Unit Combats

[tab]Adept
[tab]Animal
[tab]Archer
[tab]Beast
[tab]Disciple
[tab]Fire
[tab]Melee
[tab]Mounted
[tab]Naval
[tab]Recon
[tab]Siege
[tab]Water


Base Units:
+ = The unit is already in the mod
% = The final art is already in the mod

Animals
[tab]+%Bear
[tab]+%Hill Giant (skin and model by SeZereth)
[tab]+Giant Spider (skin by C.Roland, model by Chalid)
[tab]+%Lion
[tab]+%Panther
[tab]+%Skeleton (model and skin by C.Roland)
[tab]+%Tiger (skin by Supra)
[tab]+%Wolf


Tier 1

[tab]+%Settler
[tab]+%Starting Settler
[tab]+%Worker
[tab]+%Scout
[tab]+Dwarf Slave
[tab]+Elf Slave
[tab]+%Human Slave
[tab]+%Orc Slave (skin and model by Chalid)
[tab]+%Warrior

Tier 2

[tab]+%Acolyte (skin and model by Kael)- Disciple for the Order
[tab]+%Adept (skin and model by Chalid)
[tab]+%Archer
[tab]+%Axeman
[tab]+%Disciple of Leaves (skin and model by Kael)- Disciple for Fellowship of Leaves
[tab]+%Hunter (skin and model by SeZereth)
[tab]+%Horseman
[tab]+%Prophet
[tab]+%Savant (skin and model by Kael)- Disciple for the Ashen Veil
[tab]+%Thane of Kilmorph (skin and model by Kael)- Disciple for Runes of Kilmorph
[tab]+%The Drown (skin by Kael)
[tab]+%Zealot (skin and model by Kael)- Disciple for Octopus Overlords

Tier 3

[tab]+%Assassin (model by AlazkanAssassin)
[tab]+%Chariot
[tab]+%Confessor (skin and model by Kael)- Priest for the Order
[tab]+%Conjurer (skin by C.Roland)
[tab]+%Crossbowman
[tab]+%Crusader
[tab]+%Cultist (skin and model by Kael)- Priest for Octopus Overlords
[tab]+%Diseased Corpse (skin and model by C.Roland)
[tab]+%Horse Archer
[tab]+%Longbowman
[tab]+%Maceman
[tab]+%Mage
[tab]+Paramander
[tab]+%Pikeman
[tab]+%Priest of Leaves (skin and model by Kael)- Priest for Fellowship of Leaves
[tab]+%Ranger
[tab]+%Ritualist (skin and model by Kael)- Priest for the Ashen Veil
[tab]+%Stonewarden (skin and model by Kael)- Priest for Runes of Kilmorph
[tab]+%Stygian Guard (skin by Kael, model by White Rabbit)

Tier 4

[tab]+%Archmage (skin by Woodelf)
[tab]+%Arquebus
[tab]+%Beastmaster
[tab]+%Berserkers (skin by C.Roland)
[tab]+%Camel Archer
[tab]+%Summoner
[tab]+%Druid
[tab]+%Eidolon (skin by Kael)
[tab]+Flurry
[tab]+%Heavy Crossbowman
[tab]+High Priest
[tab]+%Immortal
[tab]+%Inquisitor
[tab]+%Knight
[tab]+%Marksman (skin and model by SeZereth)- Marksman promotion
[tab]+%Paladin (skin and model by SeZereth)
[tab]+%Shadow (skin and model by SeZereth)- Marksman promotion, spy abilities
[tab]+%Shield Wall
[tab]+%Sparatori
[tab]+%War Chariot
[tab]+%War Elephant

Misc Units

[tab]+%Beast of Agares (skin by Woodelf and C.Roland)
[tab]+%Catapult
[tab]+%Cannon
[tab]+%Royal Guard- requires the Hereditary Rule civic
[tab]+%Copper Golem (skin by Kael)
[tab]+%Mercenary
[tab]+%Werewolf, Ravenous (skin by C.Roland, model by White Rabbit)
[tab]+%Werewolf, Blooded (skin by C.Roland, model by White Rabbit)
[tab]+%Werewolf, Greater (skin by C.Roland, model by White Rabbit)

Great People:

[tab]+%Great Bard
[tab]+%Great Commander (skin by C.Roland)
[tab]+%Great Prophet
[tab]+%Great Sage
[tab]+%Great Merchant
[tab]+%Great Engineer

Naval Units:

[tab]+%Arcane Barge (skin by C.Roland)
[tab]+%Caravel
[tab]+%Dragonship
[tab]+%Frigate
[tab]+%Galley
[tab]+%Galleon
[tab]+Man O'War
[tab]+%Pirate (skin by Kael)
[tab]+%Queen of the Line
[tab]+%Trireme
[tab]+%Work Boat

Air Units:
[tab]+%Hawk (skin and model by Chalid)
[tab]+%Raven (skin and model by Chalid) (replaces Hawk for evil civs)

Resource Upgrade Units

Air Mana Units:
[tab]+%Air Elemental (skin and model by Chalid)

Chaos Mana Units:
[tab]+%Chaos Marauder (skin and model by SeZereth)
[tab]+%Pit Beast (skin and model by SeZereth)

Death Mana Units:
[tab]+%Lich (skin and model by Chalid)
[tab]+%Nightmare (skin by Kael)- starts with the Fear promotion
[tab]+%Skeleton (skin and model by SeZereth)
[tab]+%Wraith (skin and model by White Rabbit)- Enervates opponents

Earth Mana Units:
[tab]+Kikijub
[tab]+%Earth Elemental (skin and model by Chalid)

Fire Mana Units:
[tab]+%Fire Elemental (model by Kael)
[tab]+%Fireball (skin and model by Chalid)
[tab]+%Meteor (skin and Model by Chalid)
[tab]+%Sand Lion (skin by Chalid)- Can see invisible

Law Mana Units:
[tab]+Law Bringer
[tab]+%Host of the Einherjar (skin and model by C.Roland)

Life Mana Units:
[tab]+%Griffon (skin and model by White Rabbit)
[tab]+%Lifespark (skin and model by Kael)

Mind Mana Units:
[tab]+%Floating Eye (skin and model by Chalid)

Nature Mana Units:
[tab]+%Guardian Vines (skin and model by Chalid)
[tab]+%Treant (skin and model by SeZereth)

Water Mana Units:
[tab]+%Kraken (skin and model by Chalid)
[tab]Water Elemental

Civ Specific Units (UU's):

Amurites:

[tab]Amurite Adept
[tab]Amurite Archmage
[tab]+%Wizard (skin and model by White Rabbit) (replaces Mage)- Starts with a Spellstaff
[tab]+%Firebow (skin and model by White Rabbit) (replaces longbowman)- starts with Fire 1 and Sorcery 1 (Lunargent)

Balseraphs:

[tab]+%Acrobat (skin and model by Chalid) (replaces hunter)- withdrawal rate (Lunargent)
[tab]+%Balseraph Catapault (skin and model by Chalid) (replaces catapult)- Art change
[tab]+%Courtesan (skin and model by Chalid) (replaces shadow)
[tab]+%Gypsy Wagon (skin and model by Chalid)- travels in Rival territory, leeches money and culture from other civs cities, increases culture in its own civilizations cities
[tab]+%Harlequin (skin and model by Chalid) (replaces ranger)- can cast confusion
[tab]+%Merryman (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces warrior)
[tab]+%Parrot (skin and model by Chalid) (replaces Hawk)
[tab]+%Taskmaster (skin and model by Chalid) (replaces assassin)- no first strike, has a chance of converting defeated units into slaves

Bannor:

[tab]+Enforcer (replaces warrior)- bonus to city defense
[tab]+Guardsman (replaces axeman)- Reduces maintenance in cities it is stationed in, Loki
[tab]+Shieldbearer (replaces pikeman) (Nikis-Knight)

Calabim:

[tab]+%Blood Pet (skin and model by Chalid) (replaces the warrior)- If a Vampire consumes it the vampire regains 1 move and the ability to attack along with the normal benifit (Lunargent)
[tab]+%Moroi (skin by Kael) (replaces the axeman)- Can cast Burning Blood on himself.
[tab]+%Vampire (skin by C.Roland)- Starts with the Vampire promotion.
[tab]+%Vampire Lord (skin and model by McGlocklinMA) (replaces the immortal)- Starts with the Vampire promotion.

Clan of Embers:

[tab]+%Goblin (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces scout)- undercosted, can't upgrade to hunter
[tab]+%Lizardman (skin and model by C.Roland) (replaces hunter)
[tab]+%Lizardman Assassin (skin and model by C.Roland)
[tab]+Lizardman Beastmaster
[tab]+%Lizardman Druid (skin and model by C.Roland)
[tab]+Lizardman Ranger
[tab]+%Ogre (skin and model by Ploeperpengel) (replaces pikeman)
[tab]+%Ogre Warchief (skin and model by Ploeperpengel) (replaces Sparatori)
[tab]+Orc Archer
[tab]+%Orc Axeman (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces axeman)- cant upgrade to pikeman
[tab]+%Orc Berserker (skin by C.Roland, model by White Rabbit) (replaces berserker)
[tab]Orc Chariot (replaces chariot)
[tab]+Orc Immortal (replaces immortal)
[tab]+%Orc Spearman (skin by C.Roland, model by White Rabbit) (replaces warrior)
[tab]+%Pitch Wagon (model by White Rabbit) (replaces catapult)- increased strength (Loki)
[tab]+%Orc Shaman (skin and model by Chalid) (replaces mage)
[tab]+%Stoneskin Ogre (skin by Kael, model by White Rabbit) (replaces Shield Wall)
[tab]+Orc Witch Doctor (replaces adept)- doesn't have a building requirement, overcosted
[tab]+%Worg Rider (skin and model by White Rabbit) (replaces horseman)

Doviello:

[tab]+%Beastman (skin and model by Chalid) (replaces warrior)- Increased city attack
[tab]+%Battlemaster (model by White Rabbit) (replaces maceman)- can upgrade melee units in the field, doesnt have a building requirement, overcosted, +50% on tundra
[tab]Bear Rider (replaces knight)
[tab]+%Doviello Axeman (skin and model by Ploeperpengel)- doesnt have a building requirement, overcosted, +50% on tundra
[tab]+%Doviello Pikeman (skin and model by SeZereth)- doesnt have a building requirement, overcosted, +50% on tundra
[tab]+%Doviello War Elephant (skin and model by White Rabbit and SeZereth)
[tab]+%Shaman (skin and model by Chalid) (replaces mage)
[tab]+%Tuurngait (skin and model by Ploeperpengel) (replaces scout)
[tab]+Witch Doctor (replaces adept)- doesnt have a building requirement, overcosted

Elohim:

[tab]Elohim High Priest
[tab]+%Monk (skin and model by SeZereth)

Grigori:

[tab]+%Dragon Slayer (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces maceman)- starts with the dragon slaying and courage promotions
[tab]+Grigori Medic (Kerrang)- can cure disease
[tab]+%Grigori Phalanx (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces spartiatoi)
[tab]+%Grigori Pikeman (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces pikeman)
[tab]Luonnotar (replaces inquisitor)- bonus vs divine, immune to divine spells (Loki)
[tab]Witch Hunter- Bonus vs spellcasters

Hippus:

[tab]+%Brigand (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces Horse Archer)
[tab]+%Hippus Archer (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces archer)
[tab]+%Hippus Assassin (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces assassin)
[tab]+%Hippus Axeman (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces axeman)
[tab]+%Hippus Camel Archer (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces camel archer)
[tab]+%Hippus Chariot (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces chariot)
[tab]+%Hippus Crossbowman (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces crossbowman)
[tab]+%Hippus Hunter (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces hunter)
[tab]+%Hippus Longbowman (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces longbowman)
[tab]+%Hippus Pikeman (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces pikeman)
[tab]+%Hippus Scout (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces scout)
[tab]+%Hippus Settler (skin and model by White Rabbit) (replaces Settler)- increased move
[tab]+%Hippus War Chariot (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces War Chariot)
[tab]+%Hippus War Elephant (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces war elephant)
[tab]+%Hippus Warrior (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces warrior)
[tab]+Raider (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces horseman)- move 4 strength 4 (Lunargent)
[tab]+%Wind Knight (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces knight)- ignores terrain costs (Loki)

Infernal:

[tab]Cambion- Half-demon
[tab]+%Ash Bearer (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces axeman)
[tab]+%Balor (skin and model by Chalid) (replaces berserker)
[tab]+%Death Knight (skin by C.Roland) (replaces knight)
[tab]+%Executioner (skin and model by Pleoperpengal) (replaces assassin)
[tab]+%Graveborn (skin and model by Pleoperpengal) (replaces horseman)
[tab]+%Hellhound (skin by Woodelf) (replaces hunter)
[tab]+%Hunting Demon (skin by Woodelf, model by SeZereth) (replaces ranger) (Loki)
[tab]+%Imp (skin and model by Chalid) (replaces adept)
[tab]+%Infernal Lord (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces immortal)
[tab]+%Infernal Spearman (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces warrior)
[tab]+%Ruhin Archer (skin and model by Pleoperpengal) (replaces archer)
[tab]+%Sect of Flies (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces maceman)

Khazad:

[tab]Dwarven Arquebus (replaces arquebus)
[tab]Dwarven Assassin (replaces assassin)
[tab]Dwarven Battering Ram
[tab]+%Dwarven Berserkers (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces berserker)
[tab]Dwarven Cannon (replaces cannon)
[tab]+Dwarven Catapault (replaces catapault)
[tab]Dwarven Chariot (replaces chariot)
[tab]Dwarven Crossbowman (replaces crossbowman)
[tab]+%Dwarven Hammerfist (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces maceman)
[tab]Dwarven Heavy Chariot (replaces heavy chariot)
[tab]Dwarven Heavy Crossbowman (replaces heavy crossbowman)
[tab]Dwarven High Priest (replaces high priest)
[tab]Dwarven Horseman (replaces horseman)
[tab]Dwarven Hunter (replaces hunter)
[tab]Dwarven Monk (replaces monk)
[tab]Dwarven Paladin (replaces paladin)
[tab]Dwarven Phalynx (replaces spartiatoi)
[tab]Dwarven Shieldwall (replaces shieldwall)
[tab]Dwarven Stonechild (replaces immortal)
[tab]Dwarven Inquisitor (replaces inquisitor)
[tab]Dwarven Pikeman (replaces pikeman)
[tab]Dwarven Scout (replaces scout)
[tab]Dwarven Slinger (replaces archer)
[tab]Dwarven Settler (replaces settler)
[tab]+%Dwarven Soldier (skin by C.Roland) (replaces axeman)
[tab]Dwarven War Chariot (replace war chariot)
[tab]Dwarven Warrior (replaces warrior)
[tab]Dwarven Worker (replaces worker)

Kuriotates

[tab]Centaur (replaces horseman)
[tab]Centaur Archer (replaces horse archer)
[tab]Centaur Lancer (replaces knight)
[tab]Centaur Marksman (replaces camel archer)
[tab]Centaur Myrmidon (replace war chariot)
[tab]Centaur Warrior (replaces chariot)

Lanun:

[tab]+%Boarding Party (skin and model by SeZereth)- Melee unit that can attack ships in adjacent tiles, must fight cargoed units, if they win the battle they gain the ship (Loki)


Ljosalfar:

[tab]+Elven Adept (replaces adept)
[tab]+%Elven Archer (skin by C.Roland) (replaces archer)
[tab]+Elven Archmage (replaces archmage)
[tab]+%Elven Assassin (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces assassin)
[tab]+%Elven Beastmaster (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces beastmaster)
[tab]+Elven Conjurer (replaces conjurer)
[tab]Elven Druid (replaces druid)
[tab]+%Elven Flurry (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces flurry)
[tab]Elven Horse Archer (replaces horse archer)
[tab]+%Elven Horseman (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces horseman)
[tab]+%Elven Hunter (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces hunter)
[tab]+%Elven Immortal (skin and model by C.Roland) (replaces immortal)
[tab]+%Elven Longbowman (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces longbowman)
[tab]+%Elven Maceman (skin and Model by C.Roland) (replaces maceman)
[tab]+%Elven Mage (skin and model by Chalid) (replaces mage)
[tab]+%Elven Marksman (skin and model by SeZereth) (replace marksman)
[tab]+%Elven Paladin (skin and model by Ploeperpengel) (replace paladin)
[tab]+%Elven Phalanx (skin and model by Ploeperpengel) (replaces sparatoi)
[tab]+%Elven Pikeman (skin and model by Sezereth)
[tab]+%Elven Ranger (skin and model by Ploeperpengel) (replaces ranger)
[tab]+%Elven Rider (skin and model by C.Roland) (replaces knight)
[tab]+%Elven Scout (skin and model by SeZereth) (relaces scout)
[tab]Elven Settler (replaces settler)
[tab]+Elven Summoner (replaces summoner)
[tab]+%Elven Swordsman (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces axeman)
[tab]+%Elven Warrior (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces warrior)
[tab]Elven Worker (can't remove forests of jungle, can build improvements on top of forests and jungles, replaces worker)

Luchuirp

[tab]+Arcane Golem (replaces sparatori)- Summons Imps, requires stone or marble. (Loki)
[tab]+%Bone Golem (model and skin by C.Roland) (replaces immortal)- heals when living units in the same tile die or it kills a living unit, requires ivory
[tab]+Clockwork Golem (replaces berserker, requires iron, machinery tech and machinests shop)- powerful but has a chance of breaking down each turn and being unuseable for anything but defense
[tab]+%Iron Golem (skin by Kael) (replace maceman)- requires iron
[tab]+%Mud Golem (ugly skin by Kael) (replaces worker) (Loki)
[tab]+Nullstone Golem (replaces shieldwall)- Starts with the Magic Immune promotion, requires stone or marble
[tab]+Gargoyle (replaces pikeman)- Defensive bonus, requires stone or marble
[tab]+Wood Golem (replaces axeman)- vulnerable to fire


Malakim:

[tab]+%Lightbringer (skin and model by SeZereth and Chalid) (replaces prophet)- Prophet with sentry 1 (Loki), doesn't have a building requirement, overcosted
[tab]+%Malakim Chariot (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces chariot)
[tab]+%Malakim Immortal (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces immortal)
[tab]+%Malakim Knight (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces knight)
[tab]+%Malakim Maceman (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces maceman)
[tab]+%Malakim Mage (skin and model by White Rabbit) (replaces mage)
[tab]+%Malakim Pikeman (skin and model by SeZereth) (replaces pikeman)
[tab]+%Malakim Swordsman (skin by SeZereth) (replaces axeman)

Mercurians:

Sheaim:

[tab]+%Eater of Dreams (skin and model by Chalid) (replaces summoner)- Sacrifice ability (can sacrifice population to regain the ability to cast)
[tab]+%Pyre Zombie (skin and model by C.Roland)- Explodes when killed.
[tab]Sheaim Conjurer

Svartalfar:

[tab]Dark Elf Assassin (replaces assassin)- Has the marksman ability

Sidar:

[tab]The Hidden
[tab]Shade (replaces assassin)- Invisible

Ghost Children- Spirits of the children sacrificed to Mammon. Denizens of hell?

Unit that steals promotions from units it defeats? (Psychorg) Corlindale suggests we could balance this by only allowing the unit to hold a certain number of promotions at once.

Unit whose iCombat raises a little each time it wins a combat instead of through promotions (bebematos). Would require a saveable icombat rating on units.

"Slivers"- units that dont gain levels but have the abilities of all other "sliver" units. (bebematos)

Unit Combats
Got Giants cancelled out as unique combat class?
And some kind of air unit_comabt will be needed, i think, as for sure there will be air units that are handled similar to the gunship.

Undead and demon might be combined but that is a question of magic theory ...

Unit Combats
Got Giants cancelled out as unique combat class?
And some kind of air unit_comabt will be needed, i think, as for sure there will be air units that are handled similar to the gunship.

Undead and demon might be combined but that is a question of magic theory ...

I combined them both in phase 1 just because i didnt have enough to justify the 2 unti combats. Im hoping we will have enough in phase 2 to justify it. And your right, I forgot giants and birds.

Pirates- take gold when they defeat a ship adding the gold amount to their cargo. When the ship reachs a home city the cargo is emptied and the owning civ gains that much gold.


1. Nice idea. Maybe they could also carry a raider, which got huge amoutns of gold from pillaging and conquering, but the gold wasn''t put into your treasury until you got it to a city.

Eater of Dreams- Sacrifice ability (can sacrifice population to regain the ability to cast)

I like that and find it disturbing at the same time! Would they also be able to do the same with slaves? Maybe they'd need a building/small Wonder called slave breeding quarters so they could gain a slave in x number of turns.

Eater of Dreams- Sacrifice ability (can sacrifice population to regain the ability to cast)

That should cause temporary unhappiness and unhealthiness in the city, as well as give some great person Demon Type points.

I think you need way, way more creature types.
Avatar, Angel, Spirit, Golem.

Then all of the things that you find in the wilderness and fight. ie: Dragons.

Finally, the naval stuff should be more diverse. Instead of just those untis i think that you should break the naval system into something just as complex as the land system.
ie: Different ship types, different tiers, etc. Similar to land in format, but very different in playing.

I think a werewolf type would also be cool.

We need Ents, Pixies, and Nymphs. All sort of Ancient Forest creatures. Satyrs, Hydras, Chimeras, and more Nymphs. ;)

We need Ents, Pixies, and Nymphs. All sort of Ancient Forest creatures. Satyrs, Hydras, Chimeras, and more Nymphs. ;)

I was thinking to include those under the other stuff you fight in the wild like dragons.
Yes, twisted mermaids as well.

Twisted Mermaid = :drool:

I imagine they could be a Siren. And we need Succubi and all sorts of evil, sultry, alluring female creatures!

Twisted Mermaid = :drool:

I imagine they could be a Siren. And we need Succubi and all sorts of evil, sultry, alluring female creatures!

Ill be in charge of searching the internet for appropriate art. :D

Ill be in charge of searching the internet for appropriate art. :D

I assume some of us already have it archived away....:mischief:

Ghost Children- spirits of the children sacrificed to Mammon. Denizens of hell?

I like the flavor of this, but what special abilities would they get?
type would be spirit obviously

Another type needed would probably be something like Shade.
you need something in hell other than demons, and shades have lots of cool flavor. May idea was that they could be sort of the mirror of the recon units, and there wouldn't be any promotions against them.

Here's some Angel units:
--All angels start with untouched soul
--weak against archer units
--+50% agaisnt demons
--can fly
--an angel slaying promotion is available to disciples, demons, werewolves, archers, dwarves, and ships
--Starts with medic I
--Angels can get these promotions: drill, any slaying (including angel), shock I and II, Charge I and II, magic resistance of all types, the combat promotions, any medic promotions, march, and mobility promotions, and blitz.
1. Angel of Law (good guy, summonable by law spells)
2. Angel of Death (bad guy, summonably by death spells)
3. Fury Angel (good guy, buildable by the order, can use fire magic and given in quests sometimes)
4. Guardian Angel (2 of these guys start at every entrance to hell. They can use spirit magic and are immobile. barb untis, but maybe summonable by spirit spells)
5. Great Angel (a great person with points given by religious buildings. High powered, and can build any religious building for the state religion)
6. Fallen Angel (whenever a good angel dies there is a small chance that he gets sent down to hell instead and becomes a barb angel with medium strength and the same promotions.)
7. **Some angel name** (a hero angel given as a reward for a quest--destroying the demon civilization in hell--has the heroic promotion, and whenever he kills a unit a random divine spell is cast, based on the religion of the owner)

Here's some Shade type units:
--only angels, disciples, and avatars can get the shade slaying promotion
--Shades begin with untouched soul
--Ignore all movement costs
--Ignore city defense bonuses
--Shades are immune to disease
--Promotions available: all combat, shock I-II, Cover I-II, March, Commando, All mobility
1. Minor Shade (found in hell, low strength barb)
2. Twisted Dream (found in hell, medium strength barb, mind mage)
3. Nightmare (see chaos summoning spells, also found in hell)
4. Hell Shade (high strength, found in hell, first shade that can go to fire part of hell)
5. Shade (once hell has been opened up by the non-demon civ, these shades spawn like barbs in the normal world. Medium Strength)
6. Death Shade (A high strength shade found in all parts of hell that can do death magic, and carries disease)

Eater of Dreams- Sacrifice ability (can sacrifice population to regain the ability to cast)
I agree with the others, this is a cool unit. Were you thinking that every turn he starts with the ability to cast, and then can sacrifice to be allowed to cast again? Because I thought of a way to make this unit even darker. In order to be allowed to cast at all, he HAS to sacrifice population. You could reserve some of the most powerful (if not THE most powerful) and desirable dark spells for this unit, to force the player to make the trade-off.

I agree with the others, this is a cool unit. Were you thinking that every turn he starts with the ability to cast, and then can sacrifice to be allowed to cast again? Because I thought of a way to make this unit even darker. In order to be allowed to cast at all, he HAS to sacrifice population. You could reserve some of the most powerful (if not THE most powerful) and desirable dark spells for this unit, to force the player to make the trade-off.

I don't liek this because then he can't cast outside of a city.

Maybe his second cast would be twice as powerful as his first one.

Good point! I suppose he could sacrifice units in his stack to power his abilities? (Yes, I do really fancy the idea of sacrificing weak units for profit. It's wonderfully draconian) Otherwise, if he has a high movement rate, it would not be such an impediment. After all, this unit is superhuman:)

Good point! I suppose he could sacrifice units in his stack to power his abilities? (Yes, I do really fancy the idea of sacrificing weak units for profit. It's wonderfully draconian) Otherwise, if he has a high movement rate, it would not be such an impediment. After all, this unit is superhuman:)

maybe for his second casting he could cast any divine spell, not just his normal one. A city defended by him would be incredibly hard to capture.

I think the sacrificing in a stack is for the vampires personally.

Here's some Shade type units:

Do any of you remember the Mind Worms from Alpha Centauri? When fighting mind worms, a completely different system from regular combat was used, called psi combat. For this, the units actual combat strength would be irrelevant - only it's moral counter mattered, because to defeat mind worms it needed to overcome the fear they inspired.
I think it could be nice to have something similar for the shade type units - shades would not fight normally, but instead strive to drive the enemy insane by fear, and then easily kill it. Thus, in combat against shades, even the strongest "raw power" kind of units would succumb, while a weak, but disciplined warrior would prosper.
Civ 4 does not have an actual moral counter, but perhaps a units level could be said to represent how disciplined it is - it would also fit well with heroes being the ones least touched by fear. And of course there could be promotions against shades, as mentioned in the other post.

Mental promotions sound awesome. Saves versus mind control or fear, are they possible in Python?

Mmmm... Mindworms... I loved those slimy little monsters, I kept converting them :)

This might not be exactly an Unit proposal, but as we can have only three of every kind of national units each of them should be named. At the time the unit is build (or better upgraded) it should get a name based on the building city and an integer.
So the first Shield Wall you upgraded in Athingar would be named Athingards Shieldwall I and so forth. This might not be to complicated to code with phyton but would add some more flavour to the national units and somehow point out that these guys are some kind of special force.

This might not be exactly an Unit proposal, but as we can have only three of every kind of national units each of them should be named. At the time the unit is build (or better upgraded) it should get a name based on the building city and an integer.
So the first Shield Wall you upgraded in Athingar would be named Athingards Shieldwall I and so forth. This might not be to complicated to code with phyton but would add some more flavour to the national units and somehow point out that these guys are some kind of special force.

Ohh. Love this. Maybe also give them a 5% bonus in that city. Not large, but maybe sometimes battle turning. Small enough that the Ai can ignore it without being heavily disadvantaged.

I totally agree. Having actual unit names would be wicked! Although IMHO we should consider doing it to every unit built, if we can.

The tiny home defense bonus would be cool too, but probably harder to do. While we're on stuff that're cool, but hard to do: unit standards, at least for national units.

This might not be exactly an Unit proposal, but as we can have only three of every kind of national units each of them should be named. At the time the unit is build (or better upgraded) it should get a name based on the building city and an integer.
So the first Shield Wall you upgraded in Athingar would be named Athingards Shieldwall I and so forth. This might not be to complicated to code with phyton but would add some more flavour to the national units and somehow point out that these guys are some kind of special force.

This isn't to hard to do either on national or all units. Adding the defence bonus isn't to hard, but will require a check in onMove. I tend to be very cautious about this, because it isn't a big deal for other mods to add a few checks in these functions, totaled they aren't much. But FfH is so big that we have to be more careful about our processor use because even though you cant feel 10-20 additional checks in common functions, once you get up to a few hundred it becomes noticable.

So I guess my instinct is that adding the names is cool. Although I like the idea of the home city bonus, I dont think its worth the cpu usage. What do you guys think?

I tend to agree with chalid that even though this would be cool on all units, it gives a nice special touch to the National Units that makes me want to reserve it just for them.

The only two ghost like units currently speced in phase 2 are Ghost Children, which are the souls of children that have been sacrificed to Mammon, and exist on the Hell map. The other is the Wraith unit which is created by a necromancy spell.

I like the idea to have ghosts haunt an area and the possess ability. We hadn't considered either of those options. Let me think about it.

I think another good use for ghosts would be with my modified apocalypse idea. Defeated units would come back as ghosts or specters to fight the last war.

Okay, big question. Should a racial unit be its race type or its unit type? So would an Elven Ranger be an elf or a ranger? Is a Dwarven Crossbowman a Dwarf or an archer?

And yes, both would be cool, but right now its either/or.

I think another good use for ghosts would be with my modified apocalypse idea. Defeated units would come back as ghosts or specters to fight the last war.

Thats what Knell of Darkness is supposed to do if I can ever get it to work.

Okay, big question. Should a racial unit be its race type or its unit type? So would an Elven Ranger be an elf or a ranger? Is a Dwarven Crossbowman a Dwarf or an archer?

And yes, both would be cool, but right now its either/or.

I vote Racial, but I can see where that's going to leave the glass half empty in other aspects. :(

How hard would it be to add new classes or unit types that took all of those combos into account? So UNITCOMBAT_ELFRANGER would be different than an UNITCOMBAT_ELFSWORDSMAN. Lots of work, but they would be different.

The only two ghost like units currently speced in phase 2 are Ghost Children, which are the souls of children that have been sacrificed to Mammon, and exist on the Hell map. The other is the Wraith unit which is created by a necromancy spell.

I like the idea to have ghosts haunt an area and the possess ability. We hadn't considered either of those options. Let me think about it.

You see, this is where your mod making idealogy has a problem. Instead of taking away a potentially cool unit type, we should simply has in enough spirits/shades to make it work.

I vote Racial, but I can see where that's going to leave the glass half empty in other aspects. :(

How hard would it be to add new classes or unit types that took all of those combos into account? So UNITCOMBAT_ELFRANGER would be different than an UNITCOMBAT_ELFSWORDSMAN. Lots of work, but they would be different.

You mean have almost every unit be its own class? (we can add in human slaying promotions)

That would be uber cool.

You mean have almost every unit be its own class? (we can add in human slaying promotions)

That would be uber cool.

Well if by class you mean UNITCOMBAT then yes, I guess that's what I mean. It would be Uber cool to play, but whoever would be doing the XML would be cursing loudly! For every promotion against a race you'd have to add in every unit. Hell, for every COMBAT1, 2, ect you'd have to add in every UNITCOMBAT class. That would be a HUGE XML file by itself, unless there's an easy way to do this that I'm missing. I suppose you could cut/paste the promotions after adding in the UNITCOMBAT values for similar ones. It would, however, remove the problems of choosing "is it an elf or is it a ranger" discussions. :D

Well if by class you mean UNITCOMBAT then yes, I guess that's what I mean. It would be Uber cool to play, but whoever would be doing the XML would be cursing loudly! For every promotion against a race you'd have to add in every unit. Hell, for every COMBAT1, 2, ect you'd have to add in every UNITCOMBAT class. That would be a HUGE XML file by itself, unless there's an easy way to do this that I'm missing. I suppose you could cut/paste the promotions after adding in the UNITCOMBAT values for similar ones. It would, however, remove the problems of choosing "is it an elf or is it a ranger" discussions. :D

Combat I,II you wouldn't have to add in every race, you'd just have to say +20% strength in general. It removes the disscusssions as you say.
It wouldn't really be too hard if you can copy/paste. First you write up a list of elven units, then you add unitcombat in front of them, and whenever you need to give promotions against elven units you just copy that list in. You would also do a list like this for archers, which would include elven archers. You copy that list in for each anti-archer promotion.

