The Religions:

http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Religions/Order.jpg
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Ordertheme.mp3
The Order- Junil, the elder of the Gods, had promised to stay apart from the conflict on Earth. No one knows why he decided to change that, some say it was to combat the influence of the Ashen Veil, others that it was jealousy. Regardless of his reason he promised salvation to the least of men and asked only one thing in return, their obedience.

State Religion allows access to:
Basilica (building)
Basilica (building)
Confessor (unit)
Crusader (unit)
Valen Phanuel (world unit)
Sphener (world unit)
Social Order (civic)
Unquestioning Obedience (technology)

State religion denies access to:
Eidolon (national unit)

http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Religions/Runes.jpg
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Runestheme.mp3
Runes of Kilmorph- Kilmorph is the goddess of the earth, she who dwells beneath. She formed children out of stone, the Dwarves, and taught them the secrets of metalworking. One of the first religions available to the men of the world Kilmorph will answer the prayers of men and even send her soldiers to defend their cities.

State Religion allows access to:
Dwarven Soldier (unit)
Paramander (unit)
Stonewarden (unit)
Bambur (world unit)
Arthendain (world unit)
Arete (civic)
Arete (technology)

State religion denies access to:
Eidolon (national unit)

http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Religions/Leaves.jpg
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Leavestheme.mp3
Fellowship of Leaves- Deep in the woods the whispers of Elves linger. Ancient protectors uninvolved in the affairs of men some men have proven enough loyalty to them to learn their magic and even gain the assistance of the Elven Archers.

State Religion allows access to:
Elven Archer (unit)
Priest of Leaves (unit)
Yvain the Wood Elf (world unit)
Kithra Kyriel (world unit)
Guradian of Nature (civic)
Hidden Paths (technology)

http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Religions/Dragon.jpg
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Dragontheme.mp3
Cult of the Dragon-Forgotten and ignored by the gods some men have turned to worshipping the great dragons that once fought over the land and now lie dormant beneath it. Within the Kuriotate and Sheaim civilizations these groups have begun to gather in strength, forming small cults with very different agendas. But they all agree that dragons are divine and find their draconic gods to be much more accessible than empty prayers offered in the temples.

A cult is unlike other religions, it can not be adopted as a state religion and makes your empire harder to manage and control. Having the Cult of the Dragon in one of your cities has the following effects.

1. 20% of the living units produced in that city will start with the Cult of the Dragon promotion. If a Cult of the Dragon unit is in a tile owned by the holder of the Cult of the Dragon holy city he has a 3% chance to convert to serving that civilization.

2. The Cult of the Dragon reduces the cities culture by 1 each turn. This can cause the city to be destroyed if it runs out of culture. This does not effect Kuriotate or Sheaim cities.

This religion can only be founded by the Kuriotates or Sheaim.

http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Religions/Overlord.jpg
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Overlordstheme.mp3
Octopus Overlords- The power beneath the Aegean waves is said to be more powerful than any other, but the Overlords are unfocused and follow a thousand different obscure agendas. The Disciples of the Overlords dare not expose themselves directly to the conflicting commands of their masters and instead use the poor as intermediaries. They are quickly driven insane by the process which the disciples prefer as it keeps them from manipulating the message. They also share the process of turning a Warrior into The Drown, undead thralls, a process with few volunteers.

State Religion allows access to:
Asylum (building)
Cultist (unit)
Stygian Guard (unit)
The Drown (unit)
Saverous (world unit)
Hemah (world unit)
Slavery (civic)
Mind Stapling (technology)

State religion denies access to:
Paladin (national unit)

http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Religions/Veil.jpg
Theme: http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Audio/Ashentheme.mp3
The Ashen Veil- Mages spent weeks in meditation, exploring the farthest reaches of the ethereal world. The demands of the body were ignored, and they survived sustained only by magic. Their efforts were rewarded, a sentience was contacted, dark and horrible. It whispered secrets into the mages minds, necromancy, diseases, sacrifical rites. It promised power in exchange for their blood, and they freely gave it.

State Religion allows access to:
Demons Altar (building)
Diseased Corpse (unit)
Ritualist (unit)
Beast of Agares (national unit)
Rosier the Fallen (world unit)
Mardero (world unit)
Sacrifice the Weak (civic)
Corruption of Spirit (technology)

State religion denies access to:
Paladin (national unit)


The Good Gods:

Lugus- Angel of Light (Sun), god of the dawn, god of guardians, the everwatchful. Worshipped by The Empyrean

Sirona- Angel of Wisdom (Spirit)

Nantosuelta- Angel of Faith (Enchantment), who restored Sucellus to life

Sucellus- Angel of Growth (Life), killed by Mulcurn and reborn, Sucellus was the Angel of Nature before he died but became the Angel of Life when he was reborn. Previously, Dagda was both the Angel of Life and Death. Worshipped by the Unblemished.

Amathaon- Angel of Fertility (Creation)

Junil- Angel of Justice (Law), worshipped by the Order


The Neutral Gods:

Kilmorph- Angel of the Earth (Earth), worshipped by the Runes of Kilmorph

Oghma- Angel of Knowledge (Metamagic). Oghma is revered by many who pursue knowledge, especially those that chronicle it. He doesn't have typical churches or religious services but there are many libraries and schools that revere him and a vast hierarchy of those that keep and share information similiar to the structures of other churches. A sapere is a respected professional in this hierarchy that would be comparable to priests of other religions.

Cernunnos- Angel of Nature (Nature), worshipped by the Fellowship of Leaves, Cernunnos was the father of Forests and one of Sucellus's greatest subordinates until he died. When Sucellus was reborn he gifted his authority over nature to Cernunnos.

Arawn- Angel of Death (Death), Arawn is almost completly uninterested in what is happening in the world as his attention is on the underworld. He ignores what few worshippers he has.

Dagda- Angel of Balance (Force)

Tali- Angel of the Air (Air), worshipped by the Foxmen.

Danalin- Angel of the Water (Water), worshipped indirectly by the Octopus Overlords (Danalin is sleeping and his nightmares are being influenced by Hastur and other demons under Mammon's control)


The Evil Gods:

Camulos- Angel of War (Chaos). Those that venerate Camulos don't comply to any organizational structure that anyone can understand. There are hundreds of factions and they are just as likely to fight each other as they are to fight other groups.

Aeron- Angel of Hate (Body), spirit of rage, god of the berserkers. Worshipped by the Occis.

Ceridwen- Angel of the Stars (Dimensional), who first brought magic to man. Worshipped by the Emrys

Mammon- Angel of Greed (Mind). Worshipped by the Stewards of Inequity.

Esus- Angel of Deception (Shadow), sacred to thieves and liars. Worshipped by the Council of Esus

Mulcarn- Angel of Ice (Winter), killed by Kyorlin with the Godslayer. Worshipped by the White Hand

Agares- Angel of the Night (Entropy), the greatest of angels, worshipped by the Ashen Veil

Bhall- Angel of Fire (Fire), who fell at the end of the Age of Magic

Reserved for ideas under consideration.

What about the 16 other religions you said existed?
Could we have a little flavor on them?

What about the 16 other religions you said existed?
Could we have a little flavor on them?

Its just a religion worshipping each of the 21 gods. In the D&D game the religion varied from country to country, so Bhall was worshipped by the Orcs as the goddess of slaughter but in Braduk she was still worshipped in her ancient aspect as the queen of light.

So that wouldn't translate very well into a civ4 model. I'' try to add a list of each of the gods so you can get a feel for each of them.

I think that it will translate easily into Civ IV. What you do is create 21 different religions, each with different specialties, and each spanning a few spheres.

Then you create the different temple upgrades and units to symbolize each of the different routes a civ can take worshipping that God.

The Orcs would get a temple that gave them lots of happiness from sacrificing captives, and gave all units trained int he city a city raider one promotion.
Braduk would get a maintenance reducing one that increased sight range from city borders.

When I have some time I'll take whatever flavor you can give me and create the temple upgrades for each religion. Maybe the temples as well lol.

[QUOTE=Kael]The Religions:
Lugus- Angel of Light (Sun), god of the dawn, god of guardians, the everwatchful
Temple: Allows training of acolyte, priest, special unit (i'll get these guys later)
+1 trade route
+25% trade rotue yeild
+1 happiness from inscence

Upgrade 1
+25% city defense
+25% extra city defense against demons
Disciple units start with blessed promotion
-10% culture

Upgrade 2
+25% city defense
+25% city defense against Undead, Shades
Units built in city gain sentry promotion
-1 priest allowed

Upgrade 3
Allows training of gaurdian spirit (invisible immobile unit that is good against human units)
+1 trade route
+25% unti heal per turn in city
-10% military build

Just a little more flavor and I'll be able to do more.

Now that i think about it wou don't need to have 21 religions.
Here are the other ones needed:

One with sun, and a little fire and spirit
One combining life and nature and creation, with Creation dominant
On combining Spirit and enchantment

One of Metamagic alone
Death with a smidgen of entropy
Include a little more air with the Water one

Chaos with a little fire and a lot of body
Fire with chaos and a little entropy
Min, with dimensional and shadow included

Loads of religions strikes me as a "Fun on paper, impossible in reality" kind of idea.
Three problems I can see:
1. Creating even more religions with temples, specialities and disciples is a lot of work.
2. I'm worried the religions would necessarily end up being uncomfortably similar, there is a limit to the variations we can make.
3. More religions than civs (i.e. number of "players" in the game, since most people can't have too many before overloading the computer) could easily get frustrating.

Loads of religions strikes me as a "Fun on paper, impossible in reality" kind of idea.
Three problems I can see:
1. Creating even more religions with temples, specialities and disciples is a lot of work.
2. I'm worried the religions would necessarily end up being uncomfortably similar, there is a limit to the variations we can make.
3. More religions than civs (i.e. number of "players" in the game, since most people can't have too many before overloading the computer) could easily get frustrating.

1. I think that this wouldn't be too dificult.
2. Well each evil religion might be similar in geing evil, but would should be able to distinguish each of them.
3. Well Kael had a great way of solving this. Say we create 5 different evil religions. There would be one tech for the first three, and one tech for the other too. These could only be research by evil civ's (evil will be an attribute you start this game with but game slowly change). Evil civ A researchs the first tech, and chooses to found one of the three religions. Then then evil civ B researchs the secodn tech and chooses one of the two religions. The other 3 religions can't be founded. However, quests might allow them, and civil wars could be started by one of these religions being founded in a good country through general unhappiness. This way, it would be very unlikely for there to be more religions that players, except in the late game when many players have been eliminated.

Actually, the solution point 3. pretty much solves the problem of point 2. as well. In fact, if you have to chose one religion out of three, it may possibly be an advantage if the religions had fairly similar attributes, but different flavours.

But I'm developing a sentimental attachment to the "old" religions :blush:

hmm

Ok, we have 5 religious techs in the tree.
We have good, neutral and evil civs.

We can have 15 religions from that without adding anything at all or making the tech tree into a bowl of spaghetti, and add just a few techs for the others.

Say we have a good civ, and it goes for hunting, then philosophy. Next normally would be Elven Studies-if it was neutral. Elven studies can be renamed to a more generic tech name (nature studies), and only teach Fellowship of Leaves to a neutral civ that researches it. Our hypothetical good civ instead discovers the religion of Sucellus, Angel of Life (formerly nature).

An evil civ that follows the same tech path would discover Aeron, god of hate and barbarians. (all just examples)

The angel of greed could come to the first evil civ that researches taxation.

The hard part, as I see it, is comming up with unique units and further techs and music and everything else that comes with 21 religions. How big do we want the download to get?

Well we have 15 religions, so fifteen new techs. I don't see donwload size as an issue, we can just compress and break it up.
Music is less of an issue. If neccesary we can duplicate music for similar religions.
I find that coming up with units is easy once we divide the religions into charts with their spheres, advantages, disadvantages, founding tech, and alignment all shown.

But I'm developing a sentimental attachment to the "old" religions :blush:

Don't worry, they'll still be there.

My point was that we don't even need to add in new techs at all, just a combination of path versus alignment to determine what religion you get. That way, you can go for the religion you want, and have a good chance of getting it.

Are there only 15 religions ? I count 21 gods in the OP. Which gods don't have religions?

My point was that we don't even need to add in new techs at all, just a combination of path versus alignment to determine what religion you get. That way, you can go for the religion you want, and have a good chance of getting it.

Are there only 15 religions ? I count 21 gods in the OP. Which gods don't have religions?

I meant 15 special techs. Ie: hidden paths.

Well I think that combining some gods would work nicely, and some don't need a religion:
1. Death wouldn't have a large enough following. Sidar will be able to build some death temples though.
2. Metamagic-wouldn't involve in conflcits of mortals
3. Winter is a minor civ and doesn't get a religion. Illian gets temples of ice though.
4. Combine chaos and fire into a chaos religion. Loved by the orcs, and aggresive human civs.
5. Nature is a subordinate of life, both are combined in Fellowship of Leaves.

So, we are left with:

Lugus
Sirona
Nantosuelta
Amathaon
Junil
______
Kilmorph
Cernunnos
Dagda
Tali
Danalin
_______
Camulos/Bhall
Aeron
Ceridwen
Mammon
Esus
Agares

One more evil, but that's ok.

So...first tech in religion path, combined with alignment, gives religion. Each religion branches off into its own specific tech such as hidden paths or divinaton. That's definately workable.

In that case, I think that Aeron should also be melted into the chaos fire thing. Although it will end up kinda smushed, those three gods are all pretty similar. As you said, this is definetly workable. I've got some extra time now, want to work on that chart i mentioned earlier?

Starting from the top:

Lugus, god of the sun.
Tech is Monotheism? Religious Law? Ancient Chants? I think he's that kinda guy.
Sphere is the sun. Duh. Branches into fire and spirit as well though.
Alignment = very good
Advantages: Gets desert terrain bonuses. Likes sunlit open spaces. Gets sight bonuses, can kill vampires and demons easily. Gets good blazing angels.
Disadvantages: Bad in jungles, can't use any evil units. Desert in their borders spreads like forests. Loses many bonuses when army is in in evil land. (better on defense, like mentioned in Kael's writeup).

This is just some brainstorming.

I think you should first look at the beginnings of the new tech chart posted in the technologies thread. So there is no more monotheism or religious law.

But I like your ideas. All are good and add flavor.

Sirona-angel of Wisdom.
Tech- Drama
Sphere- Spirit
Alignment-good
Advantages-culture bonus in all cities. Attacking civs gain increased war weariness. Defeated units have a small chance to resurrect as a spirit with 4 strength in foreign lands and 8 in homelands.
Disadvantages-Cannot declare war on non-evil civs. (biggy!)

K. In that case i think that the sun religion should be given with ancietn chants, becuase it is a very old religion.

However, it wouldn't get as many bonuses because it is such an earlly religion.
--maybe, what do you think?

Would you mind writing up a simple chart of a current religion, so i can compare the ones we are creating with the olds ones and make sure they are balanced.

Finally, how about Eye of God as name of the sun religion. That is what most ancient ppl thought of the sun i believe.

Sirona-angel of Wisdom.
Tech- Drama
Sphere- Spirit
Alignment-good
Advantages-culture bonus in all cities. Attacking civs gain increased war weariness. Defeated units have a small chance to resurrect as a spirit with 4 strength in foreign lands and 8 in homelands.
Disadvantages-Cannot declare war on non-evil civs. (biggy!)

Okay, now we've started two religions. 8 to go.
Some modifications: cities gain no defensive bonus from fortifications, only culture.
Can declare war on non-evil civs, but has +100% war weariness, starting with 10% of cities.
Increased great artist birth obviously.

Name is difficult though: Artistry of Sirona?

Amatheon-angel of fertility
Tech-Medicine+philosophy
Sphere-Creation
Alignment-Good
Advantages-Bonus health in all cities. Special tech allows building of wonder that removes all sickness from one city.
Disadvantages-Cannot build buildings that will give a currently negative health level in cities. ( no training yard until you get that herbalist running, etc.)

In general, I think the total tech cost of a religion should palce it at around teir 6-8 on my chart. All of the current ones are at 6, with one at 7. Just count the squares it takes to get to a spot.

So, my medicine+philosophy example above gives a religion tier of 7. (4+3-1 for a shared tech in those two lines[mysticism] and +1 because a tech always goes one higher than its prerequisites. So a tech that had only one prerquisite would be one higher than the prerequisite. But if it has two, you have to add them up, then add one. Hope I'm not being too confusing)

The point of all this babbling is to keep the religions from being founded so early that they take over the world, or so late that they become a footnote in history. A tech or two difference can make a huge difference down the line.

Current religion for comparrison

Fellowship of leaves.(cernunnos)
Tech-Hunting+Philosophy, teir 6
Alignment Neutral (maybe allow good as well?)
Advantages-Elven archers. Bonus lumbermills acheivable. Ygdrassil+ fruit. WoodsmanII tech. Treehome. (+defense and health in cities)
Disadvantages- Penalty for building asylums and necropolises in cities with treehome.

Eye of God (sun religion-Lugus)
Tech-Calendar+Optics, teir 6 ( i'd add an OR operative to optics so that it can be reached from either boating OR cartography, and give it some other functions if we went with this path. That way this religion has a good chance of getting the Tower of Eyes, which only makes sense.)
Rest the same so far.

Dagda, god of balance (force)
Tech-Laws+Philosophy, teir 7
Alignment-Neutral
Advantages-Similar to the Order. Basillica like building. Instead of the Oracle-wonder that gives units a free movement promotion.
Disadvantages-hmmm.

In general, I think the total tech cost of a religion should palce it at around teir 6-8 on my chart. All of the current ones are at 6, with one at 7. Just count the squares it takes to get to a spot.

So, my medicine+philosophy example above gives a religion tier of 7. (4+3-1 for a shared tech in those two lines[mysticism] and +1 because a tech always goes one higher than its prerequisites. So a tech that had only one prerquisite would be one higher than the prerequisite. But if it has two, you have to add them up, then add one. Hope I'm not being too confusing)

The point of all this babbling is to keep the religions from being founded so early that they take over the world, or so late that they become a footnote in history. A tech or two difference can make a huge difference down the line.

I see what you mean. I'll really need to see this new tech tree first, but i can give you the flavor for them.

Flavor is good. I need some time to recharge my own idea well before I throw any more out there. I can add in the techs where they go later easily enough. Just let me know if you want the religion to be early (teir6), middle(teir7), or late (teir8), and i'll figure out a logical path.

Speaking of teirs, I've been thinking about moving Runes of Kilmporph up a teir. It is very powerfull in my play experience. Not only is it founded early, its temples provide much needed gold, and the tech that leads to it (bronze working) is pretty much a must have, meaing you can rush for it and not cripple yourself. This might be mitigated when the new civ traits go in though, so I'll hold off for a while. (bronze working isn't a must have for an elven civ that can't chop trees for example, though it's still usefull.)

Flavor is good. I need some time to recharge my own idea well before I throw any more out there. I can add in the techs where they go later easily enough. Just let me know if you want the religion to be early (teir6), middle(teir7), or late (teir8), and i'll figure out a logical path.

Lugus-Early
Sirona-Medium
Nantosuelta-Medium
Junil-Late
Kilmorph-Late
Cernunnos-Medium
Dagda-Early
Tali-Early
Danalin-Early
Camulos-Early
Ceridwen-Medium
Mammon-Late
Esus-Late
Agares-Late

Dagda, god of balance (force)
Tech-Laws+Philosophy, teir 7
Alignment-Neutral
Advantages-Similar to the Order. Basillica like building. Instead of the Oracle-wonder that gives units a free movement promotion.
Disadvantages-hmmm.

I was thinking something very different from this for them. More magical, and about using force spells to acheive total balance in the world. Militaristic, but against themselves as much as others. Purge themselves not of teh wrongdoers, but of everything that causes imbalance. They are the totally neutral guys.

