The Good

Bannor
Scheduled for: Light
Alignment: Good (Law)
Race: Human
Enemies: Doviello, Clan of Embers
Leader:
[tab]Sabathiel (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Sabathiel.jpg) (Org/Mag)
[tab]Capria (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Capria.jpg) (Ind/Spi)
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Bannor.mp3
Desc: Sabathiel is an angel of Junil sent to save a group of honorable spirits trapped in Hell. He did so, training them to be strong warriors and bringing them out of hell into the world in responce to the attacks of the Clan of Embers.

Malakim
Scheduled for: Light
Alignment: Good (Sun)
Race: Human
Enemies: Svartalfar
Leader:
[tab]Varn Gosam (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Varn.jpg) (Cre/Fin)
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Malakim.mp3
Desc: Elven servants of Arawn fled his domain into the shadowed vale, a valley kept perpetually in darkness by a thick mist that obscured the border between the vale and the world. There is a long story here, but the short of it is that Auric (as a teenager) and some friends were trapped in the vale and and accused of stealing from the elves. Varn was one of the elves and he believed the kids (Varn had never fit in well with his fellow elves). When he tried to sneak them out of the vale his brother caught them and an elven band was sent to catch them, and kill the kids (these weren't exactly your nice type of elves). Auric was just growing into his affinity for magic at the time and as the elven band set upon them and killed a few of the kids he reached through the vale for any source of magic he could find to use. The faint source he felt through it was the Sun, when he pulled it through he destroyed the barrier between the worlds and flooded the perpetually dark vale with light. The elvish band was blinded but Varn underwent a transformation, he saw Lugus in that light and was rewarded for his commitment to the truth (by trying to save the kids) by becoming a priest of Lugus. He left the Vale and built a temple to Lugus in a human city leading those that would follow him in the path of light.

Elohim
Scheduled for: Light
Alignment: Good (Spirit)
Race: Human
Enemies: Calabim
Leader:
[tab]Ethne the White (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Ethne.jpg) (Cre/Def/Spi)
[tab]Einion Logos (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Einion.jpg) (Def/Phi/Spi)
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Elohim.mp3
Desc: The Elohim are caretakers of the holy places of the world. The Pool of Tears (where angels come to mourn), the Seven Firs (where the gods met to sign the compact), Bradelines Well (gate to the underworld). They are peaceful and battle only when they or their lands are threatened.

Mercurians (minor Civ)
Scheduled for: Fire
Alignment: Good (Life)
Race: Human
Enemies: Sidar, Infernal
Leader:
[tab]Basium (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Basium.jpg) (Agg/Rai)
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Mercurians.mp3
Desc: Basium broke the compact. He was an angel under Arawn but when the contract was signed he refused to give up the direct battle with the demons. So he and a small host of other rebel angels disobeyed their lords and kept fighting. They spend their time split between time on earth and in hell waqging their war directly. They can be found anywhere demons exist. They care little for people, they are only concerned with killing demons and are often confused with demons because of it and because of their rough warlike appearence.

Luchuirp
Scheduled for: Light
Alignment: Good
Race: Dwarf
Enemies: Sheaim, Balseraphs
Leader:
[tab]Garrim Gyr (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Garrim.jpg) (Arc/fin)
[tab]Beeri Bawl (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Beeri.jpg) (Org/Spi)
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Luchuirp.mp3
Desc: Dwarven enchanters and creators of the greatest of artifacts during the age of magic. They are only now begining to regain the secrets lost during the age of ice. They are the originators of golem creation and use a wide varity of golems for different military and non-military tasks.

Kuriotates
Scheduled for: Light
Alignment: Good (Creation)
Race: Human
Enemies: Infernal, Calabim
Leader:
[tab]Cardith Lorda (the boy king) (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Cardith.jpg) (Exp/Phi/Spr)
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Kuriatates.mp3 (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Kuriotates.mp3)
Desc: Bands of wild people finally brought together under one banner after the Age of Ice, but surprisingly that banner isn't held by a powerful spellcaster or warlord, but by a child barely more than 10. Yet Cardith possesses a wisdom well beyond his years and the calm control he holds over his kingdom has earned him legions of guardians more than willing to lay down their life for him.


The Neutral

Ljosalfar
Scheduled for: Light
Alignment: Neutral (Nature)
Race: Elf
Enemies: Svartalfar, Illians
Leader:
[tab]Amelanchier (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Amelanchier.jpg) (Def/Exp/Rai)
[tab]Arendel Phaedra (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Arendel.jpg) (Cre/Spi)
[tab]Thessa (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Thessa.jpg) (Arc/Sum)
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Ljosalfar.mp3
Desc: Elves! Their god was killed and they were nearly wiped out because of it during the Age of Ice. With his ressurection (or more importantly the promotion of Cernunnos as the new god of nature) they are coming back from the few hidden groves they still controlled.

Khazad
Scheduled for: Light
Alignment: Neutral (Earth)
Race: Dwarf
Enemies: Hippus
Leader:
[tab]Arturus Thorne (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Arturus.jpg) (Ind/Org)
[tab]Kandros Fir (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Kandros.jpg) (Agg/Fin)
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Khazad.mp3
Desc: The more traditional dwarven civ the Khazad tend toward priest and warrior vocations. What few mages they have are humans recruited to their cause.

Sidar
Scheduled for: Shadow
Alignment: Neutral (Death)
Race: Human (sorta)
Enemies: Calabim, Mercurians
Leader:
[tab]Morgoth (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Morgoth.jpg) (Hid/Ind)
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Sidar.mp3
Desc: Shades, men who have traded portions of their soul for immortality, the Grey are detached from the events of the world. Only intervening to protect themselves or striking out to destroy undead (they see undeads as abberations despite their own use of magic to extend their life).

Lanun
Scheduled for: Light
Alignment: Neutral (Water)
Race: Human Pirates
Enemies: Clan of Embers
Leader:
[tab]Falamar (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Falamar.jpg) (Cre/Exp)
[tab]Hannah the Irin (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Hannah.jpg) (Fin/Rai)
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Lanun.mp3
Desc: Falamar see's himself as a dashing rogue. He doesn't tend to kill the victims of the raids (claiming that would keep them from bringing him more loot) and is an excellent swordsman and charming leader. Hanna is everything he isn't. She is the storm personified, tempermental and powerful. She has had entire cities razed for a percieved insult and rules not by charm, but by fear.

Grigori
Scheduled for: Light
Alignment: Neutral (Force)
Race: Human
Enemies: Sheaim
Leader:
[tab]Cassiel (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Cassiel.jpg) (Agn/Ind/Phi)
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Grigori.mp3
Desc: Cassiel was an angel in the service of Dagda. He spent the age of dragons protecting the men that hid from the might of the warring gods around them. It was his council that lead Dagda to create and sign the compact, but Cassiel felt the compact didn't go far enough. He wanted the gods to retreat entirely, to let the men form their own world. When the Compact allowed the gods to battle through men Cassiel abandoned Dagda's service and began his own crusade to lead men away from a war that has little to do with them.

Hippus
Scheduled for: Light
Alignment: Neutral (Air)
Race: Human Horsemen
Enemies: Khazad
Leader:
[tab]Tasunke (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Tasunke.jpg) (Agg/Rai)
[tab]Rhoanna (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Rhoanna.jpg) (Exp/Fin)
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Hippus.mp3
Desc: Warriors for hire, the swift moving Hippus have fought for every nation at one time or another. They are equally happy partnered with orcs as they are with men as long as they pay.

Amurites
Scheduled for: Light
Alignment: Neutral (Metamagic)
Race: Human
Enemies: None
Leader:
[tab]Valledia the Even (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Valledia.jpg) (Arc/Org)
[tab]Dain the Casswallawn (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Dain.jpg) (Mag/Phi)
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Amurites.mp3
Desc: Although few know it, the Amurites are the descendants of Kyorlin. Because of that they have a powerful bond with magic and even the warriors amoung their ranks often know a spell or two.


The Evil

Doviello
Scheduled for: Light
Alignment: Evil (Chaos)
Race: Human Beastmen
Enemies: Bannor
Leader:
[tab]Charadon (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Charadon.jpg) (Agg/Bar)
[tab]Mahala (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Mahala.jpg) (Ind/Rai)
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Doviello.mp3
Desc: No one is sure what the Doviello were before the Age of Ice, most likely men from many nations. But instead of retreating to caves to last out the cold they became wild men barely surviving on the surface, raiding and killing any groups they found. They continue their habits even as the other nations try to settle on the surface.

Balseraphs
Scheduled for: Light
Alignment: Evil (Mind)
Race: Human Carnival
Enemies: Luchuirp
Leader:
[tab]Perpentach (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Perpentach.jpg) (Cre/Phi)
[tab]Keelyn (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Keelyn.jpg) (Cre/Sum) (nikis-knight)
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Balseraphs.mp3
Desc: Perpentach is insane. He belives the world is a carnival and he is its shadow prince. Speaking in rhyme, creating morbid amusements for himself and his people. He is nearly impossible to deal with and quick to turn on you.

Clan of Embers
Scheduled for: Light
Alignment: Evil (Fire)
Race: Orc
Enemies: Bannor, Lanun
Leader:
[tab]Jonas Endain (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Jonas.jpg) (Bar/Exp/Sco/Spi)
[tab]Sheelba (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Sheelba.jpg) (Agg/Bar/Mag/Sco)
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Clanofembers.mp3
Desc: Once fair creatures and friends to the elves the orcs were cursed and enraged when Bhall fell. Jonas is much more quiet and controled than his fellow orcs but even he carries a mace with the head of a young girl as the ball, when he raises it in combat the lips peal back showing sharp teeth and she screams.

