Armageddon Spells:

+Armageddon: Apocalypse- Destroys 60% of the worlds units, causes war with the building civ and all other civs.
+Armageddon: Bane Divine- Turns all Disciple units into lowly prophets with no XP.
+Armageddon: Blight- Destroys all farms and plantations, has a chance to destroy land food bonus's, melt ice and turn plains into deserts.
+Armageddon: Blood of the Phoenix- Gives all units build in the city the Medic 1 promotion and grants all units in the civilization Immortality when it is built. (requires 2 Life?)
Armageddon: Celestial Realignment- requires 2 Metamagic
Armageddon: Eclipse- requires 2 Shadow
+Armageddon: Glory Everlasting- Destory's all demons. Gives all units created in the empire the Demon Slaying promotion.
Armageddon: Knell of Darkness- requires 2 Death
Armageddon: Gate to the Abyss- requires 2 Dimensional
Amrageddon: Hellstorm- requires 2 Fire
Armageddon: Hivemind- requires 2 Mind
Armageddon: Fimbulwinter
Armageddon: Natures Grasp- requires 2 Nature
Armageddon: Sovereign Rule- requires 2 Law
Armageddon: Godslayer- requires 2 Enchantment

Wonders:

+Altar of the Luonnotar- Blesses all units created in the empire
+Aquae Sucellus- Requires 1 Life mana, gives the regeneration promotion to units created in the city, boosts heal rate and area health, cures disease of units in the city
+Bazaar of Mammon- Doubles the amount of gold the city produces.
+Bone Palace- Carved from bones of an ancient dragon
+Catacomb Libralus- Acts as a library in each of the empires cities.
+Code of Junil- Provides 1 Law mana, boosts the spread of the Order. Can only be built by Great Prophets in the Order holy city.
+Crown of Akharien- Doubles the research output of the city.
Culture of Intolerance- The city cannot build non-native racial units but all units produced in the city gets a bonus against other races.
+Eternal Flame- Requires 1 Fire, provides 3 Fire
+Forbidden Palace- Acts as a government center (reduces maintenance costs)
+Form of the Titan- Requires a level 6 or higher unit, grants XP to any unit built in the wonders civilization.
+Genesis- Upgrades the terrain of the building civilization.
+Great Library
+Great Lighthouse
+Guild of Endeavors
+Hall of Kings
+Heroic Epic
+Infernal Grimoire- Provides a free tech, has a chance to summon a hostile demon.
+Mines of Gal-Dur- Provides 3 Iron, requires the Runes of Kilmorph state religion.
+National Epic
+Nexus- Requires 1 Dimensional, creates an obsidian gate in each of the civ's cities.
+Oracle- Provides a free tech.
+Pact of the Nilhorn- Grants the building civ 3 free hill giants.
+Prophecy of Ragnarok
+Purge the Unfaithful- Acts as an inquisition in all of the building civilizations cities.
+Pyramid
+Song of Autumn- Provides 1 Nature mana, boosts the spread of the Fellowship of Leaves. Can only be built by Great Prophets in the Leaves holy city.
+Soul Forge- Produces 1 Death mana and living units killed with the 1 tile radius are added to the cities production. (Loki)
+Stigmata on the Unborn- Provides 1 Entropy mana, boosts the spread of the Ashen Veil. Can only be built by Great Prophets in the Veil holy city.
+Syliven’s Perfect Lyre- Doubles the culture output of the city.
+Tablets of Bambur- Provides 1 Earth mana, boosts the spread of the Runes of Kilmorph. Can only be built by Great Prophets in the Runes holy city.
+Temple of Temporence
The Dragon’s Horde- Provides 3 gems bonus, 5 gold commerce and quality weapons to any unit built in the city.
+The Necronomicon- Provides 1 Water mana, boosts the spread of the Octopus Overlords. Can only be built by Great Prophets in the Overlords holy city.
+Tomb of Sucellus- Now empty, where Sucellus was resurrected, provides 1 Life mana.
+Tower of Complacency- Reduces productivity but gets rid of all unhappiness in the building city.
+Tower of Eyes- Grants the sentry promotion to any unit created in the city.
+Twisted Spire
+Winter Palace- Acts as a government center (reduces maintenance costs).
+Yggdrasil- Provides 3 Fruit of Yggdrasil bonus, requires the Fellowship of the Leaves state religion.

A wonder that ressurects the next hero in your civ that dies?

I think our first task is to rename Taj Majal, Sistine chapel, and Notre Dame.

I think our first task is to rename Taj Majal, Sistine chapel, and Notre Dame.

Im all for it, just give me the names.

I've been racking my brain comming up with new ways to implement blight and apocalypse that make them into events that progress over time, instead of insta-doom type spells that are uncounterable. Uncounterable things just aren't very fun for me. Having a chance to resist or mitigate gives more play options and is more fun, IMO.

blight

This could spawn a square of blight terrain randomly somewhere in the world. The blight terrain would have the same effects as fallout ( -3food, -3hammer, -3 gold). Give it a diseased, fungal look. Each turn (or, looking at how rapid the spread would be, every other turn would be better, or maybe every third turn after there are 64 squares or more), all blight squares in existance spawn another square in an adjacent tile. So the progression would be an exponential curve- 1,2,4,8,16,32,64,crap we're doomed. The squares could be cleansed, just like vanilla fallout, but you better catch it quick, or you are never going to get rid of it. Entire continents could be lost if every effort is not made to stop it. But at the same time, it can be stopped if the effort is made.

This way, there is something you can do about it, but it's going to take all your effort and resources for a while to do so.

Apocalypse

Every unit that has ever died in battle returns to life as a shade to fight out the final battle of all time. (not sure if it's possible to keep track of the number of unit deaths, some other method might work though). All civilizations declare war on all other civilizations, as the spirit of battle overwhelms all. All cities implement a draft, turning some citizens into recruits.

Apocalypse becomes an event that throws the game into high-gear this way.

Im all for it, just give me the names.

Taj Majal = Treasure Tomb
Sistine Chapel = Chapel of Spirits

If the Taj Mahal doesn't change image, I was thinking more along the lines of Ivory or Porcelain Palace, to go with the feel of the Taj's in-game look.

The Notre Dame looks an awful lot like the Temple of Time from Zelda 64 :D If you gave it that name, how many would get the reference, I wonder?

The Sistine Chapel gives +2 culture per specialist. I was thinking something along the lines of Hall of Kings, Hall of the Great or Hall of the Ancestors, to reflect that it impacts on specialists. Seen from the outside, the Chapel does not necessarily look very "Chapelly".

Also, the Hagia Sophia needs a new name. Guild of Workers? Shrine of Labour?

Ah, and of course the spiral minaret, which looks like a spiral staircase. Stairwell to the Gods?

How about excanging the models between those wonders you mentioned?

E.g. The Spiral minaret could also be a Stairwall from Heaven where Gods comes down to the living, or in this case one God. As this scenario would combine good with the free golden Age the Vanilla Taj gives.

I don't see why spiral minaret isn't a perfectly acceptable FfH name.

Just because the Spiral Minaret is an actual monument in the real world (Samarra in Iraq), and if we're changing the names of everything else to fantasy names, we may as well switch the whole set. I was thinking the Hanging Gardens, Great Library, Lighthouse and Parthenon should perhaps be redone as well.

The changes don't have to be great, I was thinking along the lines of Gardens of Healing (since it spreads health), Imperial Library, Divine Beacon and Grand Temple (merely off-the-top-of-my-head suggestions).

Not that the names don't work in a fantasy setting, just because they are actual real world names from real world places...

Change it to the Twisted Spire and you're good to go. But I don't really see a problem with Spiral Minaret in particular either.

Okay, I renamed them and left the ones alone that I thought were general enough to still be okay (Pyramids, Great Library, etc). Let me know what you think or if you tihnk other names are better.

They look good so far. Welcome back to teh internets!

They look good so far. Welcome back to teh internets!

It is good to be back online. It was one damn long flight but im all moved in and working again.

Hey Kael! Well installed in Old Foggy?

