STATUS: Coding... ;).
The listings are more or less up to date at this point. I will be tweaking some of the features with additional comments as it occurs to me to do so ;). Also, I will be adding in a few other suggestions that have been made since this list was compiled.

This is the Python coding thread for the Colonization of the Moon mod by JBG et al. Here I am accumulating a list of all the suggestions made so far that might require python coding for discussion about how we might want to implement them, and which, if any implementation we want to use.

Well.... uh.... um.... what actually does need coding atm? What have you done so far?

Belizan, try looking back through the posts... But do tell me what you've got so far.


And so I have... and so I have...

I must apologize in advance, due to the heavy requirements for editting, many of the suggestions and comments for various features may be orphaned from their original authors. sorry :(.

Also included on this thread will be a sysnopsis of where each of these features is in coding status. Each feature will be given a codified feature code for easy identification and indexed here for status and, potentially, author, in the event I do not end up coding them all personally.

Key
Status:
Unconfirmed -- The idea has been discussed but no decision has been made about its inclusion.
Under Investigation -- Further investigation of the idea or feature has been requested to determine feasibility
Passed Over -- This feature was passed over as undesirable or unworkable.
v2 -- This feature is being delayed until a later version
SDK -- This feature has been delayed until the availability of the SDK
Confirmed -- This feature is slated for inclusion in the mod

State:
Unspecified -- This idea has only been talked about, without a discrete discussion of the how it would work or method of implementation determined. In other words, I don't have a very good feel for how this feature is anticipated to be realized in the mod.
Pending Feedback/Confirmation -- Work on this feature is pending feedback on the understanding of the feature, or confirmation from JBG that it is in fact desired for the mod.
Research Required -- Further research is required to determine how this feature might be implemented.
Not Coded -- A plan for how to implement the feature (and what the feature is) has been discussed, but no code has been written.
Review Pending -- A demo of the feature has been created, and is awaiting feedback.
Implemented -- The feature is considered complete and the code ready for inclusion into the mod.
Under Review -- Bugs have been discovered in the implementation of the feature which are being investigated.
(More as necessary--like Under AI Testing ;) )


Python-based Features

1) Random Events
1.1(Confirmed|Unspecified) Digging too deep and causing an earthquake that would have an ICBM's effect minus the fallout
1.2(Confirmed|Unspecified) Dust storm that would kill settlers and workers?
1.3(Unconfirmed|Unspecified) Periodic solar storms are definitely a consideration.
1.4(Confirmed|Unspecified) Also, every year, the Terran system (Earth and Luna) passes through the paths of a number of comets. Comets leave dust trails behind them that enter the Terran atmoshpere as shooting stars. On Luna, they would hit the surface at speeds in excess of 100 kilometres per second. Periodic, annual meteorite showers might add more flavour, n'est ce pas?
1.5(Confirmed|Unspecified) The occasional impact with something reasonably big might be intersting too. It is estimated that over 1000 tons of material lands on Luna every year!
1.6(Confirmed|Unspecified) Also, moonquakes have been detected as Luna cools down. So deep mines could be occasionally destroyed by moonquakes and need repairing.

2) Improvements/Features with Special Features
2.1(Confirmed|Unspecified) Biodomes
2.2(Unconfirmed|Unspecified) Underground Railroad
2.3(Confirmed|Implemented) Radar Tower
2.4(Confirmed|Implemented) Outposts/Air Fields
2.5(Confirmed|Unspecified) Improvement Requirements
2.6(Confirmed|Unspecified) Glasshouse
2.7(Confirmed|Unspecified) Solar Panels
2.8(Confirmed|Unspecified) SATs/AT-SATs (This should move to 5, huh? )

3) Meta-Civilization Effects
3.1(Unconfirmed|Unspecified) New Civilizations join the Colonization race as the game progresses.
3.2(Confirmed|Unspecified) Rebellion

4) Special Buildings, Projects and Wonders
4.1(Confirmed|Implemented) City Architecture (Mega-"Improvements" -- Bunkers and Biodomes)
4.1.1(Confirmed|Research Required) Mega-Improvement-based city displays
4.2(Confirmed|Implemented) He3 Exchange
4.2.1(Under Investigation|Research Required) He3 Exchange production display


5) New Unit Abilities/Special Units
5.1(Under Investigation|Not Coded) Fuel
5.2(Confirmed|Implemented) Artillery
5.3(Confirmed|Unspecified) Self-Propelling Shells/Civ2 style missile weapons
5.4(Under Investigation|Unspecified) Computer Virus Weapons that cause units to lose their turns
5.5(Confirmed|Unspecified) Unit special abilities based system
5.6(Unconfirmed|Unspecified) Mind Control
5.7(Confirmed|Unspecified) March of the Hackers
5.8(Confirmed|Implemented) Turrets
5.9(Confirmed|Implemented) Lancer
5.10(Confirmed|Implemented) Tech-based Global Unit strength modifiers
5.11(Under Investigation|Unspecified) The EMP Nuke

6) Barbarians
6.1(Under Investigation|Unspecified) Earth-based Anti-Independents
6.2(Passed Over|Unspecified) Organisms
6.3(Under Investigation|Unspecified) Debris

7) Merge Technologies
7.1(Under Investigation|Not Coded) Religion Research Mod (niffweed17) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=146445)
7.2(Under Investigation|Not Coded) Military Bases Mod (TheLopez) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=154418)
7.3(Under Investigation|Not Coded) Cultural Decay Mod (Bhruic) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=143051)
7.4(Unconfirmed|Not Coded) Lost Units Mod (frontbrecher) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140601)
7.5(Under Investigation|Not Coded) Settler Religion Mod (Bhruic) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=145729)
7.6(Unconfirmed|Not Coded) Larger map sizes (dlordmagic) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=144777)
7.7(Under Investigation|Not Coded) Random Events Mod (DireAussies) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=142157)

8) Civics
8.1(Under Investigation|Unspecified) Foreign Policy Civics
8.1.1(Unconfirmed|Unspecified) Isolationism
8.2(Confirmed|Implemented) Civics Selection Screen Display issues
8.3(Under Investigation|Unspecified) Other Civics

9) Great People & Specialists
9.1(Confirmed|Implemented) Great Artist (as normal)
9.2(Confirmed|Implemented) Great Engineer (as normal)
9.3(Confirmed|Implemented) Great Merchant (as normal - possibly can be changed)
9.4(Confirmed|Implemented) Great Scientist (as normal)
9.5(Confirmed|Implemented) Great General (created randomly when an experienced unit enters combat)
9.5.1(Confirmed|Implemented) Great Generals are spawned from experienced units winning battles.
9.5.2(Unconfirmed|Unspecified) give a complete promotion line (say, all garrison promotions, or all city raider promotions) to a unit.
9.5.3(Unconfirmed|Unspecified) give one promotion to each unit in a stack.
9.5.4(Unconfirmed|Unspecified) lead a unit to certain victory.
9.5.5(Unconfirmed|Not Coded) upgrade all instances of a certain unit for free.
9.5.6(Confirmed|Implemented) fortify a colony granting a massive defensive bonus plus an experience bonus for units garrisoned in the city.
9.5.7(Confirmed|Implemented) set up a military academy that incurs a smaller defensive bonus and a massive experience bonus for any unit built in the city.
9.6(Confirmed|Implemented) Great AI (sort-of great prophet, but more powerful (and rarer)
9.6.1(v2|Research Required) Limit spawning based on civic/religion/technology
9.6.2(Confirmed|Implemented) enter a city's networks as a super specialist, providing massive commerce and science benefits
9.6.3(Confirmed|Implemented) enter a city's networks as a permanent resident, helping protect against spies and viruses, incurring a defensive bonus, reducing corruption/maintenance and increasing the science of the city
9.6.4(Unconfirmed|Research Required) Enter another civ's networks as a secret agent for only a few turns, granting access to that civ's LOS and cities.
9.7(v2|Unspecified) Great Statesman (? tentative - only add if possible to add new great people)

10) Leadership Traits
10.1(Confirmed|Implemented) Scientific
10.1.1(Confirmed|Implemented) +50% chance of generating great scientist
10.1.2(Confirmed|Implemented) Can access scientific-type units
10.1.3(Confirmed|Implemented) Scientific improvements generate happiness
10.1.4(Confirmed|Implemented) Large numbers of military units generate unhappiness
10.1.5(Confirmed|Implemented) Cannot access more advanced military units
10.2(Confirmed|Implemented) Economic
10.2.1(Confirmed|Implemented) +50% chance of generating great merchant
10.2.2(Confirmed|Implemented) Can access trade units; 1 free trader unit
10.2.3(Confirmed|Implemented) Commercial improvements generate happiness
10.2.4(Confirmed|Implemented) Happiness improvements are less effective
10.2.5(Confirmed|Implemented) Cannot access more advanced scientific units
10.2.6(Confirmed|Implemented) +1 upkeep for scientific units
10.3(Confirmed|Implemented) Independent
10.3.1(Confirmed|Implemented) 2 free military units per colony
10.3.2(Confirmed|Implemented) +50% chance of generating great general
10.3.3(Confirmed|Implemented) Military improvements generate happiness
10.3.4(Confirmed|Implemented) Scientific improvements are less effective
10.3.5(Confirmed|Implemented) Cannot access more advanced commercial units
10.3.6(Confirmed|Implemented) +1 upkeep for commercial units


The Bible
There are a lot of technologies, buildings, improvements, etc. listed in the bible. Without personally attempting to implement them all in XML I'm not entirely certain which ones require Python support. This is an area where woodelf and others should post requests for help implementing bible elements that are proving difficult to capture in XML.

What if something would go wrong in the colonisation? Could that be reflected through something similar to global warming? Or maybe some disasters?



All the suggestions in this section seem codeable, modulo that none of them are very well specified. I could, I suppose, just "make up the details". But.. yeah... anyway...



(Confirmed|Unspecified) Digging too deep and causing an earthquake that would have an ICBM's effect minus the fallout
(Confirmed|Unspecified) Dust storm that would kill settlers and workers?
(Unconfirmed|Unspecified) Periodic solar storms are definitely a consideration.
(Confirmed|Unspecified) Also, every year, the Terran system (Earth and Luna) passes through the paths of a number of comets. Comets leave dust trails behind them that enter the Terran atmoshpere as shooting stars. On Luna, they would hit the surface at speeds in excess of 100 kilometres per second. Periodic, annual meteorite showers might add more flavour, n'est ce pas?

- Asteroid Defense :
Something like SDI but instead for anti-nuke its for anti-asteroids.
Could effect significant less damage due to asteroid impacts for the ownsers nation.
Biodomes would be cool, and also a python script that has a random chance of something falling from the sky destroying the dome or any improvement for that matter. I like the idea posted earlier about falling debris also potentially being very, very good. Like the old pods from SMAC.
Maybe you could also use some elements from DireAussies random event mod, it already has earthquakes included, and there was some talk that it wasn't too diffiult to do meteors as well. The only problem is that the mod doesn't work anymore since the latest patch, but it might return.

(Confirmed|Unspecified) The occasional impact with something reasonably big might be intersting too. It is estimated that over 1000 tons of material lands on Luna every year!

I'm still thinking about debris. Maybe it won't have mutant microorganisms, but a lot of stuff hits the Moon. It'd be cool to simulate that, but I don't know what sort of stuff really hits it, other than rock.

I'd think bigger chunks could either A) cause damage if they hit an improved tile, B) drop a valuable resource (like a tech breakthrough), or C) impact the ground and create a new resource tile. Or maybe all three are possible at the same time. And during periods of increased activity the % chance of an impact goes up. Also with improved tech maybe the colonists could learn to deflect, capture, or destroy incoming chunks.


I'm still convinced we need some sort of debris/collision model. Maybe it won't have space amoebas, but it can cause damage, create a new resource source, lead to a tech breakthrough, or simple be a Lunar goodie hut.

You could have multiple sizes of potential collision sources each with different low %s of hitting the moon. And then each of those has a chance to yield something for the colonists or simply cause havoc.

What about building and improvement hit points? Again, I'm thinking of debris. It'd be cool to have a biodome get hit and only get damaged, thus requiring some repairs before something else hits it!
Both of those are potentially doable, although would require more discussion to flesh out the ideas enough for them to be codeable.

@Woodelf: why not have 'debris' as a barbarian unit? Say:
- it's a one-off attack unit (missile unit in other words)
- it can only move in a straight line
- it has a wide (but not infinite) range
- it leaves some kind of mark when it hits depending on its size

Just a thought. Might be rather hard to implement, though. What's your opinion, Belizan?

(See 6) Barbarians for further discussions)

(Confirmed|Unspecified) Also, moonquakes have been detected as Luna cools down. So deep mines could be occasionally destroyed by moonquakes and need repairing.

Quite a few special improvements and features (generally routes) have been suggested as well.


(Confirmed|Unspecified) Biodomes
Biodomes would be cool, and also a python script that has a random chance of something falling from the sky destroying the dome or any improvement for that matter. I like the idea posted earlier about falling debris also potentially being very, very good. Like the old pods from SMAC.
In case such a disaster would happen, woodelf, the colonists would learn of this tradegy and learn to build enforced domes? Anyone considered about the 'learning the bad way' -option?




Well, we could implement a random chance that biodomes might get hit and damaged by tiny fragments of debris floating through space, and introduce a technology which gave you a save against it, and another which made you immune. That sort of what you were thinking?


(Unconfirmed|Unspecified) Underground Railroad

Railroads. Hmm... Underground network?



Meaning... what... exactly? That it isn't pillagable?


(Confirmed|Implemented) Radar Tower

Unfortunately, the Radar Tower fell by the wayside because there's no way I can see of giving improvements an LOS rating or the ability to detect stealth.


I have this feature implemented in a demo mod already.


Radar Tower grants bonus to friendly air forces within a certain radius


You mean the radar tower provides some sort of bonus to... whom? Units on the same square? The nearest city? Or are you saying the radar tower is a building not an improvement?

Radar Tower: Bonus for all friendly air forces within say 2-3 tile radius



(Confirmed|Implemented) Outposts/Air Fields

The Outpost had to be modified because there's no way I can see of giving improvements the ability to refuel air units.
Second bullet point: (Airfields...) If possible, I'd like to do this, although I think you've already said it'll need the SDK. Also how would we stop these auto-spawned units adversely affecting game play and upkeep?

We can do airfields now, just clunky. We make a unit with no movement (optionally invisible--doesn't really matter) which is capturable and has no defense that acts as a carrier. It can't be built, but we spawn one whenever a worker builds an airfield improvement. That's for ordinary air. For fuel-based air, it's even simpler, and a demo is already built in my demo fuel mod.


I have this feature implemented in a demo mod already.

(Confirmed|Unspecified) Improvement Requirements

How do you ensure that you can only build improvement x if improvement y has been built there first?


Override CanDoImprovement. Also there is an upgrade path for improvements which is used for Towns. It may be co-optable for what you want to do.


(Confirmed|Unspecified) Glasshouse

I'm not sure about the Glasshouse effect. I don't know if we can create a source of fresh water programmatically or via XML, I'll have to look into that, if no one else has.

By glasshouses do you mean greenhouses for growing seeds/plants?

(Confirmed|Unspecified) Solar Panels


You said way earlier in thread you want an incentive for solar panels well how about make every pop unit and building require one panel. so replace health with power and every solar panel delivers one health to nearest city (finally a use for all those tiles outside the city's fat cross)


Can you make a resource/improvement delivery one health per via XML? Or is this something I would need to research?


I'd just assumed adding one health was easy, a la forests no? I guess the hard part is having tiles outside city radius create health, forest bonus is for inside city radius hmm, is it possible to change health factor to a civ wide factor and distribute it to cities, so 2 city empire with 16 panels collectively in it's borders can have 16 - [number of power units buildings consume] total population? I guess this is complicated huh... would be nice though I thought power implementation in civ 4 was lame.

(Confirmed|Unspecified) SATs/AT-SATs (This should move to 5, huh? )


MPS constellation, Moon Positioning Satellites would be just as important to an advanced moon military as they are to an earth-based one, World Wonder candidate here, adds special promotions to all units? +25%? Balance issues here.


Well, I think many nations could have an MPS system (I mentioned this briefly before, but I wasn't sure what the real life physics were for stable orbits around the moon. We could develop our own sat/killer sat ruleset and add it on to the game. Allow people to build additional sats/killer sats to effect a satellite coverage rating, then each turn grant every unit of each faction a promotion that reflected that faction's satellite coverage during that turn.


On multiple MPS yes you can have multiple for instance US GPS and ESA proposed constellation. AT-SATs would be nice and realistic but that might make it more complicated than it has to be. I'm searching XML to see if its possible see what you can find.

Features which add/remove or otherwise impact entire players/civilizations


All of these are problematic as without the SDK there is no way to add a player dynamicly. It is rumored (but I have not verified) to be possible to activate "dummy" players added to a scenario via the World Builder, but that would require both verification and the creation and limitation of the game to World Builder generated scenario (or the creation of a method for detecting and disabling certain features based on whether the game was started using the WB map or a custom map generator file.



(Unconfirmed|Unspecified) New Civilizations join the Colonization race as the game progresses.

I was thinking of having it start with one of the five space agencies, and then using Python to introduce (or at least activate) other civs as we go along. Although this is headin off into scenario territory a bit...


(Confirmed|Unspecified) Rebellion


I always loved the rebellion in civ2 but implementation is ugly


Need the SDK for this. You can't add players. Best we might be able to do is reserve a certain number of unused players via the WB (since we have a scenario anyway) and then reactivate them. I have heard of this being done, but have not looked at it.


Third bullet point: (Rebellions...) what sort of rebellions? The worst I ever had was civil disorder. Having colonies secede is already programmed in via culture, but having them break away to form barbarian states might add an extra level of interest. If possible this might be worth looking into...


We can flip them to the barbarians, that's easy (although coding the criterion might be difficult). We can't spawn new factions to put them in. At least not yet, not without a scenario and some experimentation, and even then, we will have to have dummy civilizations waiting to be brought to life by a rebellion event. I've looked at this problem a lot, and it is my opinion that this is best left for the SDK.

On Rebellion: Yes having and outlying city swap over to Barb civ would be fun, when I heard barbs were going to be able to have cities again in civ4 i was excited but even on highest level they aren't strong enough to make interesting more of an annoyance. Rebellion in civ2 split your empire in half roughly usually by the time you were about to dominate the world.
i really think we need to have a rebellion feature that flips an outlying citt to the barb civ which will become sort of a free luna civ or something, and we need to NOT handicap them ie give them tech parity with second or third tech leader, this way there is a civ that is constantly threatening all civs militarily i think that makes it interesting what do you guys think?

Buildings which require special handling or code to implement their effects


Building effects are easy?



(Confirmed|Implemented) City Architecture (Mega-"Improvements" -- Bunkers and Biodomes)


Similarly, I completely agree with Belizan. I think cities could have two 'options' (think mega-improvements here) - either they can be bog-standard concrete armoured buildings, which have good defensive bonuses but make some people unhappy, or nice big open attractive biodomes which make people happy and add health - but that come with no defensive bonuses (or even negative defensive bonuses).

Belizan, is there any way (easily) of having the Biodome/Bunker routes of city architecture (see earlier posts and the Bible for more). It'd be rather good to have them. And, if it's possible, is there any way of making the AI choose between them rather than having all it's cities as one type?

As to the actual mega-improvements themselves, we can write our own decision process and put it into canConstruct/cannotConstruct which will basically allow us to make the decision for the AI. As for the effects of those two buildings, I'm going to have to look into it deeper to see if I can implement something like the ExtraYieldThresholds you want (buildings don't seem to be able to do that in XML) and I'm not sure it's possible to "set" the defensive bonus of a city to 0% (but we can give it a negative modifier I think ).

Any progress on programming the two mega-improvements btw? (Biodome and Bunker)? Sorry, I don't mean TILE improvements, Belizan, I mean buildings in cities :duh:
As for the mega-improvements, if you can describe to me the criterion for deciding when to build them, I can (probably) code it.



Ok, so I have two basic questions. These two "mega-improvements" represent the overall architectural design of the base/colony/city, right? So... You have to decide it when you found it? Can you change architectural types once the city has been founded? Are they only made available via certain techs (do I have tech concerns)? Note that all of these are doable, but I want to know how you want it to work before I start coding it up and debugging it. Also, if you could give me a description of the decision process you'd like the AI to use when picking between these...

NOTE: I still think in Civ-II terms, so more often than not, when I say 'improvement' I mean 'building' or 'city improvement', *not* 'tile improvement'. This is doubly confusing because we have a biodome building AND a biodome tile upgrade.
Okay, when I first visualised the two mega-improvements, my thinking was roughly this:
1. Okay, we know that some improvements, when built, change the graphical appearance of the city on the main map, i.e. their graphic appears among the other buildings of the city.
2. With that in mind, there will presumably be a number of different ways of building colonies on the moon...
See where I'm going with this?

Basically, the biodome and bunker buildings convey a number of great bonuses and penalties (see the moon bible for details) and significantly alter the character of a colony. When they're built, the graphic of the colony on the main map changes also. If the bunkers improvement is built, the colony becomes a series of armoured, buttressed bunkers. If the biodome improvement is built, the colony is surrounded by a low circular wall and entirely covered by a transparent dome structure. These improvements, in other words, do not just appear with the other buildings with the colony's grahpic; they actually chnge it radically.

As one can reasonably guess, the biodome improvement adds health and happiness, while encouraging science. However, it essentially nullifies any defensive bonuses of the colony - if it's punctured more than a few times, it could collapse.
On the other hand, the bunkers improvement add defensive bonuses, reduces war weariness and increases production. However, it adds unhealthiness and slightly increases unhappiness.

That is only a rough outline, however. One thing I would like to stress is that the two should be balanced enough for players to make a serious decision with each colony, rather than just having all their cities as bunkers. Similarly, it would not do for the AI to have all THEIR cities as bunkers either. There must be enough differentiation, and enough balance, to make both human and computer make a choice with each colony.

Of course, they do not *have* to build EITHER improvement in a colony.



(Confirmed|Research Required) Mega-Improvement-based city displays


The reason why I asked if it was possible to keep the swaying trees graphic was so that we could have ?(as well as the buildings) perhaps the occasional tree swaying gently beneath the transparent, magnesium-reinforced piezoelectric polymer of a biodome? It would look fantastic if done well.

The main stumbling block with this is that so far we do not have a suitable building mesh to use as a biodome. We have the colosseum building, but that doesn't have a dome on top. The word is 'bioDOME' so it has to be, ah, DOME-shaped.

Attatched are three images, all collages from my Civ-II FW moon mod. The first shows, from left to right, the farmland (2nd level food tile improvement) equivalent (the tile biodome) and two city-graphics. The biodome city improvement should look rather like a cross between the first and second graphic. The third graphic is a design for a series of interlinked biodomes.

The second image shows four different designs for bunkered colonies. The citadel, fortress-style should be easily apparent.

The third image shows two potential designs for colonies that do not have either mega-improvement.

I hope that particular attention is payed to the first of the three!
And I also hope this has been rather helpful.



(Confirmed|Implemented) He3 Exchange


+2 gold per He3 resource in the city radius which are connected to the city and have the right improvement built on them regardless of whether they are worked.



(Under Investigation|Research Required) He3 Exchange production display


Modify the current value of the gold production of the He3 Exchange in the city display.

New Python based abilities and features of units


(Under Investigation|Review Pending) Fuel

can we all please stop talking about the SDK
everybody is getting lazy and saying that all the stuff only will become possible with the SDK without knowing anything about it.
on this tread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=155156), created by JBG, the first answer someone shouts is that the SDK is required, while it's easy to mod in.

I for one would ditch fuel because A) its hard to implement B) AI is too dumb to use and C) limited to land or sea. Let's just use the airbases idea, and I know JBG will want to differentiate between spacecraft and aircraft but heres a reality check, anything on the moon that flies is a spacecraft, there is no atmosphere so fixed wing aircraft are useless. The air mission model civ4 uses is pretty realistic in that air units have inherent limited range and operate from a designated base, to add a starcraft style protoss carrier unit we could just make a land unit that treats all terrain as road give it good movement and have it be a base for aircraft a la the vanilla civ aircraft carrier. theres not much water on our map anyways so its not that big of a difference.


Ditch Fuel completely, civ 4's air treatment is OK but with upped damage could be better. So a Fleet of attackers is at a significant disadvantage to a prepared enemy but fleet on fleet carrier task forces approximately equal. Radar towers add air attack def bonus perhaps in addition to LOS.


First bullet point: (Ditch fuel...) I think I would prefer to keep fuel so we can differentiate between fighter- and spaceship- type air units. Also you have already demonstrated that it'll work in-game, so I'd like to keep it.


Well, let's be clear here. We do not (may not) have the ability to make fuel-based airplanes. Because airplanes can go over land or sea, and we can't make a unit that does both without serious side effects (like it being nigh invulnerable on attack). We can do the rest, though. If you like, I can package up my fuel-based mod, and you can take a look at it.


I have working fuel-based unit mod (modulo that you can't make anything capable of going over land and sea at the same time), but the AI has no idea how to use it. I have been considering how to solve this problem, and with a little bit of creative cheating, it's *possible* I may have a solution. I wasn't sure how important this was to us, though, as JBG sort of mentioned it in passing a while ago.

Ok, I can't use the trick I was thinking of for fuel-based units, but I have thought of another way.

Every turn, onBeginPlayerTurn if Player not isHuman, we walk the list of units.

For each unit which is fuel based and has less then half it's fuel tank, we do the following:

1) Patch up it's fuel tank--If it has 0 (and the out of fuel bit isn't set), we give it it's move in fuel. If it has < then it's move but more then 0, we give it it's move + 1 in fuel.

2) We find the nearest source of fuel (this is hard, given terrain issues)

3) We find a square it canMoveInto within its move range on the path to the fuel.

4) We setXY() the unit to that location

5) We finishMove() the unit

6) setAI to None (just in case)

7) We test for refueling by hand, if it's in the same square as a refueling unit (carrier for instance), we refuel it automatically

8) When it gets refueled, we reset it's ai to Unknown, which I am guessing is used by the engine to mark a unit which needs a new role assigned to it.

This gives the computer some advantages when it comes to it's fuel units, but nothing that major, IMO. The hard part is dealing with different travel modes and finding the shortest path to the nearest fuel depot. Totally solvable, just a lot of work. The second hardest problem is the moving target issue--carriers (or other supply units) can move, making predictive movement problematic. Easiest solution is just to put in a flag "rendezvous" or some such, ref count, say, so that when a unit comes in to rendezvous with a supply unit, it tags that unit so it won't move (and we just finishMove() it every turn at the start of the turn.

Best solution I have so far to the fuel-based units & computer player issues.
Are you sure chaging the unitAI is neccessary. Surely if it's got no moves it doesn't matter? Also, won't this mean that AI units will never run out of fuel? What happens if there are no carriers left?
Totally not necessary, but... I don't know how the engine manages its units. What I want to avoid is the idea that it says, Ah, I have this unit, I want it to go to place A) (farther then my fuel/2 limit will let me reach). It starts to go there, then, I can't move it for a few turns, then I can move it again, well, let's keep moving towards A. By resetting the unit AI I hope to force the computer to make a new plan for the unit once it is refueled. To limit the possibility that it will just yo-yo its units around (which seems likely).

@Belizan
I knew you would be intrested in how I did this. What I did is when a unit is selected that can 'walk' on water, all the the water terrain is turned into the same type of terrian that is defined as a land type of terrian in the terrain infos xml file instead of a water type. In testing it out I made so that settlers could walk on water and it worked beautifully. My settler could walk on water but my warrior could not. There was also no way of noticing while you were playing the game and had the settler selected that the water was actually a land terrain type. Doing it this way also does not handicap the AI since they will also realize they could walk on 'water' with certain units since they will think its land.
So you are saying you made two versions of each water terrain, roughly identical save that the "land" version had <bWater> set to 0, and then onUnitSelected you do a sweep of.. the unit's move range? The entire map? And swap the terrains, then swap them back on the next unit selected? I didn't even think the AI sets off unitSelected events? Clever idea though, I had for some reason assumed that changing the map would cause graphical glitches and map corruption (from failing to track when to change it to and fro), not to mention I wasn't sure how to manage it properly for the AI :/. Have I got the gyst of your algorithm, or was there even more deviousness involved in your solution? Inquiring minds want to know 8).
@belizan
I dont know whether the AI sets of onunit select or not but I definately hope it does. And I would do a sweep of the entire map. I got no graphical issues because I set the last two boolean values of set terrain type to 0 so that it did not recalculate or redo the graphics. It is actually a really simple short algoritham which I think you figured out well.
you may be right belizan, the AI may not get this benefit, i dont know if he watched the AI to see what happens, create a map with one plot surrounded by water and see if the AI can get off of it
Well, my other concern is the gotcha factor. Improvements are set to only exist on certain terrains, and generate resources based on terrain type, etc. With an OnUnitSelected based algorithm, you ahve the problem of aberrations from, say.. when a player goes from a selected unit directly to the city view. Or he ends his turn (i don't know if OnPlayerEndTurn runs before or after production). Most of these can be safeguarded against by duplicating the entries in Improvements, etc. to work equally well on the water tiles and the waterthatisland tiles, I suppose. I just.. worry that we've missed something :). It seems open to problems. I guess I should stop postulating and just build it and see 8). That old Mac programming style versus Windows programming style issue 8).

(Confirmed|Implemented) Artillery


Artillery might be useful after all, you know

What is the story on returning artillery to how it operated in civ3, ranged and capturable?

Easy to do except for the part where the AI will never use them properly.
OK, AI wont use artillery as it uses air units to bombard?

IMO, civ4 went backwards with artillery, guns are always captured in war and never actually ENTER combat oh well are you sure we cant get the AI to use like a bomber?
Well, I haven't looked at making bombarding units be carriers that can only carry "bombardment" aircraft that get destroyed at the end of every turn and remade at the beginning of every turn and have only one operation, bombard. That might work. I'd have to look at making new aircraft. Of course that could make for some funny tricks. Like... Transfering the bombardment from the arti to a city then moving the arti and then attacking with the bombardment. Depends on what rules you'd want to have govern it, but I suppose that sort of implementation could be made to work.

Exactly what rules do you want? Can you move and bombard in the same round? Can you bombard more then once per turn? etc., etc.

Edit: And of course this presupposes I can override the ability to rehome bombardments, whcih could be problematic.
I've always thought Fighters were stupid personally. I like Bombers, but the AI seems ambivalent. I think they do use the current bombardment system, but it would be hard, like Belizan said, to teach them to use Civ3 artillery.

Kael in his FfH mod sort of put in Civ3 artillery by having magic users create a Fireball that basically blows itself up at the city, doing collateral damage after it targets one defender. The AI seems to use this.
So I'm told, but I've never had the AI use it in any of my FfH games :/. But I digress.
jsut had an idea: artillery unit is a carrier, it carries a unit called Shells or whatever ammo it uses, the unit dies after being 'fired' and it regenerates shells at a certain rate, what do you think of this? that way you can store up bombardment and attack all at once, then not be able to for a round or so
Yeah, that can potentially be done. I don't know about side effects or gotchas at the moment. I have some concerns about hard coded aircraft missions atm. I would have to try to implement it to have a better idea. But it sounds promising.

... (see below)

Python-based unit features and abilities continued...


Making new unit features or traits is "easy". What is hard is getting the AI to use them properly (or in some cases, at all).



Fuel (see above--split off for post character limit considerations)
Artillery (see above--split off for post character limit considerations)
(Confirmed|Unspecified) Self-Propelling Shells/Civ2 style missile weapons


what about self-propelling shells?


Does anyone know if it is possible to program in Civ II-style missile weapons? That'd be cool.



Someone would have to remind me how they worked?


(Under Investigation|Unspecified) Computer Virus Weapons that cause units to lose their turns

Later on we could have computer virus weapons that can force units to skip turns.



You might be shocked at how easy this would be to implement, and yet how difficult it might be to get the AI to take advantage of it. I suppose we could force it to do something along these lines in OnPlayerBeginTurn. Basically making the decisions to use the ability ourselves. Not that the AI will understand what the unit is for, or where to position it.

(Confirmed|Unspecified) Unit special abilities based system


How about the first few units have no combat but other special abilities? That could result in a really diverse 'army' by the time the first brute-force unit comes along.




The trouble here is, teaching the AI to use the abilities. One can add a great many special abilities to units right now, but the AI won't know what to make of them :/


(Unconfirmed|Unspecified) Mind Control

How about mind control? How far down the tech tree is that for combat?


Again, easy to do, even with a limited duration, except for the part about the AI knowing how to use it.

(Confirmed|Unspecified) March of the Hackers

Hackers are awfully under-rated. Everybody seems to think that they're all bad-guys. There are white-hat hackers, black-hat hackers and gray-hat hackers. I think you can figure out the difference between these three groups.
Communication is important on the moon to help reduce mix-ups and enhance coordination. Maybe there could be white-hat hackers that could build communication networks to act as other type of 'roads'? Black-hatters would be of course militaristic hackers that could destroy of take over these networks?


