This is a really simple mod. Let me start with a short introduction.
I havent used the terms BC or AD since lower high school. My junior and senior years I was encouraged to use BCE(Before Common Era) and CE(Common era). In my higher education I have never heard a grad student of professor utter the terms BC or AD.
Therefor I found Civ IV's use of the archaic terms very unprofessional, as well as a little religious, in a game that tries so hard to present the religions equally.
This mod is simple.
It changes the years from BC and AD to BCE and CE, both in game and in the save game files.
I hope you like it, and please comment.

I always thought CE stood for Christian Era, oh well you learn something new everyday.

Well.. archaic and religious? Normally, this is where I'd fly off on an tangent. :p Either one's good really; any one that can't tolerate the other is probably just overreacting.

At any rate, cool addition. Very practical. :)

Well.. archaic and religious? Normally, this is where I'd fly off on an tangent. :p
Well then I'll do it for you.

I havent used the terms BC or AD since lower high school. My junior and senior years I was encouraged to use BCE(Before Common Era) and CE(Common era).

I always thought CE stood for Christian Era, oh well you learn something new everyday.

I have used them used both ways. But honestly,"Common Era" was only introduced to promote diversiiiiiity and toleraaaance, nevermind all of the revisionist history that was introduced during that time. Forget that the rise of Christianity was a shift in the geo/social/political structure in the "western" world.

I feel that by using BC and AD the game creators are closer to historical fact only because those terms have been used since 525, created by a Scythian monk named Dionysius Exiguus in Rome. Anyways, that's my $0.02.

BTW here's the link to the BC and AD history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_Domini#History_of_Anno_Domini

In my higher education I have never heard a grad student of professor utter the terms BC or AD.
Well, if they did then they wouldn't be real grad students or professors would they?


Either one's good really; any one that can't tolerate the other is probably just overreacting.
This is very true, you should be able to use either one, but that should be left up to you.

I've never used BCE and/or CE, and I've never known anyone that does.



EDIT: Err, I of course mean no disrespect by saying so, though. Anyone who does use BCE and CE will most likely be grateful for this mod component.

I've heard both used, and I would have to agree with Sharule. I'm not saying it's really offensive to anyone to use BC and AD, but BCE and CE are just more universal.

@TheLopez
Personally, I think diversity and tolerance are a good thing. Without diversity or tolerance, you're basically a Nazi. It doesn't hurt anyone to use BCE and CE, so quit complaining.

@TheLopez
Personally, I think diversity and tolerance are a good thing. Without diversity or tolerance, you're basically a Nazi. It doesn't hurt anyone to use BCE and CE, so quit complaining.

I too think that diversity and tolerance are a good thing, as long as it doesn't involve forcing one to do or believe things one way over another just for the sake of diversity and tolerance. That in itself is intolerance. Oh, BTW, since you brought up the whole Nazi thing, I say all of this as a non-Christian in case anyone though that I have a religious bias towards this notation.

Anyways, I don't see where I was complaining and did say at the end of my message:
This is very true, you should be able to use either one, but that should be left up to you.

Robo Logic Man no one is complaining. I think its a good idea for this mod to be available simply because there are civ players from the east.
If you want my opinion on the secular initials (well maybe you don't but i'll say anyway) its silly. It just shows some iratability from liberals over the fact that western dating system is based on the birth of a christian figure. Even if they rename the duration of time after Christ's birth to "common era" (which doesn't make much sense) its still based on that same event in history. Why don't they do it by ages like Tolkien did? Im joking here but it would be cool.
What I think is actually a practical calendar for a civ game is the hebrew calendar, because it starts at the beginning of relevant history. Our savior's birth isn't an event in a normal game, so its kinda strange that a historically inaccurate random civ game based on it. Maybe if christianity couldn't be founded until then? Maybe not. I don't know there.

I do realize no one was really complaining, I guess I just overreacted a little. I just want to clarify that while I slightly prefer the CE system, I do realize that it doesn't actually remove Christian influence, but just tries to disguise it. It really should be up to the user which system they want to use.

If anyone wants more information on the Common Era dating, there is a wikipedia article about it.
Common Era (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Era)
I hope it might clear some things up.

All my professors use BC/AD, but then again I go to a somewhat conservative school (Michigan Tech Univ.).