Acting on a creeping suspicion I, uhm, did some checking around for the Temple of Time from Zelda 64. Seems my memory is a bit rusty...:twitch:

http://www.htloz.net/archives/htloz/2001/zelda5/z5_pics/z5_032.jpg

Thanks for the thought Kael, and I suppose it sounds fantasyish enough anyway, but if someone has a better idea I won't be hurt :)

It gives a happiness bonus, so maybe something that reflects that. Altar of Joy or some such.
Or perhaps Vor Frue (Our Lady in old Norwegian). Looks suitably arcane...

Hey Kael! Well installed in Old Foggy?

They don't have snapple here!!! Send peach tea snapple!!!

Temple of Time is a perfectly cromulent name. Right now, it's slotted under Theocracy- which maybe made more sense for its old name. Though as long as it doesn't change function, it's staying in that general area.

No Snapple! Lol......I spent time in Kuwait, and they had snapple there with Arabic labels. Seriously. I've been to half a dozen countries, and they all had localized Snapple. I bet you'll find it eventually.

No Peach Snapple here in Norway, anyway. But that's to be expected, sustenance-wise we're barbarians. Don't worry, I'm sure there's a "foreign foods" store that sells Peach Snapple (at ridiculous prices).

I think that the eternal flame is a great idea. What if there was a wonder for each type of mana? I know that's a pattern, but it would be really cool. Should they still work if you lose the mana?

Maybe for enchantment you could get an "Enchanted City". Basically economic benefits for that city, but any enemy units in the radius have a chance of being converted.

I think that the eternal flame is a great idea. What if there was a wonder for each type of mana? I know that's a pattern, but it would be really cool. Should they still work if you lose the mana?

I do liek the wonders that require mana resources because they are only available to civs that start with the mana and those that convert mana nodes to that mana type. In general they
are almost civ specific wonders, but it is possible for another civ to convert a node and grab the wonder.

I do liek the wonders that require mana resources because they are only available to civs that start with the mana and those that convert mana nodes to that mana type. In general they
are almost civ specific wonders, but it is possible for another civ to convert a node and grab the wonder.

With this wonder grabbing, you keep the wonder if you lose the node, right?

On a different topic i think that a) all of the armegeddon spells should require the right node. b) ice age should start the quest that turns the illians into a big power.

With this wonder grabbing, you keep the wonder if you lose the node, right?

On a different topic i think that a) all of the armegeddon spells should require the right node. b) ice age should start the quest that turns the illians into a big power.

Yeap, you keep the wonder.

and I agree, the armageddon spells should require at least 1 mana, maybe several.

and I agree, the armageddon spells should require at least 1 mana, maybe several.

Would you like the amount of nodes to depend on the wonder? Also, maybe when building armegeddon spells your religion could count for an appropriate node (entropy unleashed easiest to build for the AV)

Would you like the amount of nodes to depend on the wonder? Also, maybe when building armegeddon spells your religion could count for an appropriate node (entropy unleashed easiest to build for the AV)

Or we could have the holy cities, or the holy city buildings (the ones the prophets build) produce a mana of the right type.

I had an idea for an improved Apocalypse wonder.

One of my favorite things from vanilla civ is the nuke animation. But nukes don't quite work in FfH, although apoc is the equivalent of nuking all cities in the game for cheap, with no SDI defense allowed.

Apocalypse, allows the creation of the Doombringer unit. These units, when detonated, create an explosion similar to a nuclear blast at their location, causing severe damage and destroying the unit. Completion of this wonder automatically closes all borders with all other civs.

This is balanced, no longer can you nuke all cities in the game easily and cheaply. You must declare war to do so much damage, as it should be. And it brings back the awesome nuke animation!

I like holy cities producing mana of their specific holy type with the holy building. It makes sure that if you founded a religion, that you can cast the religion's spells, even if you are unlucky with mana nodes.

Or we could have the holy cities, or the holy city buildings (the ones the prophets build) produce a mana of the right type.

Except that many wonders already require the holy city.

I like holy cities producing mana of their specific holy type with the holy building. It makes sure that if you founded a religion, that you can cast the religion's spells, even if you are unlucky with mana nodes.

This i like.

I like holy cities producing mana of their specific holy type with the holy building. It makes sure that if you founded a religion, that you can cast the religion's spells, even if you are unlucky with mana nodes.

I was thinking preists will be able to gain their spells regardless of the mana nodes (which are for arcane line). But I still like having the holy city buildings produce mana of the appropriate type. It would signify the civs close relation with that element by boosting all their mages.

IMO some of the holy buildings should produce multiple types of mana.
order-law
runes-earth and enchantment
fellowship-nature , life, and creation
OO-water and mind
AV-entropy and dimensional?

IMO some of the holy buildings should produce multiple types of mana.
order-law
runes-earth and enchantment
fellowship-nature , life, and creation
OO-water and mind
AV-entropy and dimensional?

Thats probably to powerful, and besides, what are the religions of those spheres going to produce when they come around.

Remember that disciple types are going to have access to different spheres of magic regardless of if the owning civ has access to the node or not. And mages can learn types of magic their civ doesnt control, they just have to pay for it on levelup.

Having spheres gives you free spells. So building the wonder in the Kilmorph holy city will allow all mages from that point on to be able to cast Wall of Stone for free (plus access to the wonders and untis that require earth, etc etc.).

No one else like/dislikes the apocalypse as doombringer nuke-like units idea?

No one else like/dislikes the apocalypse as doombringer nuke-like units idea?

I dont like it for one of the reason you do. The nuke animations is to recognizable. I think players will see it as our version of a nuke instead of a new feature.

Ahh well, it's one of the few things from vanilla that I miss. Sometimes it was nice to nuke the crap out of a civ that's been a pain in the arse a turn or two before a space-race victory. :nuke: The animation is very cool.

Perhaps the doombringer could be a unit that leaves hell terrain behind in its wake where-ever it goes. Now that would be a creepy thing to see headed your way.

But in any case, apoc and blight both would make me turn off armageddon when I play once the toggle is there, as they are very unfair and bug me too much. It's a shame, I feel, because I like the other armageddon spells, even wrath, for they are mostly balanced, possible to counter, and fun to play with.

Right now, apoc and blight seriously detract from the end-game for me. I hate having to go into the world-editor to remove cities that are working on them if I can't afford the sabotoge cost or cannot go to war. Blight does permanent un-repairable damage to your lands- you can't get the lost food resources back no matter how you micro your druids. Apoc removes half of your military, then throws you into war. (though the version of 1.0 I have makes it do nothing) I once lost my entire navy and all the units it was transporting.

Game engine: Congratulations! you've just lost half of your units and half of your cities' population!
Me: what did I do to win this fabulous prize?
Game engine: absolutely nothing, another civ you had a defensive pact with did it for you!
Me: awesome, thanks game engine! :crazyeye:

Apoc is better than blight though, except for lost hero units, you can recover from the damage at least. But it still bothers me.

Anyways, I've taken to beating up any financial civs I come across, since they're always the ones unleashing these two spells. It seems to work well, especially if I see Sable. He's been the one to unleash them 90% of the time. And he always signs defensive pacts with half the planet once he gets going, making beating him up early the only option.

Thats probably to powerful, and besides, what are the religions of those spheres going to produce when they come around.


Oh, well when you put it that way...

I think that defiler is going to leave behind hell terrain.

That's a bit powerfull for a regular unit even a national unit, doncha think?

I thought defilers were going to have the ability to degrade terrain as an action, not degrade it as a wake behind them. That kind of power should be limited to armageddon units, such as Meshabber and the like.

I thought defilers were going to have the ability to degrade terrain as an action, not degrade it as a wake behind them. That kind of power should be limited to armageddon units, such as Meshabber and the like.

Oh you just gave me a great idea. What if one of the armeggedon spells was that hordes of demons broke out of hell and had to be stopped. Whenever they went hell terrain would be left behind.

That could be a good replacement for apocalypse as well. Certainly very apocalyptic! As long as, if you manage to survive the invasion, you can clean up your lands later, it would be awesome.

That could be a good replacement for apocalypse as well. Certainly very apocalyptic! As long as, if you manage to survive the invasion, you can clean up your lands later, it would be awesome.

Exactly. Kinda what you said earlier. It'll take all of your resoruces to stop it, but it makes for a great war and a lot where only you remain.

Got an idea for another Armageddon spell. Originally I imagined this was how Entropy Unleashed was supposed to work, but it probably isn't:

The Void(suggestions for a better name would be appreciated):

Upon finishing The Void, the entire world starts a process of dissolving into nothingness(ever seen/read The Neverending Story? Like that). This process would start at the "edges" of the map. IE, if you imagine the world "rolled out" as a flat sheet. The city wherein the void has been would be the center of the map, and so the edges would slowly start dissolving. Imagining the world as a globe, it would start on the exact opposite side, as well as on the poles. Or perhaps just on the opposite side, I'm getting a little confused about the world's geometry.
It will turn a couple of squares into void tiles(completely black graphic, and impassable. Any units or cities on them will be destroyed. This would happen every few turns, moving inwards towards the city with The Void, eventually leaving its square as the sole remaining of the map.

Gameplay-wise, construction of The Void will trigger an epic struggle of trying to claim remaining land, with everyone fleeing the oncoming void. The builder will have to defend his lands against pretty much all other nations, who wishes to buy time before oblivion claims them, and hopefully to take the Void city(which could be razed to stop the void spread, leaving the remaining land untouched, or captured if one wishes to benefit from The Void to destroy other nations).

Got an idea for another Armageddon spell. Originally I imagined this was how Entropy Unleashed was supposed to work, but it probably isn't:

The Void(suggestions for a better name would be appreciated):

Upon finishing The Void, the entire world starts a process of dissolving into nothingness(ever seen/read The Neverending Story? Like that). This process would start at the "edges" of the map. IE, if you imagine the world "rolled out" as a flat sheet. The city wherein the void has been would be the center of the map, and so the edges would slowly start dissolving. Imagining the world as a globe, it would start on the exact opposite side, as well as on the poles. Or perhaps just on the opposite side, I'm getting a little confused about the world's geometry.
It will turn a couple of squares into void tiles(completely black graphic, and impassable. Any units or cities on them will be destroyed. This would happen every few turns, moving inwards towards the city with The Void, eventually leaving its square as the sole remaining of the map.

Gameplay-wise, construction of The Void will trigger an epic struggle of trying to claim remaining land, with everyone fleeing the oncoming void. The builder will have to defend his lands against pretty much all other nations, who wishes to buy time before oblivion claims them, and hopefully to take the Void city(which could be razed to stop the void spread, leaving the remaining land untouched, or captured if one wishes to benefit from The Void to destroy other nations).

That was the origional design for Entropy Unbound. It was pulled in favor of the Ice Age and Hell on Earth features which should accomplish the same effect in different ways. I guess I thought we didn't need a 3rd way to destroy the world and the other 2 methods seemed more interesting to me.

What does hell on earth do?

Also, why is typhoid mary still a wonder? It would be cooler to have it be a unit, and then when it was built the city that builkt it would get a "Typhoid Mary's Birthplace" building, giving two unhealthiness.

What does hell on earth do?

Also, why is typhoid mary still a wonder? It would be cooler to have it be a unit, and then when it was built the city that builkt it would get a "Typhoid Mary's Birthplace" building, giving two unhealthiness.

Its the thing we have talked abotu where the earth tiels start switching to hell tiles. We've talked about it in a few different forms.

And yeah, Typhoid Mary shouldn't be a wonder anymore, and I like your idea to slap the city that build her with the negatice happy building.

Got an idea for another Armageddon spell. Originally I imagined this was how Entropy Unleashed was supposed to work, but it probably isn't:




One major problem with these 'epic destroy the world' spells (besides the fact that there is no counter which makes them unfun and unbalanced) is that it's always the peacefull financial civs that do them in games where you are going for a non-military type victory. Those are the ones with the cash and research to get them done. They never happen when you are going for domination or conquest, the AI is kept too busy. But try to go for a cultural victory or a not yet included build type or time victory, and your always going to be dealing with these.

In other words, the odds of some nut AI trying to destroy the world is directly porportional to how peacefull you are playing! That's just crazy.

Edit: if you aren't going to change the blight or apocalypse mechanics, they should at least require the Veil holy city. That would stop non-evil civs from researching them, and give you a focus city to raze if you can't found the religion yourself.

I think that the tomb of sucellus should give +1 life mana. It is the place where he was ressurected, and should give some of his new power constantly.

I think that the tomb of sucellus should give +1 life mana. It is the place where he was ressurected, and should give some of his new power constantly.

Good point, I'll add it.

What if we had a wonder that allowed one of your cities to have both temple upgrades in it?
Something about tolerance?

The temple upgrades are all about specializing your civilization to a more focused theme. Having both would not only be less focused and less thematic, but many of the penalties and bonuses would cancel out, so i don't think it would be a good idea.

I know this sounds like a stupid question, but why are there only 15 armeggedon spells? There should be 15. If your problem is not enough ideas, all you'd need to do is post the missing spheres and we'll some up with ideas in a snap.

On the topic of armeggedon, i thin that open gate should have a 25% chance of summoning a barb demon when built.

I know this sounds like a stupid question, but why are there only 15 armeggedon spells? There should be 15. If your problem is not enough ideas, all you'd need to do is post the missing spheres and we'll some up with ideas in a snap.

So there are 15, and there should be 15, so what's the problem? :p

I think there are plenty, and that a few of the less balanced/usefull ones should be removed and/or replaced with new ones that are more balanced/usefull before we start adding more.

I know this sounds like a stupid question, but why are there only 15 armeggedon spells? There should be 15. If your problem is not enough ideas, all you'd need to do is post the missing spheres and we'll some up with ideas in a snap.

The 3 avatars are armageddon spells too, so that takes us to 18. So we have a few spheres that dont have armageddon spells, which isn't a huge issue.

My problem it that we still have another potentially useful 6 spheres, and the more armeggeddon spells the better IMO. Yes, don't worry, we will balance blgith and apocalypse.

Since I've never built this I figured I should ask....what is worth building about the Tower of Complacency? It seems like a waste of time and gold from it's strategy blurb.

Since I've never built this I figured I should ask....what is worth building about the Tower of Complacency? It seems like a waste of time and gold from it's strategy blurb.

Well no unhapiness. Just a small thing.

Well no unhapiness. Just a small thing.

In all cities or just the city it's built? That's the part I don't know. If just the one city then it's not a big deal IMO.

In all cities or just the city it's built? That's the part I don't know. If just the one city then it's not a big deal IMO.

Just the one city. But its a bigger thing than you think. Allows huge cities.

Added the Aquea Sucellus to the list. I was thinking for a while abotu giving infirmaries the ability to automatically remove disease from any units in the city. In the end I thought that would probably weaken disease to much so I made it into a wonder that does it 9and some other health releated stuff).

And I like the fact that the Tomb of Sucellus provides a Life mana and and the Aquae Sucellus requires one. Seems fitting.

What does the bold stuff mean?

What does the bold stuff mean?

Just marking the ones Ive gone over as I go through them.

And you'd be happy to hear I added your unit today. It will be in the version that comes out this weekend. He has a cool ability, he runs from every combat. As long as he has an empty tile he can flee into its impossible to kill him in combat. :D

Could he get some dimensional spells as well? *cough* escape *cough*.

Could he get some dimensional spells as well? *cough* escape *cough*.

:D As it is you have to surround him or corner him to kill him. If I gave him escape you couldn't even kill him then! He can cast Confusion, and Charm Person though.

The Balseraph Gypsy Wagon is in, it can camp in opponents cities and slowly drian their gold and culture away. Loki acts like a Gypsy Wagon but he doesn't have a lower limit to the amount of culture he can steal so he can cause a "culture implosion" and kill small cities without causing war.

Okay. Can he also drain their GP points? What if he could like accumulate GP points and then a GP would be born in loki's birthplace.

Purge of the Unfaithful should be blocked for Barbarians ;) They just built it in one of my games .... The Other Wonders are ok for me when built by barbs

Hmm, here is an idea for another apocalypse spell, maybe requiring chaos mana, or perhaps metamagic.
Power Surge or perhaps Manifest Magic
All Mana nodes are converted into the highest level summon creature that can be done using that sphere (i.e., elementals, demons, etc.) that would be controled by barbarians.

Hmm, here is an idea for another apocalypse spell, maybe requiring chaos mana, or perhaps metamagic.
Power Surge or perhaps Manifest Magic
All Mana nodes are converted into the highest level summon creature that can be done using that sphere (i.e., elementals, demons, etc.) that would be controled by barbarians.

