Spell Sphere Nodes
[tab]Body Node
[tab]Chaos Node
[tab]Creation Node
[tab]Death Node- kills the worker that created it
[tab]Dimensional Node-
[tab]Earth Node- has a chance to pop gem and gold clusters within 1 tile
[tab]Enchantment Node
[tab]Entropy Node- builds fallout within 1 tile
[tab]Fire Node- does damage to all units within 1 tile
[tab]Law Node
[tab]Life Node- heals all untis with 1 tile
[tab]Metamagic Node
[tab]Mind Node
[tab]Nature Node- builds forests within 1 tile
[tab]Spirit Node
[tab]Water Node- builds rivers within 1 tile

Veil only improvement that destroyes the bonus but give a large benifit for a medium amount of time. (Chalid)

+Pirate Cove- Is only available to civs that start with the seafaring tech (the Lanun). Allows workers to create a cove on a coast tile (owned by the player or unowned) that can be entered by ships. While in the cove the ships gain a defensive bonus, increased heal and a slightly better site range. If a cove is in an owned tile it provides a small amount of gold. A cove can't be built within 3 tiles of another cove.

Reserved for ideas under consideration.

Ancient Forests

Spell Sphere Nodes (placed on magic nodes to make them into Fire Nodes, Air Nodes, etc)

Ancient forests: great idea.
What if they got better over time, like a cottage.
But no logging allowed in them.

Spell sphere nodes: i see why you need them. Would they give a food/ production/ commerce bonus, or just give you a needed resource.

Maybe combining this with the spell system, a spellcaster built in a civ with a magic node would start with the appropriate sphere knowledge of that type.

Just a random thought wen reading magic nodes: What about a 4th tile-yield "mana" that will be handled globally and is used for spell casting and possibly "ritual spell" and "magic unit"-construction. Any surplus should be lost at the end of the turn.

That would be difficult to get the AI to understand w/o me delving far deeper into the AI than I have currently. Still, it ought to be possible to do somehow.

Would there be any way to model Mana after Great People points? I don't know how you would tie those type of points to improvements, but the AI does know how to exchange those types of points for units or GAs.

Would there be any way to model Mana after Great People points? I don't know how you would tie those type of points to improvements, but the AI does know how to exchange those types of points for units or GAs.

I hadnt planned for mana to be a "currency" like it was in MoM. Instead I had wanted to use it just as a resource. Possibly with multiple upgrades, but I wanted to make it required for certain units, buildings, and upgrades on units.

Here's an idea for an improvement:
Dwarven Tunnels
buildable only by Dwarves, or dwarven slaves
buildable only in hills, mountain, or cities
gives dwarves in them extra movement, a defense bonus, and a first strike chance
acts as a traderoute only to other dwarven/runes civs, or cities with runes as a religion.

What about restricting the Magic Node improvement to certain terrain types?

A Earth Node might need an Mana Resource on a hill, a life node might need it to be on a Forest or on Grassland, a Air node might need flatlands, an Ice Node can be only built on Ice or Tundra (I know we have no Ice-Sphere but it is a very good example), a water node only near a river and so forth.

This would make some kinds of Mana be more rare then others but should nevertheless give a player choice between several kinds of diffenent nodes for each mana ressource.

What about restricting the Magic Node improvement to certain terrain types?

A Earth Node might need an Mana Resource on a hill, a life node might need it to be on a Forest or on Grassland, a Air node might need flatlands, an Ice Node can be only built on Ice or Tundra (I know we have no Ice-Sphere but it is a very good example), a water node only near a river and so forth.

This would make some kinds of Mana be more rare then others but should nevertheless give a player choice between several kinds of diffenent nodes for each mana ressource.

I hate to do that because I really do want to give the player complete control over what form of magic he wants to pursue. Instead I was considering have the node effect the region (instead of the region effect the node).

This would be mostly for flavor, I listed a few exampels above and none of them are too impactive. I just think it would be neat to see a water node surrounded by rivers, a earth node with a few resources around it, a nature node surrounded by forests, etc.

Yeah thats good for me.

But one other thing:

Death Node- kills the worker that created it

Workers do build nodes? I would prefer Adepts and Mages to do this.

Workers do build nodes? I would prefer Adepts and Mages to do this.

I like this as well, but the death node could still kill the adept that built it,

Dimensional Node-Allows airdropping untis from the node.
Law Node-Gives +35% tile defense?
Metamagic Node-Creates an anti-magic sheild for it and the adjacent spaces.

Yeah thats good for me.

But one other thing:



Workers do build nodes? I would prefer Adepts and Mages to do this.

The reason I have workers doing it is because the AI understands using workers to improve resources. I'll switch it to the adepts (your right it does make more sense), assign the worker ai to adepts, lower their strength to 0 and see if the ai handles it well.

Chaos Node - Random node effect, chosen from the list of the others. Perhaps the effects change every 10 turns.

Creation Node - Periodically Vitalizes the land around it.(might be a little too similar to Nature, though)

Enchantment Node - Enchants weapons, giving military units passing through it a low temporary strength bonus, which disappears after next battle.

Mind Node - units within 1 tile immune to mental spells

Spirit Node - Occasionally spawns rather weak barbarian ghosts(or ghostly allies? Or both with 50% chance of each?).

The reason I have workers doing it is because the AI understands using workers to improve resources. I'll switch it to the adepts (your right it does make more sense), assign the worker ai to adepts, lower their strength to 0 and see if the ai handles it well.

Hmm might lead to the same problem as with Aprenntices. As soon as the upgrade to Mages/Summoners becomes available AI will stop building nodes due to upgrading all their Adepts.

Possible solutions that come to my mind:
- leave it in for the Worker and simple add the ability to Adepts?
- give the Ability to Mages too?
- create a Special Worker for the AI only that can build both and for human players differentiate between Workers and Adepts. (By using that cannot_build-funtion) ?
- as soon as we have an AI function that allows to upgrade the land automatically via magical spells add that abity as spell to all mages and use this one instead.

Hmm might lead to the same problem as with Aprenntices. As soon as the upgrade to Mages/Summoners becomes available AI will stop building nodes due to upgrading all their Adepts.

Possible solutions that come to my mind:
- leave it in for the Worker and simple add the ability to Adepts?
- give the Ability to Mages too?
- create a Special Worker for the AI only that can build both and for human players differentiate between Workers and Adepts. (By using that cannot_build-funtion) ?
- as soon as we have an AI function that allows to upgrade the land automatically via magical spells add that abity as spell to all mages and use this one instead.

I like the idea to have it on workers and adepts, just make it take longer for workers. I will do that.

In this SMAC like mod they are using a Improvement that gives a big reward at the beginning and degenerates with time. Something like that would be really Veil Flavour... sucking the live form the land... we just ned some barren terrain that is no longer usable for anything.

Or we could do something like this with the one or other ressource? You build the improvement and the ressource is gone but you can use its power (production commerce or foodwise) for 20 or 50 turns..

