Agriculture- Bonus:corn, Bonus:rice, Bonus:wheat, Building:granary, Building:herbalist, Civic:agriculture
[tab]Animal Husbandry- Bonus:horse, Bonus:cow, Bonus: pig, Bonus:sheep, Building:smokehouse
[tab][tab]Horseback Riding- Unit:horseman, Building:stable
[tab][tab][tab]-[tab]Stirrups- Unit:horse archer [with archery]
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Warhorses- Unit:war chariot, Building:hippodrome [with trade]
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Domesticate Camels [requires animal handling]- Unit:camel archer, Building:large animal stables
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Domesticate Elephants- Unit:war elephant
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Armored Cavalry [requires lames]- Unit:knight
[tab]Calendar- plantation, Bonus:banana, Bonus:dye, Bonus:silk, Bonus:sugar, Wonder:tomb of sucellus
[tab]Festivals- Building:carnival, Building:market[tab]
[tab][tab]-[tab]Drama [requires education]- Wonder:sylivens perfect lyre, Building:theatre, can set culture
[tab]Fermentation- vineyard, Bonus:wine, Building:brewery
Ancient Chants- Building: obelisk, Civic:religion
[tab]Education- Civic:city states, Civic:apprenticeship
[tab][tab]Code of Laws- Building:courthouse, Civic:aristocracy, open borders
[tab][tab][tab]Currency- Building:moneychanger, Civic:consumption
[tab][tab][tab][tab]Taxation [requires mathematics]- Building:tax office, Civic:caste system
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Guilds [requires poisons]- Unit:shadow, Building:thieves guild, Civic:guilds
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Mercantilism- Building:tavern, Civic:mercantilism
[tab][tab][tab]Monarchy- Wonder:bone palace, Building:dungeon, Civic:hereditary rule
[tab][tab][tab][tab]Constitution [requires way of the wise]- Civic:republic
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Liberalism- Civic:liberty, Civic:free religion
[tab][tab][tab][tab]Feudalism [requires trade]- Civic:serfdom, permanent alliance
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Espionage [requires way of the wicked]- Unit:saboteur, Building:hidden court
[tab][tab]Warfare [requires bronze working]- Wonder:form of the titan, Civic:military state, Civic:conquest
[tab][tab][tab]Military Strategy [requires iron working]- trojan horse, Wonder:national epic, Civic:military discipline
[tab][tab]Writing- Building:library, Wonder:great library, free tech to the first civ to discover
[tab][tab][tab]Mathematics- Wonder:bazaar of mammon, Building:gambling house
[tab][tab][tab][tab]Alchemy- Unit:typhoid mary, Building:alchemy lab
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Blasting Powder [requires metal casting]- Bonus:gunpowder, cannon, arquebus
[tab][tab][tab][tab]Engineering [requires construction]- Unit:crossbowman, Wonder:guild of endeavors
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Machinery- Unit:heavy crossbowman [with bowyers], Building:machinists shop
[tab]Mysticism- Building:reagents, Wonder:Elder council, Civic:god king
[tab][tab]Knowledge of the Ether- Unit:adept, Building:Mages Guild, Building:catacomb libralus
[tab][tab][tab]Alteration- build body, dimensional, enchantment, metamagic and mind nodes
[tab][tab][tab][tab]Sorcery [requires writing]- Mage
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Arcane Lore [requires summoning]- Wonder:crown of akharien, Civic:scholarship
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Golem Mastery [requires construction]- Unit:copper golem, Building:golem workshop
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Strength of Will- archmage
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Omniscience [requires commune with nature]
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Armageddon [requires divine right]- Wonder:apocalypse, Wonder:bane divine, Wonder:blight, Wonder:blood of the phoenix, Wonder:glory everlasting, Wonder:wrath unleashed
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Future Tech
[tab][tab][tab]Divination- build creation, law, life, spirit and sun nodes, Wonder: oracle
[tab][tab][tab]Elementalism- build air, earth, fire, nature and water nodes, Wonder:eternal flame
[tab][tab][tab][tab]Summoning [requires writing]- Unit:Conjurer, Building:ring of warding
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Soul Debt- Wonder:soul forge
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Ethereal Call- summoner
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Pass Through the Ether- Building: obsidian gate, Wonder:nexus
[tab][tab][tab]Necromancy- build chaos, death, entropy and shadow nodes
[tab][tab]Philosophy- Building:incense, Building: pagan temple, Wonder: prophecy of ragnarok, Civic: pacifism
[tab][tab][tab]Awaken the Ancients- founds cult of the dragon
[tab][tab][tab]Priesthood [requires education]- Unit: priest, Wonder:altar of the luonnotar, Wonder: purge the unfaithful, Civic:religious discipline
[tab][tab][tab][tab]Fanaticism [requires monarchy]- Building:castle, Civic:nationhood, Civic:crusade
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Malevolent Designs [requires way of the wicked]- eidolon
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Rage [requires iron working]- berserkers, Building:bear totem
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Righteousness [requires way of the wise]- paladin
[tab][tab][tab][tab]Religious Law [requires code of laws]- Wonder:twisted spire, Civic: organized religion
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Theology- Unit:high priest, Wonder:hall of kings, Wonder:temple of temporence, Civic:theology
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Divine Right- Unit:inquisitor
[tab][tab][tab]Way of the Wicked
[tab][tab][tab][tab]Infernal Pact [requires knowledge of the ether]- founds the ashen veil, Unit:savant, Building:temple of the veil, Wonder:infernal grimoire
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Corruption of Spirit- Civic:sacrifice the weak
[tab][tab][tab]Way of the Wise- Civic: protect the meek
[tab][tab][tab][tab]Meditation- Unit:monk, Building:monastery
[tab][tab][tab][tab]Orders from Heaven [requires code of laws]- founds the order, Building:temple of the order
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Unquestioning Obedience- Building:basilica, Wonder:winter palace, Civic:social order
Crafting
[tab]Masonry- Bonus:marble, Bonus:stone, Wonder: pyramid, Building:walls
[tab][tab]Construction- Building:siege workshop
[tab][tab][tab]Sanitation- Wonder:aquae Sucellus, Building:aqueduct, Building: public baths
[tab][tab][tab][tab]Medicine [with education]- Building:infirmary, Civic: public healers
[tab]Mining- Building:gems, Building:gold
[tab][tab]Bronze Working- axeman, Bonus:copper, Building:barracks
[tab][tab][tab]Smelting- Building:forge
[tab][tab][tab][tab]Iron Working- Unit:maceman, Bonus:iron
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Metal Casting- Unit: pikeman, Building:drydock
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Lames- Unit:shield wall, Building:armorer
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Mithril Working- Bonus:mithril, Building:weaponsmith
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Divine Essence [requires theology]- Unit:immortal
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Mithril Weapons- Unit:spartiatoi
[tab][tab]Way of the Earthmother [requires mysticism]- founds runes of Kilmorph, Building:temple of Kilmorph
[tab][tab][tab]Arete- Wonder:mines of galdur, Civic:arete
Exploration- roads
[tab]Cartography- Wonder: pact of the nilhorn
[tab][tab]Trade- Building:inn, Unit:chariot, Civic:foreign trade
[tab][tab][tab]Deception [requires way of the wicked]
[tab][tab][tab]Honor [requires way of the wise]- Wonder:heroic epic, defensive pact
[tab]Fishing- Bonus:clam, Bonus:crab, Bonus:fish, Building:harbor
[tab][tab]Sailing- Building:whale, Wonder:great lighthouse, Building:lighthouse
[tab][tab][tab]Optics
[tab][tab][tab][tab]Astronomy- queen of the line [with engineering], arcane barge [with sorcery], Wonder:tower of eyes
[tab][tab]Message from the Deep [requires mysticism]- founds octopus overlords, Building:temple of the overlords
[tab][tab][tab]Mind Stapling- Building:asylum, Building: overseers residence, Building:theatre of dreams, Wonder:tower of complaceny, Civic:slavery
[tab]Hunting- Unit:hunter, Building:hunting lodge, Building:deer, Building:fur, Building:ivory
[tab][tab]Archery- Unit:archer, Building:archery range
[tab][tab][tab]-[tab]-[tab]Bowyers [requires construction]- Building:bowyer, Unit:longbowman
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Precision [requires military strategy]- Unit:marksman
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Celerity- Unit:flurry
[tab][tab]Tracking
[tab][tab][tab]Animal Handling [requires animal husbandry]- Unit:ranger
[tab][tab][tab][tab]Feral Bond- Unit:baron duin halfmorn, Building:grove
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Animal Mastery- Unit:beastmaster
[tab][tab][tab][tab][tab]Commune with Nature [requires elementalism]- Unit:druid, Wonder:genesis
[tab][tab][tab]Poisons [requires way of the wicked]
[tab][tab]Way of the Forests [requires mysticism]- founds fellowship of leaves, Building:temple of leaves
[tab][tab][tab]Hidden Paths- Wonder:yggdrasil, Civic:guardian of nature

