picture - 470BC

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Handover Notes:
Since it's getting late here, and I have taken an age to play just five turns and write this report (and edit and upload all the screenshots!) have decided to hand over early - at 5 turns - and let someone else have fun finishing off the Iroquois! Hope this is okay!
Perhaps in war time we might consider adopting a five turn succession?

Cities captured: Allegheny, Oil Springs and Grand River
Units lost: 3 Javelin Throwers

Unit roster:
3 Sett / 12 Worker / 12 Warrior / 1 Spear / 1 Horse / 21 JT / 2 Curragh
2 Barb Workers / 6 Iroq Workers

In production:
4 JT / 3 Horse

Suggest new Horses off W towards unknown Iroq city?
Think we have PLENTY of units to finish this - so after 4 JT / 3 Horse produced consider starting Temples, Markets (once Currency is discovered in 2 turns).
Keep a good eye on citizen happiness - a few cities on fine balance!
Alliance with Aztecs redundant - Iroq can be defeated easily enough alone
As stated above - pretty sure there are at least 3 units in Catteragus - incl an archer!

Over and out for tonight - I must go eat!
Fruno

> Saved game attached below [Mac Mayaniac of the Maya, 470 BC.SAV]

Roster:
Beamup (on deck)
dojoboy
Serkhon
Blue Monkey (missed turn)
frunobulax (just played)
Aoxomoxoa (up!)

Annoyed Iroq demand we withdraw our forces from Grand River - we refuse - it's war!

You realize, you have now sealed the fate of the Aztecs. We must destory them before the rest of the world learns of our treachery. ;)

Great turns, sounds like fun. I've no problem w/ you ending in 5 turns - gracious. But, feel free to continue for the rest.

Cities captured: Allegheny, Oil Springs and Grand River
Units lost: 3 Javelin Throwers

Unit roster:
3 Sett / 12 Worker / 12 Warrior / 1 Spear / 1 Horse / 21 JT / 2 Curragh
2 Barb Workers / 6 Iroq Workers

In production:
4 JT / 3 Horse
Well played! You've damaged the Iro badly already, for minimal cost.

Think we have PLENTY of units to finish this - so after 4 JT / 3 Horse produced consider starting Temples, Markets (once Currency is discovered in 2 turns).
Maybe swap the JTs to Horse, for a total of 7? JTs may have difficulty reaching the front in time to be useful, if we carry on so sucessfully!

Maybe swap the JTs to Horse, for a total of 7? JTs may have difficulty reaching the front in time to be useful, if we carry on so sucessfully!
I agree. Adding to our flexibility (speed of response) helps in the long run, as well as our immediate campaign.

Your faithful Aoxo reports the last two century as follows:

Turn 1 - 450 BC - Shifted all JT's to Horsemen where possible. Lots of settlers waiting. Directed troops to Cattaragus, Niagara Falls and Salamanca. Trying to pick off a settler heading to the NNE.

Turn 2 - 430 BC - Killed an archer near Cattarugus. Continued moving troops into place. Discovered Currency, moved to construction.

Turn 3 - 410 BC - Attacked Cattagus, and placed our own govt. there. Did not lose a troop. Sent settler south of Lagotero. Horseman attacks spear/settler, retreats : (.

Turn 4 - 390 BC - Attacked Salamanca, won some lost many, he had 1 hp left in city. AARRRGGGGHHHHH!!!! Got the settler and spearman. Didn't get Iron is unhappy. Iro galley moving south along our coast. Garrisoned workers in Didn;t get Iron.

Turn 5 - 370 BC - Captured Salamanca and installed our own govt. Massing on Niagara Falls and Tonawanda. Started Granary in Allegheny. This can be another settler producer.

Turn 6 - 350 BC - More troop movements. Citizens getting a little war weary already. Founded Cuello.

Turn 7 - 330 BC - Same as above.

Turn 8 - 310 BC - Conquered Niagara Falls. Installed our governor. Troops moving to Tonawanda. Began shifting production off of military to Libraries.

Turn 9 - 290 BC - Conquered Tonawanda and raised it. Settler heading toward spot 1 square NE to get next to river and get access to wheat right away. Will be there in two turns. Tulum founded. Traded currency to Aztecs for his 75g treasury.

Turn 10 - 270 BC - More movement toward Mauch Chunk. Stupid barbs made all their spearman elites there.. Sigh. Founded Coba. Settler heading to gems north of Salamanca, settler heading to south of Cuello. Sent science to feudalism. If this is the bad choice, change before Saving turn.

Notes:
Iro's gone in 2-3 turns, massive expansion move. Also, lets start risking galleys across the seas. Need to make contact. We grew by 6 cities, with 3 more close to building.

114615

114616

Good work, but we should keep Chichen Itza pumping out settlers and not waste time building a temple at this stage - we need settlers by the barrel load! Same with Salamanca, surely?

Looks great! I'll finish off Mauch Chunk, do a bunch of expansion and infrastructure, and try to get overseas to make contact.

One of my priorities is to get cities up to size 7. Due to Republic support parameters, each size 7 city is worth 4 gpt over size 6.

Got it. I don't intend to start play immediately, though, so comments are welcome. Especially with regard to our research path.

Looks great! I'll finish off Mauch Chunk, do a bunch of expansion and infrastructure, and try to get overseas to make contact.

One of my priorities is to get cities up to size 7. Due to Republic support parameters, each size 7 city is worth 4 gpt over size 6.

Got it. I don't intend to start play immediately, though, so comments are welcome. Especially with regard to our research path.

Sounds good Beamup. Since we're not aiming as yet, if ever, to move on the Aztecs, perhaps we should research through the Education branch - picking off the economic and culture techs.

Looking at the save, I note that Iroquois territory is very badly corrupt. Indeed, almost completely corrupt. Therefore, the question of FP placement and timing has become acute - and should be discussed before I play.

I propose that Salamanca build the FP immediately. Well, almost immediately - looking at the current waste figures, I think it'll actually be faster to build a Courthouse first. Yes, we'd like to build Settlers there - but it's so corrupt that would be difficult to do in a timely fashion.

I propose that Salamanca build the FP immediately. Well, almost immediately - looking at the current waste figures, I think it'll actually be faster to build a Courthouse first. Yes, we'd like to build Settlers there - but it's so corrupt that would be difficult to do in a timely fashion.

I think that is a safe choice. The FP is not as effective as it is in Civ3/PTW, and building it too far from the capital can be ineffectual. There was a discussion on this back when Conquests came up, but... .

The FP is not as effective as it is in Civ3/PTW, and building it too far from the capital can be ineffectual. There was a discussion on this back when Conquests came up, but... .
If you remember where it is, a link would be appreciated. Having absorbed so many cities quickly, it's important to regain all that production/gp bound up in corruption. Is there anyway to know how much is really distance/corruption, and what's resistance or WW since the war goes on?

Try this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=89805)for an overview of the main differences between the Classic and C3C games. Also check the Civ3 Strategy Articles for threads by Alexman on Corruption.

Is there anyway to know how much is really distance/corruption, and what's resistance or WW since the war goes on?
Yes - since resistance and WW don't directly produce corruption or waste. If they send the city into disorder, that's one thing - but they don't do anything themselves. All of the corruption and waste are due to distance and number of cities.

I've been doing preflight checkups here. Still haven't hit End Turn, and I've got enough written I'll go ahead and report in multiple posts.

Preflight check:
It appears from prior comments and my shadowing that The Great Barbarian Uprising occured during Aoxomoxoa's turn. This would indicate that at least two of the other civs have entered the Middle Ages before us, but only slightly. Hence, it appears we have approximate tech parity with the other civs.

We are #1 in most demographics, including all of the important ones, and have 34% of the world's population!

Our RoP reputation is definitely hosed. That may hurt us in the long run unless we wipe out Azteca before they can contact the other civs (i.e. Navigation/Magnetism).

Current units:
3 Settlers, 17 Workers
14 Warriors, 2 Spearmen, 17 Horsemen, 15 JTs
2 Curraghs
13 Iroquois workers, 2 Barbarian workers

For an effective total of 22 of our Workers for 22 cities. We just need to keep our Worker production up with our Settler production. Our military is currently costing us a mind-boggling 84 GPT. We must not build any more units, as that's almost a third of our Golden Age income. In fact, we may need to start disbanding Warriors.

People aren't too happy, but that should let up once the Iroquois are eliminated once and for all.

We have 5 Horsemen in position to strike Mauch Chunk next turn. That should be adequate for a city that can't possibly have more than 1 or 2 Spearmen in it.

I also observe a large number of units on Go To orders. We should avoid this at handoff so people don't get confused about what's where and why!

There are Anasazi near Coba. Will deploy JTs to deal with it.

In terms of management, we have lots of completely pointless entertainers, and too much extra military being built. Given the soon-to-be-very-precarious state of our finances (and the extra happy face), I emphasize Marketplaces over Libraries unless we need culture in the city.

CI: Temple->Settler. There is zero point to a Temple here until it grows a LOT.
Salamanca: Temple->Courthouse, FP should be next.
Niagara Falls: Spearman->Galley (to try and make contact).
Copan: Only one entertainer is needed. MM for shields, as it's going to be quite hard to keep happy any bigger. Library->Marketplace.
Palenque: Taxman can go back to work. MM for growth. Library->Marketplace.
Tikal: No need for entertainer. Library->Marketplace.
Grand River: MM for growth.
Allegheny: Entertainer->Scientist. Barracks->Marketplace.
Bonampak: Horseman->Marketplace. Use the Furs! Why work a regular forest when there's one with a resource available? Needs Worker help badly.
Cattaraugus: Barracks->Galley. MM for growth.
Quirigua: Entertainers are superfluous. One put back to work, one becomes Scientist. Library->Marketplace.
Oil Springs: Temple->Library. MM for growth.
Calakmul: Entertainer is completely pointless. Put him back to work. Library->Marketplace.
Didn't Get Iron: Library->Marketplace.
Kaminaljuyu: Library->Marketplace.
Piedras Negras: MM for growth. Library->Marketplace.
Tulum: Not a good worker production site, but more are needed, I suppose. No change.
Uaxactun: Harbor left to complete so city can be a fishing village.
Cuello: Warrior->Library.
Coba: See Tulum.

Now that we have the Pyramids, I also sell the old Granaries in CI and Tikal, for a free 30 gold.

Research changed to Monotheism. Surplus garrisons in some cities redeployed.

The reason I put CI on a temple was precisely to build the pop back up. We had slipped so that the last settler created took us down to 2 population.

I figured we could roll a few extra settlers out of some of our near 30 cities while CI got it's pop up to that 6-8 area.

Allegheny should also be developed into a settler factory. Salamanca too, once corruption gets under control.

Sorry about the go-to's, and obviously the entertainer extravagance.

Aoxo

The reason I put CI on a temple was precisely to build the pop back up. We had slipped so that the last settler created took us down to 2 population.
And I'll keep an eye on that (it's OK right now, but will require monitoring), but a Library or Marketplace would've been a better pick.

14 Warriors, 17 Horsemen, 15 JTs


That would eliminate the Aztecs. However, can we get to them soon enough?

In terms of management, we have lots of completely pointless entertainers, and too much extra military being built. Given the soon-to-be-very-precarious state of our finances (and the extra happy face), I emphasize Marketplaces over Libraries unless we need culture in the city.


Go for M/Ps. We're really in no danger of losing towns to culture-flips and there are not any key resources needed to necessitate border-pushes. Plus, we could always build a colony if that was the case. I love gpt.

Try this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=89805)for an overview of the main differences between the Classic and C3C games.
Sorry Alan, I don't have the patience to search through eight pages of random comments for the relevent data.


After completing conquest of the Iro, should we use Horsemen to quickly reexplore the northern frontier?

SirPleb's article is a good summary.

Having played 1 turn (and with a fire alarm in the building), I return to update the crew on happenings with major implications, and present what I propose to do.

250 BC (1): Uaxactun Harbor->Marketplace. Starts working the coast to grow faster.

One of our Curraghs sinks a barb Galley, losing 1 bar.

The attack on Mauch Chunk commences!!!
The first Horseman knocks 1 bar off their Elite spear, and retreats. :mad:
The second Horseman retreats after dealing NO damage. :cringe:
Yet I perservere, and the third knocks off 2 more bars before dying. A Regular is revealed.
Our fourth Horseman charges into the breach! He redlines the spear for no damage! :thumbsup: But then he loses 3 rounds in a row and is redlined himself! :eek: But he carries through and destroys the Spear - and promotes to Elite! :goodjob:
Our final Horseman knocks off one bar in the first round, is redlined by losing three in a row, then finishes the final Spearman in Mauch Chunk! It's a decent spot, so I keep it (along with a Worker). Set to Library.

But what's that? The Iroquois survive! Must have had a Settler on that galley near Didn't Get Iron. *scroll over* No... that Galley's gone... AARGH! As soon as Mauch Chunk was destroyed, they got a new city up by Aztec territory - St. Regis. I know for a fact that they didn't have it at the beginning of the turn, as it didn't show up in peace negotiations. :aargh:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/MMStRegis.jpg

OK, where do we go from here? We can get 100 gold and a Worker for peace (which they also didn't have at the beginning of the turn). It will take 12 turns for any of our Horsemen to reach St. Regis. WW is becoming significant. Accordingly, I propose to sign peace, send our troops off to St. Regis, and when they get there, crush the enemy (the penalties for breaking a peace treaty are minor). Or we could wait a few extra turns before the attack, to let 20 expire and reduce the penalties further. I don't think staying at war that long is such a good option due to WW.