In this SMAC like mod they are using a Improvement that gives a big reward at the beginning and degenerates with time. Something like that would be really Veil Flavour... sucking the live form the land... we just ned some barren terrain that is no longer usable for anything.

Or we could do something like this with the one or other ressource? You build the improvement and the ressource is gone but you can use its power (production commerce or foodwise) for 20 or 50 turns..

I like it, Ill add it to the ideas list!

Is anyone working on pedia, strategy, or any descriptions of the various nodes and what they actually do for your Adepts? I'm choosing blindly just to try them out, but would jot stuff down for XML editing if no one else is.

Is anyone working on pedia, strategy, or any descriptions of the various nodes and what they actually do for your Adepts? I'm choosing blindly just to try them out, but would jot stuff down for XML editing if no one else is.

All the documentation is being done here on the site for now. At some point I will feed it into the mod but right now with things switching around it isn't wirth the time to doc it in the game.

Fair enough. Once I play more the different types of nodes will become clearer.

Right now pillaging your own nodes allows the player to optimze their own Adepts. I think we should prevent that.
As mechanism i would propose the following.
Upon pillaging not the orginal mana resource is produced but a kind of discharged Mana.
This Resource allows to build an Improvemnt that needs about 20 Turns to grow. When grown a normal Mana resource is generated. The growth might be either automatic or need the tile to be worked (which i would prefer, but it might complicate things for the AI) So Pillaging Nodes is still a valid strategy but comes with a cost (Mana not available for 20 Turns and one bad Plot must be worked).

Im adding a speacial treatment for the mana resources at the moment. This will be triggerd by setting the Bonusclass of unimproves mana to BONUSCLASS_RAWMANA and the bonusclass of improved mana to BONUSCLASS_MANA. This makes ist easy to add additional mana types, add tooltips and AI-behavior without hardcoding the manas tehemselves and without adding additional XMLTags.

Im adding a speacial treatment for the mana resources at the moment. This will be triggerd by setting the Bonusclass of unimproves mana to BONUSCLASS_RAWMANA and the bonusclass of improved mana to BONUSCLASS_MANA. This makes ist easy to add additional mana types, add tooltips and AI-behavior without hardcoding the manas tehemselves and without adding additional XMLTags.

Thats cool, Im not sure what the relationship is between the bonusclass and the map maker. If there isn't one then this is fine. Basically as long as the random map generator is still randomly depostiting mana nodes then this sounds great.

If that's the case, can the improvement be pillaged later and changed?

At the moment the resource goes instanly back to a neutral mana node. We might change this and add an deactivated mana resource that will have to be activated with an improvement, maybe like a town or something (needding 10 to 20 turns to become an mana resource again). Because otherwise you could tailor each adept by pillaging and rebuilding nodes to your wishes.

Thats my proposal anyway.

The problem with requiring the tile to be reworked in order to regenerate, is that that would mean that if some barbarian pillaged a mana resource out of range of your towns, it would not come back unless you went and built a town there for that express purpose!

I know that would annoy me.

You are absolutely right. How about: when you have placed the improvement you get a chance for reactivation each turn? Like with the growth of ancient forests.

So you could get it back next turn, or you could get it back in 30 turns? That might work, but the problem with that is that some people would just reload and reload until they got the desired result.

Is there a way of making the resource disappear when pillaged, then reappear in the same square after a set amount of time?

I dont think that people will klick end of the turn so long but i have another idea. we do it like towns (fixed number of turns) but count up one each turn regardless if the improvement is worked. should not be too difficult

That sounds like the best option to me. But set the turn requirement to about 10 turns, not 20. That would make rebuilding mana resources hard as heck if you lose some in a war.

Mana does not turn to Raw Mane when the node is overbuilt. Either we prohibit overbuilding or we have to think of something clever/include it somewhere in the SDK (Might want to do this after we included the AIBonusAndMana Module).

Kael shall i incorporate some code for this into it? Maybe the deactivated Mana resources as well?

Mana does not turn to Raw Mane when the node is overbuilt. Either we prohibit overbuilding or we have to think of something clever/include it somewhere in the SDK (Might want to do this after we included the AIBonusAndMana Module).

Kael shall i incorporate some code for this into it? Maybe the deactivated Mana resources as well?

I'll wipe the raw mana node in python. It will only be one line.

Im not to worried about tailoring adepts because the build time is so long to improve nodes that it isnt worthwile to do. Maybe we just add a small chance (5%) that nodes are destroyed entirely on pillage? That should scare anyone off playign with them, and force players to protect them a little more.

Hmm.. in thinking about it I would rather disallow the cottage on mana nodes than wipe it. Hmm..

Bonus makes valid with bMakesValid of 0 might do this, ill try it.

Mana does not turn to Raw Mane when the node is overbuilt. Either we prohibit overbuilding or we have to think of something clever/include it somewhere in the SDK (Might want to do this after we included the AIBonusAndMana Module).

Kael shall i incorporate some code for this into it? Maybe the deactivated Mana resources as well?

If it sounds good to you could you see if you could find a way to block cottages on mana nodes.

Do you think giving a 5% change to lose the node entirely on pillage is a good simple way to deal with "mana swapping"?

Yeap i think that 5% chanche would be a good idea. I'll look into the cottage thing later. Now i go back to the dragon.. I'm making real good progress at the moment :)

Yeap i think that 5% chanche would be a good idea. I'll look into the cottage thing later. Now i go back to the dragon.. I'm making real good progress at the moment :)

Woo hoo! :D

Hmm ok have an solution for the overbuilt problem. Just have to code it ;).

Battlegrounds--rare at first, with a 1% chance of being created on any tile without resources or cites when a unit dies. When improved by workers or prophet types to consecrated battlefields, +1 commerce and they could:
supply a small amount of culture each turn (like 1 or .5 if possible) centered on that square,
Any unit who gains exp. while standing on that square or attacking into it gets double the amount. (excluding hero auto exp, maybe mages too.)
or Perhaps also a 1-2% chance of spawning a nightmare each turn, controlled by that player or maybe barbs.

Dimensional Rifts--can be improved by adept class or workers into portal gates granting 3-5 exp to any unit summoned on that tile.

sorry for the repeat post, I come up with lots of ideas at work all day.
How about traps to make recons units more fun?
Traps would:
+take 1-4 turns to set up.
+only be built by one specific recon unit
+only allow one per unit of that type, just like the skeleton summon
+be invisible to all players who don't have open borders agreement with the creator
+only be built on unimproved terrain, but borders shouldn't matter.
+would last until they effected one unit per level of the setter, unless pillaged before
+when set off, would have the same diplomatic effect of pillaging their land, i.e., other civs would declare war. (so you shouldn't set them in unclaimed land if you aren't willing to suffer the consequences, but civs with open borders could see them and should be programmed to avoid them.
Traps and effects (untested, should of course be tested and adjusted)
Scout-Snare: Would cast entangle on the next unit to enter tile (one unit per level of scout)
Hunter-Pit trap: Would do .1 damage per level of hunter, and charm any animals hit.
Ranger-Spike Pit: Would do .2 damage per level of ranger and cast entangle
Beast Master-Snake Pit: Would do .3 damage per level of beast master and cast whither
Assassain-Poison Arrow trap: Would have a 20 + Assassain level - victim strength % chance of killing unit setting it off. (Or if too complicated, set 15%)
Shadow-Scrying Arrow: Would plant a scrying stone on the target, granting the Shadow's player line of sight of that unit for 1 turn per shadow level.
Sorry if traps have been discussed, haven't seen it. Guild Wars Icons would work great here, btw. ;)

I really like these ideas. Kinda diablo II though...