EDIT: if something goes out of balance then they fix it, be it good or bad. Definetly anit-armeggedon types.

More magical and early would mean a better tech path would be Laws+Simple Runes. Simple runes gives Adepts and eventually heads up to sorcery. Laws provides an alternate path to sorcery, so they're all set.

So far the techs are:

Lugus-Simple Runes+Laws-6
Sirona-Drama-7
Amatheon-Medicine+Philosophy-7
Junil-Religious Law-7(middle, can be moved up to high by adding philosophy)

I thought we were not giving Sucellus a religion? Though I don't think think that giving each alignment five gods is particularly important. But perhaps we should merge him in with Leaves just to make things simpler.

I thought we were not giving Sucellus a religion? Though I don't think think that giving each alignment five gods is particularly important. But perhaps we should merge him in with Leaves just to make things simpler.

Yes, I think that makes the most sense.

Amatheon-angel of fertility
Tech-Medicine+philosophy
Sphere-Creation
Alignment-Good
Advantages-Bonus health in all cities. Special tech allows building of wonder that removes all sickness from one city.
Disadvantages-Cannot build buildings that will give a currently negative health level in cities. ( no training yard until you get that herbalist running, etc.)

I think that this is a little to prescise at the moment. Just somethine like: health bonuses, less developed cities. What if their civic allowed them to use food for everything, including building?

Lugus-Simple Runes+Laws-6
Sirona-Drama-7
Amatheon-Medicine+Philosophy-7
Junil-Religious Law-7(middle, can be moved up to high by adding philosophy)

Here's some flavor on each of them.

Sirona: to them everything is art created by Sirona.
Junil: duh
Lugus: They must let Lugus' gaze fall on them, and try to let him see everywhere.
Amatheon: Intermix energies of life and inanimate objects to create things.

Any more name ideas?

Well unfortunately you decided that there will only be 3 more religions at the most. ei: one from each alignment.

Here are the spehres nicely divided up:
Order-Force, Law
Runes-Earth
Fellowship-Life, Creation, Nature
Veil-Entropy, Dimensional, Shadow
OO-Mind, Knowledge, Water
New-Fire, Chaos, Body
New-Sun, Spirit, Enchantment

Air and Death not included, I can't figure out where air should go except Runes or Order. The order could get Griffins flying around with Soldiers on their backs, or Runes could use air spells form its moutnain peaks.

Death can go with earth. Makes sense if you've played mage:the awakening. ;)

Put enchantment with Earth as well. Then put air with Sun and Spirit.

Death can go with earth. Makes sense if you've played mage:the awakening. ;)

Put enchantment with Earth as well. Then put air with Sun and Spirit.

I liek teh enchantment and air changes. However, i think it would work best if there is no death religion. Arwawn ignores him followers, so no one except sidar would get his stuff.

No death, muhaha!!

Well, the way I would have it work is that you only get full access to the death spells if you are the Sidar. All other civilizations might get access to the SorceryI death spell ( if they get to sorcery), and that's it, no divine or level 2. They'd have full acess to earth and enchantment.

Conversely, the Sidar get limited access to the earth sphere, and full access to death, and enchantment.

The magic spheres would only be loosely tied together, as limited package deals.

Well, the way I would have it work is that you only get full access to the death spells if you are the Sidar. All other civilizations might get access to the SorceryI death spell ( if they get to sorcery), and that's it, no divine or level 2. They'd have full acess to earth and enchantment.

Conversely, the Sidar get limited access to the earth sphere, and full access to death, and enchantment.

The magic spheres would only be loosely tied together, as limited package deals.

the way i see it, there would be non-divine death spells available to all, but through magic nodes and very slowly.
1 node = Sor I
2 nodes = Sor II
3 nodes = Sum II
4 nodes = Sor III
5 nodes = Sum III

The sidar would get all of this stuff, and the divine spells. Death would be only available through nodes, not religion.

I don't think that they would be packaged deals, except for the religions. Each civ has there own sphere and only its own sphere, each node has 1 sphere, but each religion has 2 or 3 spheres.

Updated the first post with the alignment changes.

I was more thinking of the alignments as on a 1-9 scale. 1-3 are good, and 1 is uber good. 4-6 are neutral, with 4 leaning good and 6 leaning bad. 7-9 are evil, and 9 is most evil.

The order would give like -5 points, runes -3, fellowship nothing, OO +3, AV +5. Other things could also effect this.

I was more thinking of the alignments as on a 1-9 scale. 1-3 are good, and 1 is uber good. 4-6 are neutral, with 4 leaning good and 6 leaning bad. 7-9 are evil, and 9 is most evil.

The order would give like -5 points, runes -3, fellowship nothing, OO +3, AV +5. Other things could also effect this.

The problem with scales from a game design perspective is that unless you scale the entire system it becomes very herky jerky. And scaling the entire system evens things out so much that they become bland.

So for example Good civs give +4 attitude to other good civs and -8 vs Evil civs. A civ could be sitting at 6 (neutral) because of a good bonus they get for having public healers, then switch to a lesser compassion option, lose the good bonus and suddenly be disliked by all their good allies.

It makes it complex. Interesting for us from a design perspective, but confusing for casual players. Especially in a strategy game (as compared to a RPG) you want to have clear differientiated options, which scales take away from.

So instead of a scale we should tie alignment directly to something else. I would recommend having it initially set by the Civ and then changed according to the religion. Is there a better way we could do it?

Other options:

1. We could make it fixed by the Civ and disallow religions that don't match the civs starting alignment (the Bannor could never follow the Veil, the Sheaim could never worship Kilmorph, etc).

2. Alignment is set by the Civ and independant of the religion, such that the Bannor can worship the Veil and still remain good.

I tend to prefer the origional recommendation, but what do you guys think?

A combination might work.

Keep the alignment relations modifiers.

All civs have a starting alignment that gives them points on a scale that doesn't do anything but determine their alignment.



All good civs + 1
All neutral civs 0
All evil civs -1

This is their starting alignment.

You then add in a religion modifier.

Order +1
Leaves, Runes, OO, +0
Veil -1

To get the final alignment. Any positive integer value is counted as good, any zero value neutral, and any negative value as evil. No scale, a good civ at +2 is the same as one at +1.

So a neutral civ that adopts a good religion becomes good, and evil if it adopts an evil religion, and stays neutral if it adopts a neutral religion.

A good civ stays good if it adopts a good or neutral religion, and goes to neutral if it adopts an evil religion. That way the evil guys still mistrust them, but not as badly as if they were good.

An evil civ would always be looked upon with suspicion by the good civs. So it could bump itself up to neutral by adopting a good religion, but that's about it.

I think a slight modification of this should distinguish runes and OO from fellowship.
Otherwise good idea.

All three of those are neutral. I guess it depends upon how complicated we want it to get. The elves might not like the smelly dwarves, who can't stand the stuck-up elves, and neither can stand the crazy OO. But even if that's implemented, it should be done seperately from alignment.

I think that the god of air is a little weak. What if he was also the patron of all Angels? Since now we are using angels.

I think that the god of air is a little weak. What if he was also the patron of all Angels? Since now we are using angels.

Tali isn't good so he wouldn't make a very good patron of angels. We would really need to have flying creatures in the game to do justice to a religion worshipping Tali.

Tali isn't good so he wouldn't make a very good patron of angels. We would really need to have flying creatures in the game to do justice to a religion worshipping Tali.

Griffins, dragons, air spirits, angels, "cloud-walkers", flying lizard, Wind knights, etc? Why not once we have models?

Well, air spirits are easy. :p

I really think that we should add in a religion for Lugus.
The Eye of God. A very expansive religion that wants to spread lugus' influence throughout the world. Expanding in open places mostly, where he can see them. They fight little because what do they have to fear? Lugus is watching out for them. They build new ways of focusing the power of the sun everywhere. If threatened they can use lugus' gaurdians, a military force that can stop any invader in his tracks.

I don't think that the order should be in the spirit sphere. Instead I think that they should have the air sphere. The idea i get from them is iron-fisted ruling, which airborn enforcers would really help with.

I've always associated air with Chaos, not Law-too much D&D perhaps? But the wind blows this way and that, and cares not for the rule of law.

I don't think that the order should be in the spirit sphere. Instead I think that they should have the air sphere. The idea i get from them is iron-fisted ruling, which airborn enforcers would really help with.

The order does have a fairly commanding spirit based group in their diviners (who see the future) and their confessors (who would have felt perfectly at home in the spanish inquisition). The order is about control, and their armies are just the physicl manifestation of that, they are also just as concerned (if not more concerned) with controling the beliefs and desires of their citizens. Besies both of the spirit divine spells are perfect order spells, they help the many/weaker mobs that the Order loves. If anything the Veil will probably lose the sphere.

If anything the Veil will probably lose the sphere.
I think that the Veil should get Mind, Death, or Ice instead. I can imagine that they would like ice as the solution to life.

Chalid had the idea to add yield bonus's to the mana resources based on the owning players civilization. I don't want to lock players into certain religion/mana combinations by making the bonus's to strong, but I could defintily see the advantage of doing something like this.

There are several way we could implement a religion/mana synergy bonus, we could:

1. Have the religious units of the appropriate type have a production bonus if that resource is available.

2. Have the religious units gain starting xp/bonuses if the correct mana types exist.

3. Have the mana resource grant happiness in the temples.

4. Have the mana resource grant a yield bonus in the temples.

For each of the religions think about their relationship with mana and what their primary and secondary mana types would be and what kind of synergy they should recieve. These need to be kept very minor, this is a flavor mechanic not a strategic mechanic.

The Order- (pri: Law, sec: Life, Spirit, Fire)
Runes of Kilmorph- (pri: Earth, sec: Life, Body, Enchantment)
Fellowship of Leaves- (pri: Nature, sec: Life, Creation)
Octopus Overlords- (pri: Water, sec: Mind, Body, Chaos)
The Ashen Veil- (pri: Entropy, sec: Death, Fire)

Ideas:

The Order- Order specific units (not all units for order civs) are +10% production with the Law sphere and +5% for life, spiit and fire.

Runes of Kilmorph- Runes temples grant +1 hammer for earth, body and enchantment resouces and +1 health with life

Fellowship of Leaves- temple bonus: +1 health from nature, +2 food with life and creation

Octopus Overlords- Asylum produced in half the time with mind, overlord specific units get +2 xp with water and +1 xp with chaos, +1 health in temples with body

The Ashen Veil- veil specific units get +2 xp with entropy, +1 xp with death and +1 xp with fire

I like options 1 and 3 the best, but after seeing it all spelled out for each religion every idea is sound.

I think the happiness bonus makes the most sense, though they all can work. The dwarves should be at least slightly happier if their leader has them worshipping Kilmorph than if they were worshipping something else, for example. And since a happiness bonus usually equals more population, there will be a slight production and commerce bonus as a side-effect.

XP bonusses seem a bit too much to me. It might have the effect of "locking in" the best choice.

Chalid had the idea to add yield bonus's to the mana resources based on the owning players civilization. I don't want to lock players into certain religion/mana combinations by making the bonus's to strong, but I could defintily see the advantage of doing something like this.
Ideas:

The Order- Order specific units (not all units for order civs) are +10% production with the Law sphere and +5% for life, spiit and fire.

Runes of Kilmorph- Runes temples grant +1 hammer for earth, body and enchantment resouces and +1 health with life

Fellowship of Leaves- temple bonus: +1 health from nature, +2 food with life and creation

Octopus Overlords- Asylum produced in half the time with mind, overlord specific units get +2 xp with water and +1 xp with chaos, +1 health in temples with body

The Ashen Veil- veil specific units get +2 xp with entropy, +1 xp with death and +1 xp with fire

Order-Maybe for law they get +2 units allowed to be drafted per turn, and the otehrs give +5% military production (stacks).

Runes-I like those ideas.

Fellowship-Kinda generic, but nice. Maybe if they have nature then all units start with woodsman I.

OO-I love the asylum bonus. Maybe water gives ships +2 xp as well?

AV-Boring. I don't have time now, but i'll think of some more in the morning. Maybe allowing sages?

Order-Maybe for law they get +2 units allowed to be drafted per turn, and the otehrs give +5% military production (stacks).

Runes-I like those ideas.

Fellowship-Kinda generic, but nice. Maybe if they have nature then all units start with woodsman I.

OO-I love the asylum bonus. Maybe water gives ships +2 xp as well?

AV-Boring. I don't have time now, but i'll think of some more in the morning. Maybe allowing sages?

I agree with all three of you, and I think Loki nailed it. We will take out the xp benifits. What about doing away with the secondary benifits and just doing something on the pirmary sphere? Remember though that the primary sphere is handed out with the holy city upgrade (Stigmata of the Unborn/The Necronomicon/etc) so civs will automatically get it if they use a great prophet for the upgrade and hold the holy city.

My yield-bonus-idea was motivated by the idea, that the AIs priorities (that are set by leader specific weights) would be modified a bit in the direction of the respective religion.

But this could also be archived by adding small weights based on the religion? If you want I'll look into that matter next after my Promotion-Project.

Nevertheless i think we should give small bonuses for the secondary manas to encourage their use.

Nevertheless i think we should give small bonuses for the secondary manas to encourage their use.

Yeah because each civ will also have their starting mana. This encourages the Elohim to be an order civ.

I think there should definately be some AI biases thrown in on top of any bonuses we give. So that it'll be rare to see an AI Elohim civ be Veil, for instance. There should be some predictability that allows people to make strategies. For example, in a vanilla game, if your neighbor is Monty, you prepare for war. If you are surrounded by evil civs, a viable strategy then becomes rushing for Veil, because you know that your neighbors will be happy to convert, and loath to convert away.

Hmm good idea and something not involving special FfH code to code... i think ill try my hand on this if our Lead Designer likes it. ;)

I prefer the title Mr MonkeyPants. :)

I think the idea is great, I think it should be linked to the leaders personalities so that a random personalities will mix up who wants what. I added alignment to the mod along with getAlignment() and setAlignment() functions and weighting the religions on alignment seems appropriate. Especially since that will swing their chances as the religion changes.

Im not to worried about civs founding the wrong religion. I can block ai civs from researching opposed religion granting techs if no one has discovered them yet. Im also not to worried about them being converted through diplomacy because they will be dealing with such significant modifiers it will be as hard as it should be to switch a leaders alignment.

So the only situation that I think we could use a change is a civs tendancy to switch to a religion that has spread into their lands. Chalid, if you would like to swing at it that would be awesome, ill the full ffh source this weekend so you can have all the changes and the alignment functions.

So for the two dragon religions:
Gold-Shining Savior
Black-???

Start techs (also automatically give baby dragon)
Holy Creation
Holy Summoning (the black dragon was a summoning that became a religion)

Perhaps the kuriotates can never convert to the sheaim religion and vice versa.

If the dragon is killed then the holy city is destroyed and all disciple units of his are killed. The religion is not removed from cities but no longer spreads (and the spreading units can't be built)

So for the two dragon religions:
Gold-Shining Savior
Black-???

Start techs (also automatically give baby dragon)
Holy Creation
Holy Summoning (the black dragon was a summoning that became a religion)

Perhaps the kuriotates can never convert to the sheaim religion and vice versa.

If the dragon is killed then the holy city is destroyed and all disciple units of his are killed. The religion is not removed from cities but no longer spreads (and the spreading units can't be built)

Black - Destroyer of Worlds(fits well with the ambition of the Sheaim)

I'm not sure if they should start with the dragons and the religons. Building the dragon, and focusing on the dragon religion, should still be a choice the player can make. It would most likely be the best chocie to get the most out of your civilization, but I don't think he should be forced into the Dragon Cult playstyle if he doesn't want to. Perhaps the technologies could be placed a bit after Polytheism, so you could still grab them, and the dragon, reasonably early.
I don't think it should be restricted for the Kuriotates to become Black Dragon Cultists, in fact it could well be imagined that they would be compelled to do so after the death of their own dragon. Perhaps restricted while the dragon exists? And then also from picking any other religions as state religions? Perhaps the dragon leaves you if you do, and so will essentially be a religious hero.
I think the two religions should be mutually exclusive in the same city, like the Veil and the Order.

I like the idea of the dragon growing with the religion spread(it should obviously be scaled after map size in some way). It would also be possible to make it the other way around, so the religion grew in spread rate and bonuses as the dragon grew(for example, the possibility of Temple Upgrades would come at a late growth stage). But then there would still be the issue of growth. Perhaps the Gold dragon will grow through projects(requiring a good production base, which the Kuriotates will be likely to have), while the Black would instead grow by defeating enemies in combat, reaching a certain lvl of xp to grow? Barbarians shouldn't count. This would force the Black Dragon Cultists to play quite agressively, but on the flip side they'd be able to grow their dragon earlier than the Kuriotates through diligent use of the young dragon in battle.

Right now Im thinking about making the dragon cult a non-traditional religion. It would spread to cities like a normal religion but you couldn't set it as a state religion. Likewise it doesn't have priests and disciples, it may allow a few special units, but isnt on the same power level as the current religions. Its a "minor religion".

Instead it has some effects on the cities it spread too. Some good, some bad. There wouldn't be any missionaries so it would be spread by chance only. So it would become a religion largely beyond the players control. Some rogue influence in the empire.

The Kuriotate and the Sheaim would be the only ones who could truely benifit from the cults spread. They would be the only ones who could discover the religion and would therefor have the holy city. At this point Im thinking of having only 1 cult that worships all dragons (good or evil).

The reason i want 1 cult is that it is simpliar and easier to add. I also dont want to steal any of the flavor from the opposed order and veil religions by reusing the mechanic. Besides its entirely possible that the kuriotate could become evil and the sheaim good in a game, and if so the making of an "evil" and "good" cult wouldn't match.

But I need mechanics and ideas. I would like them to be a "cult" instead of a religion. A small group of fanatics. A few ideas:

1. Cities with a dragon cult in them are -25% city defense against dragons.

2. Kuriotate and Sheaim only wonder that increases the spread rate of the cult.

3. The Kuriotate can build a special unit in cities with the dragon cult, the Sheaim can build a different special unit. (Other civs don't have any access to the cults special units).

4. The cult preceeds the dragon.

5. When either of the 2 dragons i made every non-sheaim/non-kuriotate city with the dragon cult in it has a chance of flipping to the dragons civ equal to the percent of its population that is following the dragon cult.

6. If the holy city is destroyed the cult is removed form the game.

7. Need more mechanic ideas.

1. Cities with a dragon cult in them are -25% city defense against dragons.

2. Kuriotate and Sheaim only wonder that increases the spread rate of the cult.

3. The Kuriotate can build a special unit in cities with the dragon cult, the Sheaim can build a different special unit. (Other civs don't have any access to the cults special units).

4. The cult preceeds the dragon.

5. When either of the 2 dragons i made every non-sheaim/non-kuriotate city with the dragon cult in it has a chance of flipping to the dragons civ equal to the percent of its population that is following the dragon cult.

6. If the holy city is destroyed the cult is removed form the game.

7. Need more mechanic ideas.

Cults as a form of minor religions are interesting, might be useful in other cases than this one.