I do NOT believe we have the troops to take out Azteca at this point. They have 18 cities right now, and will have more by the time our army reaches them. OTOH, if we build up for a Knight assault, the other civs will never know of our perfidious dealings with our fellow Americans...

That is some sneaky s**t!

Also shows Azteca moing into the east zone.

Time for industrious to shine!

Aoxo

Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=104294) is a shorter thread with some C3C differences from PTW. I think Arathorn's latter posts and Doc Tsiolkovski's post include everything significant. I just noticed one omission (which would be particularly significant with your civ): slaves are not industrious until replaceable parts, and natives are not industrious in anarchy.

Is AI respawn on (the 100g and worker hint that in particular)?

Default rules, so I suppose it is just Respawn AI. I've just never seen it before, I guess (usually have that off).

Sign peace.

Aztecs have that many settlements, eh. Can't view the save files here at work. Are we that isolated that no other civ will meet the Aztecs by the time we're able to take advantage of Civalry?

Yes - remember, the AI won't use suicide galleys. And our continent is completely surrounded by Ocean, which means they can't cross it until Navigation or Magnetism. So we can easily get to Chivalry before they get there - heck, we could probably make MilTrad before anyone but us crosses the ocean!

Will probably sign peace and play the rest of the turns in an hour or so unless somebody objects.

Sign peace, move in on St Regis and finish the job - despite penalities.

I am pretty sure the Aztecs have no Iron or Horses at moment - though their new city on the western peninsula is near to Iron - we need to secure the Iron & Horse resources (dots #1+2) out in the wilderness between Mauch Chunk and the Aztecs - see screenshot below - a very rapid wilderness dotmap i just put together... feel free to amend!

We also need a city on that chokepoint to western peninsula (dot #3).

http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ianstonehouse/c3c/wilderness_dotmap.jpg

250 BC (1) continued: Sign peace, getting 100 gold and another slave. WW abates, and specialists put back to work across Mayan territory.

230 BC (2): Dzibilchaltun founded SE of Mauch Chunk (Worker). Warrior spotted nearby, Horseman dispatched to deal with it.
Uxmal founded S of Cuello. Pretty worthless, set to Worker.

210 BC (3): I may have been wrong about the Great Barbarian Uprising. 17 Horsemen appear near Dzib. JTs are not in good position to defend, so our Horsemen will have to try and counter. This could get messy.
CI Settler->Settler (will head south). It turns out it's on a perfect 4-turn cycle, so this population is fine for a long time.

190 BC (4): Copan Marketplace->Library.
Palenque Marketplace->Library.
Calakmul Marketplace->Aqueduct.
Science to 60% - Monotheism in 6 at a -4 deficit.

Oddly the huge Horseman stack is not advancing. Gives us time to gather some troops to stop them.

Realize the Spirit of 1550 was left fortified and has not been being used! Wake it up to continue exploring. It spots a barbarian camp with another huge stack of Horsemen.

170 BC (5): More swarms of Horsemen approaching.
Lagartero Worker->Worker.
Cattaraugus Galley->Marketplace.

Notice Palenque needs an Aqueduct before it can grow :smoke:. Library->Aqueduct.
Dzib is under major threat. Worker->Spearman, and rush it for 68 gold.

150 BC (6): Only some of the Horsemen advance.
Quirigua Marketplace->Library.
Piedras Negras Marketplace->Aqueduct.
Dzibilchaltun Spearman->Worker.

Eliminate 3 Horsemen, promote 1 Horseman to Elite. Find a camp near Coba with 16 Horsemen and 2 Warriors. Eliminate 1 Warrior there.

130 BC (7): 2 JTs eliminate 8 barb Horsemen that attack. 1 promotes to Elite and enslaves a Worker. That stack is mostly dead. The camp near Coba empties, and the barbs near Dzib head for our Horse army.
CI Settler->Settler.
Palenque Aqueduct->Library.
Tikal Marketplace->Aqueduct.
Yaxchilan Library->Marketplace.
Lagartero Worker->Worker.
Tulum Worker->Marketplace.

Kill 2 Horsemen & 1 Warrior near Coba, dispersing that camp.
Kill 5 Horsemen & 2 Warriors near Dzib, dispersing that camp.
Learn that there are barbarians on the southern peninsula somewhere - we'll have to build a few more units to disperse them, since our army is up north. CI to JT.

Our Golden Age is over.

110 BC (8): We lose 2 Horsemen - 1 near Dzib, 1 near Coba. The stack near Coba heads off into the fog.

Kill 6 Horsemen near Dzib. Still 6 there.
Kill 1 Horseman and disperse a camp on the way to St. Regis.
Kill 1 Horseman near Coba. Still 13 there.

Mayapan founded in the south. Starts JT.

Science at 50%, breaking even after our GA. Monotheism in 2.

90 BC (9): Kill 5 Horsemen near Coba. 1 Worker enslaved, 1 Horseman Elite. The stack near Dzib seems to be going after some slaves near the city - pull them in.

Lagartero Worker->Worker.
Uxmal Worker->JT.

Find the Carib camp in the south. 16 Horsemen, 2 Warriors.
Suicide Galley sets off to the east, attempting to find something interesting.
Kabah founded in the north near the other gems. Starts Library.

70 BC (10): 7 Horsemen killed near Coba. 2 slaves, 2 Elite JTs. 1 JT killed. Road pillaged.
4 Horsemen killed near Dzib. 1 Regular JT -> Elite. 1 Spearman killed.

Monotheism comes in. Next up is Theology.
Bonampak Marketplace->Library.
Calakmul Library->Aqueduct.
Kaminaljuyu Marketplace->Aqueduct.
Coba Worker->Library.

Aztecs are building Hanging Gardens, so they must have just learned Monarchy (didn't have it last turn). I won't trade for it since we don't need it.
We get a Palace improvement!
Galley sunk. It saw nothing of interest.

The last Horseman near Coba has been slain!
The last 2 Horsemen near Dzib have been slain, but there's still a camp at the tip of that peninsula. Some Horsemen are headed that way.

Well, that was an interesting turn. Not so productive as I'd hoped, due to the need to deal with the barbarian hordes. In particular we're not as close to St. Regis as I'd like, and our expansion has been south instead of north (though that may backfire due to the camp down there!) Total tally:
- 4 Warriors and 42 Horsemen slain.
- 3 barbarian camps dispersed.
- 6 new elite units.
- 4 new slaves.
- 2 Horsemen, 1 Spearman, and 1 road lost.

Handoff notes:
The Settler in the south should found a city due W of the Game to make use of the rest of the S peninsula. The island offshore there may be worth a city eventually.

There are still 2 camps that are threats - one in the south, one near Mauch Chunk (screenies below). There are 5 Horsemen en route to deal with the latter, and some JTs in production for the former.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/MM70BCSouth.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/MM70BCWest.jpg

A good-sized chunk of our army is on the way to finish off the Iroquois again, after major delays by barbs.

Apologies for the lack of screenies - I was so preoccupied with the fighting I forgot to take them.

Roster:
Beamup (just played)
dojoboy (up!)
Serkhon (on deck)
Blue Monkey
frunobulax
Aoxomoxoa

Handoff notes:
The Settler in the south should found a city due W of the Game to make use of the rest of the S peninsula. The island offshore there may be worth a city eventually.

Got it.

Due west from where the settler is atm?

I'll view the save and maybe post some thoughts for dialgue before I play.

Due west from where the settler is atm?
I was thinking southwest - 1 tile due W from the game.

I'll make my play this afternoon; wiped out last night. I fell asleep while my wife and I were reading books to the boys in bed. Just woke up - feel great! :D

I fell asleep while my wife and I were reading books to the boys

...presume it was Sun Tzu's Art of War...? ;)

Will play & post soon.

Please skip my upcoming turn as I'm under the weather at the moment.

Hope you feel better soon!

Adjusted roster:
Beamup
dojoboy (now playing)
Serkhon (skipped)
Blue Monkey (up next)
frunobulax (on deck)
Aoxomoxoa

Pre-turn: Not much, just reviewed screens and such.

50 BC (1) -> Copan b. library, set to JT; Lagartero b. worker, set to worker; Jt enslaved worker from defeated barb horseman near Dzib-altun.; located barb camp north of Kabah;

30 BC (2) -> CI b. JT, set to settler; Piedras Negras b. aqueduct, set to JT (for southern barb camp); horseman destroys barb camp north of Kabah (25g); rush JT in Mayapan to deal w/ southern barb camp; worker moved to block settler from barb horseman;

10 BC (3) -> Largartero b. worker, set to horseman; Mayapan b. JT, set to courthouse; Peninsular barb camp destroyed (25g);

10 AD (4) -> Copan b. JT, set to JT; Quirigua b. temple, set to courthouse; Cuello b. library, set to marketplace;

30 AD (5) -> CI b. settler, set to settler; Palenque b. library, set to courthouse; Tikal b. aqueduct, set to library; Calakmul b. aqueduct, set to courthouse; barb camp discovered southwest of Dzib-altun;

50 AD (6) -> Piedras Negras b. JT, set to library; Dzib-altun b. worker, set to worker; barb camp near Dzib-altun destroyed (25g);

70 AD (7) -> Copan b. JT, set to JT; Palace improvement; JT enslaved worker near Mayapan; IBT - JT in defense enslaves barb worker near Mayapan;

90 AD (8) -> Lagartero b. horseman, set to marketplace; Kaminaljuyu b. aqueduct, set to library;

110 AD (9) -> CI b. settler, set to settler; JT enslaved barb worker near Mayapan;

AD (10) -> Reached Theology, set to Feudalism (can change w/ out penalty); Copan b. JT, set to galley (suicide?); Carib barb camp finally destroyed;

Hand-over notes: I tried to play focused, but I'm leaving town for the day tomorrow and felt a little rushed to finish and post before "Goodnight Moon." There are three new barb camps: N of Mauch Chunk, N of Dzib-altun, and SW of Dzib-altun. Neither the Iroquois or Aztecs have anything of value to offer in trade. Where are we with workers? Twenty-six total. ??? Our support costs are 64 gpt. We are finally safe to settle the last spot on the southern peninsula - due west of the game, settler in position. Two settlers heading west for iron & horse. I've set up a blockade to slow Aztec settlers.

Beamup
dojoboy (just finished)
Serkhon (skipped)
Blue Monkey (up!)
frunobulax (on deck)
Aoxomoxoa

I've got the save. I'll value any comments/suggestions; I'll be playing tomorrow evening, from around 7pm PST until I'm done.


Okay, I've looked at the save, which leads to the following questions/ problems:

I see a lot of unhappy citizens & corruption; A) should we build the Forbidden Palace (When / Where) B) A lot of these cities are building libraries when I would first have built temples, i don't understand the strategy. C) Should we adjust our budget rather than use multiple entertainers, or am i missing that resistance is still going on and this wouldn't work?

Several of these same cities are starving. Wouldn't make sense to build Harbors, and workers to ease population pressure and begin irrigation, rather than Libraries?

Should we build a couple more galleys and send a couple of settlers and military support across that peninnsula behind the Iros, opening a second front and beginning a colonization chain we want to start eventually anyway?

A) should we build the Forbidden Palace (When / Where)
Already discussed. Salamanca will build it as soon as its courthouse finishes.

B) A lot of these cities are building libraries when I would first have built temples, i don't understand the strategy.
We have zero need for temples until the city gets big. Until then, entertainment slider and luxuries are all we need. Remember, a Temple provides 1 content face (equivalent to 1 commerce). A Library provides a lot more than that. And a Marketplace does as well with happiness, plus provides cash - for that matter, a Courthouse does better than a Temple in many of our cities!

Temples should only be built before Libraries (or, indeed, built at all) if you have an immediate happiness problem. Oil Springs is the only city I'd favor a Temple in right now.

C) Should we adjust our budget rather than use multiple entertainers, or am i missing that resistance is still going on and this wouldn't work?
Looking at the cities, we are currently using 9 entertainers and a scientist. 2 entertainers and the scientist can be put back to work. 4 can become scientists. Salamanca is about to riot and needs another scientist. Ditto for Copan.

Bumping the entertainment slider costs 25 gold and allows 4 scientists to be put back to work. Probably not worth it! Corruption is just so high that scientists/taxmen are actually desirable, and the entertainment slider isn't terribly effective.

Several of these same cities are starving. Wouldn't make sense to build Harbors, and workers to ease population pressure and begin irrigation, rather than Libraries?
Two cities. Oil Springs just needs a bit of micro to solve that, and needs a border pop before either Workers or a Harbor would help much - hence the Library. Grand River similarly needs a pop, not Workers or a Harbor. So the Libraries are actually the best way to get them more food.

Should we build a couple more galleys and send a couple of settlers and military support across that peninnsula behind the Iros, opening a second front and beginning a colonization chain we want to start eventually anyway?
Wouldn't gain us anything, really.

In terms of research, the only point to Feudalism I can see is going for Chivalry to take out Monty. If we don't want to head straight there, we should trade for Feudalism instead of research it. And if we do want a war, Engineering would be nice, too - Trebuchets can be quite useful, especially if the Aztecs make Feudalism before we can strike. Plus it'll speed up our Workers and Settlers due to all the rivers around.

So I'd go for Engineering if we want a fight, and Education if we don't.

A final thought - we might just be well served by having Copan go after the Great Lighthouse, which would help us contact the other civs.

Thanks, Beamup, for the perspective and advice. I knew we'd talked about FP but lost track of timing & placement. I'll be following your suggestions on the individual cities. I too think researching Engineering makes a lot of sense, both now and in the long run. I'vr always found it advantageous to research techs that open up paths and trade them lucratively for the dead end ones the short-sighted AIs research.:hammer: Now to work building our Civ.

PreTurn/130 AD - Following Beamup’s suggestion I made some adjustments; notably shifting production in Oil Springs to Temple, and switching research to Engineering. Monty warns us away from Tlaxcala. apologize & gift 4 gp. People build palace addition.

150 AD - Curragh lost at sea. Vet horseman clears out Navajo barb camp for 25 gp. Workers set to chop forest N. of Salamanca so irrigation can be spread to Kabah and Coba. Anasazi barb camp cleared by Horse (25 gp). Ake founded, set to build harbor (it will need it with all that tundra).


170 AD - Palenque completes courthouse => colosseum. Grand River library => worker (will also cure food shortfall). Cattaraugus marketplace => library. Didn’t Get Iron is in disorder; shift scientist to entertainer. More wandering barbs cleaned up, at the loss of a Horseman. Uxmal shifts build to harbor. Bump Sci budget to 60%, gaining a turn on research.

190 AD - Forest harvested, 10 shields to Coba. CI settler => settler. Calakmul courthouse => harbor. Order restored in DGI. Aztecs are building Great Wall. CI settler sent toward northern frontier. Another barb camp revealed and cleared (25 gp). Subsequent turns include unmentioned chasing/subduing of barbarians all over the map . 4 GP gifted to Monty to fend of annoyance due to warrior’s continued exploration of Aztec territory. (He’s booted out).

210 AD - Salamanca builds courthouse => Forbidden Palace. Niagra Falls is in disorder, assign entertainer; shift build to library. Copan builds galley => Great Lighthouse. Tikal library => settler. Quirigua courthouse => Temple of Artemis. Piedras Negras library => coliseum. Aztecs building Lighthouse. Cattaraugus production switched from library to aqueduct.

230 AD - Settler ambushed by newly appearing Barb camp. Yaxchilan is in disorder, make entertainer. DGI set to build library, will grow next turn so add entertainer. English complete Great Lighthouse, both we and Aztecs lost out there; switch Copan production to harbor.

250 AD - Grand River worker => market. Bonampak library => horseman. Dzib worker => library. Aztecs build Temple of Artemis, we lose again; Quirigua switches to coliseum. Rush build aqueduct in Cattaraugus for 88 gp. Gift furious Hiawatha 10 gp to grease our getting close to Iroq border. Visit cautious Monty & gift 3 gp.

260 AD - Gain Engineering & start Feudalism. CI settler => settler. Cattaraugus aqueduct => barracks.

270 AD - Tikal settler => settler. Kaminaljuyu library => harbor.

280 AD - gift furious Hiawatha another 5 gp. Yaxchilan => JT. Oil Springs temple =>library. Calakmul harbor => coliseum. Uaxatun market => court. Cuello marketplace => aqueduct.

290 AD - Copan harbor => JT. Tulum is in disorder; give entertainer.

The last few turns saw me herding Aztec settlers away from prime land with the following results:
115041
115040

Our first units (mostly Horsemen) have started to reach the Iroq frontier.
115038
As we moved into the area, there were quit a few incidents of Aztec jaguars, etc. crossing into Iroq. territory. If we start a war will we face an alliance?
115045

Here’s the save:
115042

Have grabbed save - playing!

If we end up facing an alliance, that's just an excuse to open up some :hammer: on Monty too! Our troops are in much better position to cause him trouble than his are to cause us trouble.

Sorry I've not made comments of late. I arrived home at 3 am this morning. Things appear to be going well. Chivalry may need to be on our list soon.

I think we need to pump a round of settlers out of the towns that are just finishing markets/courts/libs. This can give u us several settlers over the next 10-20 turns to get all that prime real estate settled.

Aoxo

Sorry I've not made comments of late. I arrived home at 3 am this morning. Things appear to be going well. Chivalry may need to be on our list soon.
Soon = next, maybe? :satan:

I think we need to pump a round of settlers out of the towns that are just finishing markets/courts/libs. This can give u us several settlers over the next 10-20 turns to get all that prime real estate settled.
Sounds like a good idea to me. A round of Settlers, then a nice big round of eveningtimes*, perhaps?

*: Eveningtimes = nights = Knights, for those who didn't get the really bad pun.

Interim Report to the Counsel of Mayaniacs: 360AD - Fruno's turn #7

Fellow Mayaniacs, before I continue my current turn I wanted to canvas opinions about research. We have just discovered Chivalry, following discovery of Feudalism in 310AD (and yes, we DO have some Knights on the way...).

Which direction shall we turn our research?
http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ianstonehouse/c3c/research_360ad.jpg


I won't post a full 'log' so far, but will do that once my 10 turns are over.


Note that I have founded 3 new cities so far - Marlboro Country :), River Crossing and Lazapa - and are 5 more settlers moving out too.

There are a good number (10-12) of Aztec troops sniffing around near our northern borders in the mountains (this shot from 330AD):
http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ianstonehouse/c3c/330_new_cities.jpg


Also, shall we start a GW*? Palenque can do Sistine in 39, or there's Sun Tzu's Art of War, which Aztecs have just started.... again, opinions please!

*Recently completed GW's : Aztecs have Hanging Gardens (350AD), Dutch have Great Wall (340AD) and Portugese have Great Library (310AD).

Since we can now peoduce knights, I say we branch toward Education and pick up commercial and scientific GWs.

I concur with Education. If we're going to take out Azteca with Knights, we have little need for the lower branch.

As far as GWs go, remember that at least some of the other civs made it to the Middle Ages before we did. And the AI places a very high priority on Feudalism. So, IMO our odds of getting Sun Tzu are pretty much nil. As for Sistine, we have no Cathedrals, and don't have cities big enough for a double-effect Cathedral to give us much benefit. So I would file that under "600 shields that could more profitably have become 8.5 Knights."

The Knights Templar would be an option. Or we could go for the later Education-branch wonders like Bach, Copernicus, or Smith's. But right now I'd say the KT is the only one we might even consider - and that I'd be inclined to say no, also.

The 4th Century AD: Mayaniacs

Turn 0 - 290BC

Tweaked tax/entertainers in various cities to maximize gold, aswell a a couple that were about to riot.

Now 856+37gpt, Feudalism in 2; research @ 70%.

Unit roster = 13 Warr / 2 Spear / 14 Horse / 18 JavThrow / 1 Galley / 1 Curragh / 28 Workers / 4 Settlers
81 total (54 allowed)


Turn 1 - 300AD

CI = settler -> settler
Palenque = Coloseum -> Sword (in 3)
Lagartero = Market -> Aqueduct (in 7 )

Order restored in Tulum


Turn 2 - 310AD

We discover Feudalism :), now research Chivalry (in 5); research@ 70%.

Portugal completes The Great Library

Bonampak = Horse -> Courthouse.

Curragh spots BIG Barbarian encampment far to the south west of Iroq. city of Centralia (16 conscript horsemen!)
http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ianstonehouse/c3c/310_centralia.jpg


Turn 3 - 320AD

Tikal = settler -> settler (in 5)

River Crossing and Marlboro Country founded, and road is completed to River Crossing.

We notice a lot of Aztec forces NE and E of River Crossing heading south...


Turn 4 - 330AD

Allegheny = market -> courthouse.

Aztecs warn our Warrior out of vicinity of Huexotla - we comply (they are annoyed with us).

Barbarian camp destroyed by one of our horsemen W of Dzibilchaltun.

Cattaraugus = barracks -> pikeman (in 5).

Lazapa founded on 2 wheat area.
http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ianstonehouse/c3c/330_new_cities.jpg


Turn 5 - 340AD

Aztecs again warn us off Huexotla - we comply.

Galley is attacked by Barbarian galley NE of Niagara, but wins! Is sent off east on suicide ocean crossing.

CI = Settler -> Settler (in 5)

Copan both make Medieval Inf -> same in 4 (but will switch to Knight)

Calak & Piedras both riot - they'd grown - annoyed I didn't spot this!

The Dutch complete Great Wall in Amsterdam

Elite Horse destroys Barbarian camp SE of Marlboro (+25g)


Turn 6 - 350AD

G River = Pikeman -> Courthouse

Kamainal = Harbour -> Horse

order restored to Calak & Piedra

Cuello = Aqueduct -> Galley

Aztec city of Texcoco completes The Hanging Gardens

Our suicide Galley is lost at sea...
http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ianstonehouse/c3c/lost_galley.jpg

Copan = Colisseum (now size 11)
Luxury slider set up to 10% to handle unhappy citizens. research @ 50%
Chivalry in 1 (1194+50gpt.


Turn 7 - 360AD

Chivalry discovered - set to Education (in 7)

Tikal = settler -> settler

Quir = Colisseum -> Knight


Turn 8 - 370AD

Lagar = Aqueduct -> Galley

Piedras = Colisseum -> Pikeman (think we need more of these to secure N border
cities from Aztecs snooping about, though I think their troop movements have more
to do with Barb. encampments on Dzibil. Peninsula!)

More Barbs appear on Dzibil. Peninsuala

Ek Balam founded


Turn 9 - 380AD

Barbs on Dzibil. Peninsula attack our Horsemen, who retreats on 1 red bar.

CI= settler -> settler

Cozumel founded - accompanying Horsemen rides out and destroys (last?) barb encampment
on Dzibil. Peninsula (+25g)

We sent two Horse over the border near Iroq. city of Centralia to spy-out S part of that land.
Iroq express annoyance and ask us to leave soon!


Turn 10 - 390AD

Palenque = Knight :) -> Knight (in 4)
Cuello = Galley -> Courthouse
Mayap = Courthouse -> Library


Handover Notes:

Before rthe next turn - please check cities! A few may be about to grow a size in the next turn and may then be liable to rioting!

5 cities founded - River Crossing, Marlboro Country, Lazapa, Ek Balam and Cozumel
Two techs discovered - Feudalism and Chivalry

Our first Knight has been produced - we need lots more if we are inevitably going to face Aztecs.

Also should think about 1 Vet Pikeman per N border city as insurance against Aztecs

As I said above, think Aztec activity along our N borders may well be connected to Barbarian
encampments on Dzibil. Peninsula - the last of which we have destroyed (I think!) We have cities on
all locations there so hopefully that's the last we'll see of them!

We have 4 settlers - but Aztecs have beaten us to a few choice spots... where to send them next??

1361+32 gpt; Education in 4


Roster:
Beamup (on deck)
dojoboy
Serkhon
Blue Monkey
frunobulax (just finished)
Aoxomoxoa (up!)


Mayaniacs circa 390AD :

For LARGE version (490Kb) go here - >
BIG SCREENSHOT 390 AD (http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ianstonehouse/c3c/Maya_390AD_big.jpg)

http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ianstonehouse/c3c/Maya_390AD_small.jpg

Well played - looks like we're in good shape.

We have 4 settlers - but Aztecs have beaten us to a few choice spots... where to send them next??
I see 4 spots I'd want to put cities.
- Between Dzib and Cozumel to use that line of hills
- Between Kabah and River Crossing to fill in - it'll be good terrain once it's cleared
- NNE of Kabah (ditto)
- NE of Coba

These would fill in pretty much all of the available territory, except on the Iro peninsula. We should deploy a single unit S of Cozumel to keep an eye on those desert tiles to prevent even more barbs from spawning there. Ditto for the tiny peninsula E of Coba. Leave a single tile under the fog, and barbs are virtually guaranteed to appear.

We should also try and get our Horsemen back to Barracks to get upgraded (once the Iro are dead, and leaving the Elites so they can maybe produce an MGL). Grand River looks like a good spot for that. Vet Warriors too.

It also looks like we have an awful lot of our troops tied up in nickel-and-dime garrisons. We really don't need garrisons in all our cities, as the great majority are under no threat at all. All Elite JTs, Horsemen, MedInf, and Knights should be devoted to offensive duties.

Our troops currently on the Iroquois peninsula should be adequate to take them out, provided we concentrate on one city at a time. Our advantage is fleeting, though, since they will rebuild! We should eliminate them ASAP, then turn our attention to Monty once our Knights are fully online.

Well we have a settler up by the Aztecs main border, i'm gonna jam him against their border. Can fill in all those spots. I think a 3rd settler should hit that jungle aea between us and the aztecs.

Taking out the iro's with the units present is not going to be easy. 5 units (2 of them undermanned) against 3 cities now.

Think we oughta trade a luxury to aztecs? Give us 20 turns to mobilize.

Might be able to play this tomorrow night.

Aoxo

Well we have a settler up by the Aztecs main border, i'm gonna jam him against their border. Can fill in all those spots.
What, up by Lazapa? I don't think that area is a good idea. It's likely to provoke the Aztecs too soon, won't gain us anything of significance, and will be very badly placed (i.e. too tight) once we take the Aztec cities.

Taking out the iro's with the units present is not going to be easy. 5 units (2 of them undermanned) against 3 cities now.
More 5 units against 1 city, three times. And unless we can sign an RoP with the Aztecs, it's about all we're going to get.

Think we oughta trade a luxury to aztecs? Give us 20 turns to mobilize.
Won't do much good. The AI really doesn't have any compunctions about breaking deals IMX.

Due to heavy workload and not feeling very well, this isn't very wordy.

1st turn - 400 AD - Moved troops to begin the attack on the Iro's.

2nd turn - 410 AD - founded New Chichen Itza in the north. Set to Lib. Keeping an eye on Aztecs. Demand they get off the land. Take Akwasne. Attack a settler archer that had moved out of Centrailia, archer took my elite horseman down to one.

3rd turn - 420 AD - Horseman survives archer from hell and captures settler.

4th turn - 430 AD - massing troops toward Centrailia and St. Regis (all 5 of em).

5th turn - 440 AD - Aztecs demanded gems. I chuckled. He slinked.

6th turn - 450 AD - settled Tazumal in the mountain valley. Captured Centrailia. St. Regis here we come.

7th turn - 460 AD - Fortified horsemen to gain hp's. Moving into position at St. Regis. Salamanca in bad shape happiness wise.

8th turn - 470 AD - Founded New Copan. Took out an archer, and a spearman in St. Regis, lost a JT.

9th turn - 480 AD - Took out an archer, and a spearman in St. Regis, lost a JT.

10th turn - 490 AD - Gonna wait for reinforcements to finish off St. Regis. Salamanca is way unhappy about the war. Never put a single city up to that many entertainers. There is a settler north of Kabah, and then another near salamanca at this point.

115313

115314

115315

Looks pretty good. I'll try to finish off the Iroquois again (interestingly, it looks like I'll be the one doing that both times!) and build up a good force of Knights, plus some Trebuchets, for taking on Azteca.

"Got it."

That should happen on the first turn. I played an extra turn last night after saving and posting.

I know you weren;t a fan of shoving those cities against the Aztec Borders, but frankly, I can't imagine those Aztec cities being around much longer. Plus they are spread way out at this point, so it was easy to get the 9 square influence.

Should we slow up on the CI settler production? Unless we boat them over to the west, or gain some territory from the aztecs, there ain't much land left.

Aoxo

That should happen on the first turn. I played an extra turn last night after saving and posting.
:hammer: :devil: :hammer:

I know you weren;t a fan of shoving those cities against the Aztec Borders, but frankly, I can't imagine those Aztec cities being around much longer. Plus they are spread way out at this point, so it was easy to get the 9 square influence.
I was thinking of capturing, rather than razing, most of Azteca. They haven't had that long to build culture. But hey, a lot of the point of SGs is to see how other people play, right?

Should we slow up on the CI settler production? Unless we boat them over to the west, or gain some territory from the aztecs, there ain't much land left.
Sounds like a good idea.

I can't help it! I wanted to eliminate them!

Even if we capture, they spaced out their cities pretty far apart.

Aoxo

490 AD (Inherited turn): JT deployed from Niagara Falls to cover the little peninsula near there against barbs. Pike deployed from Grand River to cover the mountains N of there. Elite JTs and Horsemen woken up and moved towards the Aztec front - we really want them on the front lines to produce MGL chances!

We have 13 Horsemen and 11 Knights right now, plus 3 Trebuchets. 3 Horsemen can hit St. Regis next turn, which from Aoxo's report probably doesn't have much left. Top unit is a Regular spear.

In general, we don't need that much in terms of defenses, and should focus our funding on Knights. But no city without a Barracks should be building troops. We have 40 cities, but 29 native and 26 slave Workers. We need a bunch more of those.

CI Settler->Library.
More Entertainers added to Salamanca to get it out of rioting - 5 total. It'll stop once the Iroquois are destroyed, and won't come back (it's the fact that we're fighting their mother country, not WW).
Lagartero is building a Knight without a Barracks - swapped to Library.
Oil Springs Library->Aqueduct so it can grow.
Didn't Get Iron doesn't need Entertainers, swap to Scientists (who produce more than working the coast due to corruption).
Uaxactun also building a Knight without a Barracks - swapped to Library.
Mauch Chunk isn't growing, Library->Aqueduct so it can.
Cuello Knight->Harbor (again, no Barracks).
Coba Library->Courthouse.
Dzib needs happiness, Library->Marketplace.
Centralia Spearman->Worker (I believe in a more, shall we say, active defense).
Kabah Library->Courthouse.
Akwesasne Spearman->Worker.
Ek Balam Pikeman->Courthouse.
Cozumel Spearman->Courthouse.
New Chichen Itza Library->Walls.
Xcalumkin Warrior->Courthouse.
Tazumal Warrior->Worker.
New Copan Warrior->Worker.
New Palenque Warrior->Worker.

Interturn: We lose a Vet JT defending on a hill to a Barb warrior! :aargh:
Copan Knight->Knight.
Tikal Harbor->Trebuchet.
Oil Springs Aqueduct->Library.
Ake Galley->Galley.

500 AD (1): Gathering attack forces at Lazapa and outside Coyotepec.
We've been mining tundra? There's no point to that, Forests are strictly better.
Also, we should be irrigating all Desert, not mining it. Remember, as an Agricultural civ, we get +2 food from irrigating Desert.
Sink a Barb galley outside of Ake, there's still one left.
One Elite Horseman easily takes out the Spear in St. Regis, capturing the city. The Iroquois are destroyed!!! Set to Worker.

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/9436/mmirodead0df.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Interturn: Our Galley is attacked by the other barb Galley and sinks it, promoting to Elite. (Big deal on a suicide ship.)
Palenque Knight->Knight.
Mauch Chunk Aqueduct->Courthouse.
Akwesasne Worker->Worker.
Palace improved!
Suicide Galley sinks.

510 AD (2): Settlers holding at Dzib and Salamanca until needed.
Many specialists put back to work due to the end of the war, Entertainment down to 20%.

Interturn: Cattaraugus Knight->Knight.
Piedras Negras Knight->Knight.
Tulum Courthouse->Aqueduct.
Cuello Harbor->Knights Templar. (Hey, it'll be really nice if we can get it, and we likely can.)
Mayapan Library->Marketplace.
River Crossing Walls->Courthouse.

520 AD (3): :coffee:

Interturn: Banking comes in, research to Astronomy to help contact the other civs.
Yax Knight->Knight.
Quirigua Knight->Knight.
Lazapa Walls->Barracks.
Dutch complete Sun Tzu in Rotterdam.

530 AD (4): :coffee:

Interturn: Tikal Trebuchet->Trebuchet.
Allegheny Courthouse->Library.
Kaminaljuyu Trebuchet->Knight.
Uaxactun Library->University.

540 AD (5): :coffee:

Interturn: CI Library->Marketplace.
More Knights.
Lagartero Library->University.
Marlboro Country Pikeman->Courthouse.
Tazumal Worker->Worker.

550 AD (6): :coffee:

Interturn: Palace improvement.

560 AD (7): :coffee:

Interturn: Aztec Galley violates our borders outside New Copan - I decide not to complain, since it's not a big deal and I don't want to start anything yet.
More units.
Ake Galley->Aqueduct.
New Copan Worker->Worker.

570 AD (8): :coffee:

Interturn: More units.

580 AD (9): :coffee:

Interturn: More units.
Centralia Worker->Worker.
New Palenque Worker->Worker.
Aztecs start Leonardo's Workshop - they only just developed Invention.

590 AD (10): The Aztecs want an extortionate price for Invention - Monotheism, Gems, and a pile of gold. We could give them Monotheism (without Iron, we don't have to worry about them getting Knights), Gems, and Iron and then declare war, though.
Astronomy due in 1 at 20% science. We could go after Navigation next to contact the other civs most readily, since there seems to be a lot of ocean surrounding us.

Overall a pretty uneventful set of turns, other than wiping out the Iroquois once and for all. Lots of Worker work, and mustering units on the border. Not much else.

We now have a total force of 28 Knights, 6 Trebuchets, 16 JTs, and 9 Horsemen (some were upgraded). 3 JTs, 1 Horseman, 2 Trebuchets, and 13 Knights are in Lazapa. 1 JT, 1 Horseman, 1 MedInf, and 9 Knights are on site on a mountain outside Coyotepec. Additional units are headed north, and 3 Horsemen are exploring the rest of the former Iroquois peninsula.

IMO that's likely adequate to kick off, which dojoboy can do (after snagging Invention essentially for free?) if he sees fit. The Aztecs have their Jags, Spears, and now Longbows, as well as probably some Horsemen. Nothing that can really match Knights. Plus, we are strong vs. them!

Observations: The Aztecs apparently have access to only one source of Iron, which isn't hooked up yet - but there's a Worker building a road that way. It's just outside New Chichen Itza, and should be our first target when we attack. Remember the two Settlers in Dzib and Salamanca, ready to be dispatched wherever they are needed.

I have also noted a tendency to leave ships fortified, thinking they'll heal. Ships will only heal in a port - so this ends up just having them spend turns sitting around doing nothing until the next player notices that they haven't been doing anything.

Few screenies, since little happened that was terribly screenie-worthy.

Roster:
Beamup (just played)
dojoboy (up!)
Serkhon (on deck)
Blue Monkey
frunobulax
Aoxomoxoa

Thanks Beamup. Got it. I'm looking to play this afternoon. The large map is new to me, 40 cities. Wow, never dealt with managing that many before.

The large map is new to me, 40 cities. Wow, never dealt with managing that many before.

I often play with many cities. I find that it becomes more critical to keep citizens happy; even a lot of small losses in productivity add up quickly. Initial investment in things like temples, coliseums, etc. slows down ability to be aggressive, but pays off in the long run with the ability to wage longer wars.

Currently playing turns. War w/ Aztecs has commenced.

Pre-turn: Repositioned stack of knights one tile west, due south of Coyotepec.

600 AD (1) - Reach Astronomy, set to Navigation; Copan b. knight, set to knight; Tikal b. trebuchet, set to trebuchet; Yaxchilan b. knight, set to knight; Cattaraugus b. knight, set to knight; DGI b. courthouse, set to caravel (exploration, combat, transport); St. Regis b. worker, set to worker; Positioned forces for Aztec War.

610 AD (2) - Grand River b. courthouse, set to marketplace; Akwesasne b. worker, set to JT(defense sparse on peninsula w/ horsemen south); New CI b. walls, set to library; Trade Monotheism, 50 gpt, and gems to Aztecs for Invention; Declare war on Aztec, recouping 50 gpt & gems; Captured Jilotzingo, set to worker; upgrade galley to caravel;

620 AD (3) - Calakmul b. knight, set to knight; Tulum b. aqueduct, set to library; Rush Longbowman at Akwesasne; horseman destroys barb camp south of Akwesasne; JT enslaves Aztec Jaguar Warrior; Coyotepec captured w/ 4 Aztec settlers (8 workers);

630 AD (4) - CI b. marketplace, set to Copernicus' Observatory (29 turns); Palenque b. knight, set to knight; Tikal b. trebuchet, set to knight; Allegheny b. library, set to barracks; Quirigua b. knight, set to knight; Akwesasne b. longbowman, set to worker; Tequixquiac captured (1 worker); Zitlaltepec captured, set to worker; Redlined horseman gains 50g from goody-hut, but likely will be killed by Aztec archer next turn (too greedy);

640 AD (5) - Kaminaljuyu b. knight, set to knight; Piedras Negras b. knight, set to knight; IBT - lost Akwesasne to Aztec archer (lost offensive attack during my turn);

650 AD (6) - Forbidden Palace b. in Salamanca, set to library; Copan b. knight, set to knight; Dzibilchaltun b. marketplace, set to library; Tazumal b. worker, set to worker; Captured Tlapanaloya; Recaptured Akwesasne, Elite Horseman generates MGL (Blue-Quetzal-Macaw) - moving him near the front before creating an army of knights (MGL has a movement of 3 - I believe an army without units has a movement of 1);

660 AD (7) - WW hit hard, bumping luxuries 10%; Went ahead and built army w/ MGL, so we can have a chance at more MGL's w/ on-going war; Holy Cow! It happened. Elite horseman north of New CI generates MGL (Eighteen Rabbit);

670 AD (8) - Niagara Falls b. courthouse, set to pikeman; Palenque b. knight, set to knight; Yaxchilan b. knight, set to knight; DGI b. caravel, set to bank; Ake, b. aqueduct, set to library; Cozumel b. courthouse, set to library; New Copan b. worker, set to pikeman; 18 Rabbit b. army in New CI; Knight Army victorious during first attack on Tepetlaoxtoc; Tepetlaoxtoc captured; JT enslaves Aztec longbowman;

680 AD (9) - Maneuvers.

690 AD (10) - Bonampak b. knight, set to knight; Cattaraugus b. knight, set to knight; Quirigua b. knight, set to knight; Calakmul b. knight, set to knight; Piedras Negras b. knight, set to knight; Coba b. courthouse, set to library; Tlapanaloya deposed our governor; New Palenque b. worker, set to worker;

Hand-over Notes: WW is becoming an issue, but we can afford bumping luxuries another 10% or more. Because of our treachery, the Aztecs must be annhiliated. Using several workers to build roadways north, to lessen travel time. Several knights were just produced and "enroute" north (currently not under go-to orders). The FP was completed during my turns. We can also build the Heroic Epic, but next up can decide that location. The Aztecs are pumping out the Longbowmen. I've got a knight army w/ a few knights stacked outside of one Aztec town, ready to go. Also, there are some wounded knights northeast of New CI that failed trying to capture the Aztec town. Trebuchets are stacked, moving tow our northern most town. There are two knight laden caravels moving north along our western coast. Dropped off one knight to pop a GH, gaining a map. Just reload him and begin moving north again. Although the travel is an investment in turns, it may prve beneficial once they arrive into Aztec waters. An empty army is moving toward Jilotzingo from the west.

Aztecan-Mayan Front Line
http://home.comcast.net/~dojoboy/aztec_front.jpg

Roster:
Beamup
dojoboy (just played)
Serkhon (up!)
Blue Monkey (on deck)
frunobulax
Aoxomoxoa

:woohoo: Two armies! Gotta love that bit of PRNG goodness. Should fill the new one up ASAP. I also note we may have a problem. The Aztecs have Gunpowder! Hope they don't have Saltpeter hooked up, or this could get messy.

Two MGLs! :king: Way to go Dojoboy :goodjob:

I'll be able to play later tonight.

Okay, I didn't load an elite knight into that army. There was a promotion when it won it's first battle, but would it look like that?

...but would it look like that?

How do you mean?

How do you mean?

Well, it looks like I loaded an elite knight into the army. But, the army gained a promotion when it made an attack. I always thought the entire army was promoted, not individual units within the army.

Nope. The army doesn't itself have an experience level, so the only thing that can happen is that an individual unit is promoted.

I'm not really sure what happens next, though. It may be that it's now hard for the other Knights to get promoted, as the Elite will do most of the fighting. Or it may not because that distinction isn't made. I just don't know, though I'd like to.

It may be that it's now hard for the other Knights to get promoted, as the Elite will do most of the fighting.
It also makes me wonder how GL generation is affected by the elite unit being in an army.

It also makes me wonder how GL generation is affected by the elite unit being in an army.
Unfortunately that's straightforward. Elites in an army cannot generate MGLs.

The war is going smoothly at the moment and I'll post the turnlog and savefile when I complete all of the turns some time later today.

Due to Time contraints I only played 5 turns

Turn 1 700 AD
Copan Knight -> Knight
Allegheny Barracks -> Knight
Oil Springs Library ->Harbor
Centralia Worker -> Library
Kabah Courthouse-> Marketplace
We capture Teavo and two workers with no losses
We capture Ixtapaluca with no losses

IBT: Only one attack from the Iro but it manages to take out a full health knight in Ixt

Turn 2 710 AD
Salamanca Library -> Heroic Epic
Tikal Knight -> Knight
St Regis Worker -> Worker
Mayapan Marketplace -> Caravel
Cleaning up some of the remaining forces around Ixtapaluca and Teavo
Borders sighted across the sea.
Tlapanaloya is down to a single defender

Turn 3 720 AD
Palenque Knight -> Knight
Caravel sighting the borders sinks so we don't get to break out isolation (If we want to)

IBT We lose 3 Knights due to poor RNG

Turn 4 730 AD
Tulum Library -> Marketplace
Another Great Leader!

Turn 5 740 AD
Navigation Completes we start on Economics
Our People want to build The Pentagon
Yaxchilan Knight -> Knight
Quirigua Knight -> Knight
Peodras Negras Knight -> Knight
The resistance ends in both Ixtapaluca and Teavu
Jilotzingo Worker -> Library

115796
115795

Handover Notes: There hasn't been a huge problem with WW yet but It'll likely be coming up soon. Both Ixtapaluca and Teayo look like they'll flip if we remove and more troops. The Caravel in the west should be able to unload next turn after that you might want to send it exploring west. I'm not really sure what we should do with our newly acquired third army so I left if for you to move wherever.

115797

Downloaded the save. There's time for people to make comments before I play, which will be later tonight.

I can't wait any longer to get my grubby little hands in the mix. I'm taking my 10 turns in paradise now.

PreTurn/740 AD - Changed production in Akwesasne to Warrior (will free up Knight). Same in Zitlaltapec. Notice a lot of cities slipping too close to unhappiness; bumped entertainment up one notch to 40%. Noting our huge treasury, also bump science one notch up to 30%; we’ll now get Economics in 9 rather than 14 . After these two changes we still have an income of 47 gp.
750 AD - Lost Horseman near Tlapanalova to Archer attack. Took 2 Aztec archers to take down our wounded Knight at Huexotla . Teayo flips to Aztecs (we lose Army, ouch!).
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/4411/740adflip5wa.th.gif (http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=740adflip5wa.gif)

BUILDS: Copan knight =>knight. Calakmul knight=>knight. Akwesasne warrior=>worker. Zitlaltapec warrior=>temple. Tazumal worker=>barracks. Centralia production switched to Spearman and bought for 60 gp; aztec archer sneaking within 1 turn range; no garrison & noone in range to protect.

Attack continues against Tlapanalova. 3 Knights debark to attack Tlalmanalco. 3 Knights debark north of Jilotzingo near land bridge.


760 AD - Caravel (already in red) defeats attacking Aztec galley, then is sunk by Barbs.
BUILDS: Palenque Knight=>Temple. Kaminaljuyu Knight=>Courthouse. Knights Templar built in Cuello=>Barracks. Centralia Spearman=>Warrior.

Tlalmanoc loses a spearman; our knight is lost weakening their remaining spearman. We take Atzcapotzalco; set to build Pikeman. Our army attacks Huexotla, a second knight in it becomes elite, so I rename it “Northern Knights Army”. Elite Knight captures Huexotla (set to build Walls), renamed “Huex Knight” , makes a GL.
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/4420/760adhuexknight9oj.th.gif (http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=760adhuexknight9oj.gif)

Bought Pikemen to free Knights for offensive action: Tequixquiac (76 gp), Tepetlaoxtoc (88 gp), Niagra Falls (no garrison, 48 gp), New Copan (no garrison, 56 gp), Ixtapaluca (100 gp), Coyotepec (68 gp).

A lot of cities are already in or nearing disorder; I decide to take drastic action: Ake switches to & buys temple (144 gp); Allegheny buys coliseum (364 gp); Calakmul buys temple (192 gp); Cattaraugus buys coliseum (220 gp); Coba gets temple (100 gp); Copan = temple (184 gp); Cozumel = temple (96); DGI = coliseum (232); Dzibichaltun = temple (88); Ek Balam = coliseum(168); Grand River = coliseum (96) ; Kaminaljuyu = coliseum (966); Lagartero switch University to Coliseum (loss of 65 shields); Marlboro Country buys coliseum (296); Cuello, Quirigua, & Uxmal (lose 4 shields) switched to temple. Tikal switched to coliseum. Uaxatun switched university to coliseum (lose 42 shields).
Switch entertainment to 50%, science to 20% (Economics in 11).

770 AD - Centralia captured by Aztecs. Knight lost near Tlapanalova. Huexotla fends off our attacks but defenders are redlined.

Niagra Falls rioting, give entertainer. Mauch Chunk rioting; give entertainer & swap courthouse build for temple. River Crossing rioting give entertainer; switch to temple. Lazapa rioting; entertainer & =>temple. New CI rioting entertainer + building temple. New Copan rioting entertainer + building temple.

BUILDS: Niagra Falls Pikeman=>aqueduct. Copan temple=>Knight. Grand River coliseum=>temple. Allegheny coliseum=>temple. Lagartero Coliseum=>temple. Cattaraugus riots but produces coliseum (which will restore)=>temple. Calakmul temple=>cathedral. DGI coliseum=>harbor. Kaminaljuyu coliseum=>harbor. Uaxactun coliseum=>temple. Ixtapaluca Pikeman=> temple. Coba=>colliseum. Dzibi =>colliseum. Uxmal temple=>aqueduct. Tepetlaoxtoc pikeman=>temple. Ake =>colliseum. Coyotepec pikeman=>walls. Tequixquiac pikeman=>walls. Marlboro=>temple. Ek Balam =>temple. Cozumel =>aqueduct. Xcalumkin Courthouse=>pikeman.

Aztecs build Leonardo’s in Tenochtitlan. I decide to make Peace because of unrest & need to build up forces along the front. (plan for it to be very temporary; give Theology & 800 gp, get Maps & gunpowder). GL used to make army at Ixtapaluca. With gunpowder 2 sources of saltpeter are revealed within our territory; moving quickly to exploit both.
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/9408/770saltpeter11fi.gif (http://imageshack.us)

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/5861/770saltpeter28sd.gif (http://imageshack.us)

780 AD - We Love The Great Instigator Days celebrated far and wide.
BUILDS: Mayapan Caravel=>aqueduct.
People build Palace addition. Many entertainers converted to taxmen/production. Coban switch to aqueduct.
Maneuvering troops to be prepared for resumption of hostilities.

790 AD - Science to 30%. Celebrations end. Aztecs building Sistine Chapel.
BUILDS: Quirigua =>musketman. Oil Springs . =>Barracks. New Palenque worker=>courthouse.

800 AD - BUILDS: Palenque temple=>knight.
Another Palace addition. New Tikal founded. horseman upgraded to knight at Grand River.

810 AD - Caravel attacked by two barb galleys; defeats them and gains Elite status.
BUILDS: Tikal colliseum=>musketman. Yaxchilan knight=>knight. Bonampak knight=>settler (it has outgrown available space).

Knights Templar produce crusader. Palace extension built. Demand removal of longbow men, Aztecs cave.
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1926/810aztecincursion7mw.th.gif (http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=810aztecincursion7mw.gif)

820 AD - BUILDS: Copan knight=>bank. Mauch Chunk temple=>courthouse. Cuello temple=>barracks. St Regis worker=>walls.

Atzcapotzalco flips, we lose trebuchets.
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/4226/820aztecflip2bu.th.gif (http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=820aztecflip2bu.gif)

830 AD - Aztecs warn us to leave territory they regained, which we were already doing. Learn Economics; go for Chemistry (on the way to Metallurgy).
BUILDS: Lagarto temple=>barracks. Cattaraugus =>harbor. Quirigua musketman=>knight.

840 AD - BUILDS: Salamanca builds Heroic Epic=>barracks. Palenque Knight=>Knight. Grand River temple=>musketman. Allegheny temple=>knight. Oil Springs barracks=>courthouse. Piedras Negras knight=>knight.

Some units’ moves left undone since I don’t know how frunobulax will want to play from this point.

Recap: This was a hard session. When I play alone I strive to build a strong cultural position from the start, so the flips caught me by surprise. Some may disagree with my spending the treasury; my philosophy is that ‘s why it’s there, and we needed to regain control to keep building for the war. The temporary peace I saw as necessary because our attack was losing steam; our best armies were tied up defending cities our other forces hadn’t reached yet, and the Aztecs were about to exploit that & our WW to turn the tide. I exploited the peace negotiations to gain us parity vis. Gunpowder. From what I can see, we will rejoin combat in a stronger domestic position. If I’ve shot our collective foot, I apologize, and hope you will teach me better in the kindest way possible.

Roster:
Beamup
dojoboy
Serkhon
Blue Monkey (just played)
frunobulax (up!)
Aoxomoxoa (on deck)

Here’s the save:115822

I don't know why those stupid black boxws show up when I use ImageShack. The images were last handled in GraphicConverter.

Observations:
Concur with all the buys, temporary peace seems reasonable - but far from necessary. I shadowed much of your turns, and the Aztecs were nowhere near "turning the tide," or even causing us major problems. Particularly if we went fully offensive instead of worrying about defending captured cities - the best defense here is to cut down their Longbows in the open field as they try to get past our Knights to attack empty cities.

The Aztecs do not have any Saltpeter, which is comforting.

Losing the Army and Trebuchets is why you never leave more than minimal, disposable units in captured cities.

Entertainment is way too high. It should've been turned down drastically as soon as peace was signed.

We should try and get the old Iro peninsula settled to keep the barbs from popping up there so much. The small island south of there is also a prime city site - the farthest N corner is ideal. The other two small islands can wait.

We need to send a Caravel across the ocean NOW. We want to make contact ASAP!

Our southern cities have no need for garrisons. Those units should be upgraded and sent north to the front where they can actually become useful. We certainly shouldn't be wasting elite units on garrison duty in unthreatened towns (see River Crossing for an example).

With an empire this size, we are definitely going to want to go Communist at the earliest opportunity. We're losing nearly a third of our income, and a corresponding proportion of our production, to corruption.

The Pike N of Grand River can be redeployed due to our border expansion in the area, as he is no longer needed for barb suppression. The small peninsula near Niagara Falls has been left uncovered! That's an open invitation for a huge pile of barbs to pop up right in our heartland and go on a rampage. A unit must be deployed there, and remain there until Niagara Falls can expand its border to keep that tile out of the fog.

While the Aztecs don't seem to be building Horsemen much, their source of Horses is in easy reach by Atzcapsomething. We should take that out shortly after redeclaring war. For which we don't need to wait all that long.

Tlalmanalco may be a slightly harder nut to crack, as they are about to hook up a source of Iron there. If they manage to get a Harbor there, that would be catastrophic. Even one turn of access to Iron, and Knights and Pikemen would pop up all over their empire. Might even be worth a one-turn declaration of war to take out that Worker.

Looking at their territory, this shouldn't be that bad. Their core cities are all in the south, in easy reach. We can break their back pretty quickly.

... if we went fully offensive instead of worrying about defending captured cities - the best defense here is to cut down their Longbows in the open field as they try to get past our Knights to attack empty cities. ... Losing the Army and Trebuchets is why you never leave more than minimal, disposable units in captured cities. Yes, I tend to play a lot more conservatively than other players. :scan: I need to remind myself that if they retake the city, they're only paying dearly for what was theirs to begin with, wereas we stand only to gain when fighting on their territory.
. The Aztecs do not have any Saltpeter, which is comforting. Which is all the more reason to re-engage them now.:mischief:
Entertainment is way too high. It should've been turned down drastically as soon as peace was signed. ...Our southern cities have no need for garrisons. Both things I would normally think of, if I wasn't playing too far past my bedtime.:sleep:No excuses, just agreeing with you.:wallbash:
... source of Horses ... by Atzcapsomething. We should take that out shortly after redeclaring war. ...Tlalmanalco ... they are about to hook up a source of Iron there. ... Their core cities are all in the south, in easy reach. We can break their back pretty quickly. One of the things I hope I did right was to set up our troops for a strike right into their heartland; Tenochtitlan is only one city away from the front lines as well.:borg:

A couple of thoughts.

How about razing? We have so little culture developed, easy to see many of these towns flipping on us.

I have a feeling this war is going to have this same rhythm, take a a few towns then make peace. Rearm after a few turns then move back in. It takes us 3 times as long to get a knight unit to the front. The Aztecs are replacing their units much faster.

Also, shouldn't we be going after Smith's Trading Co.?

Aoxo

How about razing? We have so little culture developed, easy to see many of these towns flipping on us.
Shouldn't be a big deal. The Aztecs don't have that much more culture than we do. It'll be easier to just retake towns that flip.

I have a feeling this war is going to have this same rhythm, take a a few towns then make peace. Rearm after a few turns then move back in. It takes us 3 times as long to get a knight unit to the front. The Aztecs are replacing their units much faster.
I have a feeling that if we make one good, hard, push, they'll be out of it and we can mop up at our leisure. Between our technological (OK, resource) superiority, our Armies, and our larger army, we should be able to roll them up.

Also, shouldn't we be going after Smith's Trading Co.?
Kind of defeats the whole purpose of getting Economics if we don't. But we likely have some time.

Frunbloax- use the 'hotlink to forums' thing on imageshack.

...I shadowed much of your turnsI've been thnking about that since this morning. Does that mean you play the game in parallel, to see how the outcome of my choices differ from yours? I never thought of doing that. It would help to learn a lot.

Have grabbed save - will play as soon as I can, but am working Saturday and Sunday this weekend, so may not get chance to finish and post till this time tomorrow (Sunday).

Chichen Itza is 3 turns (or less) from finishing Copernicus's Observatory.

Thoughts about shifting that to Smith's? That can have a huge economic boost for us.

Aoxo

Are we ahead enough in research to not lose by switching? I note the Aztecs got Gunpowder before we did.

Chichen Itza is 3 turns (or less) from finishing Copernicus's Observatory.

Thoughts about shifting that to Smith's? That can have a huge economic boost for us.

Aoxo

FWIW, I much prefer the science bonus from Copernicus's Observatory. If we switch to Communism, gpt will be much better. Plus, we can likely grab Smith's as well, just start it after CO finishes.

I've been thnking about that since this morning. Does that mean you play the game in parallel, to see how the outcome of my choices differ from yours? I never thought of doing that. It would help to learn a lot.
Yep. That's exactly what I do. It tends to be highly illuminating.

FWIW, I much prefer the science bonus from Copernicus's Observatory. If we switch to Communism, gpt will be much better. Plus, we can likely grab Smith's as well, just start it after CO finishes.
I concur. Note, in particular, that nobody's built the Sistine Chapel yet. It's highly unlikely anybody will get to Economics (or Navigation, for that matter) before we build Smith's (and Magellan?)

One might even conclude from that fact that we appear to be ahead of the other continent(s) in tech - certainly we are along that branch.

Frunbloax- use the 'hotlink to forums' thing on imageshack.

What? Why?

The Mac Mayaniacs Age of Discovery

Just basic notes this time as I am very busy with work, so only key events included - but lots o' screenies.


Turn 0 - 840AD

Lowered luxury to 30%, Chemistry now in 6; 213 + 47gpt.
Palenque building Smith's Trading Co. in 30


Turn 1 - 850AD

Horseman defeated by Barbs SW of Akwesasne - now sending a few Knights to patrol 'the wilds' down there.


Turn 2 - 860AD

Nothing of note.


Turn 3 - 870AD

We build Copernicus' Observatory in CI :)
CI now building University to capitalize on this scientific bonus.

http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ianstonehouse/c3c/copernicus.jpg

We also made contact with the SPANISH - they only have Monarchy to trade.

http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ianstonehouse/c3c/spain870ad.jpg


Turn 4 - 880AD

Built embassy with Spain in Madrid. They have 1 x iron, 1 x horse, 1 x luxury.


Turn 5 - 890AD

Made contact with the ENGLISH. They too only have Monarchy to trade. Built embassy with them in London.
The English do not have iron or horses, and only have one luxury (wine).

http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ianstonehouse/c3c/english890ad.jpg


Turn 6 - 900AD

We discover CHEMISTRY - now researching MUSIC THEORY.... I know this might not be a popular choice but in view of the various overthrows of captured cities, as well as levels of unhappiness in some cities, I feel it prudent to aim to build the JS BACH GW (and increase our cultural standing). Salamanca now on a Palace prebuild to this end (adjusted production/worker assignments in Kabah and Tulum to increase Salamanca's production by 2 shields).
Note: believe Aztecs will have SISTINE in 10 or so turns ;)

We make contact with the DUTCH

http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ianstonehouse/c3c/dutch900ad.jpg


Turn 7 - 910AD

Embassy built with Dutch - they have NO iron or horses.


Turn 8 - 920AD

Tikal building Magellan's Voyage (in 25)

Crux founded.

http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ianstonehouse/c3c/crux920ad.jpg


Made contact with the PORTUGESE - who are at WAR with SPAIN!
Built embassy with Portugal - they have iron and horses and three lux.

http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ianstonehouse/c3c/portugal920ad.jpg


Turn 9 - 930AD

Nothing much happened...


Turn 10 - 940AD

Netherlands and Celts sign peace treaty (Celts only nation we haven't made contact with).
MUSIC THEORY discovered, now researching METALLURGY (in 7).
Salamanca switched from Palace prebuild and is now building JS BACH (in 25)
Destroy Barb camp far SW of Akwesasne

Huexotla ovethrow our governor and pledge allegiance to Aztecs :(

http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ianstonehouse/c3c/huexotla940ad.gif


HANDOVER NOTES:
there are still 2 armies and various knights in the vicinity of Huexotla who have yet to be moved (see screenshot below).
I wasn't sure if we should go to war on this overthrow of Huexotla issue, or remove our forces out of
Aztec territory and delay...? Aoxomoxoa, everyone, your thoughts!?
Note that I haven't traded MAPS with any of the nations we have made contact with yet - so they haven't contacted Aztecs yet either (I think!)

We have 3 GW on the go:
Tikal - Magellans Voyage - due in 21
Palenque - Smiths Trading - due in 20
Salamanca - JS BAch - due in 24

2 techs discovered - Chemistry and Music Theory. One city (Crux) founded. Made contact with 4 nations (Spanish, English, Dutch and Portugese - only Celts to find!)

We are - I believe - top in research, and are definitely top in land area, population and VPs
[Mayaniacs 1684 VP, Aztecs 1232 VP, Portugese 841 VP]

Looking good :king:

http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/ianstonehouse/c3c/940ad.jpg
940AD


ROSTER:
Beamup (on deck)
dojoboy
Serkhon
Blue Monkey
frunobulax (just finished)
Aoxomoxoa (up!)

Looks to me like we should launch our attack now. 40 Knights and three Armies, with a steady stream of reinforcements (if we start building useful units again), should overwhelm the Aztecs handily. Remember to crush Tlalmanalco immediately to prevent them from hooking up their Iron!!!

We can trade with Portugal for three luxuries - we can get their three luxuries (and a map swap) for our three and Music Theory - IMO it's unlikely they can beat us to JS Bach given our head start (no way they're pumping 25 spt). With those luxuries in hand, that's 8 more happy faces in every city, which will let us turn off entertainment and give us a very good buffer against WW. We will also be able to research at max rate while making a profit.

That will also make most of the happiness builds in progress superflous. Just on luxuries, we'll be able to sustain size 14 cities (assuming marketplaces). 16 with Bach. With a bit of entertainment slider for backup as needed, Temples, Colosseums, and Cathedrals are entirely unnecessary.

Also take note that trading maps doesn't give them contact with the Aztecs. That won't happen unless we actually trade contacts (requires Printing Press, which I don't think we should waste time on) or one of them gets Navigation. Since nobody else even has Astronomy, that's not going to happen until well after the Aztecs are gone. Hence we should trade our map around for all their gold and maps - that should also help us contact the Celts.

Also, why are we wasting time and shields building Musketmen? They are a very poor choice under any circumstances, and are certainly useless to us now. Those should all be Knights, not Musketmen.

Finally, I observe that we've got an awful lot of cities building Temples without Marketplaces. Marketplaces are MUCH better for happiness, and Libraries are the building of choice for culture. Temples should never be built before them.

What? Why?

I think madviking meant to direct that at Blue Monkey, who'd complained about some black boxes showing up on his screenshots.

Haven't looked at the save yet, but what he said. ;)

We do need to assimilate the Aztecs before they can communicate w/ our other rivals, and before they can make contact themselves. There is time, but I believe the most important part of Beamup's analysis is:

Looks to me like we should launch our attack now.

I had another thought - we're not far from Military Tradition. If we collect newly-produced Knights at forward Barracks, and build up a decent treasury, then when we take Tenoch (with Leo's), we can do a mass upgrade and clean up with Cavs.

Okay, I'm 6 turns into this set and your idea makes very much sense. The aztecs just had too many reinforcements pouring out of theNorthern cities for our Knights and armies to keep up with. They had at least 18 troops near Huexactl after I took that city. You can't put the armies into the city to replenish HP's, so they are stuck out in the open.

Now we can catch our breath, make a huge jump income, then make a huge jump in military strength as well as getting more troops to the front.

Aoxo

Re temple builds: during my turn at bat I set to build a few temples, rushing some of them to quickly turn around a bad disorder problem; not as effective as markets for happiness or libraries for culture but I needed a quick bump of both in a lot of cities simultaneously. I wasn't advocating it as a long-term preference.

re contact with aztecs: can't we get a clue by selecting Aztecs in the diplomacy screen and seeing who is at peace with them (peace/war=contact, no line=no contact)?

re war with Aztecs: It's my subjective impression that the Aztecs pump out units like crazy; we need to keep our assault on the move while simultaneously securing captured cities from rebellion. I'm not sure specifically how to do this at present; we need a large force, strong culture, high production, and happiness.

Re temple builds: during my turn at bat I set to build a few temples, rushing some of them to quickly turn around a bad disorder problem; not as effective as markets for happiness or libraries for culture but I needed a quick bump of both in a lot of cities simultaneously. I wasn't advocating it as a long-term preference.
Why worry about the culture? Only a couple of the cities building temples can benefit from it at all AFAICT. Our civ's overall culture isn't really an issue unless we want to wait 50-100 turns before going back to war. They just won't have time to notably affect the culture ratio. Competing with the Temple of Artemis just is not in the cards.

re contact with aztecs: can't we get a clue by selecting Aztecs in the diplomacy screen and seeing who is at peace with them (peace/war=contact, no line=no contact)?
Good point.

re war with Aztecs: It's my subjective impression that the Aztecs pump out units like crazy; we need to keep our assault on the move while simultaneously securing captured cities from rebellion. I'm not sure specifically how to do this at present; we need a large force, strong culture, high production, and happiness.
What's going on is more that they spent the entire peacetime building units nonstop, I think. We just have to grind down all those new longbows. The early phase of the war will be more about taking out their units to wear down their army - a focus on sweeping up the cities comes a bit later.

And the war should be easier than that, I think. We already have most of the force we need to take them out, so long as we use it tactically to make sure we're attacking Longbows a lot more often than they're attacking us. As for culture, the best solution to culture flips is to take out the next layer of cities so that there are no longer Aztec tiles surrounding them. Greatly cuts down the odds. A few cities will likely flip, yeah, but we can just recapture them.

So of your needs:
- Large force: check!
- Strong culture: as good as it's going to get
- High production: check!
- Happiness: as soon as we trade with Portugal for those luxuries, check!

The tactics I envision for the early war go something like this. Stack most of our Knights under the armies. Have several more behind the armies, out of Longbow reach. The AI will send all its troops after the lone Knights because it won't want to take on the armies - and we take them out by the score as they try to bypass the big stacks.

As of this moment (6 turns in), I have taken Tlalamanaco, Teayo and Tlapanoya and destroyed that new city just to the south of Tlalamanco. I did lose one army, but created another. So we still have 3 armies. We have traded for 4 lux's from the Portugal/Celts, and we have also made a landing with a settler there and have a town created. The increased luxury has allowed me to crank the ent slider down to 0 and we have a big surplus going on now. Will finish my 4 turns later today after work and then post.

Aoxo

We have traded for 4 lux's from the Portugal/Celts, and we have also made a landing with a settler there and have a town created. The increased luxury has allowed me to crank the ent slider down to 0 and we have a big surplus going on now.
Sounds good. I'm particularly pleased to see that 4th luxury. With our now 7 luxuries, that's 16 happy faces per city, allowing us to support size 18. Bach will up that to 20, without considering Temples/Colossea/Cathedrals! Talk about your major buffers against WW. I like it. :D

It may have taken us a while, but we are definitely making good use of being the first to make contact between the continents. Given the current tech situation and the fact that we should be MUCH bigger than any of the other civs after this war is done, I think we've probably got a Space Race victory almost sewn up already! I wouldn't be terribly surprised if we managed to launch before anybody else makes the Modern era. Of course, there are other victory options... but I don't see us losing this at this point unless we really screw up by the numbers.

Without a doubt, i messed up in not getting those lux's earlier in the turns.

I still think that at our current levels, especially based on how long it takes to get troops to the front, in war with the aztecs we are in a situation where we can gain 10 yards, or go on and gain 20 yards only to lose 10 back during their turn.

I certainly would not have been able to hold on to Tlapanoya had not I got peace declared. If we go along with the strat of upgrading Knights to Calvary, I recommend getting a barracks (for upgrading) built up somewhere along the front lines (probably needs to be rushed). IIRC we were at about +395 gold at a 40% science/0% ent level with just about every city filled with with happy citizens.

The Celts and the Portugeuse are the big players to the east, and neither of them are as big as the Aztecs are now. Obviously the Aztecs are resource poor, but even now they are bigger citywise/areawise as any of the other civs.

Aoxo

I still think that at our current levels, especially based on how long it takes to get troops to the front, in war with the aztecs we are in a situation where we can gain 10 yards, or go on and gain 20 yards only to lose 10 back during their turn.
I'd extend that analogy, though. We can gain 10 yards, then 10 on the next play, or we can gain 20, lose 10, and then gain 25 on the next play because we've chewed up more of their Longbows. It'll definitely be interesting to see how it plays out. My personal inclination is to be much too defensive, so I try to compensate for that by being more agressive than I naturally am... but am I taking that too far here? :crazyeye:

I certainly would not have been able to hold on to Tlapanoya had not I got peace declared. If we go along with the strat of upgrading Knights to Calvary, I recommend getting a barracks (for upgrading) built up somewhere along the front lines (probably needs to be rushed). IIRC we were at about +395 gold at a 40% science/0% ent level with just about every city filled with with happy citizens.
We've redeclared peace again? (Not that that's bad - I certainly have nothing against breaking peace treaties right and left to gain a tactical advantage - I just want to be clear.)

Also, how close are we to MilTrad? I expect that will govern a good bit of my planning.

I'd extend that analogy, though. We can gain 10 yards, then 10 on the next play, or we can gain 20, lose 10, and then gain 25 on the next play because we've chewed up more of their Longbows. It'll definitely be interesting to see how it plays out. My personal inclination is to be much too defensive, so I try to compensate for that by being more agressive than I naturally am... but am I taking that too far here? :crazyeye:

I felt like 'we' (the whole team) we're being aggressive, but I'd take a city, have half damaged Knights and the army, and see a TON of longbowman streaming into position. So I'd pick off as many of those as i could, and more streamed down to replace them. So I'd back into friendly territory to regain HP's, and found myself trying to get peace before losing the ground I had gained there. I was very wary of having much in the cities themselves due to flipping, so that made the just conquered cities doubly vulnerable.

We've redeclared peace again? (Not that that's bad - I certainly have nothing against breaking peace treaties right and left to gain a tactical advantage - I just want to be clear.)

Yes, currently we are at peace.

Also, how close are we to MilTrad? I expect that will govern a good bit of my planning.

3 turns IIRC to finish Metallurgy, then we are into MilTrad.

Aoxo

Turn One - 950 AD - Refused to leave Aztec land, so we're at war again. Man have they got the troops pouring out of the north. Lost two Knights including the one south on the western continent area to that pesky Longbowman. Took Huexotla back. Inflicted kills on many Longbowman, Destroyed the new city just west of Tlalmanalco. Adjusted sliders for immediate WW effects.

Turn Two - 960 AD - Lost a Knight and another redlined at Tlalamanco. Backed off to allow reserves to join in. Killed various troops out in the open, but didn't assault any cities.

Turn Three - 970 AD - Captured Teayo and Tlapanoya. Scrambling to keep army near Huexatla alive. Troops mustering hard in that neighborhood. Killed some more troops including a settler/spearman that landed in the west south of Centrailia.

Turn Four - 980 AD - Captured Tlamanco. Killed a few more loose troops. Still trying to keep that army alive, but I think it's a lost cause, but the good news is, we got another army!

Turn 5 - 990 AD Lost the army and 2 3 other knights. Made peace with Aztecs and kept the cities we captured. Got monarchy (woop-de-doo) and 16 gold (woop-de-do) for the peace. Traded Theology to the Dutch for 125 gold (their treasury).

Turn 6 - 1000 AD - Reset sliders for peacetime (and to build up treasury). Dutch have started Sistine's Chapel. Landed a settler onto the other continent. Not much space. Traded for wines, dyes, silk from Portugal, traded Ivory from Celts. Founded New Yaxchilan on the Eastern Continent.

Turn 7 - 1010 AD - Nothing of consequence (finally).

Turn 8 - 1020 AD - Nothing of consequence.

Turn 9 - 1030 AD - Told the Aztecs to get off our land. Strangely they are still furious with us. Celts and Portugal start JS Bach's

Turn 10 - 1040 AD - Founded New Bonampak. Founded New Lagotero. The Dutch will trade incense/20g/2gpt for banking. I'll leave it for you to decide whether that's a good deal or not. 5 turns till MilTrad. Looks like the stinky aztecs snuck another city in by that Iron! Bastages!

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Aoxo

Got it. Will take a closer look and possibly micro now, play tomorrow afternoon/evening (I hope).

Looks very interesting. Great job on finally seeing a game in [civ3mac].

Preturn checkup:

By boosting research to 60%, we get MT in 3 turns (min time) at a profit. I choose to get MT first, and worry about cash for upgrades second.

I sign RoPs all around for maps and gold. We might as well profit from them in terms of maps, gold, and freedom - they certainly can't move through our territory for a while! I also observe a reassuring tech lead.

We have little unhappiness. Exceptions: Salamanca, River Crossing, Mauch Chunk (switched to Marketplace). A few others are close. Salamanca and River Crossing will need Marketplaces next. But from our current situation, we have little need for that last luxury. I'll keep it in mind for later WW, though.

New Bonampak is building a Longbowman for no readily apparent reason. Swapped to Courthouse.

Chichen Itza is building the Sistine Chapel? This is pointless, there is no chance whatsoever we'll get it first given how far behind on it we are. The Aztecs are the best candidate to pull it anyway, and we'll just take it away. Swapped to Bank.

Various other cities swapped to urgent Courthouses or away from military without Barracks.

I note that Bonampak needs its forests cleared away so it can grow again.

Units in garrisons awakened and moved towards the front. My basic game plan is to wait 3 turns for MT, while gathering Knights at barracks - Tazumal especially is well situated. Then I will upgrade as many of them as I can to Cavs and launch the next assault once they reach the border. I count 15 units outside of Huexotla, which will mostly be exterminated in the first turn. Should take a big bite out of their army.

I'm also curious as to the thinking behind New Yax. I don't see what this city is supposed to gain us, so obviously I'm missing something. Anyone care to enlighten me?

P.S. and complete tangent: Does anybody else read The Order of the Stick? (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript)

Preturn checkup:

Units in garrisons awakened and moved towards the front. My basic game plan is to wait 3 turns for MT, while gathering Knights at barracks - Tazumal especially is well situated. Then I will upgrade as many of them as I can to Cavs and launch the next assault once they reach the border. I count 15 units outside of Huexotla, which will mostly be exterminated in the first turn. Should take a big bite out of their army.

Watch out for the massive amount of reserves they seem to bring along. Remember, Tnochtilan has Leonardo's. Need that for the upgrades.

I'm also curious as to the thinking behind New Yax. I don't see what this city is supposed to gain us, so obviously I'm missing something. Anyone care to enlighten me?

A nice vacation spot? :crazyeye:



P.S. and complete tangent: Does anybody else read The Order of the Stick? (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript)

No, but that was cute.

Need that for the upgrades.
Want, not need. Looks ATM more like we'll want the Cavs before we get there, so I don't see much option.

OK, looks like I didn't manage to play last night. Will try to get it done today.

Some unsolicited advice. It might make sense to make a move now on Aztecs with the knights (esp. the knight armies) you have and take Tenochticlan ASAP. Since Huexotla is currently surrounded on all sides, the culture pressure for it flipping is currently pretty high. And since it makes such a dandy take-off point for driving to Tenochtictlan, it would be a shame to lose it. You might want to consider a raze and replace strategy, since you can continue to pump out settlers at a pretty good clip, and that saves you the trouble of having to leave troops on garrison duty. You can take Tenochticlan in one or two turns, use Leo's for a mass upgrade to cavs, and then sweep the Aztec off the planet. Remember, if you want good relations with the guys across the sea, you'll never want them to even know that the Aztec once existed.

Enjoy.

Playing now. Will post later - but the war is going quite well, aside from a bunch of ex-Aztec cities that I can't keep from either rioting or starving. Oh well, let them riot or starve if they must, I'm certainly not stopping now!

Note: I've really come to dislike playing on my iBook, due to the small screen and need for a modifier for Fkeys and number pad. But I can't use my new iMac at work. ;)

Interturn: More Knights produced and started. Aztecs complete the Sistine Chapel - it seems my prediction was correct and we can just capture it. They then start on Magellan's Voyage - UH OH. They need to be dropped quickly before they can get overseas! Dutch swap from Sistine to Bach, as do the Celts.

1050 AD (1): Due to the realization that the Aztecs somehow got to Navigation really fast, I decide that the assault needs to go in now. The Cavs can wait - Knights are more than capable of taking out all their current units anyway. Rear-area Knights headed for Tazumal for upgrading in 2 turns. My battle plan is to push our Knights on a concentrated front in the west, letting the soon-to-come Cavs to roll up the east coast.

War is redeclared. We raze Coatepec for no losses, though a Knight is redlined doing it. 4 Knights and 1 Elite Horseman are headed for Centralia via Tultitlan. Elite Archer slain to the south.

http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/4976/coatepec8dh.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

11 Longbows and 1 Spearman are slain in the opening assault on the front lines. 1 Worker captured. 1 Knight lost in an insanely bad run of luck. I'm keeping our Armies in position to screen most of our Knights, since the AI doesn't like to attack armies. 7 visible Longbows remain at the front. 2 redlined Knights are exposed and will likely die, but I'll take a 4:1 exchange rate. They can't sustain that for long, I don't think.

WW spikes hugely - likely residual from the last war. I trade for the Incense, paying our WM and extra Iron (it's not like we need to worry about fighting them). Entertainment to 20% - that's the minimum that will keep Salamanca from rioting without a starvation diet. Why in the WORLD did we let it grow anywhere near that big without a Marketplace?!? At least the cities where we've built the essential infrastructure are happy.

Interturn: England and Portugal stop fighting. 2 Longbows and a Galley down, 3 Knights lost. Teayo is rioting, can't be stopped by any means. Entire population set to Scientists. Palace expansion.

1060 AD (2): Inexplicably, much of the WW is gone??? Entertainment down to 10%. MilTrad now due in 1 at 50% science. There are now 9 Knights in Tazumal, with 2 more en route. 11 Cavs next turn!

14 Longbows and one Spearman are now in sight. 12 Longbows are slain for no losses. No Knights are currently exposed.

Current Tally
Our kills: 25 Longbows, 1 Spear, 1 Galley, 1 Worker.
Our losses: 4 Knights.

So far, so good. Cavs coming in next turn, will go into action in 2.

Interturn: 4 Longbows and 1 Spearman appear, 1 Caravel lost to an enemy Galley. MilTrad comes in, Physics in 4. Cavalry in production across the empire! Teayo flips, no losses because I didn't leave anything in the city.

1070 AD (3): 11 Knights upgraded for only 330 gold... I was expecting a lot more expense for some reason. Not sure why. Anyway, we've got a big treasury now, of which I spend a good chunk on Marketplaces and Courthouses. Disperse another barb camp on the Iro peninsula.

We lose a Horseman capturing Tultitlan. Since it was on a hill, I'm actually pleased with that low toll. On the way to Centralia.

At the main front, 5 Longbows and 2 Spearmen are slain for no losses.

Current Tally
Our kills: 30 Longbows, 3 Spearmen, 1 Galley, 1 Worker.
Our losses: 4 Knights, 1 Horseman.
1 city captured, 1 flipped.

Interturn: Worker is recaptured - I wasn't about to detail units to cover it as opposed to protecting Knights! 3 Longbows currently visible. Is that all they've got, or are more moving in from the back lines?

1080 AD (4): Lose 1 Knight to bad rolls before nailing a pair of Longbows. Teayo recaptured, killing 2 Spearmen for no losses. No enemy units in sight. Some of our Knights and two Armies take a time out for healing, our new Cavs and the rest of our Knights (supported by several Musketmen) are advancing on enemy cities.

Current Tally
Our kills: 32 Longbows, 5 Spearmen, 1 Galley.
Our losses: 5 Knights, 1 Horseman.
2 cities captured, 1 flipped.

Interturn: Lose a Musketman to a Longbow. Zitlaltepec flips! For crying out loud. A garrisoned city, in the middle of our territory, celebrating WLTKD!?! That's ridiculous - the Aztecs don't even have much more total culture than we do. 2 citizens out of 6 were Aztec, that was its only risk factor. Anyway, Tultitlan is rioting and can't be stopped. Spain starts Bach.

1090 AD (5): Healing and maneuvering forces, that's about it.

Interturn: 1 Longbow killed by a Musketman. They seem to be trying a counterattack with a couple Longbows and Spears! :lol:

1100 AD (6): 2 Spearmen and 2 Longbows nailed. Zitlaltepec recaptured by one of our new Cavs.

Compoala is defended by 3 Spearmen. Well, it was. Lost 1 Cav taking it.

Current Tally
Our kills: 35 Longbows, 10 Spearmen, 1 Galley.
Our losses: 5 Knights, 1 Horseman, 1 Cavalry.
4 cities captured, 2 flipped.

Interturn: 2 Longbows try to kill a Musketman on a hill. They fail. :D Physics comes in, research on ToG next as we have no real need for more seapower but Newton would be nice.

1110 AD (7): Calixtlahuaca captured, killing 3 Spearmen. 1 Spearman killed at Centralia. Texaxpan captured from 3 Spearmen. 4 Spearmen killed at Chicosomething, revealing a Longbow. No losses.

Current Tally
Our kills: 37 Longbows, 21 Spearmen, 1 Galley.
Our losses: 5 Knights, 1 Horseman, 1 Cavalry.
6 cities captured, 2 flipped.

Interturn: A Longbow redlines one of our Knights, but is slain. I really don't see many Aztec units moving around - maybe 4-5 per turn. They appear to have shot their bolt, and should roll up readily if we keep pushing hard.

1120 AD (8): We are up to 19 Knights and 22 Cavs. 3-4 Cavs are completing each turn and setting out for the front. It may be overkill, but we can always disband them to rush courthouses or whatever later.

3 Longbows slain in the field. "Gen. Aoxo" is slain facing a Spearman, but another Knight finishes up. 2 Longbows slain at Chico, 1 Cav actually loses to a defending Regular Longbow! Freakish. Still, we took the city and a Settler. 3 Spearmen and a Longbow die defending 6 Workers at Tlaxcala! 1 Spearman slain to take Centralia. Those Knights are now moving to deal with the Barbs on the peninsula.

WW kicks up a notch, so does the Entertainment slider. Some Marketplaces are rushed to deal with some major problem spots, but Salamanca is in major trouble. Not starving yet, but close. Quite a few entertainers in use, but I'm not about to give in to WW when they're on the ropes! The best solution to WW now is to end the war by wiping the continent clean! It's mainly our ex-Aztec cities anyway, we can let them riot if we must.

Current tally
Our kills: 44 Longbows, 25 Spearmen.
Our losses: 6 Knights, 1 Horseman, 2 Cavalry.
9 cities captured, 2 flipped.

Interturn: A Longbow dies trying to kill a Musketman. A Spearman comes out of nowhere to recapture Calix somehow??? Must have been very inattentive there. Ah well, there's an Army outside so they won't have it for long. Riots in former Azteca.

1130 AD (9): Recapture Calix from 2 Spearmen. 1 Longbow slain in the field. 1 Spearman killed at Tula. Lots of healing.

Current tally
Our kills: 46 Longbows, 28 Spearmen.
Our losses: 1 Horseman, 6 Knights, 2 Cavalry.
9 cities captured, 2 flipped.

Interturn: A whole pile of Settler pairs is headed for Atzcap for some reason. Smith's completes. Magellan completes.

1140 AD (10): Tula captured from 2 spears. 1 Cav lost at Atzcap, 1 Longbow slain outside.

Current tally
Our kills: 47 Longbows, 30 Spearmen.
Our losses: 1 Horseman, 6 Knights, 3 Cavalry.
10 cities captured, 2 flipped.

Handoff notes:
We have substantial forces in place to assault Aztcap and Tenoch, but note the stack of Spears and Settlers (with a couple Longbows) outside Aztcap - that might not be pretty. Maybe they'll be obliging and leave the city?

The Aztecs have 11 cities left, 2 under threat. They only have 3 core cities left unthreatened - the other 6 are marginal in the tundra. Given that I took 10 cities during my turns and the Aztec military is pretty much gassed, dojoboy should be able to finish this - or very nearly, anyway. Just remain resolute and let the captured cities riot if needed. Don't give in to WW until they are completely destroyed!

We currently have 18 Knights and 22 Cavs. That's probably adequate so military production can maybe be turned off - I leave that call to dojoboy.

Pics of the current front are below.

Roster:
Beamup (just played)
dojoboy (up!)
Serkhon (on deck)
Blue Monkey
Frunobolax
Aoxomoxoa

http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/7638/easternfront6hc.th.jpg (http://img475.imageshack.us/my.php?image=easternfront6hc.jpg)

http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/8478/westernfront9av.th.jpg (http://img475.imageshack.us/my.php?image=westernfront9av.jpg)

I will assume it was because Salamanca was busy building the Forbidden Palace for many turns.

Got it!

Beamup, is your military advisor available? :)

About the muskets attacking the longbows, the AI sometimes loses their head when losing and just tries to counterattack with anything they got, as long as its attack is +1 your units defense.;)

I will assume it was because Salamanca was busy building the Forbidden Palace for many turns.
Yeah, but then it started on other things - Bach's right now, for example. There was ample opportunity.

Beamup, is your military advisor available?
Sure is. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=19556) It is, in fact, a whole set. Quite a nice one, too.

About the muskets attacking the longbows, the AI sometimes loses their head when losing and just tries to counterattack with anything they got, as long as its attack is +1 your units defense.
It was longbows attacking fortified muskets on a hill - Monty doesn't have any resources at all. :D Their attack was no higher than our defense.

Lurker comment: Can you get any towns for peace? If so, that could speed up the conquest just a bit (since you need to get rid of them fast - and since you don't care about your rep with them.)

Lurker comment: Can you get any towns for peace? If so, that could speed up the conquest just a bit (since you need to get rid of them fast - and since you don't care about your rep with them.)

The race right now is to eliminate aztecs before there is any contact with the other 5 civ's on the other continent.

Played a few turns on Beamup's save. As a heads up to Dojoboy, watch out for settler/spears on boats trying to get a foothold back on the western landmass.

I'd start moving ships toward that west coast to sink any aztec vessels, just about the time we think there gone.. up pops another city out of the blue.

Aoxo

Bear w/ me guys. I'll get this in within the time frame, just not as quick as we've been moving. I've a plate full, but I hope to play tonight after 10:00 pm EST.

The race right now is to eliminate aztecs before there is any contact with the other 5 civ's on the other continent.


Aoxo

Exactly. Take some towns for free (disband if you have to) and immediately redeclare war. Your rep is already ruined - may as well use that to it's full advantage. But if you think that is too exploitive, then nevermind.

Rep? What rep? :lol:

Sounds like an interesting idea. Worth looking into, anyway. It might shave a few turns off - and those few turns might be the difference between them crossing the ocean and not.

I played only 5 turns. Got home late, and will get home even later tomorrow.

Pre-turn: Aztecs would not accept our envoy, no chance grab cities for peace atm. Rushed Caravel to defend against settlers at sea.

1150 AD (1) - Reached ToG, set to Magnetism; Grand Rive b. cav, set to cav; Lagartero b. cav, set to cav; Tlalmanalco b. caravel, set to caravel; Mayapan b. bank, set to university; Ek Balam b. library, set to musket; New Copan b. courthouse, set to library; rushed another caravel in Tlalmanalco; Elite Knight (Sir Beamup) generates MGL; build army w/ MGL; Change DGI to caravel to sink Aztec caravel nearby;

http://home.comcast.net/~dojoboy/sir_beamup.jpg

1160 AD (2) - CI b. cav, set to cav; Copan b. cav, set to cav; Calakmul b. cav, set to cav; DGI b. caravel, set to university; Cempoala flips; Tlalmanalco b. caravel, set to library; Aztec capital (Tenochtitlan) captured - 4 wonders; captured Atzcapotzalco (3 settlers); New Quirigua built; Switch Oil Springs to caravel to sink Aztec caravel;

1170 AD (3) - Cattaraugus b. cav, set to cav; Oil Springs b. caravel, set to cav; Cuello b. cav, set to cav; Aztecs will not give a single town for peace;

1180 AD (4) - Niagara Falls b. marketplace, set to cav; Yaxchilan b. university, set to cav; Uaxactuan b. bank set to cav; Tazumal b. cav, set to cav; Cempoala recaptured; new Aztec capital (Tzintzuntzen) captured; Tlatelolco captured;

1190 AD (5) - Researched Magnetism, enter Industrial Age - set to Steam Power; Quirigua b. cav, set to cav; Mauch Chunk b. library, set to bank; palace improvement; Teotihuacan captured; destroyed Anasazi camp;

Hand-over Notes: Printing Press is known by rivals across sea; Aztec caravels moving north along our west coast; Aztec caravel last seen north of the Dutch; Aztecs will still only give up one town for peace; Aztecs have 6 remaining townships; chose to research Stem Power for RRs; recommend bee-lining for Scientific Method (build ToE); I recommend we press on and eradicate the Aztecs; little time is left; Aztecs spotted at sea w/ caravels;

Beamup
dojoboy (just played)
Serkhon (up!)
Blue Monkey (on deck)
Frunobolax
Aoxomoxoa

user error

Got it I'll look at the situation in the morning and hopefully start sometime in the afternoon.

We have four major research priorities in the Industrial era.
- Industrialization
- Communism
- Scientific Method->ToE->Electronics->Hoover
- Replacable Parts

I would suggest researching them in that order, as our corruption and waste are currently so high that we might just get to SciMeth faster (or just about as fast, anyway) by detouring to Communism and revolting. Even with the long anarchy, I think it's necessary.

Beyond that, looks good. Aztecs should fall shortly. Actually, I played a couple turns. With the help of a treaty to grab that farthest NE town that our units can't reach as readily, they were wiped out in 1210 before contacting anyone.

We have four major research priorities in the Industrial era.
- Industrialization
- Communism
- Scientific Method->ToE->Electronics->Hoover
- Replacable Parts

I would suggest researching them in that order

Agree. Scientific Method->ToE->Electronics->Hoover is vital, as is switch to Communism.

We have four major research priorities in the Industrial era.
- Industrialization
- Communism
- Scientific Method->ToE->Electronics->Hoover
- Replacable Parts

I would suggest researching them in that order, as our corruption and waste are currently so high that we might just get to SciMeth faster (or just about as fast, anyway) by detouring to Communism and revolting. Even with the long anarchy, I think it's necessary.

Why Industrialization before Communism? It seems to me that we need to get the corruption of our empire under as much control as we possibly can, and communism is the only real ticket to that. We still have a window of time before ships come a sailing across the sea, and I feel we need as much of our landmass under our control as possible. Right now we have alot of open spaces that will be dozens of turns before borders expand.

Communism will produce more shields, and also make it possible to expand borders by rushing buildings with forced labor. We have plaenty of population to make that happen.

By then, we will be railroading like mad and then we can get the Industrialization happening.

Aoxo

That makes a good bit of sense, actually. I didn't actually consider that much at all - "Industrialization first" is almost a reflex for me.

But you make excellent points - Communism before Industrialization might well be a superior option. One other thing that needs to be considered, though, is the fact that Industrialization is only one tech away, while Communism requires Nationalism first.

We also want to fit Espionage in there at some point, for the SPHQ if nothing else (though I'm a big fan of spies, too).

I've run into a snag our luxury goods agreements with the Celts (1) and Portugeese (3) have run out in between turns and they want the Luxurys + Chemistry for any deal. I can either do it between turns hoping that they don't trade it to other civs or wait a turn and have unrest but trade it to all the civs. Any advice would be helpful.

I've run into a snag our luxury goods agreements with the Celts (1) and Portugeese (3) have run out in between turns and they want the Luxurys + Chemistry for any deal. I can either do it between turns hoping that they don't trade it to other civs or wait a turn and have unrest but trade it to all the civs. Any advice would be helpful.

Trade it to all civs, I say. Will they accept gold in replace of Chemistry? It is a bit back on the tech tree.