View Full Version : Grand Duchy of Lithuania (Litva)


Litvin
Feb 16, 2006, 01:29 AM
Hello everyone!

First of all I's sorry for my English.

I looked through the civilizations created and those which are in the process of creation. Unfortunately I couldn't find Grand Duchy of Lithuania (Litva), though it was the largest country of Medieval Europe, which consisted of modern Belarus, the Ukraine, Lithuania, Belostok region of Poland, Smolensk region of Russia and sothern part of Latvia. Maybe the first constitution of the World was originated in Litva. It was called the Statut of Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

I'm not good in creation of civilization at all:sad: , but may be someone will be interested in working out such civilization.

I suggest:

Leaders - Vitaut (aggressive, organized)
Yagiallo (spiritual, expansive)

Special unit - Pagonya (light cavalery good vs mounted units, movement - 3)

Colors - white-red-white

Flag - horizontal stripes: white-red-white

I'm ready to help anyone who will try to create such civilizatiion.

Thank you

Litvin

Broken Legion
Feb 16, 2006, 05:41 AM
Could you do a list of cities?

Litvin
Feb 16, 2006, 08:48 AM
Could you do a list of cities?

Sure!

Here we go:

Capital: Navagradak

Polatsk, Garodnya, Byarestse, Turau, Mensk, Vilna, Nyasvizh, Byalastok, Smalensk, Magileu, Pinsk,


I would also add two more leaders:

Usyaslau Charadzei (aggressive, spiritual)

Alherd (expansive, organized)

Starting techs: agriculture, hunting

Thank you for your attention

Litvin
Feb 16, 2006, 08:52 AM
You can get more information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Lithuania

Red Door
Feb 16, 2006, 05:14 PM
CivArmy has done a Lithuania civilization, iirc.

Litvin
Feb 17, 2006, 01:34 AM
CivArmy has done a Lithuania civilization, iirc.

This great CREATOR has made "Lithuania". This is a modern country. This country was just a part of Grand Duchy of Lithuania (Litva).

King Mindaugas or MINDAUG was the founder of Grand Duchy of Lithuania (Litva).

PLEASE DO NOT MIX "Lithuania" and "Grand Duchy of Lithuania (Litva)".

The reason is like if you say Florida meaning the whole United States:)

Once again get more info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Lithuania

This should be A different Civilization, just because of its Role in the History of the World.

I would be really happy if CivArmy could help!!!

Broken Legion
Feb 24, 2006, 05:13 PM
This is the basic CivInfos file, it'll need more cities. I'll do more, though I don't how fast, if you could get Leaderheads for the four guys you mentioned as well as the flag it'd help.
117586
It isn't runable yet, this is just so you can see the file and comment (if you understand it)

NeverMind
Feb 25, 2006, 06:30 PM
I'm also interested in making this civ, as well as Belarus separately :D . Litvin, we could disccuss it in Russian (http://forum.civfanatics.ru/index.php?showforum=41), if you wish ;)

Litvin
Feb 27, 2006, 01:48 AM
This is the basic CivInfos file, it'll need more cities. I'll do more, though I don't how fast, if you could get Leaderheads for the four guys you mentioned as well as the flag it'd help.
117586
It isn't runable yet, this is just so you can see the file and comment (if you understand it)

Hi! Thanx that you care about civilization of Grand Duchy of Lithuania (GDL).

These days i'm a bit busy, but I will try find the info you need as soon as possible.

Let me know how many cities you need.

Gonna try to open your file, not sure if i can succeed in it :rolleyes:

Litvin
Feb 27, 2006, 01:59 AM
I'm also interested in making this civ, as well as Belarus separately :D . Litvin, we could disccuss it in Russian (http://forum.civfanatics.ru/index.php?showforum=41), if you wish ;)

Hi!
Zdorovo! Mozhno poprobovat'. Tolko ya dumayu, chto botet imet' smysl obsuxhdat' vse, chto kasaetsya sozdania civilizacii Velikogo knyazhestva Litovskogo na odom forume i v odnoi teme, t. k. eto angloyazychnyi forum davay postitsya na English:)

Brief translation: Let's discuss creation of this civ in one place and in English.

I think joining our efforts will bring suceess to creation of good civ:)

Spasibo! Dzyakui! Thank you!

Litvin

Litvin
Feb 27, 2006, 02:51 AM
This is the basic CivInfos file, it'll need more cities. I'll do more, though I don't how fast, if you could get Leaderheads for the four guys you mentioned as well as the flag it'd help.
117586
It isn't runable yet, this is just so you can see the file and comment (if you understand it)


Oops! Thre is a problem:
________________________________
The XML page cannot be displayed
Cannot view XML input using XSL style sheet. Please correct the error and then click the Refresh button, or try again later.

