City Graphics

+%Ancient Era
+%Classical Era
+%Medieval Era
+%Renissauce Era
+%Ashen Veil Era (skins by Chalid)
+%The Order Era (skins by Chalid)
+%Fellowship of Leaves Era (skins by Chalid)
+%Runes of Kilmorph Era (skins by Chalid)
+%Octopus Overlords Era (skins by Chalid)


Era 1

+%Elder Council (skin and model by Chalid)
+%Granary
+%Harbor
+%Herbalist (skin and model by Chalid)
+%Market (skin and model by Chalid)
+%Obelisk

Palaces:
[tab] +Bannor Palace- Provides Law mana
[tab] +Malakim Palace- Provides Fire mana (will be converted to Sun when the Sun sphere is introduced)
[tab] +Elohim Palace- Provides Spirit mana
[tab] +Mercurian Palace- Provides Life mana
[tab] +Luchuirp Palace- Provides Enchantment mana
[tab] +Kuriotate Palace- Provides Creation mana
[tab] +Ljosalfar Palace- Provides Nature mana
[tab] +Khazad Palace- Provides Earth mana
[tab] +Sidar Palace- +2 Great Sage points
[tab] +Lanun Palace- Provides Water mana and +1 Food per sea tile globally.
[tab] +Grigori Palace- +2 Adventurer points
[tab] +Hippus Palace- Provides Horses
[tab] +Amurite Palace- Provides Metamagic mana
[tab] +Doviello Palace- Provides Chaos mana
[tab] +%Balseraph Palace (skin and model by Chalid)- Provides Mind mana
[tab] +Clan of Embers Palace- Provides Fire mana
[tab] +Svartalfar Palace- +4 XP for Recon units (will provide Provides Shadow mana when thats introduced)
[tab] +Calabim Palace- Provides Body mana
[tab] +Sheaim Palace- Provides Dimensional mana
[tab] +Infernal Palace- Provides Entropy mana
[tab] +Illian Palace- +4 XP for Melee units

+%Palisade (skin and model by Chalid)- +25% city defence, becomes obsolete with Construction, no tech requirement (Loki)
+%Smokehouse (skin and model by chalid)
+%Training Yard (skin and model by Chalid)

Era 1.5

+%Archery Range (skin and model by Chalid)
+%Barracks
+%Brewery (skin and model by C.Roland)
+%Carnival (skin and model by C.Roland)
+%Command Post (skin and model by Chalid)
+%Hunting Lodge (skin and model by Chalid)
+%Library- Needs renamed
+Pagan Temple
+%Stable (skin and model by Chalid)
+%Temple of Kilmorph (skin by Chalid)
+%Temple of Leaves (skin by Chalid)
+%Temple of the Order (skin by Chalid)
+%Temple of the Overlords (skin by Chalid)
+%Temple of the Veil (skin by Chalid)
+%Walls

Era 2

+%Aqueduct
+%Asylum (skin by C.Roland)
+Dungeon
+%Forge- -1 health, +25% hammers, allows 1 engineer, +1 happy with gold and gems, golems built in the city gain the Combat I promotion
+Gambling House
+%Inn (skin and model by C.Roland)
+%Lighthouse
+Moneychanger
+Public Baths
+%Siege Workshop (skin and model by Duke van Frost)
+%Theatre

Temple Upgrades-

[tab] 1. When the first one is built they block access to other temple upgrades for that religion.
[tab] 2. Initially they will be buildable, ideally these should be created by great prophets (if we can get the AI to do it correctly).

The Order:

[tab]+Inquisitional Hall (concept: strict)
[tab][tab]Removes all religions but the Order from the city
[tab][tab]Keeps religions from spreading to the city (not in yet)
[tab][tab]Inquisitioners given +4 xp
[tab][tab]Paladins created in this city gain the Command promotion
[tab][tab]+10% Maintenance

[tab]+Enforcement Office (concept: managed)
[tab][tab]-50% war weariness
[tab][tab]-50% maintenance
[tab][tab]-1 maintenance per happy (not in yet)
[tab][tab]-1 maintenance per military unti in city (not in yet)
[tab][tab]Doubled effect of great commanders recruit ability

The Ashen Veil:

[tab]+Demon's altar (concept: demon worship, dark magic)
[tab][tab]All units can be sacrificed for research, the higher the level of the unit, the more research is given
[tab][tab]Units created here start with a +40% vs disciples promotion
[tab][tab]-2 Happy

[tab]Forbidden Library (concept: intellegent)
[tab][tab]-20% culture, +10% science
[tab][tab]Trade routes yeild science instead of gold.
[tab][tab]10% chance of providing a Mind mana resource

The Fellowship of Leaves:

[tab]+The Golden Wood (concept: open, elegant)
[tab][tab]+25% culture
[tab][tab]+1 trade routes
[tab][tab]+1 great artist
[tab][tab]-25% city defense

[tab]+The Shadowed Vale (concept: closed, mystical)
[tab][tab]Triple the chance of generating Treants
[tab][tab]+1 great sage
[tab][tab]-1 trade routes
[tab][tab]-25% culture

Runes of Kilmorph:

[tab]+Hall of Granite (concept: insular, defensive)
[tab][tab]+50% defense
[tab][tab]-20% Culture
[tab][tab]+10% Production
[tab][tab]Non Kilmorph religions give -1 happiness each (not in yet)
[tab][tab]-1 Trade route
[tab][tab]City is more likely to culture flip away from non-Runes civs (not in yet)
[tab][tab]Stone gives +3 hammers

[tab]+RuneVault (concept: wise, traditional)
[tab][tab]Gems give +1 Happy
[tab][tab]-10% production
[tab][tab]+2 Prophet GP points
[tab][tab]+4 Research per Gems
[tab][tab]Allows the Rune Guard unit (rooted, 1 per city, defensive)

Octopus Overlords:

[tab]+Overseer's Residence (concept: punishing, controlling)
[tab][tab]Doubles effects of slaves sacrificed for production (not in)
[tab][tab]+1 Research per Orc, Elf, Human or Dwarf pen.
[tab][tab]Population sacrificed for production gives double effects (not in)
[tab][tab]-10% gold, culture
[tab][tab]-1 Happy

[tab]+Theater of Dreams (concept: insane)
[tab][tab]25% of the units produced in this city are Crazed
[tab][tab]Combat 1 promotion for Lunatics
[tab][tab]+1 Culture per animal pen
[tab][tab]City is more likely to culture flip away from non-OO civs (not in)

Era 3

+Alchemy Lab
+Armorer
+Basilica
+%Bear Totem (skin and model by Chalid)
+Bowyer
+%Castle
+%Colosseum
+%Courthouse
+%Drydock
+Golem Workshop
+Grove
+Hidden Court
+Hippodrome
+%Infirmary (skin by ?)
+Large Animal Stables
+Machinists Shop
+%Monastery
+%Tavern (skin and model by Duke van Frost)
+Tax Office
+Thieves Guild
+Weaponsmith

Era 4

+%Obsidian Gate (skin by C.Roland)


Civ specific buildings

Bannor:

Malakim:

[tab]+Citadel of Light- Summons a fireball if there is an enemy unit within 2 tiles, requires fire mana.
[tab]+Altar of Delos- Expands visibility range of units in the city by 2. (Loki)
[tab]Desert Shrine- +1 food, +2 great person points from deserts.

Elohim:

[tab]+Chancel of Guardians- +25% defense, 20% of units built in city start with defensive. (Loki)
[tab]+Reliquary- Units start with the Spirit Guide promotion.

Luchirp:

[tab]Assembly Halls- Buildling that boosts golem production
[tab]+Blasting Workshop- Gives golems the fireball ability, requires fire mana and a Golem Workshop
[tab]+Armament Molds (replaces armorer)- Increases golems strength, requires a Golem Workshop
[tab]+Velox Workshop (replaces weaponsmith)- decreases golems strength slightly, increases their movement, requires a Golem Workshop
[tab]+Gridlines- Building that gives City Defense to golems
[tab]?- Building that gives the Guardman promotion to golems
[tab]+Sculptors Studio (replaces barracks)


Kuriotates:

Ljosalfar:

Khazad:

[tab]+Dwarven Smithy (replaces forge)- Acts as a normal firge but it gives bonus production if Copper, Iron or Mithril is availabel to the city. (Loki)

Lanun:

Grigori:

[tab]+Adventurers Guild- +2 Adventurer points
[tab]+Grigori Tavern (replaces tavern)- Acts as a normal tavern but grants Adventurer points instead of Great Artist points.

Hippus:

Amurites:

[tab]+Cave of Ancestors- Grants +1 xp for each different mana resource the city has access to.

Doviello: (The Doviello won't have any unique buildings)

Balseraphs:

[tab]+Freak Show. +2 great artist points. Allows Human cages, Dwarf cages, Elf cages and Orc cages. (Loki)

Clan of Embers:

Calabim:

[tab]+Breeding Pit- Increases the growth rate of the city and gives -1 Health.
[tab]+Governors Manor- +2 hammers from engineers, +2 trade from merchants, +1 hammer and +1 trade from priests, -25% war weariness

Sheaim:

Buildings that provide you a benefit for building them in rivals cities:

1. A Mission House that provides additional gold to the owner of the holy city for the matching religion.

2. Market buildings? Make the weaponsmith buildable in rival cities, they get the quality weapons promotions, you get gold every turn?

3. Propaganda buildings that raise the cities chance of flipping to you.

4. An embassy that raises your relationship with that civ.

Upgradable buildings?

1. Multiple forms of the palace that provide different bonus's?

2. Upgradable flavors of the temples?

1. Very nice. Maybe choices influenced by your gov civic?

2. I love this. Would you like more than 2 choices?
I'll use temple of the order to make the point:
-Fortress of the Righteous
-Cathedral of the Good
-Altar of the Light

Buildings that provide you a benefit for building them in rivals cities:

1. A Mission House that provides additional gold to the owner of the holy city for the matching religion.

2. Market buildings? Make the weaponsmith buildable in rival cities, they get the quality weapons promotions, you get gold every turn?

3. Propaganda buildings that raise the cities chance of flipping to you.

4. An embassy that raises your relationship with that civ.


Finished good buildings?

Def: Building that require and produce resources?

5. Tailor- turns cotton and dyes into clothes?


1. That works. Maybe increases religion spread as well.
Possibly the amount of gold given could be reduced if there were many religions in the city.

2. That would work nicely if you based it on resources.
ie: you have mithril, and your ally doesn't. You build a special market in the city. Now the units built in that city start with the basic mithril equipment, and each time one is built you get something like 10% of its cost in gold.

3. Okay. I say you should add more effects, like increased unhappiness or rioting. This building should be removeable by an inquisition.

4. Great idea. Should alo increase chances of a spy mission suceeding, with its diplomacy effects doubled in a center of government.
Also, maybe it removes fog of war from the city and its radius.

5. I think that would be too complex for many users. It might work better if you used the equipment system so that if you had access to both dye and cotton, your units would start out with leather armor, and be stronger. maybe there should be a "quatermaster's office" which you can build infinite times, and it allows this kind of resource to equipment conversions.

Also, I think that there should be a T1 palisade that gives +25% defense.

The propaganda building should give a negative reputation hit of -1 per occurance in their lands. "you're spreading lies and propaganda against me! -1"

2. Upgradable flavors of the temples?

This is a great idea, and would really work in favour of city specialization. I think 3 different kinds are adequate, but they should be different ones for each of the religions(so not everyone should merely have, say, a military, a science and a culture kind of upgrade.) However, I think it might make sense to have one of the upgrades be military, in the sense that it would allow you to build a unique unit type tied to the religion. Some suggestions for upgrades and possible effects:

Leaves:
1. Garden of the Ancients - Increase forest spread rate within the city borders. +20% culture, allows 1 Priest and 1 Bard specialist.
2. Enchanted Spring - Allows unicorns, which means that all mounted units trained here gets the "unicorn" promotion(+20% strength, but loses withdraw ability), +2 xp for all mounted units trained here. Double production speed with gems. (If you want to point out that this building is shamelessly stolen from Heroes of Might and Magic III, you are correct).
3. Hidden Sanctuary - Allows training of woodland striders, which are a more potent kind of rangers who can learn basic shadow and nature spells. +10% military unit production.

Veil:

1. Forbidden Library - +25% science, -20% culture. 2 unhappy faces. Allows 1 scientist and 1 priest.
2. Crematorium - Allows training of Burnt Corpses, which are zombies with high fire resistance(ideal for hell exploration). +10% military unit production.
3. Don't know. Perhaps it could be one of few +health buildings the veil would get. Perhaps a hospital employing nasty experiments on people, increasing health, but causing unhappyness.

Overlords:

1. Spire of Thought - +20% science, -20% military production. Allow 1 priest and 1 scientist.
2. Pillar of Discipline - All units stationed in the city gets a tower of iron will promotion for as long as they stay garrisoned. Allows training of psions, who automatically grants tower of iron will to units in the same square.
3. Voices of the Insane - +50% military unit production, all units starts with the crazed promotion.

Kilmorph:

1. Divine Workshops - +25% hammers, -20% science. Allows 1 priest and one engineer.
2. Cloister of the Earth - Chance of discovering resources in mines worked by this city doubled. Allows training of Tunnelers, who can traverse peaks and gets a large defense bonus in hills, mountains and peaks. They can also bypass city walls to some extent.
3. Smith of the Mother - -50% military production, but all units gain a "blessed weapons" promotion, which gives +30% strength.

Order:

Fortress of Light - +25% city defense. +4 xp to new order units.
Inquisitorical Halls - +2 unhappy faces, allows training of high inquisitor, a more powerful inquisitor unit. +10% military unit production.
Hospital of Junil - +3 health, +1 happy, -30% military production.

Leaves:
1. Garden of the Ancients - Increase forest spread rate within the city borders. +20% culture, allows 1 Priest and 1 Bard specialist.
2. Enchanted Spring - Allows unicorns, which means that all mounted units trained here gets the "unicorn" promotion(+20% strength, but loses withdraw ability), +2 xp for all mounted units trained here. Double production speed with gems. (If you want to point out that this building is shamelessly stolen from Heroes of Might and Magic III, you are correct).
3. Hidden Sanctuary - Allows training of woodland striders, which are a more potent kind of rangers who can learn basic shadow and nature spells. +10% military unit production.

1. Good idea
2. I think that unicorns will work instead as unit would find wandering in the wilderness, and have to capture. The name is so good though... What if it instead:
+2 health, +33% of health kept after growth, +1 happy from inscence
3. Change the +10% military production to +25% defense and you have a deal

Veil:

1. Forbidden Library - +25% science, -20% culture. 2 unhappy faces. Allows 1 scientist and 1 priest.
2. Crematorium - Allows training of Burnt Corpses, which are zombies with high fire resistance(ideal for hell exploration). +10% military unit production.
3. Don't know. Perhaps it could be one of few +health buildings the veil would get. Perhaps a hospital employing nasty experiments on people, increasing health, but causing unhappyness.

1. I don't like the -20% culture really. How about gives +1 unhealthiness? Instead of unhappy faces have it give -20% spellcaster build time
2. Take away the +10% military production, and give it +1 health
3. Demon Lair (what happens to a veil temple when a demon moves in)
+2 demon (GP) points per each population point
New demons start with +3 XP points
-10% culture

Overlords:

1. Spire of Thought - +20% science, -20% military production. Allow 1 priest and 1 scientist.
2. Pillar of Discipline - All units stationed in the city gets a tower of iron will promotion for as long as they stay garrisoned. Allows training of psions, who automatically grants tower of iron will to units in the same square.
3. Voices of the Insane - +50% military unit production, all units starts with the crazed promotion.

1. I sense a pattern here. The name is great though, how about
+20% science, +10% culture, -2 XP points for new units. Allows scientist and artist
2. Doesn't seem OO enough. How about:
Laboratory
+1 science for every caged animal
+1 culture for every population point
-2 happiness
3. Great name, but the military production bonus seems boring. Instead:
-All non demon, non golem, non mage, non siege units start with the crazed promotion
-Science instead of culture goes towards city defense

Kilmorph:

1. Divine Workshops - +25% hammers, -20% science. Allows 1 priest and one engineer.
2. Cloister of the Earth - Chance of discovering resources in mines worked by this city doubled. Allows training of Tunnelers, who can traverse peaks and gets a large defense bonus in hills, mountains and peaks. They can also bypass city walls to some extent.
3. Smith of the Mother - -50% military production, but all units gain a "blessed weapons" promotion, which gives +30% strength.

1. Kinda cheasy pattern i'm seeing. Nice name though. How about:
+2 gold, +1 food, +1 hammer from each workshop in city radius
Allows two engineers
2. Great name. I'd rather have something like this:
All units built in city get guerilla I-II
Mines give +2 food, +1 gold in city radius
-10% military production
3. IDK. I'd rather have it do this:
Dwarf units produced +20%
Dwarf units gain +3 XP

Order:

1. Fortress of Light - +25% city defense. +4 xp to new order units.
2. Inquisitorical Halls - +2 unhappy faces, allows training of high inquisitor, a more powerful inquisitor unit. +10% military unit production.
3. Hospital of Junil - +3 health, +1 happy, -30% military production.