http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/014techs.jpg

Reserved for ideas under consideration.

After dealing with the tech tree for the Lunar mod I wouldn't mind trying to put this one together eventually, unless it needs heavy Python. ;) I can do the drudgery of XML and don't mind spending tons of time of it since I feel it's vital to a great mod.

Here's my latest. Most units, buildings, and wonders are placed.

Updated again. Fixed some teir discrepancies in the civics section, and some repeated wonders and units.

Hey i noticed that monotheism is no longer there. IMO you should replace polytheism with monotheism, because this is FfH, where i'm killing you becuase my god is better than your god.
Seriously, i think monotheism is better in this world than polytheism. Polytheism is generally more tolerant about other religions.

Both of them have been removed, as they are both silly and obvious when confronted with a world where the gods do walk. The religion path has been totally re-worked.

I've started to work on the XML for this, but I'm slower than crap in a glacier. I hate that I can't just magically modify the technologies folder and run the game and see if my grid works. :P

I've started to work on the XML for this, but I'm slower than crap in a glacier. I hate that I can't just magically modify the technologies folder and run the game and see if my grid works. :P

I wouldnt worry abotu the xml. Just work on the design, we wont be ready for a formal tech tree for a while yet. The tech tree is always the last part. Besides I will probably create an excel spreadsheet that will write all the xml for me like I do with the other files (I prefer to work out of an excel spreadsheet and dont work out of xml very much anymore).

Ok, that's cool then. It's mostly done for now then, until we start nailing some more stuff down.

I'm mostly curious to see whether or not you want to include all the religions. They'd have a big impact on the design of the tree if they are.

Ok, that's cool then. It's mostly done for now then, until we start nailing some more stuff down.

I'm mostly curious to see whether or not you want to include all the religions. They'd have a big impact on the design of the tree if they are.

No, we still have more detail to add to the religions we have. If any new religions come it it would just be 2-3.

I noticed in the civilizations thread that you gave the elves and dwarves elven studies and dwarven studies as starting techs. I'm going to completely re-do the tech tree later, but those right now are pretty high up the tree for starters. Do you want them moved down to beginning level techs? Maybe even freebie hidden techs such as the seafaring trait tech?

I noticed in the civilizations thread that you gave the elves and dwarves elven studies and dwarven studies as starting techs. I'm going to completely re-do the tech tree later, but those right now are pretty high up the tree for starters. Do you want them moved down to beginning level techs? Maybe even freebie hidden techs such as the seafaring trait tech?

No. They just need new names. As "Elven Studies" it didnt make since for anyone to beat the elves to it. But given a better name it doesn't bother me if they don't start with it.

Ok. I have plans for making it easier for certain civs to get to their religion founding tech easier,and to change the names.

I've been playing around with some other mods, to see how they've done their own tech trees. One things interesting that comes up is in the Ancient mediterranean mod. There it is possible to start a religion extremely early. (like before you have a second city early).... Not sure how good an idea this is, but it's kinda interesting to meet your neighbor for the first time and already have a -3 reaction because they have a different religion.

Added a requirement for techs that allow building of the various mana resource harvesting improvements. They dont have to be techs specific to this purpose but they need to be considered of when and where they will be gained.

I really like the idea of an OO tech. What if there was one for each religion?
Order-whenever a city (not capital) has 1 or less maintenance, some research is added to the tech.
Runes-whenever a new metal is discovered in their borders?
Fellowship-A forest is planted? A forest spreads?
AV-A demon kills a living enemy.

Hmm, yeah, I like the idea of a tech that you can't research normally. It would have to be something powerfull- armageddonish, to make it worth the trouble, but it would give you another goal in game and be cool to boot. Maybe this could even replace the armageddon counter. Combine the different religon counter with a magic specific counter and you'd unlock the various armageddon wonders.

Runes would have to be something else, because new metals are discovered only a few times per game. Maybe everytime they make a golem.....I dunno. To continue my idea above- make 50 golems as a civ with earth magic and unlock the mithril golem.

Perhaps you could change the line in the OP that says that a preliminary tech tree hasn't been put together yet? ;)

Hmm, yeah, I like the idea of a tech that you can't research normally. It would have to be something powerfull- armageddonish, to make it worth the trouble, but it would give you another goal in game and be cool to boot. Maybe this could even replace the armageddon counter. Combine the different religon counter with a magic specific counter and you'd unlock the various armageddon wonders.

Runes would have to be something else, because new metals are discovered only a few times per game. Maybe everytime they make a golem.....I dunno. To continue my idea above- make 50 golems as a civ with earth magic and unlock the mithril golem.

Perhaps you could change the line in the OP that says that a preliminary tech tree hasn't been put together yet? ;)

Will do. :D

Hmm, yeah, I like the idea of a tech that you can't research normally. It would have to be something powerfull- armageddonish, to make it worth the trouble, but it would give you another goal in game and be cool to boot. Maybe this could even replace the armageddon counter. Combine the different religon counter with a magic specific counter and you'd unlock the various armageddon wonders.

Runes would have to be something else, because new metals are discovered only a few times per game. Maybe everytime they make a golem.....I dunno. To continue my idea above- make 50 golems as a civ with earth magic and unlock the mithril golem.