Error opening input file: 'CIV4CivilizationsSchema.xml'. Error processing resource 'CIV...
_____________________________

I guess archive is not correct...

Could you help?

Litvin
Feb 27, 2006, 05:49 AM
To Broken Legion

Here is thу image of USYSLAU CHARADZEI:

can't place it like copy/paste, so just givr you a link to the site:

http://www.3dway.org/articles/2/13/13

The image is in top left corner


If you know hom to post the image on the forum, please tell me how to do it.

Litvin
Feb 27, 2006, 05:55 AM
http://www.3dway.org/articles/2/13/13

Broken Legion
Feb 27, 2006, 06:03 AM
Open the file with wordpad or notepad, the Internet reader is dodgy

Broken Legion
Feb 27, 2006, 06:18 AM
What do you think Charadzei's stats etc should be? i.e: Spiritual, Aggressive etc and what about his favourite Civic.

Litvin
Feb 27, 2006, 09:12 AM
What do you think Charadzei's stats etc should be? i.e: Spiritual, Aggressive etc and what about his favourite Civic.

I would like him to have representation:rolleyes:, but it will be correct to give him Hereditary Rule

Litvin
Feb 27, 2006, 09:37 AM
Open the file with wordpad or notepad, the Internet reader is dodgy

Thanx! Now i am reading it.

<LeaderName>LEADER_YAGIALLO</LeaderName> change name to YAGAILLO

The rest seems OK

List of additional cities:

Zaslaue
Braslau
Vaukavysk
Krychau
Slutsak
Barysau
Kletsak
Gomel
Ragachou
Mazyr
Mstsislau
Kamyanets
Vitsebsk
Vorsha
Drutsak
Kopys
Rachytsa
Kapyl
Slonim
Kobryn

Broken Legion
Feb 27, 2006, 10:08 AM
That's good, I'll add them soon, It'd help if you laid out what you wanted all the leaders traits to be.

NeverMind
Feb 27, 2006, 04:10 PM
Zdorovo! Mozhno poprobovat'. Tolko ya dumayu, chto botet imet' smysl obsuxhdat' vse, chto kasaetsya sozdania civilizacii Velikogo knyazhestva Litovskogo na odom forume i v odnoi teme, t. k. eto angloyazychnyi forum davay postitsya na English:) ...


No problem :D I see Broken Legion is doing well. So, good luck in making this civ. I am going to make Litva and Belarus for my mod later.

PS. I don't see Vilnius (Wilno) in your city list. :confused: To be honest, this list looks like belarusian only.

Broken Legion
Feb 27, 2006, 04:31 PM
Dear Nevermind, I'm making a Belarus (and Ukraine) civs for my CIS 'pack'. Not that you should stop, yours would probably be better seeing as how you seem more knowledgable, it's just a heads up about the competition:D
Litvin, I'm close to finishing the basic stuff, things like specific traits, favourite civics, UU stats and Civpedias will take alot longer.

Litvin
Feb 27, 2006, 04:49 PM
No problem :D I see Broken Legion is doing well. So, good luck in making this civ. I am going to make Litva and Belarus for my mod later.

PS. I don't see Vilnius (Wilno) in your city list. :confused: To be honest, this list looks like belarusian only.

Thanx. Regarding Vilnius, in Belarusian language it sounds like "Vilna" and it is in the first part of City List.

PS It is great that some people know that Vilnius was the former capital of Belarus.

Litvin
Feb 28, 2006, 06:36 AM
[QUOTE=Litvin, I'm close to finishing the basic stuff, things like specific traits, favourite civics, UU stats and Civpedias will take alot longer.[/QUOTE]

I know it takes a lot of time. I think it is better to spend more time and work out playable, deep and nice civ, instead of making civ in accordance with the principle (like we say in Belarus) "just to be" :)

I think it will be correct to organize leaders the following way:

Usyaslau Charadzei - Spiritual and Aggressive, Hereditary Rule
Alherd - Expansive and Philosophical, Theocracy
Vitaut - Organized and Financial, Free Religion
Yagaillo - Industrial and Creative, Representation

Thanx for your efforts :goodjob:

If anyone disagrees let's discuss

Litvin
Mar 01, 2006, 07:59 AM
These are the images of leaders i found for now:rolleyes:

Broken Legion
Mar 01, 2006, 11:03 AM
I've done all the XML (except Civpedias which will function but are blank.)stuff, just the Art aspect needs to be done, I'll get on it.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Grand_Duchy_of_Lithuania.zip
Here's the files, for your perusal.