I was just wondering if it would be possible to have canals that would be like roads but would also allow ships to travel along them in the same way as pirate coves. They could also be used to irrigate land if they were connected to fresh water

Since it does add to the confusion are we planning on renaming one of the double improvements, "Elven XXX". No, not Elven porn either.... :shake:

Since it does add to the confusion are we planning on renaming one of the double improvements, "Elven XXX". No, not Elven porn either.... :shake:

Yeah, Ill change it.

Yeah, Ill change it.

The power of the Elves strikes again! ;)

I was just wondering if it would be possible to have canals that would be like roads but would also allow ships to travel along them in the same way as pirate coves. They could also be used to irrigate land if they were connected to fresh water

This is a ncie idea for a late-game improvement. Hard for the ai though...

One aspect of CivIV I feel is missing is the better usage of defensive structures outside of cities. There is the fort improvement, but since zone of control do not exists, there are not very usefull. Basically, you can build a line of forts and stack them with units, but once the line is broken at one point, the whole defensive line is useless. This design has two flaws: it takes a lot of time to build all those forts, and it is very costly in units since all those forts have to be occupied by one unit in order to block enemy units.

I hereby propose a new terrain improvement: the wall. Building the wall destroys all other improvements on the tile. The presence of the wall prohibits all units from entering the tile, except for recon units and workers. The presence of the wall also inhibit the building of roads or of any other type of improvements.

The wall is constructed by worker or any unit that has the ability to build improvements. The wall can be constructed on any tile inside your borders except for tiles with rivers. Building a wall should take between 6-8 turns (tests required).

The wall can be destroyed by catapult/canon. It would be very nice if walls would have a strength in % and is only destroyed when this % reaches 0. The wall cannot be pillaged.

There could be different type of walls: wood, stone and 'concrete' (can't think of a fantasy term for this). The difference between the types would be the strength in %. It would be possible to upgrade the wall from one type to the other. However, perhaps stone and 'concrete' could have a ressource requirement.

From a gameplay perspective, the wall would effectively allows civs to create choke points (with cities and forts) in their territory (especialy on borders of hostile civs), adding a whole new depth to the game. Allowing recon unit to move through it would also improve the value of recon units, which I feel is currently very low.

One aspect of CivIV I feel is missing is the better usage of defensive structures outside of cities. There is the fort improvement, but since zone of control do not exists, there are not very usefull. Basically, you can build a line of forts and stack them with units, but once the line is broken at one point, the whole defensive line is useless. This design has two flaws: it takes a lot of time to build all those forts, and it is very costly in units since all those forts have to be occupied by one unit in order to block enemy units.

I hereby propose a new terrain improvement: the wall. Building the wall destroys all other improvements on the tile. The presence of the wall prohibits all units from entering the tile, except for recon units and workers. The presence of the wall also inhibit the building of roads or of any other type of improvements.

The wall is constructed by worker or any unit that has the ability to build improvements. The wall can be constructed on any tile inside your borders except for tiles with rivers. Building a wall should take between 6-8 turns (tests required).

The wall can be destroyed by catapult/canon. It would be very nice if walls would have a strength in % and is only destroyed when this % reaches 0. The wall cannot be pillaged.

There could be different type of walls: wood, stone and 'concrete' (can't think of a fantasy term for this). The difference between the types would be the strength in %. It would be possible to upgrade the wall from one type to the other. However, perhaps stone and 'concrete' could have a ressource requirement.

From a gameplay perspective, the wall would effectively allows civs to create choke points (with cities and forts) in their territory (especialy on borders of hostile civs), adding a whole new depth to the game. Allowing recon unit to move through it would also improve the value of recon units, which I feel is currently very low.

I wanted this when I added the sentry tower in (origionally it was player buildable, but a random map feature). I wanted players to be able to build gates, walls and towers around their empires.

The problem? As always, the AI.

I couldnt figure out a way to get the AI to build intelligent walls and react to walls without considerable ai rewriting (and if we were going to do a bunch of ai rewriting we should spend it teaching the ai to cast spells).

So I agree completly with the idea, but its to much effort to do right now.

*imagines the great wall of Perpentach*
Well maybe in shawod or ice...

*imagines the great wall of Perpentach*

No doubt he ordered it built from the top down in one section, supported on pillars 12 feet off the ground in another section, and completly made out of ladders for a third...

~p

Another problem I could see with the wall: If the garrisoned fortifications along the wall are very strong, it will be easier to simply destroy a section of the wall. But if the wall is stronger/unbreakable, then the player might just build all wall, and no forts. It would prevet his own passage too, but in many cases that wouldn't be a great problem.
Perhaps we'd have to force at least one fort for each wall.

Idea:

~How about a fishing village improvment?

~could be built on top of existing villages or towns on coastal squares.

~could provide and extra food for all ajacent coastal squares.

~can not be built within 3 squares of another fishing village.

~could allow owner's ships to be repaired there.

Woah its lamas. Where have you been?

Its a nice idea, but i think its too much like the pirate's cove.
How about making it a city improvement for cities that had a water resource? It could give like +3 food.

Lol, ive got exams tomorow and been studying, just thought id give myself a relaxation time. and played FfHII;)

I thought the pirate cove was only avaliable for Seafaring civs, and that this could be for all civs. also the pirate cove gives gold where the fishing village gives food.

It would be very helpful if we could call up a list of active Nodes. I want to check if I have a particular type of Node or not so I don't duplicate my efforts.

It would be very helpful if we could call up a list of active Nodes. I want to check if I have a particular type of Node or not so I don't duplicate my efforts.

Just check one of your cities connected to the trade network. They show up as strategic resources.

Thanks. :blush:

A mine gives 2 hammers, but doesn't get better with technology.
A windmill with full technology gives 1 food, 1 hammer and 2 commerce. Doesn't that make the windmill too attractive in the end? What would you think of letting mines give an additional hammer with some late-game tech?

Mines get an additional commerce from Dwarven Mining. They also get a commerce from being on a river, I think.

Windmills also get an additional commerce from the financial trait. So eg when playing with that Khazad leader with the financial trait, building windmills becomes more profitable than mines. Doesn't feel very dwarvy to me. :(

Windmills also get an additional commerce from the financial trait. So eg when playing with that Khazad leader with the financial trait, building windmills becomes more profitable than mines. Doesn't feel very dwarvy to me. :(

Yes, except that you have to wait a long time for windmills.

Oh yeah, there's also the fact that mines pull up copper/iron/mithril/gold/gems; the chance for that to happen might need a little increase, though, since there are fewer mineables than in vanilla (copper, iron, silver, gold, gems, aluminum, and I believe uranium).