Yeah, I was worried about that for runes. What if it were everytime a treasure trove was discovered? ie: mines find a resource, find a dragon's treasure, get gold from a goody hut, etc.

Need 3 techs (good, neutral, evil) that will allow harvesting of mana nodes (maybe even broken down more granuarly than this):
1. Good tech allows improvements for: Law, Spirit, Creation, Sun, Enchantment and Life.
2. Neutral tech allows improvements for: Force, Metamagic, Nature, Earth, Water and Air.
3. Evil tech allows improvements for: Body, Mind, Entropy, Chaos, Dimensional, Shadow, Fire and Death.

What if you started with the one for your civ's alignment. Then research would go to the other ones if a variety of ways:
a) if you were worshipping a religion you could research the tech for its alignment.
b) getting a holy city for a religion gives you that religion's alignment's tech.
c) once you had researched all 5 of the religion founding techs you could research any of the alignment node techs.

All of those are pretty rare, they certainly won't rack up the kind of counts that the others would get, and they also have the dis-advantage of being entirely out of your control.

Maybe....some combination of number of times that you build a golem plus number of mines that you dig with your dwarves? The mines wouldn't hve to neccesarily find anything (which is out of your control, and rare to boot), but you can cover every hill inside your borders that you want with a mine- it doesn't even have to be within any city's fat cross.

What if you started with the one for your civ's alignment. Then research would go to the other ones if a variety of ways:
a) if you were worshipping a religion you could research the tech for its alignment.
b) getting a holy city for a religion gives you that religion's alignment's tech.
c) once you had researched all 5 of the religion founding techs you could research any of the alignment node techs.

The way I'll probably implement this is to make a new branch about where philosophy is now (it and it's free tech come FAR too early to be balanced, and I have plans to move to a late spot), and make each of the techs lead to a different religion. Depending upon how far Kael wants to go with it, I could have further techs leading off of those developing the lines further.

The way it is now, each of the religions requires one mystical branch tech and one other tech. This would expand the mystical branch nicely, I think, which is a bit narrow at the bottom for my liking.

All of those are pretty rare, they certainly won't rack up the kind of counts that the others would get, and they also have the dis-advantage of being entirely out of your control.

Maybe....some combination of number of times that you build a golem plus number of mines that you dig with your dwarves? The mines wouldn't hve to neccesarily find anything (which is out of your control, and rare to boot), but you can cover every hill inside your borders that you want with a mine- it doesn't even have to be within any city's fat cross.

I like that dwarven digging idea very much. Now that i think about it, mines dug by dwarves should have a very high chance of finding a resource.

Added a tech spreadsheet to the first post. To use it you have to have macros enabled. If they are make whatever changes you want to the spreadsheet and then run the macro and it will write out a CIV4TechInfos.xml file for you with all the spreadhseet.

Im trying to make some spreadsheets that allow you to do all the XML stuff because:

1. Its easier to manage everything.
2. I want to release the spreadsheets with the mod to make it easier for scenerio makers and such to mod our mod (if that makes sense :) )

Ok. I'm re-installing Office so I can look at it. My CD drive is on its last legs, so it's taking alot longer than I thought it would ( i.e I thought I'd be long done by now). I have it on the other computer already, but I don't always have access to that.

Nice, am I correct that they need to be in a certain order for the tech tree to be drawn correctly in game?

Also, any idea on what new religions, if any, you plan on adding. One new good and one new evil would be nice, but i have the mystical side of the techs for them penned in.

Tenative re-do of the area where philosphy was. (I'm moving up the tree to keep the free tech from being early cheese, which I admit to taking advantage of every chance I get :D )



Dark Whispers
(Leads to CoS and any other evil religious techs)
|
Songs from the Ether Commands from above
(Leads to OO and FL) (Order and good)
| /
| /
| /
Simple Runes, etc Ancient Chants------------
\ |
--------------- |
\ |
Mysticism


These would probably go away as pointless if we don't add any new religions though, unless we enough new stuff to justify them.

Anyways, the effect of this is to move the Order up to teir 8, and the Veil up to Teir 7 as per Loki's earlier suggestions. Leaves, Runes, and OO remain at 6. Also, you it makes you go for either a good, neutral, or evil religion as part of your tech strategy. I there a way to weight the different techs differently depending upon AI alignment? So that a good civ is more likely to go the good route than the evil one? Maybe add a "flavor- good", "flavor-evil", "flavor-neutral"

Nice, am I correct that they need to be in a certain order for the tech tree to be drawn correctly in game?

Also, any idea on what new religions, if any, you plan on adding. One new good and one new evil would be nice, but i have the mystical side of the techs for them penned in.

Tenative re-do of the area where philosphy was. (I'm moving up the tree to keep the free tech from being early cheese, which I admit to taking advantage of every chance I get :D )



Dark Whispers
(Leads to CoS and any other evil religious techs)
|
Songs from the Ether Commands from above
(Leads to OO and FL) (Order and good)
| /
| /
| /
Simple Runes, etc Ancient Chants------------
\ |
--------------- |
\ |
Mysticism


These would probably go away as pointless if we don't add any new religions though, unless we enough new stuff to justify them.

If im understanding your question correctly no, the order of the techs in the xml file don't matter (they were stuffed in as I made them).

I have no idea on the religions. I would make the best tech tree possible with what we have, we will modify as need be. I would hate to modify the design to incorporate something that is so far off.

By the way Im adding a request for repeatable techs based (or loosely based) on the spell spheres. Spirit should give +1 happiness each time it is researched, Life should give +1 health, Water should give +1 Domain_sea move.

Hmm..so 15 new (well not really, I can stick them in anywhere that makes sense, but odds are that I'll need at least a few) repeatable techs ( and the five that would give access now also being repeatable)

How would you do that? Give it an ORprerequisite of itself?

Hmm..so 15 new (well not really, I can stick them in anywhere that makes sense, but odds are that I'll need at least a few) repeatable techs ( and the five that would give access now also being repeatable)

How would you do that? Give it an ORprerequisite of itself?

There is a bRepeat flag on techs, if it is set then after you research it it is marked as unresearched (so don't put anything behind it :) )

I hope you are planning on having a repeatable end game tech for each sphere.

ie: earth could give one free metal discovered, death ressurects a unit of yours, nature plants a new forest, etc

Ahh, ok, so in most cases, it will have to be a new tech, to keep that line of the tree from dying off. Also, it will have to be given a low AI weight to keep the AI from researching it over and over and over.