Edit: If anyone can tell me how, I'd be willing to do some of the XML.

Combat I,II you wouldn't have to add in every race, you'd just have to say +20% strength in general. It removes the disscusssions as you say.
It wouldn't really be too hard if you can copy/paste. First you write up a list of elven units, then you add unitcombat in front of them, and whenever you need to give promotions against elven units you just copy that list in. You would also do a list like this for archers, which would include elven archers. You copy that list in for each anti-archer promotion.

Edit: If anyone can tell me how, I'd be willing to do some of the XML.

I've done plenty of XML and can actually do that at light times at work. ;) With XML Marker, which I had never used before, it's easy as pie.

If everyone things this massive undertaking worth doing I'd take a crack at some of it. That's a lot of UNITCOMBAT, but a lot more specialized gameplay which would be great!

Well if by class you mean UNITCOMBAT then yes, I guess that's what I mean. It would be Uber cool to play, but whoever would be doing the XML would be cursing loudly! For every promotion against a race you'd have to add in every unit. Hell, for every COMBAT1, 2, ect you'd have to add in every UNITCOMBAT class. That would be a HUGE XML file by itself, unless there's an easy way to do this that I'm missing. I suppose you could cut/paste the promotions after adding in the UNITCOMBAT values for similar ones. It would, however, remove the problems of choosing "is it an elf or is it a ranger" discussions. :D

It would offer a lot of granular control but include so many unitcombats that it would be unmanageable. The biggest problem would be in being unable to give bonus's against classes of units since effectivly classes of units wouldn't work anymore (nevermind what it would do to my python functions that make sure the unit is a valid unitcombat before actions are taken).

Unitcombats are groups of units, Unitclass is a specific unit, Unittype is a flavor of that that unitclass (no two unittypes share a unitclass in phase 1 but they will in phase 2).

Im leaning toward making an elven horseman an elf too (precident was set with the elven archers anyway). What that means is that almost the entire elven civs units will be vulnerable to the same promotion. Making Elf Slaying and Dwarf Slaying very useful. Not that thats a bad thing, I see it as a nice weakness for those civs, they just dont have the diversity that human civs do, which is fitting.

Too bad there is no easy way to combo classes then. Will even the SDK make this possible or is it just too Grande of a scheme?

Too bad there is no easy way to combo classes then. Will even the SDK make this possible or is it just too Grande of a scheme?

Its possible but you would have to change all the checks for unitcombats to go look for more values. There is an inherent difference in the way you deal with a single and multivalued attributes from a database perspective. It probably isn't worth the work it would take to make this possible.

It should be possible, but as Kael said, it would take a lot of restructuring - everywhere unitcombats are checked, you'd have to change it to check all of the possibilities and figure out exactly how each should work.

I think the best way is to have some of the units be racial, and some of them not. You simply have to go through them one by one.

The dwarven Stone Golem UU makes no sense as the dwarf subtype, for example. An elven mounted unit would probably work better as a mounted subtype, but the various elven archer types work better as elves.

Another possibility is to look into what makes the anti-racial promotion work in the first place. Is it some enchantment? is it a certain type of training based upon how they fight? Is it possible to change a unit's type based upon what terrain they are in? For example-> Elven Marksman is elvish in the woods, but a regular Marksman anywhere else, because the anti-elvish combat promotion is a study of the specific way the elves use the forest to their advantage and a specific counter to those tecniques.

Another possibility is to get rid of the elven and dwarf slwaying promotions, and make the units all their regular type. Personally, I could never see their logical justification. An elven horseman is going to fight very differently than an elven archer. Consider this- the computer never goes any other path than combat1-combat2-combat3, etc. The difference in combat should come from their various special abilities.

Bannor(Loki)

Enforcers: Warrior replacements that reduce maintenance in cities they are stationed in. +50% versus barbarians.
Cavalry of Law: Horseman replacement with the same abilities as enforcer. +1 movement on roads.

Malakim(Loki)

Desert Nomad:
+100% on desert. Chariot replacement. Double movement on desert.
Glowing Golem:
Golem type with bonuses against undead, demons, and shades. Requires sun altar but no metals.

Lanun

Worker Boat.
This work boat can build improvements indefinately and enter ocean squares with optics.

Cutter- Late game ship that starts with the march promotion.

Hippus

Lanceman-replaces Knight
+50% versus other mounted units.

Raider. Replaces Horseman
4 moves per turn, strength 4.

Sheaim

Phase Knight- swordsman that starts with dimensional1 (escape), can learn dimensional2

Phase cannon. Bombardment has a chance to remove a defender from the city and send them to a random location or even hell.

Amurites

Firebow-Archer that can also cast fire1- replaces archer, basically a mage with the city garrison promotion available for defense of cities.

Flamebow-upgrade of Firebow that starts with fire 2-replaces longbowman.

Spelleater-swordsman that starts with the magic resistance promotion.

Spell Golem- replaces the iron golem. Golem made of pure magic force that does not need iron. Has a chance of auto-casting anit-magic shell when destroyed.


Balseraphs

Acrobat-replaces scout. Recon unit with a high withdrawal rate.

Trickster-replaces Maceman. High withdrawal rate, can move in enemy lands. Doesn't require iron. has a chance of converting defeated units.

Calabim

Blood bomb-Suicidal unit brainwashed and magically charged by its vampire masters. Can detonate for collateral damage on all units in adjacent squares. Replaces Catapult.

Human Cattle-Replaces Warrior. Has extra health which can be either used to survive or to feed their masters.

Flesh Golem-replaces other golems. Dark experimentation on the discarded corpses of the vampire's victims has created these. They are created using city population plus production.

I think the best way is to have some of the units be racial, and some of them not. You simply have to go through them one by one.

The dwarven Stone Golem UU makes no sense as the dwarf subtype, for example. An elven mounted unit would probably work better as a mounted subtype, but the various elven archer types work better as elves.

Another possibility is to look into what makes the anti-racial promotion work in the first place. Is it some enchantment? is it a certain type of training based upon how they fight? Is it possible to change a unit's type based upon what terrain they are in? For example-> Elven Marksman is elvish in the woods, but a regular Marksman anywhere else, because the anti-elvish combat promotion is a study of the specific way the elves use the forest to their advantage and a specific counter to those tecniques.

Another possibility is to get rid of the elven and dwarf slwaying promotions, and make the units all their regular type. Personally, I could never see their logical justification. An elven horseman is going to fight very differently than an elven archer. Consider this- the computer never goes any other path than combat1-combat2-combat3, etc. The difference in combat should come from their various special abilities.

This man speaks with Wisdom!

Bannor(Loki)

Enforcers: Warrior replacements that reduce maintenance in cities they are stationed in. +50% versus barbarians.

Checked in.

Cavalry of Law: Horseman replacement with the same abilities as enforcer. +1 movement on roads.

Not accepted because the Bannor will have access to a wonder (probably open to just them and the Sheaim) that will create an obsidian gat in every city before obsidian gates are available. That will be enough of a boost to their movement capacity.

Malakim(Loki)

Desert Nomad:
+100% on desert. Chariot replacement. Double movement on desert.
Glowing Golem:
Golem type with bonuses against undead, demons, and shades. Requires sun altar but no metals.

I would use this if I could get a model that would look good with it. I would love a model that was just a glow, but thats going to be impossible with just a skin.

Lanun

Worker Boat.
This work boat can build improvements indefinately and enter ocean squares with optics.

Checked in.

Cutter- Late game ship that starts with the march promotion.

Maybe, I havent checked in yet. We are gonna need a fuller naval line so this may end up being used as a general ship for everyone.

Hippus

Lanceman-replaces Knight
+50% versus other mounted units.

Checked in.

Raider. Replaces Horseman
4 moves per turn, strength 4.

Checked in.

Sheaim

Phase Knight- swordsman that starts with dimensional1 (escape), can learn dimensional2

Phase cannon. Bombardment has a chance to remove a defender from the city and send them to a random location or even hell.

Im not so big on the phase abilities. The Sheaims dimensional powers applies more to summoning and channeling. I will probably steal the idea you had below for the Blood Bomb and make it into a Sheaim unit.

Amurites

Firebow-Archer that can also cast fire1- replaces archer, basically a mage with the city garrison promotion available for defense of cities.

Flamebow-upgrade of Firebow that starts with fire 2-replaces longbowman.

Checked in.

Spelleater-swordsman that starts with the magic resistance promotion.

Dropped, just because this would be useless for dain since he already gives all his units magic resistance.

Spell Golem- replaces the iron golem. Golem made of pure magic force that does not need iron. Has a chance of auto-casting anit-magic shell when destroyed.

Hard to make a model for.

Balseraphs

Acrobat-replaces scout. Recon unit with a high withdrawal rate.[quote]

Checked in.

[quote]Trickster-replaces Maceman. High withdrawal rate, can move in enemy lands. Doesn't require iron. has a chance of converting defeated units.

I dont know about this. Maybe Ill make a national unit that has a chance of making defeated units into lunatics instead.

Calabim

Blood bomb-Suicidal unit brainwashed and magically charged by its vampire masters. Can detonate for collateral damage on all units in adjacent squares. Replaces Catapult.

Im going to steal this idea for a Sheaim unit.

Human Cattle-Replaces Warrior. Has extra health which can be either used to survive or to feed their masters.

I dont like this name, but i do like the concept of having a weak calabim unit that is a better source of food for the vampires (heals them more than normal, etc) so this concept will probably be used.

Flesh Golem-replaces other golems. Dark experimentation on the discarded corpses of the vampire's victims has created these. They are created using city population plus production.

I think we will have a spell that creates a flesh golem out of two living units.

This might not be exactly an Unit proposal, but as we can have only three of every kind of national units each of them should be named. At the time the unit is build (or better upgraded) it should get a name based on the building city and an integer.
So the first Shield Wall you upgraded in Athingar would be named Athingards Shieldwall I and so forth. This might not be to complicated to code with phyton but would add some more flavour to the national units and somehow point out that these guys are some kind of special force.

I put this in this afternoon. It works great. I have unitname of cityname so its "Paladin of Teutes". I thought it would work better with the various city name forms.

I didn't realize I had done this against the 1.0 code base so its going to be going out in 1.0.

Suh-weet!

(Civfanatics tells me my entry is too short, so I'm now lengthening it beyond ten characters. I think this should do.)

You wouldn't need a new model for the spell golem, just a new skin, and maybe an effect like the demons have. Give it a translucent blue skin, with a halo similar to the entangle spell, and your good to go.

Not sure how you'd implement a suicidal callateral damage bombard unit (blood bomb) for the Sheaim. Suicidal doesn't sound like them to me. Maybe they could have a Hemah like unit. Spellcaster that can either cast fireballs or bombard directly. But that sounds more like the Amurites.

It would be cool if all of the Amurites units were replaced with magical equivalents. A Hemah like seige unit instead of a catapult. Magic carpets instead of horses. Spell golems instead of iron golems. The advantage would be that they wouldn't need as diversse of a resource base, only mana nodes. The disadvantage would be slightly lower strength against recon units.

Human Cattle- change name to Thrall.

A bunch of Points:
1. I like the idea of thralls.
2. Spelleater could instead gain HP from defeated spells.
3. Mercurian unit: Lifegiver- Angel unit that ressurects an ally each time it kills an enemy.

You wouldn't need a new model for the spell golem, just a new skin, and maybe an effect like the demons have. Give it a translucent blue skin, with a halo similar to the entangle spell, and your good to go.

Not sure how you'd implement a suicidal callateral damage bombard unit (blood bomb) for the Sheaim. Suicidal doesn't sound like them to me. Maybe they could have a Hemah like unit. Spellcaster that can either cast fireballs or bombard directly. But that sounds more like the Amurites.

It would be cool if all of the Amurites units were replaced with magical equivalents. A Hemah like seige unit instead of a catapult. Magic carpets instead of horses. Spell golems instead of iron golems. The advantage would be that they wouldn't need as diversse of a resource base, only mana nodes. The disadvantage would be slightly lower strength against recon units.

Human Cattle- change name to Thrall.

Im going to use the name "Blood Pet" for the Calabim warrior that gives extra life to the vampire that consumes him (consuming a Blood pet may give a vampire a move back and the ability to attack again).

I added a palace for each civ in the buildings thread, using the concepts we talked about when discussing the spells (each civ will start with a magic resource).

How that effects us here is that we can decide if we want a unit to be civ specific or mana specific. In general the mana specific ones will be available to that civ, and anyone who creates a node of that mana type. Just gives us another option to play with.

For example we could make a zombie that explodes for fire damage when killed, but not tie it to a civ. Instead it is an upgrade for a diseased corpse if the fire resource is available (native to clan of embers, other civs will need to do something to earn it).

How that effects us here is that we can decide if we want a unit to be civ specific or mana specific. In general the mana specific ones will be available to that civ, and anyone who creates a node of that mana type. Just gives us another option to play with.

For example we could make a zombie that explodes for fire damage when killed, but not tie it to a civ. Instead it is an upgrade for a diseased corpse if the fire resource is available (native to clan of embers, other civs will need to do something to earn it).

This is perfect.
I think that a lot of the units we've posted under UU's so far would be better like this. The only UU's would be things that were actually specific to that civ.

Here's some:
Balseraph: Magician. Replaces both mage and conjurer and has all of their abilities.

How that effects us here is that we can decide if we want a unit to be civ specific or mana specific. In general the mana specific ones will be available to that civ, and anyone who creates a node of that mana type. Just gives us another option to play with.

For example we could make a zombie that explodes for fire damage when killed, but not tie it to a civ. Instead it is an upgrade for a diseased corpse if the fire resource is available (native to clan of embers, other civs will need to do something to earn it).

This is perfect.
I think that a lot of the units we've posted under UU's so far would be better like this. The only UU's would be things that were actually specific to that civ.

Here's one:
Balseraph: Magician. Replaces both mage and conjurer and has all of their abilities.

This was brought up in the main thread, and I think we should add the spearman and the swordsman back in.

The spearman would be available pretty early, and provide an upgrade for the warrior for civs that don't have access to copper. It should be available with bronzeworking, and be strength 2, +25%plains strength, +25% versus mounted units, and +50% versus barbarians. That way the axeman is still a big upgrade, but if you don't have copper, you have something a bit more advanced to fall back on.

The Swordsman would be available with the same tech as the Maceman, but be strength 5 (weaker than crusaders), and have no bonuses or penalties, nor would it require iron.

This was brought up in the main thread, and I think we should add the spearman and the swordsman back in.

The spearman would be available pretty early, and provide an upgrade for the warrior for civs that don't have access to copper. It should be available with bronzeworking, and be strength 2, +25%plains strength, +25% versus mounted units, and +50% versus barbarians. That way the axeman is still a big upgrade, but if you don't have copper, you have something a bit more advanced to fall back on.

The Swordsman would be available with the same tech as the Maceman, but be strength 5 (weaker than crusaders), and have no bonuses or penalties, nor would it require iron.

In general the archer line already serves this purpose.

The spearman would give you an alternative to the axeman if you went for bronzeworking instead of hunting and found yourself with no copper, and it would also obsolete the warrior, so you wouldn't see warriors as recommended unit on turn 500. :P The spearman would be available at teir 2 versus the axeman's 4 or archer's 3, making it a viable early defense against barbarians if you don't want to go far into the metalworking-warfare side of the tech tree just yet. Besides, spears are so easy to make even I could make one, I find it hard to beleive that no one can invent them until pikemen come along.

Otherwise, if you go for bronzeworking, and find yourself without copper, you're stuck with warriors for a long long time.

I personally think that now with our system of separating sphere from civ UU's, i think that the Bannor UU's that reduce maintenance in their cities should instead be available as upgrades to anyone with a law node.

I personally think that now with our system of separating sphere from civ UU's, i think that the Bannor UU's that reduce maintenance in their cities should instead be available as upgrades to anyone with a law node.

I could go for that. Let me make some changes.

I could go for that. Let me make some changes.

Here's another example:

Mercurian UU is Hunting Angel. Anti undead that can move quickly but loses battles against archers. Like an assasin but angel type.

A life sphere unit would be a Life Giver. Angel type that heals units around, both friend and foe. Also relativly non-comabatant.

Another example is that vampires are a calabim UU, but anyone with a body sphere node could produce Enraged Swordsmen, an axeman replacement that doesn't require copper and has blitz (but only one move, and loses blitz when upgraded).

Here's another example:

Mercurian UU is Hunting Angel. Anti undead that can move quickly but loses battles against archers. Like an assasin but angel type.