Litvin
Mar 02, 2006, 01:27 AM
I've done all the XML (except Civpedias which will function but are blank.)stuff, just the Art aspect needs to be done, I'll get on it.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Grand_Duchy_of_Lithuania.zip
Here's the files, for your perusal.


Cool! I'll check 'em as soon as I can. :goodjob:

Litvin
Mar 03, 2006, 02:15 AM
This is the FLAG!

Undeadas
Mar 05, 2006, 06:32 PM
Oh crap... Let's learn some history :)
And let's start from the begining:

This great CREATOR has made "Lithuania". This is a modern country. This country was just a part of Grand Duchy of Lithuania (Litva).

GDL = Grand Dutchy of Lithuania, the NAME itselfs says - that Lithuania isn't just the ordinary part of the country, but is the RULER and the OWNER of it.

"Modern Lithuania" - can't be called GDL ("Grand Duchy"), because it isn't ruled by Dukes.

the old "GDL" was named so, because the ruler was Duke, you CANN'T give a name to the country "The Kingdom of Lithuania" - if there are no kings in it. The reason why Lithuania wasn't a Kingdom is simple - it was a pagan country, and the pope disagreed to grant a crown (there are only two exceptions and only one succesful with King Mindaugas - but that lasted for a very short period of time). That's why in the history you will find the GDL, not any other name.
So GDL is the old Lithuania, which rooled a lot of Slavic lands...


King Mindaugas or MINDAUG was the founder of Grand Duchy of Lithuania (Litva).

Mindaugas was the first one, who:
* United the Lithuania (now adays Lithuanian territory)
* The first one to expand country (into the east...)

He was crowned when Lithuania was allready united.


PLEASE DO NOT MIX "Lithuania" and "Grand Duchy of Lithuania (Litva)".

The reason is like if you say Florida meaning the whole United States:)

Look at this:
* The countries name says "This country belongs to Lithuania" (the Grand dutchy of Lithuania)
* The roolers of it are Lithuanians (born here, lived here)
* The capital is in Lithuania (and by saying this I don't mean only "mordern time" - but also the old one - people here spoke Lithuanian, they were pagans, they were from Baltic tribe. As comparison, Belarusian: spoke slavic language (the old Belarusian - connected with russian language), were Ortodox Cristian, and were from Slavic tribe ).

So saying GDL is Lithuania there is no mixing, except - that the old one - rooled A LOT OF foreign districts. And rooled for a very LONG time.
So we have the same country, just the different size.


Once again get more info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Lithuania
This should be A different Civilization, just because of its Role in the History of the World.

(ech.... wikipedia a very weak stuff, but if you like it....)
And once again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania

and i'll bold some text:
"When Grand Duke Jogaila was crowned King of Poland on February 2, 1386, Lithuania and Poland joined in a personal union, as both countries were ruled by the same Jagiellon dynasty. In 1569, Poland and Lithuania formally merged into a single state called the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. This union remained in place until the adoption of the May Constitution of 1791, which abolished all subdivisions of the states "

I'm just pointing out, that GDL was the Lithuania (and a lot of slavic territories were part of it).

Even you can look at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth

(it has more "3rd party sources") - and you'll find a lot of saying "Lithuania and Poland and so on - because there is the equality between Lithuania and GDL (GDL = Lithuania).

Litvin
Mar 06, 2006, 01:22 AM
PLEEEEASE! Calm down.:)
Every country has its own history. If you do not forget Russian, would you please read the following info:

www.litvin.org

Just one FACT. ALL OFFICIAL DOCUMENTATION of GRAND DUCHY of LITHUANIA was in BELARUSIAN or Old Slavic language (which was the ground for modern Belarusian language). ALL. NONE was written in Lithuanian:rolleyes:

DO YOU THINK it is normal that so called "conquerors" spoke the language of people the "conquered":lol:

Your contry was called ZHAMOITIA or ZHMUD'. Actually the capital of your country was in KOVNO (modern KAUNAS).

Unfortunately do not have time to translate the following source in English, but those people who speak and read Russian can find some useful info:

http://ganba.narod.ru/Litvin.html


RESULT: You have your civ, I have mine. Full stop. Bye:king:

PS sorry for spelling :-(

Litvin
Mar 06, 2006, 01:41 AM
I feel REALLY sorry that the Government of Belarus does not protect the history of Belarus. For them the history of Belarus started after 1917. :confused: As a result coutries like Russia and Lithuania (Zhamoitia) write the history as they want to see. This is the shame.
:sad:

Litvin
Mar 07, 2006, 05:27 AM
I've done all the XML (except Civpedias which will function but are blank.)stuff, just the Art aspect needs to be done, I'll get on it.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Grand_Duchy_of_Lithuania.zip
Here's the files, for your perusal.

