Just figured I would go ahead and start the discussion thread for determining our nation selection.

I figure the first thing we need to do is decide which traits we think are most important and useful for the game.

Aggressive - Free Combat I promotion for melee and gunpowder units, double speed drydock and barracks

Creative - +2 culture in each city, double speed theatre and coliseum

Expansive - +2 health in each city, double speed granary and harbor

Financial - +1 commerce on squares with 2 or more commerce, double speed of bank

Industrious - Double wonder production, double speed of Forge

Organized - Civic upkeep reduced 50 percent, double speed of lighthouse and courthouse

Philosophical - GP points doubled, double speed of University

Spiritual - no anarchy, double speed temple

My personal thoughts are that we are likely to be engaged in a few wars along the way and having the aggressive trait could be extremely useful. After that I think either Financial or Expansive for the commerce/health benefits.

That would give us a selection of either Genghis Khan or Huayna Capac.

What do you guys think about that?

I think we should choose traits that synergise each other to specialise our civ. That clearly leaves Huayna Capac out as he is more of a "jack of all trades, but master of none". IMHO a peaceful combination like Philosophical and Financial could be interesting to play.

I would say Ghandi or Louis XIV, or Fredrick, but maybe someone with aggresive might work. But i think we should get someone with creative. It expands our borders very quick;ly and that will be key.

But i also like Huayn Cpauc

I'm partial to Ghandi myself.

Long Live! ghandi G! Long Live! ghandi G! Long Live! ghandi G! Long Live! ghandi G!

And then with our mysticism, we should rush meditation, use income providing squares even if they aren't growth or production beneficial, just to get buddhism before the other teams. Then We'll have an extra happy face in our cities +culture which will be like being Spiritual, Industrious, 1/2 creative. Its the way to go!

Another voice for Ghandi... the Indian UU is one of the best in the game also. It's not age-based, and you won't get a golden age by accident ;).

I'm surprised there is so much support for Ghandi, but I'm all for it. I love playing for the more peaceful path.

We need to make a list of 5, so i'm assuming Ghandi is the first choice. Lets start talkking about other choices. Like Louis XIV:)

1. Ghandi
2. ???
3. ???
4. ???
5. ???

I would have to say Huayna Capac, simply because we can't be left out in the cold in wartime against strong human opponents.

I would like to request everyone post a list of there top 5 here.

Mine

1. Ghandi
2. Louis XIV
3. Fredrick
4. Huayna Capac
5. Bismark

catherine creative / financial (cossack)
kublai khan creative / aggressive (keshik)
alexander philosophical / aggressive (phalanx)
frederick philosophical / creative (panzer)
tokugawa organized / aggressive (samurai)

Most of the civ attributes have other effects, these are just the major ones.

Creative gives border expansions without having to build any culture producing improvements. This is a big deal because you can settle in the area of widely spaced resources and get them all. It especially helps with seafood which is 2 plots offshore, and also leads to better plot utilization. I separate this one out from the rest as my favorite, at least so far.

Financial gives +1 commerce to every plot which produces at least 2 commerce. Aggressive gives free Combat I promotion to melee and gunpowder units. Philosophical gives double Great People Points, and Organized gives -50% civic cost. Industrious gives +50% wonder builds which can be good if you're going for a wonder based strategy. Expansive gives +2 health, which has been pretty much useless in all my games so far because there were plentiful health resoures. Spiritual gives no anarchy which is useful if you plan to switch civics or religions frequently.

Fast workers are severely overrated. Sure they move 3 vs. a normal worker's 2, but that's only important if you have them running all over the place. If they're working a plot and then moving to the one right next door then there hasn't been any advantage gained. It's still valid to choose India if you want spiritual with either organized or industrious as the 2nd attribute.

1. Ghandi
2. Bismark
3. Qin Shi Huang
4. Roosevelt
5. Kublai Khan

1. Ghandi
2. catherine
3. kublai khan
4. frederick
5. Roosevelt

I would like to put it out there for people who are still unsure. Louis XIV is both Creative and Industrious, so our culture grows rapidly and we get the wonder benefits from industrious

I suppose if y'all insist on playing India with its useless fast workers, I should point out that there is still a decision to make.

Gandhi is Spiritual / Industrious, giving +50% wonder production. What about Asoka, Spiritial / Organized. The organized trait cuts civics upkeep in half which allows faster research, which makes more sense to me in a PBEM than wonder production does.

I would like to ask that you all take my suggestions as just that, suggestions. I haven't had the opportunity to play but a few games, so I'm definately not in a position to tell the whole team what to do. So in this case, I digress to the more experienced players.

Were not all inisting on playing him, we're voting on which leader to choose. Teh current tally is

1. Ghandi with 15 pts
2. Cathrine with 9 pts
3. Kublai Khan with 8 pts.
4. Fredrick with 7 pts.
5. Bismark with 5 pts.

I would like to ask that you all take my suggestions as just that, suggestions. I haven't had the opportunity to play but a few games, so I'm definately not in a position to tell the whole team what to do. So in this case, I digress to the more experienced players.

Your suggestions are just as valued as a vets. Don't let yourself be intimidated.

Your suggestions are just as valued as a vets. Don't let yourself be intimidated.
Not intimidated :) , just understand that with experience comes a larger understanding of the game ;)

EDIT: Which is why I'm content to sit back and watch for the time being. Besides, when something gets messed up from the beginning, I'll be able to laugh and point....lol

1. Ghandi
2. Saladin
3. Louis XIV
4. Qin Shi Huang
5. Isabella

Updated standings:

1. Ghandi with 20 pts
2. Cathrine with 9 pts.
3. Kublai Khan with 8 pts.
4. Fredrick with 7 pts.( tie breaker, he was mentioned on the most ballots)
5. Louis XIV with 7 pts.

I'm going to put in my two votes for Catherine and Asoka. I'll agree with Daveshack, I just don't think fast workers are all that important. And if we play as Gandhi, we're going to have a massive red target on our backs. I mean, *everyone* is going to want to kick the peacenik's butt.

So, I suppose...
1. Catherine
2. Asoka
3. Kublai Kahn
4. Frederick
5. Bismarck

1. Ghandi
2. catherine
3. kublai khan
4. frederick
5. Roosevelt
Given the enlightenment cast by a few here, I'll change my list from the above to:

1. Catherine
2. Kublai Khan
3. Frederick
4. Roosevelt
5. Louis

New update:

1. Catherine at 19 pts.
2. Ghandi at 15 pts.
3. Kublai Khan at 12 pts.
4. Fredrick at 10 pts.
5. Louis XIV at 8 pts.

Lest you all think I'm some kind of Sid level player, I'm not... ;) Just a bit outspoken. :cool:

1. Ghandi (Spirituality is a must if we wish to be the Religion capital of the world)
2. Cathrine
3. Kublai Khan
4. Fredrick
5. Bismark

Update:

1. Catherine 23pts
2. Ghandi 20pts.
3. Kublai Khan 15pts
4. Fredrick with 12 pts
5.Louis XIV with 8 pts

The fast worker may be overrated, but that does NOT MEAN that other UU's are better. Industrious Spiritual is a wonderful combination of traits. All traits are benificial, but those two are very useful. One for religion and government, and the other to gain wonder benefits doubletime and before the other teams. I personally believe that a civ that starts with MYSTICISM IS A MUST! We should definately found the first religion and turn a few heads. Innovia must be the envy of the world. And we need mysticism to get off on the right footing.

The fast worker is a hell of alot more than over-rated. You finish improvements faster, so you need less workers. Which in turn saves you the shields (or hammers.. whatever they are) to make one in the first place. Also, the less maintance aids greatly.

Preffered Traits:
Spiritual
Creative
Philosophical
Industrious

Mauer! Don't give up on Ghandi! Fast Workers are so useful, one military unit for an entire game? Or workers forever! Worker power! Ghandi G! Worker Power! Ghandi G!

The fast worker is a hell of alot more than over-rated. You finish improvements faster, so you need less workers. Which in turn saves you the shields (or hammers.. whatever they are) to make one in the first place. Also, the less maintance aids greatly.

The 3 movement doesn't finish improvements faster, it just shortens the time walking between jobs. A little care in the order of improvements can often produce the same result. In my noble level games (vs AI) I'm soundly trouncing all competition using just 4-5 workers for a civ with about 10-12 cities. Don't have enough completed prince games for a valid evaluation.

The fast worker may be overrated, but that does NOT MEAN that other UU's are better.

Actually, I'm really disappointed with UU's in Civ4. Across the board they don't seem to contribute anywhere near as much benefit as they did in Civ3.

I'm surprised no one else has vouched for saladin! Philosophical AND Spiritual! Religion and Great people! I LOOOOOOOOOOVE that combination! Think about it, found a religion, pump out a great prophet, bam, first wonder! Plus the religion would spread faster to our "Friends" and let us see their cities, and we would get money from them!

I BEG YOU! PICK SOMETHING WITH MYSTICISM! FIRST RELIGION BELONGS TO INNOVIA!

Creative & Industrious, wonders and culture. Thats the combo i loooooooove!

Saladin has an amazing combination! I would much rather be Saladin than Catherine! Building wonders is tough, but creating great people with philosophical, is not so hard!

So long as the leader is spiritual, I dont mind :).

I could live with Saladin.

I agree with DaveShack, the indian worker is one of the less useful UU's. I value financial much higher in my list:
1 Elizabeth
2 Catherine
3 Saladin
4 Kublai Khan
5 Alexander

My list

1. Saladin (spiritual/philosophical)
2. Catherine (creative/financial)
3. Kublai Khan (creative/aggresive)
4. Washington (financial/organized)
5. Elizabeth (philosophical/financial)

For the sake of trying something a little different than I am used to I think Saladin is a great choice. He doesn't have financial which is my favorite attribute, but I think the combinded Civ brainpower of our team can make him a very powerful leader. Catherine as a second choice gives us a lot of potential for scientific and resource power. Being one of the fastest researchers in the game would not be a bad strategy.

Also, for those people who voted Gandhi early on, if you want a spirtual/religion civ maybe you should consider switching to Saladin since it seems pretty clear that we will not be taking on the Indian civs as our civ of choice but everyone seems moderately comfortable with Saladin and his Great People.

I have to admit the idea of being able to found the first few religions and getting Great Prophets to pop the religious wonders sounds like a pretty sweet deal.

1. Ghandi
2. Saladin
3. Louis XIV
4. Qin Shi Huang
5. Isabella

I am switching Ghandi and Saladin on my list! New list =
1. Saladin
2. Ghandi
3. Louis XIV
4. Qin Shi Huang
5. Isabella

Since Ghandi has fallen from favor, and due to good reasoning also (Daveshack, I'm telling you, hes a genius) I am know arguing for Saladin, a personal favorite of mine! The spiritual trait makes it easy for us to succeed in the sometimes time consuming religious aspect of the game, and the philosphical trait makes generating great people so easy that we could grab a couple in the begginning no sweat, without even having to stop our building process for the wonder benefits (Even though wonder benefits are usually better)

After careful consideration, I am putting in my vote for civ selection:

1. Elizabeth
2. Kublai Khan
3. Catherine
4. Saladin
5. Roosevelt

Saladin would make an excellent choice for our nation because:

1. We could lead a peaceful path, but still fight if we need to.
2. We would be cultural monsters
3. We would have many great people
4. Great People could build us wonders
5. Great People could learn us free techs
6. Great People could culture bomb important cities
7. Great People generating does not stop building of other essentials
8. Temples would be easier to build
9. Anarchy would never slow us down so updating our civics is not a problem
10. Civic mobility allows us to adjust during the later game for war circumstances
11. Religous wonders that come of religion+great prophet would allow us to easily spread our faith into other lands and reveal their cities for surveillance
12. Camel Archer comes at a strategically valuable time, when empires have been established and start to seek land through conquest

Feel free to list other positives and or negatives!

You've done an excellent job of laying out the positives for us.

Since I haven't played as Saladin to any real extent, what would people say are the best aspects of a game with Saladin and what are areas that may prove problematic?

The only negatives are that he doesnt come with the other 6 traits =] Which there is nothing any other leader can do about it either. His combination of traits go together, instead of making 1+1=2 it really make 1+1=3. There is a famous japanese proverb that all swords are of equal value, but swords wielded side by side are the most valuable. Well these swords are particularly benifical to eachother.

I didn't put Saladin on my list, but I'd be willing to play under him. ^_^

The 3 movement doesn't finish improvements faster, it just shortens the time walking between jobs. A little care in the order of improvements can often produce the same result. In my noble level games (vs AI) I'm soundly trouncing all competition using just 4-5 workers for a civ with about 10-12 cities. Don't have enough completed prince games for a valid evaluation.

That "time" spent walking between jobs can account for 2-3 turns. It can also help get our workers out of danger. Add in that we won't get any "surprise," because our UU got attacked to early, and that the fast worker won't be useless at the end of the game... it's a hell of alot better than any other UU out there.

Also, no amount of "careful planning" is going to allow a worker to move two spaces instead of one. Nice try, but I'm not falling for it.

The purpose of making a whole new thread on a subject that already has a thread is what?

Needs to get merged with the nation selection thread.

Merged. -- Chieftess

I am striving so hard for Saladin now that I wanted to bring debate solely around his atributes. But I guess its ok if we debate it in here, as long as people still pay atttention. Saladin for nation selection! Please not Catherine! Mysticism for peace!

I didn't put Saladin on my list, but I'd be willing to play under him. ^_^
I'll second this. May I suggest that since we seem to have quite a varying degree of choices, maybe we should elect a council of three to pick one for us. Just a suggestion, please ignore if you disagree.

Updated results:

Catherine= 29pts
Kublai KhanK= 24
Ghandi=19
Saladin=15
Fredrick= 13

Or we could go with the elcted results;) We have almost all voted!

Or we could go with the elcted results;) We have almost all voted!
Follow instructions!! I said ignore :lol:

Just for clarification, how are you calculating the scores Swiss?

If you people would like to see Saladin as our leader, please repost him as your selection! No one is opposed to Saladin, everyone seems to be at least mildly pleased with him, and some of us our ecstatic about him! Lets go for the one we ALL like!

Our Camel Archers (Our castle could be Camelot, and our knights, Camelites, whom ride camels!) will run down the other greek letters! And Piffle too! lol. Please vote Saladin!

Just for clarification, how are you calculating the scores Swiss?

Quite simple, aa leader gets 5 points for being 1st on a list, 4 for being 2nd, 3 for being 3rd, 2 for being 4th, and 1 for being 5th.

I call it the "Reverse Enigneered List Ranking Points System Method":goodjob:

Yes, well, if that's the case, I'm changing my votes to:
1. Saladin
2. Asoka
3. Montezuma
4. Roosevelt
5. Victoria ~_^

Since Elizabeth isn't even close, and I don't want to waste my votes, I guess I'll change to:

1. Saladin
2. Kublai Khan
3. Catherine
4. Elizabeth
5. Roosevelt

Updated Results:

1.Catherine at 24pts
2.Saladin at 23pts
3.Kublai Khan at 21pts
4.Ghandi at 19pts
5. Fredrick at 11pts

CivGeneral! If you want a spiritual leader, put your vote in for saladin!

Given the enlightenment cast by a few here, I'll change my list from the above to:

1. Catherine
2. Kublai Khan
3. Frederick
4. Roosevelt
5. Louis
Hey Swiss, in case you didn't notice were all just here to give you the run around. So....for the sake of singularity I'll go ahead and change mine again. Since I really don't have any major objections to any civ we play.

1. Saladin
2. Catherine
3. Kublai Khan
4. Frederick
5. Roosevelt

I wish to change my first vote from Gandi to Saladin

Updated Results:

Saladin 33

Catherine 23

Kublai Khan 20


Ghandi 14

Frederick 10


Your all a bunch of flip-floppers :joke:

This was, by far, the most enjoyable thread to read from start to finish....I loved it!! Better late, than never, I offer my list:

1. Saladin (I've won two cultural victories and a diplo with him, and since I'm not very good at this game, that must count for something :D )
2. Elizabeth (I just can't get enough of all that moola)
3. Gandhi (the only UU I have used effectively thus far)
4. Tokagawa (If only because I want to make millions of references to the Way of the Shogun)
5. Frederick

Can I ask a question? Since I've not done this MTDG before, what do you think the chances are the eventual victor will win by cultural or diplomatic means? Isn't conquest or domination an eventuality??

updated results:

Saladin at 38

Catherine at 23

Kublai Khan at 20

Ghandi at 17

Fredrick at 13

If someone of positon wants to declare the poll completed, they can do it any day now!

Yay! I am so glad to have you on board civpassive! Your name says it all! We clearly think alike!

I just hope we get copper and/or iron in our siran-made map portion of the world...otherwise, Chip help us. I can't remember, does the Camel Archer require horses?

I'm all for peace, it helps in building alliances, but we have to have some sharp teeth to ward of jealous neighbors!

I don't think camel archers need horses. I think that is their special bonus.

If someone of positon wants to declare the poll completed, they can do it any day now!
11 out of our 13 team members have voted so it's getting very conclusive at least with respect to the first choice. It'll probably take a while before the nation selection is brought up in the main forum though, so we should let the discussion stay open until then. Besides, the choice of map size and game speed may (and should, if we are making a well-reasoned choice) influence opinions on civ choice.

I have now sent this list to the admins as our official one :)


1: Saladin

2: Catherine

3: Kublai Khan

4: Ghandi

5: Frederick

Yes, finally:dance: