I recognize there is still some disagreement about this – but in the interest of focusing the discussion, here is my proposed draft constitution.
I have tried to be fair to all the great discussion that has taken place in the governance thread.
Comments and suggestions and corrections to this specific proposal should probably be posted in this thread.
If you want to keep talking about drafting a 2nd competing proposal – those discussions can probably best continue in the “Team Governance” thread.

This proposal is quite long – but it’s really pretty basic. There’s a lot of redundancy.
Hopefully it’s at least easy to understand and follow!

Looking forward to all your comments!
(ducks to avoid thrown rotten fruit!)

The Proposed Constitution
version 3.9
2/24/06

Article I
1) This constitution shall govern the running and operations of Team [Epsilon]. Any Civ4MTDG game rules that are established, or any rulings from the game administrators will override anything written here.

2) Our team shall be known as Team [Epsilon] and we are playing [leader name] of the [civilization].


Article II – Government Structure & Elections
1) Citizens
A citizen is any person who has joined Team [Epsilon] and has not
withdrawn from the game. If someone from an eliminated team wishes to join our team, they may be accepted as a new citizen by the majority vote of all currently active citizens. Once a citizen, you have all the rights and privileges that citizenship grants.

Specifically, Citizens have the right to vote in all polls and elections, read anything in our forums, post their thoughts and opinions anywhere, and the right to run for any office they’d like.


2) Leadership
Team [Epsilon] will be led by citizens that have been voted into office by a majority of currently active citizens (ie, citizens that voted in the election). Once voted into the leadership, the new officers still retain all their rights as citizens, but now shoulder the responsibility to make decisions for the team.

Team [Epsilon] shall be lead by 6 Leaders – the President, the Chief Domestic Officer, the Secretary General of Defense, the Chief Foreign Officer, the Provost, and the Ambassador to the UN. Each Leader will be responsible for a different area of decision making – as outlined in Article III.

3) Leadership Authority and Chain of Command
- Each Officer is solely responsible for the running of their office as specified in Article III. They may appoint people to run the departments under their control if they would like, but they have no obligation to do so.
- Each officer must give orders from their office to the President before each save is played.
- The President shall be the head of the government and will play the save – however, the President is obligated to follow the orders of each Officer regarding their Office. If an officer gives clear orders for what to do regarding their responsibilities, the president must execute those orders. In the event that no clear orders exist, or if there is confusion around over-lapping responsibilities, the President will have the final call and make the final decision.
- In the event of a planned absence, the officer (including the president) may appoint any citizen they'd like to fill in for them while they are away.
- If any of the officers have an unexpected absence, and don't have the chance to appoint a replacement, the President shall appoint a replacement for that officer until they return.
The President may appoint himself to run the department while the officer is away.
- If the President is unexpectedly absent, and has not had a chance to appoint a replacement, the following Chain-of-Command will activate:
6 hours until the turn deadline with no word from the President:
Notice posted that the Chain of Command is about to be activated
Any citizen should post notice in the UN "Turn Tracker" thread that our team may need a time extension.

4 hours until the turn deadline with no word from the President:
Chief Domestic Officer plays the save if around and able to play

3 hours until the turn deadline with no word from the President:
Secretary General of Defense plays the save if around and able to play

2 hours until the turn deadline with no word from the President:
Chief Foreign Minister plays the save if around and able to play
OR
Provost plays the save
OR
The UN ambassador plays the save

Turn overdue by 4 hours
Any citizen may play the save.


4) Election Rules
- Each officer shall be elected for a term of 20 game turns.
- On turn 15 of each term, the Provost (or the appointed head of the Elections Department) shall open nomination threads where any citizen can nominate himself or any other citizen for any office. Citizens and nominees may then ask and answer questions in that thread to help every citizen decide who they wish to vote for.
- On turn 18 of each term, the Provost (or Election Department Head) shall open a poll for each office. Every citizen that has accepted their nomination must be included in the poll. The poll shall remain open until the 20th turn has been played and sent on to the next team. At that point, the polls shall be closed, and all results will be official.
- Any election ties shall be broken by the outgoing President.
- If there is a tie in the election for President, the sitting Provost shall cast the deciding vote.
- All newly elected officers will assume control of the government beginning with “turn 21”… now known as “turn 1” of the new term.
- A citizen may only accept a nomination for 1 position. You cannot run for two offices during the same term.
- All other polls must remain open for at least 2 days