Great! Finally I've checked this. I can just say that it is fine with names. I can't say how it is supposed to work, 'cause I not good in programming at all.

:goodjob:

Broken Legion
Mar 08, 2006, 06:48 AM
I haven't tested it yet, invariably I make mistakes which will come up when the XML is loading, but they are always fixable. I sorry I haven't been working on this as my internet is down. I'm on Dial-up now which limits what I can do. Once my Broadbands up and running I'll finish the graphic side and hopefully you'll have your mod. If any one else wants to do the graphics before I am able to, please feel free. Sorry for the delay Litvin.

Undeadas
Mar 08, 2006, 03:39 PM
PLEEEEASE! Calm down.:)
Every country has its own history.

Yes evry country has it's own history. But Belorusia is more a "modern country", and it's history starts with ocupations...


If you do not forget Russian, would you please read the following info:
www.litvin.org

Oh crap, when I write a lot of facts - yopu point me to some site :)
Sorry - but i never knew russian :) And can't read your languge...

I hope you know how different Rusian and Belarusian languages are?



Just one FACT. ALL OFFICIAL DOCUMENTATION of GRAND DUCHY of LITHUANIA was in BELARUSIAN or Old Slavic language (which was the ground for modern Belarusian language). ALL. NONE was written in Lithuanian:rolleyes:

Yes it was. And what this facts says?
It says only one thing: Lithuanians didn't have their own writings (actualy the first lithuanian book came only in XVI century). So if it was needed to write any document - we were using foreign writings (you can't use what you don't have). It's like in the first Civ series - when you occupate foregin city - you can take one of their advantage... :) At that moment writing was taken.

The other fact that you didn't mentioned - that all that writing was used only for chancellery purposes.
Also you didn't mentioned that some of those writings there made in Latin too :) And you somehow forget, that a lot of writings under the united kingdom (Lithuania & Poland) there wrote in Polish (yes not all, some still in russian). So writing as alone thing is a very weak argument in this case.


DO YOU THINK it is normal that so called "conquerors" spoke the language of people the "conquered":lol:

Actualy what you wrote is also one sided thing :) I'll just add what you forgot, or didn't wanet to see:
1. Even deep into now adays Belarusia there were lithuanian schools.
2. Even more deeper - Lithuanian Pastorates went to churches to speak preachments in Lithuanian - this gives a nice idea about lithuanian comunitys in russian land...
3. All Lithuanian rulers spoke Lithuanian :) They just learned russian language as their first foreign - for very simple situation - all diplomatic acts in the east (non GDL territory) were made in russian, a lot of locative rulers - spoke in russian too (exeptions - only when such one was replaced by lithuanian one).
4. Other thing - that expansion to the east was often made in such a way: comes a lithuanian duke - and if local governor is smart enouth - he acknowledges his loyality to Lithuanian Duke :) if he wan't to be independent - his castle gets burned and a new local governors is put by the duke, very often new local goverment is also local man - from a rival family of the former "ruler" (so a lot of local pop[ulation is happy - they don't feel opresed, and GDL duke is happy - a new ruler acknowledges him, pays taxes and so on).
If you would check Vytautas history you would find a lot of his raids into salvic (russian) lands to "put down" a local ruler who tries to be more independent.
also the other way to secure that there will be no indipendent thoughts was to marry daughter with locla ruler...
In some cases (actualy rarely) - the local region governor was changed by lithuanian one.


Your contry was called ZHAMOITIA or ZHMUD'. Actually the capital of your country was in KOVNO (modern KAUNAS).

Oh... well if you don't know anything about Lithuania - you just could don't speak nonsenses. (now I am feeling, like any englishman would feel by listening of the Indian saying: "British Empire wasn't ruled by england, England was only part of it - and you know - your capital was somethere in Scotland...")
So:
1. First Lithuanian capital was Kreva, second Trakai, thrid (and the last) - Vilnius.
2. Kaunas never was called a capital of Lithuania, except during period of WWI end - WWII- begining. Even then it was called "Temporrary Capital" (Vilnius was ocupied by Polish troops - we were at very "cold war" situation with them).
3. Zemaitija is a region near there Baltic sea. For your knowledge - even Kaunas isn't in the region of Zemaitija. Kaunas is in the region of aukstaitija. :)
(so you are talking really a lot of crap - feel it?)

So please - don't be so light-headed.


Unfortunately do not have time to translate the following source in English, but those people who speak and read Russian can find some useful info:

"Unfortunatly" - you even can't give me any answer to any my writen text one post before....


RESULT: You have your civ, I have mine. Full stop. Bye:king:

Result was allready said by one of your countries historians: "Sadly when we look back to the old times - we find Lithuanians allready there".

Litvin
Mar 09, 2006, 01:29 AM
Hi, dear UN-DEAD-AS-S! I do not have much time to post such HUGE answers. Actually this is not purely historic forum, so I do not even want to answer the crap (a "nice word" you like to use) you posted.
This is the gamers' forum.

You are "pure" nationalist, so I consider it is useless to provide you with any facts, you will never listern to the TRUTH.

PS for your information, I speak (Belarusian, English, Rusian, Polish, German, Turkish and French languages). Obviously, I'm not perfect in all of them, but I WANT to study and learn the HISTORY and the Languages.

When I was a pupil at Soviet times I studied the variant of "history" you are telling me (actually to was SOVIET point of view on history) . Later when I became a student i had a chance to get another variant of the history of Grand Duchy of Lithuania, which I consider to have some ground. My opinion is the last variant is more correct.

Also Belarus is far from being a "modern" country in historical aspect. The first countris on the territory of present Belarus were Polatsk and Turau princedomes, they were founded in 9th century, when ancestors of modern Lithuanians were just a small barbarian tribe to North from Polatsk princedom

PS DO NOT DARE to call my nation and my country as a "conquered" ones.

Take care

Litvin
Mar 09, 2006, 01:35 AM
I haven't tested it yet, invariably I make mistakes which will come up when the XML is loading, but they are always fixable. I sorry I haven't been working on this as my internet is down. I'm on Dial-up now which limits what I can do. Once my Broadbands up and running I'll finish the graphic side and hopefully you'll have your mod. If any one else wants to do the graphics before I am able to, please feel free. Sorry for the delay Litvin.


Hi, Broken Legion! I'm fine with it. As I said before it is better to spend more time and get good product rather than to be fast with a bad one!

Thank you for the job you are doing!:goodjob:

Undeadas
Mar 09, 2006, 04:35 PM
Hi, dear UN-DEAD-AS-S! I do not have much time to post such HUGE answers.
Actually this is not purely historic forum, so I do not even want to answer the crap (a "nice word" you like to use) you posted.

Or you just don't have what to answer :) So it is more easier to run away....


You are "pure" nationalist, so I consider it is useless to provide you with any facts, you will never listern to the TRUTH.

Well evertyhing what you wrote just shows that you are big nationalist :) I just put the historical facts like they are. And you are puting only onesided stuff in a way that you would like to see :)


PS for your information, I speak (Belarusian, English, Rusian, Polish, German, Turkish and French languages). Obviously, I'm not perfect in all of them, but I WANT to study and learn the HISTORY and the Languages.

That's good that you want to do so, one of my hobies is history too :) That's why I can't listen when someone tries with "serious face" to rewrite history...


When I was a pupil at Soviet times I studied the variant of "history" you are telling me (actually to was SOVIET point of view on history) . Later when I became a student i had a chance to get another variant of the history of Grand Duchy of Lithuania, which I consider to have some ground. My opinion is the last variant is more correct.

Well actually in Soviet Union Lithuanian history was rewritten (by russians...) and even there weren't any discusion about history of Lithuania. Any national lithuanian symbols were also forbiden... russians didn't like history...


Also Belarus is far from being a "modern" country in historical aspect. The first countris on the territory of present Belarus were Polatsk and Turau princedomes, they were founded in 9th century, when ancestors of modern Lithuanians were just a small barbarian tribe to North from Polatsk princedom

Yes lithuanians were more like barbarians :) But those barbarians managed to create a united state, which even then was called Lithuania. When the tribes in now adays Belarusia territory were separated duchies and there wasn't such thing like one/united Belarusia. Belarusia appeared on the map only in 1917 (or 1918?) as a single state. That's why I call it a "modern country".



PS DO NOT DARE to call my nation and my country as a "conquered" ones.

Why? Because it hurts your nationalistic heart?

For example Lithuania was occupied by Imperial Russia, Germany, USSR - such are historical facts - there is no shame to accept the historical truth (for me). And you somehow feel angry about your country not so shiny history...
But feeling angry isn't the reason to rewrite world history...

LDeska
Mar 11, 2006, 11:48 AM
I understand that each nation has it's own version of history, but I can not agree with two of the statements, I've found in that thread:
1. Constitution of 3rd May - it was not written by GDL, only by Polish Sejm (Parliament) and signed on 3rd May 1791, what makes it first in Europe and second in the world (after USA) written constitution. Till today we have Constitution Day on 3rd May every year (together with Labour Day on 1st May it gives us a 'long weekend' :) )
2. Wilno was not occupied between WW1 and WW2 - it was a Polish city and it was in the area of Polish state in that time. How can you say that this city was occupied, when there was huge majority of Poles in it? In fact it was few years ago when finally the percentage of Lithuanians in Wilno reached 50%, making it now more Lithianian than Polish city, but it will not change the fact that before war it was a Polish city (but villages outside of city were and are populated by Lithuanians, waht makes it hard to justify how our borders should look like in that time).
I hope that your mod will be a good one - I have nothing aginst putting Wilno the in your cities list, most of cities from Polish mod are also in many other civilizations in civ4, unfortunatelly that's our history.
I hope that someday there will be a mod for our Commonwealth of both Nations - probably with two leaders (and brothers) to chose: Jagiello and Witold :-)

Leszek

NieksasS
Mar 12, 2006, 01:48 PM
I totaly agree with Undeadas, because these are true facts to consider. I am going to take a history state exam, for which I am preparing, and I can say, that these facts the most acurate ones. So if I write them in the exam sheet, I will get them wrong? No, so what,maybe the country is lying to all other countries about this history? Well, I think not, so don't pick on this history because it couldn't be more acurate. And as for Vilnius..I like this city very much,all lithuanians do, because it is OUR city, and polish DID occupy it..I don't have my notes now,but I remmember very well,that after much fighting, Lithuania and Poland came to an agreement to stand down,and that Vilnius will remain to Lithuania, but one of your army's commanders decided to do otherwise, because he thought this would be better for his homeland..Vilnius was occupied, and the number of polish in it only confirms how much they wanted to live in that city..build your own if you want..and Vilnius is true center of lithuanian history and culture, because the castle of Gediminas, the cathedral, the house of kings,all built by lithuanians, and russians took it from poland and gave back to lithuania...I'm not able to add dates and names,but I will, but everything above is true,brief summary of what happened.

Litvin
Mar 13, 2006, 03:14 AM
To ldeska: Thanx for support!

To Undeadas and NieksasS: I am tied of you both (or one:crazyeye: )

To everyone who has time and patience, please explain Undeadas and NieksasS, that Grand Duchy of Lithuania and modern Lithuania are two different formations.

NieksasS
Mar 13, 2006, 07:08 AM
You hear that sound? That's the sound when you get wrong answer, look around,there should be a red sign flashing somewhere. And it should be great duchy of lithuania (GDL) or LDK in lithuanian (Lietuvos Didžioji Kunigaikštystė) since Mindaugas was a king,Vytautas almoust was a king, only later, when Lithuania and Poland was united it was called The Republic of Two Nations (RTN) or Abiejų Tautų Respublika (ATR). Republic,what is it now?Republic as well,sooo what does this mean?Same constitution with minor changes?Yes,THEN this is THE same country,smaller, has a president,not a king,though same constitution,same name,same spirit,same beliefs,what else are you looking for? Only after long wars with Moscow ATR was weakend and ocupied. Then Lithuania was known as independent country only after WWI,not long though. In 2009 we will celebrate the 1000 years of Lithuania's existance, so if it was NOT Lithuania,then why this date will be celebrated worldwide by all lithuanians? Maybe you should turn on the TV when all other nations will send congrats on this event...

Litvin
Mar 13, 2006, 08:02 AM
To NieksasS

I can say that you are the nation which is very united. Your government cares about your history. At school you study the history written by the Lithuanians. Naturally this is the variant of history which fits the needs of your nation the best. I understand this point of view and respect it.

Unlike yours the government of Belarus do not care about the history of Belarus. They do not know the history of my country. All they know is that on the territory of modern Belarus was a huge guerilla war during WW2. That is the whole history they accept :mad:

Several months ago they re-named the central avenue of Minsk (the capital of modern Belarus) named after the first publisher of belarus and maybe Francysk Skaryna. The do not want to restore the history, just because in that case the Belarusians will know the true history of the Land and throw down present Soviet-oriented governmet in order to join civilized world. Up to now we are isolated nation
:(

SteveU
Mar 13, 2006, 09:38 AM
Again.
Problem is you are mixing nation states (Lithuania) and multi-nation empires (GDL, indeed multi-TRIBES because there were no nations in time of GDL). Rome and Italy are not the same. Rome was made by Italic tribes, but Italians don't pretend to be the only ancestors of Roman Empire, as min half of Europe are ancestors. As I saw there is an Italy mod in addition to Rome. Why no GDL mod?

Litvin
Mar 14, 2006, 02:51 AM
Again.
Problem is you are mixing nation states (Lithuania) and multi-nation empires (GDL, indeed multi-TRIBES because there were no nations in time of GDL). Rome and Italy are not the same. Rome was made by Italic tribes, but Italians don't pretend to be the only ancestors of Roman Empire, as min half of Europe are ancestors. As I saw there is an Italy mod in addition to Rome. Why no GDL mod?


Finally! Fresh air! Thanx!

LDeska
Mar 14, 2006, 01:17 PM
About Vilnius as Lithuanian city - it is a Lithuanian city now and no one says it is not or it shouldn't be. Fortunatelly we are all in EU now and there is no more USSR soldiers in Poland or Lithuania. If we want to see that beatiful city we just have to take a plane or train and visit it - of course as a tourists.
I wanted to add that it really was a Polish city before war and I have something that will prove it: official data of Lithuanian Central Statistical Office (Statistikos Departamentas) I really doubt that this office is lying about that issue... (in fact I think that data are 'smoothed' in opposite direction). So, see that link:
http://www.std.lt/en/pages/view/?id=1732
and you will see that at the end of the table, next to 'Vilnius county' there are numbers of population by ethnicity - there are 466k of Lithuanians, 216k Poles, with other ethnicities it is 360k. So I was right that there is slightly more than 50% of Lithuanians in Vilnius now... 60 years ago the proportions were at least opposite.
Two more things: I was surprised that we in Poland like Lithuanians as our neighbours against which AFAIK we never had a war and, what is more important, we had a common state for so long time, but Poles are not so liked in Lithuania... :( Last thing - I really think that a mod for Commonwealth of Lithuania and Poland would be a great thing that might improve those relations :-)

Leszek

Litvin
Mar 15, 2006, 01:17 AM
To ldeska

You talking about the Commonwealth as if the Byelarusians and the Ukrainians never existed:confused:

Don't you think it is just a part of the whole story?

To tell the truth our countries (Belarus, Lithuania, Poland and the Ukraine) had a common state for at least 300 years. So when you are talking abot the Commonwealth you shuold mention two more countries - Belarus and the Ukraine.

Dzen'kue! :rolleyes:

LDeska
Mar 15, 2006, 06:10 AM
Litvin: it's because this thread is about GDL... and also I'm not very good at history of Belarus and Ukraine. Of course I know that in those times our Commonwealth had very diversified population: Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Jews, Belarussians, Russiand, Germans. AFAIK Belarus as an independent state was formed for the first time after WW1 and immediately run by USSR and became a soviet republic, which in fact it is till now... As I heard the support for Lukaszenko is still huge, around 50% of voters still support him, but is declining. I wish you will manage to get rid of that teletubbie Lukaszenko and this last dictatorship in Europe will transform into Republic! Maybe not on this Sunday, when you will have presidential vote, but in few years you will have your Orange Revolution ;-)
I'm afraid that we're too far from the original topic of this thread, so for me EOT, all the best for your mod, I will surely try it. I'm finishing right now my first game with Polish mod, as a Jan III Sobieski on standard map with Noble level. It's a little bit too easy - I have twice more points than the second on the list - Chinese.. next time I'll have to try on next level. One funny thing - Russians in that game are very peaceful to Poland :-) quite strange :) maybe it's because I have 3-4 times bigger state? ]:-)

Leszek

Litvin
Mar 15, 2006, 09:08 AM
To ldeska. It is great that you are aware of the current political situation in my country. And I feel really sorry that you know the history of GDL, grounding only on the data given by historians of modern Lithuania and former Soviet Union. As I mentioned before it is shame for my Land that current government of Belarus does nothing in order to restore historical truth:mad:. I do not have enough time to make such huge posts as our friends from Lietuva do, but I promise as soon as i get more free time I will translate some sources which are now available only in belarusian and russian languages or at least i can provide you with links which have data regarding GDL in English.

I understand that our current government does everything to keep this so-called "union" with Russia. That is why they will never officially claim facts like during war with tsar of Moskovia Ivan Grozny, population of Belarus lost every second, moreover in our eastern parts 8 out of 10 men were killed.

Not much data about true history of Belarus left but I am sure someday the government of Belarus will do what it must do.

PS I like novels written by Genrik Senkevich.

PS I like Polish mod and I do hope that the mod of GDL will not be worse.

Litvin
Mar 15, 2006, 09:37 AM
If anyone is interested in Belarus and Belarusian point of view on the History of Grand Duchy of Lithuania, please check this site:

http://www.belarusguide.com

Thnax in advance for the time you spend to get new info about Belarus;)

LDeska
Mar 16, 2006, 06:21 AM
To Litvin: I hope that more and more of Belarussians will be also interested in history of your country - it will help to make your state get rid of Lukaszenko... we are interested in this because he is fighting the Polish minority in Belarus - lately he even announced that the management of ZPB (Związek Polaków na Białorusi - Union of Poles in Belarus) is not legal and chose his own management of ZPB! He did it because it was the last officially recognized social organization in Belarus, which was independent from Lukaszenko.
The issue of Belarus is well known in Poland and people care about it - ex. last sunday in the Castle Square in my city - Warsaw there was a concert of Belarussians musicians, which are banned in Belarus - to support opposition ahead of Sunday presidential elections.
About sources - I speak russian (I was learning it in schools for 12 years - another legacy of Soviet era ;-) so you can send me also links in russian - you can post it to my private account ldeska (at) wp (dot) pl so we will not spam this forum which is related to civ4...

PS The author you've mentioned is Henryk Sienkiewicz - he won Noble Prize for his novels which indeed in very interesting way describe the times of Commonwealth (and Grand Duchy of Lithuania :-) of course )

Litvin
Mar 16, 2006, 06:49 AM
Hi! Concerning Henryk Sienkiewicz - he is among those authors, who influenced me greatly. The first novel of him, which I read was The Crusaders.

Some of my ancestors were from Poland, they moved to Belarus in the end of 18th century. Naturally many Byelarusians have relatives in Poland. Some of my relatives moved to Poland after Lukashenko came to power. now they teach at universities of Poland.

I've sent you a site, where you can find some info. Personally I do not agree with some abstacts, but al in all it is something which can unite the Byelarusians.

Eskel
Mar 19, 2006, 12:56 PM
I have read this topic with much interest... It is sad that so-close living nations and ex-allies have so much different view on their common history.
I wish we - Polish, Belorussians, Ukrainians and Lithuanians could come to agreement about our past. Especially because our cooperation brought us much prosperity, while misunderstending - so many tragedies. What is more important, any of the successes of the Union couldn't be achived if we acted separately, so we shouldnt deny others part in this great deeds. There wouldn't be a Grunwald's, Orsza's, Chocim's, Kirchholm's or Vienna's victories, if there weren't lithuanians, nor belorussians standing together by one side.

About Vilnius: it was lithuanian city originally. Through many years of Commonwealth it become more polish than lithuanian, because of immigration and polonization of lithuanian nobility. After WWI it was almost completely polonized lithuanian city in the heart of lithuanian lands. Polish invaders, who seized Vilnius in 1920, were Poles, who were born there, or Poles whose ancestors were belorussian or lithuanian as well. Does this have any meaning now? They all fought for land that belonged to their fathers and mothers. I dont see any reason to have quarrel about it.
Vilnius is lithuanian and lithuanian should stay. I think of this in terms of enclosed wheel of time: the whole story returned to its beginning.

How can this be solved in game? There should be mod with separate polish, lithuanian, belarussian and ukrainian civilizatons. I don't think that'll be a serious problem if some city names will be in one time belarussian, polish or lithuanian as well - the same thing had happen to many middle-east or mediterranean cities, and nobody complains (e.g. Byzantium, Constantinople and Istanbul).

There might be a commonwealth scenario, and in such case Republic(Commonwealth) of the Three Nations civilization should have all - polish, lithuanian and rus' cities as well. Interesting would be a scenario, in which all nations start separated, but can be unified, or simply have positive attitude modifiers that will make diplomacy between them much easier than with other neighbours, and with great chance for permanent alliance.

Greetings to all of you (pozdrawiam was serdecznie)

Litvin
Mar 24, 2006, 05:22 AM
For ldeska and other people who speak and read Russian one more source to find something new about the History of Belarus:

http://www.petergen.com/history/ermal.shtml#vst

Thanx

NeverMind
Mar 24, 2006, 03:28 PM
A lot of historical discussion, not much of a mod though.

Litvin, since you are a patriot of GDL and an expert in its history, could you provide us quality portraits of GDL dukes? I'm especially interested in Hedymin and Vitovt.