(Confirmed|Implemented) Turrets


idea for turrets
create a unit with no movement, which is limited to 1 per city (if possible, otherwise make it a national unit, with a max of 5 or something). you can use a modern armor model for that (or mobile SAM/mobile artillary, havent seen those yet), shrik it and put it in a group of 2.
Turret? What turrets? What effect are we going for? I can think of quite a few ways to implement "turrets" :).
Turrets would be nice non-movable defenders (like haarbal said) that would have a limited number per city and be constantly upgradable. I'm thinking like the Age of Empires towers. When you get a new tech the turret gets upgraded automatically. Is this possible? That way the AI keeps having at least one good defender. :)

I need to get some types of weaponry in the tech tree. Ions, Plasma, Particle beams, ect.
It's totally possible, just a question of how we want to do it.

You want the turret to require to be built? Or just /always/ there?

For instance, we could have a building called "turret defenses" which when built caused a turret unit to be spawned in the city, which at the end of every turn, if it were destroyed, would be replaced by a new turret unit. Similarly, if techs updated such that a new turret unit type were required, it would be replaced at the end of every turn. That's easy.

That would be an interesting defender. It get's rebuilt each turn if the city isn't taken? It would require some tweaking, but anything that might help the AI is a good thing.

So destroyed = rebuilt, but damaged still has to heal?

like the missile turrets woodelf mentioned in his techs on the top of this page, in his tech list

i would say, build it like a unit, avaiable to retrain after captured, updradable at the cost of gold (new weapons/armor)

Well, but all he said was "Missile Turrets". That's interpretable in a great many ways .

As for repairing vs. being fully repaired at the end of every turn, we can set it up so it is fully repaired at the end of every turn. We can also "remove" it's ability to get promotions. We just have to decide how we want it to work.

removing the promotions is a good idea (because it's a machine, it shouldn't get promotions). but i'm not sure about the full repair at the end of every turn. we might let it start with a increased heal rate (simply give it a boosted heal promotion at the start).

further is must have no movement and some balanced strength (but a bit stronger than regular units in that era) and maybe give it no defense bonusus.


I'm going to need a much better description of the turret before I can say whether I can code it. The big limitation is likely to be what the AI will utilize.

I was thinking it was a non-movement defender that protected the cities. It has garrison promotions. And with the proper advisor, like Military, and weight of AI choices the AI will build them. Think of non-movable archers.

The coding part will be making it so each city only can have one at a time and to make sure they automatically upgrade when the next tech is researched. This should ensure that AI cities will always get one good defender that can't be tricked into leaving the city.

Fulfilling that description is easy, but, the AI will keep building them even after he has one with that description. Better to make a Turret Defense building, which programmatically causes the turret to be built, that way the computer understands that he can only have one.

Can't you program it in that only one per city is allowed? Maybe do a check at the beginning of each turn? I don't know Python, but that sounds possible....
I would think doing it through a building is gonna make it hard when the first turret dies. Does the building monitor every turn to see if one exists, and if idt doesn't it makes a new one? Does it count for a few turns and then make one?

Most likely you will want to be able to build a new one like other units. Which means you are probably best off to block in the CannotTrain function. The CannotTrain function is passed the pCity so it would be enough to scan the units in the city and see if a turret was already there. If it is, then block the build.

You should be able to do this with a single check in CannotTrain, and wouldn't need a building for it.

Ah, thanks Kael, I wasn't aware the AI used the Can/Cannot series of functions. Given that, yeah, it's easy to do

imho turrets should be imovable units but have rebase ability, and be limited to 4 per nation. Also I don't see why they should be automaticaly upgraded? It seems realistic to spend money to upgrade them.


I have Turrets working, and have confirmed the AI uses them.

I currently have them set up to auto-promote (which was the hard part, btw). The code could use some cleaning, and could be a lot more user friendly (for instance, right now, to add a new type of turret, you have to add its UnitClass to a list in the Turrets.py file). I will probably, at some point, get around to writing the code to dynamically derive a list of all turrets from the upgrade information of the base turret unitclass. But for now, I'm sticking with this. I also have concerns about branching upgrade paths and civ specific UU turrets, both of which will require more testing and modification of my algorithm to accomodate. But at this point I feel like we have basic functionality there .


(Confirmed|Implemented) Lancer

In the bible JBG mentioned the unit Lancer being able to disable tracked unit class units. Now, would the Lancer need a promotion to enable this and how would you "disable" another unit? And after it's disabled can it be fixed and how do you capture it?
Well, you can "disable" it by capturing it? Or we could add an action button for that unit. The trouble with an action button is that the AI won't use it. What we can't do is intercept combat . We can do things orthogonal to it, or after the combat is over (capture, respawn, extra damage to winner, heal winner, etc.)
Oh, by the way, Woodelf and Belizan, the Lancer unit is supposed to be able to capture tracked units. It can't however, capture automated tracked units (like the TANDEM).?



Ok, so this is basically just a variation on the slavery mod with different units 8). Yes, it can be coded. No the AI won't realize that it has a special opportunity with Lancers, but yes, it will get to capture them should it choose to make that attack anyway. *BUT*, this presupposes that the Lancer wins the fight, and that it is acceptable for the Lancer to lose, based on an ordinary strength battle. Also, I'm going to want to know unit classes or combat classes or some other specifier to indicate which vehicles are capturable.

(Confirmed|Implemented) Tech-based Global Unit strength modifiers


Sixth bullet point: (Laser countermeasure techs) Is it possible for techs to alter the strength/promotions of units? If so would it affect the AI? Having new techs make units stronger against obsolete units might be interesting...




Sure. Easily done, assuming we define those rules carefully. There are some limitations because of the way bonuses can be assigned. You can only have general bonuses, bonuses based on terrain, bonuses for attacking (or defending), bonuses for attacking/defending a city, or bonuses against specific domains or unit combat types. Domains are effectively hard coded, but we can add unit combat types at will. So, as long as we break our generations of weapon technology appropriately via unit combat types, we can have promotions cause units to be built (or augmented) with bonuses against now obsolete technologies. This does not, however, let us do the cross-mapping. The AI will use them but will not especially understand them. We can attempt to tailor it's behaviour with weights and flavors.

Ok.. So here's what we could do for the cross-mapping problem. At the beginning of each turn (or each player's turn if you like), or even onTechAcquired, although I've seen some issues with trapping that event... We look at all the player's tech states and determine what is "state of the art" and how each player compares to that. Then we sweep each player's units and grant them "Tech Edge" promotion effects in accordance with that player's overall tech level. So, for instance, "Tech leader" might grant a +25% strength, whereas "Badly Outmoded" might grant a -10% strength. Assigned accross the board, and you have an overall tech-based combat modifier for all units based on where people sit relative to each other in the arms tech race. E.g. France may be doing alright with "Advanced Technical Capabilities" +10% strength, but when facing China's "Tech Leader" advantage of +25%, France is effectively at -15%. But against Germany's "Badly Outmoded" bonus of -10%, France has a 20% edge. Make sense?


(Under Investigation|Unspecified) The EMP Nuke


Last bullet point: (EMP weapons). Hmm. They would tend to work against electronic units (so all of them basically :D ) while leaving buildings/cities/&c standing. Dunno. Might be hard to implement.


I think for the moment we should concentrate on the Alpha. Most/all of this can be added later on in the day. Once the Alpha is up and running we can brainstorm on how it can be expanded and improved.
[/QUOTE]



Well, implementing our own custom explosion routine is not really that "hard" (laborious, perhaps, but not hard). The trick would be getting the AI to use it in some meaningful way. I have actually never played Civ4 into the modern era, so I have not seen the Civ4 implementation of nukes. I do not know if nukes are customizable. I'd have to look into that if we are interested in doing that.
[/QUOTE]

Barbarian Ideas


Generally speaking, all the ideas for barbarians are doable.



(Under Investigation|Unspecified) Earth-based Anti-Independents


Also, once people start having the 'independence' civic we could have massive waves of 'barbarian' units - Earthbound nations trying to reclaim the colonies.


(Passed Over|Unspecified) Organisms


I don't know about debris yielding destructive orgasms.

The organisms were another attempt to get barbarians on the moon. Right now it's solely civ vs civ.

idea for barbarians
create some weird sort of anaerobe bacteria (so it can survive on the moon), with some story around it that it's some geneticly mutated (natural mutation, no apocalyptic nuclear war thing), which has a heavy bonus (like 100%) against early (non mechanic) units. you can easelly shrink a random unit for this, make it all green (or another colour) and put it in a huge group (not too many)


Not sure what this was in response to, but as a feature, assuming organisms (*cough*) are basically barbarians of some sort, this is easy to do.


(Under Investigation|Unspecified) Debris

@Woodelf: why not have 'debris' as a barbarian unit? Say:
- it's a one-off attack unit (missile unit in other words)
- it can only move in a straight line
- it has a wide (but not infinite) range
- it leaves some kind of mark when it hits depending on its size

Just a thought. Might be rather hard to implement, though. What's your opinion, Belizan?

Hrmm.. barbarian asteroids? That kareen on a path across the map towards a destination? We could combine the two ideas. Event generated asteroids which spawn as barbarian units which come "flying" in on the map for people to try to stop, but... hmm.. couple issues. Could give it promotions to indicate it's distance (Promotion:Far Away +100% defense, etc. ;) ) But we can't make the asteroid "pass over" units which purposely stand in the way (I've had lots of issues with stacking units of different factions in the same plot, but maybe it would work :/). Also, such an asteroid would be detectable from far off, which means that we would have to reveal the plots the asteroid traveled over (so you could see it coming). Finally, we'd probably need to indicate it's destination.

So.. we can change the bonus type of a plot to a crater, we can add a feature for improvement damage. We can make a barbarian unit called an asteroid and force move it using the same sort of plan as the AI solution for fuel-based units. We could also make it triggered by a random event. We could bring up a dialog counting down the impending target, and marking it on the map (probably by adding a feature displaying the dialog, and then removing the feature once the dialog is cleared, otherwise, I'll need to co-opt some of the techniques from the spelldemo). We can add an action button to some set of units or do an automatic sweep for units allowed to attempt to intercept the asteroid. We can do alot of things I haven't even thought of yet 8). The having it go in a straight line towards it's destination though might be a little problematic, with unit stacking and the like--I'd have to experiment.

As for the debris, you are basically talking about random events, and those are easily doable, but I'd need a much more concrete set of rules to talk about them. It's easy to add resources, damaging an improvement would be more problematic. We'd have to make something like nuclear fallout called "damage" and force workers to "fix" it. Adding a new kind of "goodie" called the "rare material asteroid impact crater" or some such is also easy to do. Having new ones be generated periodically is also easy. Overriding what one gets from such a goody "hut" is also straight forward, although I don't currently have a good mechanism for encoding what sorts of things one can get from such a hut (I'm looking into options on that).

Python features from other mods we'd like to include


Now, then, about other threads/mods that could help us:

Some of these might just be useful. Some mods I looked at weren't especially relevant, though - and Fachy's *Very* realistic religions mod was positively scary!



Few things are easier then combining the features of mods which already work and are debugged.




(Under Investigation|Not Coded) Religion Research Mod (niffweed17) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=146445)
(Under Investigation|Not Coded) Military Bases Mod (TheLopez) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=154418)
(Under Investigation|Not Coded) Cultural Decay Mod (Bhruic) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=143051)
(Unconfirmed|Not Coded) Lost Units Mod (frontbrecher) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140601)
(Under Investigation|Not Coded) Settler Religion Mod (Bhruic) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=145729)
(Unconfirmed|Not Coded) Larger map sizes (dlordmagic) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=144777)
(Under Investigation|Not Coded) Random Events Mod (DireAussies) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=142157)

Maybe you could also use some elements from DireAussies random event mod, it already has earthquakes included, and there was some talk that it wasn't too diffiult to do meteors as well. The only problem is that the mod doesn't work anymore since the latest patch, but it might return.

All the special civics (apart from State of War) are designed to be used for short times. Once they have been de-selected, you cannot engage them again for between 20 and 50 turns. They all incur increasingly crippling penalties if you leave them on too long.




It is difficult to judge most of these civic issues because it is hard to know which can only be implemented in Python and which can be implemented via XML (without trying to implement them in XML myself).





(Passed Over|Unspecified) Foreign Policy Civics

Foreign policy civics modify your relations with other civs on the moon, the likelihood of treaty outcomes, &c, as well as how your population reacts to foreign culture and citizens.

There are a series of functions which seem to allow one to interfere in the AI's decision in the Python layer. I have not used or modified any of them before, but they would seem to give a great deal of promise with regard to how easy or hard it will be to implement these...


(Passed Over|Unspecified) Isolationism


For example, the Isolationism civic increases revenue from internal trade routes but reduces the number of foreign trade routes available, as well as reverting all foreign opinion to you to 'neutral'.



(Confirmed|Implemented) Civics Selection Screen Display issues

Apparently it's possible to add a sixth column to the civics screen: I've been reading about it HERE (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=145483).

I looked over the civics XML file and have been slightly depressed by it. Is there any way to add new variables into the game? Or will that need the SDK?
If so, then I'm happy to hammer out new civic values. In fact I'm doing it now as some of them obviously can't fit into the system.

And how do you mean 'they don't match up'?

I'm having a hard time putting into XML some of the things you listed. For example -1 happiness in cities over size 7 for Depotism. I'll find it eventualy....

I'm using a template for 7 civic classes right now. :) Maybe put Education for #7?

Most of Government is done.. :)

It only has 5 columns right now. I'll have to ask AG or Kael to help me make a 6th. I'm going to work on the buttons next, trying to organize all that Firaxis, AG, and Kael have made.

(Passed Over|Unspecified) Other Civics


Here's a rundown of things I'm not sure about for civics:

Despotism - having (-1) happiness in cities over size 7
Hierarchy - having (-10%) effectiveness in anit-capital distance cost improvements
Communism - No capital distance cost? I think they all default to zero
Democracy - (+1) prod/comm in tiles. This sounds more like a trait.
Decentralized - The (-20%) revenure from foreign trade
Black-n-White - Randomly lower/raise foreign opinion
Cooperation - raises foreign opinion and favourable treaties
Mediation - 3rd party treaties
World Government - automatic alliances and (+1) unhappiness with WG. Needs to be a religion I think to work
Disparate - The (-1) prod/comm. Same as Democracy
Xenophobia - foreign element unhappiness and no spread of foreign culture
Sentient Rights - Not sure about (+1) happiness in all cities.
Free Speech - same problem as WG. It might need to be a religion to work
Bureaucracy - Increased commerce from 5 largest
Closed Economy - Anything about foreign trade units.
Virtual Market - (-10%) revenue from routes

Cripes. That looks like a lot. I really did accomplish some stuff....

Belizan - here are the civics that you mentioned 10 pages ago that maybe you could look at. I think some of the modifiers will be Python based.

What should really happen is that woodelf should tell me which ones he's having trouble implementing in XML.

I've thought long and hard about great people. Ideally, I'd like to add the number of great people varieties currently available, to:




Most of these are pretty straightforward to code, albeit quite powerful 8), but... Teaching the AI to use them... Ok, each one in turn...




(Confirmed|Implemented) Great Artist (as normal)
(Confirmed|Implemented) Great Engineer (as normal)
(Confirmed|Implemented) Great Merchant (as normal - possibly can be changed)
(Confirmed|Implemented) Great Scientist (as normal)
(Confirmed|Not Coded) Great General (created randomly when an experienced unit enters combat)


Although I'm prepared to limit the modifications significantly if too little of this is possible. Thinking about it, it shouldn't be too difficult to change Great Prophets to Great Generals, given that both are able to build buildings.

We'll see.
@Apple: Good. My concern, however, is the Great General. Will the AI use him to upgrade units or will he simply be relegated to an academy-only version (since the AI presumably knows how to tell great people to build their buildings)? That is the question.

Also, how will the game respond to more varieties of great person?

Sorry, missed that bit the first time through. No - the AI will not know how to use these by default. You would have to edit the AI to be able to do that... which although you can do in python is probably best left to the SDK.

The game should respond fine to more tpyes of great people.

Hmm. I think it is probably best to leave the Great AI and Great General units to building unique improvements and researching technologies, at least unitl the SDK comes out.

The AI can be made to use them by simply writing the rules to trigger them ourselves. For instance, give it a 25% if you have 4 or more units of the same type in the same city as the Great General, automatically do the upgrade all untis of that type advance. Not great by any stretch, but...