5) Impeachment and Recalls
In the highly unfortunate event that an officer needs to be removed before the 20 turn term has expired, Impeachments and Recalls are allowed.
Impeachment: If 4 of the 6 Officers vote to impeach one of their fellow officers, that officer will be removed from their position and a special election will be held immediately by the Provost. The special election poll will be left open for 48 hours, after which the results will be final. The President will fill in for the impeached Officer if a turn comes up during the 48 hours. If the President is the one Impeached, the Chief Domestic Officer will serve as President till the results are final.
Recall: Any citizen may start a recall poll if they believe any officer must be recalled before the term is over. If 2/3 of all voters in the recall poll vote to recall the officer, the Officer shall be immediately removed, and the Provost shall hold a special election. At this point, everything is handled exactly as described in the Impeachment section.


III – Government Offices & Departments
1) The Office of the President
A) The President
- The President is the highest office in the government and is the officer trusted with the actual playing of the save. The President is responsible to get the save, play it, and pass it on to the next team within the time limits established by the MTDG. If the President is unable to play within the time limit, it is his responsibility to give ample notification and designate someone else to play the save.
- In playing the save, the President is responsible to faithfully execute the orders of each minister as given to him. In the event of conflicting orders, or legitimate disagreements between ministers, the President has the power to make the final judgment call.
- The President is empowered to respond to any unforeseen circumstances that arise when playing the save as best he sees fit. This includes declaring war if necessary. The Presidents decision to declare war must be supported by a vote of 4 of the Officers in order to continue more than 2 turns.
- The President is responsible to post a “Turn Summary” report where all the essential information from the playing of the save is presented for all citizens. Every significant move should be reported for the other officers to verify that their orders have been carried out, and to keep every citizen informed of the happenings, and in case the turn must be replicated.
- The President is also responsible to post maps and any other requested screen shots, to assist in reporting the state of the empire.
- Finally, the President is in charge of all the following departments and may run them as he sees fit, including appointing any citizen to run the department in the President’s place. Any departmental disagreements will be settled by the President.

B) Department of Civics
- Run by the President or an appointee of the President.
- Responsible for making all civics choices.
- Responsible to maintain the “Department of Civics” thread.

C) Department Council on Religion
- Run by the President or an appointee of the President.
- Responsible for choosing our state religion – if any.
- Responsible for all Missionary units from the moment they are built.
- The Department Council on Religion may not send any missionaries into foreign territory or attempt to spread religion in any foreign city without the express permission of the State Department
- Responsible to maintain the “Department Counsel on Religion”

D) Department of Imperial Expansion
- Run by the President or an appointee of the President.
- Responsible for choosing all settlement locations for new cities.
- Responsible for all Settler units from the moment they are built.
- Responsible to maintain the “Department of Imperial Expansion” thread.

E) Department of the Budget- Run by the President or an appointee of the President.
- Responsible for choosing how any gold in the treasury will be spent.
- Any gold rushing of units or buildings must be approved by this department
- Any gold transfers negotiated by the Foreign Department must be approved by this department.
- Any deficit spending (where gold income is negative) by the Department of the Economy (Domestic Office) must be approved by this department.
- Responsible to maintain the “Department of the Budget” thread



2) The Office of Domestic Policy
A) The Chief Domestic Officer
- The Chief Domestic Officer is the head of all Domestic Activities and is responsible for the management of all cities and the development of the surrounding terrain.
- The Chief Domestic Officer (CDO) is responsible to post orders for each turn in a timely fashion for the President to follow.
- The CDO is in charge of all the following departments and may run them as he sees fit, including appointing any citizen to run the department in the CDO’s place. Any departmental disagreements will be settled by the CDO. The CDO is responsible to run a “Domestic Office” thread with a summary of the current happenings in all Domestic departments.

B) Department of Industry
- Run by the Chief Domestic Officer or an appointee of the CDO.
- Responsible for choosing each build for every city (both buildings and units)
- Responsible to choose which tile each citizen will work
- Responsible to choose which citizens (if any) will be relieved of work duty and be made a specialist. (Actual role of the specialist will be determined by the Department of Great People)
- Responsible to make any decisions regarding “pop-rushing” if avalible
- May petition the Department of the Budget for funds to cash rush
- May petition the Department of the Interior for a forest-chop rush
- Responsible to maintain the “Department of Industry” thread.