In the Song of the Moon mod, there are two buildings that you can build to change the aspect of a city, biodomes and military worlshop or something similar. Building one destroys the other ( you have to specialize your cities) and makes the other your top recommended building to make. Looking around, after a while when I had 6 cities, most of the AI only had one, 2 had managed to squeeze out a second city. I'm not THAT good. It seems that the AIs were building biodomes (which give +health and growth), then switching to the military production center. But now the Biodomes are recommended, so i bet they were building that in a never ending loop. I even got caught in it a few times in my cities before I figured it out. ( I have a no-text anywhere bug with that mod and 1.57, so it took me a bit)

The moral is that never ending loops can kill the AIs, so we'll have to be carefull. Even stuff with really low weights gets recommended when you've researched beyond it, so these techs will all have to be late game. (though it would be funny to see an AI that had researched +1 sea navigation 100 times)

I hope you are planning on having a repeatable end game tech for each sphere.

ie: earth could give one free metal discovered, death ressurects a unit of yours, nature plants a new forest, etc

Yeah, by my above post, you can see that they will have to be late or end game or the AI could bog down on them. They're all gonna go up in the "too high up there for me to bother counting up the exact teir and extenting the document size anymore" level over 15.

Basically, they'll replace future tech. But will have mana and tech prerequisites. Probably sit in the same spot in the tech tree unless something should obviously go elsewhere, and also require a certain number of nodes of the correct type.

Yeah, we'd have to watch out for loops. IMO none of these future techs should be researchable until the rest of the tech tree is done.

I wouldn't go that far. Future tech loops, and is researchable before the tree is done, but it is far enough up there that even if the computer does somehow get into a loop, it has researched enough of the tree not to cripple itself. Also, it has a low flavor weight and high cost . As for the cost itself, the repeatable spell tech will be less than future tech, because the effects will be more specialized, but still not cheap.

I wouldn't go that far. Future tech loops, and is researchable before the tree is done, but it is far enough up there that even if the computer does somehow get into a loop, it has researched enough of the tree not to cripple itself. Also, it has a low flavor weight and high cost . As for the cost itself, the repeatable spell tech will be less than future tech, because the effects will be more specialized, but still not cheap.

I think we are far enough in to start playing with the techs Lunargent. Take a look at the editor in the version i release tonight, or if you dont want to use the editor just let me know what your thinking in whatever method is easiest for you.

Ok. I think first thing is for me to go through all the changes that have been made since I last looked at it, and update my visual chart first. I'll post the updated version here, and let you glance at it and make any suggestions. Then I'll work on changing it in the editor. I'm a visually oriented person, plus, it's easier to see if anything is screwy if it's laid out in chart form. It's too easy to have redundant requirements and techs that take far longer to get to than you intend if its only in a mostly text file.

For the release please check which ERA "Golem Mastery" belongs to. (Im not at home atm) It should be last era but i think its second era and that is the reason those copper golems come and burn your cities if you start in the second era....

I'm falling way behind on this. I've been so busy with work that I've not had time to even play any games in weeks. I think it would be best if someone else coded the chart, otherwise it won't get done. The version that's up now is old, but it's not too far off from what I want the final to be.

The only thing that I think needs changing is the level of the various religions. After thinking about it for a while, I think that having some religions start way before other religions in a religion dominated mod is extremly unbalancing. What almost always ends up happening is that the first one or two religions to be founded end up dominating, and that's that. Changing them all to be the same teir (and then same speed) would make games with many more different religions interacting even more likely. They can be changed to be even pretty easily, ( I had to fudge some things to get the Order up to teir 8 )I'll try to work on an update tomorrow if I get time.

Just a my thoughts abaout this. (I have your ne tech tree not in mind)

It seems not be to unbalanicg as it was in FfH I. I had severaltimes that the Veil has been founded before any of the other religions (and not by me but by the AI) so a small difference seems to be good. As the religions in 1 were near similar techs it helped to differentiate the Religion.

Just a my thoughts abaout this. (I have your ne tech tree not in mind)

It seems not be to unbalanicg as it was in FfH I. I had severaltimes that the Veil has been founded before any of the other religions (and not by me but by the AI) so a small difference seems to be good. As the religions in 1 were near similar techs it helped to differentiate the Religion.

Ive also added an AI block in the latest version so that ai's wont discover techs that would change their alignment. So if they are good they wont discover message from the deep or corruption of spriit, etc etc.

Along with your change to the convert chance it should help keep religions from fanning out as quickly. Or at least of being adopted as state religions as quickly.

Along with your change to the convert chance it should help keep religions from fanning out as quickly. Or at least of being adopted as state religions as quickly.

Speaking of this i will submit my code as soon as the Version for the crowds is out. Have you read the comment of Lunargent above mine? I just replied to his one so i do not want it to be overread.

Speaking of this i will submit my code as soon as the Version for the crowds is out. Have you read the comment of Lunargent above mine? I just replied to his one so i do not want it to be overread.

Yeah, I agree with both of you and rather than move the religions closer to each other in the tech tree (i like having later game religions) Im hoping that tending the ai toward waiting for the good and evil religions will work better.

It also helps move us toward the holy grail of making every randomly generated game different. In some games with a lot of evil leaders the veil will be a popular state religion, others will tend toward good or neutral religions. Players will have to consider the opponents they have discovered when they decide to religion ruch towards one their neighbors will be likely to adopt (or they could go for a opposed one, it will just be a more difficult road). Or players could force their hand and cherry pick their opponents on the custom game screen toward those that will favor the religion they prefer to play with.

Ive also added an AI block in the latest version so that ai's wont discover techs that would change their alignment. So if they are good they wont discover message from the deep or corruption of spriit, etc etc.

In that case I think the ability to build workshops should be removed from Dwarven Studies. I don't think such a general ability should be tied to the tech of a certain religion, and especially not if evil AI civs will consequently be completely blocked from making workshops.

Will neutral AI civs only be able to discover Elven Studies then, or do they have access to all religions?(I assume it's the latter)

In that case I think the ability to build workshops should be removed from Dwarven Studies. I don't think such a general ability should be tied to the tech of a certain religion, and especially not if evil AI civs will consequently be completely blocked from making workshops.

Good point, moved to Education (other posibilities Mathematics, Trade or Construction).

Will neutral AI civs only be able to discover Elven Studies then, or do they have access to all religions?(I assume it's the latter)

Anyone can found the fellowship.

Anyone can found the fellowship.

Can neutral civs also found anything?

I think workshops would fit better with Construction. I don't really consider the Education tech to have much connection with menial labour.

I think we will reorganize the tech tree anyway. So no need to bother with fine tuning it now. But yes construction seem good, but it already gives a lot of things. especially improvementwise.

Does anyone look at Lunargents tree as he has not time to rework it (and we might want to get it into 1.12 or 1.13)

Can neutral civs also found anything?

No, the AI won't found the veil or the order if it is neutral.

I think workshops would fit better with Construction. I don't really consider the Education tech to have much connection with menial labour.

K, Ill switch it as you and Chalid suggest.

Just as an observation. You need to be careful about which religion techs are prerequisites for other techs.

Otherwise the AI may get into a situation where it can't research a given part of the tech tree beacuse it will found a non-compatible religion. This could be quite an issue if for example all the AI's are good, or all evil and the human players intentionally avoid founding a religion to stifle AI's options etc.

You could even just make it so that the AI may found any religion, but won't adopt a non-aligned religion as its state religion. (No idea how hard that is to change)

Other solutions are things like the currently proposed Healing Runes Or Destructive Runes leading to Binding Runes. (Ensuring that multiple alignments can get to Binding Runes)

Just as an observation. You need to be careful about which religion techs are prerequisites for other techs.

Otherwise the AI may get into a situation where it can't research a given part of the tech tree beacuse it will found a non-compatible religion. This could be quite an issue if for example all the AI's are good, or all evil and the human players intentionally avoid founding a religion to stifle AI's options etc.

You could even just make it so that the AI may found any religion, but won't adopt a non-aligned religion as its state religion. (No idea how hard that is to change)

Other solutions are things like the currently proposed Healing Runes Or Destructive Runes leading to Binding Runes. (Ensuring that multiple alignments can get to Binding Runes)

As long as we make it simply more likely to adopt a religion near its basic alignment, i don't see a problem here.

Just as an observation. You need to be careful about which religion techs are prerequisites for other techs.

Otherwise the AI may get into a situation where it can't research a given part of the tech tree beacuse it will found a non-compatible religion. This could be quite an issue if for example all the AI's are good, or all evil and the human players intentionally avoid founding a religion to stifle AI's options etc.

You could even just make it so that the AI may found any religion, but won't adopt a non-aligned religion as its state religion. (No idea how hard that is to change)

Other solutions are things like the currently proposed Healing Runes Or Destructive Runes leading to Binding Runes. (Ensuring that multiple alignments can get to Binding Runes)

Your right, and either solution works. But we block at the tech because the civ shouldnt waste the time getting a tech if it cant use the religion anyway. And we make sure not to have a religious founding tech required by non-religious techs.

I have only one complaint i can think of with the techs so far.

It seems that the starting techs for many of the civs are the same.

Can you vary it a little more?

I see several civs with ancient chants and agriculture as starting techs.

Its nothing major, but i think it would be better that way.

I see that you've considered removing the bonus tech ability from Philosophy or moving it somewhere else - I've got to say, come on. :) I don't really see it as being *that* unbalancing - yes, it may be somewhat unbalancing, but so is Orthus spawning right next to player X and wiping out half of his empire without touching any of the others. The mild unbalancing factor is just what makes it fun - how many of you can honestly say that you don't love grabbing Philosophy first and using it to develop some high-cost tech?

Don't sacrifice the fun factor for an exaggarated balance. Keep Philosophy where it is, please. :)

It's more than it being unbalanced- though it is. I just feel that it is lame to have a tech available that early that gives a free tech. It becomes so strong of a strategy that it's crazy not to go that way. I think moving it up will actually free up things. The original Philosophy was deep in the tree, and was moved whole cloth.

In any case, I really need to get on this ( I keep saying that to myself :p). Working nights is crimping my style, since I'm working when I'm feeling most like coding. And I hate sitting at the computer in the afternoon, especially in the summer, I prefer to go outside. I've not played a game since late April.

The way I'll probably implement this is to make a new branch about where philosophy is now (it and it's free tech come FAR too early to be balanced, and I have plans to move to a late spot), and make each of the techs lead to a different religion. Depending upon how far Kael wants to go with it, I could have further techs leading off of those developing the lines further.

The way it is now, each of the religions requires one mystical branch tech and one other tech. This would expand the mystical branch nicely, I think, which is a bit narrow at the bottom for my liking.

Philosophy has spent its time shrinking according to modern European and American thought yet if you look at the conversations had during the most popular times recalled about the Philos Sophia you can find some interesting things about describing in modern language with the current flow of ideas like this:
1Paradigms
2Mysticism 2Ontology,
3Philosophy 3Religion, 3Philology............Now with this progression people may get excited and want to argue until you offer definition Because Ontology even though it is often found under the heading philosophy and like this erroneos conclusion, it actually belongs under what its name implies the Study of the Ultimate thus an ontological conversation is an ultimate coversation and an ontological arguement being the only thing you are not supposed to do in Ontology is an arguement that can't be answered by any method tradition, intuition or reason and usually is an arguement about God or gods or whatever...

In a similiar manner Paradigms are often found under the heading of ontology ,which is as much science as it is philosophy, yet once again being the primary and not the secondary source for paradigms are simply the sets of ideas, thoughts, values and associations that make up experience and all of those others are further down within that distiction....

So to be ontological about it. A distiction is dirrect ostention.An abstraction is deferred ostention and thus the abstraction is a number of distinctions grouped together. These sorts of breakdowns must happen first or mysticism, philosophy, religion,philology and even reason, emotion,intuition and every category after are impossible.....however the difficulty lies in the need to be a little self-referential in a non-linear thinking manner the root,tree and fruit analogy work well for this.......How quickly it gets slippery....

Likewise philology is where we find this happening again guess what some fruits of it are if you don't already know........History........Mathematics.......ect.. ......
Boy am I sorry I had to do this again.....But I feel stronglly that those of us that study these things in depth could at least pay attention enough to notice that the name of the Base game is Civilization and vanilla's alright but I like Rocky Road and Butterscotch or Strawberry too.........later if you need reinteration let me know.........."doh!,I'm confused now" is not my goal.

I've been having trouble getting Elven studies before anyone else in the Deity setting with the Ljosalfar, and if I don't get it first then it never comes to me (I end up with cult of the dragon in all my cities or if I'm lucky I'll get Kilmorph or Octo religions).

Would it be possible to maybe give a Disciple of the Leaf to the elven civs when they discover Elven studies if they aren't the first to get it? It's a big let down to be working on Elven studies since the beginning and then get beat out at the last second and never getting ancient forests, just don't feel very elfy.

Seems like you have to conquer a leaves city. :D

But if you are playing Deity, how is the difficulty up there compared to a Vanilla Deity game with similar settings (Map usw..)?

It's easier than Vanilla because of heroes, I can't describe just how many times Gilden stopped invasions single handedly (I even renamed a city Gildenstand for Gilden's Stand because he survived an army that would have wiped out my entire small nation), and then advancing on their lands pillaging, forcing them into peace.

Also the Charm spell saved me plenty as well, in Vanilla Deity games most wars wipe me out and I'm forced to just give in to demands and hope for the best if I want to survive.

Though in general I have to be much more defense oriented because of barbarians (on Raging usually, and in Vanilla civ barbarians are usually just a nuisance not a threat).

Using heroes to take over cities just doesn't work though, all my attempts at getting a Leaves city have failed miserably and there's no way of out teching civs on Deity (especially with 18 civs O_o).

Pillage the countries of your enemies to slow their teching and make alliances, eh? Also, lots and lots of fireballs. ;)

They get Fellowship of Leaves before I can even pretend to sustain a 2 turn assault before dying :O

It might get better when the new tech tree is in. I fear you have to have patience until then and play someone else.

I just lowered difficulty a bit and got a high trade starter city and play a Classical time period game (Elven studies is available right off so only need to get one tech before any AI players) and it works out without it being too easy a game.

Could you block great persons from discovering the religious founding techs?? (At least all but the religious one)... I find it quite annoying that mid and late game sienetific leaders can only get techs that are useless to you and that the ai won't trade anyway...

A new tech that allows the construction of being made waterways. With Djinnie and other water magic and earth magic available getting around machine difficulties would be even easier in some cases. Should have a lot of requirements including Writing, Mathmatics, Construction,Sanitation and whatever else you think it should........benifits......Defense ie...moats...dikes...Lakes and other terrain like rivers ect courses could be altered (by small extent..

..maybe drain lakes that are unwanted or build those that one wants it most certainly could uncover some resources and ruin others if used in this manner....Might allow Dam building or might require another tech..............if later techs developed destroying dams could really ruin an area during war......

In real life moats where only effective for certain things and gunpowder changed most of that.....but it wouldn't effect amphibious creatures and they would really benefit from a tech like this....If you already have it I've missed it.....just came to me let me know if i should edit this post.

Could you block great persons from discovering the religious founding techs?? (At least all but the religious one)... I find it quite annoying that mid and late game sienetific leaders can only get techs that are useless to you and that the ai won't trade anyway...

That should be possible. Im redoing the whole tech tree right now so it will all be different in the next version.

I just skimmed this over.. but I noticed in the first post that you have grouped mana node building under different alignments... for some reason that rubs me the wrong way. I don't disagree that they can or should be split into different techs(and it looks like you might be in the process of eliminating some superfluous techs that are just paths and not otherwise useful, so room to grow)... Anyway.. maybe I have gotten too into Eberron and fantasy books with moralist challenges as thier themes... Maybe placing Body and Chaos into an "Evil" category works in your setting... but with the way religions can alter a base civs alignment I think that magic should certainly not be pigeon-holed into alignment categories. It just seems like your world(or what it has evolved into during the Civ4 process) is a little more fluid.

*shrugs*

Maybe this has already been talked about or altered, but since it is in the first post.. anyway..

Cheers!

1. Good tech allows improvements for: Law, Spirit, Creation, Sun, Enchantment and Life.
2. Neutral tech allows improvements for: Force, Metamagic, Nature, Earth, Water and Air.
3. Evil tech allows improvements for: Body, Mind, Entropy, Chaos, Dimensional, Shadow, Fire and Death.


I disagree with body, mind and fire being evil and enchantment being good, i think all these 4 should be neutral (at least enchantment, body and fire)

Its an oder designt there. The new techtree will come with 0.13.

I know, but I think you guys should´t put the mana nodes I said on the aligments they will be put, because in my head it just doesn´t make sense =P

I know, but I think you guys should´t put the mana nodes I said on the aligments they will be put, because in my head it just doesn´t make sense =P

They're based on the alignments of the civilizations of those spheres.

Oh, makes more sense now I know that.

In my opinion Omnicense is pretty lame the way it is now. A very expensive tech that just sits there on the way to armageddon that grants something you never need (by the time the world map is revealed you know it anyway.)

Some suggestions:

- Make a wonder that grants "true" omniscense. So the world map is revealed all the time. You could even give this ability to the first civ that researches the tech.

- The discovery of Omniscense triggers a golden age.

- All archmages and summoners get the visibility I and II promotion.

In my opinion Omnicense is pretty lame the way it is now. A very expensive tech that just sits there on the way to armageddon that grants something you never need (by the time the world map is revealed you know it anyway.)

Some suggestions:

- Make a wonder that grants "true" omniscense. So the world map is revealed all the time. You could even give this ability to the first civ that researches the tech.

- The discovery of Omniscense triggers a golden age.

- All archmages and summoners get the visibility I and II promotion.

I'm hoping it'll be more useful when hell is released... I mean, I hope it'll be extremely hard to explore making the tech woth while.

I think the techs that allow node building might need to be made more useful, or at least more uniform. As things stand, I believe two of them lead nowhere while the other two are quite vital in the tech tree. I've never been a fan of dead end techs, especially when they only allow an improvement that might not be likely to be used. It's a minor point, but I just thought I'd voice it.

Those techs now allow the minor towers for the victory conditoon as well. As those towers have effects by themselv the tech are no longer as "useless"

Those techs now allow the minor towers for the victory conditoon as well. As those towers have effects by themselv the tech are no longer as "useless"

When are you going to reveal the details of this thing?

Trying to figure it out based on bits and pieces you guys let out is pretty annoying. :P

We could, but it will change a dozen times between now and when 0.14 releases anyway so it wouldn't make much sense.

It's not annoying, it's fun as heck!

Anyway, just thought I'd point out that the tech which gives workshops and extra hammer (Construction) comes earlier and is significantly cheaper than the tech that allows them (Smelting). Is it safe to assume that you don't want things to be that way?

I know it's probably been said before, but I suggest moving the free tech you currently get with Education to Knowledge of the Ether.

I tried it out and I found that it reduces the amount of rushing you have to do in order to get it (no more having to start with Ancient Chants), and it makes the free tech bonus more worthwhile since you can choose an early religion (or it's bonus civic), a magic type, or something you might have missed out on like bronze working.

Just a suggestion : make Sorcery and Summonning require each not one particular "node building tech", effectively making the two other ones technological dead-ends but either one of two "node building techs". (I'm not sure I made mayself clear there... and I'm not even sure of the actual tech names, I'm at work and have no Civ4 copy on this computer)

For example:

Summonning currently requires Elementalism, meaning that I HAVE to research Elementalism even if I only want to use it to raise an undead army. I suggest making Summonning require either Elementalism OR Necromancy, and Sorcery require Alteration OR Divination : that would make the actual decision path a little more interesting, without introducing shortcuts into the tree.

I know it's probably been said before, but I suggest moving the free tech you currently get with Education to Knowledge of the Ether.

I tried it out and I found that it reduces the amount of rushing you have to do in order to get it (no more having to start with Ancient Chants), and it makes the free tech bonus more worthwhile since you can choose an early religion (or it's bonus civic), a magic type, or something you might have missed out on like bronze working.

We moved it to writing, which is working out better.

Just a suggestion : make Sorcery and Summonning require each not one particular "node building tech", effectively making the two other ones technological dead-ends but either one of two "node building techs". (I'm not sure I made mayself clear there... and I'm not even sure of the actual tech names, I'm at work and have no Civ4 copy on this computer)

For example:

Summonning currently requires Elementalism, meaning that I HAVE to research Elementalism even if I only want to use it to raise an undead army. I suggest making Summonning require either Elementalism OR Necromancy, and Sorcery require Alteration OR Divination : that would make the actual decision path a little more interesting, without introducing shortcuts into the tree.

Thats a very interesting idea. Let me mention it to the team.

Just a suggestion : make Sorcery and Summonning require each not one particular "node building tech", effectively making the two other ones technological dead-ends but either one of two "node building techs". (I'm not sure I made mayself clear there... and I'm not even sure of the actual tech names, I'm at work and have no Civ4 copy on this computer)

For example:

Summonning currently requires Elementalism, meaning that I HAVE to research Elementalism even if I only want to use it to raise an undead army. I suggest making Summonning require either Elementalism OR Necromancy, and Sorcery require Alteration OR Divination : that would make the actual decision path a little more interesting, without introducing shortcuts into the tree.

The team agreed, this will be checked into 0.14.

Idea for Animal Mastery:Building: Kennel(to produce War Dog Pack) I suppose it could require wolves in cages too but not necessarily and it would be nice if lions and tigers and bears were it too........but War Dogs fit for sure I am surprised vanilla civ didn't incorporrate it for the Mongols in the very least not that they were the only ones to use them the Welch loved them too........and many other civilizations....however just a tech idea for your net.

Idea for Animal Mastery:Building: Kennel(to produce War Dog Pack) I suppose it could require wolves in cages too but not necessarily and it would be nice if lions and tigers and bears were it too........but War Dogs fit for sure I am surprised vanilla civ didn't incorporrate it for the Mongols in the very least not that they were the only ones to use them the Welch loved them too........and many other civilizations....however just a tech idea for your net.

Yeah i always thought that wolfs should be able to be domesticated and produce some sort of wonder or building that can add happiness like kennel

Idea for Animal Mastery:Building: Kennel(to produce War Dog Pack) I suppose it could require wolves in cages too but not necessarily and it would be nice if lions and tigers and bears were it too........but War Dogs fit for sure I am surprised vanilla civ didn't incorporrate it for the Mongols in the very least not that they were the only ones to use them the Welch loved them too........and many other civilizations....however just a tech idea for your net.

I didnt think we will do this with normal animals but we do have plans in "Shadow" to allow players to capture monster encampments and bring them to their cities to prudce new units like you are suggesting.

Cool, I still desire War Dogs. They bring a dark understanding smile to my face. But monsters that is another story........nope still desire the war dogs.........the monsters do create anice dark churning though that bubbles and pops with shadow........I like.

Would it be possible to have the AI give greater weight to Infernal Pact after the Order has been founded and vice versa? Seems to me that the Order tends to be around for awhile before the Ashen Veil (or the other way around, depending on the Civs involved). This leads to one becoming way more dominant, which is no fun.

Has there been any thought about conquest giving tech?

It was always fun in older civs to take over an enemies cities to get their technologies. It might need some restrictions (like maybe you need to raze the city, and/or the city has to be size 10 or bigger, or maybe it has to be their capital) but it would add a certain interest in taking over cities (most times it just seems like a waste, since if i don't outright destroy them, they'll just build new cities and i don't want their cities because they'd cost me too much maintenance lol).

Technically speaking, switching to the Conquest civic gives more gold when taking cities. It indirectly helps teching faster.

Well so would taking over the city and using its commerce to help research, but i like the more direct approach.

I understand that... I missed this feature too during my first CivIV games, and was even more disappointed when I realized that even spies could not steal techs from rivals :( yet again, now that I've got more experience of the game I feel that overall game balance only gets better for it. At any rate, getting a full tech favors military playing too much in my opinion (FfH already favors going for military quite a bit :D), but I guess getting a set amount of beakers for a tech might be ok if balanced well.

The problem with the lack of tech through conquest is that AI's trade techs with each other like mad, and if you don't have any techs they don't have, they can just continue to out tech you by trading with each other leaving you with nothing to trade.

I found the tech by conquest in the other civs to be balancer, as it allowed a player who was way behind on techs to have a chance to get back into the game by a good military strategy.

There is a mod for Vanilla that gives you a portion of a tech when you capture/raze an enemy city that knows a tech you don't. I like that idea.

I also like the idea of techs being easier to research when you have an open borders agreement with someone who already has that tech.

I'm not a fan of straight-across tech trading.

- Niilo

There is a mod for Vanilla that gives you a portion of a tech when you capture/raze an enemy city that knows a tech you don't. I like that idea.

I also like the idea of techs being easier to research when you have an open borders agreement with someone who already has that tech.

I'm not a fan of straight-across tech trading.

- Niilo

In SMAC (god only knows if this is possible) One could choose the option "blind-research" I LOVED THIS. I didnt intend on getting anywhere, i simply plod along and had values for my research teams. I need weapons, or better infastructure, or more exploration, etc.

It would be great if we could catagorise the techs. I suspect they already are for AI purposes. Each tech has X values of each concept. Would it be possible merely to chose "concepts" and set our own set of values, and let the tech tree take care of itself? Granted, tech-choice is a major part of civ, but it might be fun to "use what you get" in some games. Even if its just "an option" Tech-trading in this sense could be done through "beaker" trade instead of straight out tech trade.

If i had 4 social techs, 8 military techs, and 3 exploration techs, perhaps my trade-allies would/could get 4 social beakers, 8 military beakrs, and 3 exploration beakers. Each "catagory" being explored in by their civilization because of their contact with me.

Just a thought.
-Qes

SMAC sounds like a fun game :mischief:

- Niilo

New tech: "Colonialism (sp? :) )"

Requires "feudalsim" or "astronomy" and "trade".

- First to discover gets a free great merchant

- "Port Royal" national wonder: Needs a harbor, gives +100% trade route yield, +1 happines per trade route and +2 unhealthyness (requires foreign trade civic)

- Trading ship (national unit). A ship that has moderate strenght and speed and can be saced for harbor (own cities), money (friendly cities - like great merchant but maybe only 25% of :gold:) and can be used as a work boat (mainly so that kuriates can get work boats over oceans to their settlements.)

- Trading ship (national unit). A ship that has moderate strenght and speed and can be saced for harbor (own cities), money (friendly cities - like great merchant but maybe only 25% of :gold:) and can be used as a work boat (mainly so that kuriates can get work boats over oceans to their settlements.)

There are merchant ships in The Ancient Med Mod and they are a unit people like a lot. However, I think that fits better with the theme of that mod that it does for this Dark Fantasy mod.

New tech: "Colonialism (sp? :) )"

Requires "feudalsim" or "astronomy" and "trade".

- First to discover gets a free great merchant

- "Port Royal" national wonder: Needs a harbor, gives +100% trade route yield, +1 happines per trade route and +2 unhealthyness (requires foreign trade civic)

- Trading ship (national unit). A ship that has moderate strenght and speed and can be saced for harbor (own cities), money (friendly cities - like great merchant but maybe only 25% of :gold:) and can be used as a work boat (mainly so that kuriates can get work boats over oceans to their settlements.)

I think the mercantilism tech covers that. But those ideas would fit within that tech.

Mercantilism covers nothing. It grants a rather bad civic (unless you're hostile to everyone, yet somehow at peace) and a not-so-bad building. A rather excellent building, actually, if you're the Grigori.

I like Colonialism (yeah, you were right on the spelling), but the name seems off... Colonialism implies going around setting up cities, while this is a going around selling things. How about 'Independent Merchants'?

Also, how about instead of simply getting a one-time money bonus, the Trading Ships allow you to build a 'Trading Post' in a foreign city they visit? The 'Trading Post' gives THEM +25% Trade route revenue, and you some extra Gold per turn, perhaps 10% of the target city's income (I'd imagine it would work in a similar manner to Loki's theivery, only you're not stealing, you're creating new wealth).

i was thinking about how i often rush for writing, or the religions, because of the first-come-bonus, and it got me thinking that other the 3rd tier techs should have a first-come-bonus, so that it becomes a valid strategy to go anywhich way on the tech tech

so:

sailing - great merchant
drama - great bard
philosophy - great prophet
warfare - great commander
masonry - great engineer

(i picked techs that made sense for the GPs, and tried to only pick them so none of them had a similar tier 2 tech derivative with each other or writing (to make it difficult to get writing, then get a free gp tech))

(id have put horsebackriding there just to give it something, since that line is in desparate need of help, but nothing fit lol)

i was thinking about how i often rush for writing, or the religions, because of the first-come-bonus, and it got me thinking that other the 3rd tier techs should have a first-come-bonus, so that it becomes a valid strategy to go anywhich way on the tech tech

so:

sailing - great merchant
drama - great bard
philosophy - great prophet
warfare - great commander
masonry - great engineer

(i picked techs that made sense for the GPs, and tried to only pick them so none of them had a similar tier 2 tech derivative with each other or writing (to make it difficult to get writing, then get a free gp tech))

(id have put horsebackriding there just to give it something, since that line is in desparate need of help, but nothing fit lol)


I also like the idea of giving out great people for techs, but only techs that don't already give a first come-bonus thingy like religions or wonders. I also think that all of your suggestions come way too early - in a time were it is still easy to produce great people in cities and when they are still very powerfull (as they can get a tech all by themself).

I would rather have them as bonuses on pretty bland t4 techs:

- Merchant: Mercantilism

- Sage: Omnisience

- Prophet: Divine Right

Great Commander would even fit in the Cavalery branch but I'm not sure which tech - maybe armored cavalery.

i specifically chose those techs because theyre the same level as writing, and not accessible by the same tech as writings tier 2 requirement... i dont really consider them overpowered that early, since getting your first is fairly easy once you can get a specialist for it (which is tier 2 techs for most)

What if horseback rideing gave a great merchant?

What if horseback rideing gave a great merchant?

That would be awesome. I think the poor merchants get underused. Both great and mundane. There should be a conserted effort to increase their use :).
-Qes

That would be awesome. I think the poor merchants get underused. Both great and mundane. There should be a conserted effort to increase their use :).
-Qes

Which is strange since they got one of the best super specialists, and one of the best special functions.

i was thinking about how i often rush for writing, or the religions, because of the first-come-bonus, and it got me thinking that other the 3rd tier techs should have a first-come-bonus, so that it becomes a valid strategy to go anywhich way on the tech tech

so:

sailing - great merchant
drama - great bard
philosophy - great prophet
warfare - great commander
masonry - great engineer

I like this idea. Move it from sailing to horseback riding, sailing, imo, is a much higher priority than it's peers, unless playing landlocked maps.

ya thatd be cool too


any chance hunting and tracking can be switched? right now you need hunting just to get archery, but it seems like a waste to go for archery when you already have the best strength 3 unit (and its much easier to get the next tier in the hunter line than the archery line as well). if not, can hunters be moved to Tracking? renaming them Trackers would do the same thing and make sense if the Blah-ing and Blah-er relation is needed.

and for acrobats, could they be made to only need Festivals (or Drama, though make them slightly better if so) to make? needing double the requirements for acrobats than others need for their equivalent is a pain and nonintuitive.

Drama could allow a Balseraph Axeman replacement instead? Name = ????

Also a Balseraph maceman replacement Gleeful Slaughterer with Deception?

dont give them hunters or axemen and instead give them acrobats with drama that have 4 strength maybe? :p

i just dont think it makes much sense to require hunting and festivals to make their 3 strength all purpose super unit when everyone else only needs only hunting, more UUs for the balseraphs would be fun tho

Belseraph Replacements:

Axemen --> Mummers
Macemen --> Maniacs? (Uncontrollable laughter - Mania)

-Qes

I used the great people on techs suggestions to add the following:

Great Sage- granted with Writing instead of the free tech (gives the player more options and is a more interesting mechanic).

Great Merchant- Mercantilism as Frozen-Vomit suggested.

Great Bard- Drama as Sureshot suggested.

Great Engineer- Engineering.

Great Commander- Miltiary Strategy.

I didnt put a prophet one down, they are just too handy with a founding religion. And I tended to move them back a little later in the tech tree then origionally suggested.

It should work out well and provide some interesting choices with tech rushing.

Cool. Would it be possible to make an announcement: "Frankie is the first person to discover Engineering!" At least, I like having that sort of information so I know what it is plausible to go for and so I can be appropriately frustrated when Frankie has gotten the tech one turn ahead of me.

I used the great people on techs suggestions to add the following:
...
It should work out well and provide some interesting choices with tech rushing.

Belseraph Replacements:

Axemen --> Mummers
Macemen --> Maniacs? (Uncontrollable laughter - Mania)

-Qes
So they go from being silent, to laughing non-stop? heh... Deadly mimes...mmmm

Great Sage- granted with Writing instead of the free tech (gives the player more options and is a more interesting mechanic).
That's a good idea. :goodjob:

Ah, free great people from techs will be very nice. Hopefully, it will spice up the tree a bit...

So, what are your thoughts on granting a second GS with a later tech?

So they go from being silent, to laughing non-stop? heh... Deadly mimes...mmmm

Surely your not telling me there ought to be any kind of valid logical progression for the belseraphs? Silent to non-stop-laughter seems almost necessary for their methods.

It's kind of like "drunk logic" surely your not questioning it.
-Qes

EDIT: and I wont call you Surely.

Macemen --> Maniacs? (Uncontrollable laughter - Mania)

I'm satisfied with nothing less than being a hero. :mad:

I'm satisfied with nothing less than being a hero. :mad:

:lol: .

I'm satisfied with nothing less than being a hero. :mad:

Wow, i walked into that one.
-Qes

Dragged this thread up from the depths of the forum to post a random tech idea I conjured up:

Memories of Ice
Cost: Free starting tech for certain civs. (Doviello, Illians) (Possibly researchable by others?)
Requires: Nothing (Available at the beginning if researchable.)
Leads to: Nothing
Gain two free warriors in your capital upon researching it. (Replacing the Doviello starting bonus.)
Enables Elder Council (Same as the mysticism one - just an alternate way to get it.)
Enables Bone Hunter (Specialized scaling anti-wilderness disciple unit, see below.)

Surviving the Age of Ice is no small feat - while most prefer to forget all about it, some instead look back to learn as much as possible from their experiences.



(Unit: Bone Hunter. Shamanistic warriors specialized in destroying the undead skeletons and animal packs roaming the icy wastes, they have learned to draw on the unholy power of the bony remains gathered from destroyed undead.

Cost: 150% of scout cost
1 strength, 1 movement point
Starts with Bone Hunter promotion
+200% strength vs Undead
+100% Tundra and Ice defense
Can upgrade to Adept, Prophet.)


(Promotion: Bone Hunter.
When killing an undead unit, gain the empower I promotion, or upgrade an existing empower promotion. If the unit has empower V, instead gain a point of base strength and lose empower, allowing it to start from I again.)


Free virtual cookie to anyone who spots the literary reference in the names.