(the following is a stream of consciousness post, if anyone is curious to see how my mind wanders as I consider an idea).

I wouldn't want to destroy the node, but an armageddon spells that dumped a bunch of mana appropriate barbarian units on every mana node would be kinda cool.

Lets see, it rewards players who dont have mana nodes or who have non-summoning mana nodes (body, spirit, mind, enchantment, dimensional). Its a rubber band effect (helps the small player against the big) and therefor winning players will be frustrated trying to block other players from doing this without doing it themselves to get it out of the way.

In concept it acts much like Wrath Unleashed (the Chaos armageddon spell) and for that reason it probably isn't worth making a 2nd armageddon spell.

But I still think there might be something here. I really like the idea of barbarian summons coming through mana nodes. Maybe as a penalty of some other effect. Hmm....

I going to pack this idea away for "Fire". We are looking at implementing an Armageddon counter in that phase and I think this might be a good effect to have start occuring if the Armageddon counter gets high.

Yeah, I agree very much with Kael on this one.

I was wondering if you had thought about how the Twisted Spire/Spiral Minaret is a little underpowered in FfH? The effect is the same as in vanilla civ but in vanilla you have temples, monasteries and cathedrals that all get the +1 so up to about +2 and 1/3 gold (on average) bonus per city. However in FfH you can only build temples so it caps at +1 gold per city. As it stands it is very very low on my wonder-building priorities. Have you considered making it +2 gold so its overall effect is more in line with the original? Am I missing something?

redradish

Yeah i agree with redradish on this one.

Or we could add the second religious buildings (Asylum and such) as state religion buildings that give gold with the spire.

A suggestion with Ice Age: Have it require 2 Air Mana to build. When created, starts chilling the map down in stages working from the poles in:

Jungle->Forest->Forest->Ice
Plains->Grass ->Tundra->Ice
Desert->Desert->Tundra->Ice

I don't know how hard this would be, but perhaps tiles within the city radii of civs with fire mana should be immune, or perhaps if you've got access to fire mana, the progression of the ice stops at Tundra in your boundaries.

Finally, being 25% Norwegian by ancestry, I think that 'Fimbulwinter' is a much cooler name for this Armeggedon Spell than 'Ice Age'. :D

EDIT: Ooh, and maybe as the ice advances, sea level drops? Don't know if that's possible.

Yeah, I've got to agree about Fimbulwinter. I can't believe i suggested ice age and didn't think fimbulwinter. Bad loki!

Name changed to Fimbulwinter, thanks AndrewDJ. And the changes as you expressed them (world cooling form the outside in) was what we planned for that wonder.

That sounds cool. ;)

IIRC FfH has the intention to let cities specialize in what kind of units they produce, by letting them all require some building.

I like that, but personally I think those wonders that give a free promotion to all units built in a city detracts from that. Because those wonders basically force you to build all your units in a single city to gain maximal benefit. Not very fun IMHO.

For that reason I'm wondering, would it be possible to let those wonders give a free promotion to all units, no matter in which one of your cities they're built? Or if that's not possible, perhaps something like the Smithy in the Ancient Mediterranean Mod: every unit which enters the city gains a certain promotion. Drawback of that would be though that the AI doesn't know how to handle it.

[...] Because those wonders basically force you to build all your units in a single city to gain maximal benefit. Not very fun IMHO.

For that reason I'm wondering, would it be possible to let those wonders give a free promotion to all units, no matter in which one of your cities they're built? Or if that's not possible, perhaps something like the Smithy in the Ancient Mediterranean Mod: every unit which enters the city gains a certain promotion.
I totally agree. If this was possible without destroying game balance, I'd greatly appreciate it. I also find it very annoying that these wonders centralize unit production so much. This only makes my capital an archer-and-melee-production city, whereas my other cities focus on mages, priests, settlers, navy and so on. Another effect of limiting the promotions to one city is that it is useless to have unit-enhancing wonders in multiple cities. So it doesn't only force the player to centralize unit production, but also the production of certain wonders.

but also the production of certain wonders
What actually is not a bad thing as it forces the player to specialize...

What actually is not a bad thing as it forces the player to specialize...
Well, actually it only forces you to build the unit-enhancing stuff you want to build in one city and all other stuff in all other cities. What I like about specialization is that you can choose which city you specialize in which way. In this case I rather feel that it takes away that choice. When I get to the first unit-enhancing wonder I must check the domestic advisor to find the most productive city and then this city will for all eternity be forced to build units that benefit from the free promotions. I don't see that there's any equally effective alternative, so the mechanic of these wonders limits my choices.

If the wonder effect was global, I could choose my cities' specialization more freely as additional unit-producing cities would improve my military. As it is, more of these cities can even make my military weaker, as you can only build a limited number of the most powerful units. If you build your Eidolons in a city without those wonders, you still can't have more than three, so you have three weaker Eidolons and a couple of barely useful macemen.

This may be caused partially by my game options, though. Due to my limited amount of RAM I play on rather small maps with space for about 3-6 cities for an average player. On those maps one very productive city with Heroic Epic is enough for building archers and melee. On larger maps or with less players this might be different.

One of the reason why i think it is a good thing is that i sympathize with the AI. Whenever i discuss an addition i first think about the AI. Why? Because a good competetive AI makes the game more fun. So i think not how to make it more easy for the player to dominate (this is what you seem to aim at) but how to improve the game without hindering the AI or even so that the AI actually gets advantage from the changes.

You of course want to be maximal efficent, but the AI can't be. So i like it if you are foreced in a kind of inefficency regarding such things. If your citie is concerned with building all the possible unit upgrading wonders it has less time to actually built units. So you have to spread a bit. The AI acutally has to spread a bit as it can not specialize as well as you do (forcing it to really specialize might work, but i fear it would do much more harm than than good as an human player can usually react to specific threats and problems whereas a AI has to react considering more global parameters). So the AI will be more on equal footing as when you are allowed to spread your wonders all over the empire (which additionally enhances your chance to get all of them).
So if a player wants to built the super unit he has to pay the price and stack every wonder in the same city. No one forces him to do it through. And a players unit usually will always be stronger then the AIs units as a human can use them much more focussed then the AI.

Maybe you misunderstood me a bit. My general aim isn't to make it easy for the player to dominate, but to allow more different efficient choices. My problem is not that I'm forced into some kind of inefficiency, but rather that I'm forced to employ certain strategies to avoid such inefficiency. As I said, on the maps I play it works to use one ultra-productive city for limited national units (I don't have to spread as you assumed), but I don't like being forced to do so because this is kind of automatic, not one of multiple options. I actually think it would benefit the AI to make those wonders working globally because they cannot specialize their production as much as I can. Therefore, if they build Altar of the Luonnatar, the wonder is 80% wasted, so I think the current system benefits the player more than the AI.

My problem: Choice is one of the things I like most about FhH: You get lots of meaningful choices between different things which are all efficient. You can choose between lots of civilizations which are not the same but nevertheless all useful. You can choose between building a strong economy in few cities, or build a strong military and go on a crusade early. You can choose between lots of different units which are also very different, but are all useful for something. You can choose whether you need one or multiple cities specialized on naval warfare, or whether you build adepts, priests or markets, or whether you build lots of cottages and cripple production locally for faster research.

With this wonder specialization thing I just mean that your choices are kind of limited because spreading out is not an option, and building multiple cities specialized on conventional units is also not efficient, that means one option to develop a city is useless in late game (I'm only talking about the limited national units). So it comes to the choice which enhancing wonders you want in your one city or whether you skip them all. But you have less strategical choices than you'd have if they worked globally. The way it is not it's a bit like in vanilla civ where you can often choose between multiple units, but the one with the most strength is the only useful option anyway.

However, this isn't too important for me. I just wrote this because I don't like being misunderstood. If you think it's better for the balancing to you keep it the way it's now, then that's fine; I have absolutely no experience in creating mods, so I'm sure you know better than I do. I just wanted to mention why I think it would be more fun if it was changed (imho: more choices = more fun).

I think that discussing these things is very important.
One question. If each of the wonders that give promotions (as i have not played the mod since weeks i do actually not even know how much of those wonders are in ;) ) would give them to all your units. How often would you decide not to build them compared to now?

And finally it is also a question of the power of the wonder. For altair of lunnator with its one time effect i think giving it to each new unit would be fine (I actually found it rather week the last time i played). FOr others it might be an entirely different thing.

I think that discussing these things is very important.
One question. If each of the wonders that give promotions (as i have not played the mod since weeks i do actually not even know how much of those wonders are in ;) ) would give them to all your units. How often would you decide not to build them compared to now?
Right now I just build them when I have time to do so, that means, when I'm at peace and consider my military strong enough to fend off any surprise attack. If I cannot afford to build wonders in my most productive city because I'm at war all the time I don't build them because, as I said, I don't consider them to be valuable for local unit production in a "normal" city. So right now, I consider the Tower of Eyes to be an average wonder and the Altar of the Luonnatar as something to build when my capital has nothing else to do.

As it's enough to have one unit with great vision range in a stack, I don't think a global effect would make much of a difference for the Tower of Eyes compared to the bonus it grants me now in land wars. If it works with water units, however, a global effect would be a distinct improvement. In that case I would invest some effort to get it, and always try to build it when I can spare the time in any large city.

If the effects were global, I'd rate the Tower of Eyes above-average in strength. I'd still prefer the Crown of Akarien and the Nexus over it, which I consider immensely powerful right now (I always try to get those two, no matter what it costs), but I think it would be better than the Catacomb Libralus and the Form of the Titan, which I both try to get when building them doesn't require too much effort.

The Altar of the Luonnatar, however, is something I rarely build. The first reason is that the bonus lasts only one combat, the second reason is that I'm not sure which units can be blessed at all (afaik it doesn't work on demonic units, and I usually use Veil or Overlords) and the third reason is that I can achieve the same effect with a spell in the late game (not sure whether this is still possible in Phase2, the game always crashed before I got Inquisitors). It can be neat for limited wars mid-game, though. I mean the kind of war where you grab a few cities and make peace. In that case your troops don't fight very often anyway and a one-time bonus is useful. So, if the effect was global, I'd build the altar with every religion for those small-scale wars if I either
1.) planned to start a quick war against one of my neighbors
2.) had spare production time and could not build economy buildings or one of the wonders above

Oh, and I can't write much about the Dragon's Hoard because I don't know what it does in 0.12. I think the Quality Weapons promotion is replaced by enchanted weapons at the moment. That would be a useless effect as human players can enchant weapons with adepts themselves, so I wouldn't care whether this was global or not. It would probably only make a difference for the AI which doesn't use magic very well yet. If the Quality Weapons are still left as a wonder effect, it would be very powerful, though, and would make the wonder very good for building elite troops. Then a global effect would make the Dragon's Hoard a very powerful wonder and might make getting the wonder too important.

I can definitly understand where oyu are coming form. In fact making these efects global will actually help the AI who doesnt take the wonders existence into effect when it builds units.

Here are the wonders that give free promotions:

Altar of the Luonnotar- Blessed
Aquae Succelus- Regeneration
Blood of the Phoenix- Medic I
Glory Everlasting- Demon Slaying
Tower of Eyes- Sentry I

Of these I could see switching Altar of the Luonnotar and Glory Everlasting to global effects. The other 3 would be to much of a power boost (in my opinion).

I will change the Altar and Glory and we will see how it works out.

Id like to pose a question regarding the armageddon spells... Does anyone else here feel that they are not as useful considering all the resourses you put into building them? I mean, since most of them effect all civilisations, including the civ that built them, it kinda doesnt make sense to do so in the first place. I think that the civilisation that builds it should recieve atleast some bonus or protection against it, why would you want to build bane divine if you have a lot of your own priests will get harmed by it?
Secondly i dont know if making the armageddon spells count as wonders is such a good idea, i mean, they are spells right? So i think that they should count as technologies that can only be acessed when you research armaggedon. As an added bonus the first civilisation to research armageddon should get a free tech, to get thing rolling, so to say, by giving that civilisation 1 spell for free, would be interesting to see how it would work out.
Now i dont know what exactly these spells would give when you research them, maybe each tech would give acess to a seperate armaggedon wonder but they would only cost one hammer since since all the production needed for the wonder would be converted to research instead. Or maybe they would allow you to build specific units, like Meshabre... but that is realy for you to decide, i only wish for all the spells to be balanced. As of now you need specific conditions for the building of Apocalypse and Blight to be worth while, and even then it can backfire, whereas building the Meshabre is always usefull and never backfires on you.

Just my 2 cents on the matter.

Well, actually it only forces you to build the unit-enhancing stuff you want to build in one city and all other stuff in all other cities. What I like about specialization is that you can choose which city you specialize in which way. In this case I rather feel that it takes away that choice. When I get to the first unit-enhancing wonder I must check the domestic advisor to find the most productive city and then this city will for all eternity be forced to build units that benefit from the free promotions. I don't see that there's any equally effective alternative, so the mechanic of these wonders limits my choices.
Maybe you misunderstood me a bit. My general aim isn't to make it easy for the player to dominate, but to allow more different efficient choices. My problem is not that I'm forced into some kind of inefficiency, but rather that I'm forced to employ certain strategies to avoid such inefficiency. As I said, on the maps I play it works to use one ultra-productive city for limited national units (I don't have to spread as you assumed), but I don't like being forced to do so because this is kind of automatic, not one of multiple options. I actually think it would benefit the AI to make those wonders working globally because they cannot specialize their production as much as I can. Therefore, if they build Altar of the Luonnatar, the wonder is 80% wasted, so I think the current system benefits the player more than the AI.

Couldn't say it better. :b:

Id like to pose a question regarding the armageddon spells... Does anyone else here feel that they are not as useful considering all the resourses you put into building them? I mean, since most of them effect all civilisations, including the civ that built them, it kinda doesnt make sense to do so in the first place. I think that the civilisation that builds it should recieve atleast some bonus or protection against it, why would you want to build bane divine if you have a lot of your own priests will get harmed by it?
Secondly i dont know if making the armageddon spells count as wonders is such a good idea, i mean, they are spells right? So i think that they should count as technologies that can only be acessed when you research armaggedon. As an added bonus the first civilisation to research armageddon should get a free tech, to get thing rolling, so to say, by giving that civilisation 1 spell for free, would be interesting to see how it would work out.
Now i dont know what exactly these spells would give when you research them, maybe each tech would give acess to a seperate armaggedon wonder but they would only cost one hammer since since all the production needed for the wonder would be converted to research instead. Or maybe they would allow you to build specific units, like Meshabre... but that is realy for you to decide, i only wish for all the spells to be balanced. As of now you need specific conditions for the building of Apocalypse and Blight to be worth while, and even then it can backfire, whereas building the Meshabre is always usefull and never backfires on you.

Just my 2 cents on the matter.

You're right. The whole Armageddon system will be reevaluated in "Fire" (the next phase).

It looks like the Warlords expansion will be bringing back the Great Wall as a wonder that creates a wall around your civ's cultural borders as of the time construction ends, and grants some sort of defensive bonus against units attacking across it.

It strikes me that this type of wonder might be useful/fun in Fall from Heaven. The Runes could use it as-is. Leaves might have Twisted Paths, where the unit trying to cross the barrier is confused and wanders away from the barrier (chance to cross based on strength?), or maybe Entangling Vines which hold units trying to cross in place. The Order could have Holy Wards which damage (or kill?) demonic and undead units trying to cross them. Overlords could have the Mists of Madness: something random, but probably bad, happens to any unit trying to cross the Mists. And the Ashen Veil could have (naturally) the Ashen Veil which damages any non-demon or non-undead attempting to cross.

I'm sure that the Warlords expansion will have other features that might be cool in FfH2, too.

There should be a wonder that works in the Elves favor. One like some of these end game wonders where instead of destroying half of all units or making the land spoiled (turns plains to desert)... but instead covers the world (or a percent of it) to forest.

Now that Dragon's Hoard is harder to get, how about having it provide a mithril and a gems? It still wouldn't be usable til learning mithril working of course, but dragon's are supposed to have a mithril cache stored up.

There should be a wonder that works in the Elves favor. One like some of these end game wonders where instead of destroying half of all units or making the land spoiled (turns plains to desert)... but instead covers the world (or a percent of it) to forest.

Well... Genesis?

There should be a wonder that works in the Elves favor. One like some of these end game wonders where instead of destroying half of all units or making the land spoiled (turns plains to desert)... but instead covers the world (or a percent of it) to forest.

Well good idea... but they need a name.
Te first thing i think about is a big central magic tree...

Yggdrasil!

Yggdrasil!

Ill get right on adding that. :D

In all seriousness the nature based armageddon spell is supposed to give all non-fellowship civ units a percentage chance each turn of getting rooted if they are in jungles or forests.

Leaves might have Twisted Paths, where the unit trying to cross the barrier is confused and wanders away from the barrier (chance to cross based on strength?), or maybe Entangling Vines which hold units trying to cross in place.

That sounds so much like Doriath... I love it! :)

What do you think about limiting Form of the Titan further so the level 6 unit must not be a Hero or other unit that gets 'free' xp?

What do you think about limiting Form of the Titan further so the level 6 unit must not be a Hero or other unit that gets 'free' xp?

I agree. So no vampires either?

I think this mod needs more end game wonders; there isnt much left in the end for industrial civs. Some ideas: a wonder who increase by 1 the limit of national units; a hogwart-like wonder who spawn mages every x turns :) ; a wonder who causes a golden age for everyone; etc. Compared to the number of techs, this mod has less W than other mods... Bad, cause i play industrial!

I think this mod needs more end game wonders; there isnt much left in the end for industrial civs. Some ideas: a wonder who increase by 1 the limit of national units; a hogwart-like wonder who spawn mages every x turns :) ; a wonder who causes a golden age for everyone; etc. Compared to the number of techs, this mod has less W than other mods... Bad, cause i play industrial!

Have you tried the armeggedon spells? They're wonders.

Should the Catacomb Libralus still place a Library in each city, or a Mage's Guild? The Civilopedia page says Mage's Guild, while the first post of this topic says Library.

I believe it was changed to mage guilds
librarys were probably too powerful, and some civs could get librarys that couldn't build them normally(clan of embers?), messed with kurioate settlements ect...

But in any case, apoc and blight both would make me turn off armageddon when I play once the toggle is there, as they are very unfair and bug me too much. It's a shame, I feel, because I like the other armageddon spells, even wrath, for they are mostly balanced, possible to counter, and fun to play with.

Right now, apoc and blight seriously detract from the end-game for me. I hate having to go into the world-editor to remove cities that are working on them if I can't afford the sabotoge cost or cannot go to war. Blight does permanent un-repairable damage to your lands- you can't get the lost food resources back no matter how you micro your druids. Apoc removes half of your military, then throws you into war. (though the version of 1.0 I have makes it do nothing) I once lost my entire navy and all the units it was transporting.

Game engine: Congratulations! you've just lost half of your units and half of your cities' population!
Me: what did I do to win this fabulous prize?
Game engine: absolutely nothing, another civ you had a defensive pact with did it for you!
Me: awesome, thanks game engine! :crazyeye:

Apoc is better than blight though, except for lost hero units, you can recover from the damage at least. But it still bothers me.

Anyways, I've taken to beating up any financial civs I come across, since they're always the ones unleashing these two spells. It seems to work well, especially if I see Sable. He's been the one to unleash them 90% of the time. And he always signs defensive pacts with half the planet once he gets going, making beating him up early the only option.

well I'm totally agree. Wrath Unleashed is very fun idea (of course not to the civ that meet the Avatar) and the most important that it makes sense, when you are behind a leader, build Wrath and pray that Avatar will wipe him out and will not come for you. But Apocalypse or Blight not so useful, and unfortunately not bring any fun in gameplay.

I do realize that there are several Armageddon spells already, so if you do not want another, I'll fully understand. If, on the other hand, you do, I have an idea for an Armageddon spell with a slightly unusual mechanic. The spell will be called 'Breaking the Seals' and will do... nothing. However, in addition to this spell, there will be several national wonders called the seals. You could for instance have 'The Seal of Fire' which requires fire mana to be built. It does nothing on its own, but if you have it and cast 'Breaking the Seals' it will turn all plains into deserts. Similarly, if you have 'The Seal of Life' and break it, all your units will gain the immortal promotion. This mechanic would allow players to customize their own Armageddon spell to suit the specific needs of the moment.

Small idea on the duplicate fire fire mana from eternal flames:

Upon completion all fire nodes are destroyed and can only be rebuilt when the city with eternal flames is razed. So there would be 3 fire mana left for the whole world - so the wonder becomes powerful because all nations that you don't trade your fire mana will need a extra promotion to get fireballs and meteors, the most effective spells in the game.

Good idea Frozen-Vomit, it would make the wonder a lot more worth building

I just visited stonehenge today, and I think that we just have to include something like that in FfH. Maybe a very early wonder that gives science and culture bonuses?

As long as you bring the stones from 2,000 miles away :P

I'm sure someting like this has already been proposed. But I got to thinking about Massada, the ancient Jewish hilltop fort, and the huge ramp the Romans built to get close enough to threaten the actual fort. The fort was so strong it took months to build the huge ramp needed to threaten it.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alansven.ohman/page8.html

In Civ terms both the superpowerful fort and the ramp used to siege it could be considered Wonders. Elaborate, elegant super-citadels are certanly part of the fantasy world (Minas Tirith) so maybe there's a place for one in FfH?

But how to build a 'Wonder' that it really a giant siege weapon? Well, maybe we (i.e. u) don't have to. The game already includes the Trojan Horse. It's a unique unit, so it can fill the bill.

Caer Decayshus +100% to 125% Defense, +8 to +10 :culture: +1 or +2 :gp: Great Commander, I do not know if it is codeable, but I really like the idea that this thing would reduce an attacking unit's chance to successfully Withdraw. If that's not codeable, perhaps it could simply be given the Malkim fireball tower effect. :hammers: cost, Stone/Marble bonus TBD. Perhaps requires Earth mana to build? There's all sorts of ways to balance out making one city a real mutha to assault.

The structure should have a strong :culture: effect, under the theory that one thing that will persuade your average rural dweller to swear fealty to your city, is the owndership of the finest fortification ever built. Quite the persuasive criterion, when the local Orcs set out to alieviate population pressures caused by yet another baby orc boom.

And to provide the sheet of paper to threaten this rock, perhaps the Trojan Horse can be tweaked a bit? Here I'm a bit short of specifics. Though if it were possible for the units inside the Horse to attack with a +City Assault bonus, that might work.

Like I said, a super-fort is about as obvious an idea as go can get, but what they hey. Any interest in such a thing?

Small idea on the duplicate fire fire mana from eternal flames:

Upon completion all fire nodes are destroyed and can only be rebuilt when the city with eternal flames is razed. So there would be 3 fire mana left for the whole world - so the wonder becomes powerful because all nations that you don't trade your fire mana will need a extra promotion to get fireballs and meteors, the most effective spells in the game.

Nice idea! :goodjob:

I just visited stonehenge today, and I think that we just have to include something like that in FfH. Maybe a very early wonder that gives science and culture bonuses?

How about gives 3 free sage specialists in the creating city?
-Qes

I'm sure someting like this has already been proposed. But I got to thinking about Massada, the ancient Jewish hilltop fort, and the huge ramp the Romans built to get close enough to threaten the actual fort. The fort was so strong it took months to build the huge ramp needed to threaten it.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alansven.ohman/page8.html

In Civ terms both the superpowerful fort and the ramp used to siege it could be considered Wonders. Elaborate, elegant super-citadels are certanly part of the fantasy world (Minas Tirith) so maybe there's a place for one in FfH?

But how to build a 'Wonder' that it really a giant siege weapon? Well, maybe we (i.e. u) don't have to. The game already includes the Trojan Horse. It's a unique unit, so it can fill the bill.

Caer Decayshus +100% to 125% Defense, +8 to +10 :culture: +1 or +2 :gp: Great Commander, I do not know if it is codeable, but I really like the idea that this thing would reduce an attacking unit's chance to successfully Withdraw. If that's not codeable, perhaps it could simply be given the Malkim fireball tower effect. :hammers: cost, Stone/Marble bonus TBD. Perhaps requires Earth mana to build? There's all sorts of ways to balance out making one city a real mutha to assault.

The structure should have a strong :culture: effect, under the theory that one thing that will persuade your average rural dweller to swear fealty to your city, is the owndership of the finest fortification ever built. Quite the persuasive criterion, when the local Orcs set out to alieviate population pressures caused by yet another baby orc boom.

And to provide the sheet of paper to threaten this rock, perhaps the Trojan Horse can be tweaked a bit? Here I'm a bit short of specifics. Though if it were possible for the units inside the Horse to attack with a +City Assault bonus, that might work.

Like I said, a super-fort is about as obvious an idea as go can get, but what they hey. Any interest in such a thing?

Or how about a "fort" wonder, that provides +500% against non-seige units. Therefore seige units would be a requirement. Maybe even protect against collateral-damage? Is it possible to code in somethign that would prevent collateral damage? I like this idea, if its a one-city wonder, and it should be explored.
-Qes

Or how about a "fort" wonder, that provides +500% against non-seige units. Therefore seige units would be a requirement. Maybe even protect against collateral-damage? Is it possible to code in somethign that would prevent collateral damage? I like this idea, if its a one-city wonder, and it should be explored.
-Qes

I think a fortification that limited colateral damage would be a terrific concept.

Though I still like the idea that for one city in the world at least, the guy with all the 85%-95% Withdrawal units will have to think twice or even three times before launching the standard softening-up cavalry charges. I've got nothing against cavalry charges. It's just that I am unaware of anything in the game that can counteract the Withdrawal promotion/tactic. So here's a chance to throw in a unique twist.

Now, the same sentiment applies to your colateral-damage limitation too. You'll need more than a couple tough units to lead the charge and break the best defenders. This could lead to some heap big bloody battles at that city tile. :evil:

Option: Make either or both options a buildable defense layer, like the existing Ring of Warding thing. Civs growing up next to the traditional horsemen peoples might be motivatexd to research a special defense for their cities, for example.

For the Wonder, just wap all the goodies into one enchilada. :)

Concerning a superfortress: I think it would be really cool if the wonder also spawned 2 - 3 super-defenders to man the fortress, similar to the runeguard (0 movement ). That way you now have a superfortress manned by an elite gaurd (who I might point out can be given a nifty name like "Defender of the ______"). That's just for flavor coolness though...

Concerning a superfortress: I think it would be really cool if the wonder also spawned 2 - 3 super-defenders to man the fortress, similar to the runeguard (0 movement ). That way you now have a superfortress manned by an elite gaurd (who I might point out can be given a nifty name like "Defender of the ______"). That's just for flavor coolness though...

That would certaily fit with the Massada inspiration. :)

I have just started a game with Cassiel. (Who could believe it would be so fun playing without religion....)

I`m just concerned about the happiness when you can`t have a state religion, and that a lot of civics gives :mad: citizens for religions that are not your state religion.

Is it possible to include a UW for the Grigori to counter this? For example it could be named "Rejection of the compact" (yes, I just re-read the description of the grigori and how cassiel left Dagda:D ) +2:) in each city, for instance. Other possible names from the top of my head ; "Challenging the Gods" or "Cassiels crusade".

Tech-requirement Philosophy?

How about gives 3 free sage specialists in the creating city?
-Qes
How about 1 free sage and 1 free engineer. Since stonehenge is both an engineering marvel and scientific. Two free specialists is what the great library gives, and stonehenge shouldn't exceed it.
Maybe also +8 culture and +2 great sage points.

What if that wonder could be built by any civ without a state religion, and banned them from getting one? If i wanted to play with agnostic lanun, then let me.
It would be availble midgame.

Caer Decayshus +100% to 125% Defense, +8 to +10 +1 or +2 Great Commander, I do not know if it is codeable, but I really like the idea that this thing would reduce an attacking unit's chance to successfully Withdraw. If that's not codeable, perhaps it could simply be given the Malkim fireball tower effect. cost, Stone/Marble bonus TBD. Perhaps requires Earth mana to build? There's all sorts of ways to balance out making one city a real mutha to assault.
I like the idea of requiring earth mana. Like, "no, let ME try a wall of stone!"

And one way to end withdrawl chance is to make it change the terrain to cost 4 movement points--then only commandos would have any mp left after attacking, and mp are required to withdraw.

How about 1 free sage and 1 free engineer. Since stonehenge is both an engineering marvel and scientific. Two free specialists is what the great library gives, and stonehenge shouldn't exceed it.
Maybe also +8 culture and +2 great sage points.

How about a free sage and a free prophet? While the engineer was perhaps necessary to GET the stones there, once it was built, it didnt produce engineering. Knowledge/religion was its purpose? We think?
-Qes

What if that wonder could be built by any civ without a state religion, and banned them from getting one? If i wanted to play with agnostic lanun, then let me.
It would be availble midgame.

That sounds quite cool. Could open up for some alternative strategies. Though, that wonder should give a lot of bonuses to compensate for the lack of religion. Maybe also some revolts if you have cities with religion on completion of the wonder, and a negative dip-relation "you are a forsaker of our god(s)" -2(?) relation.

I like the idea of requiring earth mana. Like, "no, let ME try a wall of stone!"

And one way to end withdrawl chance is to make it change the terrain to cost 4 movement points--then only commandos would have any mp left after attacking, and mp are required to withdraw.

The catch in requiring Earth mana is that players will soon start asking why Wonders X, Y, and Z don't also have mana node requirements. So unless other Wonders are planned to have mana requirements, ya probably don't want just 'Caer Decayshus' to require a mana type.

OTOH I guess you caould make Earth magic a bonus-to-production resource. Throw a few more mana-type bonuses out to other wonders. (e.g. Spirit helps high Culture things, like the Perfect Lyre. Or Law for the Winter Palace.)

Is there a way to allow a resource (magic or mundane) to give something other than a 100% bonus to construction? e.g. Could 'Caer Decayshus' be given a 25% production bonus for each Earth node owned by the realm? If you had 4 Earth sources, you'd get the full 100% bonus as is the case now for a single source. (e.g. Copper and Form of the Titan.) The same thing could be applied to mundane resources. Using our above example, say, +50% production on the Titan for each Copper tile owned (and remaining untraded.)

This isn't all that significant a change and I've no idea where to put it on the priority scheme (if at all). But it would assign some value to haveing more than one type of mundane resource. The game is moving to a state where multimple mana sources will play a role ... would the game benefit from creating a role for multiple mundane resources as well?

I don't know. Am just throwing out an idea. :)

That sounds quite cool. Could open up for some alternative strategies. Though, that wonder should give a lot of bonuses to compensate for the lack of religion. Maybe also some revolts if you have cities with religion on completion of the wonder, and a negative dip-relation "you are a forsaker of our god(s)" -2(?) relation.

How exactly would this differ from workking to give your realm the Free Religion civic?

I guess one way to look at such a Wonder would be as an almost certain bonus for the Grigori, if they are in that game. The Grigori would want to build it every time, since they are already agnostic. But more civilizations would not want it, so it would probably be available to the Grigori most times.
But that raises the question, would this Wonder go unbuilt in the majority of games played?

The catch in requiring Earth mana is that players will soon start asking why Wonders X, Y, and Z don't also have mana node requirements. So unless other Wonders are planned to have mana requirements, ya probably don't want just 'Caer Decayshus' to require a mana type.
Some do, now, and more will later, I believe. Aque Succellus (sp) requires life mana, blood of the phoenix, um, also life... Another one or two, I think.

Is there a way to allow a resource (magic or mundane) to give something other than a 100% bonus to construction? The issue isn't changing the bonus rate, I'm pretty sure that's easily done. Might be more difficult to do the per resouce, but it could be neat, on a few, not too many wonders.

Some do, now, and more will later, I believe. Aque Succellus (sp) requires life mana, blood of the phoenix, um, also life... Another one or two, I think.
We're working on more, not just the armegeddon spells.

new wonders, based on both a mana rescource and another, "real" rescource

the fortress, which gives a huge defense and collaterall damage reduction
(earth and stone)

the death charge (world unit) 1 use unit that can be used to attack.
the tile it attacks lose 50% hp(max-20) and reduces a cities base defense bonus to 0% (if it is used on a city) it also destroys the top defending unit
(fire and gunpowder)

the reversal of history?
all new units you produce gain +40% in tundra and ice tiles
randomly changes grassland to plains ,plains into tundra, in and around your cities, mostly in flat areas(less hills and forests)
(air and iron)

alcemical advantage
can only be built in a coastal citywater tiles(scaled by map size) nearby gain the acidic property and deal damage/degeneration to ships passing through, your ships gain +10% regeneration
(water and reagents)

What about a wonder that can only be built by sacrificing slaves to add resources to build it? E.g. Theatre of Horrors.

Could the randomly destructive style of projects give the civs that create them permanent happiness bonuses? I don't see the point of using them otherwise unless you are already on the downward slope. I'm sure everybody would respect their boss more if he/she were able to cast the world into darness.

new wonders, based on both a mana rescource and another, "real" rescource

the fortress, which gives a huge defense and collaterall damage reduction
(earth and stone)

the death charge (world unit) 1 use unit that can be used to attack.
the tile it attacks lose 50% hp(max-20) and reduces a cities base defense bonus to 0% (if it is used on a city) it also destroys the top defending unit
(fire and gunpowder)

the reversal of history?
all new units you produce gain +40% in tundra and ice tiles
randomly changes grassland to plains ,plains into tundra, in and around your cities, mostly in flat areas(less hills and forests)
(air and iron)

alcemical advantage
can only be built in a coastal citywater tiles(scaled by map size) nearby gain the acidic property and deal damage/degeneration to ships passing through, your ships gain +10% regeneration
(water and reagents)

I LIKE these ideas. They need adjustments for balance and the like, but its a genuinely flavorful and neat concept.

"Reversal of History" could be A) named better, and B) would/should imply some sort of economic bonus given to the civ for tundra squares. As normally even defensive bonuses dont make up for lack of production.

"Death Charge" while intersting, doesnt strike me as a partiucarly "fantastic" element. Maybe "Mechanical Dragon" This unit ignores city defense bonuses (i.e. target's in a city do not get bonuses from culture or promotions) Walls still add, as does terrain modifiers. The Mechanical Dragon causes a great deal of colateral damage, and if it dies, it explodes and does even more collateral damage (possible let it destroy buildings in the city?)

ADDS:

Wind Spire (Wonder)
Can only be built in a city with a peak in its radius. All units produced in this city may cross "impassible" terrain and gain water walking.
(requires Air and Mithril)

Sophia Gravitas (World Unit)
Has Summoning, Channeling and Sorcery III, but not I or II. May learn III level spells without the need for I or II level spells to be learned.
(Requires Metamagic and Reagents)

Lord's Opus (Wonder)
Farms Produce +1 Hammers In Aristocracy and +1 food in Serfdom, and +1 gold in Agriculture, Law-summons gain +1 Str. +2 Culture per specialist.
(Requires Law and Gold)

Cask of Endless Amontillado (Wonder)
Produces 3 Wine. +1 Happiness and +1 Health for wine. Units gain the "courage" promotion for free.
(Requires Dimensional and Wine)

Necropolis (Wonder)
Has a "value" equal to the population of the city it is built in. All units produced in this city gain that "value" in experiance upon creation. Mortal Units that die within the city's radius, produce one skeleton (non-summon) IN the city.
(Requires Death and Marble)

Voidman's Swtich (Wonder)
If city is conquered, it can only be razed, not captured, and all units within the cities radius (regardless of owner) are destroyed. All land in cities radius degrades one level if city is captured.
(Requires Entropy and Gems)

Titan Chronos (World Unit)
T3 or 4 unit. Melee. Whenever Chronos attacks a stack, all units in that stack are unable to move (movment reduced to 0) for one turn, they are also unable to heal) Has a high withdrawl chance.
(Requires Air or Mind? and Iron or Mithril?)

-Qes

completely unrelated to anything else (afaik): Before palaces where given the 3 mana/bonuses I intended to suggest that perhaps there be another building/wonder that provides the mana/bonus enabling a capturing civ to also have access to that mana/bonus. with there being 3 now, it would probably be a bit too overpowered, but I still feal the base of the idea deserves some consideration.

In vanilla civ, it always seemed that many of the leaders traites were more like traites of the people. I felt that conquering those people should give the conquerer similar benefits. Dealing with that could potentially get messy, but in FfH there are some things, like magical aptidude (via mana), that could have this kind of effect on a conquering civ. It it weren't too messy, it also be marvelous to allow some unique units to be buldable by a conquering civ.

If the dwarves can make and opperate cannon, and I conquered the dwarves, I would certainly put them to work building and opperating cannon for me. (this particular example might be a little too much to allow, but hopefully you get the idea.)

More Ideas:
Alantis Settler (World Unit):
Water unit that can found a city in Water tiles.
City built can only work water tiles, and gets 2h/1c/1f for each tile. Starts with lighthouse and harbor.

Endless Mirrage:
Each hostile unit in player's borders has a 2% chance each turn of being teleported outside player's borders. (The city they thought they were attacking was just a mirrage).

Soul Weavers:
Units built in the city have a 25% chance to get a promotion that gives the promotions of defeated enimies to the conquering unit even if the unit could not norrmaly recieve such promotion. The unit's level is adusted to represent this, although experence is not gained. This works in reverse too, if this unit is defeated the conquering unit gets their promotion. Only promotions that can be gotten by a level up are allowed.

Chaotic Judgement:
Unilateral decleration of war! (Everyone declares war on everyone else)
Building civilization recieves no matiance costs for 10 turns.
All have been found guilty and all must be punished.
Requires Chaos and Law mana nodes.

Aura of Forgivness:
All AI civs forgive past trangressions (e.g. raising a city, declaring war on them).

i like the idea of chaotic judgement as an apocalypse wonder

I had some ideas for powerful wonders that could be good or bad for a player at the same time. I even thought I might try to program them myself if there were interest from the FFH community.

Everflowing Spring - requires water mana and perhaps supplies a water mana once built as well.
Upon being built this wonder adds a river to the city tile. On each subsequent turn, until a body of water is reached, an additional portion of river will be added to the end of this magical river in a random direction OR one plot adjacent to the river will be turned into desert-flood plains. Once the river hits a body of water it stops growing in length, but it will convert all it's river adjacent tiles to floodplains eventually.

This wonder is powerful in that it adds fresh water to a city where there may be none and it adds the possibility of many floodplains for food...but at the same time it blows away tiles and possibly resources and it could possibly drown your city in unhealth.

Or....

North Winds, East Winds, South Winds, West Winds - requires air mana and must be in the appropriate 1/2 or 1/4 of the map to build. Perhaps supplies an air mana once built as well.
Only one of these may be built in any given city.
The effect is simple: units moving in the direction of the wind, say from west to east for the East Winds wonder, will not lose movement points while in the city radius. Units moving against the wind, say from east to west for the East winds wonder, will lose an addiional movement point for each plot they move.
Units moving perpendicular to the wind are not affected in any way.

These wonders would have an interesting effect of slowing all movement from one direction...but making instantanious movement possible in the other (at least the 5 city plots anyway). Since these wonders effect all units, including the owners, it is a mixed blessing to have them.

How about allowing a few wonders to change a players alignment, so Auric and Cassiel don't always stay evil and neutral?

Ok, on my way to work I was thinking to my self how to incorporate more of Terry Pratchetts work into FfH. I have added the wiki entry for The Nexus from one of his books [one of my fav quotes] What next?

I came up with an idea :) Let me present to you:

Unseen University

Requirements:
Strength of Will
Mage Guild

Effects:
+2 :gp: [Great Sage] +10 :culture:
+10% :science: in city it is build
Grands all your arcane units a free promotion at the time it is build
A small chance every turn that a Beast from the Other/Under Dimensions will spawn near the city [~15 :strength: composed out of random damage types{fire, ice, lightning, death, poison}, barb]


Wiki/Pedia text:

Old Tom was the single cracked bronze bell in the University bell tower. The clapper dropped out shortly after it was cast, but the bell still tolled out some tremendously sonorous silences every hour.

-- (Terry Pratchett, Eric)

[was thinking about the effect of nullifying the upkeep for all your arcane units but for a late wonder it would not matter that much]