1. Good name, but I'd change the effect to be: +25% city defense, -50% maintenance, +1 happiness, -1 happiness from each 10% of budget allocated to culture, +2 great commander points
2. Good name. Like always, I want a different effect:
City can't trade with cities with any different religions in them
-3 happiness for each non-state in city
Double production speed of idisciples
+3 XP for new disciple units
3. No way! Junil is not a healing god. This is where we use that OO one from earlier.
Tower of Obediance
Units built in city are disciplined
+25% military production
Units built in city have formation I

Now that I'm thinking about it, the OO temple upgrade laboratory should also give +10 science each time a slave is sacrificed. Or soemthing like that.

I know that someone suggested this a long time ago in the thread, but I think it would be a nice function if you had the ability to build a bunch of guilds in your city.
Theives, Artists, Builders, Merchants, Mercanaries.

The idea of having five guilds is that you would only be able to build 3 in each city.
theives already has an effect.
Mercenaries allows the city to hire mercenaries (that other dudes mod) as well as reducing the hurry cost on mercenaries and privateers. Also mercs built with 2 XP, and -10% culture
Artists give +20% culture, +1 happiness per 10% culture. Allows 3 artists, artists in city give +1 gold, +1 great artist points. +10% war weariness
Builders gives +25% building production, +1 happiness from engineers
Merchants- -1 trade route, +2XP for naval units, +25% trade route yeild per resource inside city radius.

EDIT: More Guild ideas.
Tinkerers-Great people sacrificed in the city for technologies give double science points. -10% science
Wizards-Spellcasters produced with +2XP points, increased maintenance, +10% science
Pamphlet printers-+10% great person rate, +15% war weariness, -25% maintenance

Would it require the Guilds civic?

I like how it has the potential to further specialize a city.

I think that mercenaries should be hirable anywhere, as they are now, though. Reducing the hurry cost, the xp gain, and the culture loss are all good though.

Pamphlet printers-writing has been replaced in phase two, but it can still work.-Town Criers might work better as a name.

Would it require the Guilds civic?

I like how it has the potential to further specialize a city.

I think that mercenaries should be hirable anywhere, as they are now, though. Reducing the hurry cost, the xp gain, and the culture loss are all good though.

Pamphlet printers-writing has been replaced in phase two, but it can still work.-Town Criers might work better as a name.

No, but the guilds civic would allow you to build an extra one.

Merc- Yeah, reducing the hurry cost is what we need. Maybe reducing the sheild cost as well.

Town criers is a better name, but the mechanic is the same.

Finished good buildings?

Def: Building that require and produce resources?

1. Tailor- turns cotton and dyes into clothes?

2. Eternal Flame- that requires red mana and produces red mana even if the origional mana source is lost.

The more i think about those the more i like them. Its like no we dont sell you that Iron, but we can sell you some Swords to build your low Quality Swordsmen. Are You interested?

For example you need the Armorer to build Phalanxes. But at the same moment you get a Ressource Mithril Shields that allows you to Build a weaker Version of the Phalanx and you can sell those Shields to your Neighbors.
So i think every Ressource-generating Building should enable a more powerfull unit in the cities it is build but also allow other cities to build similar units as well.

This is a great idea, and would really work in favour of city specialization. I think 3 different kinds are adequate, but they should be different ones for each of the religions(so not everyone should merely have, say, a military, a science and a culture kind of upgrade.) However, I think it might make sense to have one of the upgrades be military, in the sense that it would allow you to build a unique unit type tied to the religion. Some suggestions for upgrades and possible effects:

Leaves:
1. Garden of the Ancients - Increase forest spread rate within the city borders. +20% culture, allows 1 Priest and 1 Bard specialist.
2. Enchanted Spring - Allows unicorns, which means that all mounted units trained here gets the "unicorn" promotion(+20% strength, but loses withdraw ability), +2 xp for all mounted units trained here. Double production speed with gems. (If you want to point out that this building is shamelessly stolen from Heroes of Might and Magic III, you are correct).
3. Hidden Sanctuary - Allows training of woodland striders, which are a more potent kind of rangers who can learn basic shadow and nature spells. +10% military unit production.

Veil:

1. Forbidden Library - +25% science, -20% culture. 2 unhappy faces. Allows 1 scientist and 1 priest.
2. Crematorium - Allows training of Burnt Corpses, which are zombies with high fire resistance(ideal for hell exploration). +10% military unit production.
3. Don't know. Perhaps it could be one of few +health buildings the veil would get. Perhaps a hospital employing nasty experiments on people, increasing health, but causing unhappyness.

Overlords:

1. Spire of Thought - +20% science, -20% military production. Allow 1 priest and 1 scientist.
2. Pillar of Discipline - All units stationed in the city gets a tower of iron will promotion for as long as they stay garrisoned. Allows training of psions, who automatically grants tower of iron will to units in the same square.
3. Voices of the Insane - +50% military unit production, all units starts with the crazed promotion.

Kilmorph:

1. Divine Workshops - +25% hammers, -20% science. Allows 1 priest and one engineer.
2. Cloister of the Earth - Chance of discovering resources in mines worked by this city doubled. Allows training of Tunnelers, who can traverse peaks and gets a large defense bonus in hills, mountains and peaks. They can also bypass city walls to some extent.
3. Smith of the Mother - -50% military production, but all units gain a "blessed weapons" promotion, which gives +30% strength.

Order:

Fortress of Light - +25% city defense. +4 xp to new order units.
Inquisitorical Halls - +2 unhappy faces, allows training of high inquisitor, a more powerful inquisitor unit. +10% military unit production.
Hospital of Junil - +3 health, +1 happy, -30% military production.

Can you cut these to 2 for each religion and tie each to an either/or decision so the player only has access to one or the other. Some examples could be:

1. One buildable if the player is ranked number 1.
2. Only buildable if the player has a certain civic.
3. Only buildable if the player has the religions holy city.
4. Only buildable if the civ is at war.
5. etc etc

Can you cut these to 2 for each religion and tie each to an either/or decision so the player only has access to one or the other.

I could do that, but wasn't the point of several upgrade paths for temples to allow for versatility and city specialization? If you restricted them so only one was available to you, building that particular one in all cities would be kind of a no-brainer. Wouldn't the restrictions be better for, say, some kind of national/great wonders?

I could do that, but wasn't the point of several upgrade paths for temples to allow for versatility and city specialization? If you restricted them so only one was available to you, building that particular one in all cities would be kind of a no-brainer. Wouldn't the restrictions be better for, say, some kind of national/great wonders?

You're right, I just didn't want them to build half of one and half of another. I wanted to force them to pick between the buildings so they would get either the research boost or access to a new unit. It just doesn't seem like much of a choice if they can have both.

I see your point. I think I'll try to tie them to civics then, since that will leave the player with the option, but still force him to use the setup across the board.

EDIT: Hmm, but a player could still run both civics, unless they're the same category. Perhaps they'll have to be.

You're right, I just didn't want them to build half of one and half of another. I wanted to force them to pick between the buildings so they would get either the research boost or access to a new unit. It just doesn't seem like much of a choice if they can have both.

What if you did something like Sevo's Faces of God mod for this? Then you can have many possibilities for each religion, but one one is useable at a time.

Two quick things:
a) library could be Scrolls or Runes of Witch's Cave
b) did you miss my t1 palisade idea? first possible defensive bonus.

Two quick things:
a) library could be Scrolls or Runes of Witch's Cave
b) did you miss my t1 palisade idea? first possible defensive bonus.

Walls comes pretty early, at masonry, which only takes Militia. So I don't know if we can have a building that is much earlier. You thinking about it as a building without a tech requirement?

Okay, here's the FoG way of doing the temple upgrades:
Each nation may onyl have one of these wonders at once, and if they switch relgion the wonders are lost.

Each of the wonders allows one of these many temple upgrades in each city. Each upgrade has a different flavor and purpose.

Demon's altar: Any level 5 or higher unit can be upgraded to Demon. Loses all promotions and levels. 20% chance demon created will be a barb. Each time a unit is "upgraded" like this you get 50% of its sheilds in science and -1 happiness for 6 turns (number based on game length, same as sacrificing for production). Demons built in city (or upgraded) gain +2 XP. -1 health, -2 happiness. Gives +3 demon GP points.

Otherworldly Scrolls: +5 science. Demons built in city give +25 science. -25% demon build time. -10% gold. Can build a new unit: Exploring Demon. 8 strength, demon type, high movement.

Forbidden Library: -20% culture, +10% science. -2 happiness. Trade routes yeild science instead of gold. +1 trade route, +25% trade route yeild. Can onyl trade with AV cities.

Demon Runes: +100% demon summoner production. Demon summoners built in city get combat I, +2 XP. Each demon summoner built gives -2 happiness for 6 turns. -10% science.

Walls comes pretty early, at masonry, which only takes Militia. So I don't know if we can have a building that is much earlier. You thinking about it as a building without a tech requirement?

Yeah, and maybe go obsolete at construction. An early thing that you build if you need help against barbs.

Yeah, and maybe go obsolete at construction. An early thing that you build if you need help against barbs.

Oh, I like the obsolete idea. I didn't like another building stacking in but you handled it perfectly, I'll add it.

I think a palisade would be more usefull as something that a worker could build. Say you want to defend a resource from early barbarian raids- build a palisade and plop a warrior in it- good for if you don't have any stratagic forested hills.

Okay, here's the FoG way of doing the temple upgrades:
Each nation may onyl have one of these wonders at once, and if they switch relgion the wonders are lost.

Each of the wonders allows one of these many temple upgrades in each city. Each upgrade has a different flavor and purpose.

Demon's altar: Any level 5 or higher unit can be upgraded to Demon. Loses all promotions and levels. 20% chance demon created will be a barb. Each time a unit is "upgraded" like this you get 50% of its sheilds in science and -1 happiness for 6 turns (number based on game length, same as sacrificing for production). Demons built in city (or upgraded) gain +2 XP. -1 health, -2 happiness. Gives +3 demon GP points.

Otherworldly Scrolls: +5 science. Demons built in city give +25 science. -25% demon build time. -10% gold. Can build a new unit: Exploring Demon. 8 strength, demon type, high movement.

Forbidden Library: -20% culture, +10% science. -2 happiness. Trade routes yeild science instead of gold. +1 trade route, +25% trade route yeild. Can onyl trade with AV cities.

Demon Runes: +100% demon summoner production. Demon summoners built in city get combat I, +2 XP. Each demon summoner built gives -2 happiness for 6 turns. -10% science.

The problem with the FoG way is you have to own the holy city to do it. And therefor if you don't own the holy city you dont have access to any of these buildings and it doesnt allow you the opportunity to have 2 ashen veil civs in the game, one of which has gone the research path and hte other which has gone with the bonus unit.

The problem with the FoG way is you have to own the holy city to do it. And therefor if you don't own the holy city you dont have access to any of these buildings and it doesnt allow you the opportunity to have 2 ashen veil civs in the game, one of which has gone the research path and hte other which has gone with the bonus unit.

Fine then, we'll use Sevo's modified mod. What does mod stand for anyways?

It will be like that, except that you dont' need the holy city. just take any great prophet, or the signature GP of the religion (veil = scientist) and build it in any city. The wonder does nothing on its own, but allows the other buildings to be built. The ai would have a simple modification that made it less likely to build a new wonder each time a temple upgrade was built. Or, the original wonder could simply give one of each temple upgrade for free in you cities, so that the ai wouldn't be hurt be this.
Course, this requires the ai knowing to use the GP's this way.

Okay, OO time: (i love the evil religions)

Modified FoG system.

1. Voices of the Insane
-25% food kept after growth
+50% production for special units and buildings
Drowns produced with +3 XP
Reduced population sacrifice cost for drown
-1 happiness

2. Twisted Laboratory
+2 science from each carnival cage
+1 science per population point
-2 happiness
+1 health
Allows 2 scientists

3. Overseer's Residence
Doubles effects of slaves sacrificed for production
Slaves sacrificed give +20 science
Population sacrificed for production gives double effects
Population sacrificed for production gives +20 science per point sacrificed
-10% gold, culture

4. Theater of Dreams
Each demon built gives +50% of their cost as culture
Culture is used instead of defensive bonuses
Water spaces give +3 culture, +1 shield
-1 happiness per 10% budget towards culture
-10% shields

Order:

1. Inquisitorial Halls
Stops spread of non-state religion
-3 happiness per non-state religion
Inquisiors trained +100%, +2XP
+1 happiness

2. Fortress of the Lights
+25% city defense
+25% military production
+2XP
-25% trade route yeild
-1 trade route
+3 great commander points

3. Enforcement Offices
-50% war weariness
-50% maintenance
-1 happiness per 1 maintenance
-1 maintenance per military unti in city

4. Military School
-25% great person birth rate
-20% culture
All specialists give +2 great commander points
Units built in city get +3XP
Doubled effects of great commanders born in city

Runes next i think, but not until tomorrow.

I'll give Leaves a go:

1. Roots of the World Tree.
Casts Entangle on all enemy units within its city's zone of influence.
Forests yeild extra food and production
+10% culture
-25%trade route yeild
-1trade route.
Can only trade with Fellowship cities.

2.The Golden Wood
+25% culture
+1 trade routes
+25% trade route yeild
+1 health per 10 culture rate
+1 great artist
+1 maintenance per unhealthiness point
+25% war weariness

3. The Shadowed Vale
Units created here have a +20% flanking chance, +1 first strike chance.
+25% defense against all units as a terrain modifier. (seige cannot lower like for a hill)
City is hidden terrain.
-2 trade routes.
-25% culture.

4. The Silver Wood
+2 beakers+25% Science
+1 trade route
+2 great sage
Forests give -1 food.
-20% culture

Fine then, we'll use Sevo's modified mod. What does mod stand for anyways?

It will be like that, except that you dont' need the holy city. just take any great prophet, or the signature GP of the religion (veil = scientist) and build it in any city. The wonder does nothing on its own, but allows the other buildings to be built. The ai would have a simple modification that made it less likely to build a new wonder each time a temple upgrade was built. Or, the original wonder could simply give one of each temple upgrade for free in you cities, so that the ai wouldn't be hurt be this.
Course, this requires the ai knowing to use the GP's this way.

I could have the 1st building as a national wonder that is only buildable in the countries capital (requires the palace to build). And have it block the other temple upgrades (of the same religion) when it is built.

The reason its so much easier to force it in the capital only is that I am going to have to check everytime a build list is presented to the player to see if they are allowed to make each temple upgrade. If I force the first building in the capital then they will all have to check the capital, if they first building is allowed in any city I will have to look through all the players cities for one each time.

Could it also be buildable in the cities with the forbidden and/or winter palaces?

Could it also be buildable in the cities with the forbidden and/or winter palaces?

No, then I would need to search all the cities again to see where the forbidden and winter palaces are. The nice thing about the capital is I can call it directly (i dont need to search through all fo the cities looking for the capital).

So the player with the Ashen Veil as their state religion can build one of the ashen veil upgraded temples in his capital. It will destroy his normal ashen veil temple and keep it (and the other ashen veil upgrades) from being able to be built. Once the upgraded temple is built in his capital he will be able to build that upgraded temple (and only that one) in all of his cities.

No, then I would need to search all the cities again to see where the forbidden and winter palaces are. The nice thing about the capital is I can call it directly (i dont need to search through all fo the cities looking for the capital).

So the player with the Ashen Veil as their state religion can build one of the ashen veil upgraded temples in his capital. It will destroy his normal ashen veil temple and keep it (and the other ashen veil upgrades) from being able to be built. Once the upgraded temple is built in his capital he will be able to build that upgraded temple (and only that one) in all of his cities.

Exactly. I personally think that great prophets should be able to help these get built.

Exactly. I personally think that great prophets should be able to help these get built.

That would be cool for a long term goal (when we can get better control on the AI) but for the short term we may just need to make these buildables. But I'll add it to list for a long term goal so we dont forget about it.

I think that you should modify roots of the world tree this way:
-1 trade route per entangled enemy would take too much CPU, so instead it should only be allowed to trade with Fellowship cities.

I have no idea about how much extra CPU time it would use up, but I modified it as you said. I also changed the Shadowed Vale to relfect the fact that this buildng will only be buildable once. I designed them with the idea that we could build different ones in different cities, to further specialize them. I'll change the cast roots part too, once I get another idea, since it's useless in only one city.

Another idea is to make only one of these buildable per civ in the capital, but make it affect ALL of the player's cities. They would have to be tweaked a bit more for balance from what they are now ( smaller multipliers both positive and negative), but it would really differentiate one (for example) leaves civ from another. One that built the Golden Wood would be a shining beacon of culture and health, while one that built the Shadowed Vale would be a mysterious, close knit clan of elves that people in other cultures whisper about in fear.