1. Makes sense.
2. Good idea. I'm wondering a bit about the spread, though. Will it be able to spread to cities with actual religions already in them, or do cities have to be "empty"? If not the religion should come quite early, so you don't already have fellowship or runes in all your cities by the time you get it.
How about giving a chance to spread the cult to any city conquered by either of the dragons?
3. Good. Can other civs still build Temples? I think they should be able to benefit at least a little from the cult, even if they don't get all the special stuff. Though, considering mechanic 5, it might be a very good idea to start mobilizing the Inquisition at the smallest sign of cult presence in either case.
4. Perhaps the tech it is tied to could be called "Prophecies of the Dragon" or something like that, to make it fit lore-wise. Awaiting the dragon, like other religions await a messiah. A later tech could then allow the dragon to be built.
5. Pretty cool mechanic, could be really powerful if used right. Would probably make a lot of human players very hesitant in regards to early Open Border deals with the Kuriotates or Sheaim.
6. Will the dragons leave too? What if the dragons are destroyed, will the cult still persist, awaiting a "Second Coming"?(perhaps there could be a possible, difficult and complicated, questline for that if a dragon died)

7. a) If there is only one cult, how will the relationship between Kuriotates and Sheaim be? I assume they'd still be mostly affected by respective alignments, as cults aren't state religions. But perhaps there should be some unifying aspects between the two civs as well, because both has a fascination of dragons.
b) I think I mentioned this before, but perhaps the presence of a dragon in a city with the dragon cult could grant a certain bonus, perhaps giving a smaller version of the God King-effect in that city/boost culture/increase defense bonus.
c) There is a literal ton of quest-potential in dragons, but that should probably be saved for later.

Cults as a form of minor religions are interesting, might be useful in other cases than this one.

1. Makes sense.
2. Good idea. I'm wondering a bit about the spread, though. Will it be able to spread to cities with actual religions already in them, or do cities have to be "empty"? If not the religion should come quite early, so you don't already have fellowship or runes in all your cities by the time you get it.
How about giving a chance to spread the cult to any city conquered by either of the dragons?

I may adjust the chance so that if the religion is a cult it is unaffected by other religions existance in the city as part of the spread chance. I would also adjust it so that real religions arent effected by cults.

And I agree that the cult will have to far proceed the dragon.

3. Good. Can other civs still build Temples? I think they should be able to benefit at least a little from the cult, even if they don't get all the special stuff. Though, considering mechanic 5, it might be a very good idea to start mobilizing the Inquisition at the smallest sign of cult presence in either case.

I would rather havign the cult spread into a city truely was a bad thing for a city. That way the mechanic becomes a strength of the kuriotate/sheaim civs and something they can work on without war (im always looking for fun activities for the players besides declaring war).

I had said that I wouldnt want missionary units for the cult, but in retrospect I think they may be nessesary for the kurio/sheaim. But their spread rate would be lower than for the other religions.

4. Perhaps the tech it is tied to could be called "Prophecies of the Dragon" or something like that, to make it fit lore-wise. Awaiting the dragon, like other religions await a messiah. A later tech could then allow the dragon to be built.

Sounds good.

5. Pretty cool mechanic, could be really powerful if used right. Would probably make a lot of human players very hesitant in regards to early Open Border deals with the Kuriotates or Sheaim.

6. Will the dragons leave too? What if the dragons are destroyed, will the cult still persist, awaiting a "Second Coming"?(perhaps there could be a possible, difficult and complicated, questline for that if a dragon died)

I wouldn't destroy the dragons. Im expecting that destorying the holy city would usually proceed the dragons coming. So the cult is founded and starts to spread. Players can either try to chase the religion out of their cities (which is hard to do until the late game) or put an end to it once and for all by destroying the holy city. It will give human players a nice goal to pursue before the holy city holder finishes his dragon.

7. a) If there is only one cult, how will the relationship between Kuriotates and Sheaim be? I assume they'd still be mostly affected by respective alignments, as cults aren't state religions. But perhaps there should be some unifying aspects between the two civs as well, because both has a fascination of dragons.

Keep in mind that in most games (which have randomly generated opponets) both civs won't exist in the same game.

From a practical aspect they both want ownership of the holy city, so there will be some conflict. I think through this as the play of a single player game. If he is playing the kuriotates and he is beaten to the cult holy city (which could come as a surprise as he may not even know the sheaim are in the game) he would definitly want to go take the city.

b) I think I mentioned this before, but perhaps the presence of a dragon in a city with the dragon cult could grant a certain bonus, perhaps giving a smaller version of the God King-effect in that city/boost culture/increase defense bonus.
c) There is a literal ton of quest-potential in dragons, but that should probably be saved for later.

Yeah, I could definitly see a dragon in a city that has the dragon cult giving a considerable boost to culture and a moderate productivity boost.

From a practical aspect they both want ownership of the holy city, so there will be some conflict. I think through this as the play of a single player game. If he is playing the kuriotates and he is beaten to the cult holy city (which could come as a surprise as he may not even know the sheaim are in the game) he would definitly want to go take the city.


Not that we cannot tell the AI to try the same if the Human gets the holy city...

BtW: We might want to change the religionspread functions, so that order cannot spread in veil cities and the other way (no longer that stupid has been removed..) and maybe we would like to add that a second religion can randomly spread into a city with a religion present. i checked it and for now only one religion will spread randomly. all others need missionarys (CvCity.cpp line ~9636)

Im working (design phase) on the AI values for the religions right now. What do you think. I would like to greatly reduce the chance that a civilization will switch away from their states religion. Furthermore i would like to reduce the chance of a civ to go into free religion (especially dependend on heros).

Not that we cannot tell the AI to try the same if the Human gets the holy city...

BtW: We might want to change the religionspread functions, so that order cannot spread in veil cities and the other way (no longer that stupid has been removed..) and maybe we would like to add that a second religion can randomly spread into a city with a religion present. i checked it and for now only one religion will spread randomly. all others need missionarys (CvCity.cpp line ~9636)

Im working (design phase) on the AI values for the religions right now. What do you think. I would like to greatly reduce the chance that a civilization will switch away from their states religion. Furthermore i would like to reduce the chance of a civ to go into free religion (especially dependend on heros).

I think its a good idea. I would like a prefered religion for the leaders, with the ability to set none (most civs would be none) and let the civ develop however. So if you make it I will definitly include it. Do keep in mind that we shouldnt spend to much time ai tuning at this point, since we are still changing significant elements of the game and should focus on things that directly impact the player. These ideas are good and arent at risk to become "obsolete" with later changes, but its just soemthing to consider.

Right now im really interested in interface and player options. They seem to have more bang for the buck. For example I really like your idea to consolidate the promotions, which I think all players will appreciate. Im working on a cannotPromote block that will make units unable to learn spheres that dont offer spells. Players will scream if they waste an upgrade on a sphere that doesn't gain them anything and it will be a pain for them to check the pedia every time. This will also keep the AI from wasting upgrades on worthless spheres.

I think its a good idea. I would like a prefered religion for the leaders, with the ability to set none (most civs would be none) and let the civ develop however. So if you make it I will definitly include it. Do keep in mind that we shouldnt spend to much time ai tuning at this point, since we are still changing significant elements of the game and should focus on things that directly impact the player. These ideas are good and arent at risk to become "obsolete" with later changes, but its just soemthing to consider.

Just some more sentences offtopic: I am best in things that make fun for me and i hate it when an AI makes obvious wrong descition. Thats why i really like the AI coding. Finally this is the first Civ that allows me to improve my enemies. And I feel a good AI as enemy makes the game much more fun, especially when adding a lot of features, as an added feature is often much more impressive, when the AI uses it against you than the other way round.
Its the oh f**k how did he do that. I want that, too, effect.

So i have a lot of plans for the AI in my head that will be coming out (and hopefully into FfH the next weeks). For example one thing will be teaching the AI to build the unit-prerequisite buildings in an effective way. I had often cripple an AI itself as they built hunter after hunter instead of Macemen as they had not built an barracks (due to continous war). Another thing is that i would really like to do is build an effective AI for the Mages and to teach the AI to play a bit more for Victory. All those changes will not become obsolete with the advancement of FfH and most of them will be reusable for other mods as well so i think the investet time will not be wasted. :)

Just some more sentences offtopic: I am best in things that make fun for me and i hate it when an AI makes obvious wrong descition. Thats why i really like the AI coding. Finally this is the first Civ that allows me to improve my enemies. And I feel a good AI as enemy makes the game much more fun, especially when adding a lot of features, as an added feature is often much more impressive, when the AI uses it against you than the other way round.
Its the oh f**k how did he do that. I want that, too, effect.

So i have a lot of plans for the AI in my head that will be coming out (and hopefully into FfH the next weeks). For example one thing will be teaching the AI to build the unit-prerequisite buildings in an effective way. I had often cripple an AI itself as they built hunter after hunter instead of Macemen as they had not built an barracks (due to continous war). Another thing is that i would really like to do is build an effective AI for the Mages and to teach the AI to play a bit more for Victory. All those changes will not become obsolete with the advancement of FfH and most of them will be reusable for other mods as well so i think the investet time will not be wasted. :)

Thats cool. When possible look for global solutions instead of specific ones and as little change as possible in the SDK. For example, rather than code that directs the AI when to build bilds I would prefer a dynamic AIWeight function that kicks out to a python function. If it hands the python function the city and the building it is considering we sould be able to use Python to make all of the determinations and pass back a more intellegent weight.

That should have a pretty minor dll footprint and allow us to tweak and ai balance to our hearts content without touching the dll (after the start).

I would go so far as to say that if a dynamic aiweight python routine was built into weightbuild, weighttrain, weightpromote and weightimprove (with cannotimprove and cannotpromote checks) I think you could release that alone as a modpack that a ton of modders would just love to have. And turn ai tweaking into a python function instead of an sdk function.

Im just thinking about AI changing religions.

It bases his descition on a number of points that is determined by number of cities, holy cities (and soon will inlcude heroes as well)
I would multiply this by an weightingfactor (100+Leaderhead weight Religion)
but that alone doen not prohibit that bannor converst to veil if the first city is infected with veil.

So i would add a second value that is added to the total number of ponts (or subtracted if negative) do -4 for example would mean that the Ai will convert only if there are at least 5 cities infected with the religion. Would you prefer to set two values per Ai or only one and calculate the second parameter from the first.

Eg for calculation of the second parameter: bannor (+60 Order -40 Veil) would mean that order counts as if it would have 6 cities more, and the final result would be multiplied by 1.6 whereas Veil would count 4 cities less and the result would be modified by 0.6.

Is that ok for you? Than i'll add it this evening. And submit the show promotions and this change.

Im just thinking about AI changing religions.

It bases his descition on a number of points that is determined by number of cities, holy cities (and soon will inlcude heroes as well)
I would multiply this by an weightingfactor (100+Leaderhead weight Religion)
but that alone doen not prohibit that bannor converst to veil if the first city is infected with veil.

So i would add a second value that is added to the total number of ponts (or subtracted if negative) do -4 for example would mean that the Ai will convert only if there are at least 5 cities infected with the religion. Would you prefer to set two values per Ai or only one and calculate the second parameter from the first.

Eg for calculation of the second parameter: bannor (+60 Order -40 Veil) would mean that order counts as if it would have 6 cities more, and the final result would be multiplied by 1.6 whereas Veil would count 4 cities less and the result would be modified by 0.6.

Is that ok for you? Than i'll add it this evening. And submit the show promotions and this change.

Ideally we would have a modifier based on the prefered religion, and a calculated modifier based on the alignment on the civ. We could hardcode this but the best way to do it is probably to add an alignment attribute to religions as we do for leaders, then compare those attributes.

So a civ would be -20 to a 1 step change (good to neutral) and -40 for a 2 step change (good to evil) in alignments.

Does alignment change excerpt when changing the religion (and does it when we change religion?)?

If not the AI values should make sure that the right choice for the next religion is made. If we added AI values and alignment values its kind of done double excerpt if you want a civ that was good at the beginning and then changed to veil be more probably to change to overlords afterwards than to change back to the good side for example to order.

Edit: ok found it. alignment changes with religion at last. if we add an alignment attribute to the religions (maybe -2 to 2) we could get rid of the hardcode for alignment changes on religion change, so i will add it.

Edit2: Maybe we even want to go away from the hardcoding of the spread events to and simply disallowing one religen with (-2/+2) Alignment to spread when there is a religion of (+2/-2) alignment present. That would allow to simply introduce further absolute evil and absolute good religions that are mutally exculsive.

Does alignment change excerpt when changing the religion (and does it when we change religion?)?

If not the AI values should make sure that the right choice for the next religion is made. If we added AI values and alignment values its kind of done double excerpt if you want a civ that was good at the beginning and then changed to veil be more probably to change to overlords afterwards than to change back to the good side for example to order.

Edit: ok found it. alignment changes with religion at last. if we add an alignment attribute to the religions (maybe -2 to 2) we could get rid of the hardcode for alignment changes on religion change, so i will add it.

I was going to remove the hardcode for religions anyway as soon as I can expose the getAlignment and setAlignment functions to python. Then I will just have the alignment change at the begining of the turn, at the same time when your cities all switch to the religion graphics.

Im still trying to grasp exposing functions to python but Im hoping that with the help Talchas gave I'll be able to do it tonight.

When we do it in python we will have to expose the religions alignment, too. Do we want this (do we need the religions alignment for other things as well?) or do we simply include the alignment change in the SDK (might be simpler and more secure if we don't need the religions alignment otherwise in python).

Note ive added a second edit above too while you were writing.

Edit2: Maybe we even want to go away from the hardcoding of the spread events to and simply disallowing one religen with (-2/+2) Alignment to spread when there is a religion of (+2/-2) alignment present. That would allow to simply introduce further absolute evil and absolute good religions that are mutally exculsive.

Perfect! Thats a much better way to handle it.

When we do it in python we will have to expose the religions alignment, too. Do we want this (do we need the religions alignment for other things as well?) or do we simply include the alignment change in the SDK (might be simpler and more secure if we don't need the religions alignment otherwise in python).

Note ive added a second edit above too while you were writing.

At this point I don't see any reason to have the religions alignment in python.

So the code is working, the Alignment changes and not allowing to spread a religion, as well as the different weights for religions based on Leaderhead Weights and Alignment are all in. Furthermore relgious heroes in service are considered before changing the statereligion right now about as valueable as 20-30 population for tier 3 heroes.

I made it so that you could define different pairs of good evil religions. So all good religion with alignment 2 will prohibit bad rligins with alignment -2. Good religions with alignment 3 will not influcence evil religions with alignment -2 but those with alignment -3. For the Alignment change all religions (with +-2 or higher are equal through.)

One more thing. Do you want to change the spread possibility based on the existent religions? So that Veil will improve the chance to spread overlords (Alignment difference 1) and reduce the chance for kilmorph (strong) (Alignment difference 3) and fellowship (a bit difference 2). Same thing for states religion? As we have the iAlignment parameter for religions we might as well use it ;)

Unfortunately i have no time left to post the code so you'll have to wait until tomorrow (or here its already until later today ;) )

So the code is working, the Alignment changes and not allowing to spread a religion, as well as the different weights for religions based on Leaderhead Weights and Alignment are all in. Furthermore relgious heroes in service are considered before changing the statereligion right now about as valueable as 20-30 population for tier 3 heroes.

Woot!

I made it so that you could define different pairs of good evil religions. So all good religion with alignment 2 will prohibit bad rligins with alignment -2. Good religions with alignment 3 will not influcence evil religions with alignment -2 but those with alignment -3. For the Alignment change all religions (with +-2 or higher are equal through.)

One more thing. Do you want to change the spread possibility based on the existent religions? So that Veil will improve the chance to spread overlords (Alignment difference 1) and reduce the chance for kilmorph (strong) (Alignment difference 3) and fellowship (a bit difference 2). Same thing for states religion? As we have the iAlignment parameter for religions we might as well use it ;)

No, spreading overlords should be as likely as runes in an order city or civ.

All the better that means no additional coding work ;)

Put the Cult of the Dragon in tonight. I gave it the following abilities:

1. Players cannot select it as a state religion.
2. Non-disciple living units built in a city with the cult in it have a 20% chance of gettign the "Cult of the Dragon"promotion.
3. The Cult of the Dragon reduces a cities culture by 1 per turn (this does not effect the Kuriotates or Sheaim). This could destroy small cities.
4. A unit with the Cult of the Dragon promotion who is in a tile owned by Cult holy city has a 5% (maybe 2%) per turn chance of converting and joining the cult hopy city civ.

Also when dragons come in units with the Cult of the Dragon will automatically convert to them if they are near.

Sound good?

Sound good?

Yes, that sounds fine. What about the chance for all cities with Cult of the Dragon in them to convert to either Kuriotates or Sheaim when a dragon is born?

We also need the unique cultist units for Kuriotates and Sheaim. Some ideas:

Kuriotates unit = Disciple of the Dragon
National unit(3 allowed). Upgrade from Prophet.
Strength 9
Has access to Fire Divine and Creation Divine magic.
+50% strength when the Gold Dragon is nearby.
Can ride the dragon?
Can call the dragon to their location?

Sheaim unit = Speaker of the Dragon
National unit(3 allowed). Upgrade from Prophet.
Strength 5
Has access to Fire Divine, Entropy Divine and Dimensional Sorcery magic.
Extra Spell Extension and Combat promotions when the Black Dragon is nearby
Acess to special spells while standing in the same tile as the dragon?
Can ride the dragon?
Can call the dragon to their location?

Why would a dragon let a silly mortal ride them? Maybe instead they get a strength bonus when near the dragon.

Yes, that sounds fine. What about the chance for all cities with Cult of the Dragon in them to convert to either Kuriotates or Sheaim when a dragon is born?

We also need the unique cultist units for Kuriotates and Sheaim. Some ideas:

Kuriotates unit = Disciple of the Dragon
National unit(3 allowed). Upgrade from Prophet.
Strength 9
Has access to Fire Divine and Creation Divine magic.
+50% strength when the Gold Dragon is nearby.
Can ride the dragon?
Can call the dragon to their location?

Sheaim unit = Speaker of the Dragon
National unit(3 allowed). Upgrade from Prophet.
Strength 5
Has access to Fire Divine, Entropy Divine and Dimensional Sorcery magic.
Extra Spell Extension and Combat promotions when the Black Dragon is nearby
Acess to special spells while standing in the same tile as the dragon?
Can ride the dragon?
Can call the dragon to their location?

I opted for the unit conversion instead of the city conversion. It seemed like a less frustrating mechanic, and was less swingy than city flips. I also liked players looking suspiosuly at their cult of the dragon archmages and it seemed to match, they arent "bad" units, but a little untrustworthy. Perfect for cult membership.

But then why would the Player ever build the cultists?

But then why would the Player ever build the cultists?

He won't. Any living non-disciple unit produced in a city that have the cult has a 20% chance of automatically gaining the "Cult of the Dragon" promotion.

He won't. Any living non-disciple unit produced in a city that have the cult has a 20% chance of automatically gaining the "Cult of the Dragon" promotion.

Wow and i was just about to suggest something like this...:goodjob:

Would it be possible to have a good/neutral religion in the mod that isn't totalitarian or race related, say worshipping Tali, Danalin or Oghma?

Would it be possible to have a good/neutral religion in the mod that isn't totalitarian or race related, say worshipping Tali, Danalin or Oghma?

No firm plans for that, the one we have been considering is a religion for Lugus, the god of the Sun. That may come in "Shadow" (with an opposing religion for Esus). But thats pretty far down the line, there won't be any new religions in "Light".

What would you think of religions working as culture - with percentages - instead of just a boolean present/not-present?

What would you think of religions working as culture - with percentages - instead of just a boolean present/not-present?

It sounds like it adds complexity without making the game more fun. What is the "drool factor" for the new mechanic?

Hmm, come to think of it, yeah for FfH this indeed wouldn't add anything. I was just thinking this would be better in general to avoid the silly fact in standard Civ4 that the more religions the better. However in FfH it already is bad to have multiple religions of course.

Okay, my logic is that since I normally play as Ke-nan in Ffh 1 and will probably play Lanun or Hippus in 2, that none of the religions seem like a good fit for nomads or pirates.

I think that the Dragon cult is a little too weak.

