We have come to the point where we must decide on when/if the attack on MIA is going to happen. By the looks of the discussion we have 3 options.
1. Attacking MIA on turn 104 starting a guerilla-type war where we use the speed of GS's to slowly cripple MIA into despotism. We will have our FP up by then a will prolly be able to send troops enough to be a real pain in the greeks behinds.
2. Hold our horses and wait for MT and in the meantime focus on building up on (and beyond) MIA. Then launch the cav storm.
3. Not attack at all.

I didn't vote since I'm no expert at warmongering. I would like to see our agreement in place with Dnuts before attacking to ensure that they don't join a dogpile.

voted "on turn 104" but really meant on or around turn 104. No need to telegraph the 1st move.

I'm with Grahamiam on this. We should continue build up and prepare but not move in on 104.

I agree w Gram and slinger and it was clumsy to say "on" 104. What I really mean is "as soon as people with know how say we are enough prepared and our troops are in the right position and we will aiming to get there asap" :D .
Speaking of right positions isn't it time for the ones actually playing the war turns to make suggestions on where to place what?
I know we have said move all available GS's south, but does that still hold? Should we stash some cash to make investigations before we strike?
What is the best use for those warriors we still have?
What do we do with our 2 curraghs?
Etc...:confused:
I could make lots of suggestions but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be the best ones on this team :lol:

Let them sweat until we can go in force. Given the productivity of our towns I think hitting them @110 should be feasible.

Build up on both flanks then strike hard into the central luxury areas. Taking out their luxes and using the jungels for cover will be to our advantage. It will hurt them badly and we can then roll in from both sides wasting the land and skirmishing as we go.

Of course this depends on the nature of their defenses and the locations, but it will only take a couple of "no research" turns to get the necessary cash.

@Bede: I think they will stack up their defences in those lux cities; I think we should initially bypass them altogether. Some GS are in position to sever lux roads though.

General thoughts. Devote all resources to war, i.e. research to a single scientist, all core cities build military. Wait to see what, if anything, MIA is throwing at us after turn 104. Prioritize severing their luxes, try to raze poorly defended coastal cities, try to trigger GA without triggering theirs. Attack all out when strong enough.

I voted on turn 104. If I play any of the turns, I'd want someone else holding my hand on MSN so that I don't do anything stupid. I tend to get over-ambitious and attack stupidly during a war.

But since this has greater meaning than my SP games, I WILL be more careful... Just don't want to not attack when I shoudl have.

I voted none. I think the element of surprise is gone and 4.2.1 MI with 1.3.1 hops is a war no one will win at this point.

I think the surprise would be taking out TNT.

Total element of surprise
They're weak vs. us and as we saw immortals are no match vs. speed.
They need to focus on economy after one of their core cities was razed.
We know where their iron is.
They will likely be in anarchy within the next 10 turns and a republic while we move to monarchy.
Indirectly it will hurt MIA on the research front.
We can focus on some boats and they can not.
Their coastal city near our furs city is empty.
Etc etc

I want war. really don't care who. I don't know if I can take waiting another 50 turns or so before blood is spilled.

TNT would be fine with me. We have a couple of coastal cities on harbor builds and they could be switched to galleys. We need one city to be a harbor since we have 2 curraphs and could upgrade them.

Attacking TNT will invite MIA to attack us. Therefore, as I see it, either way, we're at war with MIA. Might as well take on only 1 at a time instead of 2.

Attacking TNT will invite MIA to attack us. Therefore, as I see it, either way, we're at war with MIA. Might as well take on only 1 at a time instead of 2.
Not if we negotiate peace terms and they've continually expressed a willingness for this. Chamnix was concerned about fighting in republic so maybe we use this angle with MIA.

The bottom line for me is I'd like to see some of our heavy hitters play some saves. This is when we need you guys.

I'm in favor of Bede's plan. Crakie may have mis interpreted Bede saying strike luxury areas as being the cities but I think he means wasting the roads out in that area with pillaging. Our skirmishing ability should help save lives and if we can take down a few cities which I am 95% sure will have token defense we should get the immediate edge. 3 GS each on 4-5 single hop defended cities will put the fear of God in MIA.
We should be able to defend with 4-5 GS. Our out skirt cities can have thier defenders peek out for incoming and the GS can arrive in 2 turns.

I would be nervous about taking out TNT. It would really leave that whole continent for the Nuts to develop on their own.

I don't think that we would be strong enough to maintain a credible defens on Battle Isle with anything more than a handful of cities. Besieds, depending on what our development plans are, the Forbiden Palace would need to be on Battle Isle if we are serious about having a substantail presence there.

I WOULD be comfortable with planting some defendable cities on that continet. Grab some lux. Be seen. It may even lend itself to stratigic surprise if we talk nice to MIA and they see what appears to be a beach-head forming on the other continent. (The questsion is whether the diversion of resources makes a material difference in our work against MIA).