Another idea is to make only one of these buildable per civ in the capital, but make it affect ALL of the player's cities. They would have to be tweaked a bit more for balance from what they are now ( smaller multipliers both positive and negative), but it would really differentiate one (for example) leaves civ from another. One that built the Golden Wood would be a shining beacon of culture and health, while one that built the Shadowed Vale would be a mysterious, close knit clan of elves that people in other cultures whisper about in fear.

We sort of have that, but you still have the build the temple in each of your cities. The one built in your capital is teh deciding one.

I think that the silver wood should have "trade routes yeild food isntead of gold"

We sort of have that, but you still have the build the temple in each of your cities. The one built in your capital is teh deciding one.

So....you build the special building in your capital, and any temples you build in your cities give it them the same traits? At least I think that's what you are saying.

think that the silver wood should have "trade routes yeild food isntead of gold"

This would be crippling to the economy. Take a look at a typical late game city,and how much of of its economy comes from trade routes.

The food from trade route would probably be a significant advantage during the Blight, though.

I'm hoping we can do a re-design on blight. But it would be usefull, then. Right now towards endgame I just do regular sweep for blight and apocalypse and sabotoge or delete any cities working on them.

So....you build the special building in your capital, and any temples you build in your cities give it them the same traits? At least I think that's what you are saying.

Yes.

This would be crippling to the economy. Take a look at a typical late game city,and how much of of its economy comes from trade routes.

Exactly. A silver wood city would have monstrous populations. What if we made silver wood be like this:

trade routes give food
each forest gives +1 health, +1 happiness
-20% gold, -20% culture, -20% production
each forest gives +1 trade route.
Huge, huge, populations, but low actual producton

The flavor I was going for the Silver Wood was a more scientific focus. ( that's why it had +science and great sage)
The Golden Wood was the population and culture focus.
The other two were two different flavors of defense.

Each forest giving +1 trade route would be a bit overpowered as well. 20 trade routes is a ton, and would be easily acheivable.

So lets get the flavor on all the leaves temples:

Silver Wood: Science
Golden Wood: Gold and culture
Shadowed Vale: Military
World Tree: um?

Roots of the World tree.

A little bit of military, a little bit of expansiveness. It's a different flavor of military than the Shadowed Vale.

The veil is all about misdirection, growing your forests deliberately dense and shadowed, and taking advantage of that. Your enemies have a hard time finding you, and have a hard time following you. This makes outsiders less willing to conduct trade through such creepy forests, but it provides excellent defense.

The Roots is about waking the trees up a bit, just enough so that they can harry and harrass invaders, but the woods can stay a bit more open and airy for freindlies, allowing culture to spread easier. They are less scary and forboding. It's a culture more ready for war than silver or gold, but not nearly as militaristic as the Shadowed are.

Golden:
Each forest gives +2 gold
+10% gold
+1 trade rotue
+25% trade route yeild
+25% war weariness
-25% military production
-25% defense in forests
-25% city defense

Silver:
+4 science, +2 scientists allowed
+25% science
-15% production
+4 great scientist points

Vale:
Enemies can only move one space per turn in forests
No gold from forests
+1 food from forests
No trade with non-fellowship civs
-1 trade route
Enemies get 0 defense in forests
You get +50% defense in forests
-25% trade route yeild
-20% culture

Roots:
Chance to entagle each enemy in radius
Forests give +2 culture
Bards give +2 culture
Forests give +1 food
-25% defense in city
-25% great person birth rate
-1 trade route

Vale:
Enemies can only move one space per turn in forests

Would this be only forests in your borders, or all forests. All forests seems kinda weird.

No gold from forests
+1 food from forests
No trade with non-fellowship civs
-1 trade route
Enemies get 0 defense in forests

Again all forests seems kinda weird, although all forests when you are attacking makes sense.

Would this be only forests in your borders, or all forests. All forests seems kinda weird.

Again all forests seems kinda weird, although all forests when you are attacking makes sense.

This is only forests in your borders. Maybe also units built in city start iwth woodsman I promotion?

Forests don't give gold now. But otherwise it seems alot better.

Golden Woods
+5% gold
+5% culture
Each forest gives+1 health.
+1trade route
+25% trade route yeild
+25% war weariness
-25% military production
-25% city defense
-25% forest defense

A Golden Woods civilization grows its forests very open and light, making them healthier and more pleasant to be in, but at the cost of defense.

I'll give Kilmorph a go:

1. Hall of Granite
+50% defense
+50%dwarven unit production
dwarves gain +2xp
Wine gives +2 happiness
Non Kilmorph religions give-1 happiness each
-20% culture
Can only trade with dwarven cities

2. The Iron Citadel
+25%military unit production
Iron gives +1 gold per trade route
Mithril gives +1 extra happiness
+1 unhealthiness
+2 great commander
-25% culture
-10% food

3. The Bottomless Quarry
Mines give +1 gold, +1 hammer
+2 unhealthiness
All units use one extra move within the city's borders.

4. RuneVault
+4 science
+25% science rate
Gems give +1 culture
Stone gives +1 science
-10% production
-10%food.

Okay, nice ones. I think that bottomless quarry should give double chance of finding resources with mines.

Iron Citadel:
+25% trade route yeild from gold instead I think

Hall of Granite:
-1 food from forests (theses are dwarves dude.)

Rune Vault:
Gems should give +1 science as well

Bottomless Quarry:
+5% production from mithril, copper, marble, stone, iron

Okay, nice ones. I think that bottomless quarry should give double chance of finding resources with mines.

Can that be coded in for a specific building? I've messed with those numbers before, but don't know if they can be altered during gameplay. It's a fantastic idea though.

I haven't looked, but I doubt it can be done with just the XML and I'm almost certain it can be done with the sdk.

I like all of those, Loki. I was having trouble comming up with anything else for the Quarry. I'd leave the Iron Citadel's bonus iron related instead of gold, I see these dwarves as being more serious, less about pretty things like gold and more into practical things like iron. Not that they don't like gold, but they worship cold hard steel more.

I like all of those, Loki. I was having trouble comming up with anything else for the Quarry. I'd leave the Iron Citadel's bonus iron related instead of gold, I see these dwarves as being more serious, less about pretty things like gold and more into practical things like iron. Not that they don't like gold, but they worship cold hard steel more.

Oops. I meant that they get +25% trade route yeild from Iron. Also from copper maybe? Those being the two no-nonsense metals?

Yeah, that makes sense as well. Maybe instead of another trade route bonus, they get another 5% general production bonus. ( on top of the 25% military only bonus).

Copper gives +5% production?

Sure, why not. They like making things out of metal. I bet they use copper toothbrushes. :D

Just a silly suggestion, it may have been made before:

Should captured animal pens either produce new animals at regular intervals or allow you to produce them at a ridiculous cost, as if they were breeding in captivity?

Perhaps if you made it so that you could sacrifice two animals of the same type in a town, the pen would let you breed animals?

Just a silly suggestion, it may have been made before:

Should captured animal pens either produce new animals at regular intervals or allow you to produce them at a ridiculous cost, as if they were breeding in captivity?

Perhaps if you made it so that you could sacrifice two animals of the same type in a town, the pen would let you breed animals?

Maybe you could give carnivals an accruing ability. After a long time the animals breed and you get more culture and happiness. Happens once every so often. Doesn't let you spread it to other cities.

Getting animals to breed is a tricky business most of the time. There are species that even today have to be artificially inseminated because they won't breed in captivity.

I think of the animal pens as similar to the captured lions and stuff the Romans used in their games. They knew how to capture them, and use them for entertainment, but they were thousands of years from figuring out how to make them into a breeding population. I think just letting the animal pen exist for hundreds of years shows some ability to get them to breed, but not much more than that.

Getting animals to breed is a tricky business most of the time. There are species that even today have to be artificially inseminated because they won't breed in captivity.

I think of the animal pens as similar to the captured lions and stuff the Romans used in their games. They knew how to capture them, and use them for entertainment, but they were thousands of years from figuring out how to make them into a breeding population. I think just letting the animal pen exist for hundreds of years shows some ability to get them to breed, but not much more than that.

Ohhhh..... animal pens that give a boost with collosums.... mmmm....

In truth I'm just a bit miffed that in my latest FfH game I have tons of lions and precious little of anything else. I would have loved to be able to build more :D

Ohhhh..... animal pens that give a boost with collosums.... mmmm....

How about Animal pens which are posessed by demons?
Animals that have experiments done on them by sadistic scientists?

In truth I'm just a bit miffed that in my latest FfH game I have tons of lions and precious little of anything else. I would have loved to be able to build more :D

It will be easier with 1.0. In 1.0 the animals don't dissapear when the barbarians appear. That way you hunt the little stuff early in the game, and you can be out hunting for tiger and bears later on.

It will be easier with 1.0. In 1.0 the animals don't dissapear when the barbarians appear. That way you hunt the little stuff early in the game, and you can be out hunting for tiger and bears later on.

There still should be a little more variation.

There still should be a little more variation.

The chance to be spawned depends on the terrain type of the map you play. Certain animals only spawn in certain terrain types. If you play on a map with a lot of tundra you will see skeletons and wolves. If you play on one with a lot of deserts and grasslands you will see more lions. If you have a lot of jungles you will see panthers and tigers.

Outside of that the chances are even.

Illian Palace: I don't see why it can't give ice mana. Either that or just give it no benefits. These guys will be weak enough as it is.

Sidar Palace: Maybe gives extra GP birth?

Citadel of Light: nice idea. Not sure what spell yet. Maybe a random one that you have access to?
It gives me the idea for a building-Beacon of Light. Increases city's sight range by one point.

Library = Magic Scrolls.

I think that Sidar buildings should allow you to appoint specialists that are the kept shades of dead people. They would be uber specialists, like +8 culture or +6 money, but they would give -1 population every many turns, to symbolize the people becoming useless and having to be replaced.

The chance to be spawned depends on the terrain type of the map you play. Certain animals only spawn in certain terrain types. If you play on a map with a lot of tundra you will see skeletons and wolves. If you play on one with a lot of deserts and grasslands you will see more lions. If you have a lot of jungles you will see panthers and tigers.

Outside of that the chances are even.

So where will minotaurs and fire breathing rabbits spawn?

Illian Palace: I don't see why it can't give ice mana. Either that or just give it no benefits. These guys will be weak enough as it is.

Because there is no ice mana while Mulcarn is dead. Illians are scheduled as a non-playable civ, they are definitly going to be behind the 8-ball. Unless a quest kicks that may reverse that dramatically....

Sidar Palace: Maybe gives extra GP birth?

I like that, I'll add it.

Citadel of Light: nice idea. Not sure what spell yet. Maybe a random one that you have access to?
It gives me the idea for a building-Beacon of Light. Increases city's sight range by one point.

Library = Magic Scrolls.

I think that Sidar buildings should allow you to appoint specialists that are the kept shades of dead people. They would be uber specialists, like +8 culture or +6 money, but they would give -1 population every many turns, to symbolize the people becoming useless and having to be replaced.

I like this too.

T3 building. Smithery- gives +10% of trade routes as sheilds per metal resource. (mithril, iron, copper)

T3 building. Smithery- gives +10% of trade routes as sheilds per metal resource. (mithril, iron, copper)

Im not sure how to do this, but I like the idea. I added it.

I know you dislike patterns, but i really think that Runes should get a special building as well. Maybe dwarven orge (the one you just added) could be it. At least the name fits.

I know you dislike patterns, but i really think that Runes should get a special building as well. Maybe dwarven orge (the one you just added) could be it. At least the name fits.

Why should they get one?

Why should they get one?

Because any civ following kilmorph would get to trade with the dwarves and learn their secrets. They'd also get to build a dwarven type city.

We have a mix of 4 Unit granting methods:

1. Normal unit tree (all the shared units, warriors, longbowmen, etc). Units granted to all civs (in general). We probably own't be adding many units here, maybe a few ships, but this unit tree is pretty solid.

2. UU's. Units that replace units in the normal tech tree for a specific civ. The non-human civs will have tons of these. The human civs could have none.

3. Resource upgrades. Upgrades to existing units that are only available if a specific resource is available. This resource could be Fire mana, Nightmares, Hellstones, Iron, Banannas, anything. Most mana types will probably allow a few of these.


Will the buildigns work in the same way?
Anyone can build an obelisk. Only elves can build elven shrine. Any civ with a nature node can build a magic garden (or something)

Will the buildigns work in the same way?
Anyone can build an obelisk. Only elves can build elven shrine. Any civ with a nature node can build a magic garden (or something)

Yes, but on a much smaller scale.

Okay, here is my first pass at converting your guys upgraded temple ideas. I broke it down to 2 buildings for each religion because it allows us to focus on the variance for that religion.

The temptation is to give each religion a science option, a culture option, etc. But if that is done the religions begin to mix together and lose their individual styles. I love the idea of having these upgraded temples make the religion more distinct but they need to stay within the parameters for that religion. It is hard to come up with 2 concepts, both of which are within the core concept for the religion but different enough from each other to create a real difference depending on what the palyer chooses.

So for example the RuneVault is no longer a strong science building because the Runes of Kilmorph is not a science religion. Also some ideas had to be dropped becaused they are used in other places (the Shadowed Vale wass to close to the Hidden trait, the Roots of the great Tree was to close to the Nature Unbound wonder).

All of these are your origional concepts but the abilities have been tweaked a lot. I haven't played much with balance so that still needs to be worked out but I wanted to get us to one common list to work from.

What do you guys think, is there anything I cut that you think needs to come back? Any improvements you would like to see on these buildings?

Runes:

1. Hall of Granite (concept: insular, defensive)
+50% defense
Non Kilmorph religions give -1 happiness each
-20% culture
-1 Trade route
-1 Food from forests
City is more likely to culture flip away from non-Runes civs

2. RuneVault (concept: wise, traditional)
Gems give +1 culture
Stone gives +1 science
-10% production
+1 Prophet GP points


Fellowship:

1. The Golden Wood (concept: open, elegant)
+25% culture
+1 trade routes
+1 great artist
+1 maintenance per unhealthiness point (I love this idea, i have no idea how to do it but Im going to see if I can do it)
+25% war weariness

2. The Shadowed Vale (concept: closed, mystical)
Units created here gain a +40% vs recon units promotion
+1 great sage
-1 trade routes.
-25% culture.


Veil:

1. Demon's altar (concept: demon worship, dark magic)
All units can be sacrificed for research, the higher the level of the unit, the more research is given
Units created here start with a +40% vs disciples promotion
-2 Happy

2. Forbidden Library (concept: intellegent)
-20% culture, +10% science
Trade routes yeild science instead of gold.
10% chance of providing a Mind mana resource


Overlords:

1. Overseer's Residence (concept: punishing, controlling)
Doubles effects of slaves sacrificed for production
Slaves sacrificed give +20 science
Population sacrificed for production gives double effects
-10% gold, culture
Free Combat 1 promotion for Lunatics

2. Theater of Dreams (concept: insane)
25% of the units produced in this city are Crazed
Additional bonus from carnival and animal pens
City is more likely to culture flip away from non-OO civs


Order:

1. Inquisitorial Halls (concept: strict)
Removes all religion but the Order from the city
Keeps religions except the order from spreading to the city
Inquisitioners can be trained early, given +4 xp if the Inq required tech is also known
Paladins created in this city gain the Command promotion
+1 happiness

2. Enforcement Offices (concept: managed)
-50% war weariness
-50% maintenance
-1 maintenance per happy
-1 maintenance per military unti in city
Doubled effect of great commanders recruit ability

Order:

1. Inquisitorial Halls (concept: strict)
Removes all religion but the Order from the city
Keeps religions except the order from spreading to the city
Inquisitioners can be trained early, given +4 xp if the Inq required tech is also known
Paladins created in this city gain the Command promotion
+1 happiness

2. Enforcement Offices (concept: managed)
-50% war weariness
-50% maintenance
-1 maintenance per happy
-1 maintenance per military unti in city
Doubled effect of great commanders recruit ability

1. I think it should stop all religions from spreading to the city.
I think that is way to powerful. What are its disadvantages? I think that it should give -2 happy.

2. -1 maintenance per happy face? What???? Shouldn't it be -1 happiness per maintenance? Also, I love the great commander thing.

Overlords:

1. Overseer's Residence (concept: punishing, controlling)
Doubles effects of slaves sacrificed for production
Slaves sacrificed give +20 science
Population sacrificed for production gives double effects
-10% gold, culture
Free Combat 1 promotion for Lunatics

2. Theater of Dreams (concept: insane)
25% of the units produced in this city are Crazed
Additional bonus from carnival and animal pens
City is more likely to culture flip away from non-OO civs


1. I think that should also give -1 happiness. Its a punishing and controlling civ, so shouldn't the people be somewhat unhappy.