A couple of modifications-
a) reduces by 2 culture instead of one. It is nearly impossible to find a city without culture unless it was just founded.
b) If a unit with cult of the dragon is in teh same square or one adjacent to a dragon, it has a 5% chance to flip to that dragon's civilization. This works even if that dragon is not owned by the controller of the dragon holy city. This even works for the Barb dragon.
c) the sheiam and kuriotates can adopt the cult of the dragon as their state religion.
d) 100% of the units built in the dragon holy city are part of the cult. Doesn't really matter except that if the holy city changes hands they might as well.

I think that the Dragon cult is a little too weak.

A couple of modifications-
a) reduces by 2 culture instead of one. It is nearly impossible to find a city without culture unless it was just founded.

Will do.

b) If a unit with cult of the dragon is in teh same square or one adjacent to a dragon, it has a 5% chance to flip to that dragon's civilization. This works even if that dragon is not owned by the controller of the dragon holy city. This even works for the Barb dragon.

All dragons have a roar ability. That convets 100% of the untis within 1 tile to the dragons civ if they are cult members.

c) the sheiam and kuriotates can adopt the cult of the dragon as their state religion.

It would be a sucky state religion that shouldnt be anywhere near the power level of the "real" religions. So even if we made it able to be a state religion, why would anyone want to do it (we would just be weakning the ai).

d) 100% of the units built in the dragon holy city are part of the cult. Doesn't really matter except that if the holy city changes hands they might as well.

Game effect of this is pretty minor. Im going to skip it for now (just a lot to juggle at the moment) but keep it in mind and we might add it later.

Question: what is the effect of slaying the dragon? Does that make the cultists disappear, or revolt, or convert, or possibly join your team (after all, you ARE stronger than their god) - a dragon-slayer unit that had the same effect as the dragon could be interesting...

In any case, there would have to be some strong incentive to go forth and kick draconic ass, regardless of alignment.

Some more dragon ideas:
Much faster spread-It doesn't seem to spread at all. And since there are no missionary units...

There needs to be "cultist" units producable in the holy city.

The holy city gives a large bonus to encourage the owner to spread the religion. Not just +1 gold per city, but like +2 gold, +2 culture, +1 science, +1 GPP.

Question: what is the effect of slaying the dragon? Does that make the cultists disappear, or revolt, or convert, or possibly join your team (after all, you ARE stronger than their god) - a dragon-slayer unit that had the same effect as the dragon could be interesting...

In any case, there would have to be some strong incentive to go forth and kick draconic ass, regardless of alignment.

Maybe the civilization with the dragon get riots in all their city? ANd the holy city is DESTROYED. (note that only happens if all three dragons are destroyed)

It would be a sucky state religion that shouldnt be anywhere near the power level of the "real" religions. So even if we made it able to be a state religion, why would anyone want to do it (we would just be weakning the ai).

Then make it only available to the players. This way i can get the bonuses from the civic's that have to do with religion and still only have the cult of the dragon in my cities so that Religious Education works.
I would definetly convert any game i am playing as the Sheaim or Kuriotates.

Bright day
Conquering cult cities is major pain in the bottom. You are at first going to waste severeal prophets :(. So please don't overdo it.

And I read in the othe thread how you are trying to differate religion by nation. PLease don't overdo it. If I am eevil vampire I will need a lot effort right now to convince neutrals to switch to veil. In my last game I had -4 heathen, -2 close borders and -2 Eevil mods from Lanuuns. I had to give them even my undergarments to have them switch.

Bright day
Conquering cult cities is major pain in the bottom. You are at first going to waste severeal prophets :(. So please don't overdo it.

And I read in the othe thread how you are trying to differate religion by nation. PLease don't overdo it. If I am eevil vampire I will need a lot effort right now to convince neutrals to switch to veil. In my last game I had -4 heathen, -2 close borders and -2 Eevil mods from Lanuuns. I had to give them even my undergarments to have them switch.

I agree with you 100%. Any of these mechanics overdone can spoil the flavor. I love the fact that you can turn the Elohim evil or the Sheaim good so I definitly want to keep that.

What we were talking about in the other thread was the ability to set some leaders to prefer a specific religion. We would only do it on a handful of leaders. Maybe just: Hyborem would prefer the Veil, Arendel would prefer the Fellowship, Sabathiel would prefer the Order, Hannah would prefer the Overlords and Arturus would prefer the Runes.

If we do do it hopefully we add an XML value that lets you set how much they prefer it so we can make them play a little differently from each other without making it impossible to convert them.

I agree with you

Oh okay then :D

Making the dragon cult promotion invisible could make things interesting when attacking the dragon cult empire and the dragon itself.

Or giving a promotion that hides whever or not the unit has the actual dragon cult promotion (like how you plan to hide lvl 1 & 2 'fire' if a unit has lvl 3), if this is easier to programme.

Making the dragon cult promotion invisible could make things interesting when attacking the dragon cult empire and the dragon itself.

Or giving a promotion that hides whever or not the unit has the actual dragon cult promotion (like how you plan to hide lvl 1 & 2 'fire' if a unit has lvl 3), if this is easier to programme.

That would probably be confusing to casual players.

Are any other Cult religions planned? Doing another with culture draining would be pointless and annoying, but other drawbacks could be used. Here's an idea for a cult:
Call of Anarchy--Can only be founded in barb cities or civs with barb trait.
If barbarians/minor tribes can't research to found religions, randomly assign it if there is a barb city >2 around turn 100-150.
Any city it spreads to gets gets 1 science siphoned off each turn. When enough science has been drained this way, the barbs will be able to build a special unit/wonder (provided they have any cities left at this point). Something cool but dangerous, like an undead Orthus :D
Melee units built in cities with this cult may gain cult of Anarchy promotion, have 50% chance to become barbs after killing other barbarians (unless they have loyalty promotion)

Are any other Cult religions planned? Doing another with culture draining would be pointless and annoying, but other drawbacks could be used.
I wouldn't want to have multiple cults to worry about. One cult is annoying enough, and as far as I know all possibilities to get rid of it destroy other non-state religions as well. I don't want to rebuild my temples of kilmorph every X turns in every city, so usually the cult will stay in the cities it spreads to. There's nothing wrong with that, mind you, as it should be an annoyance; I just wouldn't like cults to become a major problem. A culture and research malus in every city might be too much.

Well, don't want to just annoy people, but the cult idea is cool, and I think 1 or maybe 2 more could be added if the spread rate on each was proportionally lowered. Their are no cult missionaries to deal with.

No new cults or religions are needed if you ask me, we should instead concentrate on improving that which we already have...
Going overkill whit this is generaly not a good idea...

On a completely unnrelated note, shouldn't the fellowship have a unique combat disciple at at tiers 3 and 4, rather than none at tier 3 and both Paladins and Eidolons at tier 4? What kind of nature religion uses undead super-soldiers and goons in full plate? Or could Fellowship at least get a different skin on thier pallies and a Tier 3, because it's not fun having to train new big guns at that point in the game.

A quick question, Fellowship, Runes, etc. all have truly religious sounding names. "Octopus Overlords", to put it bluntly, doesn't. The religion is cool, but the name just sounds...lame.

Why not something like "Overlords of the Deep"? Or something along those lines?

I guess it's the "Octopus" that throws me.

A quick question, Fellowship, Runes, etc. all have truly religious sounding names. "Octopus Overlords", to put it bluntly, doesn't. The religion is cool, but the name just sounds...lame.

Why not something like "Overlords of the Deep"? Or something along those lines?

I guess it's the "Octopus" that throws me.

Kael took it from an existing... errm... eh, well something existing anyways. And to add, Overlords kindof makes it sound like the gods that are worshiped...

He took it from here:
www.octopusoverlords.com (http://www.octopusoverlords.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21750)

I was thinking that the owner of the cult of the dragon holy city should be able to see whats happening in other civs cities where the cult has spread. The other religions do this and I just think it makes sense that the cult members would report back to home about the goings on in their cities.

A quick question, Fellowship, Runes, etc. all have truly religious sounding names. "Octopus Overlords", to put it bluntly, doesn't. The religion is cool, but the name just sounds...lame.

Why not something like "Overlords of the Deep"? Or something along those lines?

I guess it's the "Octopus" that throws me.

Yeah its the only religion that didn't exist in the D&D game, and the only name I didn't make up. But its a tribute to my OO'er friends and although I agree that it doesn't quite match the rest I don't think its a particuraly bad name so it probably won't change unless the team members mount an effort to change it.

I was thinking that the owner of the cult of the dragon holy city should be able to see whats happening in other civs cities where the cult has spread. The other religions do this and I just think it makes sense that the cult members would report back to home about the goings on in their cities.

I think he can. Am I wrong?

You are wrong. He only can look into cities if it is his state religion...

You are wrong. He only can look into cities if it is his state religion...

Ahh.. makes sense.

Yeah its the only religion that didn't exist in the D&D game, and the only name I didn't make up. But its a tribute to my OO'er friends and although I agree that it doesn't quite match the rest I don't think its a particuraly bad name so it probably won't change unless the team members mount an effort to change it.

If you wanted you could make a summoning ritual for every civ at the end of the game (like spare race). OO would summon the Octopus Overlords, which then become a unit (and change the OO religion name)...

I am playing a noble game as Bannor with The Order as my religion, 2 of my cities and 1 druid have been infected by the Cult of the Dragon. The wonder for removing this has already been built. I finally got to divine right and upgraded a confessor into an inquisitor. But the inquisitor is unable to start an inquisition in either of the cities. Am I able to do this? or am I missing something? or is my only alternative to track down the holy city and raze it?

I am playing a noble game as Bannor with The Order as my religion, 2 of my cities and 1 druid have been infected by the Cult of the Dragon. The wonder for removing this has already been built. I finally got to divine right and upgraded a confessor into an inquisitor. But the inquisitor is unable to start an inquisition in either of the cities. Am I able to do this? or am I missing something? or is my only alternative to track down the holy city and raze it?

Inquisition is broke in 0.12. It is fixed in 0.13. For now you should go into the worldbuilder and take the religion off of your cities (as long as you have inq's its not cheating). :)

Thanks for the quick reply. Guess I am stuck as I am playing a hotseat game and worldbuilder is not available. First try at FFH@ and it has been a fun game so far.

Thanks for the quick reply. Guess I am stuck as I am playing a hotseat game and worldbuilder is not available. First try at FFH@ and it has been a fun game so far.

Glad you are enjoying it. The fixes in 0.13 are here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=171497 and the Inquisition fix is included. Sorry for the inconvienance.

Are we going to see any new religions by the next major component? There just isn't any religion that feels fully Good at all. Seriously, I thought that the Order was neutral, Leaves partly good and Runes good the first time I played. It's like good players have to choose between the Spanish Inquestion(sp) and Dwarves.

There is nothing remotely in-theme for any good civ except Bannor or Luchuip. The Malakim should probably have a Church of Lugus integrated into the civ, since they are defined in large part as a civ by their religion. It comes with philosophy, but only the Malkim can found it and the holy city is always thier capital? The Mercurians and Illians should probably get cult-type religions since thier both blatantly defying the gods and have powerful immortal leaders, perfect material for a cult of personality with power to back it up and certainly not suitable for a standard faith to support. Both the evil religions feel kind of, cerebral, and not at all like the Clan of Embers or Dovellio's style.

Are we going to see any new religions by the next major component? There just isn't any religion that feels fully Good at all. Seriously, I thought that the Order was neutral, Leaves partly good and Runes good the first time I played. It's like good players have to choose between the Spanish Inquestion(sp) and Dwarves.

There is nothing remotely in-theme for any good civ except Bannor or Luchuip. The Malakim should probably have a Church of Lugus integrated into the civ, since they are defined in large part as a civ by their religion. It comes with philosophy, but only the Malkim can found it and the holy city is always thier capital? The Mercurians and Illians should probably get cult-type religions since thier both blatantly defying the gods and have powerful immortal leaders, perfect material for a cult of personality with power to back it up and certainly not suitable for a standard faith to support. Both the evil religions feel kind of, cerebral, and not at all like the Clan of Embers or Dovellio's style.

I wouldn't mind more religions but they are a lot of work and not the area of focus for the mod right now. In "Light" we are concentrating on getting the civ's and spell systems working and adding another religion isn't on the plate right now. Thats one aspect of the game that we are pretty happy with, other areas need more work.

That said there are 19 major religions in the FfH world and only 4 are represented in the mod so far. So we have plenty of room to grow when we are ready to. The next religions I could imagine adding (and this may change) are the worship of Lugus (Sun) and Esus (Shadow) and those may be added in "Shadow". We probably won't be adding a religion in "Fire", though the worship of Bhall (Fire) would be fitting.

Are we going to see any new religions by the next major component? There just isn't any religion that feels fully Good at all. Seriously, I thought that the Order was neutral, Leaves partly good and Runes good the first time I played. It's like good players have to choose between the Spanish Inquestion(sp) and Dwarves.


"Dark Fantasy" is the theme of the mod. Nobody is entirely pure, when it really comes down to it.

yeah you are missing a god thats war torn it seems theirs not a good fighting evil good you have the evil arcane god and the evil Octopi but those dont seem good for some of the darker non magic races

yeah you are missing a god thats war torn it seems theirs not a good fighting evil good you have the evil arcane god and the evil Octopi but those dont seem good for some of the darker non magic races

The first post has all of the deities in it, there are definitly quite a few that arent implemented.

Hello,

I just wanted to say that you actually have 7 religions. The 7th flies under the radar though...paganism. I think it would be cool if it was a little more fleshed out in future versions, the starting religion that is. Call it the old ways, or just keep it paganism. It would be cool if some like Doviello had to keep the pagan/Old Ways religion though, to achieve max effect. Maybe a couple of different versions...ie pagan leaves, pagan runes, etc...but that's a little much. Just a fleshing out of what is this starting religion would be cool, something that fits your story line of course. The darker aspects of druidism/wicca would be a good place to draw ideas, I think.

I don't know what your plan with the tech tree in .13 will be. It might eliminate the above comments if the current religions become starting religions.

Here's the thing...After the time of Ice, there must have been religion/gods? Why would that religion be weaker/less important than the later game ones? Were the gods not there? Maybe just like people started worshipping dragons there is some sort of Earth spirit that became a god during this time? Maybe it just doesn't offer things that more advanced civs would want. (city limitations, limit on city growth...etc...)

Other options:

1. We could make it fixed by the Civ and disallow religions that don't match the civs starting alignment (the Bannor could never follow the Veil, the Sheaim could never worship Kilmorph, etc).

2. Alignment is set by the Civ and independant of the religion, such that the Bannor can worship the Veil and still remain good.

I tend to prefer the origional recommendation, but what do you guys think?
I am thinking of starting a thread to discuss my idea but basically I think that races should have bonuses if they chose to follow a particular religion. E.g. Bannor military units gain extra strength if the state religion is Order, Luchuirp and Khazad get extra trade/financial incentives if their state religion is Runes, Ljosalfar and Svartalfar gain +1 happiness and +1 health in a city with a forest/jungle tile*, etc. This would encourage, but not force, certain civs to follow certain religions - however they are free to convert to any religion they choose but usually this would be a disadvantage.


* Or allows Ljosalfar and Svartalfar access to treeshapers workshop when state religion is Leaves (see Kerrang's post http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4195622&postcount=15 )

@Bad Player: Actually we want to do the same thing in a more subtle way. The only religion where it is quite obvious is the fellowship of the leaves. The Elves get bonus in forests and the fellowship of the leaves give bonus to forests as well (ancient forests). this way an elven civ is more powerfull when following the leaves.
For the Kahzad one could imagine to give them a special kind of mines that give +1 gold compared to normal mines or allow them to built mines every where (hmm thats actually a good idea). If now the mines would give additional boni whith the runes the dwarfs would be encouraged doubly to built mines and get the boni, but each half (race and religion) are worthy without the other.

I am thinking of starting a thread to discuss my idea but basically I think that races should have bonuses if they chose to follow a particular religion. E.g. Bannor military units gain extra strength if the state religion is Order, Luchuirp and Khazad get extra trade/financial incentives if their state religion is Runes, Ljosalfar and Svartalfar gain +1 happiness and +1 health in a city with a forest/jungle tile*, etc. This would encourage, but not force, certain civs to follow certain religions - however they are free to convert to any religion they choose but usually this would be a disadvantage.


* Or allows Ljosalfar and Svartalfar access to treeshapers workshop when state religion is Leaves (see Kerrang's post http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4195622&postcount=15 )

In general when you create to much synergy between two options you effectivly remove one of the options. A game that offers 1 good option and 2 bad ones isnt offering any option at all (its offering a "noob trap", which is to say something that punishes new players over experienced ones).

So we try to keep the synergy's down to flavor aspects only because in general we want th eplayer to be able to pick any civ and any religion and have it be a viable option.

Of course the Ljosalfar and the Fellowship break this rule in a huge way. I don't think anyone plays the elves in any religion except the Fellowship, which is a shame. Effectivly they read as only having one religion available to them. But the synergy between them is so natural that I doubt we will change it. One case where the strong flavor will probably override good design.

But it might be beneficial to not choose the obvious race-religion choice if you can team up with a powerful set of allies by converting to their religion.

EDIT: I can see it might get repetitive if the bonuses for race-religion is too large so people always choose the same thing.

Black - Destroyer of Worlds(fits well with the ambition of the Sheaim)

I'm not sure if they should start with the dragons and the religons. Building the dragon, and focusing on the dragon religion, should still be a choice the player can make. It would most likely be the best chocie to get the most out of your civilization, but I don't think he should be forced into the Dragon Cult playstyle if he doesn't want to. Perhaps the technologies could be placed a bit after Polytheism, so you could still grab them, and the dragon, reasonably early.
I don't think it should be restricted for the Kuriotates to become Black Dragon Cultists, in fact it could well be imagined that they would be compelled to do so after the death of their own dragon. Perhaps restricted while the dragon exists? And then also from picking any other religions as state religions? Perhaps the dragon leaves you if you do, and so will essentially be a religious hero.
I think the two religions should be mutually exclusive in the same city, like the Veil and the Order.

I like the idea of the dragon growing with the religion spread(it should obviously be scaled after map size in some way). It would also be possible to make it the other way around, so the religion grew in spread rate and bonuses as the dragon grew(for example, the possibility of Temple Upgrades would come at a late growth stage). But then there would still be the issue of growth. Perhaps the Gold dragon will grow through projects(requiring a good production base, which the Kuriotates will be likely to have), while the Black would instead grow by defeating enemies in combat, reaching a certain lvl of xp to grow? Barbarians shouldn't count. This would force the Black Dragon Cultists to play quite agressively, but on the flip side they'd be able to grow their dragon earlier than the Kuriotates through diligent use of the young dragon in battle.
Just wanted to say from a fan's POV that this post and the next few after it are great ideas for the cult of the dragon IMO.:goodjob:

i been thinking of the gods and think the enxt three gods should be one good one neutral and one evil

for good i think sucellus since they are so much a part of the story

for neutral i think Oghma is the best of the lot a knowledge god would rule for the magic races though Ceridwen can also fit the role but they are evil

and for evil i think it should be either Camulos or Aeron giving a good evil god for the fighting non magic races.

I updated the first post with the theme music for each of the religions, inlcuding the new theme for the Cult of the Dragon.

You said FfH world has 19 religions total. Mow, I suppose some of them are race-specific, like orc etc.
Its just a religion worshipping each of the 21 gods. In the D&D game the religion varied from country to country, so Bhall was worshipped by the Orcs as the goddess of slaughter but in Braduk she was still worshipped in her ancient aspect as the queen of light.

So that wouldn't translate very well into a civ4 model. I'' try to add a list of each of the gods so you can get a feel for each of them.

So what I thought is to make them 'pagan' religions. Basicaly race specific temples, gained by tech which allows pagan temples. As long as you stay in paganism and without state religion you would be able to build those temples (Only 1 per city and probably restriced by race) with each providing minor bonuses (from happiness and culture to minor xp boost)
Just something to consider for future versions, religon is good now, but this would add flavor and efficiency (Alowing clan of embers some pagan temples which are very efficient, giving you opportunity to stay in paganism for long and avoid religion rush, but leaving you weak later on? and so on...)

I guess it might be nice for flavor if there was a Civ for each relgion that clearly benefitted from being that religion (but other Civs would work just fine in any religion).

Bannor-Order --- Perhaps some sort of super-Crusade ability?
Khazad-Runes --- Increased gold from mines, more chance of discovering resources?
Ljosalfar-Fellowship --- I think you've done plenty here.
Lanun-Overlords --- Octopus units that spawn to defend coastal cities, more gold from water tiles?
Infernals-Veil --- Some sort of research bonus to counter the BAR penalty? Early and easy access to Hell?

On a side note, I think Octopus Overlords is a fine name, if a bit cultish-sounding. I like the concept behind it (a god's dreams driving some demi-deific creatures insane).

On another side note (edit: not really), what if the Sun and Shadow worshippers alignments were switched? Perhaps the Sun religion could emphasize the Sun's merciless aspects, the way it destroys and desolates the unprotected lands it looks down upon, seeking to bring the world into an opposite crisis as the Age of Ice. The Shadow religion could emphasize the fact that darkness can be a sanctuary for those who wish to remain undesturbed and peaceful. This would also work as a pretext for another idea I thought I'd pose:

Almost-scripted alignment switches. Imagine the Malakim discovering an evil sun-worshipping religion, and suddenly going from Good to Evil. The balance of the continent they were on would be thrown into flux, and some very interesting events could happen. Imagine the Svartalfar discovering a good shadow revering religion, and the same thing happening. It would be a curveball flavor-wise, but I've always liked the idea of a Civ favoring a religion opposite its alignment. What do you think?

Suggestion:

Add an attack bonus (better yet, a defense reduction) when attacking citys with your state religion if it is not also theirs. Bonus scaled by what fraction the religion is in the city. [50% * 1/(#ofReligions) {50,25,17,13,10,8} ]
This would symbolize the help given to you by citizens who prefer you to their 'heathen' leaders.
This would turn religion into an active weapon to use in prepairing for a conquest. Send in a few missionarys to the border citys you have your eye on; but if you send in too many they may convert and you wouldn't get any bonus.

But don't give the bonus to scorched earth nations, as those in the city would know that they won't benefit when conquered even if they have the same religion.


Now, the agnostic would not benefit from this as is, but if it is wanted that they have this mechanic too, the bonus could work backwards for them. not requireing their state religion (obviouly) but when attacking a non-agnostic civ with a national religion they get a bonus for the small agnostic following present in the city. too many religions causes confusion and disillusionment in people. 0,1,2 religions= no bonus, 3=10%, 4=20%,5=30%,6=50%

I guess it might be nice for flavor if there was a Civ for each relgion that clearly benefitted from being that religion (but other Civs would work just fine in any religion).

Bannor-Order --- Perhaps some sort of super-Crusade ability?
Khazad-Runes --- Increased gold from mines, more chance of discovering resources?
Ljosalfar-Fellowship --- I think you've done plenty here.
Lanun-Overlords --- Octopus units that spawn to defend coastal cities, more gold from water tiles?
Infernals-Veil --- Some sort of research bonus to counter the BAR penalty? Early and easy access to Hell?

On a side note, I think Octopus Overlords is a fine name, if a bit cultish-sounding. I like the concept behind it (a god's dreams driving some demi-deific creatures insane).

On another side note (edit: not really), what if the Sun and Shadow worshippers alignments were switched? Perhaps the Sun religion could emphasize the Sun's merciless aspects, the way it destroys and desolates the unprotected lands it looks down upon, seeking to bring the world into an opposite crisis as the Age of Ice. The Shadow religion could emphasize the fact that darkness can be a sanctuary for those who wish to remain undesturbed and peaceful. This would also work as a pretext for another idea I thought I'd pose:

Almost-scripted alignment switches. Imagine the Malakim discovering an evil sun-worshipping religion, and suddenly going from Good to Evil. The balance of the continent they were on would be thrown into flux, and some very interesting events could happen. Imagine the Svartalfar discovering a good shadow revering religion, and the same thing happening. It would be a curveball flavor-wise, but I've always liked the idea of a Civ favoring a religion opposite its alignment. What do you think?
Are you working for the Sci-Fi or Horror Film industry? I like the idea but :hmm: ...could such a group benefit from deserts and produce specialized Cacti Farms and grow Giant Cacti Forests and we need really dangerous snakes too.....rattlers, mambas,sidewinders especially.......hey even the Cult of the Dragon could use snakes....and good Shadow.......a shasy oasis for rest and recuperation after a hot day in the feild.......:hmm: Hey, potentially they could even be from the same Civ.......maybe without conflict within the civ.........:wow:

Cacti forests... do you work for the Sci-Fi industry yourself? Maybe they could spawn cactus beasts (:D) like treants, and perhaps make deserts viable yield tiles. Heh, I love playing the Malakim, they're my favorite Civ.

Maybe some sort of a shadowed vale could show up in these good-shadow religion lands, with increased heal rate, invisibility, and maybe the ability to withdraw from an attack (like Loki) when they're resting there. I would hope that these religions wouldn't be restricted to the Malakim and Svartalfar, but they should probably only be able to be founded by them.

Cacti forests... do you work for the Sci-Fi industry yourself? Maybe they could spawn cactus beasts (:D) like treants, and perhaps make deserts viable yield tiles. Heh, I love playing the Malakim, they're my favorite Civ.

Maybe some sort of a shadowed vale could show up in these good-shadow religion lands, with increased heal rate, invisibility, and maybe the ability to withdraw from an attack (like Loki) when they're resting there. I would hope that these religions wouldn't be restricted to the Malakim and Svartalfar, but they should probably only be able to be founded by them.
squeeze fruit...remove pulp or leave it........add ICE.........drink beverage or use it to sauce main dish:D .....I think its dinner time.......analogy.....i live through analogy.......the prigles can is your friend....get x-fire now!......damn hypogleicemic reactons!

I wasn't being sarcastic.....I've seen a star trek next generation that your suggestion reminds me of thats all...........and it looks like a pretty damn good idea too...........I've been broke down in the desert before and had to walk with little rations thank god for natives with believe it or not sweat lodges and of course water...........too much water will kill even faster than not enough in the heat....

and yes Cacti are on of the best sources of water in the desert and some cacti are delectible.....nice dish for the cook!

Cacti forests... do you work for the Sci-Fi industry yourself? Maybe they could spawn cactus beasts (:D) like treants, and perhaps make deserts viable yield tiles. Heh, I love playing the Malakim, they're my favorite Civ.

Maybe some sort of a shadowed vale could show up in these good-shadow religion lands, with increased heal rate, invisibility, and maybe the ability to withdraw from an attack (like Loki) when they're resting there. I would hope that these religions wouldn't be restricted to the Malakim and Svartalfar, but they should probably only be able to be founded by them.
do you mean as imposters or just hiding out?

Probably just hiding.

I look forward to whatever methods the team will devise for synergizing the Malakim and their deserts. Seems like the team will have the same dilemma here as they're probably facing with the dwarves and the elves: they want to make the Malakim strengthened by deserts, but they don't want their playstyle to only be good in deserts.

Probably just hiding.

I look forward to whatever methods the team will devise for synergizing the Malakim and their deserts. Seems like the team will have the same dilemma here as they're probably facing with the dwarves and the elves: they want to make the Malakim strengthened by deserts, but they don't want their playstyle to only be good in deserts.
well improvements in deserts would give that 1st level fire a new use and a sandstorm spell too.....sandlions are cool but......there definitely needs to be alot more.......glass production maybe..........and units that can utilize such matterials.....

Hmm... maybe a Malakim Hero that gets stronger the more desert tiles that there are in the world? :lol: Malakim adepts turning the world to desert in preparation for their Angel of light. Doesn't sound all that good, but an interesting mechanic.

Actually that sounds like an interesting mechanism that works with Bloom and the desert version of bloom (can't remember name). It would be cool if elves got bonuses for every forest in the world (or perhaps even a hero gets a bonus for every 10 forests in the world etc), malakim got a bonus for every desert in the world, Lanun got a bonus for every water tile in the world etc.

Sounds like an interesting Avatar power. Avatar of the god of nature would get bonus's based on the amount of forests, etc.

There could also be an evil avatar unit gaining a bonus for the number of defiled tiles in the world. Then the player would really have to work for its power, turning the world into a wasteland to make it near invincible.

Does anybody think that there should be a least a religous spread to the influence area of the local city before the avatar can get power from there?

Otherwise avatars could get power where a few other deities claim sole power so........I guess what I am saying is the Spiral tower and inquisitions as well as throwing low level priests at others cities starts to make more sense so the avatar has a larger base of power and the other avatars powers are repressed or attempting a repression by civs with opposing beliefs......

Also liberal religion civic becomes double edged this way........and building temples for a little benefit could have disasterous side effects...

Seamo75's post in the main FFH2 thread suggested something similar to inspire this from me:

Religions can only be founded under specific circumstances. Fellowship of the Leaves requires that civ to have a forest in one of the empire squares in order to found it, similarly Runes of Kilmorph - hills, Octopus Overlords - sea/ocean/coast/lake. The Order, Ashen Veil, and Cult of the Dragon don't have these requirements.

Seamo75's post in the main FFH2 thread suggested something similar to inspire this from me:

Religions can only be founded under specific circumstances. Fellowship of the Leaves requires that civ to have a forest in one of the empire squares in order to found it, similarly Runes of Kilmorph - hills, Octopus Overlords - sea/ocean/coast/lake. The Order, Ashen Veil, and Cult of the Dragon don't have these requirements.

I actually liked sevos idea best of having great prophets found religions (faces of god mod). But I dont think it ended up being very fun.

Maybe someday each civ will just start with their own religion.

i always thought deserts should be farmable since desert farms do work with good irragation maybe allow the desert people the ability to create normal farms in deserts

Hmm, the ability to have sandstorms (like treants) show up in deserts when threatened after researching a certain tech or building an improvement could be very interesting, for the Malakim or for FfH as a whole. Maybe there could be a glass resource that only the Malakim could see?

That would be useful for making ppl like deserts more (which might be a good thing!).

Hmm, the ability to have sandstorms (like treants) show up in deserts when threatened after researching a certain tech or building an improvement could be very interesting, for the Malakim or for FfH as a whole. Maybe there could be a glass resource that only the Malakim could see?
Because windblown sand of a large sandstorm will eat cars away to the frame, skin,muscle and yes even bone.......it will get through the cracks and slits in armor and wittle it away if deserts get like this in future Civ games please somebody allow tunnel networks of some sort for something and by the way since we are on sand storms in a religion thread because of possible connections I find myself remember the DUNE series.........not only a building but a sandstorm spell in or next to any desert tile would be a good Idea and maybe the more desert tiles the better.......be afraid of the desert.

Yeah, I've always disliked tiles that are absolutely useless to all Civs, regardless of other factors. That's why I think that the Khazad should get some bonus with mountains, the Malakim with deserts, and maybe some Civ should get a bonus from jungles (OMGWTFBBQ LIZARDMANZORZ??!!!1).

Yeah, I've always disliked tiles that are absolutely useless to all Civs, regardless of other factors. That's why I think that the Khazad should get some bonus with mountains, the Malakim with deserts, and maybe some Civ should get a bonus from jungles (OMGWTFBBQ LIZARDMANZORZ??!!!1).

But if all terrains are useful to some civ dont they all become the same? We end up in a situation where tundra for the illians is just like the deserts for the malakim which is just lihe the peaks for the khazad which is just like the jungles for the lizardmen (or whatever).

There needs to be better and worse of everything. Deserts and jungles do have some functions, even if it is just being the home to types of creatures and resources. But from a production standpoint, in order for something to be good, something has to be bad.

Im okay with creating some synergy with civs and particular terrain types. I just dont want to make that promotion bonuses. Which may be what you are saying anyway. We have the synergy between fire civs (malakim and the clan) and deserts with the sand lion spell. What else could be done?

I guess I'm just looking for a way to keep the world's deserts from being all converted to plains by the year 400, and the jungles being gone by the year 300. I'm surprised you disagree here, as the alternative is all of the Civs doing their best to cover their territory with grasslands, settling as far away from mountains as possible, and chopping down jungles ASAP. In short, you'll stifle diversity instead of promoting it. I'm not saying mountains for the Khazad should be the same as deserts for the Malakim, but it would be nice if each had some bonus (like high production for mountains and perhaps a couple of food or commerce from deserts). What sort of fantasy setting has all of the lands more or less the same?

The trouble is that deserts ARE rotten terrain for most purposes. Now matter how fire-attuned or accustomed to deserts a given civ is, it won't be able to conjure food and gold from dry sand.
However, there might be other bonuses coming with the terrain. Combat bonuses might be a nice idea, like the Dolviello has for tundra. It might be incitement enough to keep a few deserts around. One could also give some Malakin units the ability to hide in deserts, going invisible and ambushing whoever tries to pass through.
One might also go a different route, and give all units standing on desert tiles a slight health degeneration, except for Malakim units. Would be realistic that an invading army would become weary and undisciplined after walking through miles and miles of desert wasteland. Demons, undead and constructs should probably be exempt from this.
A happy or health bonus for desert squares for the malakim would be another option. Even if you would get 0 production from the deserts, there'd still be a reason to keep some in your city radius, though eventually you'd probably turn them to grassland anyway once the city started to get maxed out on worked tiles.

Hmm...or perhaps the Malakim could get a special kind of bonus from Oasis squares. That might make sense.

One might also go a different route, and give all units standing on desert tiles a slight health degeneration, except for Malakim units. Would be realistic that an invading army would become weary and undisciplined after walking through miles and miles of desert wasteland. Demons, undead and constructs should probably be exempt from this.

This is a good idea, like the crusaders wandering through the desert in plate armor and collapsing at the feet of the enemy from heat stroke.

A happy or health bonus for desert squares for the malakim would be another option. Even if you would get 0 production from the deserts, there'd still be a reason to keep some in your city radius, though eventually you'd probably turn them to grassland anyway once the city started to get maxed out on worked tiles.

Hmm...or perhaps the Malakim could get a special kind of bonus from Oasis squares. That might make sense.

A trade bonus would make sense, desert peoples congregated in oasises (sp? silly plurals) Perhaps an extra trade in every oasis square equal to the number of adjacent deserts? Though oasis tiles are usually pretty rare, this might not be enough.

Hmm, wait... Kurotates have a few LARGE cities... what if Malakim got such a bonus from this, that if they had an oasis, it would pay to have it completely surrounded by desert, leading to small cities that were still useful? Like +1 trade and hammer in an oasis for each desert tile adjacent and in the cities radius, but still only the 3 or 4 food. Combine with slightly lower maintence costs for # cities and a few units with small bonuses on deserts, maybe they'd have incentive to be desert people for a long time.

Hmm, I believe it's pronounced "oh-ACE-eez", not sure how it's spelled.

Negative healing promotion sounds great, perhaps (only/more deadly) in Malakim lands, with the Malakim immune to it in any case, or maybe the Malakim units could even heal faster there. I can imagine the Malakim having adepts using Fire 1 to scorch lands that their cities can't work, but that are still on the border to rival lands. Perhaps Malakim deserts could have a chance to spread into enemy lands? Wouldn't be too powerful, as a simple Water 1 could return them to plains. Could there be a way to change grassland to plains? Some people like it that way.

Maybe an extra trade route for each oasis that the Malakim (can/do) work? This could be interesting, but an oasis is already a valuable tile, I was hoping for more useful desert tiles.

I believe Kael said something earlier, on another thread, about having some types of terrain be more susceptible to certain Civs' cultures. Making deserts able to be spread to earlier, and being effected more greatly by Malakim culture might be a nice step. The only problem is that the Civ probably doesn't want the deserts in the first place, but it would still be a nice ability.

Perhaps there could be a Malakim hero that had some desert-enhanced abilities? One that has the ability to teleport from any desert to any other desert (with other units?) might be interesting.

Hmm... maybe a Malakim Hero that gets stronger the more desert tiles that there are in the world? :lol: Malakim adepts turning the world to desert in preparation for their Angel of light. Doesn't sound all that good, but an interesting mechanic.
this one with.....well 151-155 ok I'll copy and repost if you want everybody or you can look..........sounds like rum-cake:D That is a compliment,I love rum-cake!

A couple more thoughts about Malakim civ. It seems to be moving toward an arabianish feel, desert nomads and such, and I think that'd be cool. Analogous to the Lanun, focused toward one area, but through a different mechanism so they aren't just the Lanun of the dunes.

An issue as said is how can you encourage them to build in the desert without simply making desert tiles act like plains for them, because like Corindale said, deserts aren't going to give food to anyone. But you need food to have a city of any size. Desert peoples, to my knowledge, have been nomads and traders mostly. Here are some possible mechanics toward these ends:

1) Half of all trade route profit for Malakim cities is gained in food instead of commerce. This would allow them to grow without needing to rely on working terrain or springing all the tiles.

2) Remove health bonus from forests. This is a less harsh way of preventingthe trade route food bonus above from growing non-desert cites too fast too soon.

3) Make desert tiles provide one extra production. Malakim workers can't exactly feed themselves from cactus, but they know how to survive the heat to get at the resources there.

4) Whenever a city would lose a person (population) to either starvation or an attack, that person doesn't just disappear, but is moved instead to a random city connected via trade routes. (or maybe 50% chance). This may be a Malakim city, or else an allies with OB-in which case the citizen would retain it's nationality, making it harder for that civ to wage war against Malakim. (unahppiness form "we don't wanna fight our motherland") Limit this transfer to once per city per 10 turns or so to prevent abuse. This would represent nomads being willing to follow the food.

5) The malakim population fed by trade routes makes them another good candidate (Kuriotates and Gregori being the others) for great person strategies, as these people are either mining the deserts or specialists. A small synergy bonus for this could be allowing GP super specialists to leave a city as in 4 if the city is destroyed if that city has a trade route to another Malakim city.

6) A Carrot and stick method to make deserts attractive, rather than just possible, is needed. I'd enable any desert tiles in the city radius (regardless of what cultural boundaries it lies in--this is a gift from the sun god above, not the earth) to have some effect when an enemy enters it. More common than ancient forrests, as those also have great production value. It could be a 25% chance at a sand lion, but that is similar to the fellowship Treent summoning. It could be a dramatic health degen, like 10% per turn, but would the AI know to move? I think that was mentioned with regard to a recent wonder proposal. How about summoning a sandstorm, which is a weak unit that causes collateral damage and may push the attackers away, like tremor spell. To make this defense needed, give thier cities 10-15% less defense bonus no matter where they are.

6.5) Replace their pagan temple (he doesn't seem like the type to like pagans) with a special "lightbringer temple" that increses the sanstorm or whatever.

7) Perhaps a Malakim only Oasis improvement, a "bazaar" that adds +1 hammer, +2 commerce, and provides a spices resource or a happy face.

8) Maybe an extra withdrawl chance for their calvary units when attacking into deserts as well, they disappear into the sandstorms.

Okay, well, pick and choose if you want, or just pick apart and tell me I'm in the wrong direction! :D

Some really nice ideas in the post above, hope the teams use some. *bump*

1) Half of all trade route profit for Malakim cities is gained in food instead of commerce. This would allow them to grow without needing to rely on working terrain or springing all the tiles.

Could be interesting, as I like the idea of the Malakim not being the sort to just farm a place to death, instead living off the land. A city of nomads that has many of its citizens roaming from city to city time to time might cause this effect. Still, I don't like the implied commerce penalty from getting only half commerce from trade routes. Perhaps trade routes could provide full commerce and half food?

2) Remove health bonus from forests. This is a less harsh way of preventingthe trade route food bonus above from growing non-desert cites too fast too soon.