A life sphere unit would be a Life Giver. Angel type that heals units around, both friend and foe. Also relativly non-comabatant.

Rabbit is going to try to make a winged swordsman for us. I figure if we can get that we can start making angels like this with a little skinning work.

Rabbit is going to try to make a winged swordsman for us. I figure if we can get that we can start making angels like this with a little skinning work.

Reality ruins my life once again. Is rabbit using the SDK for his uber models? It seems like if you can get angels, there isn't much you can't get.

Reality ruins my life once again. Is rabbit using the SDK for his uber models? It seems like if you can get angels, there isn't much you can't get.

No, just those 3dsmax plugins from here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=159481

The SDK doesnt have anyting to do with graphics, its just code.

Another example is that only the elves get elven units. However, anyone with a nature node can build restorer-an upgraded druid with more spell abilities. Also upgrades land quicker.

We have a mix of 4 Unit granting methods:

1. Normal unit tree (all the shared units, warriors, longbowmen, etc). Units granted to all civs (in general). We probably own't be adding many units here, maybe a few ships, but this unit tree is pretty solid.

2. UU's. Units that replace units in the normal tech tree for a specific civ. The non-human civs will have tons of these. The human civs could have none.

3. Resource upgrades. Upgrades to existing units that are only available if a specific resource is available. This resource could be Fire mana, Nightmares, Hellstones, Iron, Banannas, anything. Most mana types will probably allow a few of these.

4. Summons. Units that can be gained through spells. In general this means they will only last for a turn, but this law can also be broken. Summons are always other-worldly units.

We have a mix of 4 Unit granting methods:

1. Normal unit tree (all the shared units, warriors, longbowmen, etc). Units granted to all civs (in general). We probably own't be adding many units here, maybe a few ships, but this unit tree is pretty solid.

Yeah, there are a few holes here and there, but I can only see two right now, that I've pointed out earlier (spearmen as early anti-horse oh crap I went for bronzeworking and have no copper, and something needs to be worked in a bit later). I think all late game ships should start with march, after all, why can't a ship repair and move itself? It's not like the crew carries it!

2. UU's. Units that replace units in the normal tech tree for a specific civ. The non-human civs will have tons of these. The human civs could have none.

Any civ that doesn't have any UUs will be underpowered, and there's the 'why would I play the civ that doesn't get any cool new units' factor to consider.

3. Resource upgrades. Upgrades to existing units that are only available if a specific resource is available. This resource could be Fire mana, Nightmares, Hellstones, Iron, Banannas, anything. Most mana types will probably allow a few of these.

Perhaps there could be multiple dependencies in this as well. Hellstones are an upgrade to stone that give better horse units, but they require a fire node. Nightmares are an upgrade to horses, but they require a darkness, mind, or chaos node, etc etc.

4. Summons. Units that can be gained through spells. In general this means they will only last for a turn, but this law can also be broken. Summons are always other-worldly units.

Perhaps some summoned units can be made to stick around, for a price. Summon a powerful demon that requires sacrifice of a population point in a random city somewhere in the empire per turn he stays......but I see AI as a problem here.

Yeah, there are a few holes here and there, but I can only see two right now, that I've pointed out earlier (spearmen as early anti-horse oh crap I went for bronzeworking and have no copper, and something needs to be worked in a bit later). I think all late game ships should start with march, after all, why can't a ship repair and move itself? It's not like the crew carries it!

Ships typically have to moor to inact repairs.

Any civ that doesn't have any UUs will be underpowered, and there's the 'why would I play the civ that doesn't get any cool new units' factor to consider.

They are underpowered only if everything else is equal, which we aren't assuming. We will need a reason players will want to play every Civ, I wouldn't assume new units will be that reason in every case. Remember that since each civ starts with a different mana node for free all the units that that mana node offers will be available to them from the begining.

Perhaps there could be multiple dependencies in this as well. Hellstones are an upgrade to stone that give better horse units, but they require a fire node. Nightmares are an upgrade to horses, but they require a darkness, mind, or chaos node, etc etc.

Definitly. We will have to make sure it balances out. I don't want players to have to spend to much time trying to get all of the requirements for some unit. But in certain big cases it might make sense. For example the Armageddon spells and Avatars might take multiple reosurces and mana types.

Perhaps some summoned units can be made to stick around, for a price. Summon a powerful demon that requires sacrifice of a population point in a random city somewhere in the empire per turn he stays......but I see AI as a problem here.

Yeap, thats exactly the challenge. Im really interested in the Mercenary Mod though and being able to stick fantasy creatures in it.

We have a mix of 4 Unit granting methods:

1. Normal unit tree (all the shared units, warriors, longbowmen, etc). Units granted to all civs (in general). We probably own't be adding many units here, maybe a few ships, but this unit tree is pretty solid.

2. UU's. Units that replace units in the normal tech tree for a specific civ. The non-human civs will have tons of these. The human civs could have none.

3. Resource upgrades. Upgrades to existing units that are only available if a specific resource is available. This resource could be Fire mana, Nightmares, Hellstones, Iron, Banannas, anything. Most mana types will probably allow a few of these.

4. Summons. Units that can be gained through spells. In general this means they will only last for a turn, but this law can also be broken. Summons are always other-worldly units.

1. I agree with this stuff.
(ships should only have march up to a certain point, like 3/4)

2. This will balance out the malakim and elohim which have no obvious UU's.

3. So the mana upgrades will be the most important of these?

4. I don't think that you should include mercenaries in this.

1. I agree with this stuff.
(ships should only have march up to a certain point, like 3/4)

2. This will balance out the malakim and elohim which have no obvious UU's.

3. So the mana upgrades will be the most important of these?

Yeap.

4. I don't think that you should include mercenaries in this.

Ahh, good point. Have you played with the mercenaries mod, if so, whats your impression of it?

Ahh, good point. Have you played with the mercenaries mod, if so, whats your impression of it?

I haven't played with it yet. Is it downloadable? I haven't been paying close attention.

We have a mix of 4 Unit granting methods:

2. UU's. Units that replace units in the normal tech tree for a specific civ. The non-human civs will have tons of these. The human civs could have none.



2. Aren't heros under this? So each civ would have at least one.

5. I think that you forgot religion specific units. ie: crusader, paramander, lunatic.

I was just using some shadows to kill an enemy civ, and i noticed that the anim is kinda lame. What if they had the panther and an assasin, both of them transparent.

I was just using some shadows to kill an enemy civ, and i noticed that the anim is kinda lame. What if they had the panther and an assasin, both of them transparent.

Right now, I can't make anything but animals transparent. some units use their alpha layer for transparency but most use it for the civ color. Since animals weren't supposed to have a civ color they can be made transparent. Hopefully this will change soon with the progress the 3d modelers are making.

Fire Mana Units:
+Fire Elemental (created by the Conjure Fire Elemental spell)
+Fireball (created by the Fireball spell)
+Meteor (created by the Meteor Swarm spell)


I think that some of these mana units are kinda cheesy. They aren't about being able to get un upgrade because you have a magic node, they are simply summoned units.
ie: fireballs, water elementals, air elementals.
Instead, I think that you should have more interesting units.
ie: fire gives fire archers, demolition ship, fledgling dragon (weak dragon with fire spellcasting)

I think that some of these mana units are kinda cheesy. They aren't about being able to get un upgrade because you have a magic node, they are simply summoned units.
ie: fireballs, water elementals, air elementals.
Instead, I think that you should have more interesting units.
ie: fire gives fire archers, demolition ship, fledgling dragon (weak dragon with fire spellcasting)

I have no intention of making them buildable, I was just listing them there as a common place to put the fire units. In general you should never be able to build a unit you can summon and vise-versa.

Yes, but theoretically you could get water elementals without a water node if you worshipped the OO.
Also, are we going to make it so that your spellcasters can only learn spells you have a node of?
Also, i really think that the balseraphs should get a magician unit that was a combination mage and conjurer. Could both summon and cast normally.

Yes, but theoretically you could get water elementals without a water node if you worshipped the OO.
Also, are we going to make it so that your spellcasters can only learn spells you have a node of?
Also, i really think that the balseraphs should get a magician unit that was a combination mage and conjurer. Could both summon and cast normally.

I assume you mean the Sheaim (Balseraphs are the carnival folk). And in effect the Sheaim already have this ability, they have the Summoner Trait which means that all of their mages get the Summoner 2 promotion for free and all archmages get Summoner 3 for free. So their mages cast summoning and sorcery spells equally.

But I think you implementation of the idea is much cleaner. Just UU the conjurer and mage into a single unit that gets both. I'll make the change.

And the plan was to make mages get spells for free of the nodes you control, but they can learn spells outside of the controled nodes by buying them with promotions.

A couple of things:
a) I think that the dark elf assasin should be the shadow elf or something. Dark elf assasin sounds like a name from vanilla civIII
b) Are you gonna make werewolves into a new creature type? That would be pretty cool. Another use for silver (cities with silver in their radius give their units a free werewolf slaying promotion)
c) I think that anyone with air mana should be able to build a line of flying units. Pegasus--Griffin--War Griffin
d) For chaos unit names how about Demon spawn and Crazed Beastling
e) Earth mana should allow you to build a clay golem.

I think that the lanum should have a ship that can enslave other ships.
Also, they should have a unit with amphibious that can attack enemy ships if it is carried by one of their ships.

There were dark elves in vanilla civ III? We need a dubious smiley. :P

The silver resource has been replaced with Mithril.

Flying units means that we have to add in aerial defenses, but they'd be cool.

A couple of things:
a) I think that the dark elf assasin should be the shadow elf or something. Dark elf assasin sounds like a name from vanilla civIII
b) Are you gonna make werewolves into a new creature type? That would be pretty cool. Another use for silver (cities with silver in their radius give their units a free werewolf slaying promotion)
c) I think that anyone with air mana should be able to build a line of flying units. Pegasus--Griffin--War Griffin
d) For chaos unit names how about Demon spawn and Crazed Beastling
e) Earth mana should allow you to build a clay golem.

Definitly need a more flavorful name for the dark elf assassin, all of the "civ name class" names are in just as placeholders for now.

I will probably move werewolves to animals so that the anti-aniaml bonus's work against them.

Air units would be be awesome, but its probably going to be a while before we have enough models to do them well. They probably won't be in phase 2.

I like the chaos unit names!

I think that the lanum should have a ship that can enslave other ships.
Also, they should have a unit with amphibious that can attack enemy ships if it is carried by one of their ships.

Agree and agree, let me see what I can do.

Agree and agree, let me see what I can do.

I love that pirate raider, but i think it should be called boarding party.

I love that pirate raider, but i think it should be called boarding party.

You right, thats a much better name.

I think that anyone with body should be able to build a "blessed berserker" It would be able to cast body divine spells.

I think anyone with a dimensional node should have all spellcasters start spell extension I. These guys can send their spells through other dimensions, you think they can't get you because you're hiding behind a rock?

I think that there should be a level 4 drown as well. Twisted Warrior?
like 14 strength demon with the drown's abilities.

Yeah, I tenatively put in upgrades for all the religion specific units in the tech tree. So there would be teir 4 elves and dwarves as well as drown if it's implemented.

Quick clan of embers UU-Burning warrior
like a warrior, but more powerful and with fire casting abilites (also can remove forests)

Here's a hippus UU. Wind Knight. Replaces a knight and has all of the abilities but ignores all movement costs and is a flying type unit instead. ALso gets limited air casting abilities.

No one seems to be responding, but here's more UUs:

Grigori: Grigori Inquisitor--Inquisitors that are immune to spells.

Kuriotates: Disciple of Creation--A Prophet replacement that can "move resources" and gets +1 movement. Upgrades keep the "move resources" ability.

Malakim: Lightbringer--Replaces priest. Starts with sentry and mobility I.

Clan of Embers: Firethrower--Replaces catapult but is more powerful, starts with accuracy 1, and fire 1.

Luchuirp: Golem Slave--Replaces worker. Works twice as fast to build mines, workshops, windmills, and watermills.

Here's a hippus UU. Wind Knight. Replaces a knight and has all of the abilities but ignores all movement costs and is a flying type unit instead. ALso gets limited air casting abilities.

I like the Wind Knight. He won't be an "Air unit" as the AI has specific definition of what air units (airplanes) are. An air unit can be intercepted, can only land on airfields, bombards, etc. None of which we would want for a wind knight.

But I do agree with the concept of the unit. I will add it.

No one seems to be responding, but here's more UUs:

Sorry about that, I think you are going to be impressed with everything that will be added in this weekends update, I am adding stuff like mad. Trying to get in as much of the stuff as we agreed on in brainstorming as possible. Its a slow process (especially spells) as a lot of stuff I am adding has unique code written just for it.

Once I get the base stuff in I will be bact trying to fill design gaps again. But in the meanwhile definitly keep sending out the ideas and I will keep trapping them and checking them in if they seem appropriate.

I tend to not respond if I don't think an idea fits. I need to change that and say that i dont like it, otherwsie you don't know if I even saw it. I'll try to get better at that.

Grigori: Grigori Inquisitor--Inquisitors that are immune to spells.

Checking in. This may become a completly unique unit, Im going to call it the Luonnotar, which in FfH were a sect similiar to the Grigori who beleived the gods weren't gods but were little more than petulant children. The Luonnotar were immune to divine magic so its very similiar to what you are suggesting.

Kuriotates: Disciple of Creation--A Prophet replacement that can "move resources" and gets +1 movement. Upgrades keep the "move resources" ability.

I dont know about the move resources. I dont know how we will get the AI to do it well and if it is "fun"

Malakim: Lightbringer--Replaces priest. Starts with sentry and mobility I.

Im going to add it with the bonus sentry 1 promotion. we may give these guys another minor perk later.

Clan of Embers: Firethrower--Replaces catapult but is more powerful, starts with accuracy 1, and fire 1.

Dwarves have the big siege weapons, but I wouldn't mind giving the clan a cheaper catapult that has the same stats. Hopefully we can get forest fires in "fire" and then these untis could start those too.

Luchuirp: Golem Slave--Replaces worker. Works twice as fast to build mines, workshops, windmills, and watermills.

Im really not into the idea that the Luchuirp have golems of all shapes and sizes. Maybe a handful of special golems that help them out, but not replacemensts for common troops.

So I wouldn't mind have a "worker" golem, but it should be later game golem that is a super worker as well as being a decent fighting unit.

Can you give me 3-4 special Luchuirp specific golems?

I updated all of the civ specific units in the first post.

Vampires: Yes, get immortality at level 10? Have you ever tried to kill Dracula? Also, they should be able to cast escape.
Also, I think that the Calabim should get a Thrull--warrior replacement, has the same abilities as blood pet.
Moroi should be able to get vampirism at level 5, because they are half vampire already.
Also, I think the calabim should get a "Hunting Vampire" Replacing assasin. It has the same abilities as a normal vamp, but is only as strong as an assasin and can't gift vampirism.

UU's:
Tali's riders-replace priest for hippus, get +2 moves and have horse rider anim.
Pirate Mageship-replaces arcane barge for lanun. Can carry 2 units, and starts with combat I.
Cassiel's Enforces-replaces knight for grigori. Increased strength. Starts with divine 1, can choose any spehre at level up.

Node units:
Hunting Demon. Replaces war chariot for any civ with both nightmare (hell horses) and an entropy node. Anim is of a demon flanked by his two hell horses. Much more powerful, starts with entropy I.

Okay, their golem units:
1. Mud golem. All land terrain vulnerable to water, 3 strength, buildable with agriculture, can build roads and forts.
2. Magic Golem. Given with arcane techings (that thing for hemah). Medium strength. Casts a random level I spell each turn that you have a node for.
3. Steel Golem. Requires armory and iron. High strength, can build any improvement at 75% speed.
4. Soul Golem. Gains the immortality promotion each time it killls an enemy. With omniscience, high strength. Multiple immortalities stack.

Okay, some quick comments then off to bed for me.

Orc berserker should be "crazed orc"

Maybe you could give the orc berserker as a UU that is a t3 untis with crazed that has medium strength and upgrades to either a berserker or a beastmaster.

Maybe Doviello should get twisted versions of the nature units; beastmaster, druid, and ranger.
The doviello are twisted humans and animals, so it makes sense that their connnection with animals would be twisted as well. The twisted units start with chaos I, and get slightly reduced strength.

Vampires: Yes, get immortality at level 10?

K, Ill add it.

Have you ever tried to kill Dracula?

Does my mother-in-law count, they have the same hair.

Also, they should be able to cast escape.

They will have access to some spell spheres so they can buy spells at level up, ill make sure dimensional is one of them.

Also, I think that the Calabim should get a Thrull--warrior replacement, has the same abilities as blood pet.

The blood pet will be their warrior placement.

Moroi should be able to get vampirism at level 5, because they are half vampire already.

Good idea, Ill add it.

Also, I think the calabim should get a "Hunting Vampire" Replacing assasin. It has the same abilities as a normal vamp, but is only as strong as an assasin and can't gift vampirism.

I would rather have a human assassin that we can give vampirism to, than a hunting vampire that already has it. I would like to keep "the Vampire" (and possible a vampire hero) as the only source of vampirism. That way the introduction of that unit has a dramatic effect on the Calabim empire.

UU's:
Tali's riders-replace priest for hippus, get +2 moves and have horse rider anim.

There are 5 seperate priests, one for each religion. To do this I would need to make a hippus version of all 5, which I dont think is justified for this effect.

Pirate Mageship-replaces arcane barge for lanun. Can carry 2 units, and starts with combat I.

I like this idea. If I had my choice I would love to create a promotion or tech that increased the carry capacity of ships. I will have to look at what it takes to do that.

Cassiel's Enforces-replaces knight for grigori. Increased strength. Starts with divine 1, can choose any spehre at level up.

The Grigori are anti-religion, they wouldn't have divine spells.

Node units:
Hunting Demon. Replaces war chariot for any civ with both nightmare (hell horses) and an entropy node. Anim is of a demon flanked by his two hell horses. Much more powerful, starts with entropy I.

Good idea, I'll add it.

Okay, their golem units:
1. Mud golem. All land terrain vulnerable to water, 3 strength, buildable with agriculture, can build roads and forts.

Sounds good, illl add.

2. Magic Golem. Given with arcane techings (that thing for hemah). Medium strength. Casts a random level I spell each turn that you have a node for.

Sounds good, I may have this be a random spell from a small list of spells that seem appropriate.

3. Steel Golem. Requires armory and iron. High strength, can build any improvement at 75% speed.

This will probably be the Stone Golem.

4. Soul Golem. Gains the immortality promotion each time it killls an enemy. With omniscience, high strength. Multiple immortalities stack.

I love this idea. I dont think it should be a golem though. But I could definitly see this on a powerful undead creature (maybe the vampire hero) that get a free immortality each time it kills a living creature.

Okay, some quick comments then off to bed for me.

Orc berserker should be "crazed orc"

Maybe you could give the orc berserker as a UU that is a t3 untis with crazed that has medium strength and upgrades to either a berserker or a beastmaster.

I like this idea. I need a better name than "crazed orc". Any ideas?

Maybe Doviello should get twisted versions of the nature units; beastmaster, druid, and ranger.
The doviello are twisted humans and animals, so it makes sense that their connnection with animals would be twisted as well. The twisted units start with chaos I, and get slightly reduced strength.

Let me think about it.

The Grigori are anti-religion, they wouldn't have divine spells.
The flavor of this guy is that he ... ah ... enforces for cassiel. Because cassiel is an angel this guy can use some of the force divine spells. Those are basically cassiel's spells.
On level up, (once he has cassiel's favor) he can buy the force I promotion, and be able to cast the force, div I spells.

The flavor of this guy is that he ... ah ... enforces for cassiel. Because cassiel is an angel this guy can use some of the force divine spells. Those are basically cassiel's spells.
On level up, (once he has cassiel's favor) he can buy the force I promotion, and be able to cast the force, div I spells.

Cassiel has defied his lord and has lost access to spells himself. From a functional level we could give these guys special abilities that work like spells (as the vampires have), but a civilization that is anti-religion shouldnt have a UU with the divine promotion.

Cassiel has defied his lord and has lost access to spells himself. From a functional level we could give these guys special abilities that work like spells (as the vampires have), but a civilization that is anti-religion shouldnt have a UU with the divine promotion.

OKay then. How about the UU has the ability that when it dies one random unit with a lower strength in a 3x3 radius dies for each levelthe UU has.

For the Calabim, what about a vampire upgrade? Vampire Aristocrat.

This guy has like 12 strength, and requires a vampire mansion. Same abilities as a vampire, but he can turn any allied unit into a unit that can later be eaten, like a blood pet.

Bannor Units:
Police Monk-
Replaces monk, reduces maintenance and gives +1 happy in cities.

Law Units:
Merchant Guard-
T2 unit that costs as much as a drown, and upgrades to Mercenary and Pikeman. Gives +25% trade route yeild in cities its stationed in. Can travel in Rival territory.
Pirate Hunter-
T3 unit that must stay in your cultural influence. High strength. Enemy pirates in sight of Pirate hunter gain no gold from victories.

I like this idea. I need a better name than "crazed orc". Any ideas?

Maddened Orc?
Blind with Rage?
Raging Orc?
Slaughterer?

Elohim: Gaurdian Angel
This guys is high strength but defensive and must stay inthe fat cross of the city that built him. 1 per city, but that can be raised by certain buildings. Available mid-game.

Bannor:
Lawkeepers--
Replaces horseman gets double movement on roads and can learn law spells. starts with divine, sor, I.

Hippus:
Elite Mercenary--
Late game mercenary unit.
10 strength, 4 movement

Sheaim:
Grimoire--
Allows building of summonable units.
limit of 3 units of each type
Need nodes for units, level 2 units need 2 nodes
Dimensional Portal--
Allows airdropping units
Units built in city get summoning I. If they have summoning I already, they get summoning II.

I like this idea. I need a better name than "crazed orc". Any ideas?


Ex-wife? :mischief:

Cut cut cut. Removed the Giant and Lightning Unit Combats. Giant was only used by 1 unit and with the move of the Air sphere out of Light there weren't any Air units in.

Perhaps for the Balseraphs a "Sadistic Peasant"
Available at drama. Replaces worker gets +25% work rate when in a city's radius for each animal pen in that city.

Okay, big question. Should a racial unit be its race type or its unit type? So would an Elven Ranger be an elf or a ranger? Is a Dwarven Crossbowman a Dwarf or an archer?

And yes, both would be cool, but right now its either/or.

Its possible but you would have to change all the checks for unitcombats to go look for more values. There is an inherent difference in the way you deal with a single and multivalued attributes from a database perspective. It probably isn't worth the work it would take to make this possible.


Can we add another Attribute UNITRACE to the units? This would allow anti Race and anti Unitcombat promotions to work paralell.


Cut cut cut. Removed the Giant and Lightning Unit Combats. Giant was only used by 1 unit and with the move of the Air sphere out of Light there weren't any Air units in.

To bad. You could have put the Ogres into the Giant Class. And of course I hope to be back at working on my Giant Civilization within the next weeks...

Does Beast of Agares require a Summoning Chamber? If not it should.

Can we add another Attribute UNITRACE to the units? This would allow anti Race and anti Unitcombat promotions to work paralell.

We could, but then we have to check both for everything.

To bad. You could have put the Ogres into the Giant Class. And of course I hope to be back at working on my Giant Civilization within the next weeks...

I have no problem adding it back in if we have a reason for it. Just, as is, it wasnt justified.

Does Beast of Agares require a Summoning Chamber? If not it should.

No, it requires a Temple of the Veil. I can only have it require 1 building (without doing something special). Do you think the summoning chamber makes more sense than the temple of the veil?

Do you think the summoning chamber makes more sense than the temple of the veil?

Yes I think as it is kind of summoned from Hell.

Yes I think as it is kind of summoned from Hell.

I agree. However, It should also require the Ashen Veil in the City.

Yes Ashen Veil in City and AV state religion are to be required, too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalid
Can we add another Attribute UNITRACE to the units? This would allow anti Race and anti Unitcombat promotions to work paralell.

We could, but then we have to check both for everything.


The more i think about it the more i like it. It should not be an feature of the unit class but be an attribute of each instance. (Like XP and lifepoints. Maybe we could handle it as promotion? - Promotions are checked before calulationg the combat odds so is there a promotion vs promotion check possible? - I'am sure it is...).

Upon upgrade the race should stay the same as before, so you could have elven flurry made from an elven archer and so forth. Furthermore we would have elven riders, elven archers all more vulnerable to their respective promoted enemys. This will be also of benefit for the vampire-mechanism, as infected units can become undead. Oh and there are of course much more possibilities ...

The more i think about it the more i like it. It should not be an feature of the unit class but be an attribute of each instance. (Like XP and lifepoints. Maybe we could handle it as promotion? - Promotions are checked before calulationg the combat odds so is there a promotion vs promotion check possible? - I'am it there is...).

Upon upgrade the race should stay the same as before, so you could have elven flurry made from an elven archer and so forth. Furthermore we would have elven riders, elven archers all more vulnerable to their respective promoted enemys. This will be also of benefit for the vampire-mechanism, as infected units can become undead. Oh and there are of course much more possibilities ...

This idea sounds great. I hope it won't take too much XML.

Can you add a Symbol (% or something) on each unit we already have the final Art for? This would make it easier to pick some to create graphics for.

Can you add a Symbol (% or something) on each unit we already have the final Art for? This would make it easier to pick some to create graphics for.

Thats a good idea, I'll add it.

C.Roland,

For some reaosn I have a 7-12 second pause whenever it goes to display either the circus tent or the elven warrior units you made. It only happens the first time it displays per game (I assume the game has it cached after that). Are there a lot of poly's used in those or any idea why they are so slow to load. I havent noticed it with any of your other models.

As our mages got substantial upgrades in the last days and weeks i wonder hoe powerfull they are at the moment? It might be necessary to make mages and summoners into national units (maybe 6 or 9 per player) so that mages are still supporting units and not the sole fighting force. What do you think?

I actually have not really played with the new magic system as im busy creating graphics, but it nevertheless came to my mind.

As our mages got substantial upgrades in the last days and weeks i wonder hoe powerfull they are at the moment? It might be necessary to make mages and summoners into national units (maybe 6 or 9 per player) so that mages are still supporting units and not the sole fighting force. What do you think?

I actually have not really played with the new magic system as im busy creating graphics, but it nevertheless came to my mind.

I just put in the marksman ability. Im hoping it is a good counter against mage units. Also I hope that the mages become more versitile, but not more powerful (with phase 1's adepts, fireballs, summon demons and meteor swarms representing the most powerful spells available).

We may raise the cost of mages, but I dont want to make them national units. I f a player wants to try to make an army full of mages I want him to be able to do it, it just needs to be no more effective than an armor full of melee units.

Japp thats of course an reasonable alternative. And probably lower their combat strength too (if not already happened) so that Marksmen and Shadows really target them. :)

Japp thats of course an reasonable alternative. And probably lower their combat strength too (if not already happened) so that Marksmen and Shadows really target them. :)

There strength was lowered in 1.10b so they should be easily targetable.

Okay, I just added in the ability to be able to upgrade to units, but not be able to build them. So now we can make it so you can't build archmages, instead you have to upgrade a level 6 or greater mage to an archmage (along with all the other requirements).

If we do this with units we will remove the building requirement for the t4 units. I would like to have some units only upgradeable and some buildable (with a building requirement). We also have to determine at what level they should be able to be upgraded (or we can leave it at 0 and they could be upgraded as soon as the tech is researched and they have enough gold).

Here are the units:

HEAVY CROSSBOWMAN
ARQUEBUS
FLURRY
MARSKMAN
ARCHMAGE
DEMON SUMMONER
HIGH_PRIEST
INQISITOR
MONK
PALADIN
WAR ELEPHANT
CAMEL ARCHER
KNIGHT
WAR CHARIOT
SHIELD WALL
IMMORTAL
SPARATORI
BERSERKER

What do you guys think?

C.Roland,

For some reaosn I have a 7-12 second pause whenever it goes to display either the circus tent or the elven warrior units you made. It only happens the first time it displays per game (I assume the game has it cached after that). Are there a lot of poly's used in those or any idea why they are so slow to load. I havent noticed it with any of your other models.

The elf with the mask have more poly, but the tent, is a very simple model, i dont know why ? Maybe a problem with the blender exporter.

The problem I see with having level requirements for upgrades is that it'll be very hard to mobilize an army quickly in the event of a war-declaration. If you haven't been very big on military early game, and your warmongering neighbour decides to attack, you'll have next to no way of defeating him, since all the units you train will be inferior to his, and have no chance of obtaining the xp they need to get better. So you'd have almost no chance of winning, instead of the small chance you have as it is now.

I think the lvl req fits archmages well, but for other units it should either not be there, or not be terribly high(for example, if it was as low as lvl 3 or 4, you could just use civics and buildings to get units that lvl directly from training).

I agree with Corlindale that early warmongers would have a huge advantage.

What I propose is to have a scaling cost system to upgrade a unit to teir 4:

level 10- Free (these guys are pretty tough, experienced, and rare, and should be freely promotable once the tech is available)
level 9- 10% cost
level 8- 20% cost
level 7- 30% cost
etc.

This will of course have to be balanced, but it gives peacefull civs more options, while reflecting that warmongers will be better at war. (though the peacfull civ might have more gold, so hopefully it will work out perfectly with the right numbers)

I love the fact that there won't be so many building requirements for units. I think we should keep the higher tier buildings in though, purely as optional bonus buildings though. (bowyer still gives +2xp to archers, but is now an entirely optional way to specialize your cities)

Here are the units:

HEAVY CROSSBOWMAN-Buildable
ARQUEBUS-Upgrade at level 4
FLURRY-Upgrade at level 4
MARSKMAN-Upgrade at level 5
ARCHMAGE-Upgrade at level 6
DEMON SUMMONER-Buildable
HIGH_PRIEST-Buildable
INQISITOR-Buildable
MONK-Buildable
PALADIN-Builaable
WAR ELEPHANT-Upgrade at level 5
CAMEL ARCHER-Upgrade at level 4
KNIGHT-Upgrade at level 5
WAR CHARIOT-Buildable
SHIELD WALL-Upgrade at level 4
IMMORTAL-Upgrade at level 6
SPARATORI-Upgrade at level 4
BERSERKER-Buildable
Beastmaster-Upgrade at level 4
Shadow-Upgrade at level 4
Saboteur-Upgrade at level 3
Druid-Buildable

My reasons:
1. All of the religious units are buildable. I feel that this is nice for the people who want to be able to cast divine spells more easily
2. Out of the 4 unit types, I made at least 1 be buildable, so that even peaceful early game civs can get some t4 units of each type. Generally I made the really good units upgradeable, and the "exotic" units as well. I left druids as buildable because they are non-combat units in a way and thus I want all peaceful players to be able to build them. I think that this way works nicely, although it might be hard to get the Ai to understand, and it might mean that the buildable units just flood the board. Perhaps they should instead be Upgrade at level 1 instead.

I like Lokis rule that for each class one should be buildable.
For the archers i would choose the Arquebuese as a new Weapon comes to play and rifles were so successfull as troops with rifles were quite easy to train.
For the melee troops i'd prefer Shieldwall as buildable and berserker as upgrade. this leaves peacekeepers with a strong defensive unit.
With riders Elephant as buildable.

All the caster types should be upgradeable as each one is getting high level mages because the do autopromote. This adds the summoner as Upgrade and i would like quite a hight level as for archmage too. Level 7 or even 8 come to my mind.

With the religious units im not so shure. High Priest seems to be a candidate for upgrading at high level (hes a caster and should get some wisdom before speaking directly to the gods).
For the other religious ones i like them to be buildable.

About druids i to think that they should be buildable as they are a complete new type of unit somehow.

That just makes it impossible for peaceful civs to compete in late game wars. Certain units simply won't be available to them at all until they're probably already hurting. Seems imbalanced to me.

I think for the next version I'll test the following:

Archmage- requires level 6
High Priest- requires level 6
Immortal- require level 6 (with the mithril requirement removed)
Summoner- requires level 6

Conjurer- requires level 3
Mage- requires level 3

All of these auto-generate xp (except for the immortal) so even non-aggresive civs will be able to access these units, though they will have to maintain a reasonable army (not warring is no excuse for not keeping an up to date army).

As Im sure you will notice this also keeps civs form being able to build mages and conjurers. Instead every mage starts as an adept and has to work his way up.

I want to try it out in the next version. If you guys dont like it, I'll change it.

Should a lunatic be buildable or should you have to upgrade a slave to make one?

I like the upgrade idea, with an asylum of course. Can you sacrifice pop to make one as well? Not sure how that would work.

As i read about the unitclasses some seconds ago i want to call a idea of mine back into the minds. Is there a way to make Promotions work against promotions? Talchas?

Then we could make Races (and states as undead) into promotios that would be kept during upgrade.
Original idea: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3876226&postcount=118

As i read about the unitclasses some seconds ago i want to call a idea of mine back into the minds. Is there a way to make Promotions work against promotions? Talchas?

Then we could make Races (and states as undead) into promotios that would be kept during upgrade.
Original idea: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3876226&postcount=118

Im just begining to play with the precombat effects right now. Marksman, Fear and Charm are all promotion based effects that trigger before combat. I can use the same tactic to check the defender for a promotion and apply a positive or negative promotion based on it.

So, now that I am a bit more C++ savy (which is to say Ive graduated from amish to noob) I think this is doable.

As i read about the unitclasses some seconds ago i want to call a idea of mine back into the minds. Is there a way to make Promotions work against promotions? Talchas?

Then we could make Races (and states as undead) into promotios that would be kept during upgrade.
Original idea: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3876226&postcount=118

So if we did this we would remove the racial unitcombats from the game and assign promotions based on the race. Then we would create 2 positive promotions against each unit type (+40% and +80%). In the combat code I would check for the promotions, then check to see if the opponent has the racial opponent and apply the appropriate bonus.

So we wouldnt have:

Demon
Dwarf
Elf
Orc
Undead

Hmm...

We possibly might reduce the gain to +20% if we do it, as the normal promotions like shock would apply also. And we'd consider humans a race, too, i suppose.

So if we did this we would remove the racial unitcombats from the game and assign promotions based on the race. Then we would create 2 positive promotions against each unit type (+40% and +80%). In the combat code I would check for the promotions, then check to see if the opponent has the racial opponent and apply the appropriate bonus.

So we wouldnt have:

Demon
Dwarf
Elf
Orc
Undead

Hmm...

I definetly support this idea.

Calabim:
-I think bloodpets should always be produced with food as they are the food for the vampires. - that will add a interesting choice at the beginning.. growth and infrastructure or defence/expansin and will further promote the building of an breeding pit.
-I further think we should add in an low power Vampire at agriculture that can be upgraded to the normal Vampire later on - or alternatively generate a specialist that is automatically placed in each new city and that represents the local vampire arictocrats - oh better still: we start with an Vampire Specialist in our capital and that specialist allows to breed further Vampire specialist. there can be only one settled per town, but you need them to build the Moroi and Vampires... simply something along that line ... i just feel the aristocracy should be representet in the city screen ;)


Another idea that came to me by scrolling thorugh the SDK is: how about some units that are produced by production and commerce?

Calabim:
-I think bloodpets should always be produced with food as they are the food for the vampires. - that will add a interesting choice at the beginning.. growth and infrastructure or defence/expansin and will further promote the building of an breeding pit.
-I further think we should add in an low power Vampire at agriculture that can be upgraded to the normal Vampire later on - or alternatively generate a specialist that is automatically placed in each new city and that represents the local vampire arictocrats - oh better still: we start with an Vampire Specialist in our capital and that specialist allows to breed further Vampire specialist. there can be only one settled per town, but you need them to build the Moroi and Vampires... simply something along that line ... i just feel the aristocracy should be representet in the city screen ;)


Another idea that came to me by scrolling thorugh the SDK is: how about some units that are produced by production and commerce?

I believe we have a fair sampling of units that are produced by production :) but I really like the idea of commerce built units. Hmm...

I think we could have a vampiric governor specialist that is provided by the palace (so the civ can have 1 right off) and is allowed in other cities when the governors manor is built (the manor comes at education). Does that sound good?

Mercenaries could be produced by commerce, perhaps, in addition to the decreased hurry cost.

Oh, and I thought he meant "production AND commerce". This might be an idea if we have units that require very expensive materials in addition to being hard to produce(say, a "diamond golem" for example). These units could be quite powerful, but the catch would be that the city in question would not contribute economically to your empire during the construction. Perhaps they should also get double hurry production cost.

I updated the unit list in the first post.

Psychorg
Chieftain


Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1 Let me start out by congratulating you on creating the possibly best mod ever. I always knew this mod would draw me out of the shadows .

What actually compelled me to "de-lurk" is an idea I had: A unit that doesn't gain XP by killing enemies, but instead has a chance of receiving one of the promotions the defeated unit had. I suppose it could lead to some interesting scenarios (but it might need a lot of balancing...)

Psychorg
Chieftain


Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1 Let me start out by congratulating you on creating the possibly best mod ever. I always knew this mod would draw me out of the shadows .

What actually compelled me to "de-lurk" is an idea I had: A unit that doesn't gain XP by killing enemies, but instead has a chance of receiving one of the promotions the defeated unit had. I suppose it could lead to some interesting scenarios (but it might need a lot of balancing...)

Im updating the 2nd post to add this idea.

The Imp has an awesome attack. The entire unit kicks ass, whoever made it. :thumbsup:

The Imp has an awesome attack. The entire unit kicks ass, whoever made it. :thumbsup:

Mr Chalid. Demons, crazy people and huge destructive body part covered machines... makes you wonder what hes like in real life.

Do we have any unit that can spy the enemies cities (and one that can steal plans btw)? Except maybe Loki in the near fututre... and the prostitute (courtesan.. i like prostitue more as it sounds like much more despair than courtesan for me) that is planned for the balseraph.

I'm really a curious guy and i love to have those units. (and i'm always missing them when i try to tweak the city AI as i cannot look ingame what the AI-guys are doing...)

Do we have any unit that can spy the enemies cities (and one that can steal plans btw)? Except maybe Loki in the near fututre... and the prostitute (courtesan.. i like prostitue more as it sounds like much more despair than courtesan for me) that is planned for the balseraph.

I'm really a curious guy and i love to have those units. (and i'm always missing them when i try to tweak the city AI as i cannot look ingame what the AI-guys are doing...)

The Saboteur is currently the only unit that can do it. I agree that it should be added to Loki as well.

I dont like the prostitute name because it has a pretty strong modern conotation (at least in america) of being uncultured and crude, something a balseraph unit would never be. The Courtesaun (or another name if we find one) may engage in sex as part of her job but it is only a part of her skills and seduction.

I dont like the prostitute name because it has a pretty strong modern conotation (at least in america) of being uncultured and crude, something a balseraph unit would never be. The Courtesaun (or another name if we find one) may engage in sex as part of her job but it is only a part of her skills and seduction.

Ah the Saboteur. Did never try that one. ;) I thought he can only blast things.

About the Courtesean and the Prostitute: Its not a big matter i just wanted to throw in my thoughts. Of course I'm not a native English speaker so i assume my understanding of fine subnotes in a word is not always the best. :(

I think the Elohim lacks an UU. I would propose a kind of "Sacred Guardian" unit, which would be unable to attack, but which would gain a % bonus to strength for each World/National wonder in the city it resides in, fitting the description of the Elohim as guardians of the sacred places in the world.

I think the Elohim lacks an UU. I would propose a kind of "Sacred Guardian" unit, which would be unable to attack, but which would gain a % bonus to strength for each World/National wonder in the city it resides in, fitting the description of the Elohim as guardians of the sacred places in the world.

What about unable to move as well and only able to be built in cities with Wonders?

The undead Promotion has to be dealt out alongside Vampirism and Vampires should start with undead. (As does Losha)

The undead Promotion has to be dealt out alongside Vampirism and Vampires should start with undead. (As does Losha)

I was considering removing the undead tag from vampires. In FfH mythology they are alive, they are sustaining their life by stealing it from others and have heightened powers because of it.

Does anyone have a reason why they should be undead?

No specific reason except that it would allow a nice couter against them. But we could also introduce a Vampire slaying Promotion to do this.

I looked into what it would take to make land units defend ships if they are being attack by land units. I cant see a simple way to do it as the attacker isn't passed to the canDefend check. Gonna have to think about it.

Hmm how about the following: Simply allow all units to defend (theoretical) and relocate selecting land units vs land units to the getBestDefender function (therer you should have both, attacker and defender). So vs Sea units the land unit could possible defend as well but they are always worst defenders (thats how we arrange it) so they will only defend if their ship is sunk (and then they will be sunk, too)

This will also allow drown to defend against ships ( im not sure if they are allowed at the moment, so this is just a thought)

I've got some questions:

1) Will the Malakim unique units have some special abilities?

2) Will the Svartalfar and Mercurians have more unique units?

3) Is the Pyre Zombie supposed to be an additional unit or should he replace axemen?

I've got some questions:

1) Will the Malakim unique units have some special abilities?

Nothing speced yet. But the controversy between the the Malakim and the Svartalfar is the heart of "Shadow" so they may get more later.

2) Will the Svartalfar and Mercurians have more unique units?

Yes. Mercurians arent scheduled to be detailed until "Fire". The Svartalfar will be covered in "Shadow".

3) Is the Pyre Zombie supposed to be an additional unit or should he replace axemen?

Additional.

Hey Kael. First I have to say I love the mod! Just wanted to know if there will be any centaur or griffin or manticore or chimera or minotaur units in the future? Also i think that treants shouldnt be visible while in forest or jungle tiles since people wouldnt think they were anything other than trees.

Have some suggestion how to ballance the calabin vampires (mostly taken from white wolf's vampire the masquarade...)

- New born vampires are "weak" and have to prey on easy victims(animals barbarians and other lone wandering units) to gather power. I would say strenght 3 and no spezial abilities, but come with an earlier tech. I think they are called Fledgelings or something similiar.

- Upgrading the vampires works the same way as adepts, maybe with different (higher) level caps. So now you have a older vampire with str. 5 or 6 that has some of the abilities the vampires have now.

- The last upgrade would come in the endgame -> the vampire turns into a Methusalem (a national unit with str. 8 - 11, no idea when it would be overpowered). This should be the only type that can erease the population from towns in their endless bloodlust, because this ability is very easy to abuse (In my last game two vampires took continents alone leaving only unguarded pop 3 cities.

More Vampire balance ideas:

- Have their strength/health slowly decrease each turn. They could even die if not fed for a certain amount of turns.

- No regeneration by fortifying. Only way to 'heal' would be through feeding.

- Not sure what the general consesus on the 'feast' ability is, but a quick fix would be to limit 1 feast per turn until. The way it's implemented now is just ridiculously overpowered.

I have yet to run into a Vampire since 1.10g, but the Calabim are simply overrunning everyone in all of my games. 3 games and in all 3 they are 50% ahead in score of number 2. Go Alexis! :drool:

We pointed out some Balacing for the Vampires earlier. I do not know if Kael had included them through.

Our idears were:
-Unhappiness for feeding like for poprushing (maybe only 5 turns per feed on normal)
-Slightly reduced number of XP per feed.
-Vampires have as prerequisite the Governors Manor
-Basic Vampires should be National units limited to 6.

-Governors Manor: Improves Engineers and Merchants only in the City it is built.

Did our SG balancing get included in FfH2? Are they still pow8 with level 16 potential? Damn, I wish I had played the Calabim recently.

This is probably stupid, but hey, more ideas the merrier....

One of the things that really made me enjoy this mod to begin with was some of the hokey stuff....chicken itza, Monty references, etc..

Most of that stuff is pretty much out eventually I'm guessing, so I propose an Orthus type animal unit....

The killer rabbit...with horns like a, and fangs like a....could be a fun quest to, and pay homage to some of the fun goofy stuff in 1.0?

This isnt a big idea or anything but i was wondering if you could make the cannon look more "primitive" or have a fantasy tone to it.

It doesnt look right with the civ vanilla flavor to it.

We pointed out some Balacing for the Vampires earlier. I do not know if Kael had included them through.

Our idears were:
-Unhappiness for feeding like for poprushing (maybe only 5 turns per feed on normal)


I like this idea best. Or maybe make vampires more expensive. Or maybe make their be a limit of one vampire per 1 city you own?

I think we should have cumulative unhappiness penalties. So you could still let your vampires do a feeding frenzy, but it would take a looong time before the city would get decent growth again, as the time for unhappiness would also stack.

Yeah, we really abused that, but we had to with 3 Orthus around. :p

Just a random idea from a random guy, but since you guys are triyng to create a sort of ''dark fantasy'' mod, maybe, in your units, you could have dragon riders or something! You know, early age flight units. Of course, you'd also have to create a similar ressource, dragons...

Just a random idea from a random guy, but since you guys are triyng to create a sort of ''dark fantasy'' mod, maybe, in your units, you could have dragon riders or something! You know, early age flight units. Of course, you'd also have to create a similar ressource, dragons...

Lol we're going to get lots of flying units in later, but only 3 dragons.

<~~snip~~>

We pointed out some Balacing for the Vampires earlier. I do not know if Kael had included them through.

Our idears were:
-Unhappiness for feeding like for poprushing (maybe only 5 turns per feed on normal)
-Slightly reduced number of XP per feed.
-Vampires have as prerequisite the Governors Manor
-Basic Vampires should be National units limited to 6.

-Governors Manor: Improves Engineers and Merchants only in the City it is built.

Im going to do the following to address this, if its not enough we can look at it again:

1. Vampires iCombat reduced from 8 to 7.
2. Vampiric Governor reduced from +2 trade,+2 hammers and +1 culture to +1 trade, +1 hammer and +2 culture.
3. 3 turn unrest follows vampires feasting.

Im going to do the following to address this, if its not enough we can look at it again:

1. Vampires iCombat reduced from 8 to 7.
2. Vampiric Governor reduced from +2 trade,+2 hammers and +1 culture to +1 trade, +1 hammer and +2 culture.
3. 3 turn unrest follows vampires feasting.

Is unrest of additional feast added to the existing unrest?
Unrest as in rebellion after conquering? That might actuall not be a so good idea as a city in unrest does not cost you money. so if you conquere the world and throw each city in unrest you will actually save gold.

Can you set the counter that is used for poprushing up, (and poprushing unhappiness) so that only the people get unhappy (and you actually loose gold as the poppulation/city still costs.)

Or can't you feast while the city is in unrest. That might even be more effective as it will not allow you to feast in newly conqquered cities :)

Is unrest of additional feast added to the existing unrest?
Unrest as in rebellion after conquering? That might actuall not be a so good idea as a city in unrest does not cost you money. so if you conquere the world and throw each city in unrest you will actually save gold.

Can you set the counter that is used for poprushing up, (and poprushing unhappiness) so that only the people get unhappy (and you actually loose gold as the poppulation/city still costs.)

Or can't you feast while the city is in unrest. That might even be more effective as it will not allow you to feast in newly conqquered cities :)

I thought about blocking feasting while the city is in unrest, so you cant hit multiple times in a turn. I wasnt sure. I kinda like that you can choose how much population you want to kill for xp. I would tend to want to lower the xp if used on unrest cities before I would want to remove the ability to "mass feast".

Ill check and see what poprushing uses and see if i can switch to that.

Yeah i will switch to the hurry anrgy timer.

Did we discuss giving captured workers a tag that allows them to be feasted on? I think that should cause happiness!

Hi folks, hi Keal, i managed to skin an elven worker, i hope it suits your needs,
http://img1.imageshack.us/img1/5766/elvenworkers1rj.th.jpg (http://img1.imageshack.us/my.php?image=elvenworkers1rj.jpg)

and....
i did this thing, cause something suddenly forced me to try something, i had only 10 minutes until i had to leave my computer, (where i can skin) and now i wont have the chance to do any texturing until end of the weekend :(
what i wanted to say is, this thing is a quick recoloring, (couldnt change much, so it roughly looks like the elven axeman) but his ears are more gobblin like. as the text on the picture says, its a style sketch, what do you think of something like that for some greenskins ?! this could be a lite scout or something, but with some more bulky versions, with spikes and armorparts and such we could have some fearsome greenskins ;)

i attach the files of him, you could have a closer ingame look if you want,...

Hi folks, hi Keal, i managed to skin an elven worker, i hope it suits your needs,
http://img1.imageshack.us/img1/5766/elvenworkers1rj.th.jpg (http://img1.imageshack.us/my.php?image=elvenworkers1rj.jpg)

and....
i did this thing, cause something suddenly forced me to try something, i had only 10 minutes until i had to leave my computer, (where i can skin) and now i wont have the chance to do any texturing until end of the weekend :(
what i wanted to say is, this thing is a quick recoloring, (couldnt change much, so it roughly looks like the elven axeman) but his ears are more gobblin like. as the text on the picture says, its a style sketch, what do you think of something like that for some greenskins ?! this could be a lite scout or something, but with some more bulky versions, with spikes and armorparts and such we could have some fearsome greenskins ;)

i attach the files of him, you could have a closer ingame look if you want,...

That looks nice! Finally some elven workers who dont look like humans. :thumbsup:

Hi folks, hi Keal, i managed to skin an elven worker, i hope it suits your needs,
http://img1.imageshack.us/img1/5766/elvenworkers1rj.th.jpg (http://img1.imageshack.us/my.php?image=elvenworkers1rj.jpg)

and....
i did this thing, cause something suddenly forced me to try something, i had only 10 minutes until i had to leave my computer, (where i can skin) and now i wont have the chance to do any texturing until end of the weekend :(
what i wanted to say is, this thing is a quick recoloring, (couldnt change much, so it roughly looks like the elven axeman) but his ears are more gobblin like. as the text on the picture says, its a style sketch, what do you think of something like that for some greenskins ?! this could be a lite scout or something, but with some more bulky versions, with spikes and armorparts and such we could have some fearsome greenskins ;)

i attach the files of him, you could have a closer ingame look if you want,...

He is perfect, I was just checking you elven spearman into the warrior slot and your elven dagger guy into the scout slot. The elven units are almost done!!!

well, i forgot to add the picture of the "hobgoblin" in the last post, the whole

and... thing was about this guy
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/2843/stylesketchgreenskin1xi.th.jpg (http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stylesketchgreenskin1xi.jpg)

well, i forgot to add the picture of the "hobgoblin" in the last post, the whole

and... thing was about this guy
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/2843/stylesketchgreenskin1xi.th.jpg (http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stylesketchgreenskin1xi.jpg)

definitly going to use this guy as the orc axeman, he is a perfect upgrade from the t1 version that only has a spear.

Mage raft-low strength t2 water spellcaster. Can only travel in coastal territories. Upgrades to arcane barge. Has sor I, channeling I.

Note: Adepts can upgrade to these, but Mage rafts are also buildable normally. However, arcane barges are only upgradable from lvl3 mage rafts.

Mage raft-low strength t2 water spellcaster. Can only travel in coastal territories. Upgrades to arcane barge. Has sor I, channeling I.

Note: Adepts can upgrade to these, but Mage rafts are also buildable normally. However, arcane barges are only upgradable from lvl3 mage rafts.

I think this would make the water walking redundant, wouldn't it?

On an unrelated note, are priests planned to be made so that you must updrade to them from the basic missionary units, ala mages and adepts? That would make bane divine more fearsome.

Well i was thinking that with water walking you can also target non-mage units and let them water-walk.

I think this would make the water walking redundant, wouldn't it?

On an unrelated note, are priests planned to be made so that you must updrade to them from the basic missionary units, ala mages and adepts? That would make bane divine more fearsome.

The veil is the only religion that accepts mages as priest.

Well i was thinking that with water walking you can also target non-mage units and let them water-walk.

That ended up being to powerful, you would have an entire army that did it and ships (and water in general) became useless.

Other methods of limiting the number, or applying a duration were to hard on the AI. How does the ai pick which unit to Water Walk? And applying a duration meant that AI units wandered out to sea and got stuck there when the spell wore off.

Oh okay, I didn't know how the spell had been changed.

Kael which Sphere did you check the FlyEye to? Body would fit ... :)

Kael which Sphere did you check the FlyEye to? Body would fit ... :)

Divine, Mind 2. It takes the place of the Subvert ability that Loki recommended (you could see everythng in the enchanted units range).

I didnt want it to be an arcane spell because the recon flavor already belongs to the recon units, and i didnt want to steal from that. But making it a divine spell means that only priests of the overlords and their upgrades can cast it so thats not to bad.

Besides, to me that eye looks very "overlordish" so i thought it fit well. And even though I do like the physical connection between body and the eye I think it does a good job of representing mental clairvoyant/farseeing abilities.

<~~snip~~>

% = The final art is already in the mod
**
*****+%Tuurngait (skin and model by Ploeperpengal) (replaces scout)

Well, in my game the Tuurngait still looks like a normal scout. Either this is the wrong model or the creator has hidden the changes very good.:D

Well, in my game the Tuurngait still looks like a normal scout. Either this is the wrong model or the creator has hidden the changes very good.:D

Yeah, the new art was causing CTD's so I had to remove it. I'll update the list.

the tuurngait model leaded to CTDs so it was cut. The post is therfore worng ;)

I haven't played as the Hippus yet, but they look like they could use another UU to make them more interesting.
UU proposal: Hippus Mercenary
Same as normal mercenary, except maybe more expensive & doesn't cost less to rush.
Hippus mercenaries work similar to TheLopez's mercenary mod (and probably wouldn't work without parts of that mod being included). Hipus Mercs can be "hired" by other civs. Once hired, the unit can attack any civ the hiring civ is at war with (without causing any change in diplo status with the Hippus). They are also prevented from attacking any unit the hiring civ is not at war with (can't fight your wars, only the other civ's). For each kill a unit makes while hired, the Hippus civ receives a fee from the hiring civ. Hippus also receive 50% of any plunder.
Problems: requires the mercenary mod and probably heavy modding of it. Does the mercenary mod allow you to retain control of units you rent out to other civs, or do they get control of the unit? Its only fun if a human player can keep control of his hippus mercenary. Also, would the AI know how to use this unit properly?

I haven't played as the Hippus yet, but they look like they could use another UU to make them more interesting.
UU proposal: Hippus Mercenary
Same as normal mercenary, except maybe more expensive & doesn't cost less to rush.
Hippus mercenaries work similar to TheLopez's mercenary mod (and probably wouldn't work without parts of that mod being included). Hipus Mercs can be "hired" by other civs. Once hired, the unit can attack any civ the hiring civ is at war with (without causing any change in diplo status with the Hippus). They are also prevented from attacking any unit the hiring civ is not at war with (can't fight your wars, only the other civ's). For each kill a unit makes while hired, the Hippus civ receives a fee from the hiring civ. Hippus also receive 50% of any plunder.
Problems: requires the mercenary mod and probably heavy modding of it. Does the mercenary mod allow you to retain control of units you rent out to other civs, or do they get control of the unit? Its only fun if a human player can keep control of his hippus mercenary. Also, would the AI know how to use this unit properly?

The Hippus are planned to feature the mercenary mod when it is able to be integrated, and they are running a little low on flavor (but not power) right now without it. Once it gets added they will do as you suggested and more.

i'm already posted it in another tread, but little late :) so reposting it here just for receiving feedback

------------

as far as i remember, in all versions of Civ, there was no opportunity to support city in areas with poor-food terrain. Its not realistic for me, so what if, to add a way for food supply to your mod?

Unit: food caravan
Costs: ???
Build by food (may be only by food, if it is possible)
No Strength, can be captured.
Can do "supply" (add ??? food to the target city storage, caravan is destroyed)

USE: build in food-rich city, in a way as worker/settler does, соnsuming excess food, then moved to target city and do "supply", adding fixed ammount of food to city storage if it isn't full or grows up city if food storage is full.

* allow to speed up city grows by costs of stoping it in another
* allow to have not size 1 city in arctic/desert zones (resource cities)
* allow to prevent death of citisens from starvation in case of temporal food lack, as a result of farm pillaging or civic change or other
* allow to create specialized production centers, or GP farm (culture centres) wich do not feed themselfs, but supplyed by other cities (its a country, not a just a group of selfish cities, isn't it? )
* allow to cultivate culture in border cities affecting by foreign culture bomb to get back some of lost land

i do not think this feature will be overpowred, becouse of resourses/GP/production you get from this "donated" city, will be compensated by loosing production in donor city, more than, it can be balanced by caravan cost/supply numbers (30/20 for example).

the only question is how to teach AI to use it?

PS. sorry for my english...

i'm already posted it in another tread, but little late :) so reposting it here just for receiving feedback

------------

as far as i remember, in all versions of Civ, there was no opportunity to support city in areas with poor-food terrain. Its not realistic for me, so what if, to add a way for food supply to your mod?

Unit: food caravan
Costs: ???
Build by food (may be only by food, if it is possible)
No Strength, can be captured.
Can do "supply" (add ??? food to the target city storage, caravan is destroyed)

USE: build in food-rich city, in a way as worker/settler does, соnsuming excess food, then moved to target city and do "supply", adding fixed ammount of food to city storage if it isn't full or grows up city if food storage is full.

* allow to speed up city grows by costs of stoping it in another
* allow to have not size 1 city in arctic/desert zones (resource cities)
* allow to prevent death of citisens from starvation in case of temporal food lack, as a result of farm pillaging or civic change or other
* allow to create specialized production centers, or GP farm (culture centres) wich do not feed themselfs, but supplyed by other cities (its a country, not a just a group of selfish cities, isn't it? )
* allow to cultivate culture in border cities affecting by foreign culture bomb to get back some of lost land

i do not think this feature will be overpowred, becouse of resourses/GP/production you get from this "donated" city, will be compensated by loosing production in donor city, more than, it can be balanced by caravan cost/supply numbers (30/20 for example).

the only question is how to teach AI to use it?

PS. sorry for my english...

My fear is that it creates micromanagement. I dont know that its very fun to keep creating supply wagons. You're right that it would be a realistic addition but I like the balance of city growth based on local food so that you get pros/cons for different areas. Being able to mitigate that with a supply wagon lessens the importance of one of the best strategic decisions in the game, where to places cities.

I agree, what it adds micromanagement, but for whom? Only for those who agrees to use it. Enabling it you do not force to use it. That to whom it will be unnecessary - will never use it, that for whom it simply a chesspiece uses it few times, to whom it is interesting - will use to it constantly. Yuo just add another way to play.

It will not reduce importance of city placement, it just gives it аnother way to choose. Whether you цфте to have city on 20 mined hills, having huge production, but starving 20 foods per turn, and forcing you to have 2-3 another cities to supply it with food. Turn per turn. It will be user decision.
Now if i have city with 4-5 food resources - i have only one role for it: settler/worker farm early, GP farm later. It wil give it one more role - sood supplyer for high production city. And player will decide what role to choose.

I agree, what it adds micromanagement, but for whom? Only for those who agrees to use it. Enabling it you do not force to use it. That to whom it will be unnecessary - will never use it, that for whom it simply a chesspiece uses it few times, to whom it is interesting - will use to it constantly. Yuo just add another way to play.

It will not reduce importance of city placement, it just gives it аnother way to choose. Whether you цфте to have city on 20 mined hills, having huge production, but starving 20 foods per turn, and forcing you to have 2-3 another cities to supply it with food. Turn per turn. It will be user decision.
Now if i have city with 4-5 food resources - i have only one role for it: settler/worker farm early, GP farm later. It wil give it one more role - sood supplyer for high production city. And player will decide what role to choose.

So this is the curse of optionals. If the option exists it either gives a significant advantage (for its cost) or it doesnt. If it doesn't then why is it in there? If it does give a significant advantage then players are punished for not using it by being less efective players. And if the option isnt fun to use then they are put in the bad situation of having to do something that isnt enjoyable so that they can play as efficently as possible.

Speaking of micromanagment has any thought been given to eliminating the need to move outdated units back to a city with the right building to upgrade them? I would suggest allowing upgrades to any basic, unlimited unit (provided you have the required building in one of your cities) but still requiring the trip for the national, limited (only 3) units.

Example - upgrading all archers to longbowmen or warriors to swordsmen requires a lot of unit micromanagement just to get all of your cities' defenders current. A compromise could be to make them still have to be in one of your cities, just not the one city that has the upgrade building (archery range or barracks in this case).

What do you think?

- feydras

Speaking of micromanagment has any thought been given to eliminating the need to move outdated units back to a city with the right building to upgrade them? I would suggest allowing upgrades to any basic, unlimited unit (provided you have the required building in one of your cities) but still requiring the trip for the national, limited (only 3) units.

Example - upgrading all archers to longbowmen or warriors to swordsmen requires a lot of unit micromanagement just to get all of your cities' defenders current. A compromise could be to make them still have to be in one of your cities, just not the one city that has the upgrade building (archery range or barracks in this case).

What do you think?

- feydras


I like this Idea. That will help the AI, too, as AI does not mircomanage in this style and writing routines that force the AI to move outdated units to upgrading points seems rather a bad idea. I would even allow it for restricted units for exactly this reason (at last for the AI - ok some might say AI will cheat but i think the AI is hindered by the Prerequisite buildings that much that its ok)

I don't know, I really like the city thing. Also, it takes away from the doviellow ho can upgrade units in the feild.

Can you tweak the costs somehow? Leave it as is if you upgrade in a city with a building, but double it in the field?

And definitely find a way to leave the Doveillo alone. That is a cool feature.

At least we should add it in for the AI. Otherwise it will never get really competitive as it would under no circumstances move a unit somewhere to upgrade it. And i do not want to write a script that does. Such a thing woulld a) be a horror and b) cripple the Ai in other cases.

How about: All civs can upgrade theri units as long as:
a) the unit is stationed in a city
b) the prerequisites for upgrading are met in at least any citi of this civ ( b2: maybe any city on the same continent?)

The doviello would have the advantage of not having to move their units back to their cities (and if we take b2 into consideration on ther continents as well)

Is there anyway to code something like this...

If a unit, say a warrior, is simply sitting in a city that has a barracks shouldn't he be able to "train" over the years and become an axeman for free? Maybe after 25+ turns of sitting there he should absorb enough training?

Same for archers, horsemen, ect. Too farfetched?

Is there anyway to code something like this...

If a unit, say a warrior, is simply sitting in a city that has a barracks shouldn't he be able to "train" over the years and become an axeman for free? Maybe after 25+ turns of sitting there he should absorb enough training?

Same for archers, horsemen, ect. Too farfetched?

Well what if the city doesn't bother making axes?

Well what if the city doesn't bother making axes?

Do you mean they built a barracks, but didn't use it for axemen? How about you need to build a new unit (ie - prototype) and then lesser units stationed there can become that unit over time?

Or did you mean that there were no axes to be found in the city so how could a warrior become an axeman? :p

I think automated upgrade is not really needed. Waiting 25 turns when not in war is peanuts... So you are no longer punished for putting all your resources into research. Actually automatical upgrade would make the most valuable startegy to built many warriors and tech as fast as possible that the cheap warrior upgrad as fast as possible to usefull units.
Oh and one other thing. Barraks allow Warriors to be upgraded to Axeman or Spearman... You would take that choice from the player... not good...

But allowing to upgrade in all cities regardless of buildings in the actuall city... now you'll see that this will give a big boost to the AI. (As you can see I am as always looking at this problem for the AIs side, as all of you are on the players side ;) )

Now now. I'm trying to help the AI with my mapscript bandwagon. :)

Yeah, the spearman/axeman issue is a problem, but easily resolved with prototypes or a simple pop-up. No biggie, but I think the costs should be lower if you upgrade in a properly equipped city.

With regard to what userOne wrote, IIRC, in Civ2, when you sent a trading caravan to a city you had the option to either create a trade route exchanging goods, or you could create a route exporting food from the city of origin to the receiving city. The donor city would be losing 1 food per turn which would be transferred to the donee city.

Very useful in Civ2, not sure if implementable in Civ4.

EDIT: Actually, it may have been 2 food that transferred. It's been a very long time since I played Civ2, and I almost never built caravans anyway.

In regards to food caravans:
There is also the method that SMAC used, have a resource trawler that can work a square in your cultural borders. This trawler could select one type of production (food, hammers, or coin) and the production from that square would be sent back to the city that created it.
I'd say make a limit to how many trawlers each city could produce (or make it a national unit with a limit of n*2 where n is the number of cities you control) to make certain no one creates a real horror of a gp/spec city. Perhaps make it so that you cannot remotely work a tile in a city's fat plus... don't know how hard it would be to have the AI figure out how to work it.

Could someone please explain how exactly Loki works? I want numbers! :)

Could someone please explain how exactly Loki works? I want numbers! :)


bValid = True
for i in range(pPlot.getNumUnits()):
pUnit = pPlot.getUnit(i)
if (pUnit.getUnitType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_GYPSY_WAGON') or pUnit.getUnitType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_LOKI')):
if bValid == True:
if pUnit.getOwner() == pCity.getOwner():
pCity.changeCulture(pCity.getOwner(), 2, True)
else:
if (pCity.getCulture(pCity.getOwner()) > 1 or pUnit.getUnitType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_LOKI')):
pCity.changeCulture(pCity.getOwner(), -1, True)
if pPlayer.getGold() > 2:
pPlayer.changeGold(-2)
p2Player = gc.getPlayer(pUnit.getOwner())
p2Player.changeGold(1)
bValid = False


Basically if Loki is in his own city he gives it 2 culture a turn. If he is in an opponents city he reduces their culture by 1, their gold by 2 and gives one of the gold to his owning civ.

All fo the culture effects need reevaluated. They dont do enough right now.

I agree that archer need to be upgradeable without archery ranges. You would still need archery ranges to build longbowmen. And AI is really handicaped because I have Immortals while his towns are still defended by archers. Or maybe to halve price of archery ranges?

bValid = True
for i in range(pPlot.getNumUnits()):
pUnit = pPlot.getUnit(i)
if (pUnit.getUnitType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_GYPSY_WAGON') or pUnit.getUnitType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_LOKI')):
if bValid == True:
if pUnit.getOwner() == pCity.getOwner():
pCity.changeCulture(pCity.getOwner(), 2, True)
else:
if (pCity.getCulture(pCity.getOwner()) > 1 or pUnit.getUnitType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_LOKI')):
pCity.changeCulture(pCity.getOwner(), -1, True)
if pPlayer.getGold() > 2:
pPlayer.changeGold(-2)
p2Player = gc.getPlayer(pUnit.getOwner())
p2Player.changeGold(1)
bValid = False


Basically if Loki is in his own city he gives it 2 culture a turn. If he is in an opponents city he reduces their culture by 1, their gold by 2 and gives one of the gold to his owning civ.

All fo the culture effects need reevaluated. They dont do enough right now.


Could we up the effects a little? I mean loki seems much less powerful than any of the other heros, even relative to their appearance.

1. Allow him to cast that spell which increase culture in a friendly city he's in.
2. Make him reduce enemy city's cultue by a percentage, like 5%. And his civ would get half of that in loki's birthplace.
3. increase the gold sucking a little, perhaps 3 and i keep 2.

perhaps 3 and i keep 2.

The i strikes me as funny for some reason. You are becoming the loki. ;)

Perhaps we could also allow him to sacrifice himself to create a true culture implosion, the reverse of the culture bomb of the Great Bard. It might be a bit too powerful, as it could literally destroy cities with less than 2000-4000 culture.

Sacrificing himself seems unfitting in a unit that won't even stick around to fight.

Hmm...makes sense. Perhaps he could get a somewhat lesser variety of culture implosion that teleported him to his capital after use(like the Escape spell, so he would be "fleeing from the scene"), so it still wouldn't be possible to spam it too much.

The Red Dragon should get the hero Promotion as he cannot go out and gain experience. (Maybe the others as well)

And maybe give all of them 1 first Strike for the flaming effect.

The Red Dragon should get the hero Promotion as he cannot go out and gain experience. (Maybe the others as well)

And maybe give all of them 1 first Strike for the flaming effect.


I really like the idea of giving the red dragon the hero promotion. I find myself wishing it was a little more of a challenge to get rid of the big guy.

Along those lines I was wondering if it would be possible to have the red's city spawn some mini-dragons/whelps/hatchlings or whatever instead of the regular orcs. These little fellas could roam around the perimiter of the city like regular animals. That way the red dragon's city can have a countryside full of his little minions, making it a little bit harder to just amble up to the city and take it.

The Red Dragon should get the hero Promotion as he cannot go out and gain experience. (Maybe the others as well)

And maybe give all of them 1 first Strike for the flaming effect.

I gave them all first strike. I will make him tougher. Right now hes at 14 str. I'll put him up in the same range as Abashi and Eurabatres.

When a Adventurer (Grigori UU) is upgraded to a Adept, will he gain any sphere because of mana nodes on your empire ?

No no upgraded units gain free spheres based on your mana nodes. However, they do grow a level.

Oh... Well guess i have to life whit that =P

Hey crew,

just thinking that the Belseraphs arcane units (i know not all units are done yet) need some more flavor, and i had an idea:

how about the belseraph arcane units are all, like, sideshow fortunetellers and performers eg:

Adept: Tarot Reader
Mage: Magician (perpentach likes party tricks;) )
Conjorer: Psychic?
Arch Mage: Great Magician
Summoner: Exorcist (i see perpentach as the kind of guy who 'sees' alot of ghosts and demons and want them... removed, and so hires exorcists to do thatt as they are familiar with deamons etc and knows how to handle them)

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet but what about giving the Doviello some sort of Jotun/Frost Giant unit? Maybe they could replace the spartiatoi or another high-level unit? They probably would be easy enough to make, just a re-skin of the hill giant maybe.

Hey crew,

just thinking that the Belseraphs arcane units (i know not all units are done yet) need some more flavor, and i had an idea:

how about the belseraph arcane units are all, like, sideshow fortunetellers and performers eg:

Adept: Tarot Reader
Mage: Magician (perpentach likes party tricks;) )
Conjorer: Psychic?
Arch Mage: Great Magician
Summoner: Exorcist (i see perpentach as the kind of guy who 'sees' alot of ghosts and demons and want them... removed, and so hires exorcists to do thatt as they are familiar with deamons etc and knows how to handle them)

I like these names, if we get some fitting art for them I'll add them.

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet but what about giving the Doviello some sort of Jotun/Frost Giant unit? Maybe they could replace the spartiatoi or another high-level unit? They probably would be easy enough to make, just a re-skin of the hill giant maybe.

We have talked about giving a Frost Giant hero or unit to the Illians. They are speced to be added until "Shadow" or "Ice" so there isn't any priority on them right now.

Hey crew,

just thinking that the Belseraphs arcane units (i know not all units are done yet) need some more flavor, and i had an idea:

how about the belseraph arcane units are all, like, sideshow fortunetellers and performers eg:

Adept: Tarot Reader
Mage: Magician (perpentach likes party tricks )
Conjorer: Psychic?
Arch Mage: Great Magician

Summoner: Exorcist (i see perpentach as the kind of guy who 'sees' alot of ghosts and demons and want them... removed, and so hires exorcists to do thatt as they are familiar with deamons etc and knows how to handle them)I like these names, if we get some fitting art for them I'll add them.

Why not leave Conjuror as it is for the Balseraphs (It sounds pretty carnival-ly already). And, IMO, 'Master Magician' or 'Grand Illusionist' would sound good for the Archmage.

Regarding T4 units & training vs upgrading only: How about if the first of any national unit (outside arcane lines) had to be promoted from a high level unit. Then he could be given the trainer promotion, and any city that that unit is in that has the basic buildings for that line, (i.e, barracks for immortals, berserkers, etc.) could train others of that type of unit? That would be half way between the upgrade only and the buildable versions.

Regarding T4 units & training vs upgrading only: How about if the first of any national unit (outside arcane lines) had to be promoted from a high level unit. Then he could be given the trainer promotion, and any city that that unit is in that has the basic buildings for that line, (i.e, barracks for immortals, berserkers, etc.) could train others of that type of unit? That would be half way between the upgrade only and the buildable versions.

That would be extremly hard to teach the AI to use well.

But from a design perspective the reason we have upgrade only units is to force players to invest in them, so they can't "out produce" competitiors. We don't want archmages to be a commodity.

Why not leave Conjuror as it is for the Balseraphs (It sounds pretty carnival-ly already). And, IMO, 'Master Magician' or 'Grand Illusionist' would sound good for the Archmage.

Yes, i like master magician, but perhaps 'illusionist' would be good instead of 'psychic'...

How about his for the Balseraph Beasmaster: Ringleader, like in a circus
you could give him a miniature elephant, a tiger, and a lion.

More mennacing dire animals that spawn after animals stop spawning, caging them could overlap with regular animals so they don't unbalance anything but also make hunters, rangers, and beastmasters more usefull. For now you can just use single, larger versions of current animals. Later you could give them bone plates and horns/spikes.

Also, I would enjoy a few more cosmetic changes:
1) demon graqphics: an oversized imp with wings and possibly curving horns
2) gargoyle graphics: a reskinned imp
3) Wood golem graphics: A reskinned malakim axeman with leaves or moss on his chest
4) rename orc axeman orc to orc swordsman, or give him axes please.
5) hunched over giants and, to a lesser extent, golems. Currently they look like they are swinging at air when they are attaking smaller units.

How about his for the Balseraph Beasmaster: Ringleader, like in a circus
you could give him a miniature elephant, a tiger, and a lion.

More mennacing dire animals that spawn after animals stop spawning, caging them could overlap with regular animals so they don't unbalance anything but also make hunters, rangers, and beastmasters more usefull. For now you can just use single, larger versions of current animals. Later you could give them bone plates and horns/spikes.

We have this speced for hell, you have to go to hell to hunt the really big monsters.

Also, I would enjoy a few more cosmetic changes:
1) demon graqphics: an oversized imp with wings and possibly curving horns
2) gargoyle graphics: a reskinned imp
3) Wood golem graphics: A reskinned malakim axeman with leaves or moss on his chest
4) rename orc axeman orc to orc swordsman, or give him axes please.
5) hunched over giants and, to a lesser extent, golems. Currently they look like they are swinging at air when they are attaking smaller units.

Yeah, we have a lot of art on the plate, the team is chewing through it as fast as possible. I think we have some of the best artists on the board, and a lot of their units are better than what firaxis has made, but its a very time consuming process.

We have this speced for hell, you have to go to hell to hunt the really big monsters.
Did I strike a nerve?:lol: I know you have this planned, but the barbs get bigger and badder over time, but eh animals stay pretty much the same, also I have a lion with combat V but nothing to upgrade it to..wait i jsut got an inspiration, what if there are magic-user-like higher forms for animals. You can't ubild them, you can't even build animals, but after an animal hits lever three it can upgrade to an alpha animal with greater strength and or speed at a hunting lodge; then at level six upgrade to a dire version at a grove.

Also, aplace whre you could train animals would be a cool addition for balseraph. It could require three to ten caged animals of the type before the animal was built and could have an acrobat model in the basic one, a harlequin model in the second tier, and a beastmaster type model in the third tier. Perhaps for balance reasons you could give it to everybody or make it so that the 'tamed' animals cannot be caged.

Yeah, we have a lot of art on the plate, the team is chewing through it as fast as possible. I think we have some of the best artists on the board, and a lot of their units are better than what firaxis has made, but its a very time consuming process.

yup I agree, just some suggestions I think would be neat to have implimented as I am playing a game as the dwarves. I am really apreciative of all the really fine work you guys have been doing. Keep it up, nd it is your game, If I really want these changes in I guess I could learn to do some modding myself.

Did I strike a nerve?:lol:

:D Thats funny. You can go to hell Xereq! :lol: That wasn't my intent.

I know you have this planned, but the barbs get bigger and badder over time, but eh animals stay pretty much the same, also I have a lion with combat V but nothing to upgrade it to..wait i jsut got an inspiration, what if there are magic-user-like higher forms for animals. You can't ubild them, you can't even build animals, but after an animal hits lever three it can upgrade to an alpha animal with greater strength and or speed at a hunting lodge; then at level six upgrade to a dire version at a grove.

Also, aplace whre you could train animals would be a cool addition for balseraph. It could require three to ten caged animals of the type before the animal was built and could have an acrobat model in the basic one, a harlequin model in the second tier, and a beastmaster type model in the third tier. Perhaps for balance reasons you could give it to everybody or make it so that the 'tamed' animals cannot be caged.


Yeah, I dont know that they need to be scalable forever though. Some objects should be front loaded (powerful early but they dont scale well), back loaded (weak early on but they scale to become very powerful) and some should be balanced. Animals have been given a little scability by being allowed to level, but I don't think they should be expected to upgrade like main units.

I did like the spell Psychic_Llamas posted in the spell thread that increased the icombat of all the worlds animals. That could be very interesing to see implemented.

:D Thats funny. You can go to hell Xereq! :lol: That wasn't my intent.

Yeah, I dont know that they need to be scalable forever though. Some objects should be front loaded (powerful early but they dont scale well), back loaded (weak early on but they scale to become very powerful) and some should be balanced. Animals have been given a little scability by being allowed to level, but I don't think they should be expected to upgrade like main units.

I did like the spell Psychic_Llamas posted in the spell thread that increased the icombat of all the worlds animals. That could be very interesing to see implemented.

I understand, its just that I am bieng beset by barbarians form all angles on a huge map with less civs than normal, and the lion and panther units I have with combat 5 & 4 would be worth the investment of an upgrade in my perspective. I am playing as dwarves and my golems don't gain any experience so I trained my animals just to see how big they could get, now i've kinda hit a dead end.

I really like the idea of giving the red dragon the hero promotion. I find myself wishing it was a little more of a challenge to get rid of the big guy.

Along those lines I was wondering if it would be possible to have the red's city spawn some mini-dragons/whelps/hatchlings or whatever instead of the regular orcs. These little fellas could roam around the perimiter of the city like regular animals. That way the red dragon's city can have a countryside full of his little minions, making it a little bit harder to just amble up to the city and take it.

I really like this idea. In my current game I've got a barbarian city right on my border with huge culture and the giant red dragon. But I'm not scared, he doesn't move, and the only thing coming my way from there is Archers.

It'd be really neat if whelps roamed around the way animals do, but if they gain enough experience they can become a mid sized dragon that can enter civ borders (like a non-animal barbarian), and then after a certain level there if they take over a city they become a full sized one and become stationary there. It'd be like having mini-civs within the barbarian state, and allow serious Dragon fear pandemics.

Added:
Also, it'd be neat to have similar things with other types of creatures. Like a huge Kraken or other sea monster spawns in a coastal barbarian city and doesn't leave (nesting or something) and then its younglings roam around the sea like animals (no going in civ borders), if one gets lucky and levels up a bit they get bigger and become mid sized and capable of attacking cities, and then if they level enough and take over a coastal city they become huge and stay in that city to progress their species.

Maybe make them get slow xp on their own (someone recommended this for the big dragons, which would really help) so that they do eventually get there, but because its a slow system players have plenty of time to prepare for beast attacks.

I agree on the dragon whelps.

I had a few thoughts about Lizardmen that seemed to have a common solution:
1. Lizardmen in water look odd (they just walk on water, even their panthers)
2. The ease with which Lizardmen travel from land to water and vice versa makes me paranoid of their pillaging abilities (though I can't be sure if they can even pillage)
3. The idea of a boat attacking a Lizardmen seems weird, and it seems more like lizardmen would attack the crew of a boat, not the ship itself.

These things make me feel like these units are flying boats with no cargo space shaped like lizards, so what I was wondering, was if they could either have two images (one swimming, one walking) or being two units that change into one another, and some special rules for transfering from land to water and vice versa, and a "capture" type attack against boats, and possibly being invisible while swimming.

The idea for it being two units:
The land unit that attacks normally (and looks how current ones look), have amphibious assault (so can attack across rivers or from boats without penalty). Has special ability to "destroy" itself to "create" the water unit version of itself in targeted water tile (this creates a unit with 0 movement left).
The water unit (looks like some swimming lizardmen, or a shadowy shape under water) can attack units in water tiles and have a % chance of capturing any boats it defeats. Has an special ability to "destroy" itself to "create" the land unit version of itself in a targetted land square (with 0 movement left). Can't be seen by other units unless in adjacent tile.


Not really sure how the AI would handle it though, the water walking just weirds me out.

Not really sure how the AI would handle it though, the water walking just weirds me out.

Yaer the water walking. Doing it with graphics alone does not work. Changing the Unit when travelinng form Land to water completley screws the AI ... and that is unfortunateley not an easy fix.

So it will have to stay as it is for the time beeing (Drown have the same problem; And we would have really liked an dragon that flyes over the oceans..)

Is a level 9-10 warrior adventurer supposed to be able to defeat the red dragon?

Is a level 9-10 warrior adventurer supposed to be able to defeat the red dragon?

Adventurer only gives the Hero promotion I believe...

Is a level 9-10 warrior adventurer supposed to be able to defeat the red dragon?

We dont really think about whats supposed to be able to be able to beat what. But Acherons power is raised form 14 to 18 in 0.13.

We dont really think about whats supposed to be able to be able to beat what. But Acherons power is raised form 14 to 18 in 0.13.
I even slayed him with an elven ranger who had two firststrikes.:D It was awesome to finally find that lizard! never before saw it in game. Sadly the babarian AI only used him to guard a village of the size 4 and that battle was kind of dissapointing. well must have been Legolas I suppose:lol: