Who is the best leader for military expansion? Also, does -50% civic upkeep only include the cost for civics or does it include maintenance costs in cities?

Strangley My best milatary game was with Ghandi.

I'd say it's a tie between Ceaser, Washington, and Huayna Cupac.

Ceaser since he's ideal for sustaining a large empire, that of which a warmonger will often have, and also the Praetorian--that unit kicks butt.

Washington since he's ideal for making both a powerful economy and a large empire possible. The Navy Seals may not be the best, and come too late to be of any huge use, but this doesn't hurt him too much as his traits will give you a booming economy that will allow you to have a huge army.

Huayna Cupac because he allows you to form a large economy with his financial trait (A large economy is important to a good warmonger for countless reasons), and also a more powerful army with his aggressive trait. In fact if you ignore his bad and very shortly lived UU he's the ideal war-machine.

Quecha, bad UU? Are you kidding? Unless you are the Aztecs, an early quecha rush can utterly kill you.

Quechas on pillage and park cannot be dislodged easily by warriors or archers and those are the only early resourceless units you can build. Any improvements will be pillaged and you can only watch helplessly with horror as his axemen/swordsmen hordes build up and come for you. Aztecs may have a chance against this with the resource less jags but those can be raped by axemen.

-50% is civic upkeep. For city upkeep, the organized trait gives 1/2 price courthouses which makes lowering it far faster and easier.

Quecha, bad UU? Are you kidding? Unless you are the Aztecs, an early quecha rush can utterly kill you.

Quechas on pillage and park cannot be dislodged easily by warriors or archers and those are the only early resourceless units you can build. Any improvements will be pillaged and you can only watch helplessly with horror as his axemen/swordsmen hordes build up and come for you. Aztecs may have a chance against this with the resource less jags but those can be raped by axemen.

-50% is civic upkeep. For city upkeep, the organized trait gives 1/2 price courthouses which makes lowering it far faster and easier.

Sure it's a good UU if you're playing a small pangea map with everyone close to you, but I usually play a huge continents map, and the Incan's UU in this case is as useful as a pack of gum. I might be able to take out one or two civilizations before the Quecha technique runs out of use, but compared to Praetorian's and most of the other early UU's out there this is only small play or average--with the Praetorian I usually am able to secure an entire continent, or two, to myself before 1000AD.

Sure it's a good UU if you're playing a small pangea map with everyone close to you, but I usually play a huge continents map, and the Incan's UU in this case is as useful as a pack of gum. I might be able to take out one or two civilizations before the Quecha technique runs out of use, but compared to Praetorian's and most of the other early UU's out there this is only small play or average--with the Praetorian I usually am able to secure an entire continent, or two, to myself before 1000AD.
Oh, what a worthless unit... all it can do is take out two civilizations in the first 100 turns. What utter uselessness!

Say you are the Romans. That means someone else will be the Inca. And they might start next to you. And you might get owned. Better to be the Inca.

Oh, what a worthless unit... all it can do is take out two civilizations in the first 100 turns. What utter uselessness!

Say you are the Romans. That means someone else will be the Inca. And they might start next to you. And you might get owned. Better to be the Inca.

But anyone can easily destroy an Incan rush by getting a tech, or two, and horses or copper or iron--if you don't have any of these, then a rush of anything will hurt. I've always been able to fend off an Incan rush on multiplayer, and it only seems effective on gullible new players, or the AI. It also doesn't last very long to be very effective, and it happens so early that the Incans military 'golden age' will be quickly over. I've just never seen the use of them beyond a quick early rush that is unstable at best, and only works on players that aren't paying attention. (Try a game with a bunch of skilled players and you'll quickly see that an Incan rush won't do much.)

In retrospect you could repeat the Incan rush with any civilization using an early unit, just not as effective. It's still effective enough to work though. I've seen players conquer two or three civilizations (AI mostly) early with no UU, or do the same with the Incan.

In my eyes if an early UU can be very quickly replaced by a units or group of units that come only moments later, and that the technique of this early UU can be replicated with other units at around the time, then it's not a good UU.

lol theo dont make comments as if everyone is playing huge maps. At least specify it, especially when talking about the quechua, for which map size and sp vs mp does make a big difference in its usefulness

But anyone can easily destroy an Incan rush by getting a tech, or two, and horses or copper or iron--if you don't have any of these, then a rush of anything will hurt. I've always been able to fend off an Incan rush on multiplayer

But that's the point, a halfway-competent Incan rusher shouldn't LET you get those resources to begin with.