Seems like a small and rather strange penalty. Still, if it would be a balancing factor, it might be a nice idea. Any specific logic you'd use to justify it?

3) Make desert tiles provide one extra production. Malakim workers can't exactly feed themselves from cactus, but they know how to survive the heat to get at the resources there.

Maybe one :hammers: one :commerce: default yield for Malakim desert tiles? It would be nice if improvements that normally are blocked for deserts could be built there as well (farms, workshops, cottages), though they might have decreased yield, and perhaps the workshops and/or farms would give -1 :commerce:. I'd think that farms would still have to be irrigated. We'd want to make these tiles and improvements better than turning the land under them into plains, but they still have to be different.

4) Whenever a city would lose a person (population) to either starvation or an attack, that person doesn't just disappear, but is moved instead to a random city connected via trade routes. (or maybe 50% chance). This may be a Malakim city, or else an allies with OB-in which case the citizen would retain it's nationality, making it harder for that civ to wage war against Malakim. (unahppiness form "we don't wanna fight our motherland") Limit this transfer to once per city per 10 turns or so to prevent abuse. This would represent nomads being willing to follow the food.

I've liked this idea myself in different places, and it might suit the Malakim well, but it sounds like it might be real tough to code/design, for too little benefit. Still, if the team wants to do it, it might be alright. Maybe their spread could be restricted by happiness/health cap on other cities (nomads wouldn't go there, and it would help make sure that it doesn't become an inconvenience).

5) The malakim population fed by trade routes makes them another good candidate (Kuriotates and Gregori being the others) for great person strategies, as these people are either mining the deserts or specialists. A small synergy bonus for this could be allowing GP super specialists to leave a city as in 4 if the city is destroyed if that city has a trade route to another Malakim city.

Heh, I like that idea. Maybe a percentage chance of the GP making it? Perhaps it would only provide a free specialist instead of a full-fledged super specialist?

6) A Carrot and stick method to make deserts attractive, rather than just possible, is needed. I'd enable any desert tiles in the city radius (regardless of what cultural boundaries it lies in--this is a gift from the sun god above, not the earth) to have some effect when an enemy enters it. More common than ancient forrests, as those also have great production value. It could be a 25% chance at a sand lion, but that is similar to the fellowship Treent summoning. It could be a dramatic health degen, like 10% per turn, but would the AI know to move? I think that was mentioned with regard to a recent wonder proposal. How about summoning a sandstorm, which is a weak unit that causes collateral damage and may push the attackers away, like tremor spell. To make this defense needed, give thier cities 10-15% less defense bonus no matter where they are.

6.5) Replace their pagan temple (he doesn't seem like the type to like pagans) with a special "lightbringer temple" that increses the sanstorm or whatever.

I like the negative healing thing, though I'm not sure if it can be made to work in workable tiles, regardless of cultural borders. I'd prefer to just see it effect all Malakim desert tiles. The AI would probably handle it like it does fallout (not sure how it handles fallout, though :blush: ).

7) Perhaps a Malakim only Oasis improvement, a "bazaar" that adds +1 hammer, +2 commerce, and provides a spices resource or a happy face.

I like this! Not sure what I can add to it, but it seems worth consideration.

8) Maybe an extra withdrawl chance for their calvary units when attacking into deserts as well, they disappear into the sandstorms.

Perhaps a movement bonus as well? We don't want to make these guys clones of the Doviello, but I'd say that we aren't really in danger of that.

I might be stepping beyond myself to tell you this, but I think it's the right direction! :D

Perhaps trade routes could provide full commerce and half food? everything up for balance, of course.

Seems like a small and rather strange penalty. Still, if it would be a balancing factor, it might be a nice idea. Any specific logic you'd use to justify it? Didn't want to copy the -1 farm penalty, and thought it'd be simplest to work with the already in health mechanic. It may not be needed or likewise may not be enough.

Maybe one :hammers: one :commerce: default yield for Malakim desert tiles? It would be nice if improvements that normally are blocked for deserts could be built there as well (farms, workshops, cottages), though they might have decreased yield, and perhaps the workshops and/or farms would give -1 :commerce:. I'd think that farms would still have to be irrigated. We'd want to make these tiles and improvements better than turning the land under them into plains, but they still have to be different.
I'd rule out cottages in deserts, if any sort of realism is a goal. I just don't think you could have that many people living on the desert squares outside the cities. Farms could work, since a +1/+2 w/ sanitation bonus would still be small. My goal with the ideas was to have sort of a nation of traders who import most of thier food, and the cities having lots of empty squares but lots of specialists. So I'd rather not boost up the desert tiles too much, if the food/trade route thing worked.

The way that the deserts would be better than plains would ideally be the combat advantages.

EDIT: sorry, I meant the protection the tiles would offer by hindering incoming units in some way, not just a straight +% combat on desert like the Dovellio have.

I've liked this idea myself in different places, and it might suit the Malakim well, but it sounds like it might be real tough to code/design, for too little benefit. Still, if the team wants to do it, it might be alright. Maybe their spread could be restricted by happiness/health cap on other cities (nomads wouldn't go there, and it would help make sure that it doesn't become an inconvenience).
Yeah, my ideas come from a complete lack of coding knowledge. The goal was to see the population shift around as the trade routes change, and citizens fleeing a city when it's resources are pillaged.


I like the negative healing thing, though I'm not sure if it can be made to work in workable tiles, regardless of cultural borders. I'd prefer to just see it effect all Malakim desert tiles. The AI would probably handle it like it does fallout (not sure how it handles fallout, though :blush: ). Does fallout give damage to units?

Yeah, but if the Malakim get food from trade routes, and they happen to be in a fertile location, then they'll just have massive cities, and that was supposed to be the Kuriotates' thing. And the deserts being better primarily through combat would just mean that the Malakim are good desert fighters, but they really have no other relation to them. I think that a tundra combat bonus for the Doviello works out okay because they're supposed to be a warlike Civ, but the Malakim just don't seem that way to me.

I'd like to see the Malakim settling on the edges of deserts, using food from the grasslands and plains to work desert tiles which give other bonuses. Just as elves can build in forests where most would cut them down, I'd like to see the Malakim able to have some improvements there. Perhaps the Malakim cottages on deserts could be limited in their growth. Keep in mind that a village on a desert that gives the yields I've described would give one :hammers: and five :commerce: (because of Varn's finantial trait, and six :commerce: if it's allowed to mature fully), with no food to supply it. The people working this tile would be getting their food from outside sources. A farm (with sanitation) would give 2 :food:, 1 :hammers:, one :commerce:. It would be barely self-sufficient, built only because the city is too short on food in other areas, and could only be built by an oasis. A workshop (it would reduce commerce by one in the place of food), would provide a straight three :hammers:, only viable for a city with little production and much need for it.

I'd like to see the Malakim using deserts as a viable component to their economic strategy. Of course, they'd need some grassland and probably some plains, too, but they should also have some vast deserts which they don't want to get rid of. Here's another, more moderate, idea for the team to chew on: Malakim windmills on flatland desert tiles.

I like the idea of food from trade routes but it wouldn't really make deserts better, it would just make the civ better. I would suggest changing it instead to rely on both trade routes and deserts. Like every two desert plots in the city radius gives +1 food per trade route. I don't think this alone would make deserts worth it but it's a start.

Not read all the posts but one thing i also thought.

I guess I'm just looking for a way to keep the world's deserts from being all converted to plains by the year 400

My solution would be that you need the posibility to irrigate a plot to spring it. So spring would only work next to farms and next to rivers/seas. Maybe even stricter: limit it to only plots with fresh water.

This religion idea is supposed to be a bit "off" kilter. Much like the cult of the Dragon, it's intended to play against the other 5 religions as "a whole" instead of being particularly independant. STill, unlike the Cultists, this religion has a purpose, an end, and themes much like the other relgions.

Kinship of the Lost is a group of asetic monks (no particular God) who cultivate a sense of nothingness and try to acend. (Yes..its buddhism, but with a twist).

The Kinship of the Lost, spreads when war occurs. If a city is captured, there is an X% chance that it will gain followers of the lost. In this, the Lost spread through acknowledgement of woe and hard ache. Cities with unhappy people also have a Y% chance. These chances are only available if connected to the trade network of the founding civ.

The Kinship of the Lost, can make disciples, but have no other passive form of spreading. The Kinship have unique buildings and units that spread its word.
The Kinship's Goal is to acsend. They accomplish this by teching out. A tech victory. Because, once they accend, who cares? They accend not to the realm of gods, but to their own personalized, (and created) realm. They make their own heaven.

Some Building Ideas:
KINSHIP OF LOST FOUNDING CITY: +4 Happy, +2 Culture, +2 Food (Reproduction) {Concept: Tragedy}

Temple of the Lost - Templish features (Concept: Astestism)
Garden of Kinship - +2 Healthy (Concept: Be in Balance for the World to come)

The Obligitory Wonder that Ends the Game in a Victory (Kinda like the Master Tower, but only ONE religion can build it.) Not sure how to prevent people from being something else, then switching to it to win. It should be something sought after for a long time. Maybe the wonder can be built with the same technology as the one that discovers it.....but its VERY expensive....as in the most expensive in the game, but doesnt require ANYTHING else. And you must be Kinship to build it, if you switch, its production is lost.


Some Unit Ideas:
Kinship Monk - Attack Unit that also can bring the religion to other cities. If Monk defeats an opponent, it has a % chance to create another Monk. {Concept: Disciple type unit but martial}

Martyr - Invisable Unit, Can go into cities of other Civs, and Purge religions. Also may found a religion. {Concept: Missle-type ground unit designed for damaging or disrupting enemy cities, tragic}

Dalbudma - National Unit (Limit 3): Cannot be attacked except by Invisable units. {Concept: Serenely wise and untouchable}


Some Civic Ideas:

Cultureal Values: Ascetisism - +50% War Weariness
- -50% Military Production
- +3 Specialists in All cities with Ascetisism
- +2 Happy In All cities with Ascetisism
- +1 Food from Farms, +2 From Monestaries


Some Improvement Ideas:

Monestary (Replaces Winery) +2 Hammers, +2 Food

This Religion would be best suited for Tech Turtles, and people who want to avoid conflict. It also works great as a thorne in the side of the other religions, "snubing" them, without actually being agnostic. Plus it offers a different route to the completion of the game. And Civs will have to keep an Eye on Kinship of the Lost Civs, lest they build their accention wonder.

Maybe the space ship ending could be changed to fit this. Just a "List" of national wonders needed to be built. Ascention of the Body, Ascention of the Mind, Ascention of the Soul, Ascention of the Lost. Each having a tech requirement, but the lost not requiring anything but the other 3.

I'm not quite sure why this discussion of deserts & Malakim is in a religion thread, but here's my $.02:

I like that idea of food by trade routes, and agree that deserts need to be more usefull. How about this:

1) One free food with every trade route.
Benefits from increases such as the harbor building's +50%, inn's +25%, and tavern's +25%.
Food limited to 1/2 the number of desert tiles in the city radius. (1/2 is just an estimate, tweak the number of deserts required untill it feels right)
Also limited by population to 1 free food per population

The bonus food will allow citys in desert areas to grow quickly initially, but the deserts will eventually cripple the citys ability to grow. Small, quickly growing, therefore more replacable, citys sound flavorful to me.


2) Allow creation of workshops on desert.
I'm not sure how one could do this just for the Malakim without making a new "Malakim Workshop" buildable only with a unique tech, worker, or resource. If a new workshop is added, I think it should have the <bCarriesIrrigation> tag true. This could allow irrigation water to be transported across deserts to plains and grasslands. This would provide a unique flavor benefit for the Malakim allowing better use of desert areas. I'd also give this workshop 1 extra trade yield.

The workshops will enable some conventional production in desert regions so that people will not resort to whip-builds with the people from the free food. Slavery doesn't seem to fit with the Malakim's good fire god to me.

I'm not quite sure why this discussion of deserts & Malakim is in a religion thread, but here's my $.02:

I like that idea of food by trade routes, and agree that deserts need to be more usefull. How about this:

1) One free food with every trade route.
Benefits from increases such as the harbor building's +50%, inn's +25%, and tavern's +25%.
Food limited to 1/2 the number of desert tiles in the city radius. (1/2 is just an estimate, tweak the number of deserts required untill it feels right)
Also limited by population to 1 free food per population

The bonus food will allow citys in desert areas to grow quickly initially, but the deserts will eventually cripple the citys ability to grow. Small, quickly growing, therefore more replacable, citys sound flavorful to me.


2) Allow creation of workshops on desert.
I'm not sure how one could do this just for the Malakim without making a new "Malakim Workshop" buildable only with a unique tech, worker, or resource. If a new workshop is added, I think it should have the <bCarriesIrrigation> tag true. This could allow irrigation water to be transported across deserts to plains and grasslands. This would provide a unique flavor benefit for the Malakim allowing better use of desert areas. I'd also give this workshop 1 extra trade yield.

The workshops will enable some conventional production in desert regions so that people will not resort to whip-builds with the people from the free food. Slavery doesn't seem to fit with the Malakim's good fire god to me.


For the Workshop...what are they working with? Sand? Id prefer it if it was a "glassmaker" workshop replacement. This could provide that city (and perhaps that city alone?) with "glass" a luxury and/or strategic resource.

MOST Desert peoples did one of three things to live. A) They traded obscenely, and made sure no one else could trade but them. B) They built up large armies (Usually a LOT of calvary) and conquered peoples to give them tribute. Or C) Get assimilated by their neighbors.

IF something is done "special" for desert peoples, it shouldn't be making the desert more profitable (any income, food/hammers/wealth) it should be using the desert more as a barrier to other civs. Use it to launch attacks from (because one's units are attuned to it). Or trade across it. ID be more willing to say that ALL settelers and workers cannot go into Desert, except for desert people settlers and workers. That would provide the Desert people with a unique advantage, and "raise the bar" for everyone else. Deserts are harsh, not productive. It'd make people play them different, and it would also create and interesting strategy to use fire magic to reduce a boarder to desert, then have the only roads available through it. You could use this tactic to cut off an enemy from trade routes (unless he's got access to the sea).

Desert peoples are traders and warriors. Not producers. (Except for Oil...but this is a Fantasy Mod)

-QES

For the Workshop...what are they working with? Sand? Id prefer it if it was a "glassmaker" workshop replacement. This could provide that city (and perhaps that city alone?) with "glass" a luxury and/or strategic resource.

MOST Desert peoples did one of three things to live. A) They traded obscenely, and made sure no one else could trade but them. B) They built up large armies (Usually a LOT of calvary) and conquered peoples to give them tribute. Or C) Get assimilated by their neighbors.

IF something is done "special" for desert peoples, it shouldn't be making the desert more profitable (any income, food/hammers/wealth) it should be using the desert more as a barrier to other civs. Use it to launch attacks from (because one's units are attuned to it). Or trade across it. ID be more willing to say that ALL settelers and workers cannot go into Desert, except for desert people settlers and workers. That would provide the Desert people with a unique advantage, and "raise the bar" for everyone else. Deserts are harsh, not productive. It'd make people play them different, and it would also create and interesting strategy to use fire magic to reduce a boarder to desert, then have the only roads available through it. You could use this tactic to cut off an enemy from trade routes (unless he's got access to the sea).

Desert peoples are traders and warriors. Not producers. (Except for Oil...but this is a Fantasy Mod)

-QES
I spoke of desert tiles allowing something with glass and I just thought about Glassiers for glass blowing and the ablity to make glass containers not only could bring commerce:gold: and allow food to be held better:food:... but I think Moltov Cocktails:mischief: :ninja: ......

The problem with requiring deserts to have fresh water before they can be changed to plains is that many fresh water desert tiles are flood plains anyway. Still, it might be a nice limiting idea. And, it could stack with our ideas for making Malakim deserts more productive.

About the deserts not being productive in real life, keep in mind that if these Malakim have the blessings of the Sun god, and if they have a magical affinity for deserts, they'd probably be able to coax something out of it. Also keep in mind that FfH is supposed to be fun and flavorful, so anything that will promote those goals is good.

Ya, we can´t compare deserts in FfH whit real ones because of that little 2 things.... Magic and Sun God´s blessing. Hey, no one has this in real world ! wooo :mischief:

How about a Nomad unit for the Malakim? 0 strength and 1 movement. Only ability is that they create an Encampment on whatever desert tile they stand on. This works sort of like a cottage in reverse, giving a good cash bonus and perhaps a bit of food, and then have it degenerate until they move to another desert square. They can't make an Encampment on the same square twice, so they have to travel around a lot, visiting different cities with their bonuses. They should probably be national units(limited to 3).

Good idea, but would another Nomad be able to make a encampment on a tile where other Nomad alredy did one ?

Good idea, but would another Nomad be able to make a encampment on a tile where other Nomad alredy did one ?

Probably not, I haven't really thought it all the way through, it's mostly a concept idea. I don't know how it would be affected by using Spring and Scorch in succession on a desert tile to create a "new" desert tile either.

Sounds like using nomads to build encampments would be a bit tedious if they kept on degenerating. Might be too much micromanagement.

Sounds like using nomads to build encampments would be a bit tedious if they kept on degenerating. Might be too much micromanagement.

Well, I imagined that you wouldn't actually need to build them, they'd just appear whenever a Nomad stood on a square within a city fat cross, and disappear the instant they move again. Or perhaps they could be commanded to "make camp" on a square and then control of the unit would be automatically regained once the Encampment's "burned out". Then it wouldn't really be any more tedious than setting a worker to spend a number of turns building an improvement.

Would the nomad be trapped on the square where he's built his encampment until it completely burned out? I'm worried that you'd be stuck with a mediocre tile to work until the encampment burned out.

I guess my biggest issue with this is that it doesn't have a lot of "drool factor" as they say. Sure it's interesting, sure it's fun, but it's not quite as "cool" as having your vampires feast on the townsfolk, or having a few gigantic metropolises from which you run your empire, or actually being at peace with the barbs. Then again, it's not my place to say what can or can't be in the game. If it's deemed to be the Malakim's unique thing, I'll still go with it.

The problem with requiring deserts to have fresh water before they can be changed to plains is that many fresh water desert tiles are flood plains anyway. Still, it might be a nice limiting idea. And, it could stack with our ideas for making Malakim deserts more productive.

About the deserts not being productive in real life, keep in mind that if these Malakim have the blessings of the Sun god, and if they have a magical affinity for deserts, they'd probably be able to coax something out of it. Also keep in mind that FfH is supposed to be fun and flavorful, so anything that will promote those goals is good.

True, Fantasy, Fun are priority. But I think our desert friends would lose some of their "Feel" if the desert was full of improvements, and roads, and looked merely like a slightly redish tile variant as opposed to the more lush lands.

I'm cool with them getting a special resource, maybe they have a starting tech that reveals some special resource in deserets, and its only revealed to them. Still it should be rare. The desert on the map should look like a (if its got decent size) vast desolate expance.....nigh impossible to cross.

Perhaps the Sun God is the only reason that these people can cross the desert unscathed, blessings from a God whom would otherwise shrivel mortals to a crisp in those lands. I just dont like the idea of desert clutter. But I do see the "magical coolness" your talking about. MAYBE Deserts serve like free roads to the Desert peoples? And are nigh incrossible to others? Mobility is a definate resource.

-QES

How about a Nomad unit for the Malakim? 0 strength and 1 movement. Only ability is that they create an Encampment on whatever desert tile they stand on. This works sort of like a cottage in reverse, giving a good cash bonus and perhaps a bit of food, and then have it degenerate until they move to another desert square. They can't make an Encampment on the same square twice, so they have to travel around a lot, visiting different cities with their bonuses. They should probably be national units(limited to 3).

Clever, but a bit micromanagy. What about old "colonies" from Civ 3? Give them a Caravan unit that can go out beyond and claim resources outside of territory? In desert of course.

Perhaps deserts having a base movement cost of 2 and a negative healing promotion, so that it's generally smarter to avoid them. The oasis, of course, wouldn't have the negative healing promotion.

And keep in mind that if there are improvements for Malakim deserts, that they would have a small, lonely look about them, so the idea about deserts being inhospitable would still be established. The Malakim would just be unique in being able to live there.

Perhaps deserts having a base movement cost of 2 and a negative healing promotion, so that it's generally smarter to avoid them. The oasis, of course, wouldn't have the negative healing promotion.

And keep in mind that if there are improvements for Malakim deserts, that they would have a small, lonely look about them, so the idea about deserts being inhospitable would still be established. The Malakim would just be unique in being able to live there.

Maybe Impassible to Settlers and Workers, and a negative health bonus to all other units. Enough to make you not want to wander a military across, but as to the "fraile" nature of non-combat units, they're simply denied. The Malakim would then have more mobility and choice early game. Better yet, have some technology that would grant the ability to move over desert and give it to the Malakim right away. Deserts, Like Peaks should be natural barriers that are worked around.

I imagine putting away in my little garden, enjoying some tea, when a troublesome cloud rises on the hills outside my proud city. I thought that was impassable! It'd be cool, could also be a Caravan for trade, to connect me to the rest of the world. The Caravan unit could be a special unit that can travel across desert, make roads, and maybe even function as a minor "great merchant".

-Qes

About caravans, I do miss the ones from CivII that would allow you to establish trade routes with instant cash revenue (Great Merchant-like) and would help building wonders. Might want to skip the latter, but the former DOES cope well with what was said before about IRL desert civs being focused on trade.

I also like the idea of making deserts impassable, or at least a pain to get through. Increasing desert movement cost would have the nice side effect of actually forcing most units to stop in desert tiles instead of simply crossing them, which in turn would encourage players to use mounted units to cross them (and that too fits well with the IRL desert scheme).

Another thought : make desert hills special... maybe add a "Dune" improvement that would give the Malakim some strategic effect (eg. hiding units, strengh bonus when attacking from or something like that). Together with a hill-raising spell, this would allow them to build "desert walls" to make their borders virtually imprenable. (anyway, just renaming "desert hills" du "dunes" would already add great flavor IMO :goodjob:)

With thaat possiblity of an Evil Sun or even a good one I suppose the idea of modifying deserts is not that farj-fetched.....the Ljosalfar with Fellowship of Leaves have Ancient Forest right? Why not a Great Desert Tile change with benefits for those of the religion and Sandstorms that show up to protect against invaders.

With thaat possiblity of an Evil Sun or even a good one I suppose the idea of modifying deserts is not that farj-fetched.....the Ljosalfar with Fellowship of Leaves have Ancient Forest right? Why not a Great Desert Tile change with benefits for those of the religion and Sandstorms that show up to protect against invaders.

We want to be careful to not simply repeat a gimic because it works. Kael expressly said that each "difference' should in fact be that, not merely a clone or repetition of a game mechanic cause it works, even in "thematic" senses.

Desert Hills are Hills of desert, not dunes persay. I think regular desert squares are "dunish". But if they are a pain to cross militarily, and perhaps not crossible at all by non-combat units, it provides a unique flavor, without actually repeating any other game mechanic i can think of, save for peaks, but peaks are universal, instead of specific to civs. In this it would be inversely specific, in that only peoples that worshiped the sun, or had links directly to them, would in fact be able to cross deserts with non combat units.....which means NO roads on desert squares unless your desert peoples too, since workers wont be able to help.

-Qes

I've enjoyed playing FFH2 much and I think lively discusions taking place are good.

I don't think another special terrain would be a good idea, because it would eventualy end with every religion getting some special terrain, leaves are quite special in their unity with nature. On the other side others are focused on people (wisdom, law, etc.).

I prefer the idea with negative healing & unit bonuses.
It would be nice to have a mapscript placing civs according to their alingments. e.g Doviello near poles, Curtoriates in temperate coastal areas with a lot of non-military resources, Elves in forests, Khazad in hills and Malakim with capital city area consisting of plains(savanas)/flood plains encircled by two tiles desert making it legendary city hidden in deserts (like Timbuktu).
I hope this isn't too much off topic.

I've enjoyed playing FFH2 much and I think lively discusions taking place are good.

I don't think another special terrain would be a good idea, because it would eventualy end with every religion getting some special terrain, leaves are quite special in their unity with nature. On the other side others are focused on people (wisdom, law, etc.).

I prefer the idea with negative healing & unit bonuses.
It would be nice to have a mapscript placing civs according to their alingments. e.g Doviello near poles, Curtoriates in temperate coastal areas with a lot of non-military resources, Elves in forests, Khazad in hills and Malakim with capital city area consisting of plains(savanas)/flood plains encircled by two tiles desert making it legendary city hidden in deserts (like Timbuktu).
I hope this isn't too much off topic.

Ya theres a whole thread on that. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=178192
-Qes

We want to be careful to not simply repeat a gimic because it works. Kael expressly said that each "difference' should in fact be that, not merely a clone or repetition of a game mechanic cause it works, even in "thematic" senses.
I can agree with that, but a Great Desert is still a good idea no matter what mechanic is used.

Desert Hills are Hills of desert, not dunes persay. I think regular desert squares are "dunish". But if they are a pain to cross militarily, and perhaps not crossible at all by non-combat units, it provides a unique flavor, without actually repeating any other game mechanic i can think of, save for peaks, but peaks are universal, instead of specific to civs. In this it would be inversely specific, in that only peoples that worshiped the sun, or had links directly to them, would in fact be able to cross deserts with non combat units.....which means NO roads on desert squares unless your desert peoples too, since workers wont be able to help.
Sure, unique is what its all about........are you hunting me.:scared:
I am an options person with this approach: disguard 9 out of 10 things and use the one that fits......it any of the other 9 become useful later good....I as a cook have found scraps make great side dishes and soups if prepared accordingly.

-

Ya theres a whole thread on that. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=178192
-Qes

Sorry, I overlooked it (a very up on the page :rolleyes: ). Seems like people are always getting similar ideas.

I can agree with that, but a Great Desert is still a good idea no matter what mechanic is used.

Sure, unique is what its all about........are you hunting me.:scared:
I am an options person with this approach: disguard 9 out of 10 things and use the one that fits......it any of the other 9 become useful later good....I as a cook have found scraps make great side dishes and soups if prepared accordingly.
-


I tend to be the same way, devoting most of my civ to a single "style" and maxing it. I like 10 options, but i oft, also only chose one or 2. If i'm forced to switch, i do so begrudingly.

And I'll only hunt you in so far as you'll be tasty after a good cooking. You're a cook-what would you eat you with?
-Qes

If desert movement type stuff is to be introduces, a custom map script will certainly be required to form vast expanses of desert that would creat the desired effects without creating too much desert in general.

re malakim: what about a little concept thievery from dune? they can have desert only improvements similar to towns that go from something like a camp to a shelter to a sietch giving 1f,1h, 1-3c (maybe 2f for sietch). with this they could actually have a thriving city that had mostly desert (or even all) desert tiles. and maybe a 'holy' warrior that can haste and/or dance of blades.

If desert movement type stuff is to be introduces, a custom map script will certainly be required to form vast expanses of desert that would creat the desired effects without creating too much desert in general.

re malakim: what about a little concept thievery from dune? they can have desert only improvements similar to towns that go from something like a camp to a shelter to a sietch giving 1f,1h, 1-3c (maybe 2f for sietch). with this they could actually have a thriving city that had mostly desert (or even all) desert tiles. and maybe a 'holy' warrior that can haste and/or dance of blades.

WHile good in theory, it would create very crowded deserts. And the "vast wastelands" nature of the desert would be lost. Desert peoples dont change the desert, they use its natural affects to their advantage in creative (possibly magical) ways.

I agree about deserts needing to be vast - there's a whole thread on Map issues. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=178192
-Qes

Reading all this Malakim discussion reminds me of Paul Atreides leading the Fremen...

I tend to be the same way, devoting most of my civ to a single "style" and maxing it. I like 10 options, but i oft, also only chose one or 2. If i'm forced to switch, i do so begrudingly.

And I'll only hunt you in so far as you'll be tasty after a good cooking. You're a cook-what would you eat you with?
-Qes
I am already well seasoned so probrabley in a Brandy Mustard Sauce topped with a touch of rosemary with a hint of thyme waterbrushed on before cooking served with a full vegetable only salad and a fine red wine.

I am already well seasoned so probrabley in a Brandy Mustard Sauce topped with a touch of rosemary with a hint of thyme waterbrushed on before cooking served with a full vegetable only salad and a fine red wine.

No chestnuts? Seems like it needs something a little nutty, or perhaps a cheese?
-Qes

No chestnuts? Seems like it needs something a little nutty, or perhaps a cheese?
-Qes
Nah, I'm nutty and cheesey enough....but I don't drink yet I still love rum-cake.:D Parmasaen but not dirrectly on before serving if you must.....cheese to please each plate seperatley so everyones needs are fulfilled to their own specifications.:D
No desert? I don't know I thought maybe finishing up a new religion on this forum may give everyone their just deserts.........:lol: ....may the sun ever shining bright burn desert tiles into all your lands...hahaha! The sun and the rest of the seasons themselves as seperate entities of the gods that control them are very angry with winter.......and its greedy god.....Spring is getting alot of elbow room and Summer is getting jellous....Fall throws its hands in the air and says"Well at least my name is in the title of the mod.":mischief:
Another religion similiar in function of dragging the others down like Cult of the Dragon is probrablily best like I beliebe Chalid said.:goodjob:
'

This religion idea is supposed to be a bit "off" kilter. Much like the cult of the Dragon, it's intended to play against the other 5 religions as "a whole" instead of being particularly independant. STill, unlike the Cultists, this religion has a purpose, an end, and themes much like the other relgions.

Kinship of the Lost is a group of asetic monks (no particular God) who cultivate a sense of nothingness and try to acend. (Yes..its buddhism, but with a twist).

The Kinship of the Lost, spreads when war occurs. If a city is captured, there is an X% chance that it will gain followers of the lost. In this, the Lost spread through acknowledgement of woe and hard ache. Cities with unhappy people also have a Y% chance. These chances are only available if connected to the trade network of the founding civ.

The Kinship of the Lost, can make disciples, but have no other passive form of spreading. The Kinship have unique buildings and units that spread its word.
The Kinship's Goal is to acsend. They accomplish this by teching out. A tech victory. Because, once they accend, who cares? They accend not to the realm of gods, but to their own personalized, (and created) realm. They make their own heaven.

Some Building Ideas:
KINSHIP OF LOST FOUNDING CITY: +4 Happy, +2 Culture, +2 Food (Reproduction) {Concept: Tragedy}

Temple of the Lost - Templish features (Concept: Astestism)
Garden of Kinship - +2 Healthy (Concept: Be in Balance for the World to come)

The Obligitory Wonder that Ends the Game in a Victory (Kinda like the Master Tower, but only ONE religion can build it.) Not sure how to prevent people from being something else, then switching to it to win. It should be something sought after for a long time. Maybe the wonder can be built with the same technology as the one that discovers it.....but its VERY expensive....as in the most expensive in the game, but doesnt require ANYTHING else. And you must be Kinship to build it, if you switch, its production is lost.


Some Unit Ideas:
Kinship Monk - Attack Unit that also can bring the religion to other cities. If Monk defeats an opponent, it has a % chance to create another Monk. {Concept: Disciple type unit but martial}

Martyr - Invisable Unit, Can go into cities of other Civs, and Purge religions. Also may found a religion. {Concept: Missle-type ground unit designed for damaging or disrupting enemy cities, tragic}

Dalbudma - National Unit (Limit 3): Cannot be attacked except by Invisable units. {Concept: Serenely wise and untouchable}


Some Civic Ideas:

Cultureal Values: Ascetisism - +50% War Weariness
- -50% Military Production
- +3 Specialists in All cities with Ascetisism
- +2 Happy In All cities with Ascetisism
- +1 Food from Farms, +2 From Monestaries


Some Improvement Ideas:

Monestary (Replaces Winery) +2 Hammers, +2 Food

This Religion would be best suited for Tech Turtles, and people who want to avoid conflict. It also works great as a thorne in the side of the other religions, "snubing" them, without actually being agnostic. Plus it offers a different route to the completion of the game. And Civs will have to keep an Eye on Kinship of the Lost Civs, lest they build their accention wonder.

Maybe the space ship ending could be changed to fit this. Just a "List" of national wonders needed to be built. Ascention of the Body, Ascention of the Mind, Ascention of the Soul, Ascention of the Lost. Each having a tech requirement, but the lost not requiring anything but the other 3.

What about something like this?
-Qes

P.S. I will never question your ability to PUN ever again.

Ouch....ooo eee ouch.....help....I dunno let someone recapture and raize that city on another one of your recaptures well at least something can compete with Cult for making life a pain for most civs.....but who could build it without a problem.........I also crave a desert power in addition to sand lions that make deserts good for some and really bad for others.........because if you have ever had any experience in the desert then you know why.:mischief:

Ouch....ooo eee ouch.....help....I dunno let someone recapture and raize that city on another one of your recaptures well at least something can compete with Cult for making life a pain for most civs.....but who could build it without a problem.........I also crave a desert power in addition to sand lions that make deserts good for some and really bad for others.........because if you have ever had any experience in the desert then you know why.:mischief:

I've been in a desert, its not "good" For anyone, but there are defeinately those who've adapted to living in those harsh coniditions. This isnt to say they coax more production and income out of it, it means they surive what often others could/would not.

And the relgiion as i see it is supposed to be a pain in the neck, it can still grow through intentional (diciple) means, the only "natural" method of it growing is through the unhappiness and war-torn situations throughout the world.
-Qes

I like the idea of the Malakim being able to build something in deserts, but I think that these "somethings" shouldn't ever give food. I think that one :hammers:, one :commerce: as a base yield for the Malakim, and the ability to build some improvements on deserts would be plenty.

I like the idea of the Malakim being able to build something in deserts, but I think that these "somethings" shouldn't ever give food. I think that one :hammers:, one :commerce: as a base yield for the Malakim, and the ability to build some improvements on deserts would be plenty.

The issue with this is that then the deserts (for the malakim) would be generally very cluttered places. Every normal desert square would have a road and a "special" improvement. On the overall map, this would mean that there was no "halt" in growth, or in "improved" terrain. While the malakim are cool Desert peoples, the visual on the map still ought to show the desolation and utter "wastelands" that the deserts represent. Deserts are often boarders, but if they can be improved upon (im even a bit bitter about roads) then there's no real quality of them, other than being the next level down from plains. Grassland is 2 food, plains a food and a hammer, desert a hammer and a gold. All of which could be improved? Strikes me as unflavorful.

I DO want the Malakim to be more deserty.......much more deserty, and ideas to this end are much needed i think, So i love that this discusion is going on, but is there any way we can come up with that makes the malakim powerful, while on desert, while also not depriving the "desert" of its natural and harsh qaulities?

-Qes

You raise a valid point, and one that I've been struggling with myself. I guess the way I envision it, the desert improvements would, aesthetically, look very small, lonely, and somewhat shabby, even. The gameplay yields would have to be fairly decent to give reason for the Malakim to not just spring all of their deserts like everyone else, but it's really no worse than the Lanun being able to run an extra specialist/laborer for every two water tiles they can work.

I'm fully willing to accept any other ways for the Malakim to be integrated with deserts and still be functional otherwise, but it's a tough problem to deal with. Maybe a desert resource could be included as well.

just some things of the top of my head:

-camel ... strategic resource, required for camel units, malakim only. so their allies might get them via trade. (ok, stolen form the lanun, but a unique strategic resource would be fun, and i think it has flavor ... no one except a desert people would spend enough time with camels to domesticate them)
-deserts have negative healing. (maybe less when they have fresh water - so units heal, but slowly)
-deserts take "forever" to build roads (so they CAN participate in trade, but won't spam them everywhere.
-deserts cost every unit one turn to cross - regardless of a road (so even an upgraded hippus raider moves only one tile/turn). [might? be possible to accomplish this by automatically upgrading roads to rails in desert, but setting the movement to 1; if the graphic would be changed to some light footprints it wouldn't even be that ugly]
-camels and (some?) malakim units get a healing (and combat?) bonus on desert so they can survive there
-camels only need one movement point per desert tile
-camels replacing malakim cavalry line, allowing a hit and run tactic. (attack enemy, retreat to nearest city/oasis)

as for allowing them some way of settling in desert, but still be able to survive, they might be able to build something, that grants -3 food from non desert tiles, but giving every specialist +1 food. (representing an elite society, where there are more great people per population to feed, but with slow growth)
so a city in the desert could support 2 specialists, +3per oasis (and maybe +1 or +2 per camel). could also give the building itself some food bonus/free GP, to rise the base.
(ideally these would be cheap world wonders, 100 availiable, only buildable by malakim, so in case someone captures their cities, they won't become useless - unless this were desired)

this would net them some nice production/gold/beakers without cluttering the landscape, they would produce lots of GPP, but as they are not philosophical it may still be balanced, if not, the building might give -X%GPP

just some things of the top of my head:

-camel ... strategic resource, required for camel units, malakim only. so their allies might get them via trade. (ok, stolen form the lanun, but a unique strategic resource would be fun, and i think it has flavor ... no one except a desert people would spend enough time with camels to domesticate them)
-deserts have negative healing. (maybe less when they have fresh water - so units heal, but slowly)
-deserts take "forever" to build roads (so they CAN participate in trade, but won't spam them everywhere.
-deserts cost every unit one turn to cross - regardless of a road (so even an upgraded hippus raider moves only one tile/turn). [might? be possible to accomplish this by automatically upgrading roads to rails in desert, but setting the movement to 1; if the graphic would be changed to some light footprints it wouldn't even be that ugly]
-camels and (some?) malakim units get a healing (and combat?) bonus on desert so they can survive there
-camels only need one movement point per desert tile
-camels replacing malakim cavalry line, allowing a hit and run tactic. (attack enemy, retreat to nearest city/oasis)

as for allowing them some way of settling in desert, but still be able to survive, they might be able to build something, that grants -3 food from non desert tiles, but giving every specialist +1 food. (representing an elite society, where there are more great people per population to feed, but with slow growth)
so a city in the desert could support 2 specialists, +3per oasis (and maybe +1 or +2 per camel). could also give the building itself some food bonus/free GP, to rise the base.
(ideally these would be cheap world wonders, 100 availiable, only buildable by malakim, so in case someone captures their cities, they won't become useless - unless this were desired)

this would net them some nice production/gold/beakers without cluttering the landscape, they would produce lots of GPP, but as they are not philosophical it may still be balanced, if not, the building might give -X%GPP

I particularly like some of these ideas, especially the negative healing (i think in an earlier thread someone said something similar).

Here Are some of my thoughts on the matter.

The major problem we keep rehashing, is that we all know that for a civilization to be coherant and compeditive, it needs to produce, it needs to produce hammers, it needs to produce food (for more ability to produce) and it needs to produce gold for research and other costs. Deserts are, and should REMAIN the anti-thesis of production. Deserts as for the 'cool factor' remain mostly a barrier and a pain-in-the-neck for all other civs. In this, our goal should be to come up with some idea/mechanic in which our civ is compeditive NOT because its a producer but because it has adapted (and wont die) in conditions normally felt. I like the negative healing, because then there is an advantage in building in desert for the malakim becuase (if they are immune) they'll have very natural protection, and a majority of the units they do build will be able to cross into foriegn soil but not necessarily vice versa.

My ideas earlier were that desert would be considered an impassible terrain to settlers and workers, and a hostile environment (e.g. negative healing) to military units. Any civ we designate as "desert people" would get units that would be immune to these causal problems. As for "producing enough" my theory is that floodplains - something that are naturally found in deserts already, would be the main source of food, while any desert hills might still function as a primary source of hammers. Since opposing civs would not be allowed to put workers on deserert, the only road builders (and it should take forever like you said) would be the desert people. This would mean trade across deserts would be exclusively for the malakim, or other desert peoples.

I think that the Malakim's Production or "survival" would be dependant on trade. Could we not give them large bonuses to trade? And perhaps a unit that functioned like a small version of the great merchant? Since gold can be used for almost anything (even production if the right civic is applied) they'd be competetive. I dont know about giving deserts "interesting" or "useful" resources, becuase it would again, clutter the thing. The wastes should be a boundry from which the malakim ride into battle, and then retreat across. If some cities put themselves up against a desert, they'd have a hard time warding off enemy attacks, considering the damage they'd take from being in desert terrain.


In the end we dont simply want to "add" features to desert's making them useful, and therefore just another "type" of terrain. (The elves have forest, the dwarves hills, the malakim desert) It looses something if its merely the paper the rock or the scissors. ITs better if the tactics surrounding "desert" are wholey different than that of normal civ progression.
-Qes

I like your writeup, QES, and I concur. I'll drop the one :hammers: one :commerce: idea.

Making the deserts impassable for non-military units might be too much of a disadvantage to other Civs, as might be making them have an infinite movement cost. Would it be possible to make it so that mounted units move at half (or maybe one-third) speed, with the exception of camels which can move normally? I'd also venture to say that making roads and such take a whole lot of time to build over deserts (except for Malakim workers) and/or roads in deserts spontaneously disappearing (except in Malakim lands) might be a more moderate way to implement this idea.

Also, if memory serves correctly, I believe that camel archers are already a tier 4 unit. This could either be changed, and/or the Malakim could have camel UUs replace their lower-tier mounted units.

Even with these changes, the Malakim are really only "linked" with the deserts in times of war. Sure, deserts are less of a hinderence to them, but we should find a way to make it perhaps even beneficial to be by some deserts for the Malakim. I haven't really thought up any particular ways to economically link the Malakim with deserts in a reliable, believable way yet, so I guess the suggestion box is still open. I do like the idea of linking them to specialists, though.

QES, really like your idea of desert attrition for non-malakim civs.

And about Camels, i've never made them, since in most cases, they just seem weird for the civ im playing to have, would be nice flavour for only Malakim to have em.

Negative healing was apparently a problem to get the AI to understand, if I recall correctly what was said earlier.

What about giving the desert tiles high movement cost and negative defense modifiers?
That way their pathing leads around deserts, and they try not to end their turns there since they always try to end their turns on high defense tiles. Also, its an added benefit to the Malakim - if an enemy is attacking their cities from a desert then they can attack them back with ease.

Thats a nice solution, as in deserts there is no place to hide or prepare a good defense... And it is normally hard to travel in deserts...

What about giving the desert tiles high movement cost and negative defense modifiers?
That way their pathing leads around deserts, and they try not to end their turns there since they always try to end their turns on high defense tiles. Also, its an added benefit to the Malakim - if an enemy is attacking their cities from a desert then they can attack them back with ease.

This is more a reply to everyone.

First off, thanks for the compliments, but dont let me get away with anything.

Thoughts:

Secondly i really like the idea of negative strength modifiers to all non-desrt peoples units, this would represent the vulnerability of the desert, I also like the idea of high (or nigh-impassible) movement modifiers. But i still have a problem with being able to build (even slowly) roads on the desert. Maybe make it ok for settlers to cross, (and of course military units), but i still dont want non-desert people workers to be able to go on the desert, this is primarily because even if its INCREDIBLY slow, by the time you see any sort of real warfare, or real kingdoms duking it out, every last square that CAN be developed will be. Even if its just roads. Now, i know there are valueable resources in desert, not the least of which is insense, so i do want there to be a way for either A) non-desert peoples to access incense, becuase perhaps its also available in non-desert squares, or that having insense in a tile allows access to that tile, for movement.

I imagine A desert near a malakim civilization, its vast and expansive, and there lies but ONE road along it, stretching out onto the far side, where the rest of our FFH world lies. The malakim are threatened by some evil state, and they retreat back across the desert, stopping their trade envoys and caravans, and destroying the road on the way back.
(by the way you cannot destroy your own roads currently, is this on purpose? I was trying to avoid having a religion spread to my city by cutting of the trade, and it wouldnt let me destroy the road..anyway)
The malakim send their forces out into the desert, hordes of mercenaries, horse archers, and summoned units cross the desert destroying the unacustomed lushlanders as though they were not even there. The Mirage of the desert steeps dangerously as city dwellers look to the horizon and see a dark cloud coming over the rise......a dark cloud of dust, an army is approaching from the desert, and it is Malakim vengence that is upon them.


Anything to preserve the "natural barrier" motiff in which the malakim have some sort of exclusive "exception" to, is key. Getting the AI to understand this is also key, which is why i think that "peaks" are our general answer if we can learn how to simulate them in certain ways.

I think that the "answer" is somewhere here in our collective consiousness.
-Qes

Only allowing road-building on incense won't work. There'll always be tricky cases such as an incense-desert square surrounded by water, peaks and desert squares. I think disallowing road building in desert is fine except in your own borders, if only because desert or not this is still your territory and you should always be able to take whetever time it takes to make it somewhat viable. Only wild, untammed desert areas would be non-improveable until someone sets foot on its border and tames the land.

Appart from that, I totally backup the defensive malus and high movement cost ideas. I'm not sure there is much need for the Malakim the have much more of an incentive to settle near desert areas. I mean, look at north africa: the most settled areas are close to the desert because that's where there was some space left to settle in, but its not like people actually took much benefit from the desert itself. Only making the desert a "natural defensive border" is already a strategic bonus in itself, and so far I didn't mind settling near desert if there was good land nearby anyway so I don't see much point in making deserts more valuable. In fact, if desert areas become less viable to other civs, the Malakim might only get to desert because no-one else wants to anyway.

How about:
Whenever a Malakim unit in any non-city desert tile is attacked, it has a high (70-90%) chance of retreating if it would otherwise be defeated (just like offensive retreat abilities)
Also give all Malakim units in desert an offensive retreat ability. (+50%) This bonus would allow mounted units to get close to 100% in retreat ability, showing cavalry(and camalry)'s ability to hit and run very well in the desert.
I think this could be done with a free promotion that toggles when the unit moves.


I don't think that deserts should be made impassible at all or have any restrictions on building roads.

I also think that the Malakim need some production bonus, in addition to whatever combat or mobility bonuses they get. Without it they would need to become a nation of desert-border with lush insides or they would be outbuilt and out teched in no time at all.

Whatever production bonus they get needs to be tied to deserts only, and not help them in non-desert citys.

What about giving the desert tiles high movement cost and negative defense modifiers?
That way their pathing leads around deserts, and they try not to end their turns there since they always try to end their turns on high defense tiles. Also, its an added benefit to the Malakim - if an enemy is attacking their cities from a desert then they can attack them back with ease.

I really like this idea because the AI does a good job of considering the defense modifiers when it moves its units and picks paths for the player. So it would do a good job of avoiding the tiles if it could.

So we are considering:

1. Deserts give -25% defense modifier.
2. Doubling Deserts movement costs.
3. Not having either of these apply to Malakim units.

Sounds good to me. It's better than nothing, anyway.

I agree.

Also, what if whenever the malakim found a city one of the blank desert tiles in its fat cross is turned into an oasis?

Also, what if whenever the malakim found a city one of the blank desert tiles in its fat cross is turned into an oasis?

Maybe after a couple of turns? Making it instant would seem awkward, IMO. This way, it could give the impression that the nomads are looking for the water spring in the desert and find it after a little searching.

edit on august 3rd: Just in case anyone's wondering, the Order theme is an extract from Enya's "Ebudae". I just heard the song today and was very surprised.

I think that the early religions should be kept useful for early in the game (FoL, OO, Runes) but that the late religions (Order, Veil) should be powered up as state religions to provide an incentive for obtaining them or converting to them. Most people think Ashen Veil is underpowered and I suspect the Order is too.
In vanilla civ 4 because all religions were the same it was way better to just get an early religion (even if you don't found it) and stick with it for the bonuses - not a great system IMO.

I agree, Ashen seems to be a bit underpowered. And being rewarded for conversion by having a 12 strength demon pop up in your country is a bit nasty. I once went for Ashen Veil early and he popped up near my capital, when all I had to defend were warriors and the occasional diseased corpse.

The Order though is great, particularly the ability to convert all your empire very quickly (use an acolyte, get a new one free :) ). The ability to make your cities upkeep free is also very attractive in the late game.

I agree, Ashen seems to be a bit underpowered. And being rewarded for conversion by having a 12 strength demon pop up in your country is a bit nasty. I once went for Ashen Veil early and he popped up near my capital, when all I had to defend were warriors and the occasional diseased corpse.

:dubious: I don't recall ever seeing a demon pop in my country when converting to Ashen Veil. What civ/difficulty were you playing?

Yeah I never have gotten that demon..

:dubious: I don't recall ever seeing a demon pop in my country when converting to Ashen Veil. What civ/difficulty were you playing?
I have seen it happen once whe I got Infernal Grimoire built. My free ritualist saved my backside there.

The Infernal Grimoire is a very cheap free tech that has a 20% chance of popping a barbarian Balor by the city that builds it. It doesn't require the Ashen Veil to build, but does require the tech that founds the veil (Infrenal Pact) so its most often built by Ashen players.

But I wouldn't consider it an Ashen strength or liability. Its a fairly balanced wonder in and of itself and can be built by players of all religions.

I know that some people consider the Ashen Veil very underpowered, but to me they are both fine, with just tiny changes.
1. Make sure that diseased corpses suffer NO negative effects from disease. (just a bug fix really)
2. Increase the spread rates of both religions moderatly (biggest change)
3. Slightly increase the bonus gold from sacrifice the weak. Or change it to--Cottages, towns, villages, hamlets give +1 gold. I prefer the second one because it means that their money can be then invested in technology if they wish.
4. Make all the order and veil heros Evangelists to help the religion spread. Seriously if an Angel shows up at the gate of your city, enough of the inhabitans of the city will start worshipping him for the religion to spread. And the other two heros just to help the religion spread early on.

This is all i think is neccessary to make both the order and AV perfectly good choices.

3. Slightly increase the bonus gold from sacrifice the weak. Or change it to--Cottages, towns, villages, hamlets give +1 gold. I prefer the second one because it means that their money can be then invested in technology if they wish.
4. Make all the order and veil heros Evangelists to help the religion spread. Seriously if an Angel shows up at the gate of your city, enough of the inhabitans of the city will start worshipping him for the religion to spread. And the other two heros just to help the religion spread early on.

These are the two that I think are most important. I think the Order is pretty fine as it is right now, but the Veil is much weaker. If we're going to reward people for holding off on religion until Corruption of Spirit, we might have to increase its power more than the Order's. If we can also take the oppertunity to add some nice flavor mechanics to really make the Order and the Veil enemies, then all the better.

What I don't understand is why people think that the veil is weaker. I think that once the two changes I've suggested above (#'s 1 and 3) are implemented,they will be roughly equal.

Both have pwnage priests, are late to found, have equivalent heros, and powerful UU's.
The order has a better special building, and a better special civic, but the AV has an extra powerful UU.
Neither has a unique wonder, and the order can't use Eidolons while the AV can't use Paladins.

(1) The Crown of Akharien is a world wonder, while the Bazaar of Mammon is a national one. Thus, maximizing the Stigmata on the Unborn is tougher than maximizing the other shrines.

(2) The diseased corpse is more of a liability than an asset. Unless your stack is made of nothing but them, they can hurt you more than they help.

(3) Their other buildings also provide :science: instead of :gold:. As science multiplying buildings are more rare than gold multiplying ones, they actually often have less research than their rivals.

(4) Their civic is more of a tradeoff, while the other religions' civics are closer to an unrestricted bonus.

There are reasons so many people don't like to play the Veil, even when they're evil. If we're at the point where vampires do best as tree-huggers, then we have a problem.

What I don't understand is why people think that the veil is weaker. I think that once the two changes I've suggested above (#'s 1 and 3) are implemented,they will be roughly equal.

Both have pwnage priests, are late to found, have equivalent heros, and powerful UU's.
The order has a better special building, and a better special civic, but the AV has an extra powerful UU.
Neither has a unique wonder, and the order can't use Eidolons while the AV can't use Paladins.

Priests require incense. If the uberness of your religion relies on a single resource, your religion is kind of crap. Leaves and Runes and OO, enjoy their preiests, but do not rely on them for badazness. Badazocity? Anyway, Relgions should be cool outside of a single unit, even if those units are or are not awesome.
-Qes

EDIT: I agree about the diseased corpoi

(1) The Crown of Akharien is a world wonder, while the Bazaar of Mammon is a national one. Thus, maximizing the Stigmata on the Unborn is tougher than maximizing the other shrines.

(2) The diseased corpse is more of a liability than an asset. Unless your stack is made of nothing but them, they can hurt you more than they help.

(3) Their other buildings also provide :science: instead of :gold:. As science multiplying buildings are more rare than gold multiplying ones, they actually often have less research than their rivals.

(4) Their civic is more of a tradeoff, while the other religions' civics are closer to an unrestricted bonus.

There are reasons so many people don't like to play the Veil, even when they're evil. If we're at the point where vampires do best as tree-huggers, then we have a problem.
1. I think you're wrong about the bazaar being a national wonder. Even if not, it should be a world wonder.
2. That's why you need a specific strategy, like spreading out your diseased corpses for a first wave/defense, and then hitting their weakened units from afar with your summoners. Also, demons (and vamps i think) are immune to disease, so they don't have a problem with diseased corpses.
4. So? To quote Kael, not every bit has to be equal, they just have to add up equally.

Also, i believe that the veil's priests require reagents, not inscence.

I think you might be right about the veil priests. Still, the point stands that they do rely pretty heavily on one resource. I'm almost positive that the Bazaar is a national wonder. Shouldn't be too hard to confirm. And why should it be a world wonder? The way this game is set up, science is hard to come by.

Your other points are valid, but they do mean that the Veil is less accessible than other religions. That means that both new players and the AI are at a significant disadvantage with it. Is that what the Veil should be?

It is Chan. I can confirm :D

Also, i believe that the veil's priests require reagents, not inscence.

Not better. The fact remains that there is no "passive" benefit or access to qualities that make the other religions viable. I dont want it to be "adding up equally" as i agree, flavor is important not bit by bit analytical balance. But i dont fear the vale. I ignore them, most people ignore them, they're like the ottoman empires, sick man of europe style. The order is a bigger issue with its champions than the veil is. The veil is, in the end, ignorable, and not a threat. Runes and Leaves and MOSTLY OO, are huge threats. I want to fear the veil, or at least be FORCED to respond to it.
-Qes

4. So? To quote Kael, not every bit has to be equal, they just have to add up equally.


So where is the up ? The down I can find plenty of, the only up I see is a uber end-game hero.

So yes, it might make sense to swith to the Veil once you can build him. But not early.

I have made that point in another post : the Veil is fine in the late game, but underpowered in the early game. There are just too many draw backs and not enough frank, unmitigated love.

The Savant has drawback (can't create culture)
The Diseased Corpse has drawbacks (makes a crappy city defender, hard to use in attack)
The Infernal Grimoire has drawback (summons a barbarian Balor)
The Demon Altar has drawback (-1 happiness)
The Holy city has drawback (entropy magic, big penalty to diplomacy)
The Ritualist has drawack (need a reagent to build)
Sacrifice the weak has drawbacks big time (-2 health, -20% GPP)

Wait... Rosier the Fallen is fine, a standard hero !

Meanwhile, all the other religions can boast of something special, something all good that doesn't come with strings attached.

If you really want every single Ashen Veil aspect to come with penalties attached, at least they should bring more benefits !

So where is the up ? The down I can find plenty of, the only up I see is a uber end-game hero.

So yes, it might make sense to swith to the Veil once you can build him. But not early.

I have made that point in another post : the Veil is fine in the late game, but underpowered in the early game. There are just too many draw backs and not enough frank, unmitigated love.

The Savant has drawback (can't create culture)
The Diseased Corpse has drawbacks (makes a crappy city defender, hard to use in attack)
The Infernal Grimoire has drawback (summons a barbarian Balor)
The Demon Altar has drawback (-1 happiness)
The Holy city has drawback (entropy magic, big penalty to diplomacy)
The Ritualist has drawack (need a reagent to build)
Sacrifice the weak has drawbacks big time (-2 health, -20% GPP)

Wait... Rosier the Fallen is fine, a standard hero !

Meanwhile, all the other religions can boast of something special, something all good that doesn't come with strings attached.

If you really want every single Ashen Veil aspect to come with penalties attached, at least they should bring more benefits !
:agree:
most definatly!-

... and that's where the Ashen Veil features we've been discussing come in. Give the Order a reason to exist, and give the Ashen Veil a powerful feature, at the same time. Also, I should mention that the late Order hero, Sphener, has the same base :strength: as Mardero, plus some nifty life/law spells.

The Ritualist has drawack (need a reagent to build)
I'd consider this a benefit; you need reagents anyway for the high mages, and this way you don't need incense.

I think civs with the holy city of a religion should be able to issue religious interdicts. If you issue an interdict against another civ none of the religious buildings (temples) work in that civ. Of course this would create a diplomacy penalty!

E.g. If you control Leaves holy city as the Bannor and you issue an interdict against the Lanun, then none of the Leaves temples in Lanun cities work - this means they lose the health bonuses etc AND can't create archers of leaves. Hence some pain!

i want ashen veil to randomly summon demons as meteors that destroy lands near but outside the ashen viel civs borders! :D

In the games I've been playing (version 15g), I've noticed that the AI civs tend to switch to "Free Religion" in the late game. Is that intended? I'm not sure if it affects religion-specific heroes, but if so, does the AI realize that?

In my opinion, it seems to take out some of the flavor, as it de-polarizes diplomatic relations. I -like- having the elves distrust me because I don't follow their religion, or having the Hippus convert to the Order and become staunch allies, or the Amurites converting to the Veil and becoming my foil. It keeps things interesting, and free religion tends to nullify that aspect in the late game.

In the games I've been playing (version 15g), I've noticed that the AI civs tend to switch to "Free Religion" in the late game. Is that intended? I'm not sure if it affects religion-specific heroes, but if so, does the AI realize that?

In my opinion, it seems to take out some of the flavor, as it de-polarizes diplomatic relations. I -like- having the elves distrust me because I don't follow their religion, or having the Hippus convert to the Order and become staunch allies, or the Amurites converting to the Veil and becoming my foil. It keeps things interesting, and free religion tends to nullify that aspect in the late game.
the ais consider heros like pop points(20?)
and they use free religion for thier advantage
they're not going to stay in a religion for your pleasure : O

In the games I've been playing (version 15g), I've noticed that the AI civs tend to switch to "Free Religion" in the late game. Is that intended? I'm not sure if it affects religion-specific heroes, but if so, does the AI realize that?

In my opinion, it seems to take out some of the flavor, as it de-polarizes diplomatic relations. I -like- having the elves distrust me because I don't follow their religion, or having the Hippus convert to the Order and become staunch allies, or the Amurites converting to the Veil and becoming my foil. It keeps things interesting, and free religion tends to nullify that aspect in the late game.

I seem to remember switching to free religion once, and losing my religious heroes. So yes, it probably happens, and the AI probably loses his heroes.

Changing "Free Religion" to "Religios Tolarence" where you have a state religion, but also get small boost from having more than one religion in a city, might solve the problem of the AI wasting their religios heros. This new civic should also decrease the "you follow a heathen religion" diplomacy modifier.

The free religion thing could still be used as trait specific civic for agnostic leaders.