(Confirmed|Implemented) Great Generals are spawned from experienced units winning battles.


Easily done.


(Unconfirmed|Unspecified) give a complete promotion line (say, all garrison promotions, or all city raider promotions) to a unit.


"Easy", popup to pick the unit, popup to pick the promotion. You'll have to hard code the list of promotion options, and any criteria you want for each line being available (techs, experience, etc.). Which means you have to explicitly spell them out to me.

As with most of these options, teaching the AI to use them is not possible. Instead, we'll ahve to write code to make these decisions for the AI by doing unit sweeps on PlayerBeginTurn() for each AI and using his Great Generals for him as we think is appropriate.

NOTE: Before I actually implemented this, I'd want to know which sorts of units were upgradeable to have which sorts of promotion chains?


(Unconfirmed|Unspecified) give one promotion to each unit in a stack.


Yeah, "easy". Same as 9.5.2, basically.

NOTE: With the same questions as above. Which promotions for which sorts of units?


(Unconfirmed|Unspecified) lead a unit to certain victory.


Ok, this is not so easy. My first question would be what sort of interface did you envision for this ability? We can't interrupt combat before it takes place. So our options for implementing something like this look like... Granting a promotion with some arbitrarily huge bonuses which we then remove after their next battle. Automatically full healing the unit after it's next battle. Respawning the unit if it dies in its next battle. (Any or all of these above). Note that even if we respawn it, we are only post-fixing the combat result. So, for instance, if your invulnerable unit was the last unit in a city, if it lost, it would still cause the city to be captured, and then we'd ahve to spawn the unit in a neighboring plot (like it withdrew, basically). Also, I'm pretty sure we can't override getBestDefender() for a Plot, so without a super promotion, we can't gaurantee that this unit will be chosen to defend the stack by the next attacker.
-------
Actually I have a thought for this now that I'm a few days older and wiser :), but I have to do a little experimentation. I should make a list of experiments I need to perform. Hrmm... That is, of course, assuming we want to do this at all. (And of course, teaching the AI to use it... Anyway...


(Unconfirmed|Not Coded) upgrade all instances of a certain unit for free.


Straightforward...


(Confirmed|Implemented) fortify a colony granting a massive defensive bonus plus an experience bonus for units garrisoned in the city.


The def bonus would need to be implemented as a building created by the Great General. Assuming that is acceptable, quite easy to do.


(Confirmed|Implemented) set up a military academy that incurs a smaller defensive bonus and a massive experience bonus for any unit built in the city.


Same issue as 9.5.6, if it is acceptable to have the Great General build a building in the colony that performs these feats, all is well (and the AI can be made to create it, by giving the building the appropriate value weightings).



(Confirmed|Implemented) Great AI (sort-of great prophet, but more powerful (and rarer)


Great AIs are supposed to be very rare crosses between engineers and scientists. Their spawning ought to be limited by some kind of criterion - religion/civic/technology or something. They appear rarely and convey great bonuses.



(v2|Research Required) Limit spawning based on civic/religion/technology


Hmm.. not sure about using a civic to modify GP %age appearance chances. You can, of course, make them rare by simply not adding much chance of them to each wonder or building (or specialist). I'll have to look into the civic aspect.
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Well, if we could make a building that gave AI GP, which would give AI %age, and add it on civic change, etc. But... yeah. AFAIK, GP production and appearance %age is tightly coupled.

NOW, we *could* sweep the player's units for a GP at the start of every turn, and if we find one of a certain type(types) we could make a roll to see if we should replace it with an AI GP based on an inspection of that player's current techs, civics, etc. This, having thought about it, is probably the best way to do this.


(Confirmed|Implemented) enter a city's networks as a super specialist, providing massive commerce and science benefits


Straightforward super specialist, isn't this?


(Confirmed|Implemented) enter a city's networks as a permanent resident, helping protect against spies and viruses, incurring a defensive bonus, reducing corruption/maintenance and increasing the science of the city


Hmm.. well, spawn an unmovable unit to spy for you, add a super specialist, a building (for the defensive bonus and maintenance)... Yeah.. doable, but ugly 8). I'll have to check when I go to implement it if I can condense this at all. Would you want this ability to be stackable? I.e. more then one Great AI could be added to a city in this fashion for increased effect?


(Unconfirmed|Research Required) Enter another civ's networks as a secret agent for only a few turns, granting access to that civ's LOS and cities.


Hrmm... offhand, I don't know if this is possible. I'll have to go look at the espionage functions.



(v2|Unspecified) Great Statesman (? tentative - only add if possible to add new great people)


Great Statesmen are supposed to be influential politicians. They can enact any one civic the player chooses, ensure success in a trade/negotiation with another civ (think Margaret Thatcher and the EU rebate here), etcetera, etcetera.




Hmmm... not sure about any of these. Activating a civic I *think* can be done by override CanDoCivic. Ensure trade/negotation with another civ should be doable by override the diplomacy ai, but may be arbitrarily difficult to get working :/ (i.e. a lot of work). Can't say about the etc., etc. 8).





So that means we need to add one type of great person or at least replace the Great Merchant (which will be hard and difficult). At the moment, we can replace Great Prophet with Great AI.




As I understand it, it is a well understood process at this point, to add a new type of specialist.

I'm doing the traits.xml at the same time as the leaders. Which reminds me,
Belizan, you CAN try your hand at the three civ. attributes (scientific, economic, independent) - see the Moon Bible (pg.4 right) for details. Essentially they're massive leader traity-type things that significantly alter how a civ plays the game, to help differentiate between the three groups of civs we have.


(Confirmed|Implemented) Scientific

Available to the five space agencies.
Bonuses: +20% science
+50% chance of generating great scientist
Can access scientific-type units
+1 health in colonies
All scientific improvements -50% cost
Scientific improvements generate happiness
Large numbers of military units generate unhappiness
Cannot access more advanced military units
+1 upkeep for military units


Well, let's see. 20% science, +1 Health, Scientific Improvements, Military unhappiness, Upkeep for military are all standard XML.
That leaves....
+50% chance of generating great scientist
Can access scientific-type units
Scientific improvements generate happiness
Large numbers of military units generate unhappiness
Cannot access more advanced military units

Of the five, i believe the fourth is XML codeable as well...



(Confirmed|Implemented) +50% chance of generating great scientist

Easy.

(Confirmed|Implemented) Can access scientific-type units

Easy.

(Confirmed|Implemented) Scientific improvements generate happiness

Not sure if this can be done via XML. I'm not sure it can be done via Python either, without some games. But I can take a look.

Well... apriori I can say that we can have two versions of each scientific buildings, one which provides happiness, one which doesnt, and make their availability dependent on this leadership trait. But there may be a more elegant solution, which I would have to investigate.

(Confirmed|Implemented) Large numbers of military units generate unhappiness

Can't this be done via XML? If not... well... I'd have to do some experimenting, but it is probably? doable. I'd need to know what you meant more explicitly though. Large numbers in the city? Large numbers owned by the faction? In/Out of cultural area?

(Confirmed|Implemented) Cannot access more advanced military units

Easy.


(Confirmed|Implemented) Economic

Available to the five corporations.
Bonuses: +5% science
+50% chance of generating great merchant
Can access trade units; 1 free trader unit
+1 commerce on squares already generating two
All commercial improvements -50% cost
Commercial improvements generate happiness
Happiness improvements are less effective
Cannot access more advanced scientific units
+1 upkeep for scientific units


Well, let's see. +5% science, +1 commerce, cheap Commerce Improvements are standard XML.
That leaves....
+50% chance of generating great merchant
Can access trade units; 1 free trader unit
+1 commerce on squares already generating two
Commercial improvements generate happiness
Happiness improvements are less effective
Cannot access more advanced scientific units
+1 upkeep for scientific units



(Confirmed|Implemented) +50% chance of generating great merchant

Easy.

(Confirmed|Implemented) Can access trade units; 1 free trader unit

The limited access is easy. Not sure what you mean by a free trader unit. Just starts with one?

(Confirmed|Implemented) Commercial improvements generate happiness

Not sure if this can be done via XML. I'm not sure it can be done via Python either, without some games. But I can take a look.

I can say that we can have two versions of each commercial building, one which provides happiness, one which doesnt, and make their availability dependent on this leadership trait. But there may be a more elegant solution (possibly using changeExtraHappiness()), which I would have to investigate.

(Confirmed|Implemented) Happiness improvements are less effective

Same basic issues as 10.2.3.

(Confirmed|Implemented) Cannot access more advanced scientific units

Easy.

(Confirmed|Implemented) +1 upkeep for scientific units

Hrmm.. Really not sure about this one. I might be able to fake it, but I don't personally know the upkeep rules all that well. I'd need to get a good understanding of them to be able to make this adjustment by hand. If I wanted to propogate that effect into the appropriate advisor screens, I could potentially do that as well, but basically we're talking a lot of work. I do not think there is a way to tweak the upkeep cost of a unit dynamicly, I would have to research this more. On the unit bloat side, however, we could handle this like the buildings. Make two versions of the science units with different upkeep values, and route people's options for training them based on their leadership attributes.


(Confirmed|Implemented) Independent

Available to the five coalitions
Bonuses: 2 free military units per colony
+50% chance of generating great general
Can access more military units
+2 culture in colonies
All culture improvements -50% cost
Military improvements generate happiness
Scientific improvements are less effective
Cannot access more advanced commercial units
+1 upkeep for commercial units


Well, let's see. bonus culture, cheap culture improvements are standard XML.
That leaves....
2 free military units per colony
+50% chance of generating great general
Can access more military units
Military improvements generate happiness
Scientific improvements are less effective
Cannot access more advanced commercial units
+1 upkeep for commercial units



(Confirmed|Implemented) 2 free military units per colony

Easy enough, I'm sure, but I'd like a better description of how this is supposed to work. Or by free, do you mean upkeep wise?

(Confirmed|Implemented) +50% chance of generating great general

Easy enough, I suppose, but I thought Great Generals only were awarded on the basis of winning battles?

(Confirmed|Implemented) Can access more military units

Easy.

(Confirmed|Implemented) Military improvements generate happiness

Not sure if this can be done via XML. I'm not sure it can be done via Python either, without some games. But I can take a look.

I can say that we can have two versions of each military building, one which provides happiness, one which doesnt, and make their availability dependent on this leadership trait. But there may be a more "elegant" solution (possibly using changeExtraHappiness()), which I would have to investigate.

(Confirmed|Implemented) Scientific improvements are less effective

Really not sure about this one. Short of going in and back patching the science progress, this is hard. Now, making a shadow line of "Independent" Science buildings and limiting Independents to building them. That's easy.

(Confirmed|Implemented) Cannot access more advanced commercial units

Easy.

(Confirmed|Implemented) +1 upkeep for commercial units

Hrmm.. Really not sure about this one (same as 10.2.6). I might be able to fake it, but I don't personally know the upkeep rules all that well. I'd need to get a good understanding of them to be able to make this adjustment by hand. If I wanted to propogate that effect into the appropriate advisor screens, I could potentially do that as well, but basically we're talking a lot of work. I do not think there is a way to tweak the upkeep cost of a unit dynamicly, I would have to research this more. On the unit bloat side, however, we could handle this like the buildings. Make two versions of the commercial units with different upkeep values, and route people's options for training them based on their leadership attributes.

These are the ideas which are still in the conceptual stages. Such ideas do not fit easily into any particular classification because we have not decided enough about how we want them to work, or how we want to implement them.


Lagrange Points


Lagrange points.
Consider them, as they are ideal places for orbital colonies.
Maybe you could build a space-settler that would be able to 'settle' empty space, creating a trade link between Moon and Earth? A World-Wonder? "L1"?

A lagrange point station (or control of it) could be a good idea for a wonder.


Given we now have advanced to having our own map generator script, we can go one better. We can put in a map option to pick a number of settlable LaGrange points, and then actually build them on the map behind some impassable terrain, off to one side. The map stores the details of where they are in the ScriptData of some object, probably the map itself. Then, when the right techs become available, we can allow a city to "launch" (build) a sat or a station into that lagrange point, which, when built, we programmatically move to the appropriate LaGrange point. The AI will be a little confused by this, and we'll have to code up some sort of "pick a plan for LaGrange points" methodology for the code to decide for the AI where to send it's space hardware, but, all in all it's quite doable. More problematic from the AI perspective would be giving players access to spaceships that could potentially leave at their leisure the Moon and head into space to go to various LaGrange points. Coding it is easy, but making the AI understand is... not possible AFAIK without the SDK.

For that matter, if we were feeling really crazy we could make a whole space is sea analogue for ships and movement and sat colonies, but.. well, anyway... It would take some abstractions and conventions to get even a vague system of "space" or low orbit working. Probably better to wait for the SDK for that, if ever. Not to mention I've wandered pretty seriously off topic.


Technology Tree Rendering

@Belizan - From my limited understanding the tech boxes on the tech tree come from the XML files with some coordinates. Do the arrows that pretty up the tech tree come from Python? If so, would you be willing to look at the tech tree once I've gotten it done and add arrows to connect the techs?
I thought all that was done from XML, but the code which generates it is in Python AFAIK. I can take a look if you like.
The whole tech tree is generated dynamically in python using the information in the xml files. The process is quite clever.

One thing to note while adding techs - the order that you put them in is important. If you do it wrong, all the arrows show up squiffy, and the tech chooser just doesn't work! I've a feeling the rule is that at least one of a tech's prequesites has to be before it in the file, but I'd check in the tutorials forum to be sure.
Once we get to look at the tech tree Belizan might be able to pretty it up with the lines being drawn in the correct spot, if that's Python. But that's a cosmetic thing for a long way down the road.

Do we need to code the switch from 1st/2nd era when we lose contact with Earth and have to survive on our own? Is that an event that can be triggered, or needs to be?

I think we need to keep Belizan on retainer and use him after a bit of playtesting. :) Right now it's hard to visualize what needs coding without ever setting foot on the Moon.


Welcome.. To the Dark Side.. of the Moon...

A question: Is there going to be any distinction between Earth-side and not Earth-side? Maybe you could build things in secret or something on the other side, but you get a trade bonus on the near side.

Oh, by the way, interesting idea, The Great Apple.

I don't know how we'd implement this, however. Probably better to keep it simple, but, Belizan, is it possible? (I'm thinking post-Alpha here).
It's possable ;)

About debris - that too would be possable, although I'm not sure it sounds very plausable.
The moon rotates about it's axis with a period equal the period of rotation about the Earth. In other words, about half of the moon faces the earth all the time, and the other half never does.

Now this would create differences between the Earth-side people and the far-side people. For example, if you were on the far side observers from earth wouldn't be able to see what you were doing, and on the near side you... err... get a beautiful view of the earth!
Well, if we defined a set area of the map to be "earth facing" we could by hand grant them a commerce bonus every turn or add a commerce trade route to earth programmatically. I'm not sure what "building in secret" means. Basically, I'd need more information on what effect you were looking for :).

Merged--Radar Tower, Air Field, Fuel, Turrets, City Architecture (Mega-"Improvements" -- Bunkers and Biodomes), Artillery, Tech-based Global Unit strength modifiers, Great General, Great AI, Leadership Traits, Civics for Leadership Traits, Leadership-trait based tech exclusions, Lancer unit capture, He3 dependent Building gold production, Unit Surrender, Terrain Attrition, ModComp merges, City Grid Display, Labels

My current order of battle as it were, based on the information I have at the moment...

* Random Events (1.1, 1.2, 1.4-1.6)
* Supply Routes
* Display capabilities for supply routes and resource dependent buildings
* Break Downs
* Salvage, Crash Site and Impact Craters
-----
2.8 SATs and AT-SATs

All others require more information.

All your posting slots are belong to us!

I'll throw another idea at you that I didn't see mentioned above...the idea of a "dummy" civ to trade with. We have a potential workaround for the energy for food trade with Earth, but what if we had an all-powerful neutral, unplayable, unrepresented civ that traded energy harvested for food until a certain python event rendered them inaccessible? Is this possible or even needed?

6. (Unconfirmed|Not Coded) The occasional impact with something reasonably big might be intersting too. It is estimated that over 1000 tons of material lands on Luna every year!

I would impliment this as a random event that occurs every x number of turns were x is a random numer between approximatly 2 and 10(should depend on map size). When the event occurs a randon square would be chosen as the target and the size of the debris (small or large).