Besides, on single player, especially on high difficulties, they're excellent against barb archers and really saves you hammers that can be better spent elsewhere.

expansion? definitly kublai khan.
the culture bonus for expaansion and aggressive for warmongering
2. only civics

Quecha is not a BAD UU. That is wrong. Period.

Quecha, bad UU?
More correctly, it's a gambler's UU - if you start on isolated island Quechas are wasted, but if you're lucky they give you big boost. So in sense (if your goal is to win reliably), something like redcoats are better UU, because they're better in worst case scenario.

My vote is for Tokugawa. Aggressive is always good for warmongering, and Organized keeps me from going broke on my huge empire.

On top of those benefits, the Samurai UU is very well-suited to Middle Ages conquest, which is a great time to engage in serious warmongering. After the Samurai are obsolete, you can upgrade them ... to Infantry (or MechInf :eek:) with City Raider promotions!

Lastly, if I'm playing as Tokugawa, then I never have to worry about playing against Tokugawa. Since Tokugawa is one of the most sneaky, back-stabbing, pain-in-the-buttocks AI leaders, removing him from the competition is always a good thing.

i agree with tokugawa and ceaser

I vote Toku for reasons stated. My personal fav, too, in Civ II (even though it didn't matter, I just liked green city names), Civ III, and now Civ IV!

I'd say Catherine or Caesar.


Catherine - Creative means you win the early land-grab. Financial means you win the tech race. Cossacks means you have one of the most powerful UUs in the game :D

Caesar - One word: Praetorians. 'nuff said :lol:

forgot to add english leaders, redcoats = late medevil pwnage!

For military conquest, my favorite head-bashing civs are:

1. Inca. Combination of Agg/Fin is very strong.
2. Aztecs. I like spiritual as a trait...jump civics to jump in and out of war.
3. Mongols/Kublai. Creative trait is nice in those newly conquered territories...
4. Catherine. Financial/Creative helps you manage your conquests better.

As for the UUs, I like Catherine's the best, and the Keshik next (on this list, anyway). I see the advantage of the Quecha, but in my opinion, it comes too early. Nice...but not great. The Jag is kind of the same. Cheap, no need to get/hook up a resource...nice, but not great. The Quecha and the Jag are about a wash as UUs go.

Keshik is a very good unit for supporting an invasion force and for pillaging, but without City Raider promotions (or the free Combat I promotion for the Aggressive civ), it is not really a good city battle (either defending or attacking) unit. But it is very powerful as a key part of a 'combined arms' military force.

Where's the love for Napoleon? He's got to be my favorite conqueror. You can easily grab an ancient wonder in between axemen with a couple chops. Also, forges come early (especially if you get oracle) and can be built in just a couple more turns than an axeman. After which will shave a turn or two off all future axemen.

I admit I do not use the musketeer much. One good use they do have, when you can build them. I am usually running vassalage so my units are getting 2 free promos everywhere by this time. Give them medic and march (combat 1 is free remember), and go pillage everything with pairs of musketeers, they also make good escorts for your real invasion stacks. However, I usually only get gunpowder when I want chemistry -> steel (drydocks grenaiders frigates and cannon), and by then riflemen or infantry are not far off.

Tokugawa is definately a close second. The samurai is an awesome unit that comes at an awesome time. It's like the medieval praetorian, and can even take on grenaiders and win (I usually assign combat promotions until I can get march or commando). Lighthouses and especially courthouses are buildings that you want in every city ASAP and Toku delivers. Samurais tend to carve you out a large empire and half civic cost is not a bad bonus. It's not as good on small or quick settings I find, ie: most multiplayer games, but civic costs can be enormous on slower or larger settings and organized is a strong trait in these games.

My 2 cents

Catherine if your going for early expansion, because She land-grabs like mad and has a strong economy factor and the Cossack is one of the best UU's(along with the Roman one).

Ghandi is another favorite of mine, those worker are really fast.

About the Incan UU, its only good on a small continent or Pangea map. I prefer the larger Archipelago maps, and that UU might as well not exist.

Catherine...The expanding borders help with conquest, and holding the cities I take. The finacial helps keep the war machine rolling.

Also Catherine here, Cossacks are simply invincible

Ceaser here. Praets are just too overpowered. And contrary to some belief, they still have uses in the middle ages (like taking down longbowmen, it is normally like a 33% chance of winning, obviously depending on stituation.).