This mod was also posted over at apolyton.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=148508

Over there the poster's avatar is a Israeli flag. In my mind that casts doubt over the claim that this mod's purpose is only to remove "archaic terms [that are] very unprofessional" and maybe more about removing a Christian element that the poster found offensive. Either way, I don't really care; more options are always better but I think people should be honest about their intentions (not saying he wasn't but just raising the possibility).

Roger Bacon

Honesty is always the best policy.;)

I am Jewish. Im not offended by the use of AD or BC, I just find them archaic.
My avatar here is the Jewish Missionary, so you can derive the same thing.
I did not forsee that this would cause controversy. I made this mod to present the game more proffesionally. If you dont like it, dont use it.
I didnt know that so many people were attached to the BC-AD system of dating. I know I live in a liberal enviroment, but I didnt think that it was that liberal.
I mean, even my Christian friends use the Common Era dating.
However controversial it might be in some places, Academically it is quite standard, so take it or leave it.

I am Jewish. Im not offended by the use of AD or BC, I just find then archaic.
My avatar here is the Jewish Missionary, so you can derive the same thing.
I did not forsee that this would cause controversy. I made this mod to present the game more proffesionally. If you dont like it, dont use it.
I didnt know that so many people were attached to the BC-AD system of dating. I know I live in a liberal enviroment, but I didnt think that it was that liberal.
I mean, even my Christian friends use the Common Era dating.
However controversial it might be in some places, Academically it is quite standard., so take it or leave it.

Well said Sharule.

If you want my opinion on the secular initials (well maybe you don't but i'll say anyway) its silly. It just shows some iratability from liberals over the fact that western dating system is based on the birth of a christian figure.

I'm a left wing bleeding heart liberal and I wouldn't be the least bit offended by having a dating system based on the birth of a Christian figure. Since the BC/AD system is not actualy based on the birth of anyone, we have instead a dating system that merely contains the name of a Christian figure, and that doesn't bother me either.

I'm sure that there are a very small number of hardcore anti religious liberals living in a bunker somewhere that believe the BC/AD system is somehow depriving them of an essential liberty, but contrary to neo-con Rush Limbaughism, most of us are rather reasonable folk.

EH? well ive never even heard of this CE system, never mind anyone that uses it. I'm an Atheist and i use AD and BC, and always will. Though i always did think it was a bit silly using it in civ, can you imagine the people?
"what year is it bob?"
"3980"
"Why we counting down?"
"i dunno, maybe we'll find out in the year 0"

However controversial it might be in some places, Academically it is quite standard, so take it or leave it.

Well put. Regardless of whatever politics people want to bring into the discussion or whatever the views held may be, I for one am glad to see the CE dating. No reason other than the one quoted, its the academic standard with a bit less religious trappings. Call it being PC or what have you, but I think its nice to clear the unitary religious context off of the calendrical system and set it to the current understanding.

Moving on to something else that was mentioned... Is there any way to change the progressions of years (counting down to 0 and back up)? It'd be fun to run off different calendrical systems for different societies.

Moving on to something else that was mentioned... Is there any way to change the progressions of years (counting down to 0 and back up)? It'd be fun to run off different calendrical systems for different societies.
It is possible, in the XML\GlobalDefines.xml file, there is a set starting date, which is -4000, if you changed it to -3000, the game would run from 3000 BCE to 3050 CE. I am working on a Hebrew Calender, but here is my dillema:
It would have to start at 0 and run through 5810. I have to figure out how to syncronize the dating, since 2050 is equal to 5810, however 4000 BCE would be before the Hebrew calender starts. I would either have to have it start at 1240 Prior to anno mundi(Anno Mundi meaning 'In the Year of the World), or I would have to rework the turns so that there are only 5810 years.
Im not quite sure which to go with.

I would like to work with some other calender systems too, perhaps the Islamic calender, with BH and AH(Before and After the Hajj).
I dont know if there is wide support for it, but I think other calenders are fascinating.

lol... yeah this was one of the first things i changed in my mod a while ago.. cant stand the AD BC classification when it's supposed to be a worldly game changing history with no cultured leanings..

Alcatraz, I laughed at your notion of some hard core anti-religious liberals hiding in a bunker, but im sad to say there are a lot of liberals who aren't quite like you. Eight families managed to exterminate brief implications of a God/gods in biology class, and others are offended at the sight of the ten commandments in a classroom or courthouse.
You say that the BC/AD system isn't based on anyone's birth? I can't imagine what else it its based on. BC=before Christ and AD=anno domini (year of our Lord).
Please, no one take offense here.(I accidently inflamed someone on another thread, I tried to be nice):bump:

Alcatraz, I laughed at your notion of some hard core anti-religious liberals hiding in a bunker, but im sad to say there are a lot of liberals who aren't quite like you. Eight families managed to exterminate brief implications of a God/gods in biology class, and others are offended at the sight of the ten commandments in a classroom or courthouse.

My point precisely... 8 families does not equal the vast majority of liberals. As an example of one of the earliest systems of codified law, the 10 commandments are appropriate in a courthouse, just as the bas relief over the entrance to the Supreme Court contains depictions of both Moses and Mohammed.


You say that the BC/AD system isn't based on anyone's birth? I can't imagine what else it its based on. BC=before Christ and AD=anno domini (year of our Lord).
Please, no one take offense here.(I accidently inflamed someone on another thread, I tried to be nice):bump:

As I said, it contains the name of a Christian figure (Christ). But it is not based on his actual date of birth. The BC/AD system was adopted in the 6th century and a monk named Dionysius was tasked with calculating the year of Christ's birth, which he did by consulting the gospels. There are mentions of various dates under the Roman calendar along with Christ's age at the time. Unfortunately, Dionysius made a math error along the way and as a result Jesus was probably 6 years old in 1 AD (note that there is no such year as 0 AD or 0 BC). Thus the AD/BC system is not based on the birth of Christ. The year 1 AD is an arbitrary point in time from which we measure the current year.

For the record, Christ was also not born on December 25th. That was a date of a pagan holiday adopted into Christianity. His exact birthdate is not known but clues in the gospels tend to indicate that his birth was sometime in the spring. Nearly all of the traditions revolving around Christmas are borrowed from pagan religions. In fact, did you know that celebrating Christmas was once banned in Boston? In the 16th century, by the Puritans, who were offended by all the sacrilige involved.

Wasn't it Saturnalia that was 'copied/stolen?' Had to convert those vile pagans and their evil gift giving holiday. :rolleyes:

I would be interested in seeing some Latin American calendrical systems; perhaps the Mayan or Incan calenders. If I remember right, according to the Incan calender, which runs in a spiral (incredibly fascinating!) we should be coming up to the end of the world, or a time of revolution or some such thing...

I'd love to see some other calendrical systems, especially non-Western, because it seems that beyond the West linear time is not such a definate. I'm sure that would probably be a pain to try and code though...

EH? well ive never even heard of this CE system, never mind anyone that uses it. I'm an Atheist and i use AD and BC, and always will. Though i always did think it was a bit silly using it in civ, can you imagine the people?
"what year is it bob?"
"3980"
"Why we counting down?"
"i dunno, maybe we'll find out in the year 0"

I guess we'll also find out when the Mayan calander finishes on 2012 or 0 if its the time of the second coming.

(Note to self: Stop reading conspiracy theory websites)

I've always wondered what's so common about the common era. Someone should have been able to come up with a better name than that.

I'm actually somewhat partial to going back to the Roman system of counting since the founding of Rome. That would be pretty cool.

You mention relgion anywhere, and you get a whine/debate...!

If a person does not approve of a mod that threatens their precious faith, don't use it.

Let people mod CIV4 as they see fit.

:)

One relatively minor point:
1) Some historians used AD/BC until quite recently. The most recent work that I can remember off hand that used it was published in the late 80's. It largely depends on the time period that the historian works in. Unless you are looking at modern history (or pulp history) you'll still be seeing a whole lotta AD's where you might expect a CE. Hence, calling the system archaic is anachronistic. Even in modern history circles, using AD instead of CE is like using contractions. Some people get uppity about it, but in the end it doesn’t matter.

On a tangent, if nothing else the AD/BC system is useful since it was the first to allow one to count backwards in history. Makes dating the age of the earth much easier.

However many cultures dated from the start of their lord's rule. I wonder if it would be possible to fetch the initials of the player's name and include those into the dating system. A sort of "in the year of the player."

The AD/BC system isn't used in humanities because it implies a position of belief: "Anno Domini" is "The Year of Our Lord".