C) Department of the Interior
- Run by the Chief Domestic Officer or an appointee of the CDO.
- Responsible for each worker and work boats from the moment they are built
- Responsible to choose which tile each worker will improve, and what improvement they will build, and in what order the improvements will be built.
- Responsible for any “forest-chop” rushing
- Responsible to maintain the “Department of the Interior” thread.

D) Department of Great People
- Run by the Chief Domestic Officer or an appointee of the CDO.
- Responsible for each specialist that has been freed from tile-working duty by the Department of Industry.
- Responsible to choose what role each specialist will fill (scientist, engineer, etc)
- Responsible for any Great People that are produced in any city.
- Responsible to maintain the “Department of Great People” thread.

E) Department of Economy
- Run by the Chief Domestic Officer or an appointee of the CDO.
- Responsible for setting the Economy(tax), Science, and Culture sliders.
- Responsible to choose what to research.
- Before the sliders can be adjusted to produce a negative gold return, the Department of the Budget must approve.
- Responsible to maintain the “Department of the Economy” thread.


3) The Office of Imperial Defense
A) The Secretary General of Defense
- The Secretary General of Defense (SGD) is the head of all Defense Activities and is responsible for the management of all military units and the management of any armed conflicts.
- The Secretary General of Defense is responsible to post orders for each turn in a timely fashion for the President to follow.
- The SGD is in charge of all the following departments and may run them as he sees fit, including appointing any citizen to run the department in the SGC’s place. Any departmental disagreements will be settled by the SGC. The SGC is responsible to run a “Defense Office” thread with a summary of the current happenings in all Defense departments.

B) Department of the Army
- Run by the Secretary General of Defense or an appointee of the SGC.
- Responsible for all land and air units (except settlers, workers, and missionaries)
- Responsible to maintain the “Department of the Army” thread.

C) Department of the Navy
- Run by the Secretary General of Defense or an appointee of the SGC.
- Responsible for all sea based units (except work boats)
- Responsible to maintain the “Department of the Navy” thread.

D) Department of the War Academy
- Run by the Secretary General of Defense or an appointee of the SGC.
- Responsible for all promotions that any units receive
- Can choose not only WHAT promotion a unit receives, but WHEN to take that promotion (as waiting can sometimes be advantageous).
- Responsible to maintain the “Department of the War Academy” thread.


4) The Office of the Foreign Ministry
A) Chief Foreign Minister
- The Chief Foreign Minister (CFM) is the head of all Foreign Activities and is responsible for the management of all relationships with other teams.
- The Chief Foreign Minister is responsible to post orders for each turn in a timely fashion for the President to follow.
- The CFM is in charge of all the following departments and may run them as he sees fit, including appointing any citizen to run the department in the CFM’s place. Any departmental disagreements will be settled by the CFM. The CFM is responsible to run a “Foreign Office” thread with a summary of the current happenings in all Foreign Ministry departments.

B) Department of State
- Run by the Chief Foreign Minister or an appointee of the CFM.
- Responsible for all treaties (War, Peace, Mutual Defense, Open Borders, Alliances, etc.)
- In charge of any correspondence with another team. No game related material may be passed to another team without the approval of this department.
- Responsible to maintain the “Department of State” thread.

C) Department of Trade
- Run by the Chief Foreign Minister or an appointee of the CFM.
- Responsible for all exchanges of Technology, Gold, or Units with another team.
- Responsible to broker any deals where goods or units are exchanged – approval for some deals may need to come from the Department of the Budget or from the Secretary General of Defense.
- Responsible to maintain the “Department of Trade” thread.

D) Department of Intelligence and Analysis
- Run by the Chief Foreign Minister or an appointee of the CFM.
- Responsible to keep up with and analyze all information gleaned from the F9 (info) screen.
- Responsible for any spies produced
- Responsible for digging out and collecting any informative tid-bits from things in chats with other teams or stuff posted in the UN forum.
- Responsible to maintain the “Department of Intelligence and Analysis” thread and with all the info gleaned from the F9 (info) screens. (Score, Demographics, Top 5 Cities, and Statistics)

E) Department of Propaganda
- Run by the Chief Foreign Minister or an appointee of the CFM.
- Responsible for any “news” or non-official correspondence sent out to other teams.
- Responsible to maintain the “Department of Propaganda” thread and.


5) The Office of the Humanities
A) The Provost
- The Provost is the head of internal team activities and record keeping.
- The Provost is responsible to run and oversee all elections and election nomination threads. He can nullify any polls with excessively biased language, and open a re-poll with more neutral wording.
- In the event of a tie in the election of the President, the Provost casts the deciding vote.
- The Provost is also responsible for chasing members who have not turned up or have gone missing without notice, updating our team membership tally and in conjunction with the team, extending an invitation to potential new members.
- The Provost is in charge of all the following departments and may run them as he sees fit, including appointing any citizen to run the department in his place. Any departmental disagreements will be settled by the Provost.

B) Department of Nomenclature
- Run by the Provost or an appointee of the Provost.
- Responsible for naming all units and cities (and any team landmarks).
- Responsible to maintain the “Department of Nomenclature” thread and to allow discussion of any names.

C) Department of History
- Run by the Provost or an appointee of the Provost.
- Responsible for keeping track of the “big picture” sweep of team happenings for posterity.
- Responsible to maintain the “Department of History” thread to aid new comers and future generations to quickly get up to speed on where the team is at, and how we got there.

D) Department of Elections & Oversight
- Run by the Provost or an appointee of the Provost.
- Responsible for opening nomination threads on turn 15 of each term
- Responsible for opening elections polls on turn 18 of each term
- Responsible for ensuring no cheating or un-fair play takes place on the team

6) The Office of UN Relations
A) Ambassador to the UN - Represents the team in all official UN thread discussions or votes
- Responsible to open a team poll for any UN decisions that need to be made, and then faithfully represent the will of the team to the UN.



IV. Everything Else
1) Amending the Constitution
This constitution may be amended in 2 ways
A) Factual/typographical errors: Any citizen may point out and have the Provost correct simple spelling or typo errors.
B) Substantive errors: If something significant needs to be changed, a unanimous vote by the current Officers or a 2/3 vote by the citizens and the constitution will be changed by the Provost to reflect the changes.

2) Declaring War
War may be declared if 4 out of the 6 officers vote to declare war – or if they vote to support a war that was already started by the President. If war is declared by a foreign power, no vote is necessary.

3) Referendums
Any citizen may poll a referendum to override a Minister's Decision. 3/5 of the votes entered must be in favor of override for the Minister's Decision to be overturned; until that time, the Minister's Decision stands.

Well, so much for Simple! With all those Departments and Ministries and Offices we might as well call ourselves the Democratic People's Republic of North Epsilon!

All kidding aside, great work. I will restrict my comments to concrete suggestions, and save thanks for the hard work till the end :)

Atricle II3: - In the event of a planned absence, any officer (including the president) may appoint any citizen they'd like to fill in for them while they are away. This is a little misworded, as it almost implies that I can appoint a fill-in for your absence, even though I'm not the president. I would change any officer to the officer. Really minor, but I thought I'd mention it.


II3: Chain of Command We should have a trigger for posting an extension in the TurnTracker thread. Personally, I think that if the President is AWOL at 6 hours, and a Minister hasn't posted that he will play the save in time, then any citizen has the responsibility to request an extension in the UN. There is no excuse for a request for extension failing to be posted. Ever.


II4: Elections There is no option for self-nomination: ...any citizen can nominate another citizen for any office. If that is the intent, (and I'm fine with that) then disregard. But if we want self-nominations, a little reword is in order: ...any citizen can nominate himself or another citizen for any office.


II5: Impeachment and Recalls I don't understand why there are two distinct procedures with very different thresholds. Let's take an example, where everyone is really upset with the way General_W is running the Domestic Department:
Having posted in the Instructions thread drunk (for the third time in a row!), the other officers, having been whipped up into a furious rage by thier ringleader, Peter Grimes, decide they've had enough of G_W's shenanigans. Impeach the devil! is heard up and down the halls of the Secretariat. 4 out of 6 Ministers are required to vote Yea to get rid of General_W. Obviously, G_W votes Nay (otherwise he would have resigned). Even if his patsy, Gbno1fan, votes Nay, the results are 4/5 pro impeachment.

But if the citizens themselves wanted to get rid of G_W, they'd only have to muster 3/4 votes. It seems to me the rabble should have to achieve a higher threshold for recall than the ministers. Not less. I would change the threshold for recall to at least match the 4/5 requirement for impeachment.


III1A: President's duties the Turn Summary description should have one other element expressed: ...Every significant move should be reported for the other officers to verify that their orders have been carried out, and to keep every citizen informed of the happenings. The Turn Summary must be at least accurate enough to exactly replicate the playing of a turn, with every citizen move, slider adjustment, unit move, etc. in case the turn must be replicated or replayed. This happened in the civ3MTDG due to a malfunction in emailing a save. Two teams' turns had to be replayed and resent, and an accurate turnlog is an essential bit of insurance. Potential reword: ...Every significant move should be reported for the other officers to verify that their orders have been carried out, and to keep every citizen informed of the happenings, and in case the turn must be replicated.

That's it for me! Thanks for typing this all up, and giving me something to do this morning :)

Even if his patsy, Gbno1fan,

:dubious: Is this a compliment or a put-down, I wonder...

Maybe I should edit the name to GWno1fan? ;)

Just having a little fun with G_W from our MIA election battles, certainly meant as a compliment, to ease your mind :)

EDIT: Nevermind!

It's a definite change from TNT's style of governing, but I think it will be great! O'm looking forward to the new game!

:salute: Great Work Gen_W ... :mischief: Anal Time :lol: ... spelling and other nit picky stuff :p

2) Leadership
Team [Epsilon] will be lead by citizens ... led

3) Leadership Authority and Chain of Command
I am still a bit dubious about this ... as it implies that those in the chain of command require to have cIV working on their system ... perhaps an easier way would be for the President to appoint two emergency turn takers once he is elected and then these players (which very well may be Ministers) are aware and ready for such an occurance. The reason for this is that as it stands, non-cIV members could be disuaded from holding office.

4) Election Rules
Any election ties shall be broken by the sitting President ... bit confused as to which President you mean.
If the previous President then replace with Outgoing President
If the new President then replace with Newly Elected President

A) The President ... if the above Chain of Comand is agreed to.
it is his responsibility to give ample notification and designate someone else to play the save. ... have appointed two emergency turn takers to play the save.

- The President is responsible to post a “Turn Summary” report where all the essential information from the playing of the save is presented for all citizens. Every significant move should be reported for the other officers to verify that their orders have been carried out, and to keep every citizen informed of the happenings, and in case the turn must be replicated. The President is also responsible to post map and any other requested screen shots, to assist in reporting the state of the empire. ... I mention requested, as a Minister may well be able to open the save and get all the screenies required to get a picture of the state of affairs prior to the turn being taken through their own resources.

C) Department of the Interior
- Responsible for each worker and work boats from the moment they are built ... I feel boat are naval and therefore under the auspices of the defence Department :confused:
EDIT ... Work Boats are mentioned in defence, didn't know ... but left in so you could explain what they are.

4) The Office of the Foreign Ministry
Comment .. love the addition of buying and selling units :clap:

C) Department of History
- Responsible to maintain the “Department of History” thread to new comers and future generations to quickly get up to speed on where the team is at, and how we got there. ... replace with to aid ...

A) The Provost
- The Provost is also responsible for chasing members who have not turned up or have gone missing without notice, updating our team membership tally and in conjunction with the team, extend an invitation to potential new members.



Just my 3 cents (bit better than 2 and I don't think a 3 has ever been a minted currency) ;)

It's a definite change from TNT's style of governing, but I think it will be great! O'm looking forward to the new game!
Unfortunately for me it is not a great change from MIA, which was what I was looking for, but that will not happen.

Unfortunately for me it is not a great change from MIA, which was what I was looking for, but that will not happen.
Good thing too ... you have seen for yourself how the KISS model worked ... I hope that you are not suggesting that you won't enjoy playing under this proposed system.

However ... and this leads to an interesting point since the game hasn't actually started yet ... and please don't take this the wrong way ... but I wonder if it is permitted by the administrators for people to change to another team that may suit their playing style ... because it would be a shame to be locked into a gaming style that would not be fun for them?

Again I hope that this last comment will not be taken the wrong way :blush:

Do you want me off the team? ;)

No you are a damned good player ... in Civ3 anyway ... I still twitch at playing the English to your Danes :lol:

No you are a damned good player ... in Civ3 anyway ... I still twitch at playing the English to your Danes :lol:
So far that has been my only backstab. And it felt good. Whenever Hawklord plays his turn, I hopefully would be able to win that game.

No offense, guys, but let's keep Civ3 MIA stuff in the MIA forums. There are players from other teams here, and, besides: This is cIV, and the Constitutional thread.

Back on topic:

If FE can go nitty on G_W, then I may go nitty on Fe :)

Regarding Fe's concerns over the Chain of Command I disagree that citizens who are diffently-cIV-abled will be dissuaded from holding office. Remember: Each elected person is able to delegate the responsibilities as they see fit. If I (who am on a mac ;)) am elected President (god help you all!) I will simply appoint someone to be 'my' turnplayer. Problem solved.

Emergency Turn-players Unnecessary and redundant. Chain of command is more than adequate.

Work Boats Think of them as workers on the water. Or, citizens working coast squares. Not military or defensive at all. They are essentially a tile improvement. anyone please correct me if this is inaccurate!

Provost A point of Grammar: The Provost is also responsible for chasing members who have not turned up or have gone missing without notice, updating our team membership tally and in conjunction with the team, extending an invitation to potential new members.

Sorry, but I couldn't let that last one slide ;)

3/4 and 4/5 sounds insanely high. Have you guys had experience with these numbers working in other games?

I would suggest 2/3 for impeachment and 3/5 for ammending the constitution.

I think Foreign should be responsible for any of our missionaries in other civs' borders.

That could present the problem of making so that the goals for the same missionary might be different between two people, someone might want the missionary to go to civ X for the money since it is the closest and would prevent any new religion from coming in with out player action, but Forgien would want the missionary to go to civ Z because it would give us line of sight in a city that we might want to attack later on.

3/4 and 4/5 sounds insanely high. Have you guys had experience with these numbers working in other games?

I would suggest 2/3 for impeachment and 3/5 for ammending the constitution.
Keep in mind that because we don't have all that many active players, the difference won't be all that much.

In practice, the amendation threshold is the one we really need to worry about. If we can't change something in the constitution that turns out to be incompatible with the way we want to play the game, we're in a conundrum. For that reason, I'd favor 2/3 for both.

But, like Lost mentioned, it's unlikely that there will be more than a dozen or so citizens, so we should be fine.

I agree with DaveMcW regarding Missionary ... even with very rudimentary knowledge of the game (I'm going to borrow my manual back :lol: ) ... just the name of the unit suggests who should control it, interaction with rival teams should always be firmly placed with the Foreign Department.

The issue of it's function is mute, since the Foreign Department would take councel from all players and ministries when deciding what it will do.

I support the majority requirements the way they are. If we lessen the impeachment by fellow officers any, you'd just need half (3 out of 6), and if we make it any higher, it would be nearly impossible to do it.

As for the recall, I think if there is any real support for a recall, the officers would probably seriously look into impeachment. If the people demonstrate they really don't want someone in office any longer, I'm positive the other officers would have to consider impeachment, because they may lose support in the next election if they don't.

OT: 100th post!!! :band: :beer: :clap: :cheers: :D :D

This may be way off topic, or include too many rules and such.

But are you allowed to be appointed to two different departments? :cool:
and maybe if this is okay, how about
two different departments from seperate offices? :scan:

To me it seems to be okay if you were appointed to two seperate departments in the same office, but would it might be a conflict of interest to be in different departmental offices.

Finally if both of the above are allowed, at what point is it too much?
I.E. the maximum amount of departments one citizen may have is 2,3,4,5?

I guess this depends on how much and how many players want to get involved

I'd say it is possible and upto the relevant Ministers to decide

Ok – Great comments and discussion! Glad to see that most everyone is essentially on board.
Let me address everything that’s been brought up so far. (let me know if I missed anything!)

Leadership
Team [Epsilon] will be lead by citizens ... led
Good catch. Will update this soon.


Leadership Authority and Chain of Command
I think we should leave the CoC as it stands now. Between direct appointments, and the Chain of ministers there is more than enough redundancy to make sure we get the save played according to team wishes in a timely fashion.


Election Rules
Any election ties shall be broken by the sitting President ... bit confused as to which President you mean.
If the previous President then replace with Outgoing President
I meant “outgoing” – I’ll make this change. Thanks again!


The President
Every significant move should be reported for the other officers to verify that their orders have been carried out, and to keep every citizen informed of the happenings, and in case the turn must be replicated. The President is also responsible to post maps and any other requested screen shots, to assist in reporting the state of the empire.
... I mention requested, as a Minister may well be able to open the save and get all the screenies required to get a picture of the state of affairs prior to the turn being taken through their own resources.
I don't see any problem with adding this... I'll make this change also.


Department of the Interior
- Responsible for each worker and work boats from the moment they are built ... I feel boat are naval and therefore under the auspices of the defense Department
EDIT ... Work Boats are mentioned in defense, didn't know ... but left in so you could explain what they are.
Work Boats are essentially workers for the water. They need to be in Dept. of Interior – they don’t have any military value.


Department of History
- Responsible to maintain the “Department of History” thread to new comers and future generations to quickly get up to speed on where the team is at, and how we got there. ... replace with to aid ...
Another Good catch. Will update.


The Provost
The Provost is also responsible for chasing members who have not turned up or have gone missing without notice, updating our team membership tally and in conjunction with the team, extending an invitation to potential new members.
Thanks Peter and Fe – will get this done also.



Impeachment and Amendments:
3/4 and 4/5 sounds insanely high. Have you guys had experience with these numbers working in other games?
I would suggest 2/3 for impeachment and 3/5 for amending the constitution.
I’m cool with changing citizen impeachments to a 2/3 majority. (Hopefully this will never happen anyway)
Also – I don’t have a problem with requiring a 3/5 majority for amending the constitution, but for simplicity’s sake, why don’t we make it a 2/3 majority also. It’ll just be easer to remember!


Missionary Units:
I think Foreign should be responsible for any of our missionaries in other civs' borders.
I’m leery of giving 2 departments control over the same type of unit – just for the confusion potential. But that said, it does make sense that once a unit crosses into foreign territory, it should probably under that control of the Foreign Department (or else the Defense department! :evil: )
Still, I think the best solution may be to leave missionaries under the total control of the Department Council on Religion, but add a clause that says, “The Department Council on Religion may not send any missionaries into foreign territory or attempt to spread religion in any foreign city without the express permission of the State Department”
That way unit control is still in just one department, but still gives the Foreign department oversight on spread of religion to other teams.

How’s that sound?


Keep the comments and suggestions coming!

:salute:

This may be way off topic, or include too many rules and such.

But are you allowed to be appointed to two different departments? :cool:
and maybe if this is okay, how about
two different departments from seperate offices? :scan:

To me it seems to be okay if you were appointed to two seperate departments in the same office, but would it might be a conflict of interest to be in different departmental offices.

Finally if both of the above are allowed, at what point is it too much?
I.E. the maximum amount of departments one citizen may have is 2,3,4,5?

I guess this depends on how much and how many players want to get involved

Good to see you jumping in Memphus! :wavey:

Yes, the constitution is specifically designed to let people hold as many different department positions as the team wants them too. There's no reason the President couldn't ALSO be appointed to manage the Department of the Interior, if we have a president that is really good at managing workers.
No one is allowed to hold two elected offices at the same time, but pretty much every other combination is allowed!

I don't see a reason to impose a limit. Logic and practicality will impose more natural and flexible limits.

I just thought of something. Why don't we have the team captain be elected to a lifetime term (unless they go awol or resign), and allow them to oversee the elections for the other officers?

By "Team Captain," are you refering to the Provost, the UN Rep, or a new position?

Either way, I don't like the idea of a permanant position. I like the idea that everyone get's the chance to be as involved as they'd like to be. A life-time position would just limit our options as a team.
(And we've already got plenty of positions! ;) )

But that's just my opinion!

Although I do like the idea that for the entirety of the game there is always a team member to lead things up and take charge, that would be alot of pressure for that team member, to be actively involved the entire game. And the more I read into the Civ3 Demograme, the longer I am realzing this can be.

I mean although some people have routine lives, no one can honestly tell me they know exactly what their commitments will be in 3 months, or 6 months, or even a year

By keeping every postion flexible it allows for each team member to feel that if they need 20 turns away for whatever reason that they wouldn't be letting the team down.

At the same tiem I think that is where (being a noob to demogames) that is where some of the fun comes in whatching different people govern and make descision
i.e for one turn set the team may have a very different feeling from another 20 turn set.
but it is this way we can always keep our oponents in the dark :evil:

I agree that we need to limit the terms to 20 turns, but I feel that we should have a person who is not running in an election be the one administering the election.

We can easily set up the UN Rep (or maybe a new position - Election Judge?)to oversee the elections.

Even though it is a "permanent" position, we can add allow recalls and impeachments for the position. As for the possibility of RL getting in the way, the person is always welcome to resign as they see fit.

Think of this concept as a judiciary branch to our government.

And, as always, this is just a thought I had - I'm not even sure if I fully like the idea, yet.

Should we allow for referendums?

For example, suppose the Economic Minister sets a beeline for Alphabet, and ignores any suggestion to research a different tech. Can a citizen create a poll to force research on a different tech?

I think that if the Economic Minister did that, the other Ministers (and citizens) would be vocal enough to help him change his mind.

If he didn't, the President does have the authority to override, I believe... Woops! I stand corrected!

...the President is obligated to follow the orders of each Officer regarding their Office. If an officer gives clear orders for what to do regarding their responsibilities, the president must execute those orders.

So, yeah, I think referendum capability should be written in. Shall we go with the 3/5 majority that seemes to be so fashionable these days?

Any citizen may poll a referendum to override a Minister's Decision. 3/5 of the votes entered must be in favor of override for the Minister's Decision to be overturned; until that time, the Minister's Decision stands.

I guess a referendum could be ok – but in practice, these kinds of long-term decisions will probably be discussed during the election cycle… the election then serves as a referendum on what to do.

That said, there's no reason we couldn't have a constitutional provision for a referendum.

I like Peter's proposal a lot. It could easily go in Section IV.

Good thought DaveMcW!

I'll go ahead and add it to the constitution, but anyone with a differing opinion, please feel free to speak up!

I'd go with simple (51%) majority for referendum.

I realize it became an issue with one of our polls not having a set close date, do we need to install a timeline on referendums and for that matter all public opinion polls?

By timeline a mean a minimum time which it must be open for, as well as a maximum time it can be open for.

The reason for this being conceivably with no time minimum I could open a poll at a strategic time when no one is around, have it close 30 min later while I was the only one who voted thus declaring the descision made? (BTW I wouldn't do this but it is a funny thought :lol: ) Or does all this sort of stuff fall on the president?

I think a supermajority should be required for any referendums. If for no other reason than sheer practicality, the Officers will be more up-to-date and informed about what's going on in the game (on average) than any other citizens.

The reason we're electing Ministers in the first place is to place the responsibility for making informed decisions into the hands of a few people who can most effectively do it.

If we allow a 51% over-ride, then why even have ministers? We could literally poll every single decision that needs to be made… but that would be cumbersome, tiresome, and impractical.
By setting the referendum override standard higher, we limit its use to disagreements that are severe – but not severe enough to warrant an impeachment or recall. We also reduce the need for a lot of senseless polling every time 2 or 3 citizens decide they just don't like something. If there's a 51% majority, they can already vote themselves into office in the next election (never more than 20 turns away).


As for the polling time window – that's probably a good idea, but as the Constitution is written, it falls under the prevue of the Provost… who will ensure that all elections are fair.
That said, it might be a good idea to have some "minimum standard"… say 48 hours?

Thoughts?

Ok, 3/5 does make more sense. Also,

- Referendums last 48 hours
- Must have exactly 2 choices: "Yes" for the initiative to pass, and "No" for the status quo.

It would be also good to encourage neutral (unbiased) wording, but I wouldn't want the Provost to veto polls over minor wording problems.

Ok - those are all excellent suggestions also Dave.

I'll add this to the "Election Rules" section in Article II...
- All other polls must remain open for at least 48 hours, and have at least 2 choices

and I'll add this to the Provost's job description:
- The Provost is responsible to run and oversee all elections and election nomination threads. He can nullify any polls with excessively biased language, and open a re-poll with more neutral wording.

Look good?

on the 48 hours, I think this is good, but could what I posted here

our strategy to win (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3731626#post3731626)

become an issue?

All other polls must remain open for at least 48 hours, and have at least 2 choices

More a matter of reducing the 'wordiness' and hence the 'ease of use' for our document ... get rid of that since a poll by definition has a minimum of two choices ... just write it as ... POLL POSTING RULES ... any citizen can post a poll but it must have a time limit and be open for a minimum of 2 days.

I just don't want the Constitution to become too bogged down into a pseudo-legal document (or at least make it a little as possible)

EDIT ... changed to 2 days cos the poll options go in days

on the 48 hours, I think this is good, but could what I posted here

our strategy to win (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3731626#post3731626)

become an issue?

In the draft constitution, the foreign minister has total control over treaties, unless the voters hold a referendum to overrule him. So I don't think we will ever be tied down by long polls.

I think, since we haven't had a post on this thread in 2 days, that we should put this constitution to a yes/no ratifying vote.

I also think, that we should require a super-majority for ratification. Say 3/4 or 4/5 of all members that have signed up to this point.

Ok - I'll put up a poll - if it gets voted down... then we'll go back to the drawing board!