Svartalfar
Scheduled for: Shadow
Alignment: Evil (Shadow)
Race: Dark Elf
Enemies: Malakim, Ljosalfar
Leader:
[tab]Faeryl Viconia (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Faeryl.jpg) (Arc/Hid)
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Svartalfar.mp3
Desc: During the Age of Magic the elves were ruled by two seperate courts. The Seelie court (the fairer and more spiritual) ruled during the spring and summer and the Unseelie court (the more arcane and malevolent) ruled during the autumn and winter. When Sucellus died the elven prayers went unanswered. Because the Unseelie court was in power when it happened they decreed that the elven diety was gone and that Esus would be adopted in his place. Normally the Seelie court would wait for spring and then reverse the ruling, but spring never came as the Age of Ice began. The Unseelie court saw this as a symbol of their dominance and began to punish elves that refused to stop worshipping Sucellus. This caused a bloody civil war within the elven nation during a time when their numbers were already hard hit. The Age of Ice eventually stopped the war as bands were seperated by expanses they couldn't cross. Now that the Age of Ice is over they are free to reach out and begin their war anew.

Calabim, the Order of Blood
Scheduled for: Light
Alignment: Evil (Body)
Race: Human, Vampire Aristocracy
Enemies: Elohim, Kuriotates, Sidar
Leader:
[tab]Alexis (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Alexis.jpg) (Agg/Phi)
[tab]Flauros (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Flauros.jpg) (Exp/Org)
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Calabim.mp3
Desc: A vampire aristocracy ruling over a human population that serves them as little more than blood puppets. There is no worse fate for a child than to born into the cities of the Calabim. Breeding pits, slavery, and treatment which wouldnt be acceptable for animals in most civlizations are common, while the vampire live lives of lush pleasure.

Sheaim
Scheduled for: Light
Alignment: Evil (Dimensional)
Race: Human
Enemies: Luchuirp, Grigori
Leader:
[tab]Tebryn Arbandi (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Tebryn.jpg) (Arc/Sum)
[tab]Os-Gabella (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Os-Gabella.jpg) (Spi/Sum)
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Sheaim.mp3
Desc: Tebryn was the first to discover the power of the Armgedddon spells and means to cast them until the world is destroyed. His armies are schools of mages seeking to train under the archmage, they are not born in his lands but come seeking a bit of his power.

Infernal (minor Civ)
Scheduled for: Fire
Alignment: Evil (Entropy)
Race: Demon
Enemies: Mercurians, Kuriotates
Leader:
[tab]Hyborem (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Hyborem.jpg) (Bar/Sco/Sum)
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Infernal.mp3
Desc: Demons, denizens of Hell. They hope to open up gates to the world of man and then either conquer it or pull the entire plane into Hell.

Illians (minor Civ)
Scheduled for: Ice
Alignment: Evil (Winter)
Race: Human
Enemies: Svartalfar
Leader:
[tab]Auric Ulvin (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Auric.jpg) (Agn/Mag/Phi)
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Illians.mp3
Desc: Auric is the reincarnation of Mulcarn, a dead god born as a man. His power is just a shadow now as it is scattered across the planes but he, or more correctly the voice inside him, means to regain it.

Reserved for ideas under consideration.

I want to propose that we create at least one civ that is completely different from the others.

Here an example of what i am thinking:
Some time ago using FfH 0.9 i created a giant civ (as the Giant Slaying promotion was quite useless until that moment). The idea was that the civ should be quite pure so that there is a straightforward way of playing with it. I therefore disabled nearly all buildings for them (giants are not good at doing craftmanship or building cathedrals) and replaced their units with 7 unique giant units (Settler, Worker, warrior, axeman, macemen, berserker and a giant catapult - no fancy waepons or beliefs for giants) that were about 30% to 40% stronger than their counterparts and much more expansive. They got a small set of available promotions.

As you can imagine they are really strong at the begining but their power fades when others get the more complicated things. Of course this was only a very done fast hack but it gave quite a feel running around with the giants and triing not to get outproduced and completely outteched.

How did the Giants eventually do? Did they play well? I like the idea of certain races being better at the beginning and then falling behind later. It'd be cool if they could enslave other civs and gain their know-how when they sense themselves lagging behind.

I want to propose that we create at least one civ that is completely different from the others.

Here an example of what i am thinking:
Some time ago using FfH 0.9 i created a giant civ (as the Giant Slaying promotion was quite useless until that moment). The idea was that the civ should be quite pure so that there is a straightforward way of playing with it. I therefore disabled nearly all buildings for them (giants are not good at doing craftmanship or building cathedrals) and replaced their units with 7 unique giant units (Settler, Worker, warrior, axeman, macemen, berserker and a giant catapult - no fancy waepons or beliefs for giants) that were about 30% to 40% stronger than their counterparts and much more expansive. They got a small set of available promotions.

As you can imagine they are really strong at the begining but their power fades when others get the more complicated things. Of course this was only a very done fast hack but it gave quite a feel running around with the giants and triing not to get outproduced and completely outteched.

This may be doable, we would have to create a set of buildings for them, scaled way up so their cities look like giant cities.

When i played them i lost i got a real good start and was able to crush my neighbors and dominate my small continent but when i tried invading the other continent (oh forgot to mention the giant galley (prerequiste was the same as galleon)) my invadings force was lost two times and i was starting to become seriously outteched.

When playing against them (small pangea) i really feared them as there where a lot of giant axemen at the borders that let me live under the tread of an quick and brutal invasion. Fortunatley i had not modded the Leader to be kind of a Monty and won by religios victory. If i do them for 1.0 i will definatly make them very aggressive....

This may be doable, we would have to create a set of buildings for them, scaled way up so their cities look like giant cities.

When playing them i thought about that but i prefered playing at that time. You know creating an ERA_GIANT and the Buildings going with it would not be a problem... maybe we could even use another trigger in the LSystems but until now i had no luck with the ones i tried..

When playing them i thought about that but i prefered playing at that time. You know creating an ERA_GIANT and the Buildings going with it would not be a problem... maybe we could even use another trigger in the LSystems but until now i had no luck with the ones i tried..

What happens when another civ takes a Giant's city or visa versa? Maybe Giants can only raze? And you could seriously subdivide the Giants' houses into condos ;)

What happens when another civ takes a Giant's city or visa versa? Maybe Giants can only raze? And you could seriously subdivide the Giants' houses into condos ;)

The non-human freindly civs (demons and orcs) are set to have to raze cities. I would imagine giants should be the same way.

What about hybrids? What happens when a Human civ takes over an Elven city? The game lasts for centuries....will there be cross-pollination? I'm not trying to shoehorn half-this and half-that, but when dealing with races I don't see how they can stay pure.

You could simply say they are separate species and there are no half-breeds.

You could simply say they are separate species and there are no half-breeds.

Bad news for woodelfs wife.

Heh, the whole "culture" thing makes little sense when you think about it when you are considering different species as opposed to different nationalities. I just say that culture=breeding rate. So when a city's culture from one species goes up, I say that they bred more, and when another species' culture goes down in the same place, I say that they are not breeding as much and are dying from natural (or unnatural) causes faster than they are being born.

Here's an idea that may or may not be good:

Perhaps the leader of the civ could be a unique unit. Make them powerfull, but if you lose the unit, you lose. Kinda like the king in chess. You'd have to make sure whatever city they were in was well defended. (and the AI would have to understand the consequences of losing the unit as well)

Bad news for woodelfs wife.

We prefer the term hybrids to half-breeds....

We prefer the term hybrids to half-breeds....

:lol: :lol:

So you are plants?

While out skiing today, I did some thinking about the Celabim (well, the skiing pretty much does itself, and when you're on your own on a track you've skied dozens of times, you can put your mind to other uses).

I know you said you had ideas about the Celabim using humans (i.e. population) as a resource, but if that should turn out to be unworkable, I have some ideas that may achieve a similar effect.

Units: I thought of two spells the vampire UU should have. The first should be the ability to spread a kind of "vampirism light" to units as a promotion. It would give strength, first strike and perhaps LOS (nightvision or summat) bonuses to the "affected". Insofar as vampirism is a form of gift the vampires are unwilling to share, it makes sense to dangle it infront of powerful warriors as a reward.

The second was a regeneration/sacrifice spell (akin to Warcraft's "Devour"). This would allow the Vampires to "Sacrifice" units to drastically speed up regeneration for a turn/fully heal wounded units in a stack. Perhaps you could link this to the "Lite Vampirism", making the promotion extra useful. This spell would lead the Celabim to adopt a rather unique battle tactic of a handful of very powerful units along with hordes of weak units (warriors, workers, slaves and old, expensive-to-upgrade units) to be used for quick regeneration of the main force.

I have a mental image of the vampire as a rather weak, but immortal unit with a high movement rate and LOS, but more importantly, powerful spells like these and perhaps some more. They would turn out as a form of dark healer/scout. After all, they are an aristocracy, who rule not so much by their own strength as by using the strength of "lesser" beings.

Cities: If you cannot work humans as a resource, I suppose you would have to go for food and unhealthiness to achieve something similar, people sacrificed for gold and production. First of all, military units would have to use food to build. Sacrifice for production should ALWAYS be an option for the Celabim, perhaps even a bit cheaper than for others, to encourage their use.

Finally, I had an idea for a new specialist, either one you can assign as a result of a building ("Manor", "Spooky Old Castle", "Dark Palace" or similar), or who appear thru the sacrifice of a Vampire UU (like the Super Specialists). They'd represent the Vampire Aristocracy in the cities, and would provide large production, money and research bonuses, but cost food in addition to the food they use by merely existing (I was thinking -2 food/unhealthiness).

Particularly the Aristocrats would lead to a civilisation with small, but incredibly powerful economic cities placed in the middle of fertile areas. A Celabim/Veil civ would have enormous research capabilities, but small cities. A Celabim/Fellowship civ (who says vamps can't get along with elves) would perhaps be able to cancel out a bit of the negative effects, allowing even more vampires.

Just my two cents on the Celabim. They fascinate me.

1. While out skiing today, I did some thinking about the Celabim (well, the skiing pretty much does itself, and when you're on your own on a track you've skied dozens of times, you can put your mind to other uses).

2. I know you said you had ideas about the Celabim using humans (i.e. population) as a resource, but if that should turn out to be unworkable, I have some ideas that may achieve a similar effect.

3. Units: I thought of two spells the vampire UU should have. The first should be the ability to spread a kind of "vampirism light" to units as a promotion. It would give strength, first strike and perhaps LOS (nightvision or summat) bonuses to the "affected". Insofar as vampirism is a form of gift the vampires are unwilling to share, it makes sense to dangle it infront of powerful warriors as a reward.

4. The second was a regeneration/sacrifice spell (akin to Warcraft's "Devour"). This would allow the Vampires to "Sacrifice" units to drastically speed up regeneration for a turn/fully heal wounded units in a stack. Perhaps you could link this to the "Lite Vampirism", making the promotion extra useful. This spell would lead the Celabim to adopt a rather unique battle tactic of a handful of very powerful units along with hordes of weak units (warriors, workers, slaves and old, expensive-to-upgrade units) to be used for quick regeneration of the main force.

5. I have a mental image of the vampire as a rather weak, but immortal unit with a high movement rate and LOS, but more importantly, powerful spells like these and perhaps some more. They would turn out as a form of dark healer/scout. After all, they are an aristocracy, who rule not so much by their own strength as by using the strength of "lesser" beings.


1. That huge list of spells I posted earlier was all thought up while skiing.

2. I believe Kael's idea was to be able to sacrifice population to give vampires more XP.

3. I think that the vampires would be much more exclusive than this. What if they have the ability to sacrifice any unit in their stack to heal themselves by that unit's health.

4. See point 3

5. Yeah, they are more of a recon unit. Flying abilities of course. Maybe the only way to kill them is an undead slayign promotion or a spell. If something else killed him he would just be respawned int he city that built him.

2. I believe Kael's idea was to be able to sacrifice population to give vampires more XP.

3. I think that the vampires would be much more exclusive than this. What if they have the ability to sacrifice any unit in their stack to heal themselves by that unit's health.

2. I saw that after I wrote my ideas down.:blush:

3. I thought of something similar, but if they are immortal, that would make it less useful than otherwise, which is why I thought of expanding it.

@ Kael:
I think that calling the horse civ Hippus is a bit obvious (latin word for horse). IMO you should call it something like The Horse Lords.

I was personally thinking of having a civic: Vampire aristocracy.
It would give most of those effects you were talking about earlier.

Added themes for all the civ's that I have.

@ Kael:
I think that calling the horse civ Hippus is a bit obvious (latin word for horse). IMO you should call it something like The Horse Lords.

Now I would say "The Horse Lords" is even more obvious. :)

The reason I went with the slightly more obscure Hippus is because even though they are the best civ for mounted units they aren't going to be all mounted.

I added pics for all the leaders.

While out skiing today, I did some thinking about the Celabim (well, the skiing pretty much does itself, and when you're on your own on a track you've skied dozens of times, you can put your mind to other uses).

I know you said you had ideas about the Celabim using humans (i.e. population) as a resource, but if that should turn out to be unworkable, I have some ideas that may achieve a similar effect.

Units: I thought of two spells the vampire UU should have. The first should be the ability to spread a kind of "vampirism light" to units as a promotion. It would give strength, first strike and perhaps LOS (nightvision or summat) bonuses to the "affected". Insofar as vampirism is a form of gift the vampires are unwilling to share, it makes sense to dangle it infront of powerful warriors as a reward.

I agree with this, how about we put a minimum level on the action to show that the Vampires only gift the finest of their human servants.

The second was a regeneration/sacrifice spell (akin to Warcraft's "Devour"). This would allow the Vampires to "Sacrifice" units to drastically speed up regeneration for a turn/fully heal wounded units in a stack. Perhaps you could link this to the "Lite Vampirism", making the promotion extra useful. This spell would lead the Celabim to adopt a rather unique battle tactic of a handful of very powerful units along with hordes of weak units (warriors, workers, slaves and old, expensive-to-upgrade units) to be used for quick regeneration of the main force.

I definitly like this!

I have a mental image of the vampire as a rather weak, but immortal unit with a high movement rate and LOS, but more importantly, powerful spells like these and perhaps some more. They would turn out as a form of dark healer/scout. After all, they are an aristocracy, who rule not so much by their own strength as by using the strength of "lesser" beings.

Cities: If you cannot work humans as a resource, I suppose you would have to go for food and unhealthiness to achieve something similar, people sacrificed for gold and production. First of all, military units would have to use food to build. Sacrifice for production should ALWAYS be an option for the Celabim, perhaps even a bit cheaper than for others, to encourage their use.

Finally, I had an idea for a new specialist, either one you can assign as a result of a building ("Manor", "Spooky Old Castle", "Dark Palace" or similar), or who appear thru the sacrifice of a Vampire UU (like the Super Specialists). They'd represent the Vampire Aristocracy in the cities, and would provide large production, money and research bonuses, but cost food in addition to the food they use by merely existing (I was thinking -2 food/unhealthiness).

Particularly the Aristocrats would lead to a civilisation with small, but incredibly powerful economic cities placed in the middle of fertile areas. A Celabim/Veil civ would have enormous research capabilities, but small cities. A Celabim/Fellowship civ (who says vamps can't get along with elves) would perhaps be able to cancel out a bit of the negative effects, allowing even more vampires.

Just my two cents on the Celabim. They fascinate me.

So we have the fact that the vampires can:

1. Devour population to gain xp.
2. Devour other units to heal themselves.
3. Can gift vampirism to units of a high enough level.
4. Take increased damage from certain sun spells.
5. Have the undead promotion, making them vulnerable to anti-undead spells, minor strength and healing boost.
6. Possibly gain some minor spells with the ability to learn more from promotions.

Anything else?

I was personally thinking of having a civic: Vampire aristocracy.
It would give most of those effects you were talking about earlier.

Ill probably add a building to do it. I was thinking of a few calabim specific buildings.

1. Breeding pits (boosts pop growth, causes unhappy)
2. Govenors manor (increases production, reduces food)

Undead should be immune to poisons, meaning they'd not be as vulnerable to assassins. ( you can't backstab undead traditionally to boot)

Giants- (Chalid) Some time ago using FfH 0.9 i created a giant civ (as the Giant Slaying promotion was quite useless until that moment). The idea was that the civ should be quite pure so that there is a straightforward way of playing with it. I therefore disabled nearly all buildings for them (giants are not good at doing craftmanship or building cathedrals) and replaced their units with 7 unique giant units (Settler, Worker, warrior, axeman, macemen, berserker and a giant catapult - no fancy waepons or beliefs for giants) that were about 30% to 40% stronger than their counterparts and much more expansive. They got a small set of available promotions.

As you can imagine they are really strong at the begining but their power fades when others get the more complicated things. Of course this was only a very done fast hack but it gave quite a feel running around with the giants and triing not to get outproduced and completely outteched.

I dislike this idea. IMO giants should stay as they are, wild animals the same as dragons and minotaurs. However, that doesn't rule out the possibility of a civ that plays totally different from the others.

What about having each civ play extremly different from the others? I know that this would take a lot of work, but we should be able to come up with all of the necessary ideas. IMO even civ should play very different, with many unique units and buildings (and wonders). Civs would be able to cross spheres only in a few ways. a) find a different sphere's magic node. these nodes would appear throughout the map and have levels 1,2,3,4,5. at level 5 you would be almost as much in that sphere as the civ of that sphere, but not quite. IMO you could not get more than 12 magic nodes at the most, so each player could chose their extra spheres carefully. b) convert to a religion. each religion will have its specific spheres, so you could be very branched out.
--However, you can also get maic nodes of the same sphere as yourself. Each one would increase your special attributes, with a maximum of 6. You could also chose to convert to a religion mostly of your sphere, and end up being uber your sphere. Balance or specialization? Your choice. Civ's that end up choosing similar spheres will have similar play styles, but no two civs will ever have identical play styles.

So we have the fact that the vampires can:

1. Devour population to gain xp.
2. Devour other units to heal themselves.
3. Can gift vampirism to units of a high enough level.
4. Take increased damage from certain sun spells.
5. Have the undead promotion, making them vulnerable to anti-undead spells, minor strength and healing boost.
6. Possibly gain some minor spells with the ability to learn more from promotions.

Anything else?

Ignore movement costs as they are fliers?
Conduct limited espionage? Assination missions/ stealth attack?

Ill probably add a building to do it. I was thinking of a few calabim specific buildings.

1. Breeding pits (boosts pop growth, causes unhappy)
2. Govenors manor (increases production, reduces food)

1. Also unhelathy?
2. Increases gold and gives undead units a 25% defense bonus. Do you know how hard it is to take over a vampire's secret lair? Have you ever seen Van Helsing? (really bad movie btw)

Undead should be immune to poisons, meaning they'd not be as vulnerable to assassins. ( you can't backstab undead traditionally to boot)

Well they already would be fine against assasins, because they aren't melee type. OR are they?

Not all undead will be vampires, so even if vampires aren't melee, there might still be some melee undead-who shouldn't be weak against assassins.

Not all undead will be vampires, so even if vampires aren't melee, there might still be some melee undead-who shouldn't be weak against assassins.

I see what you mean. But i dont' quite agree. Isn't the only way to kill a vampire to assasinate him? A silver bullet in the back works much better than a regiment of infantry.

Silver bullets and such imply a promotion or holy spell ability, not poisons and backstabs. In lore, the best way to defeat a vampire has always been to confront them with holy power. Besides, assassins don't seem to be the type to carry around silver bullet loaded guns and holy symbols. ;)

1. Also unhelathy?
2. Increases gold and gives undead units a 25% defense bonus. Do you know how hard it is to take over a vampire's secret lair? Have you ever seen Van Helsing? (really bad movie btw)
1. Initially I would agree that the pits also should add unhealthy, but adding unhealthiness while increasing population growth seems a bit self-defeating.
2. I thought it was an excellent movie. I saw it with some friends and we laughed all the way through from start to finish. Oh... What do you mean it isn't a parody?

How many UU's are you expecting for each civ? I'm hoping for armies of them, but probably you'd just want one of two.

Also, how many unique buildings?

1. Initially I would agree that the pits also should add unhealthy, but adding unhealthiness while increasing population growth seems a bit self-defeating.


Maybe added unhealthy, but whenever city grew it gained two population instead of one? This might cause lots of starvation, but also give many victims for the vampires.

Instead of unhealthiness, reduce culture by 50%. The people aren't going to be singing any ballads or painting many canvasses in a city where people are bred as cattle.

I think the vampire lords would take great care to make sure that their food is as healthy as possible. They'd kill anyone who got too bad of a case of the sniffles, and subject everyone to rigorous health examinations. People would become little more than blood bags, but they'd be kept in as good a physical (but not mental, the vamps won't care about that) condition as possible. I don't think they'd want to drink the blood of filthy vermin if they could help it.

I'd give the breeding pits +4 healthy, -4 happyness, -50% culture.
Change the name to the Blood Pens.

I'd give the breeding pits +4 healthy, -4 happyness, -50% culture.
Change the name to the Blood Pens.

Okay, but also have it give double pop growth when food bar is filled.

That works. With the reduced culture, most of the extra citizens will be forced into becomming citizens or specialists -until they starve that is.

Maybe the proposed vampire civic could do something with all these extra citizens.

Maybe +2 defense per citizen- they are used as fodder.

you'd have to make Vampire Aristocracy disable cast system though, or the combination of unlimited specialists and gargantuan populations would be overpowered IMO.

Okay, some bannor UU's:
Enforcers: Warrior replacements that reduce maintenance in cities they are stationed in. +50% versus barbarians.
Cavalry of Law: Horseman replacement with the same abilities as enforcer. +1 movement on roads.

Malakim:
Desert Nomad:
+100% on desert. Chariot replacement. Double movement on desert.
Glowing Golem:
Golem type with bonuses against undead, demons, and shades. Requires sun altar but no metals.

Added Desc's for all of the civilizations.

Okay, some bannor UU's:
Enforcers: Warrior replacements that reduce maintenance in cities they are stationed in. +50% versus barbarians.
Cavalry of Law: Horseman replacement with the same abilities as enforcer. +1 movement on roads.

Malakim:
Desert Nomad:
+100% on desert. Chariot replacement. Double movement on desert.
Glowing Golem:
Golem type with bonuses against undead, demons, and shades. Requires sun altar but no metals.
I love the Bannor units, but I have a bit of trouble with the Malakim in general. Connecting a civ too deeply to desert makes them underpowered if they start somewhere more lush, and overpowered if you select arid maps, IMO...

How many UU's are you expecting for each civ? I'm hoping for armies of them, but probably you'd just want one of two.

Also, how many unique buildings?

Depends on the Civ. The elves and dwarves will have tons of UU's some will probably have just 2-3. Buildings will only be as needed, so most may not have any unique buildings and others will have a few.

I love the Bannor units, but I have a bit of trouble with the Malakim in general. Connecting a civ too deeply to desert makes them underpowered if they start somewhere more lush, and overpowered if you select arid maps, IMO...

Yeah, the desert benifit needs to be minor. Probably just +1 food from deserts and some minor benifits for some UU's on desert but nothing major. If its a major benifit then we need to cost for it and if the civ doesnt start in the desert then it has to pay the cost for no benifit.

I put a bunch of them, including Loki's in the Units thread. I felt that the units go much better there. ;)

I'll try to come up with more tomorrow, but not being in Europe, I'm up ridiculously late. 2-3 per civ should be pretty easy to come up with.

I agree that actual unit discussion goes better in the unit thread. we will probably use the civ lists here just for organization.

I chopped all the leader art down to 512x512 (the actual size they will use).

I went through the leaderhead settings today and came up with the following variables.

Alignment
[tab]Good- +4 for Good, -8 for evil
[tab]Neutral- -2 for Good, -2 for Evil
[tab]Evil- -4 for Good

Enemies (multi-valued)
[tab]-8 if a civilization is listed as an enemy

MEMORY_USE_DEATH
[tab]Amount settable per leader (some leaders have a high reaction to this, others dont care)
[tab]kicks if the civ has death mana
[tab]text: "You use Necromancy"

MEMORY_USE_ENTROPY
[tab]Amount settable per leader
[tab]kicks if the civ has entropy mana
[tab]text: "You summon demons"

MEMORY_HIGH_COMPASSION
[tab]Amount settable per leader
[tab]kicks if you have the top 2 compassion options
[tab]text: "You care for your people"

MEMORY_LOW_COMPASSION
[tab]Amount settable per leader (the Calabim give a negative for high compassion and a bonus for low compassion)
[tab]kicks if you have the bottom 2 compassion options
[tab]tab: "You don't care for your people"

I also added entries to allow each leader to prefer different improvement types for the mana node improvements. We can use it to set preferences on different mana types for different civs. With it Varn will be more likely to improve mana nodes to Spirit and Fire nodes, and the Calabim will be more likely to upgrade them to Entropy and Chaos nodes.

None of this stuff does anything yet, I just changed the schema to allow these new types (ie: more work to do).

What do you guys think, is this good? Should we add more attitude variables?

I think these are all good, and I propose a few more.

You use sun magic! And You use spirit magic! For the vampires, as I can see them hating anyone who would spread magic that they are weak against.

Your laws are stifling your people. Chaotic civs to Lawfull civs.

Your citizens are unruly and can't be trusted. Lawfull civ to Chaotic civ.

I think these are all good, and I propose a few more.

You use sun magic! And You use spirit magic! For the vampires, as I can see them hating anyone who would spread magic that they are weak against.

Your laws are stifling your people. Chaotic civs to Lawfull civs.

Your citizens are unruly and can't be trusted. Lawfull civ to Chaotic civ.

I was thinking that the chaotic and lawful civs would be more known for thier other attitudes. Breaking treaties, declaring war and peace more often, etc etc.

I forgot I also want to make the religions variable, so the Order gives a larger penalty against the Veil then it does against the Runes.

I added the civilization spreadsheet to the 2nd post.

Luichirp (or whatever the good dwarves are)
-They get a whole new class of unit. Construct.
Basically all of their units are of this type. Golems are of this type as well.
For example, they get maceman construct, which is the same as a maceman. However, it is construct type. Also, for each magic node type these dwarves control, this maceman gets a +5% strength bonus.

Luichirp (or whatever the good dwarves are)
-They get a whole new class of unit. Construct.
Basically all of their units are of this type. Golems are of this type as well.
For example, they get maceman construct, which is the same as a maceman. However, it is construct type. Also, for each magic node type these dwarves control, this maceman gets a +5% strength bonus.

I really like the idea for the boost for every owned mana node. Its hard to do +5% strength per mana (i would have to make a bunch of promotions for each percent).

But I wonder if we cant use this same idea in another way, to give the Amurite units +1 or +2 xp for every mana resource they control past the first?

Yeah i like the extra xp for each magic node. Also, they'd have to be of different types to give the bonus.

Yeah i like the extra xp for each magic node. Also, they'd have to be of different types to give the bonus.

Good catch, your right about the different types.

I think that the malakim should get +2 culture from each desert tile in a city's radius. They are encouraged to build near deserts even if they don't work them.

Or perhaps they should be allowed to build improvements on deserts?

I think the best way is to allow them to build improvements in desert tiles that are specific to them, and to allow them to work desert tiles.

That would go a long way towards encouraging the AI to build their cities in the desert as well, since the AI looks at resources when considering city building sites. It's not going to care about a culture bonus when selecting city sites.

Thinking further about it, I think the culture spreading faster is certain terrains for certain civilizations could be a good idea.

Malakim: culture spreads faster in desert tiles.
Elves: Culture spreads faster in forest tiles.
Dwarves: culture spreads faster in hill tiles.
Lanun: water tiles.
Hippus: grasslands.

This could be balanced by having each civ that has a favored terrain get a terrain type where their culture spreads a bit slower.

Both of these would have to be a modifier on how culture gets applied to each tile, instead of a city culture modifier so that you don't get negative culture cities, and the shape of the civ's borders get shaped by the terrain.

Normally, a city can only put out culture in a radius of 5 squares max from it, after that, even a legendary city puts out 0 culture.

What if, this radius was expanded for a favored terrain type, and contracted for a hated type?

You could let a Malakim city eventually pump culture 7 squares radius into desert terrain, and only 4 into other types. Then the civilization's boundaries would tend to follow the boundaries of their favored terrain.

You would have to distinguish already existing forests from created forests for the elves to keep them from easily culture bombing the whole world.

Thinking further about it, I think the culture spreading faster is certain terrains for certain civilizations could be a good idea.

Malakim: culture spreads faster in desert tiles.
Elves: Culture spreads faster in forest tiles.
Dwarves: culture spreads faster in hill tiles.
Lanun: water tiles.
Hippus: grasslands.

This could be balanced by having each civ that has a favored terrain get a terrain type where their culture spreads a bit slower.

Both of these would have to be a modifier on how culture gets applied to each tile, instead of a city culture modifier so that you don't get negative culture cities, and the shape of the civ's borders get shaped by the terrain.

Normally, a city can only put out culture in a radius of 5 squares max from it, after that, even a legendary city puts out 0 culture.

What if, this radius was expanded for a favored terrain type, and contracted for a hated type?

You could let a Malakim city eventually pump culture 7 squares radius into desert terrain, and only 4 into other types. Then the civilization's boundaries would tend to follow the boundaries of their favored terrain.

You would have to distinguish already existing forests from created forests for the elves to keep them from easily culture bombing the whole world.

I like this idea. especially for the malakim, because their whole idea is to spread the eye of god around.

We a need some drool factor for each of the civs. Something that will make players HAVE to try out each one. Let me see if I can lay out the ones I already think we have, and where we have some design gaps.

Drool factor could be an awesome unit, it could be an awesome mechanic. Our ideas to create all the UU's, civ specific buildings, and especially the palaces that grant a different mana type for each civ will make them all play differently. So differentiation isn't a problem, but we need a killer app for some fo the civs.

Already have:

[tab]Calabim- Vampires!
[tab]Amurites- Their strong casters will make them popular.
[tab]Clan of Embers- Being friendly with the barbarians will make them an interesting play.
[tab]Grigori- Agnostic style proves that playing without a religion is possible. Need some bonus's and such around this but I think we have the style we need.
[tab]Hippus- Our mercenaries.
[tab]Lanun- Pirates and naval superiority should set the style for this civ.
[tab]Ljosalfar- Elves and increased forest options should give us plenty of stuff for this civ.
[tab]Sheaim- these guys are to summoning what the amurites are to sorcery. That should give us plenty of options.


Need drool factor:

[tab]Balseraphs- I know this is going to be carnival theme, I just cant find the mechanic to bring it all together.
[tab]Bannor- Strong defence and low maintenance is a good design mechanic but dull. We need something fun here.
[tab]Doviello- The beastmen need a mechanic to make them fun. Something about a decreased replicance on cities and ability to create units in the field.
[tab]Elohim- These guys should be built for defensive growth players. I just dont know what the mechanic is to help with this.
[tab]Khazad- So the dwarves are half the height of normal units, but what beyond that?
[tab]Kuriotates- ?
[tab]Luchuirp- ?
[tab]Malakim- we have some style, but we need some drool factor for these guys.

Need drool factor:

1. Balseraphs- I know this is going to be carnival theme, I just cant find the mechanic to bring it all together.
What if they got uber carnivals.
a) can cage any race at all. yes, caged dragons
b) get extra bonuses from the pens with things like freak shows and colleseums.
c) Late in the game can "breed" caged animals and thus get the benefits everywhere. yes, breeding humans.

Bannor- Strong defence and low maintenance is a good design mechanic but dull. We need something fun here.
Righteous crusades perhaps? Automatic celebrations in every city as long as they are at war with a civ of another religion?

Doviello- The beastmen need a mechanic to make them fun. Something about a decreased replicance on cities and ability to create units in the field.
Maybe whenever they attack a city some of the population and units die? Also, what if whenever one of their demon type units wins a battle, it creates a beastman type unit like "demon spawn".

Elohim- These guys should be built for defensive growth players. I just dont know what the mechanic is to help with this.
Perhaps they can an automatic defense unit on each square of their city fat crosses. It's strength would be based on the size of the city, and its type a spirit. After one is killed it is rebuilt automatically the next time there are no enemies in that city's fat cross.

Khazad- So the dwarves are half the height of normal units, but what beyond that?
Maybe huge bonuses for workshops and mines? Tolkienesque dwarves that produce lots of metal and have cool tunnels? Like mines increase movement?

Kuriotates- ?
Can upgrade the terrain as production in their cities. Here's what i mean.
A kuriotate city has a desert square. To get rid of it they can build-recreate desert. The desert is removed and replaced with a random square. Deserts and mountains are never the replacements. The replacement starts with a forest on it and all improvments are destroyed. Any resource on the square remains.

Also, for a very high cost they can build new resources. For example, if they have a grassland in a city's fat cross that has no resource on it they can build any food resource in the city. When the resource is built all improvements on the square are destroyed, and the resource is placed on it. They can build food resources for grasslands, and plains, metal resources (not mithral) and gems for hills, and water resources for water squares. They can build inscence for deserts. iHowever, these resources give no production/food/gold benefits to their spaces, simply strategic benefits.

Luchuirp- ?
What if all of their units were created with the golem type, but got +1 xp for each different magic type they controlled? Once the unit got to level 4, it could buy the "I'm a real boy" promotion, giving it it's normal type and allowing it to level.

Malakim- we have some style, but we need some drool factor for these guys.
What if they get to spread whatever religion they have very far and wide? They would build missionaries twice as fast, and would get a gold bonus whenever they spread their religion. Also, they would get to see all cities of their religion as though they had the holy city. Finally, they could build acolytes and priests without temples and without resources.

Need drool factor:

1. Balseraphs- I know this is going to be carnival theme, I just cant find the mechanic to bring it all together.
What if they got uber carnivals.
a) can cage any race at all. yes, caged dragons
b) get extra bonuses from the pens with things like freak shows and colleseums.
c) Late in the game can "breed" caged animals and thus get the benefits everywhere. yes, breeding humans.
a-awesome idea
b-maybe allow them to build pens anywhere but enemy territory. They could build a pen on a site where they plan on building a future city, and have some culture ready and waiting for them when the settler arrives-not to mention deny it to other civs. It should cost a bit of money to do this though.
c-another great idea, if anyone should be able to do this, these are the guys.


Bannor- Strong defence and low maintenance is a good design mechanic but dull. We need something fun here.
Righteous crusades perhaps? Automatic celebrations in every city as long as they are at war with a civ of another religion?
Do celebrations do anything but spam your message box? ;) Crusades could be implemented as a one time free draft in each city that has the state religion with no penalties.

Doviello- The beastmen need a mechanic to make them fun. Something about a decreased replicance on cities and ability to create units in the field.
Maybe whenever they attack a city some of the population and units die? Also, what if whenever one of their demon type units wins a battle, it creates a beastman type unit like "demon spawn".

I think destroying population and units would be too powerful. Though I can see giving them a chance per attack to destroy population as being more balanced. Ironically, it would have the side-effect of making the city take less time in revolution. (though that never last more than a turn with well used disciples)
Perhaps, instead, give them a chance to have random units spawn in the fog of war and join their side- barbarians who join their cause instead of going wild.

Elohim- These guys should be built for defensive growth players. I just dont know what the mechanic is to help with this.
Perhaps they can an automatic defense unit on each square of their city fat crosses. It's strength would be based on the size of the city, and its type a spirit. After one is killed it is rebuilt automatically the next time there are no enemies in that city's fat cross.
Instead of this, how about giving enemy units a negative disease like promotion called Spiritual Defense that makes enemy units unable to heal in Elohim lands. It would give great defense, no offense, and not really lag the computer that much with dozens of units.


Khazad- So the dwarves are half the height of normal units, but what beyond that?
Maybe huge bonuses for workshops and mines? Tolkienesque dwarves that produce lots of metal and have cool tunnels? Like mines increase movement?
I'd love to see dwarves that can build tunnels. They could provide faster movement between cities and mines. Probably a bonus to defense in a tile with a tunnel in it as well. ( they could use holes to pop-up and harrass attackers.) the units using the tunnels don't have to be drawn underground, it just would be understood that they're usign the tunnels to get around faster.

Kuriotates- ?
Can upgrade the terrain as production in their cities. Here's what i mean.
A kuriotate city has a desert square. To get rid of it they can build-recreate desert. The desert is removed and replaced with a random square. Deserts and mountains are never the replacements. The replacement starts with a forest on it and all improvments are destroyed. Any resource on the square remains.
It's pretty easy to change land as it is with spells.
How about letting them control what type of great person they create? Everyone else just gets theirs randomly . Give them a pop-up that lets them choose what type of great person they want to create when it's time for one to spawn. That alone would make me want to play as these guys.

Also, for a very high cost they can build new resources. For example, if they have a grassland in a city's fat cross that has no resource on it they can build any food resource in the city. When the resource is built all improvements on the square are destroyed, and the resource is placed on it. They can build food resources for grasslands, and plains, metal resources (not mithral) and gems for hills, and water resources for water squares. They can build inscence for deserts. iHowever, these resources give no production/food/gold benefits to their spaces, simply strategic benefits.
Instead of creating new resources that don't quite do what the regular ones do, let them move resources around. Give them a special UU that can take a resources from one location, and move it to another. Make it take 10 turns to "pick up" a resource from a location within your cultural borders, and 20 turns to do it from outside, and 5 turns to "plant" the resource in it's new location. If the unit is killed, the resource is lost.

Luchuirp- ?
What if all of their units were created with the golem type, but got +1 xp for each different magic type they controlled? Once the unit got to level 4, it could buy the "I'm a real boy" promotion, giving it it's normal type and allowing it to level.
This would be pretty weak, given how fast units can level. +1 xp would be nothing. They were the greatest creators of artifacts in the previous age, perhaps let them have some of that greatness start to show through again with a free quality armor and weapons promotion for all units.

Malakim- we have some style, but we need some drool factor for these guys.
What if they get to spread whatever religion they have very far and wide? They would build missionaries twice as fast, and would get a gold bonus whenever they spread their religion. Also, they would get to see all cities of their religion as though they had the holy city. Finally, they could build acolytes and priests without temples and without resources.
Great idea as well.

b-maybe allow them to build pens anywhere but enemy territory. They could build a pen on a site where they plan on building a future city, and have some culture ready and waiting for them when the settler arrives-not to mention deny it to other civs. It should cost a bit of money to do this though.
.
I don't really like this idea. What if instead the carnivals they built in their outposts in hell allowed the city to expand its cultural influence (since generally its very hard for a city in hell to expand its borders)?


Do celebrations do anything but spam your message box? ;) Crusades could be implemented as a one time free draft in each city that has the state religion with no penalties.

Well celebrations technically make you pay no maintenance for that city. What if they got the no maintenance, and they could draft units without unhappiness while on a crusade. Also, no war weariness.

I think destroying population and units would be too powerful. Though I can see giving them a chance per attack to destroy population as being more balanced. Ironically, it would have the side-effect of making the city take less time in revolution. (though that never last more than a turn with well used disciples)
Perhaps, instead, give them a chance to have random units spawn in the fog of war and join their side- barbarians who join their cause instead of going wild.

No, these aren't the guys who are friendly with barbs, that's clan of embers. What i meant to say was that when they attack a city some of the population and buildings are destroyed. I thinkt hat this would be a fun way to hurt your enemies.

Instead of this, how about giving enemy units a negative disease like promotion called Spiritual Defense that makes enemy units unable to heal in Elohim lands. It would give great defense, no offense, and not really lag the computer that much with dozens of units.
I like this. Also, reduced chance of enemy spells working in elohim lands because their god is suppressing them.

I'd love to see dwarves that can build tunnels. They could provide faster movement between cities and mines. Probably a bonus to defense in a tile with a tunnel in it as well. ( they could use holes to pop-up and harrass attackers.) the units using the tunnels don't have to be drawn underground, it just would be understood that they're usign the tunnels to get around faster.

It's pretty easy to change land as it is with spells.
How about letting them control what type of great person they create? Everyone else just gets theirs randomly . Give them a pop-up that lets them choose what type of great person they want to create when it's time for one to spawn. That alone would make me want to play as these guys.

Instead of creating new resources that don't quite do what the regular ones do, let them move resources around. Give them a special UU that can take a resources from one location, and move it to another. Make it take 10 turns to "pick up" a resource from a location within your cultural borders, and 20 turns to do it from outside, and 5 turns to "plant" the resource in it's new location. If the unit is killed, the resource is lost.

i admit i like your ideas more. I especially like the resource moving.

This would be pretty weak, given how fast units can level. +1 xp would be nothing. They were the greatest creators of artifacts in the previous age, perhaps let them have some of that greatness start to show through again with a free quality armor and weapons promotion for all units.


Yeah, I geuss it would work better to have them get really powerful (and magical) equipment. Perhaps they would be the only civ that could actually build equipments as units in their cities? Others get small armor bonuses and have to capture them in battle.

I don't really like this idea. What if instead the carnivals they built in their outposts in hell allowed the city to expand its cultural influence (since generally its very hard for a city in hell to expand its borders)?

I'm equally fine with either.




Well celebrations technically make you pay no maintenance for that city. What if they got the no maintenance, and they could draft units without unhappiness while on a crusade. Also, no war weariness.


I think this could be pretty powerfull then, how about greatly reduced war weariness, or a much greater than normal chance of having a celebration, but not automatic. A smart AI would switch religions ASAP, but the AI is never smart.



No, these aren't the guys who are friendly with barbs, that's clan of embers. What i meant to say was that when they attack a city some of the population and buildings are destroyed. I thinkt hat this would be a fun way to hurt your enemies.

Some buildings are already destroyed when you conquer a city, so this wouldn't be too much different. It wouldn't be that much usefull for me at least, since I usually keep the city around and like it when a few buildings manage to survive.
I didn't mean for this civ to be friendly with barbs, but for friendly beastmen units to spawn in the Fog of war (read: the wild). They'd still have to survive the trek back through hostile barb lands to be usable to the player.




Yeah, I geuss it would work better to have them get really powerful (and magical) equipment. Perhaps they would be the only civ that could actually build equipments as units in their cities? Others get small armor bonuses and have to capture them in battle.
I think it's powerfull enough as written. Everyone else has to build pollution causing armorers and weaponsmiths to get the same effect.

Okay so while the Bannor are on a crusade they get free drafting, decreased war weariness, and increased chance of celebrations.

That works.

Should they have increased (above what other civs get) war weariness for attacking a civ of the same religion?

That works.

Should they have increased (above what other civs get) war weariness for attacking a civ of the same religion?

nah. what if they get extra unhappiness for drafting in those circumstanses? Also, when fighting against another religion they get 1 draft per turn regardless of civics.

How about: they can't draft at all when fighting the same religion, but can draft one per turn regardless of civics when fighting a different religion?

What if they are war with two people then?

Depends on their religion. If they are the same, then it could be doubly bad (extra unhappiness), but it shouldn't be doubly good if they are both a different religion (effects mentioned here for fighting against one). If they are one the same and one different, then they should be affected as if they were any other civ.

I mean, what do you do about the drafting ability - you can't have it on vs one civ and off vs another or have it part on and part off.

I wasn't very clear I guess :p

It depends:

At war with a civ of a different religion- 1 draft per turn regardless of civic, reduced war weariness, extra chance of celebrations.

At war with a civ of the same religion-can't draft at all regardless of civics.

At war with 2 or more civs, one of the same religion, one different-they act just like any other civ.

At war with 2 or more civs, all of different religions- same effect as if they were at war with only one civ. ( Same amount of war weariness as if they were at war with only one)

Some buildings are already destroyed when you conquer a city, so this wouldn't be too much different. It wouldn't be that much usefull for me at least, since I usually keep the city around and like it when a few buildings manage to survive.
I didn't mean for this civ to be friendly with barbs, but for friendly beastmen units to spawn in the Fog of war (read: the wild). They'd still have to survive the trek back through hostile barb lands to be usable to the player.
What if instead they got a unit when they pillaged an enemy improvement? It wouldn't be an especially powerful unit (same as a draft in the capital), but the many new units would make stopping an invasion from these guys very difficult.

I think it's powerfull enough as written. Everyone else has to build pollution causing armorers and weaponsmiths to get the same effect.
Okay. But that doesn't seem exciting enough. I mean we now that they'll get cool equipment, but what is so great about that? Will it be magical?

What if instead they got a unit when they pillaged an enemy improvement? It wouldn't be an especially powerful unit (same as a draft in the capital), but the many new units would make stopping an invasion from these guys very difficult.


This would have pretty much the same effect ( extra units) but have a totally different mechanic. I think either works, though having beasmen spawn in the wild instead of from pillaging to make them amkes a bit more logical sense to me.




Okay. But that doesn't seem exciting enough. I mean we now that they'll get cool equipment, but what is so great about that? Will it be magical?

Sure, it can be magical, though that just sounds like a semantics change unless we can get glowing swords or something.

Not neccessarily. Magical items could allow you to fly, or walk on water. Things like that.

Okay, It seems that we have all of the mechanics for the civs, except for the Kuriotates. What is special about them? Maybe we should get ridof htem and add a diff civ.

Updated the picture of Hyborem (http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Leaders/Hyborem.jpg) to one that I thought better suited him.

Okay, It seems that we have all of the mechanics for the civs, except for the Kuriotates. What is special about them? Maybe we should get ridof htem and add a diff civ.

Yeah, I agree that they are definitly the most undefined at this point. Lets come up with civ ideas (that don't have a ton of art requirements, aka: human) and if we can match them to the Kuriotates we will use it, or if we are better off to switch them we can do that.

I was going to have the Kuriotates get an additional benifit from improvements, particuraly cottages/villages/towns/hamlets. Making them very effiicent in well tended lands and weak to pillaging. I was also thinking about giving them centaurs as their mounted units to give them a little character. I assume centaurs wouldnt be to hard to make.

I assume centaurs wouldnt be to hard to make.

I think I mentioned this to Rabbit (or maybe Roland) a month or two ago and he said it would be tough, but I think the unit guys have learned tons since then.

Problem with Centaurs is that they need their own animations. What we have done so far was reusing old Animations. But we'll see wat the future brings. :)

Apparently you added the merc mod. Great. I think that the Hippus should get double gold from hiring themselves out, and once merc's that they hire have reached a high level (6?) then they become normal Hippus units.

Yeah, I agree that they are definitly the most undefined at this point. Lets come up with civ ideas (that don't have a ton of art requirements, aka: human) and if we can match them to the Kuriotates we will use it, or if we are better off to switch them we can do that.

I was going to have the Kuriotates get an additional benifit from improvements, particuraly cottages/villages/towns/hamlets. Making them very effiicent in well tended lands and weak to pillaging. I was also thinking about giving them centaurs as their mounted units to give them a little character. I assume centaurs wouldnt be to hard to make.

Perhaps after 30 turns of being worked all of their improvements can grow an extra step where it give +1 of its main thing. However if pillaged it is totally destroyed (except the thing above towns is pillaged down to village.)

Perhaps after 30 turns of being worked all of their improvements can grow an extra step where it give +1 of its main thing. However if pillaged it is totally destroyed (except the thing above towns is pillaged down to village.)

That could be cool. I was also thinking of giving them civics that only they could use. Which would allow us to make them diverse at a mechanic level, but we still need the "drool factor" for this civ.

The gold dragon is planned to be the hero for the Kuriotates, and the Black for the sheaim. I think we can theme out the "dragon" aspects of the culture to make the civs more cool without giving them dragon armies. But how?

The gold dragon is planned to be the hero for the Kuriotates, and the Black for the sheaim. I think we can theme out the "dragon" aspects of the culture to make the civs more cool without giving them dragon armies. But how?

You could have unqiue units called (Gold/Black) Dragon Cultists or Dragon Disciples, which are basically elite warriors of a dragon "cult", without being draconic themselves. Perhaps make them national units, allow them to be carried by the Dragon hero, give them some basic fire magic in addition to their combat capabilities, perhaps unique spells granted by their draconic master, which would only work as long as it was alive. Allow them to call the dragon to their current position via. a special ability, which should carry some kind of penalty to prevent abuse. Give them bonuses when near the dragon, that sort of thing.
They should be rendered near-useless if the dragon dies.

While thinking about the Dragon Cultists I thought of something new. But it would probably be going way too far, just something I started thinking about and looked cool in my mind:
We have 2 civilizations with very powerful dragons(I assume they will be). As I imagine beings as powerful as dragons can inspire to fear, respect and even possible worship, how about adding two new full-fledged religions to the game right there? The Cult of the Black Dragon, and the Cult of the Gold Dragon(or other names). These religions can ONLY be founded by the Kuriotates/Sheaim, but can spread to other civs in the normal way. This would give the two civs a pretty major advantage, as they'd be guaranteed an oppertunity to found a religion, but the religions themselves could be made weaker than the standard ones to compensate for this.

The religions would have temples, priests and such, just like the others, but they would also work quite differently in some respects. For example, if you choose to employ either dragon in war, it will have great bonuses attacking cities which worship it. By being present in a city with the religion, the dragon might provide an effect similar to that of the Globe Theatre of vanilla, or some other bonus.
Finally, the ultimate catch of these religions: If the dragon dies, the religion dies with it, along with all holy buildings and priests. This would make it a dangerous religion to rely on, especially for players not controlling the dragon in question.

This might all be crazy, I just fell in love with the idea of dragon-worshipping civs.

While thinking about the Dragon Cultists I thought of something new. But it would probably be going way too far, just something I started thinking about and looked cool in my mind:
We have 2 civilizations with very powerful dragons(I assume they will be). As I imagine beings as powerful as dragons can inspire to fear, respect and even possible worship, how about adding two new full-fledged religions to the game right there? The Cult of the Black Dragon, and the Cult of the Gold Dragon(or other names). These religions can ONLY be founded by the Kuriotates/Sheaim, but can spread to other civs in the normal way. This would give the two civs a pretty major advantage, as they'd be guaranteed an oppertunity to found a religion, but the religions themselves could be made weaker than the standard ones to compensate for this.

The religions would have temples, priests and such, just like the others, but they would also work quite differently in some respects. For example, if you choose to employ either dragon in war, it will have great bonuses attacking cities which worship it. By being present in a city with the religion, the dragon might provide an effect similar to that of the Globe Theatre of vanilla, or some other bonus.
Finally, the ultimate catch of these religions: If the dragon dies, the religion dies with it, along with all holy buildings and priests. This would make it a dangerous religion to rely on, especially for players not controlling the dragon in question.

This might all be crazy, I just fell in love with the idea of dragon-worshipping civs.

I think its an amazing idea. Im going to have to noodle on it and we can toss it around to firm out the concept. I few issues we would have to address.

First a few points about dragons:

1. We are planning to have 3, the Sheaim black dragon, the Kuriotate gold dragon and a barbarian red dragon that is immobile (basically the guard for the dragons lair, maybe tied to some quests later on).

2. Dragons will be unique and extremly powerful. Avatar level units and the best civ heroes in the game.

3. Dragons will have the fear ability (cannot be attacked by units under a certain strength).

4. Dragons will have a breath weapon attack that will do signifcant damage without putting them in combat.

5. Each dragon will have its own special ability (as of yet undertimed).

6. Dragons should be multi-domain (essentially air units without being air units in game terms).

7. We need some more cool dragon features besides these. Maybe a relationship boost with all civs as long as you keep the dragon?

Now on to the issues we would have to address with this concept:

1. Because of their power the dragons would be late game units, meaning the religions wount get started until they were to late to do much.

2. Should it be one religion or two?

3. What should it take to build them? Should the dragon be "projects" requiring the civ to complete essentially 3 wonders before it can build the dragon?

At the very least Im going to check in a "Cult of the Dragon" concept into the quests for "Shadow". We can definitly keep working on the idea here, but even if we decide not to do anything with it in light I defeinitly want this in as a series of quests later on.

1. Because of their power the dragons would be late game units, meaning the religions wount get started until they were to late to do much.

2. Should it be one religion or two?

3. What should it take to build them? Should the dragon be "projects" requiring the civ to complete essentially 3 wonders before it can build the dragon?

1+3. Perhaps we could add a "growth cycle" for the dragons. When you can first build them, towards the mid-game perhaps, they'll be wyrmlings who has not reached their full potential in power yet(but still powerful enough that you can found the religion upon building them). The projects mentioned could be used as ways of making the dragon grow, until they eventually become extremely powerful in the late game.

2. I think it should be two different religions for the Sheaim and the Kuriotates. And their followers should be sworn enemies, just like the relationship between the Veil and the Order.

Wow I go to school for a day and look at what you guys come up with.

1+3. Perhaps we could add a "growth cycle" for the dragons. When you can first build them, towards the mid-game perhaps, they'll be wyrmlings who has not reached their full potential in power yet(but still powerful enough that you can found the religion upon building them). The projects mentioned could be used as ways of making the dragon grow, until they eventually become extremely powerful in the late game.

2. I think it should be two different religions for the Sheaim and the Kuriotates. And their followers should be sworn enemies, just like the relationship between the Veil and the Order.


1+3. What if the dragon grow as its religion grew? It could start in the midgame with the other religions. The dragon would be very very weak, but each time it spread to a new city the dragon would get +1 strength. Each time a civ converted to it it would get +1 strength (one time bonus per civ). When the hly city's shrine was built the dragon would get +1 strength. Each of these bonuses would be permanent, so by the end game a kuriotates player who had expanded their religion would have the bonus of an uber dragon. I relly like this idea. I'll even start posting on the religions thread some stuff about them.

2. Yeap. Neither religion changes civ alignment, but they get the -4 hit against civs of the opposing religion.

I think its an amazing idea. Im going to have to noodle on it and we can toss it around to firm out the concept. I few issues we would have to address.

First a few points about dragons:

1. We are planning to have 3, the Sheaim black dragon, the Kuriotate gold dragon and a barbarian red dragon that is immobile (basically the guard for the dragons lair, maybe tied to some quests later on).

2. Dragons will be unique and extremly powerful. Avatar level units and the best civ heroes in the game.

3. Dragons will have the fear ability (cannot be attacked by units under a certain strength).

4. Dragons will have a breath weapon attack that will do signifcant damage without putting them in combat.

5. Each dragon will have its own special ability (as of yet undertimed).

6. Dragons should be multi-domain (essentially air units without being air units in game terms).

7. We need some more cool dragon features besides these. Maybe a relationship boost with all civs as long as you keep the dragon?

1. I think that the red dragon might not be immobile. What if you could sneak by and get the treasure, but then he'd go on a rampage?

2. Well of course. They're dragons.

3. What about sumoned creature?

4. That seems kinda lame, but maybe if we can get a really nice anim for it.

5. Even the red guy?

6. Yeah.

7. hmmm. This will be at the top of my list...
What if they were their own type? Also could use 50 gold to build a unique improvement called a hoard in hills/mountains. Not sure what they would do yet though...

Hmm thought some more about the calabim. I'd like the bloodpet to be produced by food, too (didn't i propose that in the past, im not sure) and how about reducing the produced commerce on calabim villages and towns, but giving additional food instead. Furthermore i would want the calabim to be always able to rush production with popoulation (whip) as the calabim see their population only as food and means to live in prosperty...

What if instead of the bloodpet being produced for food they could sac population for it. Then once they get a manshion they can sac pop for anything.

Hmm yeap that absolutely to my liking... Pop is power.. at least for the calabim

It occurs to me that there might be a curious but effective combo involved in adapting the leaves as a state religion with the Calabim. The large cities this allow would be of great benefit.
I don't think it's a bad thing, it's nice that the game can allow for alternative and unconventional strategies that are still feasible.

Just a thought as i wrote about alignment. How about randomizing Perpentachs leaderhead info (and alignment) on gamestart, on reload and randomly during the game? That would make him really uncalculatable and give interesting turns to a game when he suddenly changes his behaiviour by 180 degrees.

We could even go so far as to randomize his traits (i think they are saved in the Player class) to a certain degree (so that he always has either creative or philosophical but seldom both at the same time).

Hehe, that would make him even better!

Just a thought as i wrote about alignment. How about randomizing Perpentachs leaderhead info (and alignment) on gamestart, on reload and randomly during the game? That would make him really uncalculatable and give interesting turns to a game when he suddenly changes his behaiviour by 180 degrees.

We could even go so far as to randomize his traits (i think they are saved in the Player class) to a certain degree (so that he always has either creative or philosophical but seldom both at the same time).

I think we can accomplish a similiar result by making him more prone to everything in the leaderhead info, quick to war, quick to peace, like a pitbull with attention defecit.

Swapping his alignment will cause confusion for players when they dont match his religion or their Law Braingers are able to attack his troops before a save but not afterwards, etc.

Randomizing his personality will make him sometimes play like the elohim or the bannor, and I think I would rather have him predictably chaotic than truely unpredictable (and sometimes very stable).

Moving his traits around may be an interesting trait to play with, lets think about that one.

Rather than swapping alignment we could just add an attitude adjustment tied to a random variable for him. So on each diplomacy interaction you get a random -4 to 4 adjustment for no reason (well the reason would be something like "You entertain me" or "you fail to entertain me").

Make sure then that you get the same random modifier throughout at least the turn, otherwise players will/may just keep trying until they get the best modifier.

Make sure then that you get the same random modifier throughout at least the turn, otherwise players will/may just keep trying until they get the best modifier.

True, good point.

How about teh following randomize it every turn, but when you visit him a second time in the turn you always get a negative -4 indicator..
Like "You again? Your face bores me"

Could it be made so that the modifier changed on turn intervals which are also random? So you'd never know how long Perpentach's "good mood" would last.

Could it be made so that the modifier changed on turn intervals which are also random? So you'd never know how long Perpentach's "good mood" would last.

Yeah and if he's winning a war then it lasts longer?

Sounds like an excellent idea.

I thought of another problem with the "totally random" option is that if he is constantly 180ing he would probably be fairly easy to beat, because he'd be following no coherent plan.

Would it be possible if one were playing Perpentach that all of the AI's would have the random +- diplomatic mod?
So to you (the player) it seems like you are sane and the rest of the world is insane?

I guess this might be the best place to post this. Was just wondering if the Elohim are going to get an UUs.

I guess this might be the best place to post this. Was just wondering if the Elohim are going to get an UUs.

Checking out the Units thread to see all of the planned units. The Elohim are speced for a UU to replace their Monk and High Priest. I don't have any detail on them outside of that (they are supposed to have boosted versions of both units).

Outside of that they aren't scheduled for anything except maybe art different versions of their units (pikemen with the elohim symbol on their armor, etc).

Can the Doveillo build Libraries? I didn't notice in testing if they could or not, but I completed Writing and can construct a Great Library, but not a regular one. Odd.

Can the Doveillo build Libraries? I didn't notice in testing if they could or not, but I completed Writing and can construct a Great Library, but not a regular one. Odd.

Nope. They cant build barracks either. They can build the units those buildings produce without the buildings. Part of making the Doviello less city focused.

Nope. They cant build barracks either. They can build the units those buildings produce without the buildings. Part of making the Doviello less city focused.

Good. I like it that way. These guys are fun to play because you can send out settlers and workers without worrying about barbs. :)

Good. I like it that way. These guys are fun to play because you can send out settlers and workers without worrying about barbs. :)


Cool, thats the intent. Their units are overcosted to compensate.

I think they might need to lose more than 10% research too, maybe.

Any idea what would happen if I built the Catacomb Librarus? I didn't bother, but I was able to. Maybe that should be disallowed as well.

I think they might need to lose more than 10% research too, maybe.

Any idea what would happen if I built the Catacomb Librarus? I didn't bother, but I was able to. Maybe that should be disallowed as well.

You'd get a library in all your cities, giving you the research bonus but it wouldnt make you able to produce any additional units (since you can already make the adept).

Kael - did you tweak any flag settings? I'm playing Doveillo again after the patch and their flag seems darker. I can see the paw, but just barely. The others look clear.

Kael - did you tweak any flag settings? I'm playing Doveillo again after the patch and their flag seems darker. I can see the paw, but just barely. The others look clear.

Yeah, I turned off the bwhiteflag thing cause on some computers i guess they come out white. I probably need to revisit a few flags that I was using the alpha channel on.

Good, it wasn't my old eyes going bad. :)

Is there a simple fix for those of us who this affected?

Is there a simple fix for those of us who this affected?

I'll switch them back. Crazy flags :crazyeye:

Can you simply have 2 files? A small patch or separate file for the one who isn't in the main file?

Can you simply have 2 files? A small patch or separate file for the one who isn't in the main file?

Yeah, thats a good idea, Ill do that.

I actually don't like the Calabim because they seem rather one dimensional. There's no point in doing anything but making a bee-line for Vampires with them. And they still seem too unbalanced (too easy to get vampires early). In other civs I have to balance a wider number of units and techs.

I very much agree with him. However, I don't want the vampire ability to be given out to other units. What if instead, the basic vampires were available with any of multiple techs. Like instead of just one tech giving vampires, 3 of them would, so the calabim could go for any of the three techs and still get their vampires early on?

I suppose the vampire civ could have 3 seperate unique minor vampires who could only be built once spread out through the earlier parts of the tech tree each who would have the vampire traits but maybe with slightly different flavours. And then have the special hero unit they currently have later on.

Eg: One could be the normal warrior vampire with education, one a more magic orientated one with knowelege of the ether and the third a less tame one somewhere on the scout branch of the tree...

This would make the players value them far more as there wasn't an unlimited supply of super warriors at their disposal unless they are clever at infecting powerful warriors with vamparism.

Continuing on, everyone knows that large groups of vampires dont get allong - less virgins to go around and all that. I don't see them sending large armies of their brethrin out to war rather the odd general.

This was the reasoning on having the limited supply.

Agree ! Agree ! XD

Very well said, they should be some few units (less than 5) and could spread vampirism to other powerful units, wouls be much more "real" =P

I see this thread is a couple of months old, but how about giants, lesser vampires (perhaps ghouls, or ghasts), and minor demons as barbarian clans?
The giants would fit in perfect, with the disappearance of barbarians happening anyway.
Perhaps maybe even dificulty exclusive??

I see this thread is a couple of months old, but how about giants, lesser vampires (perhaps ghouls, or ghasts), and minor demons as barbarian clans?
The giants would fit in perfect, with the disappearance of barbarians happening anyway.
Perhaps maybe even dificulty exclusive??

"Shadow" is where we are planning to dive into the monsters of the world. I do want the kind of variety you are talking about, it will just take us a little time to get there (these wilderness monsters will work differently than typical barbarian units).

Partly inspired by the fact that the Khazad seems to have a very low position in the "favourite civ" poll, and partly inspired by this post by Darthcycle:

In the same line of thought, why not change the way that dwarves harvest their environment for food?

In game terms, do not allow dwarves races to build farms but give them another way to harvest food. Some ideas:
- mines also produces 1 food
- allow a new mine type that produces 2 food
- generic buildings that generate 1-2 food, like underground mushroom farms under the city.
- a building that generates food, but requires mountain in the city radius in order to build it. Beetle colony harvested in mountain caves.

This would greatly change the way dwarves races are played. Hills and moutains would become valuable terrain for dwarves races, like forest and ancient forest to elves.

I started to think about ways to make the Khazad civilization more unique and more appealing to players. Right now they are scheduled to get a lot of dwarven units, and while I agree that they most certainly need to look different, they also need to play different.
Since the Luchuirp covers the Craftmanship/Enchantment aspect of dwarves, I think the Khazad, in tune with their slightly darker alignment, could emphasize the "subterranean" aspect of a dwarven civilization.
A number of additions that could be made to achive this:

- Of Darthcycle's suggestions, I believe 1 would be the most simple to implement, but would still have a quite drastic effect on the gameplay. The 1 food could be explained by the ability of dwarven miners to scavenge the tunnels for delicious fungi. Might give them a food penalty for farms to balance it out.

- The Khazad should, as the only ones, get the ability to mine Peaks. Mining a Peak might produce 1 more hammer than a hill. The mine would take twice as long to build. The random chance of spawning a resource when working the mine should be either doubled or tripled, perhaps with especially good chances of finding mithril. This would of course mean that Dwarven workers should get the ability to traverse peaks.

- The Khazad could get access to a new city improvement, a Mineshaft. Only buildable in cities on hills, the shaft would have the same effects as stuff like Elder Council, Market and Obelisk, being cheap to build and providing +2 hammers. Smaller Khazad cities could get a quite good advantage in production through this.

- The Khazad could get access to a new city improvement, called Tunnel Networks(available with Engineering). Tunnel Networks are somewhat akin to Oblivion Gates in function, except that travel does not occur instantaneously, but takes an amount of turn proportional to the distance to the target city. Transcontinental travel is impossible. Target city must also have tunnel networks. During the travel, units are essentially "gone" from the map. If the destination city is taken before the units arrive, they are lost forever(It would seem likely that someone conquering a Khazad city would either collapse the tunnel system, or ambush whoever emerged from it). Tunnel networks might also provide a small defensive bonus to the city.

- The Khazad can build cottages on/in hills?

Some nice ideas there Corlindale (and Darthcycle). I recall in MOO2 there was a trait called Subterranean I loved. With it your pop per planet could double. Maybe incorporate this extra space somehow into the Khazad? Better defense?

I have no problem with the food in mines. In either the Civ3 Mystara or MoM mods (Mystara I think) there was a mushroom resource only visible by certain civs. Maybe a mushroom resource on hills/mountains/peaks only for the dwarves kind of like pearls for searfaring?

A unique food resource in hills/mountains would be good, I think.

I don't know about that population thing, seeing as Civ IV does not put the same artificial constraints on city size as Civ III or SMAC. A defense bonus might be good, kind of like Yang in SMAC got a free Perimeter Defence in each base because the bases were underground. But seeing as the cities will already be in hills in many cases, defense might become a bit too high, especially if Tunnel Networks also provide a boost, making conquering a Khazad civilization a nightmare. I agree that they should be good defenders, but not so good as to ruin the fun for all others.

What if we actually added a trait-Subterranean.
Not just the dwarves, i could imagine the dark elves also using it, perhaps others. Maybe even all civ's start with the subterranean trait, but most lose it with a certain tech to simulate them leaving their caves and exploring the world.
It would give +100% chance of discovering metals in hills, and revealed mushrooms. It would also allow their units to travel on peaks. However, most civ's would lose this trait with an early tech (not sure yet). And some, the doviello for example, would not even start with it,

I don't think everyone should start with it. I assume the game to start at the point when most people leave their caves anyway, and it would make the dwarves less unique.

It could very well be implemented as a trait, and the Svartalfar might also be subterranean once they start getting their flavour. Though the Hidden trait might achive the same kind of flavour for them, as I don't really see the Svartalfar as typical miners. I don't really know whether they are supposed to live underground(as the Drow of D&D) or whether they should live in dark forests, or perhaps even jungles.

I think it's a great idea. That and the mushrooms. :)

I think that defeating an enemy with tunnels should be hard, but we'd need some balance. Underground dwellers sound more fun already!

Kael and his friends,

Here are some ideas. At that time, i don't really understand the usefullness of the Cult of the Dragon. Maybe in a next phase, it would be clear (for me, of course).
So, my two ideas are. Either,
a) Create a Civ of Lizardemen which are the true and real lovers of the Dragon. A kind of Brotherhood of the reptiles.... You should use the Lizardmen you created for the Orc Civ and probably add others.
b) Add some UU to the civ that own the Cult of the Dragon main temple. Of course, in my mind, these UU would be Lizardemen.

What do you think about that?

The Frog.

Here are some ideas. At that time, i don't really understand the usefullness of the Cult of the Dragon. Maybe in a next phase, it would be clear (for me, of course).
So, my two ideas are. Either,
a) Create a Civ of Lizardemen which are the true and real lovers of the Dragon. A kind of Brotherhood of the reptiles.... You should use the Lizardmen you created for the Orc Civ and probably add others.
b) Add some UU to the civ that own the Cult of the Dragon main temple. Of course, in my mind, these UU would be Lizardemen.

What do you think about that?

I imagine the usefulness of the Cult will not become completely evident before the dragons are actually in, so I'm not surprised its hard to see its relevance at the moment.
We already have the two civs that are the "real lovers of the dragon", the Kuriotates and the Sheaim. I don't think a civ of lizardmen will be needed.
I agree that there should be some UU's attached to the Cult of the Dragon apart from the dragons themselves, and have also posted various suggestions about them somewhere. I don't really know whether it makes sense for lizardmen in particular to be attached to the dragon, partly because they are allied with the Clan. And I'm not certain lizardmen and dragons are directly related racially, it would certainly have to be a very distant kinship, and I imagine a dragon would look on its weak and unintelligent kin with scorn.

I agree with both of you. The lizardmen as a civ would be cool, but I don't know if needed. I don't know if the Dragons would look down on them so much as simply looking at them as servants or their "children".

As an idea, what if after the founding of the Cult, an AI only civ of Lizards popped up in some free place on the map and began the game from there? The story could be that they are emerging from whatever hole they live in and now seek the Dragons...