On a sidenote, any chance this could be made into a module?

This is so simple and good.

What discussions that still arise in this 1428th year after the Year of the Elephant. :shake:

Wasn't it Saturnalia that was 'copied/stolen?' Had to convert those vile pagans and their evil gift giving holiday. :rolleyes:

I would be interested in seeing some Latin American calendrical systems; perhaps the Mayan or Incan calenders. If I remember right, according to the Incan calender, which runs in a spiral (incredibly fascinating!) we should be coming up to the end of the world, or a time of revolution or some such thing...

I'd love to see some other calendrical systems, especially non-Western, because it seems that beyond the West linear time is not such a definate. I'm sure that would probably be a pain to try and code though...

There's actually dozens of festivals at that time all of which are based on the winter solstice. The specific festivals co-opted were the Greco-Roman Saturnalia and the Wiccan/Nordic Yule (hence Yuletide). After that Easter falls on the Festival of fertility at the Spring Equinox.

The cyclical calender you're refering to is (as mentioned in the post below yours) the Mayan Long Count, though if I recall correctly we're only coming up to the end of the Short Count (a time of great upheaval) and the Long Count doesn't end until something like the year 30,000 AD/CE.

More on topic just about any calendar other that something based on the founding of your civ' is going to be hopelessly inaccurate. Such as my personal favourite (and probably wholly imaginary): Terrestrial Era and Cosmological Era, centered on Yuri Gagarin's space flight.

Ah, the politically correct colleges invented new politically correct dating names for "more professional" use!?!?

Shows I'm hanging with the wrong crowd in my old age, as I've NEVER heard of this "Common Era" terminology... guess that's cuz I don't hang around college campuses or the young pups on them!

As a clarification, I'm a grumpy old man by most folks thinking, and I'm marginally religous. I claim to be Christian, but I haven't stepped inside a church in a couple of decades I think.

Having said that, everyone I know, talk to, and converse with considers this 2007 A.D. (though we rarely say "Year of our Lord" unless we're looking for a chuckle, and then we have to do it with a Shakespearian accent).

I'm not much of one for liking political correctness, which this "common era" seems to originate from... don't want to offend anyone, but I've never heard of it before (then again, I don't hang-out on college campuses). Of course, I can assure anyone who spends a lot of time on college campuses listening to professors that the real world don't operate like Berkeley campus!

Still... "whatever floats your boat" is my motto... if you go around saying "in the year of our 2007 Common Era", more power to you. I spent 20 years of my life in the military trying to ensure everybody can think, say and act in whatever belief system they so desire... Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Athiest, whatever... oh, and my (rather younger) wife calls herself an "Agnostic"... which to me is just fancy-talk for "Athiest", but that's another politically-correct thing I guess... I'm actually pretty easy going (well, wouldn't I be if I'm a Christian married to an Athiest?).

I guess I'll have to ask my wife about this "Common Era" stuff when I get home. Never heard of it... maybe she has...

Have fun with this mod guys... I might say "in the year of our Lord" a few times today just to get some chuckles... but seriously, nobody I know has ever used the term "Common Era"... guess you learn something new every day... and I learned it here on this forum!

Hope I didn't offend anyone... this has just been a mindless Wolf-rant with no purpose!

[..] oh, and my (rather younger) wife calls herself an "Agnostic"... which to me is just fancy-talk for "Athiest", [..]

Obviously I don't know precisely what your wife means when she says she's Agnostic but as a rule an Agnostic beliefs in God, but not any of the dogmas put forth by Organised Religion. So not really an Atheist. :)

It can get a little muddied though, by the loosest of definitions I could be Agnostic, wheras really I'm just an Atheist who happens to believe in some of the tennants of Buddhism.

I dunno... my wife says she doesn't believe in God (which I call an Athiest), but she keeps telling me she's Agnostic. :crazyeye:

Nonetheless, she refers to everything as BC & AD in terms of years... and for the "Common Era" to be the non-religous political correct term for years, we're still in the Common Era year of 2007... which last time I checked was based on the birth of a religous figure. If it was "Common Era" year 6472, I might believe it wasn't based on a Christian birth-date.

The point is that it is neutral. It could be the hula hoop or donut calendar. It does not matter. The important thing is people do not follow the Christian calendar in many other countries.