Small debris will destroy certian inprovements like agea farms and biodomes. It will also damage units on the square(up to a maximun of ~ 5 units).it is aslo possible that certain units are more likely to be damaged more depending on their ability to see the falling debris and run away. It also changes the train type to cratered if the terrain is either dust or dust sea. Probability of spawning a goody hut.
Large debris will be fairly rare and may form a crater rim(terrain type). It will strike on a 2X2 tile region and will destroy all improvements. It will also infict a large damage on units and may destroy them(up to ~7 units). will severly reduce the population of a city in its strike area.

I could code this when I have time(propably not for a while) but if if you have time you can do it instead.(some things described may need to be tweeked to balance the game)

Looking good, Belizan!

I'll go through this with a fine-tooth comb and confirm things for you - there's FAR too much red up there! ;)

1) Random events:
#s 1, 2, 4 5, and 6 can be confirmed

2) Improvements:
#s 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 can be confirmed

3) Meta-civs:
#2 can be confirmed

4) I'll post seperately about mega-improvements.

5.1) Unit abilities
place #1 under 'further investigation' and confirm #2.

5.2) More abilities
confirm #s 3, 5, 7 and 10.
#s 4 & 11 under further investigation.

6) barbarians
#s 1 and 3 under further investigation.
Discard #2. NO ALIENS!

7) other mods
#s 1, 2, 3, 5 and 7 worth further investigation.

8) civics
#a 1, 2 and 3 under further investigation.

9) great people
#s 5 and 6 confirmed.
5.1, .6 and .7 confirmed.
6.2 and .3 confirmed. 6.1 desireable too. Perhaps as well as becoming a super-specialist, why not have it build a more powerful version of the Resident AI city improvement?
#7 desireable but not urgent.

10) Leadership super-traits
1, 2 and 3 all confirmed and highly desireable. We need some way of definitely distinguishing between the three types of civ and forcing the AIs to act radically differently for each one.
As many trait bonuses/penalties as possible, although I'm willing to revise them if some/many are unrealistic within the engine. All, however, are highly desireable and preferably *necessary*. If these are impossible we need a very similar mechanism put in place pronto.

City architecture to follow!

NOTE: I still think in Civ-II terms, so more often than not, when I say 'improvement' I mean 'building' or 'city improvement', *not* 'tile improvement'. This is doubly confusing because we have a biodome building AND a biodome tile upgrade.
Okay, when I first visualised the two mega-improvements, my thinking was roughly this:
1. Okay, we know that some improvements, when built, change the graphical appearance of the city on the main map, i.e. their graphic appears among the other buildings of the city.
2. With that in mind, there will presumably be a number of different ways of building colonies on the moon...
See where I'm going with this?

Basically, the biodome and bunker buildings convey a number of great bonuses and penalties (see the moon bible for details) and significantly alter the character of a colony. When they're built, the graphic of the colony on the main map changes also. If the bunkers improvement is built, the colony becomes a series of armoured, buttressed bunkers. If the biodome improvement is built, the colony is surrounded by a low circular wall and entirely covered by a transparent dome structure. These improvements, in other words, do not just appear with the other buildings with the colony's grahpic; they actually chnge it radically.

As one can reasonably guess, the biodome improvement adds health and happiness, while encouraging science. However, it essentially nullifies any defensive bonuses of the colony - if it's punctured more than a few times, it could collapse.
On the other hand, the bunkers improvement add defensive bonuses, reduces war weariness and increases production. However, it adds unhealthiness and slightly increases unhappiness.

That is only a rough outline, however. One thing I would like to stress is that the two should be balanced enough for players to make a serious decision with each colony, rather than just having all their cities as bunkers. Similarly, it would not do for the AI to have all THEIR cities as bunkers either. There must be enough differentiation, and enough balance, to make both human and computer make a choice with each colony.

Of course, they do not *have* to build EITHER improvement in a colony.

The reason why I asked if it was possible to keep the swaying trees graphic was so that we could have ?(as well as the buildings) perhaps the occasional tree swaying gently beneath the transparent, magnesium-reinforced piezoelectric polymer of a biodome? It would look fantastic if done well.

The main stumbling block with this is that so far we do not have a suitable building mesh to use as a biodome. We have the colosseum building, but that doesn't have a dome on top. The word is 'bioDOME' so it has to be, ah, DOME-shaped.

Attatched are three images, all collages from my Civ-II FW moon mod. The first shows, from left to right, the farmland (2nd level food tile improvement) equivalent (the tile biodome) and two city-graphics. The biodome city improvement should look rather like a cross between the first and second graphic. The third graphic is a design for a series of interlinked biodomes.

The second image shows four different designs for bunkered colonies. The citadel, fortress-style should be easily apparent.

The third image shows two potential designs for colonies that do not have either mega-improvement.

I hope that particular attention is payed to the first of the three!
And I also hope this has been rather helpful.

Hrmm... Well, this doesn't exactly answer my questions, though, JBG. Can you switch from one mega-improvement to the other? I.e. Can I switch from a bunker base to a biodome colony? Or vice versa? Is it more expensive to switch over or the same price as building it in the first place? And most important, understanding that we will have to code the decision process for the AI ourselves, what criteria would you like to use for the AI to decide which to build? Or should we make it random for the moment, and develop our criteria after we've played the mod more?

What I have gotten from this, so far, is that a colony can be built without either mega-improvement, and said mega-improvements are built after founding.

I also read a lot about graphics issues, which I'd love to say are not my purview, except that I've read just enough of the Python code in the bowels of the system to know that there is, in fact, some arcane code that deals with city displays. I have no idea how it works, other then it seemed confusing when I glanced at it. Sufficiently that I'm not even sure that's what it really does 8). I haven't looked at modifying it for any purpose, and therein, of all the things we've talked about doing, tweaking that code is sort of the last thing I'd want to do. I know of only one person, I think it's C. Roland, whose played with city graphics to date. Maybe we can get his help on this aspect of the problem. Barring that, I would leave questions about the physical display characteristics of the feature for a later time, after the functionality is in place. It's a question that is relatively unbounded for me :/. I'm not saying I can't figure it out :). I'm just saying it would be "hard". And more significantly a high work to return ratio item. So I'd rather put it off, and do the easier pieces first.

Fine. To be honest I'd not thought about switching. Probably not - or make it extremely expensive. I'd say not, though. Either/or. But... should we make it possible (or desireable) to sell the improvements? I think not. It should be permanent (at least for now).

The criteria the AI should consider would be how it would alter the city's income and growth, how it would improve the city's usefulness, &c. Random would be nice, but having a militaristic AI have large numbers of biodomes would seem odd.

The mega-improvements are built in the manner of normal improvements, yes. The city walls graphic stretches all the way around a city, so there ought not to be a problem with size, but I agree the lack of modelling is frustrating. Would it not be possible to proggram the game to just slap a flat image over

So I think that we should definitely include the two, but leave the massive graphical alterations until later. The two should have the relavent militaristic/not flags, but there should be some way of preventing the AI from having *all* bunkers... I think random, for the sake of simplicity, would be best as a placeholder.

Aye, aye, Cap'n.

On the subject of random events, I think that mines should have a 1% chance of triggering a moonquake, and boreholes should have a 5% chance. The moonquake destroys terrain improvements in a nine-square area centred on the mine/borehole in question. It could also cause minor damage to colonies.

The dust storm I think we can drop. There's no atmoshpere on the moon and such storms would only be triggered by impacts or by spaceships landing.

Solar storms are much better. Random deaths of foot units would be good, and perhaps a drain on all players' economies to represent disrupted communications?

Stuff falling from the sky is also a must. Put simply, for minor stuff, random minor damage on any unit or colonies. Once the Electroplasma Shield (or equivalent) has been researched, this can be nullified for the player in question. For rather larger stuff, again, a nine-square area of effect, and this time an ICBM effect minus radiation. The impact square/ground zero/whatever should be turned into a one-square crater rim square, turning into a small crater. If possible a mask to reduce this happening to colonies would be good.

On a side note, would it be possible to have catastrophic consequences if either of the two mega-improvements is destroyed by bombardment or combat? Imagine the consequences if the biodome was punctured too many times (there would be at least some capacity for damage control). I think we touched on that on the main thread...

Sorry to jump in like that, but wouldn't it be better to distinguish between tile improvements and base improvements in names?

ie, instead of 2 times biodome, call the improvement agrodome and the base structure "habitation dome" or "base dome" or something. Same for the bunkers. "Outpost (Bunker)" and "Perimeter Bunker" come to mind.

Sorry to jump in like that, but wouldn't it be better to distinguish between tile improvements and base improvements in names?

ie, instead of 2 times biodome, call the improvement agrodome and the base structure "habitation dome" or "base dome" or something. Same for the bunkers. "Outpost (Bunker)" and "Perimeter Bunker" come to mind.

Don't be sorry. That's a good idea. Keep posting anything that comes to mind. ;)

That is a very good idea.

Okay:
Tile biodome = Agrodome.
City improvement remains Biodome.

Tile improvement = outpost. I wasn't aware of it ever being called bunker.
City improvement remains Bunkers. PLURAL.

Okay? Thanks, btw, GeoModder.

I see you had been playing a little OUTPOST there JBG, great game and ahead of its time. we are having issues taking a flat NIF model and plopping a picture on top of it, see the ugly collector model, we can TRY to do this but like Belizan said, the code that places buildings in a city is weird, I dont know if there is a way to turn it off completely and replace it with one model.

Belizan - Can you code this....

1 - Make is so there is no research for the first 25 turns and also give everyone a free colonist at the 25th turn?

How about attracting colonists by doing trade with Earth? Say from a given number of "commerce" with the homeplanet, your colony (faction) is looked upon more favourable by the public and more people eager to join your operation, so a colonist arrives (spawns) at your spaceport. And, as with Great Person Points, you could increase the next limit at which point a new colonist comes over.

It would give more intencive to use those solar power improvement I (rushed) readed about.

How about attracting colonists by doing trade with Earth? Say from a given number of "commerce" with the homeplanet, your colony (faction) is looked upon more favourable by the public and more people eager to join your operation, so a colonist arrives (spawns) at your spaceport. And, as with Great Person Points, you could increase the next limit at which point a new colonist comes over.

It would give more intencive to use those solar power improvement I (rushed) readed about.

More great ideas! Could a Great Person be a colonist? That would be so cool!

What I meant was a "script" that let a colonist spawn when a certain amount of commerce was gathered, and then increase that limit for the next one. Easy to regulate the amount of (potential) colonists and it doesn't interfere with the other Great Beings.

Fundamentalism
Medium upkeep
Can train state religion units in any city
-50% state religion buildings upkeep
State religion units +2 experience
No spread of non-state religion
Double effectiveness of state religion buildings
Inverse effect for non-state religion buildings
Once de-selected, cannot declare fundamentalism again for 50 turns

Do you guys plan on bringing upkeep back in this mod? Civ4 vanilla has got rid of this concept.

National Alert
Medium upkeep
Foreign units may not come within 1 square of major cities
All units +1 LOS
+1 movement for non-military units
+2 happiness for prisons and courthouses
-1 happiness in all cities after 5th turn
+1 upkeep for military units
Once de-selected, cannot declare fundamentalism again for 20 turns


And I gather that this is an error in the bible? "Cannot declare Nationalism for 20 turns" instead?

LOL, did someone play Nexus - The Jupiter Incident here? Orbital Limited and OSEC as civs. ;)

Are you volunteering to script it? :D

It sounds good. Can it be cut off when we get cut off from the Earth?

Are you volunteering to script it? :D

It sounds good. Can it be cut off when we get cut off from the Earth?

Me scripting? If you can wait a few months I might come up with an error-prone version (unusable thus). Ideas enough, ability not. :blush:

But I suppose it's easy enough to put an override on this if a cut off happens.


Btw, you guys are planning to let unworked plots (tiles) have food output? On the Moon? :crazyeye: What's the reasoning behind that? (reading the Bible as I speak so...)

Btw, you guys are planning to let unworked plots (tiles) have food output? On the Moon? :crazyeye: What's the reasoning behind that? (reading the Bible as I speak so...)

Nononono. If you check the main thread that's what I've been doing today...getting rid of the food. :)

Will do. ;)

I think I brushed over a section where there was a discussion on how to implement Lagrange stations and stuff.

I wonder if, with the SDK, it wouldn't be possible to put (program) things like that on the zoomed out worldview. This sounds difficult tho, but in Alpha Centauri there is a sortlike thing.

5.10 (Confirmed|Pending Feedback) Tech-based Global Unit strength modifiers

I am all for certain techs increasing the strength of certain units. what I think should not be implimented at all is having the tech leader get bonus strength as it will give the tech leader to much of an advantage. He would have more advanced units plus a bonus strength on top of that.

Belizan - Can you code this....

1 - Make is so there is no research for the first 25 turns and also give everyone a free colonist at the 25th turn?

I think so. We can put it in a tech or a civic the no research thing, and then force people to use it until we don't want them to. The unit is trivial.

How about attracting colonists by doing trade with Earth? Say from a given number of "commerce" with the homeplanet, your colony (faction) is looked upon more favourable by the public and more people eager to join your operation, so a colonist arrives (spawns) at your spaceport. And, as with Great Person Points, you could increase the next limit at which point a new colonist comes over.

It would give more intencive to use those solar power improvement I (rushed) readed about.

More great ideas! Could a Great Person be a colonist? That would be so cool!

Both of these are possible.

I think so. We can put it in a tech or a civic the no research thing, and then force people to use it until we don't want them to. The unit is trivial.

I think a better way to do this is for the firsit 25 turns have python check the research production and then subtract this number from this.

I am all for certain techs increasing the strength of certain units. what I think should not be implimented at all is having the tech leader get bonus strength as it will give the tech leader to much of an advantage. He would have more advanced units plus a bonus strength on top of that.

Well what does that feature mean then? Or are you just saying you don't like that feature?

Are we loading you up enough yet Belizan? :p

I think a better way to do this is for the firsit 25 turns have python check the research production and then subtract this number from this.

I can reset it to 0 too (I believe), but that's not going to create good user expectation. It will *look* like they should be producing research, they just won't ever accumulate any.

Well what does that feature mean then? Or are you just saying you don't like that feature?

I mean that if you research a certain technology the strength of one type on unit should be changed(say defence cannons). This can be done buy giving all the defence cannons a strength promotion when the tech is researched.

Are we loading you up enough yet Belizan? :p

Heheh... Yeah, could be 8).

I mean that if you research a certain technology the strength of one type on unit should be changed(say defence cannons). This can be done buy giving all the defence cannons a strength promotion when the tech is researched.

Sure, although I was thinking a special line of promotions called something "catchy" like.. Tech Edge or some such

I was also thinking of making it "dynamic" and relative.

So, let's say that there are 5 techs which improve defense cannons....

Ok, nevermind, no point in it being relative I guess. Anyway, yeah, the idea was.. you get a tech, I give all units (or all units of a particular type if you like) a promotion.

Ok, nevermind, no point in it being relative I guess. Anyway, yeah, the idea was.. you get a tech, I give all units (or all units of a particular type if you like) a promotion.

yes that is what I had in mind.

Well spotted, Geomodder! I thought I'd seen them before somewhere. Nice to see another Nexus player out there in the wilderness! (present company excepted of course :D)

Well spotted, Geomodder! I thought I'd seen them before somewhere. Nice to see another Nexus player out there in the wilderness! (present company excepted of course :D)

Didn't you realize? I'm the GeoModder on the official forum. :D :lol:

Belizan - could you code up a script where research is simply not allowed until say turn 25? Force all of the gold to go to treasury or disappear (ie - back to Earth)? It may not be what we end up wanting to do, but I'd like to see how that plays out. Thanks.

edit - And could you drop a colonist into all of the players' lone city at the same turn?

Ok, first in what will be a long line of demo mods.



This one is for radar towers and air fields, with the air defense stuff put in. Check it out, send me feedback.

BTW, how do I get a reference to my attachment somewhere other then the end of the message? :(. I don't have to post and re-edit once I have a link info do I?

Ok, first in what will be a long line of demo mods.



This one is for radar towers and air fields, with the air defense stuff put in. Check it out, send me feedback.

BTW, how do I get a reference to my attachment somewhere other then the end of the message? :(. I don't have to post and re-edit once I have a link info do I?

Not to be obtuse...but what do we do with it? Does it go right into our current build?

Not to be obtuse...but what do we do with it? Does it go right into our current build?

we are going to have to be careful when we add this as some of the files he edit have already been edited in our mod. the changes he made in these files have to be copied and them pasted in the appropiate place in the already edited files.

we are going to have to be careful when we add this as some of the files he edit have already been edited in our mod. the changes he made in these files have to be copied and them pasted in the appropiate place in the already edited files.

Yeah I thought some of the Python event files were simply super big and kept getting stuff added to them. I volunteer not to be the first to add this! :D

Belizan - could you code up a script where research is simply not allowed until say turn 25? Force all of the gold to go to treasury or disappear (ie - back to Earth)? It may not be what we end up wanting to do, but I'd like to see how that plays out. Thanks.

edit - And could you drop a colonist into all of the players' lone city at the same turn?

You mean something like this?

I still think a forced civic would be better.

Not sure if there's a way for me to force their tax rate. Haven't found one yet.

we should sent belizan our mod so he can make incorporated his mod into it himeself. I will pm him the link to it shortly.

Not to be obtuse...but what do we do with it? Does it go right into our current build?

It is a loadable mod in its own right.

I am doing vanilla testbed construction right now. Which means I'm building each feature separately in it's own mod built against the vanilla "mod" (in so much as is possible). If you don't understand why I need to do that, just assume it's a coding requirement for testing. Once we have features the way we like them I will build a merge mod of our desired features to be integrated with the overall mod, with instructions on how to plug in the unit classes/types/etc. in a master config file. Most of these mods thus far, however, are pretty easy to plug in with even rudimentary Python knowledge. Not saying that you should! Just.. that you could...

Elsewhere, I tested. The AI does not appear set off onUnitSelected. I will want to do a few more tests before I declare it to be fact, but it looks very discouraging so far.

Elsewhere, I tested. The AI does not appear set off onUnitSelected. I will want to do a few more tests before I declare it to be fact, but it looks very discouraging so far.

:mad: arrg thats to bad.

we should sent belizan our mod so he can make incorporated his mod into it himeself. I will pm him the link to it shortly.

Yep, I was thinking the same thing. It might help him consolidate the python stuff too.

Yep, I was thinking the same thing. It might help him consolidate the python stuff too.

Consolidating the Python stuff is easy (and should be done by me anyway to avoid conflicts and "merge" errors). It's getting the XML-based unit info, adding the build info, unit classes, improvements, etc. etc. that is a pain.

:mad: arrg thats to bad.

I've confirmed it. It definitely is not triggered.

Another problem. If you have a "plane" over a "water" square when you convert it back into an actual water square, the DOMAIN_LAND unit blows up.

we should sent belizan our mod so he can make incorporated his mod into it himeself. I will pm him the link to it shortly.

Mmm.. I hope you arn't waiting for me to do that? It doesn't make any sense to me to do that at this juncture. Just test out the mods I put up and see if you like how the features work. Adding features piecemeal to the still in flux master mod file seems incredibly inefficient to me. I'd rather spend my time coding up more features.

Belizan, how is the artillery coming i would like to get that into playtesting as there is no counter to stacks of doom right now. let me know i know its tough managing this thread but it woudl be great to get some of your genius coding into the pre alpha

Belizan, how is the artillery coming i would like to get that into playtesting as there is no counter to stacks of doom right now. let me know i know its tough managing this thread but it woudl be great to get some of your genius coding into the pre alpha

Figures everyone wants everything done on the first day :).

Right now I'm vacillating on Dinner. Once I figure out what to eat, I'm going to do the Mega-Improvements, and then take a look at Artillery, assuming I get that far 8).

mmm food, i think ill go have a burrito, figures, you build the thread they will come, alright well i think artillery will be more useful than mega improvements but thats me

Mmm.. I hope you arn't waiting for me to do that? It doesn't make any sense to me to do that at this juncture. Just test out the mods I put up and see if you like how the features work. Adding features piecemeal to the still in flux master mod file seems incredibly inefficient to me. I'd rather spend my time coding up more features.

no we arent waiting for you. we can wait until we have a whole buch of stuff confimed and coded before it is added to the actual moon mod

no we arent waiting for you. we can wait until we have a whole buch of stuff confimed and coded before it is added to the actual moon mod

Cool. I do need someone, preferrably the people who sponsored the ideas in question to check the implementation of the various features as I post them up.

Also, I take it that 25 turns of no research thing was a waste of time? :/

Ok, I've been looking over the Mega-Improvements, and we have some problems, I think.

Biodome
Mega-improvement. Determines city architecture.
Stores 25% of food after growth
+2 health
+3 happiness
+1 food in all squares with at least 2
+1 commerce in all squares with at least 3
Removes all defensive bonuses from the city
Can be destroyed by hostile troops
If destroyed, results in loss of ½ population and all food

Bunker
Mega-improvement. Determines city architecture.
Stores 25% of food after growth
+1 happiness
+2 production
+25% defensive bonus
+1 production in all squares with at least 3
Removes happiness bonus from Biodome terrain improvement
Can be breached by hostile fire
If breached, results in loss of 1 population and defensive bonuses

The food storage, defense, happiness, health, production are all easy and can be done from XML.

I'm not sure what the breached by hostile fire bit means, but assuming that's a captured/destroyed on city taken issue, I *think* the pop and food losses can be done. No sure about the defensive bonuses, I'd want to have a more clear idea about what you meant.

The issue comes with the "Removes happiness bonus from Biodome terrain improvement", and +yield in all squares with at least # features. Neither of those seem to be triggerable on a per city basis or by a building. Unless someone else has a clever idea?

Ok, I have one possible way. I can dynamicly add or remove Free Specialists by type. So we can make specialist types for the extra yield check onEndPlayerTurn() and adjust the number appropriately for the bonus. It's ugly, but it will work :/

I can also change the "Extra Happiness" in a city (which could be used to counter-act Agrodome effects for the Bunker), but I'm entirely sure how it works. This would also require a per turn check, and have the disadvantage that it would not seem like the Agrodome was less effective, just that the city would be mysteriously more unhappy.

Cool. I do need someone, preferrably the people who sponsored the ideas in question to check the implementation of the various features as I post them up.

Also, I take it that 25 turns of no research thing was a waste of time? :/

Another my bad. :( There's always sunspot activity like in SMAC. Can we do something to simulate that?

Another my bad. :( There's always sunspot activity like in SMAC. Can we do something to simulate that?

What do think the effect of sun spot activity is?

Any thoughts on the mega-improvements?

What do think the effect of sun spot activity is?

Communications, equipment frying, ?????

I like the old communications black out of SMAC. Sucked when you wanted peace and couldn't negotiate for 20 turns!

Any thoughts on the mega-improvements?

They look good. I wouldn't get too worked up if certain things can't be coded. JBG was writing down every possible thing that could happen so it would be on the table. Things can always be changed in the bible to correspond to what is actually in the game.

They look good. I wouldn't get too worked up if certain things can't be coded. JBG was writing down every possible thing that could happen so it would be on the table. Things can always be changed in the bible to correspond to what is actually in the game.

Well, I was more thinking... So I can simulate the effect by adjusting the number of free specialists in the city, but... Given how ugly that is... Do we really want to do that?

The issue comes with the "Removes happiness bonus from Biodome terrain improvement", and +yield in all squares with at least # features. Neither of those seem to be triggerable on a per city basis or by a building. Unless someone else has a clever idea?

Well, if the biodome literally is breached, it no longer functions anymore and can be considered destroyed. If the facility itself is gone (I presume it is a facility) so will surely its effects?
Second for the +yield. This sounds like a variation on the Colossus benefit (+1 commerce in all watertiles). I suppose the only difficulty here is if such a feature can exist in only the cities which have a biodome. You could make it a global thing (in program terms) with a check if the Biodome exists or not to let it take effect.

Well, if the biodome literally is breached, it no longer functions anymore and can be considered destroyed. If the facility itself is gone (I presume it is a facility) so will surely its effects?
Second for the +yield. This sounds like a variation on the Colossus benefit (+1 commerce in all watertiles). I suppose the only difficulty here is if such a feature can exist in only the cities which have a biodome. You could make it a global thing (in program terms) with a check if the Biodome exists or not to let it take effect.

Actually you can't. There is no way that I know of to programmatically patch into the economic calculations performed by the engine.

Ok.

What if the Biodome and Bunker mega-facility are programmed as a sort of national project then? for the Biodome it could have an effect like Wallstreet (percentage increase of the currency output) and for the Bunker the Chitchen Itza (or was it Angkor Wat?) effect, increased defense.
Of course presuming that those national projects can add food, health, production and happy faces.

Ok.

What if the Biodome and Bunker mega-facility are programmed as a sort of national project then? for the Biodome it could have an effect like Wallstreet (percentage increase of the currency output) and for the Bunker the Chitchen Itza (or was it Angkor Wat?) effect, increased defense.
Of course presuming that those national projects can add food, health, production and happy faces.

Well, we could set them to add a %age of production. or a %age of some sort of commerce benefit, but that's not what JBG had listed, and it's meaning is somewhat different. Which is why I'm looking to hear what he thinks. I can actually simulate his *exact* wording. It's just ugly as hell :(. Not to discourage more creative solutions :).

Belizan? Is this something that needs python or can be done in python?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3692149&postcount=5

Belizan? Is this something that needs python or can be done in python?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3692149&postcount=5

Could be, but other then the part where the gold amount is based on He3 resources owned, that could all be done in XML (other then the even trigger itself). You can make buildings obsolete when a tech is discovered, and you can make buildings produce gold.

Could be, but other then the part where the gold amount is based on He3 resources owned, that could all be done in XML (other then the even trigger itself). You can make buildings obsolete when a tech is discovered, and you can make buildings produce gold.

Yeah, I did the XML part, but I'd like to see you get more by owning 3 resources than 2. Not a high priority though.

Yeah, I did the XML part, but I'd like to see you get more by owning 3 resources than 2. Not a high priority though.

What formula would you like?

What formula would you like?

If you have the building then the amount of gold = 2 x (the number of He3 plant improvements within city radius). Or, if this is too much then there could simply be one calculation for all of your cities put onto the Lunar Command (Palace) where amount of gold = 2 x (global number of He3 improvements). This will get shut off during the loss of contact in XML.

If you have the building then the amount of gold = 2 x (the number of He3 plant improvements within city radius). Or, if this is too much then there could simply be one calculation for all of your cities put onto the Lunar Command (Palace) where amount of gold = 2 x (global number of He3 improvements). This will get shut off during the loss of contact in XML.

None too difficult. You sure this is how you want it to work? 8)

None too difficult. You sure this is how you want it to work? 8)

Honestly, not sure at all. :blush:

I'm just throwing out ideas to see what everyone else thinks and to see if you could do them if need be.

Honestly, not sure at all. :blush:

I'm just throwing out ideas to see what everyone else thinks and to see if you could do them if need be.

Yeah I can do it, as long as you don't make me display the updated gold amount in the city screen (not saying I can't, just that that is a far, far harder problem then the code for the building itself).

You want to only give the bonus if the He3 is connected to the city? What about the question of having the right improvement on it?

Yeah I can do it, as long as you don't make me display the updated gold amount in the city screen (not saying I can't, just that that is a far, far harder problem then the code for the building itself).

You want to only give the bonus if the He3 is connected to the city? What about the question of having the right improvement on it?

It definitely needs the improvement.

It definitely needs the improvement.

Does it have to be connected? Does it have to be worked?

The Helium3 resource gets a Helium3 improvement built by a worker. When connected by a road the city gets the resource. We hope. :)

Ok, here is a demo of the city architecture pieces. I'm waiting on input from El Hefe (JBG) about the meaning of the breached/etc. clauses, and I didn't do anythign with Biodome happiness, as Biodomes do not seem to give happiness... so... er... yeah. Which makes this a pretty straightforward set of modifications.

<TerrainImpassables> appears to work.

This is a limited demo, I didn't rewire everything by any stretch, but should give you an idea of what's possible, particular given we have all our own terrains, etc.

Note: If you actually look at the Python code, the terrain conversion is only necessary to keep the default map generators happy. They like having water terrains, and get upset when they arn't there.

The Helium3 resource gets a Helium3 improvement built by a worker. When connected by a road the city gets the resource. We hope. :)

Ok, so to confirm.
A) You still want this building?
B) +2 gold per He3 resource in the city radius which are connected to the city and have the right improvement built on them regardless of whether they are worked, yes?

<TerrainImpassables> appears to work.

This is a limited demo, I didn't rewire everything by any stretch, but should give you an idea of what's possible, particular given we have all our own terrains, etc.

Note: If you actually look at the Python code, the terrain conversion is only necessary to keep the default map generators happy. They like having water terrains, and get upset when they arn't there.

Yes I figured this out and thus we no long have any water terrain on the moon

Yes I figured this out and thus we no long have any water terrain on the moon

8). Took me about 30m of rebooting my machine to figure it out for certain :).

What do you think of fueled planes? I think the fuel airfield requires Bronze-Working, I forget.

8). Took me about 30m of rebooting my machine to figure it out for certain .

What do you think of fueled planes? I think the fuel airfield requires Bronze-Working, I forget.

Did not get around to checking out the fueled planes yet and now it is very late and I am very tired. Check your pm for an updated version of the mod. (without the freeze on exit bug):D

Ok, I've just finished build the bulk of the artillery implementation we described using planes. Here are the problems...

You can't (that I can find) disable plane missions. So Bombards can go on recon missions.
Air Combat missions bypass ordinary events--No OnUnitMove, No OnCombatResult. So I have to remove bombards are the end of the turn based on them having acted or not during the turn.

The only way I can prevent bombard shuffling (e.g. have three artillery in a stack, each one produces a shot, all three shots are xferred to one artillery and it leaves fully loaded), is to tag each bombard with the unit it's associated with, but this makes accidental user mistakes very problematic. Particularly since I can not expressly load a unit onto a carrier (that I've found).

Other then that, it works like a charm. What do you all think?

Ok, so to confirm.
A) You still want this building?
B) +2 gold per He3 resource in the city radius which are connected to the city and have the right improvement built on them regardless of whether they are worked, yes?

Yes, that sounds ideal. Disabling the building can be done in XML, correct? Once Isolation is researched this bonus needs to go away.

I'm getting confused as to which downloads to install in which order. Should I install Belizan's mega-improvements download over Matthewv's latest update?

I'm getting confused as to which downloads to install in which order. Should I install Belizan's mega-improvements download over Matthewv's latest update?

I think you should try matthewv's update since it's the full working mod. Next you or someone can try to incorporate Belizan's work into it. I'm leaving Python adding to someone else.:confused:

I'm getting confused as to which downloads to install in which order. Should I install Belizan's mega-improvements download over Matthewv's latest update?

All of my testing mods are stand alone and in no way can be extracted over the Moon Mod. The idea is to load them up as mods in their own right and test out the features they are demonstrating in an otherwise virgin, vanilla civ 4 "mod". Test how the feature behaves and give me feedback as to how its behaviour coincides with your vision of it. Look for loopholes I've missed 8). Bugs, etc.

At this juncture we're making no effort to put the Python support code into the main mod, as the mod changes so often and so radically, I'd have to recode everything constantly with each release. At some point, when I have feedback I will try to make a merged baseline set of Python files with easy and well documented configuration options, so that whoever is in charge of the various XML files, can plug in the Unit, Building, Tech or Civic (etc.) string types they want to be used for each feature.

Yes, that sounds ideal. Disabling the building can be done in XML, correct? Once Isolation is researched this bonus needs to go away.

Off hand I can't remember if obsolete buildings are automatically destroyed or simply no longer generate benefits. If the building is there, I will have to test for it. Hopefully I can ask the question, "Is this obsolete". We'll see when I get to coding it.

Is there anything that we can add to the version 0.1A Alpha before we post it? While I'm at it is there anything that needs further clarification?

Your ideas on the great people are... er... great. 9.5.1, 6, and 7 and 9.6.1, 2 and 3 can all go ahead as you outline them!

Great work, Belizan! :thumbsup:

Your ideas on the great people are... er... great. 9.5.1, 6, and 7 and 9.6.1, 2 and 3 can all go ahead as you outline them!

Great work, Belizan! :thumbsup:

Um, thanks, but.. I feel necessary to quote myself for 9.6.3...


Originally Posted by Belizan
Hmm.. well, spawn an unmovable unit to spy for you, add a super specialist, a building (for the defensive bonus and maintenance)... Yeah.. doable, but ugly 8). I'll have to check when I go to implement it if I can condense this at all. Would you want this ability to be stackable? I.e. more then one Great AI could be added to a city in this fashion for increased effect?


Second, have you looked at the fuel demo? That's a pretty important question to explore.

Perhaps I didn't mean 9.6.3 :blush:

I will look at the fuel demo right away! :salute:

Perhaps I didn't mean 9.6.3 :blush:

I will look at the fuel demo right away! :salute:

Danke :).

I'll put up the Artillery demo and you can look at that too...

Hey, having figured out how to solve my attacker/defender issue, it occured to me... maybe I don't want to.

Do we want to have a chance of the Biodome being damage on either offense or defense? I.e if I attack out of a city under a Biodome, do I also risk damaging the Biodome? Or only if I'm defending in one?

Dunno. Although you'd have to be a bit thick to try and fire through your own biodome! :hammer2:

Dunno. Although you'd have to be a bit thick to try and fire through your own biodome! :hammer2:

Well, the idea would be them firing back at you. Afterall, just because you attack, doesn't mean you win.

It depends on your philosophy of the Civ4 combat abstraction. I had originally been thinking that, in line with the graphical representation, combat took place in the tile of the defender, so in order for a biodome to risk damage in a firefight, the firefight would have to involve a unit defending the city. It just occurs to me that that may not be sufficiently brittle for your tastes, so I thought I'd ask 8).

No, it sounds fine. Do it. Sounds great.

Right now I NEED SLEEP.

This is more or less the full implementation for this feature. Still no happiness mods for the agrodome/biodome terrain improvement, but... as I pointed out before, I can't take away what isn't there 8). It's a relatively easy bit to add, though, just have to make a second version of the terrain improvement and swap them in and out as appropriate.

Anyhow, here is the new demo for City Architectures. Please beat it up and break it if you can.

This is the DOMAIN_AIR carrier version artillery. Now, it is possible to make it "appear" cooler. I can (I think) change the icon and possible the tooltip for the bombard options, and I can remove the *button* for Recon, but the AI will be able to do recon missions regardless.

Anyhow, take a look.

Break time for Bonzo...

When I get back, I'll be doing what I call the Tech Edge system. 5.10 I believe, the one where units get promotions based on techs you have. Word.

The current schedule is on the thread in the usual place.

Ok, here's the tech edge system. Quite powerful, although I ran into a bug I haven't been able to solve which prevents me from doing some caching, so with large numbers of rules and units it could get to be very slow.

Check it out.

Continued great stuff Belizan. :goodjob:

I know that you finished the turret code, but I'll admit that I don't know what to do with it or what it even will do.

I'm hoping to figure it out and test it since the defense cannons suck as is. I'd like to bump their strength up, but keep it so there can only be 1 per city at a time. I think that's what you did.

edit - now I can't find the zip file. And it says confirmed/implemented. This has been implemented?

Continued great stuff Belizan. :goodjob:

I know that you finished the turret code, but I'll admit that I don't know what to do with it or what it even will do.

I'm hoping to figure it out and test it since the defense cannons suck as is. I'd like to bump their strength up, but keep it so there can only be 1 per city at a time. I think that's what you did.

edit - now I can't find the zip file. And it says confirmed/implemented. This has been implemented?

Turrets were done long ago, before this thread was even started. The link for it is somewhere on the main thread. I can put up another version for you here. Which I guess I will do.

Thanks Belizan.

Your ideas on the great people are... er... great. 9.5.1, 6, and 7 and 9.6.1, 2 and 3 can all go ahead as you outline them!

Great work, Belizan! :thumbsup:

Sorry that was 9.6.4 I quoted before. It's 9.6.1 that's the issue. Although, at this point I know *how* to do it. What I don't know is the rules you want to use... What civic, how much GP do you want it to grant? Do you want it to convert a portion of another kind of GP production to AI GP production, or add additional GP production?

@JBG
For the Great General, other then how he gets spawned, all the features you've slated for production can be done in the XML. I'll write up the XML for you if you like, but... Did you want to answer any of my questions on the rules vis a vis upgrading? I can code those without too much difficulty, although I don't think we can get the AI to use them. (Although there are some Specialist AI functions I haven't really looked at).

Also, if you could illuminate me as to the rules affecting Great AI GP generation.

BTW, you did not mention it, but did you want regular specialists to go along with these? And if so, what do you want them to do?

Re: Normal specialists. Generals can add experience to units generated, but (say) cost money rather than give it. AIs can increase culture and science. Statesmen can increase happiness and reduce war weariness.

Re: Great Generals: if it'd make your life simpler, then leave it until later. On upgrading, I think if you just have him upgrade a single unit, for once, for free (say) that might be a decent placeholder. If possible you could extend it to all units of a type in the same stack (at a very low cost), but if it's too complimicrated then seriously don't bother.

Great AIs have an increased chance of spawning with certain buildings (like the Resident AI improvement, Computer Core improvement, for example) and one or two advances that I'll get woodelf to tweak. They're rare, though. Some wonders can also increase their generation rate once we get a few wonders milling around. New GP types will be worth thiking about when we get round to the wonders section.

Hope that clears it up!

Great artillery implementation! The AI can run recon, thats fine, hopefully they wont do recon instead of attacking, actually why not let the human do recon? instead of firing an explosive shell, you fire a drone that snaps photos of the area as it sails over and radios them back to you before crashing harmlessly??? I don't mind the way it looks, we can change the buttons and tooltips as you said. Are the 'shells' stealthy? We dont want the air defense batteries to be able to intercept them at the same rate as regular fighter-bombers. This reliably simulates civ3 style arty, cant wait to see it in-game. I think I will go make some new skins for units to get rid of the moon chariot etc. good work!

Let me know which units you're replacing with skins dsquared. I just downloaded five or six skins from the units section and I'm going to drop them into the mod for some of the newer units.

have a missile and rocket infantry reskin

Great artillery implementation! The AI can run recon, thats fine, hopefully they wont do recon instead of attacking, actually why not let the human do recon? instead of firing an explosive shell, you fire a drone that snaps photos of the area as it sails over and radios them back to you before crashing harmlessly??? I don't mind the way it looks, we can change the buttons and tooltips as you said. Are the 'shells' stealthy? We dont want the air defense batteries to be able to intercept them at the same rate as regular fighter-bombers. This reliably simulates civ3 style arty, cant wait to see it in-game. I think I will go make some new skins for units to get rid of the moon chariot etc. good work!

They have 100% evasion, which I *think* means they can't be intercepted. I haven't played with aircraft too much. I could make them stealthy as well, but that might be frustrating for determining where you are being shelled from 8).

Given that shells travel rather fast I'd say that few people have a chance to plot a reverse trajectory :D

Way to go Belizan! I finally put your turret program into the mod and the AI can finally defend cities. I didn't play up until it upgrades yet, but I'm comfident it will. Great job!

On shell interdiction: we have had counter artillery radar for some time here on earth, for instance in the iraq war, every time our troops were shelled, we put a bomb on top of that location. the military is close to deploying a laser system capable of literally shooting down an incoming shell before it detonates. We want to be able to shell people so we assume our projectiles have ECCM and stealthy abilities. however we do have laser batteries for use against aircraft

Should I start working on a merge mod then? And if so which mods should I include? All but fuel?

Also, what's the story with the Great General and the Great AI. I've analyzed it now, and there are only three features there that need Python coding--Generation of the Great General, Linking a unit to a building, and granting a one-time XP award on Building Built. These are really trivial to code 8), so the question is, who is going to do the XML work for these two (they require the two units--General, AI, plus two Specialists (same), plus three buildings (9.5.6, 9.5.7, 9.6.3), and a special spy unit (for the 9.6.3 counter espionage ability).

It's very disappointing that you don't seem to be able to make different quality of spy units :(. That sucks :(.

welll.... woodelf is working on things right now so we cant freeze xml until he does. definitely include the artillery and airfields, fuel is dead on the vine, i know you tried to get it to work but.... oh well.

welll.... woodelf is working on things right now so we cant freeze xml until he does. definitely include the artillery and airfields, fuel is dead on the vine, i know you tried to get it to work but.... oh well.

Did you ever check out the fuel mod? 8)

no but i hated the idea from the start... plus if the AI wont use it properly forget it. i liked the civ4 flight implementation

no but i hated the idea from the start... plus if the AI wont use it properly forget it. i liked the civ4 flight implementation

You could at least take a look. But yes, the AI will never understand that it's units have limited range. I can force them to "obey the restrictions" in a way that they will never crash a plane/run out of fuel, but it won't do wonders for their planning algorithms 8).

edit: Well, at least until the SDK comes out.

Ok, I have Great General, Great AI and the Leadership traits done with the exception of 10.1.4, 10.2.2. and 10.3.1, which I want to implement via civics, which requires some significant XML tweeks, so I'm going to hold off on that until we do the merge.

Speaking of which, I'm going to start preparing to do that, combining all the Mod components I've built so far except for fuel, and I'll probably toss in Woodelf's He3 trade building if it doesn't give me too many headaches. What I'll need is for whoever has the master version of the mod to freeze it at some point, package it up and give me access to it, and then keep it "frozen" for about a day until I can get everything in place and figure out how to send it back. Unless someone has another suggestion?

Belizan, could you add in three more turret promotions? Pretty please!

Ok, I have Great General, Great AI and the Leadership traits done with the exception of 10.1.4, 10.2.2. and 10.3.1, which I want to implement via civics, which requires some significant XML tweeks, so I'm going to hold off on that until we do the merge.

Speaking of which, I'm going to start preparing to do that, combining all the Mod components I've built so far except for fuel, and I'll probably toss in Woodelf's He3 trade building if it doesn't give me too many headaches. What I'll need is for whoever has the master version of the mod to freeze it at some point, package it up and give me access to it, and then keep it "frozen" for about a day until I can get everything in place and figure out how to send it back. Unless someone has another suggestion?

I can "freeze" it at some point today. I can then send out the XMl and new art parts for someone else to upload. It would take me hours to do that. :(

Once you've got all that done, send it to me and I'll make sure everything's okay - then I'll upload it as version 0.103.

Great work, people!

JBG - if you want to post here or email me the chocies for starting techs for the civs please do, but don't do it in XML. Also, can you make sure each has Permafrost Brick as one choice......the other one can come from

Alloys
Air Recycling
Lunar Claendar
Chartra Selene
Low-G Warfar
Electronics

Thanks

Erhm.... you'd probably better do it, actually.

And why Permafrost Brick? Surely, if everyone has it, there's no point in it being an 'advance'?

Remind me what Permafros Brick leads to?

Erhm.... you'd probably better do it, actually.

And why Permafrost Brick? Surely, if everyone has it, there's no point in it being an 'advance'?

Remind me what Permafros Brick leads to?

Sadly it leads to Duricrete which is needed for roads. I found the hard way that if you need 2 techs for roads it sucks!

It needs some tweaking. Maybe I'll leave it as is for now. They all get Alloys and Permafrost Brick. Balance comes later.

Belizan, could you add in three more turret promotions? Pretty please!

All you ahve to do is mod the line in turrets.py to include your new turret unit types.



TurretUnitClasses = ('UNITCLASS_BASETURRET', 'UNITCLASS_BIGTURRET', 'UNITCLASS_BIGGESTTURRET')


The same will be true in the merged version. If you tell me the Unit class's of your turrets when I get everything, I'll put it in for you.

I'll let you look at the next version and see what you can do. I left most of what you did alone when I merged it in. The next 3 could be called, Huge, Gigantic, and Monstrous. :) We'll polish names later.

Again, great job on them!

Once you've got all that done, send it to me and I'll make sure everything's okay - then I'll upload it as version 0.103.

Great work, people!

I would not be so quick in releasing another version. After the bad experiecne we have with v0.100 I think you will understand why we should wait until we played tested and debbuged for a couple of days.

I would not be so quick in releasing another version. After the bad experiecne we have with v0.100 I think you will understand why we should wait until we played tested and debbuged for a couple of days.

I think we should all download the next version when JBG (or matthewv) put it up and try it for 12-24 hours. If three different people have good luck maybe we're good to go?

I think we should all download the next version when JBG (or matthewv) put it up and try it for 12-24 hours. If three different people have good luck maybe we're good to go?

Sounds good to me. We sould as remove all our links to the previous mod version to help prevent confusion between mod versions. Also, JBG sould PM a moderater to close the alpha thread asap. I want to made the next release as smooth as possible and hopefully people will forget about our rough first release.

I hope you all agree with me(remember that I was the one that had stop all to fix the bugs as quick as possible in order to prevent the first release from being a complete failure)

I agree 100%

I'm just waiting on JBG to give us the link and I'll be one of the three to make sure it works! I'm also jotting down notes for what needs changing already, but I'm not making them yet since it's frozen. :)

I'm start a thread for pre release changes when we get the working version.

@ mod team
please remove all links to v0.102 that you posted(dont forget the ones in your sigs)

I'm just waiting on JBG to give us the link and I'll be one of the three to make sure it works! I'm also jotting down notes for what needs changing already, but I'm not making them yet since it's frozen.

You can add and change stuff for another 6 or so hours if you want(we could freeze it then). I won't be home till then to upload a version to make sure the mod team is playtesting the same version on all computers.

I'll keep the changes solely in XML then. Much easier and faster for me to mail just that out.

Matthewv, I'm going to be tied up with work tomorrow, but on Saturday I'll be able to collate the latest updates into a better working version, so if you can wait another day, I can make a new post then.

I hereby swear, with my right hand on my last print-out of the Moon Bible, that on Saturday I shall collate, test, and post (roughly in that order) a newer, better version of the SotM. Once that's done, I'll PM Thunderfall and that'll be it.

And I'm probably going to have to stay late tomorrow, so you may have to cope without me all day - if I want Tamlyn to give me more free time before Christmas, I'm going to have to make up for that week I took earlier...

Don't you want to collate, let us all test, and then post?

Matthewv, I'm going to be tied up with work tomorrow, but on Saturday I'll be able to collate the latest updates into a better working version, so if you can wait another day, I can make a new post then.

I hereby swear, with my right hand on my last print-out of the Moon Bible, that on Saturday I shall collate, test, and post (roughly in that order) a newer, better version of the SotM. Once that's done, I'll PM Thunderfall and that'll be it.

And I'm probably going to have to stay late tomorrow, so you may have to cope without me all day - if I want Tamlyn to give me more free time before Christmas, I'm going to have to make up for that week I took earlier...
We could to this but then don't expect to release the next version to next week Tuesday or Wednesday. I vote we collate on Saterday and release to next version on Wednesday. This should greatly improve the quality of the next release if we do this instead od rushing a release this weekend.

How very true. Yes, okay. Collated by sat. then playtest until wed. sound much better.

You would have thought I'd have learnt by now, wouldn't you? :rolleyes:

Okay. spend tomorrow posting stuff for the collation, and I'll get cracking on saturday.

And what do you propose I should do in the event we get multiple copies of the same file? The idea of merging XMLs sound singularly unattractive.

You shouldn't get any multiples. Any projected/suggested changes should be listed in the Rallying thread and then either you or someone else can edit them. And if I finally get dsquared's units to work we can add those. Same deal with Wonders, which I might work on tomorrow.

Ok, so who can I get the locked state up to date mod from? And do we have an IRC or whatever chat system picked yet? Any of you guys use AIM or ICQ or Messenger?

Ok, so who can I get the locked state up to date mod from? And do we have an IRC or whatever chat system picked yet? Any of you guys use AIM or ICQ or Messenger?

The zipped file I emailed out today is a "frozen" part of the mod. If you simply extract it and put it into the full mod you'll get everything up to date.

I'm redoing building bonuses now and can send out an XML file later.

The zipped file I emailed out today is a "frozen" part of the mod. If you simply extract it and put it into the full mod you'll get everything up to date.

I'm redoing building bonuses now and can send out an XML file later.

Frozen means you stop editting the files once you've released it 8).

I'll wait.

Frozen means you stop editting the files once you've released it 8).

I'll wait.

I know, but I'm just getting a jump on 1 file. The majority won't be affected. Even so, you can always just add the next email over top of this one in the mod.

Alright, I'll email out another XML and then stop editing. But there's so much that needs doing!

I know, but I'm just getting a jump on 1 file. The majority won't be affected. Even so, you can always just add the next email over top of this one in the mod.

Alright, I'll email out another XML and then stop editing. But there's so much that needs doing!

Yes, but I don't want to have to spend time debugging why my version of the files doesn't "merge" properly wih yours 8).

Frozen means you stop editting the files once you've released it 8).

I'll wait.

@Belizan
If you have time Friday night(your time. I hope I got your time zone figured out right), you should wait till the completely frozen version of the mod is out then.(If JBG posts his files early Saterday(his time)) You can then have complete control of the mod to add all your python.
If you can then add all your stuff at that time and send it to us on Saterday we can then playtest for the next couple of days. I will then debug next week Monday and Tuesday(and made any small modifications that are required). On Tuesday night I we send the mod team the finished product to be released to the public. JBG can then post it on Wednesday.

I we follow this schedule thing will hopefully run nice and smooth and we should not have to worry about conflicting versions of the mod.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. :)

Check your email bub.

@Belizan
If you have time Friday night(your time. I hope I got your time zone figured out right), you should wait till the completely frozen version of the mod is out then.(If JBG posts his files early Saterday(his time)) You can then have complete control of the mod to add all your python.
If you can then add all your stuff at that time and send it to us on Saterday we can then playtest for the next couple of days. I will then debug next week Monday and Tuesday(and made any small modifications that are required). On Tuesday night I we send the mod team the finished product to be released to the public. JBG can then post it on Wednesday.

I we follow this schedule thing will hopefully run nice and smooth and we should not have to worry about conflicting versions of the mod.


That works fine for me as well. However you all want to do it. You can't add in Trait-restrained buildings and units (and have them work properly, at least) until we merge, though. I just need to know when we're going to do it ;).

I'll probably want to be able to talk live with.. probably Woodelf or maybe JBG is he's up to date on these things, when I do the merging, probably for a few hours, to ask about various units and techs and what not. I'm in Caulifornia atm, which is PST. And I have no idea what my plans are for the weekend 8). Or this Tuesday, as Bjork once said. Although, I think Jean Reno said it best when he said... "I'm free Tuesday."

I'm free tomorrow and Saturday. Sunday I'll most likely be busy all day.

I'm in Caulifornia atm
Are you serious?? That mean you are in the same Time zone as me. I thought you were in australia or something since you post at like 4 in the morning

My sleep schedule is messed up right now. My brother came in from Afghanistan, and I haven't adjusted yet. I'm typically up until 5-7am these days.

And yes. I'm serious :).

I thought he was between JBG and Australia....

No, I just keep coder's hours :/

Well, We need to schedule a time for belizan to stick his code in the mod when someone is online to do the appropiate XML Editing. I should be available Friday night PST(might stay up till early Saterday morning) to help out.

I have a drop from woodelf, should I use that, or wait for JBG's?

I have a drop from woodelf, should I use that, or wait for JBG's?

Hmm.. i don't know depends what JBG edit. I don' t think he did anything that will interfer with you stuff. I say go ahead. I have time tonight to help you out with the xml stuff.

I'm playing with the Python stuff you guys put in last night, but I'm confused about one thing....

If I build City Bunkers I get the option next to build City Biodome refit. Conversely if I build City Biodomes I get the option to next build City Bunker refit. Odd or is that normal?

If I build City Bunkers I get the option next to build City Biodome refit. Conversely if I build City Biodomes I get the option to next build City Bunker refit. Odd or is that normal?

This is normal, It allows you to switch from a biodome to an bunker type city and vise versa. That way if you build a biodome and you want to switch to bunk during wartime you can do it by building the city bunker refit.(cool eh:cool:)

Now I understand the refit. Yes, very cool. :)

About artillery - it works! Does it need a range of 4? I think we also need to change the mesh size to 1 from 2. And it did completely kill a barb scout in 2 passes! (-52% damage and then -48% the second time).

Feel free to change the XML values of the units involved to taste. The UNIT_BOMBARD controls the strength of the artillery.

The changes I customarily make to XMLs are making sure all the Civilisation and Leaderhead art links up, and also perhaps tweaking the occasional value here and there.

It's nice to be back, btw.

The changes I customarily make to XMLs are making sure all the Civilisation and Leaderhead art links up, and also perhaps tweaking the occasional value here and there.

It's nice to be back, btw.

Please let me know of any changes you make to this version. Welcome back again!

So far the only change I have made is to add an *.mp3 file for the OpeningMenu (supposed to overwrite the old one).

Just to check, does the latest version (0.11) work with everyone?

Just to check, does the latest version (0.11) work with everyone?

As far as I know it does. I havent gotten any real bug reports with it.

Runs like a charm on my (lowend) calculator. ;)

I think it's time to simply let the public have it and then let us have it again. :)

We know we have tweaking to do.

Right then. I am in the process of sending y'all the mp3 file I mentioned via PM. If you want to send me your latest files I'll plug them into the v0.11. Then I suggest we do a collective playtest and THEN inflict it on the public. We ought to remember what happened last time....

Or alternatively I can just post version 0.11 straight up...

Or alternatively I can just post version 0.11 straight up...

Nonononono.

matthewv has a very modified version. I think he's combining a lot of python and XML changes and is going to bug test it and then we can release it.

Jolly good.

Glad we cleared that one up!
I recommend we do a big collective playtest on this latest version.

And on that note: is anyone up for a test, experimental multiplayer game? Perchance?

Jolly good.

Glad we cleared that one up!
I recommend we do a big collective playtest on this latest version.

WE should be ready to release the next version tomorrow.(A really good day to release for me since I have the day off tomorrow.:D This way I can fix any problems that arise. Hopefully there won't be any. Our current version is much more stable then when we released last week.)

And on that note: is anyone up for a test, experimental multiplayer game? Perchance?
I shoud be able to tommorow since I have the day off. Hehe, It would give me a chance to show you guys what moon dust tastes like.:lol: :D

Now, now. :nono: Be nice!

If we can get a hold of the latest version tonight I can set up the new thread this evening (ie within the next few hours - I don't want to go to bed at 2am again!)

Remember I'm working on GMT (my house almost lies on the Greenwich Meridian) so I'm a few hours ahead of you lot. It's 5:15 pm right now!

If we can get a hold of the latest version tonight I can set up the new thread this evening (ie within the next few hours - I don't want to go to bed at 2am again!)

Remember I'm working on GMT (my house almost lies on the Greenwich Meridian) so I'm a few hours ahead of you lot. It's 5:15 pm right now!
That would be tough to do since I am at school now and I won't be home for another 7 - 8 hours.(Filegone wasn't behaving this morning so I was not able to send it then)

Now, now. Be nice!
:D

:p .

Sounds great. If matthewv declares his version safe and bug-free tonight I'm all for JBG setting up the new thread tomorrow morning after he tests it out a bit. It especially makes sense with matthew off tomorrow to exterminate any bugs, which there won't be any of!

Touch wood! :D

Touch wood! :D

I'll forward this message to my wife.:agree: :D

It especially makes sense with matthew off tomorrow to exterminate any bugs, which there won't be any of!

What bugs.:D(whats a bug?)

DON'T SAY THINGS LIKE THAT! YOU'LL JINX IT!

And remember, pride comes before a bug (ref. v.0.1A)

There are no bugs on the Moon! If we find any we'll need to redo barbarians!

DON'T SAY THINGS LIKE THAT! YOU'LL JINX IT!
:lol: .

There are no bugs on the Moon! If we find any we'll need to redo barbarians!

Oh, gawd. He's started. :shake:

No aliens, pleeeeeeeeeease!

Oh, gawd. He's started. :shake:

No aliens, pleeeeeeeeeease!

Nope, just joking around. :mischief:

Really? I'd never have guessed..... :D

Really? I'd never have guessed..... :D

I do like mind worms! If we expand to Mars then you'll have to give in and let us have....MARTIANS!

I do like mind worms! If we expand to Mars then you'll have to give in and let us have....MARTIANS!

Of course, we'll let you play with Hiroko (Red Mars) and her farmer gang. :D

If we expand to Mars I most cetainly will not. However, that's for another thread (I can produce an equal amount of info about a Mars mod as I have already done with Luna - on demand).

Although we probably ought to get *this* mod working properly before we start thinking about more projects...

If we expand to Mars I most cetainly will not. However, that's for another thread (I can produce an equal amount of info about a Mars mod as I have already done with Luna - on demand).

Although we probably ought to get *this* mod working properly before we start thinking about more projects...

I think we have a long way to go yet. Not to mention I still feel like our colonization of the moon is heavily sugar-coated. JBG, have you really examined era 1?

I think we have a long way to go yet. Not to mention I still feel like our colonization of the moon is heavily sugar-coated. JBG, have you really examined era 1?

Yes, thats for sure. I don't expect this mod to be totally complete for many, many months.

't Looks like the .dds files themself are the reason I can't see the civ flags. :(
I can view the First People flags in my dds viewer, but it crashes when I try to view those of the moonmod.

Btw, it's possible to decrease the moonmod download with a whooping 300kb... there's a "button" folder too much in it. ;)

I can view the First People flags in my dds viewer, but it crashes when I try to view those of the moonmod.

There are different compressions for .dds files. Your .dds veiwer must not be able to veiw these. I doubt that is the reason that you cant see the civ flags

Then what is? The program in which the flags are made? It makes no sense that for a similar format and a similar size I can view one button but not others.

edit: I misread your question

Never mind, was just venting my frustration.

What exactly is the problem with the flags? No-one else has noticed any problem. Although if you are consistently playing with Orbital Limited and/or the Lunar Federation, DO PLEASE MAKE SURE ALL THE ART FILES MATCH UP WITH THE ART XMLs. I have repeatedly had to modify the latest XMLs because of a persistent and deeply irritating error, i.e. that the flag file names for those two civs to not match their reference in the CIV4ArtCivilizations XML. Don't ask me why.

I have repeatedly had to modify the latest XMLs because of a persistent and deeply irritating error, i.e. that the flag file names for those two civs to not match their reference in the CIV4ArtCivilizations XML. Don't ask me why.
Did you make sure I got the files that you changed when you did this? That would eplain why you have to repeatedly modify it.

What exactly is the problem with the flags?

They just show white, as reported before. And I started with quite a number of the factions already, 't is all the same.

I know that someone had terrain display problems due to an out of date graphics driver - was that you? Or even if it isn't, might that be relevant?

:confused:

I've never had that problem with flags before, and no-one else has reported it. I don't know what to do!

Terrain is fine on me, save for the "lines" running through the big crater tiles. Even the plotline graphics are ok now. It's just the flags.

Terrain is fine on me, save for the "lines" running through the big crater tiles. Even the plotline graphics are ok now. It's just the flags.

Flags have been causing problems since anyone did any modding in CivIV. :( I don't know the answers, but since Geo has stated he has an older system I'm willing to bet on that.

Old you say?

AMD Athlon-Xp-M 2800, 512 RAM :p

Old you say?

AMD Athlon-Xp-M 2800, 512 RAM :p

Haven't you been talking about an older vid card? :blush:

Haven't you been talking about an older vid card? :blush:

Well, a low VRAM vidcard anyway. :mischief:
( Gforce4 420 GO 32 VRAM )

But that doesn't explain why I can see the flags of at least one other mod (First Peoples) and not the ones in Moonmod.

Not to be snippy or anything, but none of these graphics woes have to do with python code extension 8).

We threadjacked this a while ago Belizan....

You'll need a new Code thread I fear..... :D

Or we could get back on topic. I shall endeavour to anyway, with the following insightful and deeply meaningful question:

Can we change the gfx for the artillery barrage? That plane looks very nice, I'll agree, but isn't an aerodynamic propeller plane slightly out of place on the moon? Or am I just being funny?

I think Belizan plans on stealing the fireball from Kael's FfH, which would be fine by me. It's spectacular, at least the version I playtested for him.

So here's the thing. With a few exceptions (like the civics), the units I create and put out, are not meant to be... uh... what's the word. Set in stone? Finalized? Thought out? Have any thought in them at all?

The values of the units are arbitrary. Just place holders for me to get the functionality working. The fact that my baseturret had a strength of 3 was not my way of saying "I think turrets should have a strength of 3", but rather, i had to have a strength value, so I put one in.

Similarly, the idea that Barrages look like planes is not that I think planes make a good model for artillery barrages, but rather that I didn't bother going to get some other graphic. I suggested we gear Kael's fireball (fire elemental I think, technically), but I hadn't really intended to do it myself as, for merge simplification purposes, I want to avoid touching the graphics (art) or xml dirs as much as possible. You all should feel free to change around whatever you like of those. The same goes for the civics I'll be releasing hopefully later tonight. Only some of their features are hard coded in the mod, and changing them will be a non-trivial amount of work. But the parts that are in the xml files--feel free. Generally, the only thing that will cause trouble if you change them are the tags (Unit type, unit class, building type, etc. names--e.g. UNIT_BASETURRET, etc.). In most cases I have collated all the tag values into the Config.py file so new ones could be added by "non-programmers". This file could probably be better documented, but matt, for instance, I'm sure could add to it. Not all of the facilities are modable this way but most are. None of the other xml settings matter for the code. That doesn't mean, however, that you might not get undesirable side effects (like changing the tech prereq on the TE promotions to NONE from TECH_NEVER). Code still works. But you didn't want to do that.

8).

BTW, who should I coordinate with to hand over the civic stuff?

Also, JBG!!!! Woodelf seems to think that he has done nothing with civics. Are you/have you checked over the five main civic categories and validated them?

Yes. The five main civic type all work for now. They aren't wildly inappropriate and they seem to be behaving themselves. We should leave off the more advanced options until the beta. Those values in the bible were only meant to be guides, and I wrote them before I understood the limitations of the XMLs. For now, they work, so we should concentrate on more vital areas of the mod (aside, say, from enacting balance changes).

What's all this talk about civics? :scared:

I did the civic about 6 weeks ago, but nothing since. I'm confused as well... ;)

So I've been thinking about how to implement Terrain Attrition. Ok, not how to implement it, I mean more.. How to structure my implementation. Not that anyone asked me for it, so maybe I shouldn't be asking these sorts of questions 8). Still, I'll give it a shot.

I've flipped flopped over a number of systems, but this is what I'm thinking about doing atm...

A) Create a function which would return a "survival skill" rating based on the unit, terrain/plot information and tech.

B) Create a function that would return a "supply category" or maybe a familiarity category--whatever; based on distance from allied territory, size of the map, and whether you were in "owned" territory (at war or via open borders agreement).

C) Create a dictionary which would index terrains to a closure (mini-script) which would decide, based on the terrain, survival skill of the unit and supply category whether the unit should suffer attrition damage, and another closure which would use those same factors to determine how large the attrition damage should be.

There are a number of "redundent" steps here, but, it's all about how to break up the problem in a way that makes sense when you think about it, and let's you make consistant rules. (And to allow for the eval closures to be "simple")

Sounds good to me. So long as techs or upgrades can lessen the effects of attrition. Or promotions that could combat attrition of which we'll never know how well the AI does... A special building that helped would be good, but again we'll need to see how the AI handles it.

Belizan - how in python could you rig it so each civ can only found one religion? I'm toying with adding some just to see how they play, but I hate when civs found more than one religion!

Well, you'd want to define your own alternate rules for religion founding. So, let's say you did the most obvious thing. Rather then the first to discover tech X, you wanted it to be the first to discover tech X who hadn't already discovered one.

You'd change the techs to not start any religions. Then you'd override OnTechAcquired and check by hand when a player discovered a religion founding tech all the other players to see if they had founded that religion yet, and if this player had already founded a religion. If both checks come back false, you have him found the religion, you pick a holy city, etc., etc. Pretty straightfoward.

Does that mean it's something you'd have to do in python or me in XML? :)

And by straightforward does that mean you can and will do it? :):)

Does that mean it's something you'd have to do in python or me in XML? :)

And by straightforward does that mean you can and will do it? :):)

It's largely a Python problem, but we'd want to do it in two passes. First, you'd create the religions in XML. You'd also have to make a list of tech-religion relationships, and you'd have to verify that you wanted your religion foundings to work as I outlined above. If you want a different mechanic, best to describe it now. One you had that done, I could add the python support code.

Sounds good. I was going to post the religion ideas and wait for feedback, but it seems like everyone is studying or busy so it'll be easier if I just do it and then see what everyone thinks. I'll put them into XML and send them off to you sometime soon.

And religion is the game mechanic, but to me it's more an ideology for our mod.

Sounds good. I was going to post the religion ideas and wait for feedback, but it seems like everyone is studying or busy so it'll be easier if I just do it and then see what everyone thinks. I'll put them into XML and send them off to you sometime soon.

And religion is the game mechanic, but to me it's more an ideology for our mod.

Yeah, we've had the idea to use religion for ideology about six times now, from different people, lurkers or ourselves 8). So I think in concept, at least, you're planting in fertile soil. Lay em out, verify that you want it to be a simple 1st person to discover the tech who hasn't already founded a religion, and tell me which techs go with which religion. All shall be as it should 8). Unless I run into a gotcha 8). hehehe 8).

I think I started the discussion, restarted it, and am resurrecting it yet again. :D It's simply too big of a mechanic to ignore. Plus the way Kael did FfH religion-specific civics is cool and offers variety in that regard.

And thanks. Now that I now it can be done with your help I'm more apt to work on it. ;)