2. I love this. What if that gave -10% GP points? Insane people?

Veil:

1. Demon's altar (concept: demon worship, dark magic)
All units can be sacrificed for research, the higher the level of the unit, the more research is given
Units created here start with a +40% vs disciples promotion
-2 Happy

2. Forbidden Library (concept: intellegent)
-20% culture, +10% science
Trade routes yeild science instead of gold.
10% chance of providing a Mind mana resource


1. Great one. I think that it should allow you to sacrifice population to hurry production of demons.

2. I think that it should only be allowed to trade with other veil cities. Its forbidden stuff, and the order cities wouldn't like to give them illegal scrolls.

Fellowship:

1. The Golden Wood (concept: open, elegant)
+25% culture
+1 trade routes
+1 great artist
+1 maintenance per unhealthiness point (I love this idea, i have no idea how to do it but Im going to see if I can do it)
+25% war weariness

2. The Shadowed Vale (concept: closed, mystical)
Units created here gain a +40% vs recon units promotion
+1 great sage
-1 trade routes.
-25% culture.


1. Maybe also -25% city defense? These guys won't have a huge defense. What about also +2 culture from forests?

2. That doesn't seem quite good enough. What if whenever they killed an enemy in a city's borders that city got 50% of that unit's shields added as culture? That's the kind of people they are.

Runes:

1. Hall of Granite (concept: insular, defensive)
+50% defense
Non Kilmorph religions give -1 happiness each
-20% culture
-1 Trade route
-1 Food from forests
City is more likely to culture flip away from non-Runes civs

2. RuneVault (concept: wise, traditional)
Gems give +1 culture
Stone gives +1 science
-10% production
+1 Prophet GP points


1. I think +50% defense in hills in city's radius as well.

2. -10% science should be added to signify the loss of science in a very traditional society. Also, that seems really weak, so i think that it should give +1 culture from all metals. Isn't that the status quo for dwarves? Metal toothbrushes, to quote lunargent.

Originally Posted by Kael
Order:

1. Inquisitorial Halls (concept: strict)
Removes all religion but the Order from the city
Keeps religions except the order from spreading to the city
Inquisitioners can be trained early, given +4 xp if the Inq required tech is also known
Paladins created in this city gain the Command promotion
+1 happiness

2. Enforcement Offices (concept: managed)
-50% war weariness
-50% maintenance
-1 maintenance per happy
-1 maintenance per military unti in city
Doubled effect of great commanders recruit ability

1. I think it should stop all religions from spreading to the city.
I think that is way to powerful. What are its disadvantages? I think that it should give -2 happy.

Okay, how about (changed +1 happy to +10% maintenance costs and added your block on all new religions):

1. Inquisitorial Halls (concept: strict)
Removes all religion but the Order from the city
Keeps religions from spreading to the city
Inquisitioners can be trained early, given +4 xp if the Inq required tech is also known
Paladins created in this city gain the Command promotion
+10% Maintenance


2. -1 maintenance per happy face? What???? Shouldn't it be -1 happiness per maintenance? Also, I love the great commander thing.

It was listed the other way arond but I assumed it was a typo. I assumed that the city would be cheaper to maintain for ever happy person. You want the people to be more unhappy the higher maintenance gets?

Originally Posted by Kael
Veil:

1. Demon's altar (concept: demon worship, dark magic)
All units can be sacrificed for research, the higher the level of the unit, the more research is given
Units created here start with a +40% vs disciples promotion
-2 Happy

2. Forbidden Library (concept: intellegent)
-20% culture, +10% science
Trade routes yeild science instead of gold.
10% chance of providing a Mind mana resource

1. Great one. I think that it should allow you to sacrifice population to hurry production of demons.

Except you can't build demons.

2. I think that it should only be allowed to trade with other veil cities. Its forbidden stuff, and the order cities wouldn't like to give them illegal scrolls.

Yeah, I like this too. I just cant figure out how to do it on the back end without a major revamp to the trade networks.

Yes, I think that the city should get more unhappy the more maintenacne it has. This is an uber organized civ, and any waste makes them unhappy. It shouldn't be too hard for them to maintain a maintenance free empire because units reduce happiness.

I meant demon type units like eidolons. Not just hte summoned demons. Also maybe some demon heros will exist in phase 2.

Originally Posted by Kael
Fellowship:

1. The Golden Wood (concept: open, elegant)
+25% culture
+1 trade routes
+1 great artist
+1 maintenance per unhealthiness point (I love this idea, i have no idea how to do it but Im going to see if I can do it)
+25% war weariness

2. The Shadowed Vale (concept: closed, mystical)
Units created here gain a +40% vs recon units promotion
+1 great sage
-1 trade routes.
-25% culture.

1. Maybe also -25% city defense? These guys won't have a huge defense. What about also +2 culture from forests?

Okay, how about we change to (added -25% city defense, remove war weariness):

1. The Golden Wood (concept: open, elegant)
+25% culture
+1 trade routes
+1 great artist
+1 maintenance per unhealthiness point (I love this idea, i have no idea how to do it but Im going to see if I can do it)
-25% city defense

2. That doesn't seem quite good enough. What if whenever they killed an enemy in a city's borders that city got 50% of that unit's shields added as culture? That's the kind of people they are.

Yeah, its just so close to the ideas for the hidden trait that its hard to design something here. I dont like the idea to get get culture for kills, but it does need something.

Originally Posted by Kael
Runes:

1. Hall of Granite (concept: insular, defensive)
+50% defense
Non Kilmorph religions give -1 happiness each
-20% culture
-1 Trade route
-1 Food from forests
City is more likely to culture flip away from non-Runes civs

2. RuneVault (concept: wise, traditional)
Gems give +1 culture
Stone gives +1 science
-10% production
+1 Prophet GP points

1. I think +50% defense in hills in city's radius as well.

2. -10% science should be added to signify the loss of science in a very traditional society. Also, that seems really weak, so i think that it should give +1 culture from all metals. Isn't that the status quo for dwarves? Metal toothbrushes, to quote lunargent.

I think the +50% in the city radius is to good and the -10% science is to bad. I do think the RuneVault needs something special though.

Maybe a Rune Guard, rooted and only 1 per city with a RuneVault? Special guard for the RuneVault?

Originally Posted by Kael
Overlords:

1. Overseer's Residence (concept: punishing, controlling)
Doubles effects of slaves sacrificed for production
Slaves sacrificed give +20 science
Population sacrificed for production gives double effects
-10% gold, culture
Free Combat 1 promotion for Lunatics

2. Theater of Dreams (concept: insane)
25% of the units produced in this city are Crazed
Additional bonus from carnival and animal pens
City is more likely to culture flip away from non-OO civs

1. I think that should also give -1 happiness. Its a punishing and controlling civ, so shouldn't the people be somewhat unhappy.

Your right, changed to:

1. Overseer's Residence (concept: punishing, controlling)
Doubles effects of slaves sacrificed for production
Slaves sacrificed give +20 science
Population sacrificed for production gives double effects
-10% gold, culture
Free Combat 1 promotion for Lunatics
-1 Happy

2. I love this. What if that gave -10% GP points? Insane people?

I think most great people are borderline insane anyway.

I think the +50% in the city radius is to good and the -10% science is to bad. I do think the RuneVault needs something special though.

Maybe a Rune Guard, rooted and only 1 per city with a RuneVault? Special guard for the RuneVault?

I like the rune gaurd a lot. IMO it should be a golem type unit.

I think most great people are borderline insane anyway.

True. :crazyeye:

Yeah, its just so close to the ideas for the hidden trait that its hard to design something here. I dont like the idea to get get culture for kills, but it does need something.

What if it got "enemy units can only move one space inside city borders"

Fellowship:

1. The Golden Wood (concept: open, elegant)
+25% culture
+1 trade routes
+1 great artist
+1 maintenance per unhealthiness point (I love this idea, i have no idea how to do it but Im going to see if I can do it)
+25% war weariness

I think either the -25% defense or war weariness work equally well.

One way to do the maintenance per unhealthy point is to change the forge and training yard and other such unhealthy providing buildings to give +1 or +2 maintenance when they are in a city with this type building. +1 unhealthy per total unhealthy point would be bankrupting for large cities I've come to realize, but limiting it to a penalty for building unhealthy buildings would maybe be more thematic for the culture by keeping 'smelly' and unbeautifull buildings out of their cities.


2. The Shadowed Vale (concept: closed, mystical)
Units created here gain a +40% vs recon units promotion
+1 great sage
-1 trade routes.
-25% culture.



I think instead of the anti-recon units promotion more xp for recon units built there would be better. But I think a bonus to defense while within forests would be even better.

Also, it'll probably need +1 science to balance out the -1 trade routes and keep with the mystical theme,since trade routes=cash=research.

Runes:

1. Hall of Granite (concept: insular, defensive)
+50% defense
Non Kilmorph religions give -1 happiness each
-20% culture
-1 Trade route
-1 Food from forests
City is more likely to culture flip away from non-Runes civs

I think this is good as is. Yeah, +50% defense within the entire borders would be too much. Although, 50% within the city and 50% more defense for forts could be good. ( though the damned barbs and AI invaders just go around units posted in forts. Something needs to be done about that by Firaxis).

I think the -1 food from forests could hurt alot, but that the unhealthiness penalty from certain buildings could be removed for these cities. The dwarves might not mind the noise of a training yard, or the reek of the forge like you or I do. It's probably music to their ears, and incense to their noses. They'd probably still get sick from public baths though.

2. RuneVault (concept: wise, traditional)
Gems give +1 culture
Stone gives +1 science
-10% production
+1 Prophet GP points

Since we don't have the Iron Citadel anymore, with its bonuses from metal resources, I think a few of them should be put here. For Mithril at the least. How about +1 production, +1 happiness from mithril.

I don't see may dwarves being paragons of culture, sure it's a fantasy stereotype, but what isn't? So instead of -10% production, I'd change it to -10% culture. Sure, that leaves both dwarven specializations with penalties to culture, but honestly I don't think dwarves should be winning culture victories all that often. They prefer solid things to fancy things as I see it. The ideal type victory for them, in my imagination, is the as yet- unfinalized build type victory or a military type if they dream darker.

Here are some buildings i've thought of.
Malakim-Altar to the sun. +1 visibility from cultural borders.
-Desert Shrine. +1 food, +2 great person points from deserts.
Elohim-Temple of the gaurdians. +25% defense, 20% of units built in city start with defensive. Allows training of gaurdian spirit, gaurdian angel, apprenticed gaurdsman (a dude apprenticed to a spirit)
Balseraphs-Freak Show. +3 great artist points from each carnival pen. +15% culture.
Grigori-Gallows. -50% maintenance, -1 happy from other religions.

Here are some buildings i've thought of.
Malakim-Altar to the sun. +1 visibility from cultural borders.
-Desert Shrine. +1 food, +2 great person points from deserts.
Elohim-Temple of the gaurdians. +25% defense, 20% of units built in city start with defensive. Allows training of gaurdian spirit, gaurdian angel, apprenticed gaurdsman (a dude apprenticed to a spirit)
Balseraphs-Freak Show. +3 great artist points from each carnival pen. +15% culture.
Grigori-Gallows. -50% maintenance, -1 happy from other religions.

I need more civ specific building ideas like these. These are great ideas Loki. Im going to check them all in except for the Gallows. I love the name of the building though, I just don't like the effect. What else could a Gallows do?

A gallows could let you get rid of unhappy citizens so that they stop eating your food and adding to maintenance costs. Make it allow you to choose to remove one unhappy citizen per turn and turn it into 20 culture and 20 gold. You lose city size (and some score points), but it's a rather draconic way to get rid of unhappiness.

I need more civ specific building ideas like these. These are great ideas Loki. Im going to check them all in except for the Gallows. I love the name of the building though, I just don't like the effect. What else could a Gallows do?

Perhaps give +2 happy if there are 3 or more military untis in the city, but -1 happy if there is only 1 unit?

More UB's:
Hippus-Mercenary Barracks. +20% military production, gets a -50% hurry cost on all horse units.
Lanun-Pirate Port. Costal only. -1 trade route. Allows pirates, +100% domestic trade route yeild, +100% gold from returning pirates.
Amurites-Mage School. they can build one of these for each magic node they control. Units built in the city get a free magic resistance to that type of magic. The school counts as +1 when calculating the number of naode of that type for newly built mages (finding out which promotions they start with.)
Sheiam-Grimoire Repository. Can build any summonable unit that they have a node for. Summoning level 2 units require 2 nodes. These units have low cost but are removed after one battle. Limit 3 of each type.

How about this for the Pirate Port-

Make it a terrain tile improvement like a fort that is only buildable on coast tiles via work-boat.

Make it act as another tradeable location for all coastal cities. So it acts as a culture-less city that is buildable in any coast tile, that can get one coastal city trade route to generate commerce, but that doesn't incur maintenence or grow.

Make it buildable in neutral terrain as well, and give +50% defense to all ships docked there.

It then becomes a pirate fort away from home, greatly facilitating sea-based raiding by allowing ships a safe port away from home, that also generates a bit of revenue on the side.

How about this for the Pirate Port-

Make it a terrain tile improvement like a fort that is only buildable on coast tiles via work-boat.

Make it act as another tradeable location for all coastal cities. So it acts as a culture-less city that is buildable in any coast tile, that can get one coastal city trade route to generate commerce, but that doesn't incur maintenence or grow.

Make it buildable in neutral terrain as well, and give +50% defense to all ships docked there.

It then becomes a pirate fort away from home, greatly facilitating sea-based raiding by allowing ships a safe port away from home, that also generates a bit of revenue on the side.


That's really a nice idea. Increaes healing as well i presume?

Yeah, that would make it even more usefull.it should probably generate a small amount of culture that doesn't spread outside it's one square as well, just to keep it from being taken over by culture.

I wouldn't mind if it was easy to take by culture. Pirates aren't exactly known for national loyalty.

There's a difference between easy and automatic though. A fort with no culture would be automatically taken over if another civ built near it.

Elves:
Nature Shrine--
+20% health. No unhealthiness from terrain.

Kuriotates:
Book of Creation--
Food may be used to build religious units in this city.

Luchuirp:
Enchanter's Workshop--
+50% city defense, but counted as cultural.
Counts as +1 enchantment mana when giving mages starting promotions in this city.
Golem Workshop--
Golems start with the same spellcasting abilities as an adept built in this city.
Golems start with Combat I promotion.
Enchanter's Scrolls--
10% chance of yeilding a random, non-controlled, node.
Equipment built twice as fast.
+1 happiness.

All Dwarves:
Dwarven Armory--
+50% equipment production
Dwarves built in city start with quality armor.
+1 happy with mithral
+1 unhealthy

Calabim:
Thrull Houses--
+25% growth rate
-1 happy
+3 gold, +3 production

Grigori:
Houses of Trial--
Stops non-religion spread
+1 happy
Punishment Arena--
-3 unhappiness from buildings
-1 happiness from each religious building in city
Schools of the Hunters--
UU's start with +4 xp
-1 trade route
UU's start with metamagic 3, sorcery 3 (anti-magic shell)

Clan of Embers:
Burning Trophies--
+25% city defense
Units build in city start with Fire 1
+1 unhealthy

How about this for the Pirate Port-

Make it a terrain tile improvement like a fort that is only buildable on coast tiles via work-boat.

Make it act as another tradeable location for all coastal cities. So it acts as a culture-less city that is buildable in any coast tile, that can get one coastal city trade route to generate commerce, but that doesn't incur maintenence or grow.

Make it buildable in neutral terrain as well, and give +50% defense to all ships docked there.

It then becomes a pirate fort away from home, greatly facilitating sea-based raiding by allowing ships a safe port away from home, that also generates a bit of revenue on the side.

Good idea, checked in.

Elves:
Nature Shrine--
+20% health. No unhealthiness from terrain.

They have to much stuff along these lines already.

Kuriotates:
Book of Creation--
Food may be used to build religious units in this city.

Im not getting the flavor for this, are they sacrificing the food to get the units?

Luchuirp:
Enchanter's Workshop--
+50% city defense, but counted as cultural.
Counts as +1 enchantment mana when giving mages starting promotions in this city.

I dont like the + defence part but I like the idea of having it count as a mana node for units in that city (without actually providing the mana). If we use the mechanic is this the mana type and civ we want to use it for? (you know me, I wont add a building like this for every mana). If we were to do this for 1 or 2 civs/manas which 1 or 2 make the most sense?

Ill add the building after I hear some opinions on this.

Golem Workshop--
Golems start with the same spellcasting abilities as an adept built in this city.
Golems start with Combat I promotion.
Enchanter's Scrolls--
10% chance of yeilding a random, non-controlled, node.
Equipment built twice as fast.
+1 happiness.

We may make some special golems that require this workshop but i dont like giving golems spellcasting ability (although some may kick off a spell automatically each turn) or popping nodes.

Okay, here are some more UB's:

Calabim:
Slaughterhouse-- (where the humans are eaten)
Double XP from vampirism.
+3 sheilds.
+1 unhappiness.
Feeding yards-- (where the garbage is left for the humans)
-1 food.
+25% growth rate.
-20% unhealthiness

Lanun:
Smuggler's Hideaway--
+1 trade route
-1 gold
Boarding parties in city may attack adjacent enemy ships as though they were on board a ship.
Illegal Docks--
-75gold ship hurry cost
+50% ship heal rate
+20% maintenance
+25% trade route yeild
Pirate Taverns--
+1 happy per pirate ship in city.
+20% maintenance
+1 happy with wine
+3 gold

Doviello:
Temple of Beasts--
Allows one draft
UU's start with divine I
Trophy Boneyard--
-25% war weariness
+1 unhealthiness
+1 happy
Beast Spawning Pits--
For each cage of the carnival the city may build a human animal hybrid of that unit. ie: tiger man.
These have twice the strength of the animal, and treat all terrain as roads. Are animal type.
Limit of 3 hybrids per cage.
+1 unhappiness.

Clan of Embers:
Altar of Flaming blood--(sacrifice human captives)
Units built in city start with fire II (Bhall is happy)
Units built in city gain the enslaver promotion (20% of defeated human units turned into slaves)
Slaves may be sacrificed for +100 culture, +2 happy for 10 turns.

Amurites:
Caves of Ancestry--
+1 happy.
UU's start with divine I.
Enemy spells get -75% power while in city radius.

They have to much stuff along these lines already.
True. What if it gave double health from forests?
Im not getting the flavor for this, are they sacrificing the food to get the units?
Yeah I've forgotten myself by now.
I dont like the + defence part but I like the idea of having it count as a mana node for units in that city (without actually providing the mana). If we use the mechanic is this the mana type and civ we want to use it for? (you know me, I wont add a building like this for every mana). If we were to do this for 1 or 2 civs/manas which 1 or 2 make the most sense?
Just ignore the defense part. I personally think this works better for the amurites (note an earlier post). They would have 21 magic academies. One per city allowed, once one is built no others may be. These academies would require a node of the specific type, and once built would give +1 node when counting the number of nodes for mages built in that city.

For the grigori palace, what it it totally stopped all religion spread to that city?

Here's some quick UB's:
Bannor-Halls of Justice
-10% science
+2 happy
Reduces chance of enemy spy missions

Luchuirp-
Magical Sanitation System:
-50% unhealthiness from population
-10% city defense
All units stationed in city are immune to disease (while in city)
Lie-Proof Marketplace:
+3 gold from merchants
-1 trade route
+50% trade rotue yeild
Magical Walls:
+50% Defense against magic
-10% shields
+25% defense against non-human units
Ancient Weapons Stash:
Units built in city start with enchanted weapons (spellstaff, enchanted blade, fire arrows)
No chance of mines finding minerals in city borders
+25% trade route yeild
+1 trade route

Malakim:
Lantern of Truth-
-25% maintenance
Highly increased spread of state religion
Requires state religion

Kuriotates:
Cardith's Villa (buildings built everywhere in hopes that Cardith will visit)-
+3 happy
+100% domestic trade routes
-15% defense

Um for the OO temple upgrades i think that the Theatre of Dreams should give lunatics combat one instead of Overseer's Residence.

Lanun:
Pirate port- Make it a terrain tile improvement like a fort that is only buildable on coast tiles via work-boat. Make it act as another tradeable location for all coastal cities. So it acts as a culture-less city that is buildable in any coast tile, that can get one coastal city trade route to generate commerce, but that doesn't incur maintenence or grow. Make it buildable in neutral terrain as well, and give +50% defense to all ships docked there and some minor healing. It then becomes a pirate fort away from home, greatly facilitating sea-based raiding by allowing ships a safe port away from home, that also generates a bit of revenue on the side. Could this be a very limited city? prototype for the outposts we plan on having in Hell? (Lunargent)

I like most of these ideas. Slight changes:
1. Land units should be allowed to be in it. Basically it could be defended either by land or sa units, and attacked by either. Also, Boarding parties in the Pirate Port can attack adjacent enemy ships.
2. Pirate Ships returnign here should have the gold in their ships deposited in your treasury.
3. Can see the spaces around it even if no unit is in it.
4. Capturable by other civs.
5. Things like Great Lighthouse should give these +2 trade routes, so they will still be good in the end-game.
6. If the lanun workboats are gonna build these, then maybe they should have a comabt strength.
7. To keep these from being mass produced, what if they must not overlap each other's sight ranges?

It might be a prototype for the outposts, but i think we should get the pirate ports working first.

Clan of Embers:
Waste Burning Field-
+2 health
-50% maintenance
-10% great person birth

Balseraph:
Toymaker's Shop--
Animal Cages allow building clockwork animals.
These clockwork animals are as strong as a normal animal, but are golem type.
They can be used to build carnival cages in other cities.
+1 happy

Added some Luchurip buildings (workshops that give bonuses to golems made in the city).

Okay, here are some more UB's:

Calabim:
Slaughterhouse-- (where the humans are eaten)
Double XP from vampirism.
+3 sheilds.
+1 unhappiness.
Feeding yards-- (where the garbage is left for the humans)
-1 food.
+25% growth rate.
-20% unhealthiness

Lanun:
Smuggler's Hideaway--
+1 trade route
-1 gold
Boarding parties in city may attack adjacent enemy ships as though they were on board a ship.
Illegal Docks--
-75gold ship hurry cost
+50% ship heal rate
+20% maintenance
+25% trade route yeild
Pirate Taverns--
+1 happy per pirate ship in city.
+20% maintenance
+1 happy with wine
+3 gold

Doviello:
Temple of Beasts--
Allows one draft
UU's start with divine I
Trophy Boneyard--
-25% war weariness
+1 unhealthiness
+1 happy
Beast Spawning Pits--
For each cage of the carnival the city may build a human animal hybrid of that unit. ie: tiger man.
These have twice the strength of the animal, and treat all terrain as roads. Are animal type.
Limit of 3 hybrids per cage.
+1 unhappiness.

Clan of Embers:
Altar of Flaming blood--(sacrifice human captives)
Units built in city start with fire II (Bhall is happy)
Units built in city gain the enslaver promotion (20% of defeated human units turned into slaves)
Slaves may be sacrificed for +100 culture, +2 happy for 10 turns.

Amurites:
Caves of Ancestry--
+1 happy.
UU's start with divine I.
Enemy spells get -75% power while in city radius.

Im thinking the Amurite UB will be the one that grants the +1 xp for every different mana resource they have. What do you think, should that be an ability they just start with or require a special building?

Of these buildling suggestions they offer a group of pros and cons, but nothing is really striking me as quite right. I do love the "Cave of Ancestry" name, I actually didn't catch the significance of the name the first time I read it. :)

I like the idea for the sacrifical altar too. Bascially a building that boosts the benifit of sacrificing captured slaves and animals. but do you think is should be civ specific or open to anyone?

Balseraph:
Toymaker's Shop--
Animal Cages allow building clockwork animals.
These clockwork animals are as strong as a normal animal, but are golem type.
They can be used to build carnival cages in other cities.
+1 happy

Functionally this is going to far into the Luchuirp style of golem units (though I agree "Toymaker" flavor is perfectly Balseraph).

1. Im thinking the Amurite UB will be the one that grants the +1 xp for every different mana resource they have. What do you think, should that be an ability they just start with or require a special building?

Of these buildling suggestions they offer a group of pros and cons, but nothing is really striking me as quite right. I do love the "Cave of Ancestry" name, I actually didn't catch the significance of the name the first time I read it. :)

2. I like the idea for the sacrifical altar too. Bascially a building that boosts the benifit of sacrificing captured slaves and animals. but do you think is should be civ specific or open to anyone?

1. I think that they should build a magic academy to get the XP bonus, and then they could specialize that with later buildings to get the +1 node when calculating starting spells. Also, the magic academy would give +10% science and allow a sage.

What kind of buildings would you like? I put these because I think that they will serve to make a calabim's cities much different from a luchuirp city, etc.

2. I think that this should be a doviello building only because we need a drool factor for them and i think they are the type to bring back victims and then ritually sacrifice them.

Functionally this is going to far into the Luchuirp style of golem units (though I agree "Toymaker" flavor is perfectly Balseraph).

Yeah. Well what if we have a building with this effect for the Luchuirp, (Nature Golem Scrolls) and make the toymaker into this:
+2 happy.
+20% trade route yeild per cage.

with engineering.

Of these buildling suggestions they offer a group of pros and cons, but nothing is really striking me as quite right. I do love the "Cave of Ancestry" name, I actually didn't catch the significance of the name the first time I read it. :)

Some of these buildings I agree with you are unneeded, but i think that some of them are good becuase they help with the drool factor of the civ.

Calabim:
Slaughterhouse-- (where the humans are eaten)
Double XP from vampirism.
+3 sheilds.
+1 unhappiness.

Grigori:
Houses of Trial--
Stops non-religion spread
+1 happy

Lanun:
Pirate Docks--
-50 gold Privateer hurry cost
+50% gold from returning pirates
Boarding Parties gets +4 XP
-2 gold.

Some of these buildings I agree with you are unneeded, but i think that some of them are good becuase they help with the drool factor of the civ.

Calabim:
Slaughterhouse-- (where the humans are eaten)
Double XP from vampirism.
+3 sheilds.
+1 unhappiness.

I just don't know that this makes it very fun. With a boost to xp it will become required that any city a player is going to Feast in will need one of these. And if you always need them, or if it always makes sense to build them, there is no real strategic choice (outside of spending the time to build it). And its not that we should counter that by increasing the negatives.

The strategic decision is "should I sacrifice population to strengthen my unit?" I don't know if we want to add more variables to that equation.

That said if you think the slauterhouse (bonus xp) is better function than breeding pit (bonus growth) then we could probably replace it. But since we already have one building that helps the Feast mechanic I hate to put in another. I tend to prefer the Breeding Pit because players can build them in the early game and get some use out of them before their vampires become available.

Grigori:
Houses of Trial--
Stops non-religion spread
+1 happy

Their Agnostic trait will already do this (mostly do this, I don't want to completly block religion spreads).

Lanun:
Pirate Docks--
-50 gold Privateer hurry cost
+50% gold from returning pirates
Boarding Parties gets +4 XP
-2 gold.

A booster for a specific function. I think ti will just add to the overwhelm factor without providing enough value.

I just don't know that this makes it very fun. With a boost to xp it will become required that any city a player is going to Feast in will need one of these. And if you always need them, or if it always makes sense to build them, there is no real strategic choice (outside of spending the time to build it). And its not that we should counter that by increasing the negatives.

The strategic decision is "should I sacrifice population to strengthen my unit?" I don't know if we want to add more variables to that equation.

That said if you think the slauterhouse (bonus xp) is better function than breeding pit (bonus growth) then we could probably replace it. But since we already have one building that helps the Feast mechanic I hate to put in another. I tend to prefer the Breeding Pit because players can build them in the early game and get some use out of them before their vampires become available.

My idea was to have this available late game. That way it is still useful to have vampires late in the game, even when there are higher strength units. (also, in the latest version vampires can't learn spells. Not sure if this is intentional)

My idea was to have this available late game. That way it is still useful to have vampires late in the game, even when there are higher strength units. (also, in the latest version vampires can't learn spells. Not sure if this is intentional)

Once i get the mana resources in we can start passing out spells to units the right way. I put the creation, death and fire resources in tonight. I hope to have them all in for the next version. Ill put the palaces in to and we will have adepts that start with spells based on the spheres they have access to. :)

Bannor:
Courts--
+2 happy
-2 gold
+20% trade route yeild

Hippus:
Mercenary Stables--
Horsemen start with +3 XP
Mounted Units get -75 gold hurry cost.
Mercenaries get the Pirate mechanic (gold from defeated enemies)

Grotesque Statuary (balseraphs)
Sacrificed slaves give +1 permament happiness
+3 culture
N.B. They're turning the slaves into statues.

+Enforcement Office (concept: managed)
-50% war weariness
-50% maintenance
-1 maintenance per happy (not in yet)
-1 maintenance per military unit in city (not in yet)
Doubled effect of great commanders recruit ability

The Shadowed Vale (concept: closed, mystical)
Units created here gain a +40% vs recon units promotion
+1 great sage
-1 trade routes.
-25% culture.

Theater of Dreams (concept: insane)
25% of the units produced in this city are Crazed
Additional bonus from carnival and animal pens
City is more likely to culture flip away from non-OO civs

Okay, I looked at the temple upgrades and I think that they need a little balancing.

1. Enforcement Office has literally no disadvantage. Maybe -20% GP birth?

2. Shadowed Vale is much too weak. Maybe working forests gives +2 science or something?

3. I think that theater of dreams should give all lunatics "produced" in the city the combat one promotion. Those guys are suppposed to be insane, and this is there kinda place. Take it away from Overseer's residence and add it here.

Concerning the temple upgrades:


No, then I would need to search all the cities again to see where the forbidden and winter palaces are. The nice thing about the capital is I can call it directly (i dont need to search through all fo the cities looking for the capital).

So the player with the Ashen Veil as their state religion can build one of the ashen veil upgraded temples in his capital. It will destroy his normal ashen veil temple and keep it (and the other ashen veil upgrades) from being able to be built. Once the upgraded temple is built in his capital he will be able to build that upgraded temple (and only that one) in all of his cities.

Keep in mind that a capital can change. You will have to move the flavour building on palace rebuild.

Okay, I looked at the temple upgrades and I think that they need a little balancing.

1. Enforcement Office has literally no disadvantage. Maybe -20% GP birth?

The disadvantage is that it keeps you from building the other temple upgrade. I could still add the -20% gp birth rate if you think its overpowered, but I dont see a reason to add it just so it will have a disadvantage. Let me know what you think.

2. Shadowed Vale is much too weak. Maybe working forests gives +2 science or something?

Yeah I agree. I dont like the science boost though, any other ideas?

3. I think that theater of dreams should give all lunatics "produced" in the city the combat one promotion. Those guys are suppposed to be insane, and this is there kinda place. Take it away from Overseer's residence and add it here.

I like the overseer's boosting the lunatics because they are causing the asylums to be run more efficently.

I was thinking about making the Runevault and the Theater of Dreams into wonders. So the players have the choice of making the Runevault/Theater of Dreams in one of their cities or the other option in all of their cities. The reason I really wanted to do this is because I wanted the Runevault to give a science bonus for every Runes city, way to powerful for a non-wonder.

What do you guys think?

Can you add a Symbol (% or something) on each building we already have the final Art for? This would make it easier to pick some to create graphics for.

The disadvantage is that it keeps you from building the other temple upgrade. I could still add the -20% gp birth rate if you think its overpowered, but I dont see a reason to add it just so it will have a disadvantage. Let me know what you think.
I think all of the temple upgrade should have a disadvantage. The loss of creativity is the price a controlling civ has to pay.

Yeah I agree. I dont like the science boost though, any other ideas?
Perhaps 25% of units built in city are invisible?

I like the overseer's boosting the lunatics because they are causing the asylums to be run more efficently.

I was thinking about making the Runevault and the Theater of Dreams into wonders. So the players have the choice of making the Runevault/Theater of Dreams in one of their cities or the other option in all of their cities. The reason I really wanted to do this is because I wanted the Runevault to give a science bonus for every Runes city, way to powerful for a non-wonder.

What do you guys think?

I think that they should be kept as temple upgrades. At least theater of dreams. I think that having a bonus for each city of your religion would be too much like a holy city shrine. (the AV one for example)

I really think that the balseraphs should be able to build a "Garden of Statues" this would give +20% culture. Then they would get a "twisted sculptor" that when he won battles enslaved enemies into statues. Like another carnival.

I was thinking about making the Runevault and the Theater of Dreams into wonders. So the players have the choice of making the Runevault/Theater of Dreams in one of their cities or the other option in all of their cities. The reason I really wanted to do this is because I wanted the Runevault to give a science bonus for every Runes city, way to powerful for a non-wonder.

What do you guys think?

The Problem with them being wonder is that you force an decision on other players of the same religion or are forced to adopt the other kind of religious way. Furthermore you get both if you capture the wonder as they are not destroyed by your invasion.

The workaroud for these problems would of course be making them National wonders.

The Problem with them being wonder is that you force an decision on other players of the same religion or are forced to adopt the other kind of religious way. Furthermore you get both if you capture the wonder as they are not destroyed by your invasion.

The workaroud for these problems would of course be making them National wonders.

You and Loki are right. I think I will keep both as normal buildings.

Do we still plan to drop some of the tier 3 buildings and make the tier 4 units only available through upgrading them from tier 3 guys? If yes which buildings would be dropped?

Do we still plan to drop some of the tier 3 buildings and make the tier 4 units only available through upgrading them from tier 3 guys? If yes which buildings would be dropped?

Good point, I went through and marked the building that could possibly be removed.

I think that the Sidar Palace should also give +2 bard points. People also suspend their souls to make art.
if this is too much better than the grigori palace then have the grigori palace stop religion spread to that city or allow early training of inquisitors.

As an artist, I'd have to say that people suspend their souls when they don't make art. I don't see the Sidar as artists *shrug*.

As an artist, I'd have to say that people suspend their souls when they don't make art. I don't see the Sidar as artists *shrug*.

There are a few types of people that bcome sidar. One of those are artists looking to create forever. Though at first they accomplish their goals as the years roll by and they consume more and more of their soul their art becomes as lifeless and bland as the shade himself. Whats more the artist looses his passion and either drops it entirely or continues on in simple force of habit rather than from a love of creation.

I think loki's earlier idea of the enhanced specialists is a better idea than the bonus great people points. I think I will change the palace to boost all specialists.

I noticed that the temple upgrades require seven normal temples. I really dislike this idea because it means i need 7 cities. I rarely expand beyond 5. Why don't you just have it require a temple in the capital?

I noticed that the temple upgrades require seven normal temples. I really dislike this idea because it means i need 7 cities. I rarely expand beyond 5. Why don't you just have it require a temple in the capital?

It is supposed to be 5. The reason it requires some is because I think a culture should show some investment in the religion before getting access to the advanced temples.

Is 5 good, do you think 4 or 3 would be better? What does everyone else think?

It is supposed to be 5. The reason it requires some is because I think a culture should show some investment in the religion before getting access to the advanced temples.

Is 5 good, do you think 4 or 3 would be better? What does everyone else think?

5 or 6 is fine. I just don't like 7.

I cut Treehome and Necropolis. They were collateral damage of removing the racial unitcombats which I am working on today. It wouldn't be that hard to keep the buildings doing everything they did before but it gave me a good chance to review what they did. The religious buildings are kinda redundant with the new advanced temples.

But I wanted to keep the Basilica and of course what would the Overlords be without their wonderful Asylum. :)

I never really liked the treehome much so its probably gone forever. But I love the flavor and the building art for the Necropolis so Im sure we will find a place for it somewhere. Maybe a wonder that provides death mana. I might also steal the art for one of the veil advanced temples.

:cry:

Being an avid woodelf I object to the removal of Treehome!

But since I rarely ever built one I agree. ;)

It is supposed to be 5. The reason it requires some is because I think a culture should show some investment in the religion before getting access to the advanced temples.

Is 5 good, do you think 4 or 3 would be better? What does everyone else think?

5 is fine. I never expand beyond 5 until I start capturing cities either.

i just thought about my idea of a ever present Vampire in calabim civs cities.
How about giving the free Vampire Aristocrat specialist to the calabims version of the Elder council. This seems the best replacement, as there are no elders ruling but the vampires ;).

I'd give the Aristocrat +1 Culture or +1 Science.

i just thought about my idea of a ever present Vampire in calabim civs cities.
How about giving the free Vampire Aristocrat specialist to the calabims version of the Elder council. This seems the best replacement, as there are no elders ruling but the vampires ;).

I'd give the Aristocrat +1 Culture or +1 Science.

Ahhh.. fantastic idea. I will have to look at how to add a new specialist. enabling it from the calabim palace or the govenors manor would work great.

Just noticing the Governors mansion now seems a little overpowered.What if it also gave -1 happy?

Just noticing the Governors mansion now seems a little overpowered.What if it also gave -1 happy?

My thought was that the manor would be useless in small cities but great in large ones. I removed the maintenance benifit (the governors would require their pay after all) and increased the cost from 120 to 150 hammers. I wanted to force calabim players to have to decide if a city was going to be a production city or a feeder town.

Does the breeding pit only give +2 food or does it add to the growth rate too (like a granary) with maybe +15% or +20%. That would fit i feel.

Does the breeding pit only give +2 food or does it add to the growth rate too (like a granary) with maybe +15% or +20%. That would fit i feel.

I believe the granary doesnt directly help with growth it keeps the bar from having to start over when you geta population fill (so instead of going to 0 you start are 30% or whatever). The only way to "speed up the bar" is to generate food which does seem counter intuitive.

Im not adverse to changing it if you think the other way makes more sense. i was also thinking about dropping the granary and smokehouses pop saving effect so cities grow slower.

Yeap the granary speeds up the growth speed (effectly needing less food to grow as some is kept, so in reality you speed up growth eg 7 turns in stead of 10 as you start with 30%) and the breeding pit does this, too, but on another level, by providing food. Furtehrmore it allows the city to grow one point farther due to the two free food.

I would propose to tone down smokehouse and granary a bit down (both maybe 20%, but not so that they are not worth building).

For the breeding pit i really like the combination of the two effects (+food, speeds up growth at low pop, -1 health reduces the effect on high pop)

I would therefor like +15% growth that it is usefull in big cities two.
How about changing it to: +2 food, +2 sick people, +15% growth.
Thus it would speed up growth double in healthy cities but have no food effect in unhealthy ones. But it would still boost growth at big populations.

One other question that comes to my mind is: What is the idea behing reducing the GP rate so dratically? (Pacifism and Philosophical towned down, GP cost increased) I'm not a GPP player myself, but i fear that basing ones realm at least partially on Specialists and GP is no longer a strategic valid choice in FfH.

Yeap the granary speeds up the growth speed (effectly needing less food to grow as some is kept, so in reality you speed up growth eg 7 turns in stead of 10 as you start with 30%) and the breeding pit does this, too, but on another level, by providing food. Furtehrmore it allows the city to grow one point farther due to the two free food.

I would propose to tone down smokehouse and granary a bit down (both maybe 20%, but not so that they are not worth building).

For the breeding pit i really like the combination of the two effects (+food, speeds up growth at low pop, -1 health reduces the effect on high pop)

I would therefor like +15% growth that it is usefull in big cities two.
How about changing it to: +2 food, +2 sick people, +15% growth.
Thus it would speed up growth double in healthy cities but have no food effect in unhealthy ones. But it would still boost growth at big populations.

Sounds good i will do it.

One other question that comes to my mind is: What is the idea behing reducing the GP rate so dratically? (Pacifism and Philosophical towned down, GP cost increased) I'm not a GPP player myself, but i fear that basing ones realm at least partially on Specialists and GP is no longer a strategic valid choice in FfH.

Just because there are so many more things that add GPP points that I had to slow down the general rate to even it out. Especially if we want to be able to design GPP pushing strategies.

Pacifism and Philo got reduced when I entered other civis that also boost GPP. The GPP limit got raised when I added normal buildings that grant GPP points. Let me know what you think when you play through (something I am unable to do so Im a bad judge) but that was my thinking when I made the changes.

Jeap we will see when the Game gets playtested. We might create an list of questions that should be answererd by the beta testers, as specific feedback might help us to better balance the mod and there are of course a big chunk of guys out there with much more time to play than we are. ;)

I have one additional idea - not sure if it works with the standard XML through: I rarely see me build the Elders council (the market is built often and the obelik too, but as they are kind of three sides of a coin we might treat them similar. Btw: 1 science is much less that two netto commerce for the other two buildings - and i know that was discussed sometimes in the past when the -1 culture was taken away)
The idea is to make the Eldercouncil add one science to each Sage, the obelisk one culture to each bard and the market to add one coin to each merchant (settlet great people included). Therefor we reduce the basic yields of those specialists by one.
We might even add the one or other wonder that increases the specialists yields for just one town.

+%Library- Needs renamed <- Scriptorium ?

+%Library- Needs renamed <- Scriptorium ?

Definitly needs a new name, you are right. I dont know if scriptorium is right, what do you call a place where you train people to use magic?

Academy of theurgy, Wizards school, Hall of Apprenticeship

Definitly needs a new name, you are right. I dont know if scriptorium is right, what do you call a place where you train people to use magic?

Hogwart's? :)

I guess I never noticed the Asylum's effect's before, but is it normal to go -4 happiness? I know it says -2, but in my game I was 9>7 in happy/unhappy. I built the Asylum and it turned to 9<11! Ouch. To top it off I never check the prereqs on Lunatics and I don't have Iron Working yet! Ugh.

I guess I never noticed the Asylum's effect's before, but is it normal to go -4 happiness? I know it says -2, but in my game I was 9>7 in happy/unhappy. I built the Asylum and it turned to 9<11! Ouch. To top it off I never check the prereqs on Lunatics and I don't have Iron Working yet! Ugh.

No, it should only lower happiness by 2.

No, it should only lower happiness by 2.

Is there any reason that building the Asylum would have triggered the "we feel unsafe" and give me -2 happiness for that? It added up to 4, but I think 2 from Asylum and 2 from that. I wasn't at war so my people were safe with 2 Drown and no barbs anywhere.

Is there any reason that building the Asylum would have triggered the "we feel unsafe" and give me -2 happiness for that? It added up to 4, but I think 2 from Asylum and 2 from that. I wasn't at war so my people were safe with 2 Drown and no barbs anywhere.

Nothing i know of. Maybe your population increased and that is causing the increased concern.

Undead don't give MilitaryHappiness so your people don't feel well protected because you've filled their city with zombies.

Nothing i know of. Maybe your population increased and that is causing the increased concern.

Undead don't give MilitaryHappiness so your people don't feel well protected because you've filled their city with zombies.

No, I had my settings at no growth and only finished the Asylum after getting the +2 difference needed to offset it. The only thing I can think of is that I had an Open Border agreement with Jonas and he had a goblin unit there. That very turn he canceled so no more goblin unit. Would that goblin have made my people feel safer?

Yeapp that goblin could have made them happier.

Those poor people, all of their hope in a foreign goblin to protect them from the brain eating undead that infest their town. What kind of empire are you running over there Woodelf?!? :D

That settles that. One measely pow 1 goblin from a non-ally made my people feel safe. :confused:

Fickle slaves!

Those poor people, all of their hope in a foreign goblin to protect them from the brain eating undead that infest their town. What kind of empire are you running over there Woodelf?!? :D

Every civ tells me that I treat my people poorly. :lol:

Every civ tells me that I treat my people poorly.

I think they should only say that if they treat their people better (and i doubt they do). Do you query their own civics, too, Kael?

I think they should only say that if they treat their people better (and i doubt they do). Do you query their own civics, too, Kael?

I assumed they were saying that because of my Slavery civic only.

Can you sacrifice population with slavery? i think you cant. We should introduce a healt care or labor civic that allows it (definetly low compassion through :) ) I have made that proposal in the civics thread through ...

They do not like you as you use the fend for yourself civic.

I think they should only say that if they treat their people better (and i doubt they do). Do you query their own civics, too, Kael?

Currently the only qualifier is if you have your Compassion civic set to 'Fend for Themselves' or 'Sacrifice the Weak' they consider you a low compassion leader and if you have the other 2 they consider you a High compassion civ.

I didnt put in a check to make sure they had a higher compassion setting before they applied the result. So as is the Kuriotates will look down their nose at you for being at 'Fend for Themselves' even when they are at the same option.

It is certainly easy enough to add that if you guys want it.

It did bother me all the time that they said those thing but were not better themselves. So yes i would like if it was changed (although its manily cosmetic)
How about adding a fifth compassion civic that is neutral (compassionwise), maybe -10% gold? and also available form the beginning.

for balance giving an bonus to fend for yourself? maybe -5% maintaince or +1 XP (the surviving people are stronger).

One other things as we speak of relations. How about a modifier how strong someone will react to different alignment. For example i would think that the Mercurians are real zealots alignmentwise so they would give something like -12 (evil) or -8 (good) if you have the other alignment. But they would not look to intense at your religion as long as you do not be evil (good).
Others could more look at your religion ignoring you alignment alltogether and some would neither look at your alignment nor at your religion or compassion.

It did bother me all the time that they said those thing but were not better themselves. So yes i would like if it was changed (although its manily cosmetic)
How about adding a fifth compassion civic that is neutral (compassionwise), maybe -10% gold? and also available form the beginning.

for balance giving an bonus to fend for yourself? maybe -5% maintaince or +1 XP (the surviving people are stronger).

One other things as we speak of relations. How about a modifier how strong someone will react to different alignment. For example i would think that the Mercurians are real zealots alignmentwise so they would give something like -12 (evil) or -8 (good) if you have the other alignment. But they would not look to intense at your religion as long as you do not be evil (good).
Others could more look at your religion ignoring you alignment alltogether and some would neither look at your alignment nor at your religion or compassion.

We do have a set of values for different religion adjustments that are tuned per leader. For example, Varn is very religious and gives a -2 to civs with different religions -1 per 10 turns they have been that religion up to a max of -6, Cassiel will never give a negative mod for religion, and most of the other give a -1 and an additional -1 per 10 turns up to -2 or -3.

That added together with the current alignment settings is probably granular enough to not require the differing alignment adjustments.

Cassiel will never give a negative mod for religion

Could we make Cassiel give a negative modifier for having any state religion? Or just a positive modifier for having none? Or both?

Could we make Cassiel give a negative modifier for having any state religion? Or just a positive modifier for having none? Or both?

Cassiel gives a huge bonus if you have the Free Religion civic, which kinda accomplishes the "positive modifier for having none" goal. Anything else would need to be hardcoded.

I know this is the wrong thread again, but what is woodelf's avatar this time?

Also, i think they should only dislike you if you treat your ppl worse than they do.

I know this is the wrong thread again, but what is woodelf's avatar this time?

:lol:

Some kind of Wood Elven button that Duke van Frost made for the WH mod.

Too busy?

:lol:

Some kind of Wood Elven button that Duke van Frost made for the WH mod.

Too busy?

Yeah i've got baseball games like everyday. They're fun but no time for gaming. Luckily the last game is friday.

Yeah i've got baseball games like everyday. They're fun but no time for gaming. Luckily the last game is friday.

I think he meant his avatar. ;)

Yeah, I did, but it's good to hear that the youth of America is still playing sports!

Piggybacking on wilbowman's post in the Traits thread.

Is there any possible way to change the # of buildings (or cities) prereqs so that it depends on your map size?

I tend to play standard (ocassionally large), but never HUGE. Rarely do I have more than 7 cities so I never build Forbidden Palaces or get the goodies from having 8 of temple X to build something else.

Piggybacking on wilbowman's post in the Traits thread.

Is there any possible way to change the # of buildings (or cities) prereqs so that it depends on your map size?

I tend to play standard (ocassionally large), but never HUGE. Rarely do I have more than 7 cities so I never build Forbidden Palaces or get the goodies from having 8 of temple X to build something else.

Yeah, but I would have to write our own blocking mechanism. That is easy. The hard part is that it means that the requirements wont be in the pedia anymore. I know we could manually enter them in the pedia but then you are talking about changing the text and code whenever you change the number, its just a mess to manage.

It does need to be done for a few reasons. But we will probably want to get things a little more settled down before we start to do those sort of fine tuning if that makes sense.

Yeah, but I would have to write our own blocking mechanism. That is easy. The hard part is that it means that the requirements wont be in the pedia anymore. I know we could manually enter them in the pedia but then you are talking about changing the text and code whenever you change the number, its just a mess to manage.

It does need to be done for a few reasons. But we will probably want to get things a little more settled down before we start to do those sort of fine tuning if that makes sense.

What about writing the pedia as is, but adding in () the part about lower numbers needed on smaller maps? Also, when you hover over a building, say a Forbidden Palace, would it show that you need a different number of cities if you did the easy part (the blocking mechanism)? If the answer is yes then the pedia could say that they are variations and hovering will reveal the correct number.

I think doing it will not be to difficult later on. We simple store a map dependend variable instead of the actuall one. We need to add one through where the XML-Value is written to. I'll probably take me less than 7 Minutes writing it (and 30 Minutes posting the code in the thread ;) ) I'll write something as soon as the dragons are complete (with effects and sounds).

Awesome. Now we smaller map guys can get the same toys as everyone else. :p

Sorry to change the subject here, I'm not sure where to post these thoughts...hope this thread is ok.

I'm captivated by the Hippus, particularly Tasunke's aggressive, raider trait combo. However, I will say, I'm thinking for balance purposes maybe their palace should provide a Body node (haste spell seems to fit the civ) instead of horses. Perhaps Air node when that branch is added in would be the ideal fit? Their Raider unit is immensenly powerful for the speed with which they can currently get it. Perhaps due to it's 4 strength and speed movement? Perhaps due to the fact that scouts can upgrade into them.

The Hippus start with Animal Husbandry and The Wheel, so Raiders are only one tech and one building "Stables" (at half price no less, for their aggressive trait) away from their Raiders. While researching Horse Riding, pump out scouts, get them Woodsmen I, Guerilla I. For 80% defensive strength 4 horsemen on a forested hill making them str 7...in an age when they'll only be facing warriors and scouts, Subdue (optional only need 1 Raider with this to stay near civ capturing all sorts of animals even bears with ease. With the first horseman, go find civs to pillage and raze to keep science at 100% and upgrade whatever scouts survived the exploration phase, if you can get tracking next hold off on upgrading a few scouts until they also get the sentry 2 promo so during the barb phase you've got great sentries that can strike and retreat quickly, whittling down a barb invasion force to something more defensible before they arrive.

At least if they start with a node instead of horses, they also have to build a worker and hook them up, (which can probably be done before Horse Riding has even completed researching). So instead of pumping out scouts you pop out one worker and settle next to horses, still quick to capitalize on you're ultra fast raiders as you've already got the techs to hook them up but you trade some growth and some potentially experienced scouts for upgrades and perhaps have only popped enough huts for 1 upgrade, so most of your raiders will have to be built from scratch taking some hammers and time to build. It may take a few initial turns finding the right spot with horses but if you want your conquest victory only the Octupus Overlords can slow you down if they're founded via philosophy.

Long story short, Tasunke may be a little over powered. I'm not sure if it's:
1. Raider unit. 4 Strength 4 Move. Available with 1 tech and a half priced building.
2. 3 x the cash from pillaging/razing (Raider Trait)
3. Starts with horses in his capital making the above two completely nutz the speed with which he can start capitalizing on 1 & 2.

I feel that they'll simply be balanced out somewhere. Also, what difficulty were you playing out?

I was playing a marathon Prince level, on a huge, highlands with raging barbs and aggressive AI. The barbs were simply intense, I think they wiped out 5 out of 13 civs before turn 200. The pressure of barbs was soo much that they were the only ones building wonders. Orthus finished off the Ljoslfar at around turn 104, at least I have to assume he did, when I later found Orthus sitting in Hyll. I had no nearby neighbors to increase my lands and my nearest neighbor was probably 60-70 tiles away or more, no problem with Raiders, maybe it was due to the map settings...but I think on a smaller map with faster game play settings they'd be even more deadly. I'll admit if unchanged I'll be perfectly happy, they're a blast to play with. Tasunke matches my play style almost perfectly.

How about an evil building that defiles all the land around a city if it is taken (a big cross of fallout) making the city useless to the attacker and maybe also giving the living units in the affected area disease?

How about an evil building that defiles all the land around a city if it is taken (a big cross of fallout) making the city useless to the attacker and maybe also giving the living units in the affected area disease?

Seems maybe too much. What about a hero that had this happen when he died.

Seems maybe too much. What about a hero that had this happen when he died.

Checking it in as an effect if Hyborem is killed. Great job Loki and Brightlance.

GUILDS:
Each guild hall build provides a bonus for each hall of the same guild across the realm or the world. The cost to build each guild hall increases proportionally to the number of halls of this guild in the world, because of logistics problems. The guild HQ is a world wonder counts as a guid hall and substitutes the guil hall, it has the same power of the hall, but where is writed realm read world, plus the special abilities below.

Iluminnati Guild:

Iluminati Guild hall (replaces the money changer)
Each guild hall reduces the amount of gold needed to buy production, mercenaries or pay for spy actions.
+ 30% to gold produced in the city.
Can build Spy.
+ 1 XP to spy produced for each Guild Hall in your realm.

Iluminati Guild HQ
When a city with Bankspy guilhall rebels it can join your empire.
Every time a player buy production, mercenaries or use a spy you gain gold.


Steampunk Guild:

Steampunk guild hall: (replaces siege workshop)
Produces Siege machines and gunpowder units
Rise the military production for each guild hall in your realm.
Generates a unhappy citzen for each temple in the city.
Cannot be build in a holy city.
Mage and disciples cannot be build in the city.

Steampunk HQ:
Workshops in the Grand Cross procuces two more production.
Choping produces more production, but forests and jungles don't grow naturally.
Cannot adopt Nature Guardian.

GUILDS:
Each guild hall build provides a bonus for each hall of the same guild across the realm or the world. The cost to build each guild hall increases proportionally to the number of halls of this guild in the world, because of logistics problems. The guild HQ is a world wonder counts as a guid hall and substitutes the guil hall, it has the same power of the hall, but where is writed realm read world, plus the special abilities below.

Iluminnati Guild:

Iluminati Guild hall (replaces the money changer)
Each guild hall reduces the amount of gold needed to buy production, mercenaries or pay for spy actions.
+ 30% to gold produced in the city.
Can build Spy.
+ 1 XP to spy produced for each Guild Hall in your realm.

Iluminati Guild HQ
When a city with Bankspy guilhall rebels it can join your empire.
Every time a player buy production, mercenaries or use a spy you gain gold.


Steampunk Guild:

Steampunk guild hall: (replaces siege workshop)
Produces Siege machines and gunpowder units
Rise the military production for each guild hall in your realm.
Generates a unhappy citzen for each temple in the city.
Cannot be build in a holy city.
Mage and disciples cannot be build in the city.

Steampunk HQ:
Workshops in the Grand Cross procuces two more production.
Choping produces more production, but forests and jungles don't grow naturally.
Cannot adopt Nature Guardian.


I like the idea of having Guild Halls that increase in power proportional to the amount of guild halls in your empire.

I think this would be a good way to improve the almost completely useless civic "guilds". You would only be able to build guildhalls with that civic on, and switching away from it would erase the halls, just like switching away from a religion will erase its heroes. Only 1 kind of guild should be buildable in each city, forcing you to make the choice between building a lot of one kind for a grand effect, or building fewer but placing them in a more tactical way, so that the smaller bonuses would amount for more in those particular cities(Focus science in the city with the Crown of Acarien, and gold in the city with Bazaar of Mammon, for example).

Of the particular guildhalls you are suggesting: I think the Illuminati Guild would be better if it was split up into the Thieves Guild and a Merchant's Guild. I'm not sure a Steampunk guild is in tune with the lore of Fall from Heaven.

Here is my suggestions for possible guildhalls:

Thieves Guild: As it is now, perhaps a bit more powerful. It might be too restrictive for the player if he was forced to use the Guilds civic to build Shadows, so perhaps allow Shadows without the guild, but make it give production boost or xp boost to them. Perhaps also allow a simple "Thief" unit that can be deployed in enemy cities to drain small amounts of gold. More thieves guilds might allow your civilization to have more Shadows(they are national units now, right?), or simple give them a larger xp-boost or let them start with the Commando promotion, something like that.


Merchant's Guild: +1 trade route in the city for each Merchant's Guild existing in your empire. Perhaps also a +5% to cash for each guildhall. Allows 3 merchant specialists.

Mage Guild: +1 xp to newly trained arcane units for each mage guildhall in existence. Perhaps also a +5% to science for each guildhall. Allows 3 sage specialists.

Fighters Guild: +1xp to newly trained military per guildhall. +5% military production for each guildhall in existence. +4 Great Commander points.

Artists' Guild: +1 happy face for each Artist guild in existence. +10% culture for each guildhall. Allows 3 bard specialists.

Craftsmens' Guild:+1 unhealthiness for each guildhall in existence. +5% hammers for each guildhall in existence. Allows 3 engineer specialists.

The guilds are somewhat similar in function to the Orbital Facilities of Alpha Centauri, being quite weak alone but stronger the more that are built. I think the cumulative effect of guilds should be capped, though, perhaps at 5 guildhalls.

It would make for interesting decisions when a player builds guildhalls, as he will have to choose between building a few kinds of guilds to great effect, or specializing individual cities more at the cost of smaller effect.

Hmm maybe make the effect of Guilds dependend on the % of cities that have such a guild. (Maybe even Population weighted). Otherwise the effect of guilds is the better the greater your empire is. That might be wanted but i think it is unbalanced. Eg. 20 cities with Merchantsguilds, each of those cities +2 trade routes... hmm bit unbalanced)

So for example Artists Guilds give +4 Happiness * <Populations of Cities with Guild in %>. So having Artist guilds in roughly 50% of your cities would give 2 happiness in every city ( i would make the effects than empirewide).

Wouldn't it be much simpler to just cap the effect at 5 guildhalls, as I suggested? I agree that 20 cumulative effects would be way overpowered.
And if all cities get the same bnous regardless of guild type, there's not much point in specializing.

Oh sorry i overread that part. Might be simpler. I'm not sure if it would be nicer through. If we give the guilds an percentage effect it would be kind of an rubebrband effects, that allows small (few cities) civs to get an distinct advvantage by using guilds. A bigger empire would have to specialize nationwide to get the full effect of one kind of guilds. (if it is capped at 5 and you have 15 cities you can use two guilds with full effect and decide which one would be better for each city. Small empires on the other hand would not be able to use even one guild to full extend. So it would make big empires even stronger )

Hmm, you may be right. Very large empires would benefit much more from guilds with my system.
My empires are usually not that large, so I'm going to vote for the effect by population idea, if it's possible to do it that way:)

What if you did it like Cathedrals? And specialized Temples, require 5-7 of a different building to build one of the guild halls. Money Changers for Merchants Guild. Theatres for Artists guild, etc. Then you don't necessarily need to restrict having multiple guild hall types. Hammers alone already is a limiting factor to building everything and doign it this way if you want a specific guild halls benefits you'd need to specialize that route.

As an example building The Main Thieves Guild Hall, would be a significant drain on your overall commerce in the cities where you build the Thieves Guilds but could take all the lost commerce in those cities and reallocate it in the city with the main Thieves guild.

The guild halls could have scalable costs, the second guild hall costing more than the first, and the third than the second, etc. I don't know if this is possible, but if it is it could help to balance the guilds. If the realm wants to spend all these hammers building 20 guild halls, it deseves the power ...

Sorry if this has been answered already. I did a quick search and didn't find anything pertinent.

In my .11b game I cannot cage my orc and other race slaves in my Balseraph carnivals and i did not see it listed in the .11c fix list. Am i doing something wrong or is this a bug? I would have reported it in the .11b bug list but not sure if people would still check that now that .11c is out and i don't know if it isn't working in .11c.

- J

+%Library- Needs renamed
Have you considered renaming Library to Thingi? It is the Icelandic/gamla norsk word for an annual calling of regional tribal leaders to hash out policy, etc.

This would naturaly lead to calling the Great library The Althingi, which is as above, only nation/world wide in scale (technically the Icelandic Althingi is oldest represenative government in the world). It would be apropos with the elder council, and your other gamla norsk/icelandic inspired names (Ljosalphar, etc). Which I really enjoy, by the way.

Cheers!

Have you considered renaming Library to Thingi? It is the Icelandic/gamla norsk word for an annual calling of regional tribal leaders to hash out policy, etc.

How does that name fit with the library's function of storing and studying lore both mundane and arcane? It does not have any gubernatorial function, as far as I know. If something should be renamed to Thingi, it should be the Courthouse.

How does that name fit with the library's function of storing and studying lore both mundane and arcane? It does not have any gubernatorial function, as far as I know. If something should be renamed to Thingi, it should be the Courthouse.

Yeah, the arcane thing doesn't really fit. but if an elder council increases reseaerch the Thingi is just taking it to a next level. Anytime you have a convocation like that there is bound to be an exchange of ideas. Even until early in the last century the Althingi was mainly just a social gathering for most people, with a bit of governing thrown in for good measure.

Here is an idea I would REALY like to see implemented.
The Sheaim need a building that destroys the city it was buit in, it might not seem to be very beneficial at first glance but for the Sheaim it is a perfect fit.
You see most of my war campaigns as Sheaim involve 3 Dream Eater and some other weaker units, after i capture the first city I imidiatly use my Deream Eaters to start summoning a hoard of wraits or fire elemntals using the captured citys population, thus allowing me to get stronger whit every captured city (the Sheaim still have the summoning promotion you know), the problem whit this stratagy is obvious, im stuck whit a lot of 1 pop cities that do nothing exept drain my coffers of gold. So a such a building would be very welcomed. It would even make sense from a role-playing perspective since the Sheaim are naturaly evil...

Inquisition Hall says it gives +4 XP to inquisitors created in the city, but now we don't create inquisitors.

edit:
I guess I shouldn't assume things. I'll check next time I'm order.

Inquisition Hall says it gives +4 XP to inquisitors created in the city, but now we don't create inquisitors.

Have you tried this? It should give +4XP to inquisitors upgraded in the city, but it might not work.

Here is an idea I would REALY like to see implemented.
The Sheaim need a building that destroys the city it was buit in, it might not seem to be very beneficial at first glance but for the Sheaim it is a perfect fit.
You see most of my war campaigns as Sheaim involve 3 Dream Eater and some other weaker units, after i capture the first city I imidiatly use my Deream Eaters to start summoning a hoard of wraits or fire elemntals using the captured citys population, thus allowing me to get stronger whit every captured city (the Sheaim still have the summoning promotion you know), the problem whit this stratagy is obvious, im stuck whit a lot of 1 pop cities that do nothing exept drain my coffers of gold. So a such a building would be very welcomed. It would even make sense from a role-playing perspective since the Sheaim are naturaly evil...

Its a nice idea but i think that it is too abusable.

Have you tried this? It should give +4XP to inquisitors upgraded in the city, but it might not work.

It doesnt. Maybe I'll have it grant an autopromotion to any inq that passes through the city instead?

Could you make it so priests can upgrade one level lower ina city with inq. hall?

Could you make it so priests can upgrade one level lower ina city with inq. hall?

Yeah, but thats not really much of an effect, going to cause more confusion than anything else.

I thought about making inq's buildable with the hall. But that would require an sdk change. I think the bonus promotion is the easiest way.

I don't know if this is already planned but will you add a building that gives hammers on worked sea tiles? This is one thing I really miss because I can't stand cities which take an eternity to build a simple building.
If it is overpowered you can make it a wonder effecting only the building city perhaps? Or just limit it? Or a civ specific building for the Lanun?

Ya, I miss the building from Civ3(?) that gave +1 production on sea squares. A building that gives +1 production to Coastal ocean squares (not Fresh water lakes though) would be nice (sand and rocks should provide a little production value lol), though maybe make it require a lighthouse and a harbour to build (so only those really invested in sea tiles build it).

Another option would be to give the Lanun some ability to get a civic that lets them rush production with gold, since both Lanun leaders are financial (added with sea tiles they'll have a decent amount of gold if they want), or make the Financial trait allow a player to convert a % of their commerce into production (don't know if thats possible, but would allow them to forgo science/wealth to help them produce).

I don't know if this is already planned but will you add a building that gives hammers on worked sea tiles? This is one thing I really miss because I can't stand cities which take an eternity to build a simple building.
If it is overpowered you can make it a wonder effecting only the building city perhaps? Or just limit it? Or a civ specific building for the Lanun?

Would anyone answer this post?:confused:

No such a thing is not planned. I would advice to use Octopus overlords/Veil and poprushing. Which works really good with the lanun ;)

Would anyone answer this post?:confused:

There aren't any plans to add a building like that. It could be quite powerful. Instead of simply adding hammers the lighthouse does this effect indirectly by adding food, which increases population, which provides more citizens (or specialists) which increases production. If that makes sense.

Not sure if this is where to post this, but in 0.12 the archery range says it is needed to build elven archers, but I I can build elven archers without building an archery range.

Not sure if this is where to post this, but in 0.12 the archery range says it is needed to build elven archers, but I I can build elven archers without building an archery range.

Yeah, thats some confusion about the 2 different units both called elven archers. In 0.13 they have 2 different names so it will be more clear.

cities built on a lone island (archipelago!) with only water in the rest of their fat cross never increase in production, or cities with a few land tiles make little production. a new building like the offshore platform, or something that even adds base production(+1 hammers with a copper rescource?) would help alleviate this problem this problem.

cities built on a lone island (archipelago!) with only water in the rest of their fat cross never increase in production, or cities with a few land tiles make little production. a new building like the offshore platform, or something that even adds base production(+1 hammers with a copper rescource?) would help alleviate this problem this problem.

I don't know if it's a problem. You knew what you were getting when you built the city there. Not every location needs to be equally good.

Besides, even if doesn't produce much, such a city probably gets an adequate amount of food and commerce. Whip-rush a granary, lighthouse and a library, maybe a couple of other buildings too, and you should be fine. Even if it might take a small while.

Though... that gave me an idea, what about adding a minor building that would give your city something like +1 or +2 hammers? It'd fit the Elder Council/Market/Obelisk line with giving a minor bonus that isn't too unbalancing but could still be very useful in some situations in the early game, and would help such "ocean-locked" cities, too.

2 quick buildings
1 for Clan of Embers - Breeding Pit - 25% faster build for orc and goblin units

1 for lanun - Spawning Ground - allows Lanun to have lizardmen as unique units for their civ

I feel rarely motivated to build the temple upgrades because they often don't habe a great positive effect and I don't want to trade this the negative effect they give. As they can only be build in a few cities they should have a bit greater effects.
Just some comments about the different temples:


The Order:

+Inquisitional Hall (concept: strict)
Removes all religions but the Order from the city
Keeps religions from spreading to the city (not in yet)
Inquisitioners given +4 xp
Paladins created in this city gain the Command promotion
+10% Maintenance

If I'm not going for a religious victory I wouldn't build this because I like many religions and the free command promotion isn't that great.

+Enforcement Office (concept: managed)
-50% war weariness
-50% maintenance
-1 maintenance per happy (not in yet)
-1 maintenance per military unti in city (not in yet)
Doubled effect of great commanders recruit ability

This is certainly nice.

The Ashen Veil:

+Demon's altar (concept: demon worship, dark magic)
All units can be sacrificed for research, the higher the level of the unit, the more research is given
Units created here start with a +40% vs disciples promotion
-2 Happy

I never tried the sacrifice for research thingy but I don't think that I would be too tempted to use it. Why should I waste my hard earned high level units?
It would be nice if you would charge an invisible demon-meter with your sacrifices and if this reaches some threshold you get a powerful demon unit.

Forbidden Library (concept: intellegent)
-20% culture, +10% science
Trade routes yeild science instead of gold.
10% chance of providing a Mind mana resource

I alway thought trade routes would yield commerce. If that is the case the temple is quite pointless.


The Fellowship of Leaves:

+The Golden Wood (concept: open, elegant)
+25% culture
+1 trade routes
+1 great artist
-25% city defense

This is nice. As you can't build too much of these temples I would even propose +40% culture.


+The Shadowed Vale (concept: closed, mystical)
Triple the chance of generating Treants
+1 great sage
-1 trade routes
-25% culture

I really don't like this one. Less culture and trade for an increase of a chance.


Runes of Kilmorph:

+Hall of Granite (concept: insular, defensive)
+50% defense
-20% Culture
+10% Production
Non Kilmorph religions give -1 happiness each (not in yet)
-1 Trade route
City is more likely to culture flip away from non-Runes civs (not in yet)
Stone gives +3 hammers

+50% defense seems nice but in the end it's not something I really crave for and it doesn't help against pillaging... The +10% production bonus is again a bit small. Why not make it 25% or even 40%. As I said, you can't build to much of these anyway.


+RuneVault (concept: wise, traditional)
Gems give +1 Happy
-10% production
+2 Prophet GP points
+4 Research per Gems
Allows the Rune Guard unit (rooted, 1 per city, defensive)

If you have a lot of gems this can be nice in a science city. But if you dont... Perhaps it could grant a few xp to units?


Octopus Overlords:

+Overseer's Residence (concept: punishing, controlling)
Doubles effects of slaves sacrificed for production (not in)
+1 Research per Orc, Elf, Human or Dwarf pen.
Population sacrificed for production gives double effects (not in)
-10% gold, culture
-1 Happy

If the sacrifice population effect gets added this will be quite strong. But at the moment the +1 Research thing ist quite weak.


+Theater of Dreams (concept: insane)
25% of the units produced in this city are Crazed
Combat 1 promotion for Lunatics
+1 Culture per animal pen
City is more likely to culture flip away from non-OO civs (not in)

If I did not get to many animals I just have a bonus promotion for one singel unit type and a chance for a promotion that isn't alway beneficial. Perhaps it could have a 10% chance per turn to create an lunatic.

@c.fe: From the Changelog for 0.14:
19. Removed the Runegaurd unit.
20. Removed the Golden Wood building.
21. Removed the Shadowed Vale building.
22. Removed the Enforcement Office building.
23. Removed the Inquisitional Halls building.
24. Removed the Theater of Dreams building.
25. Removed the Overseers Residence building.
20. Removed the Halls of Granite building.
21. Removed the Runevault building.

Will there be a replacement for these?

Th interesting Effects will get mostly moved to other objects (buildings/civics)

Aww. It was a nice flavor mechanic. :(

Aww. It was a nice flavor mechanic. :(

It was a good concept, but it was a medicore play value. The more we cut the parts of the mod that we don't love, the more the parts that we do love will shine through.

Some parts are being readjusted to make them work better for players and the AI. Some are being cut entirely. I have no desire to have FfH be as "big" as possible. Its much more important that each aspect serve a valuable purpose.

Honestly its not such a big deal for all the folks that read these forums. If you these posts you probably know the mod inside and out and can deal with all of the various units/buildings/etc. And you probably avoid the objects that aren't worth it without really thinking about it. But new players wont know to do that. A lot of times its called "noob traps", game aspects that are avoided by experienced players and serve to differentiate between experienced and inexperienced players. Sometimes they are intentional (those familiar with magic the gathering may be aware that the "lucky charms" are intentional noob traps), but I try to avoid them whenever possible.

The other way of dealing with noob traps is to boost the offending object, make it so its just as viable as other options. We do this too, but you always have to ask if its really worth it go through the work or if the part is really needed. So we removed the shadowed vale, but now the triple chance of summoning treants is on the temple of leaves. Which seems perfect and makes the temple of leaves a better option. The enforcement offices double units fromt he recruit ability is no on the temple of the order. The fewer components we have, the more detailed we can be with them. There is a magic number with the amount of options that are available, you want a few differentiated options. When you have to many they all blur together.

But we may see a return of advanced temples. If we do I suspect it will be for a specific religion, not for all religions. It is a great concept and we may design a religion fromt he ground up based on being able to go 2 different ways.

the halls of granite were a huge factor in my capitol,
god king to the end of the game
+50% for capitol
+50% total from halls of granite with stone
+55% from dwarven smithy with 3 metals
+20% from machinists shop
+25% for buildings,
+10% for military units

+200% for buildings
+250% for wonders(with industrious trait)
+185% for units,
with a base production of around 32-35
0 0
built nearly every midgame wonder in under 10 turns...
i suppose the halls of granite wasn't "that" much of it, but it bought me at least one extra wonder worth of production...

Just checking: are human/dwarf/elf/orc cages Balseraph only?

Just checking: are human/dwarf/elf/orc cages Balseraph only?

Yes. The Balseraphs have a special passion for more...extravagant entertainment.

Dwarves...as we all know. Like to live in mountains. They prefer mountains.
Unlike the Elves however, Mountains do not grow (unless there is a change to how the game works, and random mountain ranges can potentially appear). So for dwarves to be isolated to mountain/hill homes alone, is rare. Many dwarven cities are out in the desert, in the forest, or out at sea. Dwarves (as i know them) are not fans of boats.

How then to create an insentive for players, playing dwarves, to grab up all the mountainous (at the cost of delicious looking plains/forest/coastal) real estate?

Dwarves are Ingenuative. They build things. I suggest a series of buildings, soley for dwarven races. All of these would require the city being bulit near/on hills. Their Boarders will be smaller, but thier holds will be harder.

1. The first is for expansion. A building that would provide FOOD directly.
The Mushroom farm (something dank, but tasty) +4 Food -2 Culture.

2. The Second is for growth. A building that provides Food and Healthy.
Dwarven Brewery (Replaces Brewery) +4 Food +2 Healthy For Corn, Wheat, etc.

3. The Third is for Large Cities. A building deep in the earth.
Dwarven Sub-Keep +4 Food -2 Culture {Edit: Or -20% Culture to handle all those wonders being produced} +50% Defense.

Also A coulple other Dwarven Ideas for Buildings:

A) Dwarven (Orcish too?) Tunnel - Allows "airdrop" within 3-5 Squares. They come out of hidden tunnels connecting to the city. But to keep it secret, must return through the front gates.

B) Oafbreadhaus - Gives one "Oafbread" Luxury Resource. - A normal building, so in theory, a player could build many of them to use as trade with other nations. (Considering their small boarders, and lack of access to many goods).

C) Hill/Mountain Tower - Units in City are granted the same bonus sight radious as the watch towers found in abundance on the map.

D) Dwarven Alchemist - A VERY expensive National Wonder that would provide one Iron Strategic resource. (For the unfortunate player who finds themselves without iron and playing the dwarves.)

D) Dwarven Alchemist - A VERY expensive National Wonder that would provide one Iron Strategic resource. (For the unfortunate player who finds themselves without iron and playing the dwarves.)

The Mines of Gal Dur cover that aspect.

The Mines of Gal Dur cover that aspect.

Never built em.......my poor dwarves never survived long enough :(. Good to know.

Mushroom Farm, Dwarven Brewery and Dwarven Sub-Keep way too much overpowered, they provide +12 food, whit that you can hold 7 citizens (counting city tile) whidout getting any food from tiles.

You would only need to settle in a land full of Plains Hills and make a production combo (all civicis that have +production and all buildings) and you would be able to build nearly anything in the game in 1 turn. Even the later wonders/units/even rituals would be fast as hell.

Mushroom Farm, Dwarven Brewery and Dwarven Sub-Keep way too much overpowered, they provide +12 food, whit that you can hold 7 citizens (counting city tile) whidout getting any food from tiles.

You would only need to settle in a land full of Plains Hills and make a production combo (all civicis that have +production and all buildings) and you would be able to build nearly anything in the game in 1 turn. Even the later wonders/units/even rituals would be fast as hell.

Then adjust them, i was just throwing out numbers. Give them a larger negative Culture......with tiny cultures, you have to be careful about when you build those buildings, lest your city waste away (there was a mention that they could do that in some other thread).

Also, if they're on the boarder with someone, they're going to be pushing back a LOT less hard because of it. Give each building a -2 or -5% culture, that way it adds up. Little dwarven city states dotted around. Plus it would force them to keep to the hills, as these buildings would not be available unless near them.

The Low culture also counters the efficient wonder production (wonders = culture)

-Qes

Well, I dont think its hard to have a great culture. In my games, I usually have +20 culture/turn on my cities, whidout Cultural trait or any % in the Culture Slider. Maybe give then something like -30% and -1 culture, so their culture is heavily diminished and can still have their cities destroyed, as they have -1.

Well, I dont think its hard to have a great culture. In my games, I usually have +20 culture/turn on my cities, whidout Cultural trait or any % in the Culture Slider. Maybe give then something like -30% and -1 culture, so their culture is heavily diminished and can still have their cities destroyed, as they have -1.

Exactly, its easy to have culture. I'm saying that for the dwarves it could be more difficult, in exchange for getting those nice little buildings that provide food. The idea here is that dwarven cities may only get one or two rings of tiles around their squares, much less "pushing out" into open territory and engulfing other nations.

Keeping the culture painfully small would increase the need for more dwarven cities, and if your the Khazad, theres a price to pay with that, if your the other dwarves, then not so much. But then if your the other dwarves, you need tiles more. ITs a give/take thing.

The minus to culture to be large enough to prevent, or at least heavily stifle growth, maybe a -25% culture per building. Thats -75% if you have a Keep. The benefits are that your getting 12 food and some other bonuses...Your going to have (more than likely) a lot of specialists (good for dwarves) and a lot of production, with sizable cities....but not a lot of land territory. This can/will keep dwarves to the hills and mountains.

Cool no?
-Qes

Ya, but I still think that the bonus should be only +3 or even +2 food. You see, the Calabim, who are specialized in having huge cityes for their vampires to feast on, only have a building that gives +2 food...

Ya, but I still think that the bonus should be only +3 or even +2 food. You see, the Calabim, who are specialized in having huge cityes for their vampires to feast on, only have a building that gives +2 food...

Maybe Mushroom farm 4 food
Brewery 2 food 2 gold
Keep 2 Food 2 Hammers (only talking incomes here)

Thats worse than 3 food each, but makes up for it elsewhere.

Ya, that seems pretty reasonable if they have some weakness of course...

Ya, that seems pretty reasonable if they have some weakness of course...

This was on another thread but id thought id mention it since were discussing it here.

What about the "Compact Trait" Virtually the opposite of the sprawling trait, instead of 3 rings around the city, your only granted 1. Thats 8 squares in addition to your city square. The trait would give 1 free specialist per 3 population rounding up. Therefore a full city (all 8 squares) would have a population of 11 (not including civics). IF "free specialists" cost food to support because of population size, then the Compact Trait could also have a +1 Food per specialist (thusly halving the cost of their existance).

Then if you look at these buildings without the culture negatives, they dont seem broken considering that each city is being deprived of 12 squares.
Maybe even put them back at 4 food each?
-Qes

Yea, whit only 1 ring 4 food is reasonable. But, I dont know if Free Specialists cost food... But free specialists are not counted towards city population. So if your city is population 8 and it has 3 free specialists, its still 8 pop. Thats better anyway, because its less food for the next pop lvl.

Aye, 2 good ideas that work well togheter (how do you freaking write this word ??). Hope the Team sees it o_0.

Yea, whit only 1 ring 4 food is reasonable. But, I dont know if Free Specialists cost food... But free specialists are not counted towards city population. So if your city is population 8 and it has 3 free specialists, its still 8 pop. Thats better anyway, because its less food for the next pop lvl.

Aye, 2 good ideas that work well togheter (how do you freaking write this word ??). Hope the Team sees it o_0.

Ya, it seems like a reasonable mix of ideas. Less space, more innward production. More cities to compensate - then more upkeep and if Khazad then a "vault" problem. I like it, very different play style. Thing is, what about the culture...would it be tiny? Like little city states? Or normal, but production is limited to the first ring of squares? Visually it'd look cooler if the cities were seperate. But i suspect players might try to use up every inch of land anyway, and when it comes to resources, playres want territory so they can harvest (even if not useable by the city itself)

Still, i like it..hopefully someone with say will see it.
-Qes

Keeping with the Idea of that the Belseraphs are "INSANE" (awesome).
I was wondering if they would/could be provided with either one or both of the following ideas.

They could build a building, (or have access to a UNIT that could build the building - in a sacrificial sort of way.) that could draw the attention of freaks, monsters, and barbarians.

I see this unit, maybe the "Strange connoisseur" that could go into enemy cities and plant a building called the "Monster Magnet" This building would randomly incourage the spawning of monsters within the cities radious (these monsters could be the ones that will likely be included for a later phase of the project, but for now it might just spawn animals, orcs, and other 'normal' barbarians.) In this the belseraph could use it on themselves (their not sane anyway) to boost the xp of their own units (they'd know what was coming) or they could disrupt the flow of the enemy by forcing them to deal with EVEN MORE barbarians.

I was just thinking that Perpentach might like monster magnet(s)....
-Qes

P.S. yes....yes it was on purpose, but i still like the idea.

Aye, 2 good ideas that work well togheter (how do you freaking write this word ??). Hope the Team sees it o_0.
think of it as three small words: to-get-her

to gather to get her together
we rather reset her forever

lol
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/\

sorry, breaking down words makes me strange :D

to gather to get her together
we rather reset her forever

lol
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/\

sorry, breaking down words makes me strange :D

I disagree, i think it is you being strange that makes you brake down words.
:P.
-Qes

shhh... it has to be nikis fault

shhh... it has to be nikis fault

Oh Right, right. Well, Darn you Nikis!

Yes.... how dare you, cavort..and such.

Hoolganism.....n....goings on...

ZZZZzzzzzz....
-Qes

I look away for a few hours, and my nefarious influence has caused cavorting hooliganism?? I shall rectify the situation with an on-topic post about my idea du juor... This may be too complicated for little gain, but I'll throw it out anyway.

Battles are much more interesting than fighting, of course. On some games with friendly rulers, many turns could go by in the middle of the game, after settling before anything "interesting" happens. Part of this is the animation, and trying out the great units. But I wondered if there was some way to impart a bit of suspense to building? Without of course diminishing the strategic choices.
What if buildings could occasionally be built better than normal? It might give more suspense than 'what will I build next?' I thought about having a 'great' and a 'masterful' version of ordinary buildings, say, 10% of the time your oblisk will be great and cost no gold, 5% it will give +4 culture rather than +3. But I realized that this would probably entail having 3x as many buildings in, or complicated coding changes, both of which would slow down playing/loading.
Instead, a small percentage of the time, say 10%, I building would be built with an "addition" which in reality would be a separate building in the city, but one unable to be otherwise constructed. Only one "addition" would be possible with each building built, and of course none with units. A message would pop up reading "Our citizens completed the Obelisk ahead of schedule! A _______ was added!" With the blank being one of a few buildings with small bonuses:
A fountian; +1 health
A statue; +1 culture
A guard station; +5% defense
A garden; +1 happy
A market stall; +1 commerce
A ? (arena?); +1 XP
Not too many, as most cities would only get two or three in the game (about one for every 10 buildings built.) These wouldn't even need art, really. Should it be possible to get two of the same? Is it possible to get two of any building in one city? Also, having engineer specialist or Super specialists would increase the chance of an addition.

The above list would only be for non-wonder buildings. Wonders could be as follows: 5% chance for the following when a wonder is built, but each wonder could have more than one at once. Suggested wonder additions:
Scenic Overlook: +1 Great Artist point
Altar: +1 Great prophet
Etc. (Can't think of names for others at the moment.)

Negative surprises occuring would also add to suspense, but you need to not do these or be careful to avoid screwing up someone's valid strategy. (No one should see: "Your training yard was canceled!") Maybe a one turn delay, no more than once per building, 5% of the time. Maybe poor contstruction leading to unhappy or unhealth for 5 turns. If so, have sage specialists decrease the chance.