I think that there should be a dwarven mine improvement that can be built in mountains. The mine automatically gives +3 hammers and +3 Gold. It also automatically discovers copper/iron/mithril/gold/gems. The mine also allows passage through that mountain. It would make sense because Dwarves are always working under mountains.

Slightly overpowered perhaps? But yes i agree with you totally. What if all the mine did was automatically discover one of the metals? (or gems). That way it would be more balanced but still cool.

How about introducing a new Ressource that will not be placed on the map but can only be dicovered by a dwarfen mine?

How about introducing a new Ressource that will not be placed on the map but can only be dicovered by a dwarfen mine?

Silver?
Message too short

How about introducing a new Ressource that will not be placed on the map but can only be dicovered by a dwarfen mine?
Silver?


Really, dwarven mines should uncover mithril, if we're being "traditional".

How about allowing a new improvement, "Dwarven Mine" that grants production and commerce, with an increased chance of finding a resource. The Khazad and Luchiurp could build them right away, but everyone else would need to be Runes of Kilmorph with knowledge of Dwarven Mining.

Alternatively, for the Luchiurp and Khazad, the Dwarven Mine would replace the normal mine and normal cottages, and evolve like a cottage?

Forts need some work I think. In Vanilla Civ they're pretty useless, with Bloom spell they're somewhat useful though it may be a bug (if it is a bug then they're even worse than Vanilla Civ). Why? Fort adds +25% def bonus, and best scenario without Bloom is placing it on a hill (placing it on woods or a jungle destroys them, reducing def by 50%) which is still only +50% and only as good as a forest alone, and worse than a forest on a hill.

With bloom you're better off just putting a forest instead of a fort (+50% instead of +25%) [assuming that the ability to Bloom on a fort is a bug]

Are there special bonuses I'm missing?

If not, Forts need something, some ideas:
+50% def bonus or even +75%, but require Stone resource to build
Buildable in neutral lands, maybe even enemy lands (I think they're only buildable in your own borders)
Buildable by military units (long build time, possibly consume the unit)
Slow XP gain to stationed units
Adjacency autoattacks (was in Civ 3, but not sure if its in this Civ; a unit from fort attacks any enemy unit that moves from one adjacent square to another adjacent square, with respect to Fort)
Free Withdrawl Promotion while in Fort attacking adjacent squares (maybe only for Ranged units)
Ability to build in forests/jungles without removing the forests/jungles
Acts like an Outpost as well (I have yet to see anything in Civ4 like the Outposts in Civ3, but maybe I'm blind; collects resource out of borders)
Unit promotion City Defense is applied while defending in Fort (could already be, not sure)
Some production or trade bonus
Possibility of spawning basic unit (maybe trigger if cottages or other improvements nearby are pillaged)

Anything to make forts better, they just seem so useless currently, and they should be fun.

Maybe do different grades of Forts using the Cottage system of growth (possibly requiring certain resources for better Forts), like:

Woodfort
requires iron or copper or clay (something to bond wood)
+25% def bonus
some of the lesser bonuses listed above

Stonefort
requires stone
+50% def bonus
some of the better bonuses listed above or in better amounts

Castle
requires stone and copper(or iron or mithril)
+75% def bonus
some of the best bonuses listed above or in even better amounts

That would make them not only useful, but also fun investments to be protected and worked on/towards.

We've considered much in the way of fortifications and castles, but haven't done anything yet because it's hard to program the Ai correctly. I like your ideas though...

I've checked ingame on some of the things I wasn't sure about, and fortresses don't have any of the neat things it had in previous Civs, only +25% def bonus, nothing else, no benefits of any kind are stated in the Civilopedia (in Civ 3 I think they also ended an enemies turn in they entered it, basically making it a high movement penalty square to enemies as well).

The AI is quite smart about its usage of the current Forts (they intelligently don't bother making them :D), I can see how some of the ideas would definately require some AI changes (worrying about adjacency moves and the like). Still it'd be nice to build useful forts.

I've checked ingame on some of the things I wasn't sure about, and fortresses don't have any of the neat things it had in previous Civs, only +25% def bonus, nothing else, no benefits of any kind are stated in the Civilopedia (in Civ 3 I think they also ended an enemies turn in they entered it, basically making it a high movement penalty square to enemies as well).

The AI is quite smart about its usage of the current Forts (they intelligently don't bother making them :D), I can see how some of the ideas would definately require some AI changes (worrying about adjacency moves and the like). Still it'd be nice to build useful forts.

Yeah, I would love to have a more full fortification system. Sentry towers, gates, walls and an Ai they built them intellegently. But the AI doesn't use forts, and if we increase their value then we give human players an advantage over the AI.

Problem: Forts not being built.
What about treating it like a resource gathering building (quarry, plantations, mine, etc.) but for a non-resource (read: no resource there)?
Workers will build them outside of towns (at this point also within city tiles. which is unintelligent but a start) within borders on any tile lacking a resource.

Problem: Forts not being built in intelligent places.
What about either directly excluding city tiles (read: any tile that can be used for food/shields/trade) or make the AI's importance to build Forts less than the AI's importance to build any other tile improvement within City tiles?
In either case Forts won't be built in tiles used by the City (in the second option they'll build them in some places but intelligently, like Desert squares which have no food/shields/trade). This would create Forts everywhere within Civ Borders that wouldn't be better off with some other improvement instead.

Problem: Forts not being occupied.
What about treating Forts like a resource (as far as the AI is concerned; once built)?
This would encourage the AI to place troops on them.


These considerations, with a Civ 3 throwback (forts remove all movement points of enemies who enter it), would make an effective Wall surrounding their borders which would slow down any enemies trying to rush through, and encourage border guarding (since forts would be in the outer edges of the borders and have a value for troops to guard), without taking up tiles that could benefit a city.

Thats a pretty crude version of what could be done, its wasteful and although it would have no drastic negative effects other than wasted worker time, it would place some forts in tiles that arent likely to ever have an attack (like a coastal tile where all the tiles surrounding it are also within the cultural borders).
An added intelligent requirement on this could be that forts are only built on tiles that are within the civs territory with a land square adjacent that isn't within the civs territory (and so only protecting places where an enemy could conceivable walk in from outside).
Another intelligent placement could be hills within the civs territory that isn't a city tile.
Maybe make it unlikely to build them, or place their importance low to slow down fort building if its rampant, or make it more likely for Defender trait leaders.

All that together should make a fairly intelligent use of forts, if you throw in several of the other ideas from my previous post (personally I love the cottage type upgrading, makes them investments) it'd be fair to the AI players and a nice and useful addition.

Aren't there any mod comps out there that deal with forts and trying to make them better? :hmm: V. Soma was working on something a while back...let me check.

Just an idea i had while not doing anything:

Arcane Road:

Roads that are actually shorter if you walk on them properly through arcane means.

"...with that said, we'll be taking the Mage's Path to Enaillellion today. For those who've never used it before, be careful not to step off the road or loose the runes that our company Adept is passing out to you.
If you do you may never catch up to us. And you'll catch hell from me if you do." - Hamallandel, Amurite Commander.

Replaces Vanilla Railroads
Looks like a normal road, but a little bit different. Darker, streighter, narrower, glittering if possible.

Randomly created by map script to exist on fresh world as ruins of the Age of Magic. Near those anchient temples and watchtowers preferably.

Initially provides the normal 2x movment of roads,
But once you understand the magic of it with Alteration it provides 4x (5x?) movement

Buildable with Strength of Will & Mithril Working & enchantment mana & takes a long time to build.
Some additional limit to them so they cannot be spammed would be good as well.

It'd be neat if Dwarven mines acted like tunnels to other Dwarven mines in adjacent tiles, specifically for the purpose of allowing movement for all units from a hill tile to a peak tile.

ive put this in resources but i thought i might put this in improvements also.

i wondered if certain things may get multiple improvement types like change wheat to grain then allow it to have farms or wineries on it so you can get either
a. wheat or
b. beer from the source

also change banasas to plain fruit and allow it to get both
fruit and wine promotions.
this may not possible but i think tis realstic to have multiple things being able to be built on one resource

City Ruins are technically an improvement, so I'll mention this here.

After a few turns city ruins could spawn bandits, and then after a longer period they could become haunted ruins and spawn undeads, units entering the tile could become diseased. Some barbarian units could try protecting/hiding in ruins.

Instead of making ruins pillageable (as they are now.. you pillage them and theyre gone), you could make it necessary to "cleanse" them to remove them.


Tribal Villages are also considered improvements (in the world builder), and I was wondering if there could be some way of spawning new ones, or of really old ones forming into cities if left alone.
On that note I always liked the idea of barbarian cities (or collections of connected barb cities) possibly becoming full fledged civilizations if built up enough (turning into Clan of Embers). It'd be neat if you wiped out the Clan of Embers only to find them resurfacing from some barb cities later in the game, or playing a game without them at all and then having the new threat materialize.
And also the converse, like if a civ loses its capital while on strike and is generally unhappy then they revert to barbarian cities, and if cities shrink (like because of cult of the dragon removing all culture) they become tribal villages.

Added:
I'd like to mention forts again because I miss them being useful. I've been thinking about the arguement of "the AI doesn't know how to use them" and I realized that happens regardless: Instead of forts I just use bloom on hills as my "forts." The AI doesn't know how to do this either, but its possible.

Forts are in the game, but they are so uselesss... I just wish they had +100% def or something (like City def promotions adding to fort def % as well) to make them worthwile (atm you put an archer on a hill/forest with the second forest defense promotion and you get +25% from hill +50% from forest +100% (woodsman 2) which is nearly 4 times better than a hillfort (+25% from fort +25% from hill with no promotions that are gonna help except hills ones.. but the hill forests get that possibility too).

If it's just me who thinks so it'd be nice to figure out a way to just improve them myself, I miss good forts!

I was thinking about goody huts and ruins a bit as well. I like your idea of ruins occasionally turning "haunted" or being a haven for brigands (though it sounds like it may be similar to the monster resources specced in Shadow).

I had been thinking about instead of having ruins just pillaged (like a normal improvement) or picked up (like a normal goody hut), making them require an "explore" worker-type ability, perhaps for raiders or recon units and have it turn up a chance for goodyhut-esque rewards. Alternately, a new improvement called "dungeon" could be created for wilderness-type areas with this sort of effect.

I'd also like to see a wider variety of goody hut risks/rewards. Maybe teaching the unit a spell or ability, casting a ritual spell on the unit (good or bad - increase/decrease iPower/Movement, add promotions, etc), updating the "You gain a warrior/scout" to scale a bit depending on the age you're in, updating the barbarian pops to scale depending on the age you're in, (eventually) dropping hints of some long-lost artifact, telling of some distant civilization (like the MAP result, but instead of revealing nearby areas, revealing a small plot of the distant civ's lands), etc.

Anyway, just some recent brainstorming... =)

Fort

For starters you could just make forts buildable over forests and jungle in Civ4BuildInfos.xml.

Maybe forts could be upgradeable a couple different ways, only one way per fort. They'd all retain the original +25% defense, and I think making city garrison (and raider) work with them is a good idea, the same bonus or perhaps half as much. Also, I don't know hos it is now, but forts should not be able to be built w/in 3 (or so) spaces of each other.
Fort upgrades:
Castle: +75% defense
inn: +x% heal, +1 commerce if worked, and/or +1 trade route in nearest city
Sentry Tower: Same as existing improvement
Trade post: +1 culture/turn (centered on the fort.) Would have to be availible a bit late or take a long time to build to prevent city blocking early.
Dungeon: umm, don't know, just sounded cool, maybe sac slaves here for some effect...

I was thinking itd be neat to be able to make sentry towers, and that inn idea is really neat too. Building forts on forests would help the situation for sure.

I was thinking itd be neat to be able to make sentry towers, and that inn idea is really neat too. Building forts on forests would help the situation for sure.

I once planned to have a whole line of defences. I imagined countries would be able to build walls around their empires complete with guard towers and gates. But the problem with it is that the AI doesnt understand appropriate use of them. So I couldnt make the improvements that strategic (hence the random sentry towers instead of the ability to build them).

Floating Island: Units In Square are unattackable except by Air Units. Units in square slowly lose health (Lack of food) Only Able to be created by a high level Arcane spell caster.

Graveyard: Necromancy Only. Plains or Grassland or Desert or Tundra. Square will randomly generate Skelitons as Barbarians in Good or Neutral or unowned land, as owned Units In Evil Land.

Eagles Nest: On Peaks only (Dont ask me how to get up there to build it). Randomly Generates Giant Eagles that will engage enemy Troops (Like Valourous promotion)

Infernal Pit: Sacrifice Unit In Pit to have a chance at being given a Demon Unit. (Any Evil Land)

Fortress: (Up to 3 kinds.) 50% Bonus on defence AND Bonus v. Calvary. / Bonus V. Archery. / Zone of Control like Civ2.

Sand Kings: Desert Only (Desert Peoples can build only) +2 Gold from Carcases, -20% Str any enemy unit standing in square.

Arcane Island: Water Improvement(Possible?) Buildable only By Arcane Barge. +2 Hammers -3 gold. (OO civs only?)

-Deleted-

I have an idea for the malakim: Whenever they build a road across a desert, their is a chance of discovering an oasis.

-Deleted-

I have an idea for the malakim: Whenever they build a road across a desert, their is a chance of discovering an oasis.

Oh this is so much better of an idea than "improving" the desert tiles. Just every road construction like a X% chance. Yes!
Now if it was also HARDER for other civs to manage / negotiate desert, all the better.
-Qes

Don't forget incense usually appears in deserts, and is a valuable strategic resource, so we can't cripple other civs too much in them without changing that.

Don't oasises take an additional movement point?

Yup.

- Niilo

Possible forrest improvement -- Brambles.

There is ample opportunity for mobility in the game, but little one can do to slow down their opponents.
I suggest the addition of a brambles improvement to forrest plots with the following effects:

+2 movement cost
+1 food

and, if it is possible to hurt an enemy entering a plot,
5% damage to living units entering or attacking into plot

This improvement could supply users with forrest plots that feed themselves and it would add an interesting mechanic to counter all the fast moving units in the game.

Whaling Boats. They really need a huge boost, I'd say.

As rare as those whales are, I'd like to see something like 3:food:3:hammers:3:commerce: from an improved whale ocean tile, or a maximum of 5:food:3:hammers:4:commerce: for Hannah with a lighthouse.

not sure if its possible , but what if deserts gave +1 Hammer +1 Commerce but only Malikim can use/see the tile for what it gives. then allow malikim to build a few improvements on them. Perhaps some Malikim exclusive improvements similar to the elven improvements. Malikim Farms that use oasis as freshwater irrigation for farms.

Cottage is also a good improvement but i think they should be capped at hamlet or village while in a desert. in a normal tile they can/should be able to grow up to town but not in a desert.

likewise i think this should hold true for elves. Town+Ancient Forest is ridiculous so why not cap it off at hamlet/village. towns need space and they are building in a limited area (forest)

Instead of wanting to give the Malakim permanent desert production boni, why not simply see them as people who start out as desert nomads, but what they really want is create a fertile paradise (eg like those Dune guys)? Them continuing to worship the sun during a desert nomad -> garden of Eden evolution still makes sense, as the sun makes plants grow.

I liek that- Perhaps all of the deserts under their rule have a small chance each turn of becoming grasslands?

Or just give them water mana, if a minor change is preferred?

I just had a crazy idea for deserts and Malakim.

An improvement that has absolutely no phsycial representation on the map.

Bare with me.

Call it "Obolisk" (working title)
It could only be built by adepts or disciples units, or mayhaps that torch guy thing. (If the AI Needs it...then <sigh> workers)

The "Obolisk" improvement would provide 1:hammers: and 2 :commerce: and 2:food: . Essentially it'd be desert that would be productive only for the malakim, and wouldnt create any sort of "improvment sprawl" that plagues ffh. It'd be barly visable, or NOT visable. It should, regardless, Be pillageable.

The excuse could be that the "Obolisk" improvement is some small shrine that allows the growth of wonderous material Amanita Muscaria (Halluciagenic Egyptian Mushroom considered the "food of the gods") and this Amanita Muscaria provides the above incomes. It is ONLY useable by the malakim in ceramonies and the like, so its not a tradeable/valueable resource.

Net Results - A possible 2 :food: 2 :hammers: 2 :commerce: square that would be pretty tasty to malakim civs. The Downside? They dislike Shade, give them -1 :hammers: in all forest types, and -1 :food: in jungle.

The natural inclination would be for the malakim to spread to more open areas, and away from conjested woods and jungle.

Perhaps also provide a building, that could only be built ON a desert square, I.e. the city has to be ON the desert. This building would provide the city center with +1 :food: and +2 :commerce:

This would also increase the wish for malakim players to scorch the living daylights out of everything. Downside? Maybe -1 :hammers: from mines?

-Qes

EDIT: I know i said earlier i didnt want the Desert to ever be "useful" but there really isnt ever a push for the malakim to be IN desert, this could push them in that direction.

EDIT2: Renamed the improvement "obolisk" personally i think that the thing in city centers could also be called the "monolith". Obolisks in SMAC provided 2 nutriants, 2 mineral, and 2 energy, exactly what this would supply. it was a be-all standard for a good tile, but not a highly worthy tile late game.

EDIT: I know i said earlier i didnt want the Desert to ever be "useful" but there really isnt ever a push for the malakim to be IN desert, this could push them in that direction.

The Malakim don't want to destroy the world. It just doesn't make sense to give the Malakim boni to desertify. People live in marginal lands because they have no other choice, not because they want to.

The Malakim don't want to destroy the world. It just doesn't make sense to give the Malakim boni to desertify. People live in marginal lands because they have no other choice, not because they want to.
yes. The malakim connection with deserts is fighitng capability.

The Malakim don't want to destroy the world. It just doesn't make sense to give the Malakim boni to desertify. People live in marginal lands because they have no other choice, not because they want to.

I agree. But the association of desert and malakim is really underplayed in FfH, at least so i feel.

To have a legitimate reason to have the malakim IN desert, would require some excuse for how they adapted to it. Giving them production boni pushes the envelope, i know, but also creates a reason for seeing the malakim IN the desert.

Otherwise, the Malakim will be in goregeous grassland/forest expanses just like everyone else. Not a lot of diversity when everyone has the same thing.

Perhaps if everyone wanted the same thing, but not all could have the same, thing, that'd be good. But as is, everyone terraforms, and everyone eventually GETs grasslands and forests.
-Qes

EDIT: @loki, Exactly. I want it to be limited to that too. But what reason would the Malakim ever be in desert if they didnt have to be? IF they're flavor comes from being desert folk type survivors, and their coolness from enduring harsh conditions. If they're never IN those conditions, because they dont willingly expand into Those conditions, why are they specialized for those conditions? Sort of an evolution vs design, vs opportunity issue.

Does the land make a people? Or the people make a land? I always believed the former. But with civ, we dont have blank-slate civilizations becoming specific "honed" civilizations. We have honed civilizations fit to a profile, one that they may not actually embody in any given game.

The Landlocked Lanun. The Desert Doviello, The Lushvale Malakim, The Forest flat-land dwarves, the Mountainous highland elves. While, cool for an "offkilter" sort of feel, unless each civilization is driven to WANT to be in their particular set of lands through boni etc, then they will chose to expand to wherever is "best" for them, which may NOT be what they are specialized (or flavorly intended) to be specialists for.

EDIT2: If the civs started in their appropriate lands, then it wouldnt matter, it would be self-defining. But when its random and they start wherever, willynilly, then there really isnt a reason for their specialization. Why would the malakim be excellent at traversing desert, if they'd not seen one till the 600th turn? Why are the doviello more frosty, if they spawned from hot steamy jungles? Why are dwarven mines so wonderful if most of their civilzation has grown up in plains and fields? Why do the Lanun have superb ships if they only reach the sea after 400 turns? These questions become blaring without reasons for expanse, or careful map placement.

I'd suggest to play with dreiche2's map scripts (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=183924) which give certain civs fitting starting conditions, including the Malakim in a desert area. Then the goal for them rightly so becomes not to actively seek out deserts, but get out of them asap. :D

I'd suggest to play with dreiche2's map scripts (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=183924) which give certain civs fitting starting conditions, including the Malakim in a desert area. Then the goal for them rightly so becomes not to actively seek out deserts, but get out of them asap. :D

I hope that these map scripts are enhanced and continued to be improved.

But, fundamentally, the nature of specaialization occurs because of the adaptation, necessetated generally from lack of other options, to a given condition.

Assuming the Malakim were able to escape the deserts, perhaps with but ONE city in or near them. Why are they specialized? Does mere contact beget specialization?

Would the Lanun holding one port city legitimize their expertise in shipcraft?

My arguement is fundamentally that not only must specialization include access, but more than that, majority of a civilziation to aquire that much adaptation to a given condition. Therefore, Dwarves must pursue mountains, elves forests, Lanun the sea, Malakim the deserts, and the Doviello the frosty parts of the globe (when not raping and/or pillaging).

Elsewise, we've still very weak excuses as to why specialization occurs.
-Qes

Elsewise, we've still very weak excuses as to why specialization occurs.
Specialization occured. Then an ice age came and went. The civs either returned to what they knew, or not, however your game progresses. They can either use the bonus they have, or adapt to better terrain like everyone else. I'd rather have options than strict adherance to setting. (and I love the setting, obviously.)

Specialization occured. Then an ice age came and went. The civs either returned to what they knew, or not, however your game progresses. They can either use the bonus they have, or adapt to better terrain like everyone else. I'd rather have options than strict adherance to setting. (and I love the setting, obviously.)

Hm, Interesting excuse, and very valid.
Doesnt meant it couldnt be better, and more tasty, but at least I feel satiated as to reasoning.
-Qes

I once planned to have a whole line of defences. I imagined countries would be able to build walls around their empires complete with guard towers and gates. But the problem with it is that the AI doesnt understand appropriate use of them. So I couldnt make the improvements that strategic (hence the random sentry towers instead of the ability to build them).

I like sentry towers, and I would like it if they could be built...so I was pondering this problem. I had a couple of Ideas that I felt just might allow the AI to build sentry towers and forts in a sensible manner.

Start with NON-graphical fort and sentry tower bonuses in the map script.
Place them on hills and other flavorful choke points as the map script allows.

Next, lie to the AI by giving these bonuses yields that would be available with the appropriate improvement.

Thus, the AI would be inclined to build forts or towers on appropriate sqaures...

In a script, on some event such as "complete improvement" trigger a terraforming event that changes the tile from the NON-graphical sentry tower bonus, to the graphical versions of the same bonus.
In the case of a plain fort, simply remove the underlying blank fort bonus bonus once the fort is built.


I might suggest further that the sentry tower bonus again lie to the AI and tell it that it will be improved with a fort, and again, via a script, the sentry tower bonus would be removed upon completion of a fort and replaced with the sentry tower/fort improvement...and I would suggest that this improvement actulally give a production yield like a mine or windmill might so that the AI won't be inclined to replace the improvement it just finnished making.

For plain old forts (that didn't start on a sentry tower bonus), with no sentry towers, again, once the AI has been tricked into building a fort there, have the plain old fort give a yield like a mine or workshop would.

Players would be able to build sentry towers where-ever they liked as they wouldn't even see the blank sentry tower and fort bonuses, but upon building a sentry tower improvement, it would become, via a script a graphical sentry tower bomus, allowing one (AI's too) to then build a fort around it.

I obviously haven't looked at the AI very much, but since there is already terraforming code in the mod, and there are lot's of events in the python it seemed like this thing wouldn't be that difficult.

I have some ability to program, and I'd be happy to try to program it and test it myself if I thought my code might have some chance of being integrated back into the mod.

Of course, if the design team has explored such a path already they can also save me from wasting time on this by letting me know it won't work right.

as a quick add on...

if forts were going to yield anything for the sake of tricking the AI, I think commerce might make the most sense. A flat +2 or +3 would seem reasonable.
So a fort on a hill would yield a couple of commerce and some hammers.

I haven't done the math so I don't know if that would be enough to stop the AI from wanting to replace such an improvement with a mine.

In fact...How often will the AI ever replace an imrovement?

Would it even be necissary to continue to trick the AI after it had already been fooled into building the fort?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=181357&page=4

post 129 by me in the Fortresses thread, has the changes you describe as an attachment, that was for 0.15 but i might do it again when i upload my svartalfar changes. the fortresses as sentry tower improvements works exceptionally well, especially with dreiche2s flavour scripts, which, you guessed it, placces sentry towers at good choke points ;)

Sureshot:

I had already seen the change you made, and I like it, but it still feels a little weird to me to have random sentry towers dotted on the map and I'd love to have the ability to build my own.

So, I'll almost certainly be using changes like you made in the short term, but in the long term I'd love to see sentry towers as buildable rather than random.

In additon, I'd like to see forts without sentry towers from time to time and the silly AI doesn't build them. Plus that +25% defense is almost pointless. They need to at least be worth more than a forrest, otherwise I'll just cast bloom everywhere except dessert.

It'd be nice to see jFort or something like it integrated into the mod once the AI can learn to use forts better.

ya, theres mods out there that help make forts worthwhile, but ive yet to see any that the AI uses well.. thats why i favour the sentry tower fort idea, the ai uses it perfectly (and dreiches mapscripts place towers in great chokepoints :)).. in my changes i always give forts +100% def and bonus yields on towers ;)

I've been playing around with Forts some in an effort to get the AI to build them and use them more.

It's easy enough to get the AI to build them more. A simple yeild will do that. The wrong yeilds can lead to Fort spam on desserts and Tundra and even ice though.
A "fix" for that is to only normally allow the forts on hills.

As for what bonuses and when: Food is the biggest AI incentive, so I've been working a lot with that. One only needs to offer up a little food from a hill plot to make the AI interested in building a fort there.

What I've come up with that seems to work thus far, in terms of building, is this:
Fort --
+50% defense
Buildable on hills
Buildable in forrest and does not remove forest
-4 Commerce Yield
1/1 chance of discovering a Sentry tower randomly

Then....I add tweak the fort yeilds with civics and such:
On road +1 C
On river +1 C
Feudalism +1 C
Trade +1 C
(at this point the fort maintanance is a wash...its back to a null improvement)
Military State +1C
Aristocracy +1F
Conquest +1F/+1C

So, on a grassland hill with forrest and the right civics and techs on a road and river, the tile yields +3F/+1P/+2C...which seems to be enough incentive for the AI to build the fort on marginal tiles, but not enough to spam the fort.

Some issues I've had:
although even with the value of 1 in the XML, it shows up as a 1 in 1% chance and while sentry towers are freqently popping up, they don't show up automatically. Once there is a resource on the plot, the AI will even rebuild raised forts there.

I can't force AI's other than my own to have all 3 civics I like, but even with 1 or 2 of the appropriate civics the AI builds forts.
My automated workers love forts when I have all 3 appropriate civics. Windmills must be worth less than forts or the AI likes them better...


And worst of all... I can't get the AI to guard all the forts it builds. How can I encourage this behavior?

Even forts with a Tower Resource it doesn't seem to guard the forts (though, admitadly, thusfar the tower resource is essentially a non-yield resource)

If I give a yield or a happy to the tower will that cause it to guard them, or is it a different flag in the XML? I've tried the AITrade wieght flags and the iUnique flags, but that doesn't seem to help.

I was planning on trying the following:
+1 Happy from sentry tower with Castle

Thus, like in a feudal levy system, the outer forts would send stuff to the main lords. Will that be enough to get the AI to guard the plot?

I'll be testing it later to see.

If I can get the ai to guard forts well, then I'll try to add in ZOC, as I think that would be a great addition...but until those forts are guarded it just isn't fair.

any feedback or advise on the matter would be appriciated.

the problem with giving forts yields is that they will spam them when they do offer yields, and they won't build them outside of city radius, which is usually the best place for them (though i really like the idea of forts "discovering" sentry towers).

giving them a happiness boost on sentry towers really does the trick nicely, since the AI guards them and builds them outside of city radius.

some ideas ive had some success with have been giving forts "spreads irrigation" with a really weak yield like 1 commerce, since then the AI will favour every other improvement over them, but will build them outside city radius to help spread irrigation (would also add a nice mechanic for spreading irrigation over hills, though not sure how much sense it makes). would be nice if those had a chance to find sentry towers, but that "discover" mechanic only works when you are working the tile, which wont happen with improvements outside of a cities radius.

added:
one thing to remember, forts are bad if you dont garrison them, since they offer enemies places to siege you from, and the AI will only protect resources which offer a bonus they need.

I like the adaptive trait. It would be a lot more useful if there was a mouse-over effect that displayed the bonuses that each trait gives when the opportunity to switch comes up every 100 turns.

Dwarven Mines:

I think that it would be cool if mines would improve over time (like cottages) for dwarven civs. In addition to producing additional production and/or commerce as the mine goes deeper, there should also be a chance to discover a mineral resource each time the mine upgrades. The chance should be progressively better with each growth of the mine.

I also like the idea that was posted earlier to make an underground tunnel that acts like a road for dwarven civs. The tunnel improvement could increase the commerce of mountain/hill tiles by +1.

(though i really like the idea of forts "discovering" sentry towers).

I'm somewhat partial to that over having sentry towers randomly on the map...but that's me.


giving them a happiness boost on sentry towers really does the trick nicely, since the AI guards them and builds them outside of city radius.

I'll be experimenting with that more later. Perhaps it's the only way without the SDK...

but that "discover" mechanic only works when you are working the tile, which wont happen with improvements outside of a cities radius.

Ah ha. That's probably why sentry towers haven't popped up all the time. Excellent to know.


added:
one thing to remember, forts are bad if you dont garrison them, since they offer enemies places to siege you from, and the AI will only protect resources which offer a bonus they need.

So, happy resources are always protected? Or would the AI only protect 1 of any such resource?

I'll be testing later either way. But if you know...spread the word.

not sure, i just notice that the AI's always put a unit on their copper and other resources on hills usually

Plodding on with my research into Forts I've learned how it is the AI determines what resources to guard.

First, you need a unit to have the UNITAI_RESERVE...and then there is a chance
it will be given the mission GUARD_RESOURCE.

I'm working on how to determine when units will be "RESERVE"

But assuming you have some reserves...AND the AI doesn't think it needs more units to either: Guard a city or guard an airlift, then the units will go and stand on a resource.

What resource the choose to stand on is determined via a function in the SDK...I don't know yet if python modifies this value.

The formula is roughly something like this:

((100*Happy +100*Health)
+(40 per unit "AND" prereq + 30 per unit "OR" prereq + unit production modifier /10) * 1.5 for units it can build or divided by the difference in tech eras from where it is now
+(30 per unit "AND" prereq + 20 per unit "OR" prereq + building production modifier /10) * 1.5 for buildings it can build or divided by the difference in tech eras from where it is now.
+ 2 * project building modifier /10 * 1.5 for projects it can build or divided by the difference in tech eras from where it is now. )
/ 10
= PlotValue

If the value of ANY plot is greater than 10 and is greater than all other plots
AND
the function isVisibleEnemyUnit returns true for that plot
THEN
the RESERVE unit running the AI mission function will be assigned to guard the plot

MY CONCLUSIONS ARE...

The best way to get the AI to guard a plot is to pile on the health and happy bonuses. Absurdly high numbers for these values should result in high numbers of guards.

However, if the civ can also build non-obsolete units and buildings that require a resource, then it only takes a few of these to catch up to a single health or happiness bonus.

So, if for instance mages, archmages, and liches all required a tower resource, and the AI could build them all, then a tower resource would get 40*3*1.5/10 = 18 for a plot value, which is better than a single happiness, so the AI would be more inclined to guard that resource, and any fort that happened to be on it.

at least I think thats about how it works...
now on to find out how to encourage more "RESERVE" units from the AI...

The UnitAIWieghtModifier can be set in the LeaderHead XML file.

By setting this value higher, an AI will prefer these units more and will allow itself to build more units with this AI than previously.

With more of these units, and secure cities, the AI will happily put at least 1 unit into a fort that has a "bonus" yeild such as a tower, provided that bonus is "better" as far as it's math goes.

I'll be testing later.

I think that setting the AI weight up a bit for Reserves will really help the AI to use forts better.

I wonder if it will even try to re-capture forts....hhhmmmm...

The more I think of forts as improvemetns in Civ, the more it strikes me as a square peg in a round hole. I'm not one of you Civ modders, but I gather there is always some programming shortcoming to the improvement.

[Edit: Moved to the New Units thread.

M@ni@c: That durn AI ... figures.)

The AI probably wouldn't be able to use this.

use what? everything ive heard has sounded perfectly useable by the AI (and has been shown to in tests)

edit: maybe unsers moved stuff? ya im not sure that would be easy for the AI.. ive pretty much abandonned tryin anything that the AI doesnt easily handle

Anyone ever think of doing canals? It would boost trade and connect cities and, if you can find out how to do it, allow ships to "move" across land. I can imagine a canal across a strait like that of the panama canal or one connecting 2 cities like the Grand Canal in from Sui dynasty China. If not an improvement then it would make a good wonder. If you build it then a popup will come up asking you which cities you what to connect. Once you pick them the canal graphic stretches from the first city to the second. This would probably require a river in between the 2 cities and im not sure how that would play out with the programming. I also dont know how you would get the ships to move up and down them, but it would be pretty cool/useful if you found out how to implement this.

The Lanun can partly achieve this by building a Pirate Cove on an isthmus, though it then prevents land units from moving across without a boat plugging the gap.

well the way i see it it wouldn't really affect the ships but rather it would affect trade and communication within the civilization. For the graphics i was thinking something with the an affect that is similar to that of the great wall in warlords. When its built there would be a graphics covering the river tiles between two cities.

I really enjoy this mod pack/expansion.

A few things I have noticed:
Yvain appears to be a hero druid type unit, but isn't able to terraform like the other druids (he is missing the sorcery promotion). I am not sure if that is intentional or not.

The "Scorch" spell seems like it should be able to damage grasslands also. I was experimenting with a HN sorceror and damaging other civ's production.

Similarly HN units can't destroy improvements. Which is interesting as barbarians do it often.

Has any thought been given to making Mana nodes buildable? I was thinking it might be interesting if a Mage or Archmage was able to sacrifice itself to build a node. Or possibly a combination Mage & Priest or Archmage & High Priest. Other considerations might be minimum distance between Nodes.