But IMHO, if our designs on the other continent are anything other than strictly limited it is over reaching.

Besides, we may need TNT in the future. If the game continues into the Industrial Age we might have to make a tech/gold transfer to a smallish, embittered blood-foe of the Nuts.

I'd be fine with helping our new 'allies' with abit of raiding, but if they want TNT out of it, let the Nuts do the bleeding.

I'm in favor of Bede's plan. Crakie may have mis interpreted Bede saying strike luxury areas as being the cities but I think he means wasting the roads out in that area with pillaging. Our skirmishing ability should help save lives and if we can take down a few cities which I am 95% sure will have token defense we should get the immediate edge. 3 GS each on 4-5 single hop defended cities will put the fear of God in MIA.
We should be able to defend with 4-5 GS. Our out skirt cities can have thier defenders peek out for incoming and the GS can arrive in 2 turns.

'slinger has it on the nose. I dallied with the notion of taking the towns than changed my mind so the expression of my idea was not as clear as it should have been.

Ro restate: make a feint in strength at the center, cutting the roads and isolating the towns. Come down on both flanks with 3-5 GS stacks, then despoil the lands hoping to lure them out where we can make tactical withdrawals to join up with arrriving reinforcements, doing our best to weaken or kill whatever gets sent after us. Then come in force and pillage and plunder as appropriate.

Ok, thanks for clearing that up, Bede, I'm on board. I will not deny Tubby's notion we really need a war to keep things interesting though.

I don't like the notion of taking on war with TNT, we'd be doing the Nutters' job in the long run and MIA will get ambitious.

EDIT: How are we going to defend OUR lux cities?

I voted for a Guerilla war. Let's start on turn 104

How are we going to defend OUR lux cities?Hopefully by killing them before they get a chance to do that.

Latest on the Diplo front in the MIA thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3716451&postcount=346)

they're splitting hairs. go to war as soon as prudent

I still think there's still another option...
MIA is willing to make peace. Could we have a 40 turn peace so we can catch up technologically with them? All we need is MI, LB's and buchets to get back with them. This will happen with our combined research with Donut.


In the meantime, we can pound on their research partner, indirectly hurting MIA's research, it would be a total surprise, TNT is weak to us, they have undefended coastal cities and are likely focused on getting back into the game with infrastructure/settler builds so no new units.
All the while Donut and us are researching away.

Too much?

I think that since the admins treat treaties as unbreakable, we should sign a peace treaty with MIA to the effect of this1. Cultural borders should be respected and not encroached upon for 40 turns
2. KISS and MIA under no circumstances can declare war on each other for 40 turns
3. No future or past treaties can override this treaty.

If we get this signed by them, then we could be free to go harass TNT and have some GA turns while continue building forces for the eventual fight with MIA.

I really think we should consider this option seriously. They're willing.

i'm fine with it.

Hops and MI seem to be too much to handle right now IMO. We have no defense against jungle, hill mountain hops/MI combos. I'm afraid we'd lose our jungle lux cities if they came straight at us.
We can become the fur traders from the north with TNT's empty city west of our fur town. Any ETA on when we can put out 3-4 boats of GS'?

On a sidenote.. The other part of this is I'm a lot more confident in us lackeys kicking Donsig's butt than Chamnix' butt if our big players aren't playing the save. :mischief:
.

I am not opossed. But I have to ask again, how big a chunk are we going to take of the other Island? Can we 'manage' it efficiently? Will we be giving the Nuts unrestricted growth potential without any enemy on the island?

A headlong rush into MIA looks unappealing right now (gurilla warefare sounds fun, but headlong is going to get bloody). But I don't like the idea of taking away a counterbalance that can keep the Nuts looking over their shoulder.

Whoes to say that once TNT is gone, weakening MIA which would be isolated, that as we grow in power of the 40 turns that Nuts wouldn't foster an attack on us sicne we would be their major competition.

I'm just paranoid.

Since I'm suggesting this I'll try to address some of your concerns.
I am not opossed. But I have to ask again, how big a chunk are we going to take of the other Island? Can we 'manage' it efficiently? Will we be giving the Nuts unrestricted growth potential without any enemy on the island? Since both teams are at peace unrestricted growth for Nuts is good for our alliance from a tech standpoint and indirectly very bad for MIA's tech situation. We get a GA and Nuts is able to strengthen their research capabilites (for us as well) in the process. Ultimately, a strong alliance benefit to both Nuts and us. Since we are so far away from each other any war with them is remote due to the agreement we're working on through the MA's and wouldn't happen till sometime in the industrial age.

A headlong rush into MIA looks unappealing right now (gurilla warefare sounds fun, but headlong is going to get bloody). But I don't like the idea of taking away a counterbalance that can keep the Nuts looking over their shoulder. I don't want sound pessimistic here but attacking MIA within the next 30 ish turns is suicide until we can get "4" attack units.
They are in a much better position to take cities from us than us them. I know we talk about pillaging and skirmishing but 2 hops/2 MI attacking Effing is a losing proposition for sure.


Whoes to say that once TNT is gone, weakening MIA which would be isolated, that as we grow in power of the 40 turns that Nuts wouldn't foster an attack on us sicne we would be their major competition.
I'm assuming our agreement with Donut is signed. So they have a peace agreement with us through the end of MA.

Two peace agreements. One short term for 40 turns (MIA) and a 2nd long term through the MA (Donut)

[QUOTE=Whomp]Since I'm suggesting this I'll try to address some of your concerns.
Since both teams are at peace unrestricted growth for Nuts is good for our alliance from a tech standpoint and indirectly very bad for MIA's tech situation. We get a GA and Nuts is able to strengthen their research capabilites (for us as well) in the process. Ultimately, a strong alliance benefit to both Nuts and us. Since we are so far away from each other any war with them is remote due to the agreement we're working on through the MA's and wouldn't happen till sometime in the industrial age. [QUOTE]

You're logic is compelling, and I'm inclined to agree.

However, don't forget that the research pace will be set by the slowest partner, if we lag they will slow up and bank their gold, just as we would if the positions are reversed.

Also, the governance of our overseas holdings is still a question for me. Should we switch our FP to the Great Library and then make the FP overseas?

Otherwise, I'm in favor of Whomp's proposal. But let's hurry and put some deep hurting on TNT - I want a GA!!!

With 5 luxs online and monarchy as a government option I don't think we will be dragging research down too much. TNT without Carpetbomb is already dragging down MIA. TNT can't outproduce us. Boats, units, settlers, anything...

As well, since we're gifting Donut into the next age so we can request they research some of the more expensive techs.

The Glib is not necessary since we are already in the MA's IMO. The FP will have significantly greater long term impact.

FYI... TNT will have pikes now. Albeit more expensive hops, they are still the same stats.

FYI... TNT will have pikes now. Albeit more expensive hops, they are still the same stats.
A couple things make a difference though. We will have Pikes, MI, LB's (some of these) by the time they can mount a counteroffensive. In the meantime we can wreak havoc, pillaging and destroying everything in sight with our speed. IMO it's the boats that will make the difference here. We can produce them and have a reason to make them and they don't (at least now). This is the true skirmishing war our GS need. Hit, run, jump on a boat and repeat.

Think about it...if we lost a size 8 coastal city like they did how many pikes could they make? As well, they're behind the eight ball on growth, anarchy turns etc. They will not be focused on military builds and the furs not being guarded also means no furs for MIA.

It's a calculated risk I'd be willing to take over any actions with MIA where the odds seemed stacked against us.

As always, POTKiss your logic is compelling and backed by facts.Four boatloads of GS and pikes/longbows would deliver some hurt to both parties.

I have switched Jesterton to galley duty. Also some of the GS are moving westward. I've also started the curraph moving to Notthefullshilling for an upgrade and should reach it just as the harbor is complete.

So all of a sudden the team has changed it's mind??? I for one am still not convinced, although Whomp did have some points. The best reason I can see to attack TNT is to trigger our GA. In the end we would still be doing the Nutter's job and in the long run clear their continent for them.

I was mainly wanting to go after TNT for the ivory. Now that we will be getting free ivory from MIA, I'm not so sure that it's necessary. It would be nice to trigger a GA.

I am scared that we'll be fighting a losing battle against MIA. 50% survival rate is not good IMO.

TNT could be a nice little distraction for us. I think that we would benefit from a small war and also weaken TNT to a point that they wouldn't be able to threaten seriously again.

Peace in this game won't last too long. 4 teams going for space just won't happen. I would rather a war with us involved be on our terms instead of an attack that we hadn't seen coming.

The ivory we receive from MIA is not permanent so getting it is still important.

I second the TNT thing, esp. with furs and ivory at stake and a FP ready really soon.

Why do we need furs? We have two sources and all taking theirs will do is deny only TNT from furs. There is furs at the southern choke between MIA & D'nut

It's probably a little late for me to respond tho this thread... (was I even on the team then?)

I voted "no war" because neither "the holy day of Meleet" nor "Last Saturday" were listed in the poll. :crazyeye:

It's probably a little late for me to respond tho this thread... (was I even on the team then?)

I voted "no war" because neither "the holy day of Meleet" nor "Last Saturday" were listed in the poll. :crazyeye::confused:

Yes it is ...

:confused:

Yes it is ...
:rotfl:
I guess when you're a Deity, you can make anything so....even change history, huh? :mischief:

:confused:

Yes it is ...Somebody's jagging you Rik. They just updated the poll in the last day or so.

I can't change my vote. Dangit. :cry: