+Accuracy- +20% city bombard damage
+Amphibious- No combat penalty if attacking from sea or across a river.
+Barrage I- +40% collateral damage
+Barrage II- +60% collateral damage, +20% vs melee units
+Barrage III- +100% collateral damage
+Blessed- +15% combat, +15 vs demons, Removed after combat
+Blitz- Can attack multiple times per turn
Charmed- Unit can't attack
+City Garrison I- +40% to city defense
+City Garrison II- +50% to city defense
+City Garrison III- +60% to city defense, +20% vs melee units
+City Raider I- +40% city attack
+City Raider II- +50% city attack
+City Raider III- +60% city attack, +20% vs melee units
+Combat I- +20% strength
+Combat II- +20% strength
+Combat III- +20% strength
+Combat IV- +20% strength, heals an additional 10% /turn in neutral lands
+Combat V- +20% strength, heals an additional 10% /turn in enemy lands
+Command- 50% chance to take control of units defeated in combat
+Commando- Can use enemy roads
+Cover I- +40% vs archery units
+Cover II- +80% vs archery units
+Crazed- 50% chance of being enraged each turn
+Defensive- +40% Defense, -40% Attack
+Demon Slaying- +40% vs Demons
+Diseased- -30% Strength, -10% Heal, -10% Heal to units in the same tile, Combat has a 50% chance to spread Disease to each unit in the attacking and defending stack.
+Drill I- 1 additional first strike chance
+Drill II- 1 extra first strike
+Drill III- +2 first strike chances
+Drill IV- 2 first strikes, +20% vs mounted units
+Dwarf Slaying- +40% vs Dwarves
+Elf Slaying- +40% vs Elves
+Enchanted Blade- +10% strength.
+Enraged- +40% Attack, -40% Defense
Fear- Can't be attacked by living units with less than its strength.
+Fire Arrows- +10% strength.
+Fire Resistance- +80% vs Fire
+Flanking I- +20% withdrawal
+Flanking II- +20% withdrawal
+Flanking III- +10% withdrawal, immune to first strikes
+Formation I- +40% vs mounted units
+Formation II- +80% vs mounted units
+Giant Slaying- +40% vs Giants
+Guardsman- Reduces maintenance costs when in a city.
+Guerilla I- +40% hills defense
+Guerilla II- Double movement in hills, +60% hills defense
+Heavy- (Zuul) -1 movement cost, +30% strength
+Immortal- When the unit dies it is reborn in the civilizations capital. A unit can only be reborn once per turn.
+Light- (Zuul) +1 movement, -20% strength, +10% withdrawal chance
+Loyalty- (Corlindale) Unit will die instead of being converted by an opponent.
+Magic Resistance- +40% vs Adepts and Fire, Half chance to be Entangled, Half damage from Fire Aura
+March- Can heal while moving
+Marksman- Unit attacks the weakest unit in the stack instead of the strongest.
+Medic I- Heals units in the same tile +20% damage per turn
+Medic II- Heals units in the same tile +40% damage per turn
+Medic III- Heals units in the same tile +80% damage per turn
+Mobility I- +1 movement range
+Mobility II- +1 movement range
+Mobility III- +1 movement range
+Navigation I- +1 movement range
+Navigation II- +1 movement range
+Orthus’s Axe- +25% Combat, Allows Blitzing, Passed to units that defeat this unit
+Plague Carrier- Spreads the Plague, -20% Heal to units in the same tile
+Plagued- -60% Strength, -20% Heal, -20% Heal to units in the same tile
+Quality Armor- +10% Combat
+Quality Weapons- +10% Combat
+Scourge- +40% vs Disciples
+Sentry I- +1 visibility range
+Sentry II- +1 visibility range
+Sentry III- +1 visibility range
+Shock I- +40% vs melee units
+Shock II- +80% vs melee units
+Spell Extension I- Spells cast have an additional point of movement.
+Spell Extension II- Spells cast have an additional point of movement.
+Spell Extension III- Spells cast have an additional point of movement.
+Spellstaff- Can be broken to allow the caster to regain his casting ability.
+Subdue Animal- Allows the units to convert defeated animal units.
+Summoned- A Summoned unit is automatically killed at the beginning of the owning players next turn
+Taskmaster- Can capture slaves.
+Trainer- Can upgrade units away from cities.
+Twincast- Character can cast 2 spells per turn
+Vampire-
[tab]1. +5% healing
[tab]2. +10% strength
[tab]3. Can make level 6 of higher allied units into vampires (level 4 if they are Moroi)
[tab]4. At level 10 they gain the immortality promotion for free.
[tab]5. Can consume population from cities for XP.
[tab]6. Can consume other units to heal (if it is a blood pet they regain 1 movement and the ability to attack)
+Werewolf- Creates Ravenous Werewolves when it kills living units.
+Woodsman I- +40% jungle defense, +40% forest defense
+Woodsman II- Double movement in jungle and forest, +60% jungle and forest defense

Untouched Soul- (Woodelf) Makes the unit immune to the damaging effects of Hell.

Promotions that require resources (Lunargent)- For example Resist Fire could require a Water Mana to earn

Cursed (kevjm)- Unit can't heal

How about a
Blessed by Frost I
+40% defense in ice, tundra
Blessed by Frost II
+40% defense in ice, tundra
double movement in ice, tundra

And what about the light/heavy promotions?

Disciplined - Immune to mind-affecting spells, and cannot be converted.

Well of course you would have promotions for each of the creature types you end up adding, except maybe avatars.

Disciplined - Immune to mind-affecting spells, and cannot be converted.

In a similar vein: Hara-Kiri (or similar). When they die, they do not become slaves/werewolves or similar "captured" units.

Light- (Zuul) greater mobility but decreased strength (defensive strength?)
Heavy- (Zuul) less mobility but increased strength (defensive strength?)
The boon would have to seriously outweigh the loss in order to make me pick one of these over Mobility/Combat.

Of course the boon would outweigh the loss.

Yeah, but I mean by quite a lot. I'd rather have a 3 strength, 2 moves unit than a 1,5 strength, 3 moves one. But I suppose that's up to each individual taste. I can see the advantages of a quick, and large, speed boost for a large strength loss under certain circumstances, now that I think about it.

Yeah, but I mean by quite a lot. I'd rather have a 3 strength, 2 moves unit than a 1,5 strength, 3 moves one. But I suppose that's up to each individual taste. I can see the advantages of a quick, and large, speed boost for a large strength loss under certain circumstances, now that I think about it.

Maybe they could chose the promotion on a turn by turn basis. Each turn our knight gets to choose whether it would rather be heavy or light, and then stays that way until end of turn.

Now there's an idea! I like it, but that would make it more akin to a spell than a promotion... However, it eliminates the rather annoying long-term effect that a permanent promotion would have. Perhaps certain units could have access to it, like a kind of "Forced March" or "Ride Hard" for the speed one, moving fast and throwing caution the wind, and the opposite being "Proceed with Caution" or "Steady does it".

Now there's an idea! I like it, but that would make it more akin to a spell than a promotion... However, it eliminates the rather annoying long-term effect that a permanent promotion would have. Perhaps certain units could have access to it, like a kind of "Forced March" or "Ride Hard" for the speed one, moving fast and throwing caution the wind, and the opposite being "Proceed with Caution" or "Steady does it".

Well that's why i gave the example of a knight, because Knights have to make that decision often. Maybe a commander hero coudl give that decision to each unit in his stack.

Or, maybe the choice would last until the next battle. Sometimes it would last for 100 turns, sometimes for just one.

The boon (when talking about light/heavy) would have to seriously outweigh the loss in order to make me pick one of these over Mobility/Combat.

It my not be worth spending a level upgrade on, but might be okay if applied automatically on unit creation by a building or such.

Also, I think that there should be resistance available against every sphere (except maybe metamagic)

I think that resistance against every sphere would be nice to have, but I shudder to think what the screen would look like at promotion time! Maybe limit to require a mana node of the opposite type to the type being resisted.

I think that resistance against every sphere would be nice to have, but I shudder to think what the screen would look like at promotion time! Maybe limit to require a mana node of the opposite type to the type being resisted.

Now that is a great idea.

A magic resistant civ with this promotion would be tough for me to take out, heh, considering how much I rely on my mages.

A magic resistant civ with this promotion would be tough for me to take out, heh, considering how much I rely on my mages.

*planning to play magic resistant and destroy lunargent*

Heh, with my luck, I'd have another start with no copper, reagents, iron, or mithril, and you woulnd't even have to try very hard. :P

I think that resistance against every sphere would be nice to have, but I shudder to think what the screen would look like at promotion time! Maybe limit to require a mana node of the opposite type to the type being resisted.

Promotions that require resources. It is an interesting idea. I wonder how hard it would be to implement. Hmmm....

Promotions that require resources. It is an interesting idea. I wonder how hard it would be to implement. Hmmm....

*calls talchas*

*calls talchas*
lol :D

I can probably do that, but I didn't say anything b/c I'm gonna be busy the next couple of days and I wanted to get that other stuff in the New Features thread done first. Worst-case (ie there isn't already a nice way to do it), I could probably just take whatever code the requirement for units has and stick it here too. Of course, the AI probably won't save up its promotions a turn or two to wait for the resource, but oh well.

I can probably do that, but I didn't say anything b/c I'm gonna be busy the next couple of days and I wanted to get that other stuff in the New Features thread done first. Worst-case (ie there isn't already a nice way to do it), I could probably just take whatever code the requirement for units has and stick it here too. Of course, the AI probably won't save up its promotions a turn or two to wait for the resource, but oh well.

Thats cool, we are just brainstorming. Your spell work is the most important thing in my mind, second to that would be anything you can do with the alignment/diplo stuff we talked about.

Thats cool, we are just brainstorming. Your spell work is the most important thing in my mind, second to that would be anything you can do with the alignment/diplo stuff we talked about.
Speaking of which, what do you want me to do next with the spell stuff?

Speaking of which, what do you want me to do next with the spell stuff?

I think you are waiting for me there. As soon as Firaxis releases the patch (please god please!!!) I will build a combined dll with your and my changes and be able to make the first alpha version of 2.0.

At that point I will start going through the python making as many spells as possible. Im sure I will have a ton of questions and requests (probably about the AI) at that point. But I don't think there is anything to do on that front right now.

I think you are waiting for me there. As soon as Firaxis releases the patch (please god please!!!) I will build a combined dll with your and my changes and be able to make the first alpha version of 2.0.

At that point I will start going through the python making as many spells as possible. Im sure I will have a ton of questions and requests (probably about the AI) at that point. But I don't think there is anything to do on that front right now.

Is this gonna happen soon? It sounds like it...

Is this gonna happen soon? It sounds like it...

I hope so, its been a little while since they release 1.59 so that may be a good sign. I have no way of knowing for sure.

I think that commando should also give +1 first strike.
a) this allows melee units to get first strikes
b) otherwise commando is too weak, since if you only have one high level unit with it, the unit will outpace the rest of the army, and get slaughtered.

I hope so, its been a little while since they release 1.59 so that may be a good sign. I have no way of knowing for sure.

I hope so too, with 1.57, I can't play other mods besides FFH without missing text errors since they are all made for 1.52. Not that FFH isn't the best, but I still like a little variety from time to time. :P

Though once that happens, it'll probably be time to focus once again on the tech tree, so I want to finish the leaderheads before then. Therefore part of me kinda hopes there's a bit more delay.

I think that commando should also give +1 first strike.
a) this allows melee units to get first strikes
b) otherwise commando is too weak, since if you only have one high level unit with it, the unit will outpace the rest of the army, and get slaughtered.

This is a good idea. I agree that commando is pretty much useless for all but raider units, but I almost never bother to raid, (and who raids with melee units anyway?)prefering to go straight at the city with as little delay as possible.

This is a good idea. I agree that commando is pretty much useless for all but raider units, but I almost never bother to raid, (and who raids with melee units anyway?)prefering to go straight at the city with as little delay as possible.

K, I added a chance to first strike to the commando promotion.

1. If you are working on adding resistance based on the nodes you control, i think that in addition to controlling the opposite node you could control the node of the type you want resistance against. To quote you, who would know more about wire spells and someone with fire mana.
2. In addition to there being resistance promotions, it would be nice if there were also promotions that increase the effects of all of your spells of one sphere. Also requiring nodes.

What actually compelled me to "de-lurk" is an idea I had: A unit that doesn't gain XP by killing enemies, but instead has a chance of receiving one of the promotions the defeated unit had. I suppose it could lead to some interesting scenarios (but it might need a lot of balancing...)

Fellow named psychorg just posted this in the official thread. I think it's a quite cool idea, perhaps for some unthinking undead being which did not learn except through consuming the souls of others, or an Overlord psychic leeching the minds of the victims. It would of course allow stealing of spells too, as spells are promotions.

We could also make a spell or ability that steals a random promotion, but only allows one such stolen promotion at a time. When a new one is stolen, it replaces the previous one.

Heh, you and Chalid posted the same thing in 2 threads. It's a nice idea so now we're sure Kael will catch it!

Fellow named psychorg just posted this in the official thread. I think it's a quite cool idea, perhaps for some unthinking undead being which did not learn except through consuming the souls of others, or an Overlord psychic leeching the minds of the victims. It would of course allow stealing of spells too, as spells are promotions.

We could also make a spell or ability that steals a random promotion, but only allows one such stolen promotion at a time. When a new one is stolen, it replaces the previous one.

I agree, it sounds like a great idea for a unit ability.

What does the 'Orcish' promotion do? I didn't see any description in the Civopedia.

What does the 'Orcish' promotion do? I didn't see any description in the Civopedia.

Currently it just marks the unit as orcish so that the Orc slaying promotion works against it, and that if it is made into a slave it becomes and orc slave. Stuff like that.

Currently it just marks the unit as orcish so that the Orc slaying promotion works against it, and that if it is made into a slave it becomes and orc slave. Stuff like that.

Oh ok, thanks. Was confused about that.

Any plans on giving the promotiion bonuses, like the Elven one does?

Oh ok, thanks. Was confused about that.

Any plans on giving the promotiion bonuses, like the Elven one does?

Yeah, we are considering having some minor base abilities granted by the racial settings.

We might want to add a set of special Promotions for the Spellcasters. Giving more powerfull spells via Combat1-5 seems odd for different reasons.

1) Your best mage defendes first when a stack with several mages and even with some small melee units is attacked (and usually dies).
2) Mage/Warriors will have to specialize a bit.
3) It will be more intuitive.
4) We did the same for Movement and Spell extension.

We might want to add a set of special Promotions for the Spellcasters. Giving more powerfull spells via Combat1-5 seems odd for different reasons.

1) Your best mage defendes first when a stack with several mages and even with some small melee units is attacked (and usually dies).
2) Mage/Warriors will have to specialize a bit.
3) It will be more intuitive.
4) We did the same for Movement and Spell extension.

My thought was that a mage uses his magic to fight, even in hand to hand. So his increased spell ability makes him a better combatant. its the same logic I use for giving an archmage a higher iCombat than an adept.

Actually haven an higer iCombat is bad for mages :(. Or alternativeley we have to change the best defender routine so that mages are the last thing selected. (often a mage fights for example instead of his skeleton (that you summoned to defend the mage).

The Vampire Governor is a citizen right now, I suggest converting the effects of that citizen that into a 'Vampire Governor' promotion, or just add the effects to the Vampirism promotion, since it seems odd that a random citizen can just become a vampire governor.

All it takes is one well-placed bite :evil:

I kind of agree with Chalid. Nothing worse than having a magic user selected as your defender. Is there any way to put them in the back, so to speak, so they only defend when there are no frontline defenders.

Melee and Archers up front. (even though archers realistically are behind the melee)
Mages in the back.

I had an idea regarding the arcane promotion tree, currently it is very easy just to made a swarm of mages/counj etc each with a single spell sphere making the usage of the mana resources rather redundant unless youi are trying for some of the later wonders.

The two ideas are this:
1) You can only promote to level I of a new sphere if the adept already knows an ajacent sphere in the mapping or if the mana resource is availiable.
This would mean it is unlikely for Bannor civs to start using Death magic as it is far from the Law mana they start out with.

2) Higher levels of spheres require there to be the relative mana availiable. To get to level II you would need 1 mana, and to level III 2 mana resources. This allows each civ to specialise easily in the sphere they start out with but makes it harder to branch out.

These proposals would give each civ's arcane units a more unique feel for their civ while still not forcing the matter as you can spend a couple of promotions to get to metamagic and then spread out wherever you wish on the tree or just build the opposing mana node.

I proposed this already, but hey, its still a good idea.

Regarding terrain-specific promotions. A few ideas to spice them up and make them more efficient.

Woodsman/Guerilla/Etc:
They should, in my opinion, provide a bonus on offense as well. For instance half of the defensive bonuses. I think I've seen it done in some other mod.

Woodsman I: 40% Jungle/Forest Defense, 20% Jungle/Forest Attack. (30%?)
Woodsman II: 60% Jungle/Forest Defense, 30% Jungle/Forest Attack. (45%?)

Any maybe:

Hit and run (Reqs Woodsman II & Guerilla II):
+80% Withdrawal chance in Jungle/Forest/Hills Attack

or

Geographer (Reqs Woodsman II & Guerilla II):
+60% Jungle/Forest/Hills Defense.
+30% Jungle/Forest/Hills Attack. (45&?)
No penalty for crossing river.


They are considerably stronger than other promotions when fighting in the right terrain, but useless on open ground and cities. They are no longer strictly defensive promotions, and if the Elves are defending their Forests with Woodsmen - I find it thematically correct that you'll have to invest in some Woodsmen to keep them at bay. Defensive promotions are always stronger than offensive ones.

I have this idea from discussions way back that making a terrain-specific promotion offensive is not as easy as it sounds. The idea has been tossed around, and I'm a fan of it.

The Crazed promotion currently gives the unit the Enraged promotion 50% of the time, I think it would be interesting if it gave other mood promotions and cycle through them like a crazy person.

My suggestion:

Crazed promotion - 25% chance of giving the Enraged Promotion, 25% chance of giving the Cowardly Promotion, 25% chance of giving the Confused promotion, 25% of giving 2 promotions

Enraged: (same as now)
Cowardly: +25% withdraw chance, -10% strength
Confused: +2 first strike, -1 movement point

The 2nd promotion chance simply adds another one of those promotions on to one that's already there without removing it.

I have this idea from discussions way back that making a terrain-specific promotion offensive is not as easy as it sounds. The idea has been tossed around, and I'm a fan of it.

It sounds alot like City Raider, but then again, I've never actually opened the XML.

You might be right. I think the problems came with units that attacked out of a square (say, forest), and into something like plains. That, apparently was not easy to code, even though it makes sense that they keep their offensive abilities, since they are ambushing from their favourite terrain.

It makes sense if you consider a tile to be a square mile. Myself, I imagine a tile to be rather vast, maybe 100 miles by 100 miles. In my imagination, is more of a matter of "We were in forests before we left them to attack the enemy encampment like three weeks ago."


Some quick comparisons, using some new values:

Combat I: +20% Strength always.
Woodsman I: +40% Strength defending forests, +30% Strength attacking forests.

Combat I+II: +40% Strength always.
Woodsman I+II: +100% Strength defending forests. +75% Strength attacking forests, double movement speed in forests.

With the addition of offensive bonuses, Woodsman is always better in forests: by quite a bit on offense, considerably so on defense.

Combat I-V: +100% Strength always, faster regeneration.
Woodsman I-II, Guerilla I-II, Geographer: +200% Strenth defending forests/hills, +150% Strength attacking forests/hills, double movement in forests/hills, no penalty for crossing river.

In total, the Terrain-specific tree is much better in the correct terrain, but still does not outclass Strength. A worry is that these bonuses should probably not apply in cities, regardless of whether it is founded on hills. I'm not sure exactly what could be done about that.


Woodsman I: 40% Jungle/Forest Defense, 30% Jungle/Forest Attack.
Woodsman II: 60% Jungle/Forest Defense, 45% Jungle/Forest Attack.

Geographer (Reqs Woodsman II & Guerilla II):
+100% Jungle/Forest/Hills Defense.
+75% Jungle/Forest/Hills Attack.
No penalty for crossing river.


(It could be worth consideration making some of these promotions Elf-exclusive or Leaves-exclusive. I do think, however, Woodsman, Guerilla and Geographer promotions should be rather tech independent - it doesn't make a lot of sense, and it makes tech supriority even more, well, superior. Choices should be present and aplenty the whole game, not just the last half.)

I also thought about giving it a Fog promotion. The Fog promotion would make it undetectable to any unit unless it was in a square adjacent to the Ghost ship.

I think that this fog promotion would be a ncie thing to add in, maybe in shadow.

The Vampire Governor is a citizen right now, I suggest converting the effects of that citizen that into a 'Vampire Governor' promotion, or just add the effects to the Vampirism promotion, since it seems odd that a random citizen can just become a vampire governor.

howabout having a vampire literaly become a governor, meaning you would need a vampire to create his special building, kinda like the great commander builds the command post...

vampire manor would remain the same, just add the vampire governor to the promotion list of vampirism


but back to my original intention
make some promotions for the recon units for secret service functions...
like assasin and saboteur
i dont know how many functions there are right now, i just saw sabotaging a
tile, sabotaging construction, and stealing plans for unit surveilance
i would suggest

observe culture: every turn in which a unit remains in a city, gain a chance maybe like 10-50% to get 1-5% or rp for one of the technologies the enemy has, that are available for you to research, depending on the city size
i mean, having a high tech neighbour does give you a little focus on what the development looks like, no?, this one possibly not being a negative diplomatic act, but a result of the observation skills of the recon unit

sabotage infrastructure: again maybe give a 5-30% chance to cause 1 unhealth/unhappyness in the city that is cumulative as long as the unit remains in the city tile.
after you get 3negative points, maybe the city screen should show "-3 unhealth for We are having some problems with dirty streets/sewerage system/ rats have overpopulated... whatever"

randomize production: when the next item in production is finished, the city completes a different item of the same class, with chances of it being stronger or weaker
e.g. i set to build a granary, the enemy uses function and after completing the hammers needed for a granary, i may build both an obelisk or a weaponsmith if i have the appropriate technology

steal technology: no further info needed... or is it???
maybe a 10-40% chance to steal 10-25% of rps for one of technologies available for you to research, kinda like the technology conquest mod... btw you could implement that into fall from heaven, i like the idea of it and miss good old civilization 1 when you could pick one of the technologies after conquering a city...


as for promotion themselves
either improvements for each action separately kinda like:
skilled observer: -20% action cost, +50% rps gained,+ 10 chance to gain

or kinda like austion powers:D , whoooops, sorry, i dont know how that got there
i meant kinda like
secret service I chance for success +10%
secret service II chance for success +15%, gold cost -10%
secret service III no diplomatic penalty for being caught, he isnt ours anyway...
secret service IV framing other civs (either hostile to the player using the spy or the civs worst enemy

also for the racial promotions...

howabout:
elven: double movement in forest, ancient forest, +10% forest and ancient forest attack and defense and -10% hills attack
dwarven: double movement in hills, +10% hills attack and defense, -10% forest attack
orc: +20% desert attack and defense, maybe a bonus when attacking empty tiles... they are razing everything in their paths anyway
undead: +20% tundra and ice defense, +10% tundra and ice attack

Regarding terrain-specific promotions. A few ideas to spice them up and make them more efficient.

Hit and run (Reqs Woodsman II & Guerilla II):
+80% Withdrawal chance in Jungle/Forest/Hills Attack.

I love the idea of the hit and run - something I spent a lifetime doing in a variety of RPG's, but maybe rather than making it so powerful for the attacker, do something (if it is possible) along the lines of:

1. The attacker gets a - modifiers on their attack (this is due to it is not being a full on "assault").
2. The defender loses their bonus for defending in the terrain (maybe this is hard to do? But is meant to replicate the confusion of the unexpected strike).
3. A % chance of the hit & run being discovered negating the above (and negating the retreat option (simulating the discovery of the "attacking" units and effectively them being lured into a trap).

You could effectively have one of these for all types of terrain, maybe with different bonuses at different levels - maybe even start some basic Elven units off a minor version of this for woods.... and ditto for Dwarfs and hills....

This will really make a difference to battles as you could use relatively weak units to perform probing attacks, without running the currently near-enough guarranteed chance of losing them... just weakening the enemy enough before you charge in their with your heavy cavalry (so to speak)....

It also means if you were stuck in a hole (so to speak), you could produce massive amounts of some cheap/weak unit with this promotion and possibly be able to hold off (at least for a while) the enemies assaults.

Post-Haste promotion: Available to certain Hippus cavalry units after stables are built in a city.

Restores one movement point to the unit (unlike haste, which adds one movement point to the unit).

It becomes available to the unit when actually in the city. This promotion could come in handy when defending against raiders or barbarians.

Heroes are great and mighty--but how about the unit that kills them? I don't know if this would be a pain to implement, but how about whenever any unit kills a hero it gets a "Slayer or ____" promotion, fill in the hero's name, Savarious, Basium, etc. If there are too many heroes for that, than just make it Hero Slayer promtion.

What would this do? There are plenty of Str + promotions, and there's no point in mimicing orthus axe for every hero. But a slayer of a hero should become a legend in his/her own right. So how about whenever this unit kills someone (after recieving Hero Slayer promotion) your nearest town gets +2 culture? (not per turn, just a slight immediate boost).

Heroes are great and mighty--but how about the unit that kills them? I don't know if this would be a pain to implement, but how about whenever any unit kills a hero it gets a "Slayer or ____" promotion, fill in the hero's name, Savarious, Basium, etc. If there are too many heroes for that, than just make it Hero Slayer promtion.

What would this do? There are plenty of Str + promotions, and there's no point in mimicing orthus axe for every hero. But a slayer of a hero should become a legend in his/her own right. So how about whenever this unit kills someone (after recieving Hero Slayer promotion) your nearest town gets +2 culture? (not per turn, just a slight immediate boost).

Killing heroes is being reserved for "Shadow" and the quest system. They will be a favored target to initiate and end quests.

Heroes are great and mighty--but how about the unit that kills them? I don't know if this would be a pain to implement, but how about whenever any unit kills a hero it gets a "Slayer or ____" promotion, fill in the hero's name, Savarious, Basium, etc. If there are too many heroes for that, than just make it Hero Slayer promtion.

What would this do? There are plenty of Str + promotions, and there's no point in mimicing orthus axe for every hero. But a slayer of a hero should become a legend in his/her own right. So how about whenever this unit kills someone (after recieving Hero Slayer promotion) your nearest town gets +2 culture? (not per turn, just a slight immediate boost).

Or access to the inspiration spell?

Speaking of high movement. Can we disallow the second speed upgrade for archery and melee units? I often feel that i do not need mounted or recon units as my melee troops are already so fast.

Speaking of high movement. Can we disallow the second speed upgrade for archery and melee units? I often feel that i do not need mounted or recon units as my melee troops are already so fast.

Yeap, will do.

I have Mounted as the only land unit capable of getting mobility 3 (ive been considering cutting mobility 3 entirely).

Mobility 2 can be gained by mounted, recon and animal units.

And all land units except siege can gain mobility 1.

Another promotion idea--Liberator. Availible with city raider 2. City Attack-10%. When this unit conquerors a city it gains some free culture. Maybe 5, maybe 10? Could have another prerequisite, like the order, or a good civ, or law mana. Maybe there could be normal/evil counterparts.

Actually i would like an effect like this for the lightbringer of the malakim. It gives culture to newly conquered cities until the first upgrade. Or even better it gives culture of the malakim in whichever (non malakim) city he is at the moment. this would allow to prepare attacks by first sending the lightbringers to get aome culture (during peacetime) and then conquering them... not sure if it is a strategy fitting for the malakim but i like in nevertheless :)

I made a flesh golem out of a werewolf and inquisitor and when killing a warrior got the warrior and a new werewolf. It's a rare situation, but you should make only command or werewolf take effect.

And low on the priority list, but I want to see what new graphic you guys can come up with for flesh golem!

Can you explain to me how you made the Hero Promotion ? The unit gains the minimal amout of xp per combat every turn or what ?

Can you explain to me how you made the Hero Promotion ? The unit gains the minimal amout of xp per combat every turn or what ?

The unit gets 1 xp per turn up to 100 xp. This is regardless of whatever he is doing.

That I know =P

But i was messing whit the editor and could´t see how you determine the number of XP he gains every turn

That I know =P

But i was messing whit the editor and could´t see how you determine the number of XP he gains every turn


if pUnit.isHasPromotion(iHero):
if (pUnit.getExperience() < iHeroMaxXP and CyGame().getSorenRandNum(100, "Bob") <= iHeroXPChance):
pUnit.changeExperience(1,-1)


So if he is under the iHeroMaxXP (thats the HeroMaxXP value in the editor, default 100) he has a percentage chance of gaining an experience point equal to iHeroXPChance (thats the HeroXPChance value in the editor, default 100%).

So by default he has a 100% chance per turn of gaining 1 xp up until he has 100xp.

If you wanted to slow his xp advance you could change the HeroXPChance to 50 and then he would only gain an xp half the turn until he gained 100 xp. If you wanted to modify the amount of xp he could gain befire the hero promotion quit giving xp you could modify the iHeroMaxXP value up or down.

Ohh I see, thanks

Here are some ideas of promotions to make the unit lines more unique.

Scout line:
Trophy (promotion): when the unit kills a animal it gains gold.
Trapper (promotion): can build the Trap improvment. Any enemy unit which moves into the square is damaged. The trap disappears afterwards.

Warrior Line:
Avenger (promotion): +15% for each of your non-summon units killed this turn.

Cavalry line:
Scavenger (promotion): This unit generates more gold when razing a improvment or a city.
Flanking (promotion): If the unit have yet move point when it attacks a enemy in a non-city square it gains +40% to combat.

Adept line:
Blood Weaving (power): Require the Black Wizard promotion. Until the end of the turn every time the unit casts a spell there is 40% he will create a copy of thet spell. New targets are chosen. The unit loses half it's maxHP every time he casts a spell copy this way.
Scholar (promotion): Require the White Wizard promotion. Generate research points if he is in a city with a library. The points generated are proportional to the number of spell spheres known by the unit.
Dark Wizard (promotion): Cannot gain the White Wizard promotion. Cannot cast spells from the good spheres. The unit heals -10% ang gains +10% xp.
White Wizard (promotion): Cannot gain the Black Wizard promotion. Cannot cas spells from the evil spheres. Gains the Cure I promotion.
Battlemage (upgrade): A new tier 4 upgrade to the mage. High power unit with only Sorcery II.
Defiler (promotion): Require the Black Wizard promotion. Whenever the unit casts a spell it creates fallout and loses 25% of it's maxHP. The spells casted by this unit are unresistable and immune to metamagic. High level promotion.

Disciple line:
Exalted (promotion): Can only be learned by Order, Leaves and Runes disciples. A unit who attacks the exalted unit gains the Marked promotion. Marked have -40% combat power against units of the same religion as the attacked disciple.
Eldritch Taint (promotion): Can only be learned by Ashes and Overlord disciples. A unit who attacks the unit gains the Coward promotion. Coward units cannot attack units with higher level.
Martyr (power): All units in the stack recover all it's HP. Can only be learned by high level disciples.

Demon race:
Plague Eater (promotion): +40% against diseased units.

:crazyeye: Chaos Theory:

Increases the rate at which a unit gains experience at the cost that all promotions for this unit are assigned randomly.

(perhaps a spell, or perhaps a certain unit could start with it- Perhaps Loki could cast it? Seems like a Balseraph kind've spell/promotion :) )

Is the '-1 terrain movement cost' promotion still in the game? I haven't come accross it and it could come in handy balancing some of the units, making it available to recon units rather than one of the mobility promotions perhaps? Available with tracking?

Yes its still in, you have to resaerch hidden path for the forest one and dwarfen mining for the hills one.

I thought those promotions gave double movement in forest and hills, not -1 terrain movement cost..?

I'm talking about the vanilla mobility promotion, which works differently to the FfH mobility promotion.

I thought those promotions gave double movement in forest and hills, not -1 terrain movement cost..?


Oh then i have misunderstood what you meant. I'm not sure if i know the promotion you are speaking of then. But i know what it does now ;).

Oh yeah, that one that came off of having mounted with two flanking promotions, forget the name. I do believe its out of FfH.

A promotion for your Saboteur units to increase how well they spy. Give them the ability to steal tech. Maybe frame another civ if caught (and if this fails it pisses two civs off instead of just the one). Maybe a chance (or higher chance) to escape if caught.

These should all be higher tier promotions and probably require a tech or two, but I can see them being damn useful and in genre for these units. Heck I can see it being fun to get one of these built up so that you could start framing the other civs. Like not increasing the chance not the get caught... but increasing the ability to frame others and escape... even though that could really blow up in your face.

If this sounds interesting at all I can type more about the subject.

I would like to see something like march for naval units. An experienced crew could repair the ship while it's mouving...

I think some of the promotions should be toned down a bit. Especially the 80% against melee/archer and the city raider.

For example, in my latest game, I completely wiped out about 5 different civs with TWO units. One of my warriors somehow killed Orthus while defending in a city and I immediately put him to work against the barbs. Eventually upgraded the guy to Maceman, by that time he was lvl 9 or 10. I rushed Veil and once I got Rosier, it was all over. My maceman and Rosier just went balistic and wiped everything out in their paths. Didn't even need catapults, they just steamrolled the entire map together. Only other units built were archers and crossbows to occupy the cities I didn't raze.

Woodland Guardian: Unit gets +50% extra defence in forest squares, and +50% when attacking into forest squares. Unit cannot exit forests.

Is there a way you could make a Combat X promotion that works like the regular combat promotions but can be taken an unlimited number of times after you have, say combat 5 and are above level 10? Otherwise, early game hero's start running out of steam, especially if use you them a lot or mess around with hero or barb xp settings.

I got a list of balances and new ideas on promotions.

Amphibious: is not good enough, add some 10-20% attack damage.
Heal: Remove Combat IV+V extra healing and add them to a new promotion.
Combat VI: Combat +25% (should need some tech).
Commando: is not good enough, add some +10% attack damage
Medic III: +80% per turn will heal most units instantly, maybe too good, especially if you have the other ones too.
Subdue Animal: add +25% vs animals.
Guerilla/Woodsman: Should also add extra attack bonus.
Attack/Defend I+II+III+IV: +30% attack/defence, makes more varieties to units.
Drill: Most other pormotion has double bonuses compared to vanilla, but not these. They should be somewhat better.

Maybe have new promotions like traps for scouts (low damage when walking on that tile, and dissaperes after a while), and flee chance (similar to withdraw but used when attacked).

Commando: is not good enough, add some +10% attack damage.

You want to make the Raider trait stronger???

Amphibious: is not good enough, add some 10-20% attack damage.

Hmm that might be true. Maybe we should simply remove it? Water walking includes Amphibious anyway. Or add a first Strike Chance?

Heal: Remove Combat IV+V extra healing and add them to a new promotion.

Its the only way to get extra healing (without use of magic) So its ok for Combat units

Combat VI: Combat +25% (should need some tech).

Whats the additional gaine gameplaywise?


Commando: is not good enough, add some +10% attack damage

Its not good on one unit alone that might be true (except for pillaging..) but on a pack. Did you try the Hippus...

Medic III: +80% per turn will heal most units instantly, maybe too good, especially if you have the other ones too.

Its only handed out to High pirests (max 3 per player) so it is ok. You cannot promote on Medic in FfH!


Subdue Animal: add +25% vs animals.

This one is direly needed :)


Guerilla/Woodsman: Should also add extra attack bonus.
Attack/Defend I+II+III+IV: +30% attack/defence, makes more varieties to units.

We have not set the infrastructure for these. But maybe something along the line will be in a later Version.

Drill: Most other pormotion has double bonuses compared to vanilla, but not these. They should be somewhat better.


Thought about that, too, but actually they stack with the other promotions.
Eg Comabt makes each of teh first strikes more effective.
So they require thinking before using the way they are now. I like that :)

Is there a way you could make a Combat X promotion that works like the regular combat promotions but can be taken an unlimited number of times after you have, say combat 5 and are above level 10? Otherwise, early game hero's start running out of steam, especially if use you them a lot or mess around with hero or barb xp settings.

We are considering something. But remember that the heroes are not intended to be used throughout the entire game. Any early game hero is powerful in his time but wont match up to late game heroes. Their power wanes differently depending on the heros, but we have no desire to make them last forever.

I got a list of balances and new ideas on promotions.

Amphibious: is not good enough, add some 10-20% attack damage.
Heal: Remove Combat IV+V extra healing and add them to a new promotion.
Combat VI: Combat +25% (should need some tech).
Commando: is not good enough, add some +10% attack damage
Medic III: +80% per turn will heal most units instantly, maybe too good, especially if you have the other ones too.
Subdue Animal: add +25% vs animals.
Guerilla/Woodsman: Should also add extra attack bonus.
Attack/Defend I+II+III+IV: +30% attack/defence, makes more varieties to units.
Drill: Most other pormotion has double bonuses compared to vanilla, but not these. They should be somewhat better.

Maybe have new promotions like traps for scouts (low damage when walking on that tile, and dissaperes after a while), and flee chance (similar to withdraw but used when attacked).

I agree with Chalid on everything. I'll add the +25% vs animals to Subdue animal.

Hmm that might be true. Maybe we should simply remove it? Water walking includes Amphibious anyway. Or add a first Strike Chance?

Whats wrong with extra attack? Having extra combat on attack only and nothing extra on defend. Making this promotion different than others.


Its the only way to get extra healing (without use of magic) So its ok for Combat units

Thought about that, too, but actually they stack with the other promotions.
Eg Comabt makes each of teh first strikes more effective.
So they require thinking before using the way they are now. I like that
:)

What do you mean only way? I meant I think the combat promotions are too good, almost always you choose those ones first then others, making little variation on units. Better to remove the extra from them and make a new promotion - heal. Also now you always choose combat before drill because having a lot of drill first is not so good - hence little variation.



Whats the additional gaine gameplaywise?


I fast run out of good promotions so one more at least is needed. But if other promotions like attack and defend are added you have more to use and this one is less needed.


We have not set the infrastructure for these. But maybe something along the line will be in a later Version.


You mean you don't have the code for it yet? Well defend and attack already works (but the info about it is cluttered). Extra attack on features, yes those need coding. But for example elves and other wood creatures should have extra attack in forrests.

You mean you don't have the code for it yet? Well defend and attack already works (but the info about it is cluttered). Extra attack on features, yes those need coding. But for example elves and other wood creatures should have extra attack in forrests.

There are a few things we want to add some functions for us to play with. The most exciting of which is what Chalid was alluding to and I'll let him talk about it.

But we also want modifers for the terrain that is being attacked into (like you mentioned), and I have iAttack and iDefend as promotion attributes to be able to directly give units bonus/penalties when attacking or defending. Right now we use the same somewhat ugly method as you to accomplish this effect.

As there are only three Dragons in the game, with all off time being very though to kill, i would like to have some extras for bringing them down:

My suggestions:

- give the unit that defeats a dragon the name "Slayer of xxx"

- the immortal promotion (like siegfried (german myths) got from bathing in the dragons blood...)

- the fear promotion ("hey, i'm stronger than your dragon... and now i'm coming for you ;) )

Just had a idea for a new promotion for summoners, don't know if this has been suggested or discussed somewhere here (or is already in - if yes i missed it :) ). But nevertheless:

Spirit Link:

- Requires Combat 5, so same level as twincast.

- Whenever a unit summoned by somebody who has spirit link wins a battle the summoner gains 1 exp.

We were talking about having that as the standard leveling system for mages all the way back in FfH 1.

As far as I can remember, it was abandoned for the simple reason that the coding for it would be a complete nightmare/impossible. May have been another reason, though. My memory fails me.

Year coding this would be a pain as each summoned unit would have to remember its summoner. That adds a lot of complexity for a small gain.

why isn't there a promotion vs the recon line?
they're obviously the hardest to kill with low level units, without some high level heros/units removing a beastmaster from a forested hilltop can be very painful.

and-will there be a single promotion for the unit that defeats acheron/captures the dragons horde?
if not, then
perhaps a random promotion could be given-
wings of the dragon+1 movement, can move in impassable
eyes of the dragon+2 sight
blessed weapons+40% combat, +20% city attack
dragons breath+ability to summon a fireball, -100% charm

That is the purpose of recon units, they require no resources and no units get bonuses in attacking them. They are the only good units that some civs can get a hold of in games with bad starting positions.

why isn't there a promotion vs the recon line?

Thats one of the advantages of the recon line, no promotions against you.

they're obviously the hardest to kill with low level units, without some high level heros/units removing a beastmaster from a forested hilltop can be very painful.

Yeap.

and-will there be a single promotion for the unit that defeats acheron/captures the dragons horde?
if not, then
perhaps a random promotion could be given-
wings of the dragon+1 movement, can move in impassable
eyes of the dragon+2 sight
blessed weapons+40% combat, +20% city attack
dragons breath+ability to summon a fireball, -100% charm

No plans for a promotion. The considerable xp and gaining the dragons hoard (or the gold and gems if the player razes the city) is the only scheduled reward.

everything is more fun if you get a unique promotion for it as well...
and if you have to kill the dragon by weakening it, the xp isn't all that much,

i suppose a promotion would be too much for a dragon killed mostly by my combat3 treetop defence and dance of blades skeletons....

I have an idea for a whole new type of magic resistant promotions.
1. The current magic resistant promotion will be changed to give --+40% against adepts, and doubled chance to resist resistable spells.
This is available to every civ, however magic resistant civs start with it.

This part is only available to magic resistant civs:
2. Then we have a a magic resistance promotion for every sphere.--What?????
Jah. Each one gives total immunity (not even a valid target for targetable ones) to the sorcery spells of that sphere, and +100% strength against summons of that sphere (summons includes fireballs, meteors, tiger, and skeletons but not krakens).
however, not all of them are available. Only if you have mana of that sphere, or mana of the opposite sphere. So fireor water is neededto get fire resistance.

Thought about that, too, but actually they stack with the other promotions.
Eg Comabt makes each of teh first strikes more effective.
So they require thinking before using the way they are now. I like that :)
and how many archers have you raised to drill 4? ;)

you could still make them slightly better, say, bump up 2 of the half first strike chances to actual first strikes-this would increase the power of the promotions greatly

plus drill doesn't lead to anything usefull-
perhaps if drill 4 could lead to marksman(kill indefinate amount of magic users quickly)
or drill 3 could lead to blitz then it would also be a more viable option

i also think that city raider three makes more sense giving +20% vs archers rather than meelee as archers are the best defense

I think that Drill is fine, its better then you think because (I'm not sure?) it doesnt change the odds-calculator much, and some of it is chance. But consider the fact that 2 first strikes can change the battle alot when you might only need 5 hits to kill your target. (Add treetop defense and the Blade Dance to this ;))

Also, I dont understand why Archer of the leaves cant select the Wooden promotions anymore.

I think that Drill is fine, its better then you think because (I'm not sure?) it doesnt change the odds-calculator much, and some of it is chance. But consider the fact that 2 first strikes can change the battle alot when you might only need 5 hits to kill your target. (Add treetop defense and the Blade Dance to this ;))

Also, I dont understand why Archer of the leaves cant select the Wooden promotions anymore.

The problem with first strikes is that they're not particularly guarenteed, and they dont change combat stats, as you said. A 3 archer vs a 5 unit, is generally going to lose. Even if it has a ton of drill promotions.

I would like to see a promotion type that has "double damage" for first strike rounds. Since the discussions on stone skin and lifespark began, ive been hopeing for some sort of "hard hitting" promotion.

Sniper: Successful First Strikes do double damage, - 1 First strikes (Available at the end of the drill line of promotions)

Mortal Wound: Sucessful First strikes cause bleeding (X amount of damage done to enemy per combat round regardless who wins the round). - 1 First strikes. (Available at the end of the drill line of promotions)

These two promtoins would have 2 effects, they would reduce the total amount of first strikes a unit has (and had built up), but also add qualities TO those first strikes to make them very powerful in certain situations and quite deadly, if not very damaging. A unit that had both, would be able to cripple enemies, even with low strength. The lower strengths of archers would still mean that they'd lose most rounds, but the damage they would have done would be enough to possibly turn the tide.

-Qes

EDIT: Keep in mind that if your worried about uber city defenders here, that the units grabbing these promotions have likely not also taken city defender promotoins, as the drill line would be required. Granted, that if an uber archer unit was roaming around, then decided to defend a city, having both would be a force to behold. Still, seige engines or cavalry (first strike immune) could spell doom for the little unit.

A high experienced archers is a deadly thing indeed, combine the Drill line with a full combat line and city+hill defense and you have a hard to beat unit. Upgrade it to a Flurry or Longbowman or something and its even better.

But sure, something like you said would be nice, critical hits and bleeding during battle.

I still dont understand why (atleast the leaves archer) they dont have access to the wooden promotions.

I still dont understand why (atleast the leaves archer) they dont have access to the wooden promotions.

Maybe all the woods are so dense that it's impossible to hit anything but tree with arrows :D

Archery combat class has access to Guerilla, not Woodsman. Ranged combat is designed specifically to be most useful out in the open, and when you've got higher ground. The trees get in the way.

Yes, but Archer of the LEAVES gets pretty gimped by that, I believe. (You get Woodsman II from the religion afterall, Runes get Guerilla 2 and their special unit even get it)

Yes, but Archer of the LEAVES gets pretty gimped by that, I believe. (You get Woodsman II from the religion afterall, Runes get Guerilla 2 and their special unit even get it)

But the dwarves have crap archers. So its ok that their normal units do ok in hills.
-Qes

It just goes to show you, even the Fellowship needs to chop down all their forests.

But the dwarves have crap archers. So its ok that their normal units do ok in hills.
-Qes

Well, when the regular archer is better at defending city then the Unique Archer unit of a religion I think there is something wrong. The Archer of Leavs dont have anything special really but +10% in forests/ancient and double movement in them. So they arent really much better in the field then a regular archer anyways. I guess the fact they dont require an Archery Range makes them OK.

the archer of leaves is not only cheaper than the regular archer, but it doesn't require a special building to create.

That is the balance.

Make me able to convert them to an elven slave, and maybe...

Sorry, for cluttering the promotion thread with unit talk >_<

Well, when the regular archer is better at defending city then the Unique Archer unit of a religion I think there is something wrong. The Archer of Leavs dont have anything special really but +10% in forests/ancient and double movement in them. So they arent really much better in the field then a regular archer anyways. I guess the fact they dont require an Archery Range makes them OK.

They also dont require buildings to build them. Remember that efficiency is often better that totality. If you've got the religion, you dont need archery buildings.
-Qes

EDIT: Damnit, grillick beats everyone.

Yeah, well, I said that makes them OK. I still dont think they are especially good.

(Having access to woodsman promotion would make them good)

Yeah, well, I said that makes them OK. I still dont think they are especially good.

(Having access to woodsman promotion would make them good)

Access would be good, though not automation. If they leveled up, i agree that they should have it as an eventual option.
-Qes

Ever thought about making some promotions more distinguishable from their pedecessors? I'm thinking of Shock I and Shock II for example. Would be nice to see the difference with one glance. Let it be two instead of one fist or add a star to the fist. You might even lend (steal) some icons for this from Sevo Mod. ;-)

Btw, also for some other promotions it would be nice to have simpler modeled icons. They did it this way in vanilla for some reason I think.

You should be able to gain experience, by moving, exploring, casting magic, and maybe other stuff like healing and such.

Cross-posted from the cavalry line thread.


Maneuver by Elements: New tech or reworked existing tech. (Perhaps with other stuff.)
Effects: Allows the Screening promotion to mounted units. Screening is a clone of the existing Fear spell. It simulates teh ability of a mounted force to simply ride outside the ranger radius of any approaching threat. A Screening unit has a chance to force the attacker to execute a Withdrawal action before the first round of combat. This give a line of mounted units a chance to form a skirmish line ahead of an attacking force. Details TBD, but as this would work like an existing (and nifty) bit of code, it seems plausible.

Cross-posted from the cavalry line thread.


Maneuver by Elements: New tech or reworked existing tech. (Perhaps with other stuff.)
Effects: Allows the Screening promotion to mounted units. Screening is a clone of the existing Fear spell. It simulates teh ability of a mounted force to simply ride outside the ranger radius of any approaching threat. A Screening unit has a chance to force the attacker to execute a Withdrawal action before the first round of combat. This give a line of mounted units a chance to form a skirmish line ahead of an attacking force. Details TBD, but as this would work like an existing (and nifty) bit of code, it seems plausible.
Wouldn't this make cavalry units the best stack defenders? Regardless of their strength?
How about instead give cavalry an ability similar to Loki or Maian's Heroes, only on a % to succeed basis?

Maybe a Fearless promotion instead which actually gives a slight bonus against units with fear?

Wouldn't this make cavalry units the best stack defenders? Regardless of their strength?
How about instead give cavalry an ability similar to Loki or Maian's Heroes, only on a % to succeed basis?

This is one of the details to be resolved. We don't want a cav unit to prevent attacks on the main stack itself. We want teh cav to move ahead of teh main stack, cutting off the enemy's ability to maneuver. There are some reasons to feel optimistic though.

1) Mounted units don't get defensive benefits. So foot units in the same tile would generally defend first over mounted units in the tile. Except, maybe, in flatlands, where mounted units are supposed to thrive. But even then, a powerful attacking stack is likely to be full of very powerful non-mounted units. Those units wold still go out to accept battle. (I assume ... could be wrong here!!!)

2) The Screening promotion can be restricted to certain specific mounted units. This would represent a defacto split of mounted units into "light" and "heavy" cavalry. "Light" cav, like Horse Archers, could learn teh screening promotion. "Heavy" units, such as War Elephants, could not. This would further lessen the chance cav units could intercept attacks launched at the main stack full of powerful attackers.

3) There will still be instances where a cav unit can screen other units in the same tile. Wounded units, Adepts, Zealots, Great People, Workers ... all of these would let the mounted units fight first. Is this a deal-breaker or a deal-maker? Or none of the above?

As for the randomness ... yes, I agree, the ability should not work 100% of the time. I do not know how detailed the Team can make the percentage calculation, or how complicated they'd want to make it. But in theroy it would be possible to adjust the % chance of success based upon various factors ... perhaps even differnt Screening promotions, I, II and III. Details TBD, but yes, I agree entirely that this thing should not work automatically.

Well, when the regular archer is better at defending city then the Unique Archer unit of a religion I think there is something wrong. The Archer of Leavs dont have anything special really but +10% in forests/ancient and double movement in them. So they arent really much better in the field then a regular archer anyways. I guess the fact they dont require an Archery Range makes them OK.

:hmm: I see the 112 :hammers: tier-2 religious units as stop-gap troops, not as the prime example of that unit type. I look at 'em as religiously-motivated militia. Levees. (The sort of units King Edward send into battle against unkempt Scots instead of using up expensive arrows.) They let a civ obtain some capability in that area, but of lesser quality and at an inefficient cost. Civs that have put in the resources to learn specific warmaking techs should be able to field units superior to the militia version. All just IMO of course.

The Drown of the OO are a bit of an exception to this genral rule. Their 4 STR is pretty tough for their era, but the hammer inefficiency remains. It would not be FfH if every rule of thumb was not broken at least once. ;)

Maybe a Fearless promotion instead which actually gives a slight bonus against units with fear?

Cav units would not literally be casting fear spells. They would be using their mobility to deny combat to slow-moving threats, while still remaining in the general area. The net effect in the game is modeled much the same way, but it's nnot literally fear at work.

Now, how about light cav used against light cav in the screening role? It seems plausible to have Screening I, II, and III. A unit with Screening III would find it rather easy to foil a unit with only Screening I. The same concept could work without the various levels of Screening of course. Screening-capable units could counteract each other.

Wouldn't these upgrades make the Hippus really strong? I mean nerf-required strong...

Wouldn't these upgrades make the Hippus really strong? I mean nerf-required strong...

Beats me. :) It'd have to be playtested to see for sure.

[Edit: If a unit needed Screening I-II-III, for example, in order to really make this ability reliable, then that also means three promotions do not go into boosting the unit's STR. So there's a little bit of a self-balance there.

And none of this help against the magic. In fact, this thing might open a whole new role for spells.

Earthquake:[/I] Bounce them horse soldiers all over the map. Where's yer skirmish line now, pal?

[I]Entangle: Root them horsies to the ground, send in the grunts to mop up. (i.e. Entangle negates Screening.)

Perhaps some new Spirit or Mind applications might arise to meddle in this sort of thing?]

So at first impressions I don't think Hippus should start counting up the victories yet. :)

From the unit thread:


Fourthly - some undead specifics ideas:

*Undead perhaps cheaper than the standard units? Not merely no maintenance.
*If possible require 150% damage to kill (they must be completely destroyed not merely "mortally wounded". Though this is what i suggested earlier, and may be impossible.

-Qes

Instead of extra HPs, I'd think that some undead should get a parting shot ability to represent the extra effort to kill them. Parting shot would work the opposite of first strike and allow the defeated undead unit an extra strike after it died.

I could really see this being done on other units like berserkers and skeletons. Both of them are typically thought of as continuing to fight after their deaths.

:hmm: I see the 112 :hammers: tier-2 religious units as stop-gap troops, not as the prime example of that unit type. I look at 'em as religiously-motivated militia. Levees. (The sort of units King Edward send into battle against unkempt Scots instead of using up expensive arrows.) They let a civ obtain some capability in that area, but of lesser quality and at an inefficient cost. Civs that have put in the resources to learn specific warmaking techs should be able to field units superior to the militia version. All just IMO of course.

The Drown of the OO are a bit of an exception to this genral rule. Their 4 STR is pretty tough for their era, but the hammer inefficiency remains. It would not be FfH if every rule of thumb was not broken at least once. ;)

Well the leaves archers are more expensive then regular archers. (atleast last time I checked)

Hey Kael-how hard would it be to code an ability: Gift of the Axe. This would bring up a targeted spell that transfers Orthus' axe to anotehr unit in the stack.

Hey Kael-how hard would it be to code an ability: Gift of the Axe. This would bring up a targeted spell that transfers Orthus' axe to anotehr unit in the stack.

I think Orthus would lose his charm if he started handing out his axe.

....
I mena this for all of the people always wanting to give the axe to their late game heros and stuff. (once Orthus is dead, and the ai probably won't use this at all anyways)

....
I mena this for all of the people always wanting to give the axe to their late game heros and stuff. (once Orthus is dead, and the ai probably won't use this at all anyways)

Hehe, yeah I didnt think that far. I think I was too occupied with thinking about Orthus. In this MP game we just played, 4 players FFA with Raging Barbs, there were 2 players who played as the Clan of Embers. And when Orthus spawned 1 tile from my borders, it took them like 2-3 turns to declare war on me to *protect* their king. I ended up Pop-Rushing Saverous and killing orthus and then instead of retribution bringing peace to the area.

From the unit thread:



Instead of extra HPs, I'd think that some undead should get a parting shot ability to represent the extra effort to kill them. Parting shot would work the opposite of first strike and allow the defeated undead unit an extra strike after it died.

I could really see this being done on other units like berserkers and skeletons. Both of them are typically thought of as continuing to fight after their deaths.

I sorta dig this idea, it needs more thought.
-Qes

I think Heroic strength should be tied to level and not Combat, if possible, since it discourages all other promotions.

I think Heroic strength should be tied to level and not Combat, if possible, since it discourages all other promotions.

This is VERY true.
-Qes

EDIT: Although, I should point out, any random combat promotion is more valueable than the heroic promotion (on a strict basis) for units with base strengths of above 5. As 20% of 5 is 1. Heroic strength is a +1 str. Now, if you've a load of other bonuses, then the Heroic becomes compouned in value, again being awesome. But generally, its smart to pike +% over the heroic str after a base of 5 str.

This is VERY true.
-Qes

EDIT: Although, I should point out, any random combat promotion is more valueable than the heroic promotion (on a strict basis) for units with base strengths of above 5. As 20% of 5 is 1. Heroic strength is a +1 str. Now, if you've a load of other bonuses, then the Heroic becomes compouned in value, again being awesome. But generally, its smart to pike +% over the heroic str after a base of 5 str.

Well, as +1 Str works in every battle, just like combat promotions, and as it increases the effeciency of every other % str based promotion, I'd think it's still good to increase STR over many other promotions. Going from 9 to 10 might be a 10% increase, but its also 10% increase on every promotion the unit already has. Also being at 50% HP means you have 5 STR not 4.5.

Well, as +1 Str works in every battle, just like combat promotions, and as it increases the effeciency of every other % str based promotion, I'd think it's still good to increase STR over many other promotions. Going from 9 to 10 might be a 10% increase, but its also 10% increase on every promotion the unit already has. Also being at 50% HP means you have 5 STR not 4.5.

Yeah, i know its not wholey across the board, hence the "Strict" interpretation of it.
-Qes

Hey Kael-how hard would it be to code an ability: Gift of the Axe. This would bring up a targeted spell that transfers Orthus' axe to anotehr unit in the stack.

Hmm... its pretty easy to do. Let me see what I can do.

Yes!!! Saverous Massacres Coming Up!

How about adding defensive withdrawals to the flanking promotions?

def onCombatResult(self, argsList):
'Combat Result'
pWinner,pLoser = argsList
playerX = PyPlayer(pWinner.getOwner())
unitX = PyInfo.UnitInfo(pWinner.getUnitType())
playerY = PyPlayer(pLoser.getOwner())
unitY = PyInfo.UnitInfo(pLoser.getUnitType())
pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(pWinner.getOwner())
bUncaptured = True

pLPlayer = gc.getPlayer(pLoser.getOwner())
iRoot = gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_ROOT')
iFlanking1 = gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_FLANKING1')
iFlanking2 = gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_FLANKING2')
iFlanking3 = gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_FLANKING3')

iRnd = CyGame().getSorenRandNum(100, "Maniac")
if pLoser.isHasPromotion(iRoot):
iRnd = iRnd - 150
if pLoser.isHasPromotion(iFlanking1):
iRnd = iRnd + 20
if pLoser.isHasPromotion(iFlanking2):
iRnd = iRnd + 20
if pLoser.isHasPromotion(iFlanking3):
iRnd = iRnd + 10
if pWinner.isHasPromotion(iFlanking1):
iRnd = iRnd - 20
if pWinner.isHasPromotion(iFlanking2):
iRnd = iRnd - 20
if pWinner.isHasPromotion(iFlanking3):
iRnd = iRnd - 10
if iRnd >= 101:
pPlot = cf.FFHFindClearPlot(pLoser, -1)
if pPlot != -1:
newUnit = pLPlayer.initUnit(pLoser.getUnitType(), pPlot.getX(), pPlot.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
CyInterface().addMessage(pWinner.getOwner(),True,2 5,'Our enemies flee like cowards!','AS2D_DISCOVERBONUS',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Highscores/Warp.dds',ColorTypes(8),pPlot.getX(),pPlot.getY(), True,True)
CyInterface().addMessage(pLoser.getOwner(),True,25 ,'Tactical retreat succesful.','AS2D_DISCOVERBONUS',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Highscores/Warp.dds',ColorTypes(8),pPlot.getX(),pPlot.getY(), True,True)
newUnit.setDamage(95, True)
newUnit.setExperience(pLoser.getExperience(), -1)
newUnit.setLevel(pLoser.getLevel())
for iCount in range(gc.getNumPromotionInfos()):
if (pLoser.isHasPromotion(iCount)):
newUnit.setHasPromotion(iCount, True)

Sweet! (perhaps we could also include something tso that catapults defend the stack extra since they can now withdraw)

if a defender withdraws they lose their position (i.e. vacate their defending tile to an adjacent tile) so you might not want catapults to defend since itd push them out of the stack and make them easy targets

How about adding defensive withdrawals to the flanking promotions?

def onCombatResult(self, argsList):
'Combat Result'
pWinner,pLoser = argsList
playerX = PyPlayer(pWinner.getOwner())
unitX = PyInfo.UnitInfo(pWinner.getUnitType())
playerY = PyPlayer(pLoser.getOwner())
unitY = PyInfo.UnitInfo(pLoser.getUnitType())
pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(pWinner.getOwner())
bUncaptured = True

pLPlayer = gc.getPlayer(pLoser.getOwner())
iRoot = gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_ROOT')
iFlanking1 = gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_FLANKING1')
iFlanking2 = gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_FLANKING2')
iFlanking3 = gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_FLANKING3')

iRnd = CyGame().getSorenRandNum(100, "Maniac")
if pLoser.isHasPromotion(iRoot):
iRnd = iRnd - 150
if pLoser.isHasPromotion(iFlanking1):
iRnd = iRnd + 20
if pLoser.isHasPromotion(iFlanking2):
iRnd = iRnd + 20
if pLoser.isHasPromotion(iFlanking3):
iRnd = iRnd + 10
if pWinner.isHasPromotion(iFlanking1):
iRnd = iRnd - 20
if pWinner.isHasPromotion(iFlanking2):
iRnd = iRnd - 20
if pWinner.isHasPromotion(iFlanking3):
iRnd = iRnd - 10
if iRnd >= 101:
pPlot = cf.FFHFindClearPlot(pLoser, -1)
if pPlot != -1:
newUnit = pLPlayer.initUnit(pLoser.getUnitType(), pPlot.getX(), pPlot.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
CyInterface().addMessage(pWinner.getOwner(),True,2 5,'Our enemies flee like cowards!','AS2D_DISCOVERBONUS',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Highscores/Warp.dds',ColorTypes(8),pPlot.getX(),pPlot.getY(), True,True)
CyInterface().addMessage(pLoser.getOwner(),True,25 ,'Tactical retreat succesful.','AS2D_DISCOVERBONUS',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Highscores/Warp.dds',ColorTypes(8),pPlot.getX(),pPlot.getY(), True,True)
newUnit.setDamage(95, True)
newUnit.setExperience(pLoser.getExperience(), -1)
newUnit.setLevel(pLoser.getLevel())
for iCount in range(gc.getNumPromotionInfos()):
if (pLoser.isHasPromotion(iCount)):
newUnit.setHasPromotion(iCount, True)

We actually already have defensive withdrawals, Loki uses it to flee combat. But I would be hesitant to use it on a much larger scale. You just come up with all sorts of odd combinations such as fleeing a fireball, fleeing an assassin, fleeing a summon (and therefor making the summon worthless).

So its a really powerful ability. It could be okay if its kept at a low chance, but I dont know if its really "fun". It may be more frustrating as players count on having driled through to kill a unit only to have it escape.

Slow siege units withdrawing defensively doesn't really make sense. One could give them a -150 iRnd modifier. One could expand on this event in numerous other ways, eg make offensive withdrawal chance always the same as defensive withdrawal. Give horsemen +25 iRnd, horse archers +35 etc.


We actually already have defensive withdrawals, Loki uses it to flee combat.

Yeah I couldn't find that event. Isn't it in the eventmanager python file? A search on "Loki" doesn't give me the event.

But I would be hesitant to use it on a much larger scale. You just come up with all sorts of odd combinations such as fleeing a fireball, fleeing an assassin, fleeing a summon (and therefor making the summon worthless).

So its a really powerful ability. It could be okay if its kept at a low chance, but I dont know if its really "fun". It may be more frustrating as players count on having driled through to kill a unit only to have it escape.

I must disagree with you 100%. Alpha centauri already had defensive withdrawals. Any defending unit in the open that hadn't attacked the previous turn and had more movement points than its attacker would withdraw to the tile it came from after being damaged 50%. Except if the attacker had the ECM ability, but whatever, that's a detail. Civ4 and Civ3 IIRC too reversed that to offensive withdrawals.
Anyway, I want to say that in seven years I've never heard anyone complain about defensive withdrawals being frustrating or unfun. As long as you make people aware of the new rule, they can plan their tactics around it, and there shouldn't be a problem.

So you could include eg the following in the changelog and civilopedia:

Defensive withdrawal chance is always the same as offensive withdrawal chance.
There are three exceptions:
1. Rooted units cannot withdraw.
2. Siege units will never withdraw defensively.
3. You cannot withdraw from a Fireball, Meteor Storm, Assassin, Shadow or Saboteur attack.
(That's all the exceptions I can think of - I don't see why a horse archer couldn't or wouldn't flee from eg a balor :eek: or any other summoned unit coming in their direction)

As long as you read it once, this seems much easier to understand to me for newbies than all those new spells added. :dizzy:


Adding defensive withdrawal chance would also make fast units good at what they were good at in real life: hit-and-run tactics, and thus add a new fun combat strategy to the game. Offensive withdrawal chance doesn't achieve this effect sufficiently. Even if you hit a unit succesfully and have enough movement points left to move a tile away, in the next turn you're probably counterattacked anyway, even by slower units, because they can move double or triple as fast on their home turf. As a consequence the biggest use for units with withdrawal chance is merely to soften up units (with a high chance of dying...) and let them be finished off by a stronger unit. I want my horse archers to perform their true purpose!!!!! :mad: ;)

Fireballs and Summons etc should have an ability like:

Target cannot withdraw.

why can't you run from fireballs?

and isn't all their damage first strike damage anyways? don't first strikes happen before withdraws?

i can't see any reason you shouldn't be able to run from summons, and its not like summons are considered weak, they're overpowered if anything

why can't you run from fireballs?

and isn't all their damage first strike damage anyways? don't first strikes happen before withdraws?

i can't see any reason you shouldn't be able to run from summons, and its not like summons are considered weak, they're overpowered if anything

Fireballs dont have first strike damage. They do combat like every other unit. I made an SDK change so their combat isnt displayed like normal combat (so you dont have to sit there and watch a guy fight a fireball) but in reality its the same process.

ah, that seems a bit strange, any chance they could have some special combat method with the new changes you're able to make (like the stoneskin and such).

obviously they shouldn't be normal first strikes (since some units would gain immunity to them that wouldn't be intuitive), but a special one time damage would make sense.

ah, that seems a bit strange, any chance they could have some special combat method with the new changes you're able to make (like the stoneskin and such).

obviously they shouldn't be normal first strikes (since some units would gain immunity to them that wouldn't be intuitive), but a special one time damage would make sense.

I dont think it would be worth the programming effort and the risk of change because I doubt most players could tell the difference.

how about a promotion that you can get over and over again (that removes itself after gotten or perhaps after expended) to provide 1 time bonuses.

like, full heal, good morale (+25% strength for next fight), replenish 1 movement, replenish attack capability, planned attack (100% withdrawl rate on next attack), planned retreat (instant withdrawl next time attacked), instant fortify (automatic full 25% fortify defense bonus without the need for standard 5% build to 25%), hide (1 turn invibility)

basically some nice 1 time abilities for plain units that have gained all the promotions they can get, so that they can still get something and still get that nice feeling of use from getting more xp.

That's a great idea.

basically some nice 1 time abilities for plain units that have gained all the promotions they can get, so that they can still get something and still get that nice feeling of use from getting more xp.

I thought of this kind of thing a while ago, but yes this is exactly the right aplication for it.

Here's an idea for a promotion- Don't know what to call it... Defender or bodyguard or something. Basically the unit will take the battle for a weaker unit being targeted by the marksman ability. Of course it would have to be limited to maybe some type of national unit. don't want to make marksman completely useless, but give an option to defend against it.

Guardsman promotion is supposed to do that. Though I don't know if it works against marksman or only to protect strog attacking units from getting dogpiled.

I think, the way marksman works, guardsman will be the last unit attacked by assassains. (always first, but reversed by marksman.) I could be wrong.

I think that homeland and shield of faith should be improved, defender is bit underpowered to, say, spiritual or organized, and shield of faith could be stronger since it is T3 (T4? How do you call it?) spell.