First of all, can I say that Plotinus' Rood and the Dragon scenario is excellent. It is the one I've personally played more than any other, especially the new updated version. It's also the reason for this thread: I've become **inspired**!!

I've been basically a modmaker without a mod to make lately :ack: and have investigated the possibility of Anno Imperii and Pharaoh. These have been somewhat interesting (and I'll be completing any units I created along the way soon and releasing them to the community), but they've left me a little...well...not exactly gripped with excitement about their creation. I'd already done Anno Domini and to be fair, Anno Imperii was becoming a replica of that rather than a mod in its own right, even with the specialisation of the different civilizations. Ares has made some excellent terrain graphics, so once I've done the units I've been working on, I'll look to do a quick update to Anno Domini including all the new graphics.

However, back to Plotinus' mod. I'm very interested in British history, particularly from around the time of Boudicca up to the Norman conquest. The Rood and the Dragon has different kingdoms of the British Isles battling for domination in Britain itself before facing the onslaught of the Vikings. All very interesting stuff!! However, what I'd like to do is go back to pre-Romans, have a group of tribes who initially fight between themselves before facing the might of the Romans. If the player survives that onslaught, then they're faced with an invasion by the Jutes, Angles and Saxons. Once these guys have finished their assault on the island, the Vikings arrive. The final showdown would be with the Normans.

Here's a list of the suggested civs:

British civs (all playable):
Atrebates
Brigantes
Caledonii
Catuvellauni
Coritani
Dumnonii
Iceni
Ordivices
Parisi
Silures
Trinovantes
Votadini

Invading civs (non-playable):
Angles
Danes
Jutes
Normans
Norse
Romans
Saxons

Leaderheads aren't a problem and neither are units. I could probably get by on what's been made already, but intend to make more of my own.

Here are the suggested eras:
Pre-Roman era : all about the initial settling and growth of the tribes, with the usual border issues. Techs lead to basic military units and improvements; workers learn how to mine and irrigate.
Roman era : The Romans invade. Initially, they're a lot stronger, but eventually they stop sending forces.
Dark Ages : Swarms of different invaders over this era; initially the Angles, Jutes and Saxons, later the Danes and Norse.
Norman era: The Normans invade.

I don't know whether to go for a sort of RFRE-type mod with this; it's appealing, though I'd sooner have a more flexible approach. I'll use Plotinus' method for getting the invaders to have a good "go" at Britannia.

So that's the initial idea. What do you think? Could this be the mod for me to do? I believe it has potential and will allow me a chance to try out a few things I'm actually interested in trying out, but am unsure as to whether or not it would have any appeal to people not from Britain itself.

How would you prevent the Romans invading the Angles instead of Britain?

I like the idea. (Maybe because it's even more reminicent of my favourite boardgame, Britannia, than is Plot's mod.)

I'd suggest a RFRE approach to the techs of the Invading Civs - otherwise it'll be very hard to keep them under anything resembling control. Techs for the British Civs could be more-or-less normal.

I do think there ought be a Pictish civ in there. Will Ireland figure at all?

How would you prevent the Romans invading the Angles instead of Britain?
Roman ships can't cross sea, which the Germanics' lands are surounded by. The Normans are surrounded by ocean, which the Germanics' ships can't cross.

One problem will be that people'll want to invade the Romans' homeland after the Legions go obsolete (or more likely cease to be spawned).

but am unsure as to whether or not it would have any appeal to people not from Britain itself.

I think it'll appeal to people not from Britian. I'd be interested in playing it.:)
I think it sounds great.:goodjob: I think that the most important thing though is if it inspires you to make it, which it obviously does.

All the invading civs would be located off the map in an area that the player could not enter. They would have separate small islands. However, they would all have separate tech trees set up which, whilst allowing them to build a sizeable army, wouldn't allow them to build any ships until a point that is right for the game. Perhaps each city should be an island and that sea bombardment or amphibious attacks just isn't an option. Another possibility is that I provide each civ with non-moving and non-costing personnel which inhabit each square - or I could just make the coastline impassable. That way they just can't be invaded (or so I think!) As per Plotinus' plan, the British Isles would have three useful (but hidden to the inhabitants) resources deep in its territory that the attacking civs actually need to build a super unit, causing the draw to fight Britons rather than each other....at least that's what I'm hoping! Obviously, it's going to take some trying out to figure a way of doing this most effectively.

@TLC : I read that in 306, Eumenius described all the northern tribes as "Caledonii and other Picts," so I assumed from that that the Caledonii were a Pictish tribe. I'm by no means an expert though!

Eumenius was right, insofarthat the Romans used "Picti" as a catch-all term for all the various barbarians of the border. Then again, the label "Caledonii", altho apparently properly the name of a single "Pictish" tribe, was also often used indiscriminately for all nothern barbarians. However, only the name Picts seem to be used for post-Roman times, so it might be more appropriate.

In northernmost Scotland, there lived the "Broch Builders", a people archaeologically distinct to your typical Picts - in the Britannia game, the name "Caledonians" is expropriated for these people. You could do the same if you wanted multiple powers in Scotland.

A map that might be useful:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v192/tlc49/britannia.jpg
(Yes, it's in Swedish, but I think you'll manage. :))

Thanks for the map; I already had one, but the more the merrier :) . I was thinking of sticking with the Caledonii just so that all the tribes/civs retained their original names. I'm also trying to put in as many early names for the cities as possible. I am researching a few different sources available on the net for those. The tribes aren't set in stone though. I felt twelve was about the right amount for the map and I tried to chose them from all over the map. However, it all depends on how much information is available for each one!

and I was looking forward to invading briton as Rome, or when its done reverse engineer it to be Rome.

I agree with Grandraem.

Raiding my archives, I find that I've already got a set of provisional leaderheads sorted out. All of these (except the two Firaxis ones) are what I've either done for Anno Domini or previous sets. The Firaxis leaderheads have ancient pcxs which I did for Plotinus' Rood and the Dragon scenario. Naturally, I plan to make a handful of replacements, but this is the "work in progress" initial set.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Britons.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Invaders.jpg

Also raiding the archives, there are quite a number of units that can be used, not least the new Iceni range I'm working on at the moment. There's also three Saxon units and three Norse units I made for Anno Domini which will prove useful.

For the Romans, I'd suggest the legions are spawned by improvments only available in the Roman homeland (via resource in radius requirements), whereas in Britannia they can only build auxiliaries. :)

This all looks very interesting, and I'm most flattered to be cited as an influence!

I agree that there's no reason to suppose that this would be interesting only to the British (after all, most Britons are pretty ignorant about this stuff anyway). I was interested in the Sengoku Conquest, which is what gave me the initial idea to make my Anglo-Saxon scenario. And I'm not Japanese.

My main reservation is that you're going to have your work cut out making all those different civs invade Britain. I found it very difficult to persuade the Vikings to do it in my mod, despite using every trick I could think of, and in the revision it felt that the more I did to encourage them to invade, the less inclined to do so they were. I think it's going to be hard to get not just one civ but wave upon wave of attackers to do it. I agree that you're going to need to use techs to time the various invasions properly, but that shouldn't be so tricky. The hard part is getting the AI to behave in the way that you want. How I wish Firaxis had created some tools to do this more easily.

I suspect that each group of invaders will have to be in a locked alliance. Otherwise, the Angles and Jutes (for example) might go to war with each other, if they perceive each other as their greatest rivals. Even if they can't actually land on each other's territory, I bet they would still try. Not exactly historical, of course, but if these civs are non-playable and there simply as threats to the player, this is no big problem. TLC's point about different kinds of marine tiles separating the different groups of invaders seems the way forward.

You might also need to think about what directions these invaders are coming from. If they're all coming from the east and south, that is going to put players who choose a civ in those parts of Britain at something of a disadvantage. After all, Caesar and Hengist both landed in Kent (Caesar's camp, or something that claims to be it, is still visible on the hill by my home town, and there used to be two ferries called Hengist and Horsa that sailed from the harbour there...)! And William landed in Sussex (he had worse taste than the others, obviously). This was one reason I decided not to include the Normans in my scenario. It needn't be a disadvantage, though, provided you make it clear that there's going to be an extra challenge for players who choose vulnerable locations. Perhaps you could even it out by ensuring that these areas have superior terrain to the others (which in fact they do, I suppose).

One other thing, of course, is that it's going to be very unhistorical if the aim is for the player to control a pre-Roman civ all the way through to the Norman conquest! Although of course you could argue that the Celtic fringes remained essentially pre-Roman to that period and beyond, so if the player were controlling a Welsh civ it could be sort of historical. Then the final nemesis would be Edward I. Actually, I've sometimes thought that an Edward I scenario would be rather fun (you'd get to squish Mel Gibson), but perhaps that's a project for another day.

Anyway, those are my initial thoughts. I'll definitely be watching this one...

@Plot: What have you set the OCN in Rood? It occurs to me that setting it higher would probably make the Vikings more expansionist. (Posting from uni, so I can't check in the biq.)

Of course, this is relevant also to R8XFT's project. :)

I never touched the OCN, something that I have never particularly understood. Your idea is interesting - now I'm going to have to try it out!

R8XFT - one thing I would recommend is trying to get the "invasion" business more or less sorted out as soon as possible, since it's going to provide the framework for the whole game. That is, rather than spend a long time fine-tuning the tech tree, units, etc and *then* trying to get the invasions working properly, it would make more sense to focus on the invasions right from the start and integrate them into the game as you're putting it together. The main reason for this is that it takes *so long* to do this. Most of the time it took to do the revision to my scenario was spent just playing the game, in order to see if the latest attempt to coax out the Vikings had worked - because, of course, it comes fairly late in the game, and you have to play all the way through to see if it's working properly. So with three waves of invasions, I predict that you'll be spending much more time testing than might be usual! Of course, this has a positive side too, since it means that everything else is likely to be perfect because you'll have played through it so often. But it's a hassle like you wouldn't believe.

I never touched the OCN, something that I have never particularly understood. Your idea is interesting - now I'm going to have to try it out!
Here's hoping it gets the Danish and Norse gentlemen a greater sense of urgency! :thumbsup:

Thanks for the tips! I'll definately work on the invasions first then. I was thinking that I could have an area on the map that's off-limits to British civs (hence you can't see their homelands), which could be surrounded by impassable water. There could be one single-tile wide thoroughfare which took ships through a single-tile, well garrisoned island belonging to the same civ. That way, no-one else could enter the homeland. I think that locked alliances are a necessity in the game itself. All the invading civs will have to have aggression level 5 as well. I was going to go for the "we have resources you need for your super soldier trick"....does that work at all?

Sounds like a very promicing scenario. I'd definatley suggest adding in some Irish civ(s) and some more Scottish civs. Maybe have some Picts more violent to give the North a bit of a Headache?...

I'm thinking about having the two Scottish civs as non-player civs who are nothing but trouble to the North. I aim for that to balance out the fact that the Romans and Normans should start off their invasion in the South.

One thing I aim to carry through from the Anno Imperii plans is the idea of making each civ "special" in some way, ie beyond just the traits. We'll probably have a civ that's very good defensively, another that's a trader extraordinaire, yet another, a great builder, etc. The traits will be renamed in the same manner as I was planning before (in Anno Imperii) as well.

Irish civs.....not sure at the moment to be honest!

There could be one single-tile wide thoroughfare which took ships through a single-tile, well garrisoned island belonging to the same civ. That way, no-one else could enter the homeland.

That is very clever. I think that would work well.

[EDIT] Actually, you might need to make the island wider than the thoroughfare. That is, if the thoroughfare goes from north to south, make the island one tile thick from north to south but several tiles long from east to west. The reason for this is that the AI is quite capable of moving its ships through marine tiles that they can't finish on, provided that they finish on a correct tile (ie, no suicide Curraghs). Thus, if the island were only one square in total, I can imagine rival civs just sending their ships around it.

All the invading civs will have to have aggression level 5 as well.

Yes, definitely.


I was going to go for the "we have resources you need for your super soldier trick"....does that work at all?

It helps, but it is by no means a guarantee. I'm going to try TLC's OCN tip and see if that is useful too.

Heres an idea for you R8XFT, I think you'll like it.

In the Empire Earth series, they have a series of single player campaigns which contain about 8 stages each. Each campaign focuses on one particular civ, and each stage basically represents the defining moments of that civilization threwout history. For example, the German campaign in Empire Earth 2 focuses on from the first stage in ancient times of the Goths and other germanic tribes all the way to the final stage during the Second World War I believe( i confess i haven't played all the way threw yet).

[EDIT] Actually, you might need to make the island wider than the thoroughfare. That is, if the thoroughfare goes from north to south, make the island one tile thick from north to south but several tiles long from east to west. The reason for this is that the AI is quite capable of moving its ships through marine tiles that they can't finish on, provided that they finish on a correct tile (ie, no suicide Curraghs). Thus, if the island were only one square in total, I can imagine rival civs just sending their ships around it.
Having the thoroughfare thru an island doesn't work, since islands are necessarily surrounded by coast. You'd need to have it as an opening in a wall of mountains or the like.

Instead of that island, use a 0 movement non-disbandable 99-defense ship from the civ in question.

I've an idea for an interesting twist to this scenario.

Instead of playing one of the British tribes, you start off as either Angle, Jute or Saxon with a limited invasion force to invade Britain who already has it's various civs set up (arguably all allied) each having a few cities. There's no clear area for settlers to settle peacefully. After a fierce battle, you establish some homeland before being invaded yourself by Danes, Norse and eventually Normans.

Anyone any thoughts?

That would be alot easier to do, I should think.

Ooooh, good idea! I want to play as Saxon. I love Darth Bob`s avatar :evil:

I believe it's more do-able and will make it more historically accurate. It might even become a choice of Saxons only, with the Jutes and Angles invading as well. How would I set this up so that Jutes and Angles invaded? The first turn would be with you (as the Saxons) having a small invasion force (plus a settler) somewhere in the South; the Jutes having the same somewhere in Kent and the Angles being similarly equipped in the North. I was then thinking about locked alliances as follows:
Alliance 1 : All British civs - at war with everyone else.
Alliance 2 : Angles and Jutes - at war with alliance 1 and 3.
Alliance 3 : Danes, Norse and Normans - at war with everyone else.
Alliance 4 : Saxons - at war with alliance 1 and 3.
I believe that should mean that the Angles and Jutes will automatically start fighting in their areas and settling along the land. Obviously, it'll take some playtesting to get things such has size of invading force right. I'm hoping that it helps the prompt for the Danes, Norse and Normans to invade when ready as well. Seeing as they're in a locked alliance, I should think I don't need to worry about them invading each other. Please let me know if I'm wrong.
The Angles and Jutes aren't set up to be at war with the Saxons, I felt it should be up to the player to decide that. The only problem with this set-up is that should the player declare war on one of these, it inevitably means war on both, so I might need to give this a re-think. I'm open to any suggestions.
There is the possibility, when doing mods that involve only one civ, to have multiple choices for the leader, which I feel make it more interesting. Instead of plumping squarely for the Saxons, you have the choice, for example, of the Militaristic and Expansionist leader or the Agricultural and Industrious leader. I'll be thinking about this as well :) . Again, any suggestions will be gratefully received.

This certainly sounds a little more manageable (not to mention more realistic). Presumably this means there are no Romans in the mix. The alliance system sounds sensible, too, and I believe it would work in the way you describe. I think it might be fun to start actually in Saxony and have to organise the invasion of Britain rather than simply starting there, but perhaps that would be too complicated. My only caveat is that it now sounds very like my scenario, at least in subject and scope - which doesn't bother me, but you might want to think about what makes yours distinct! I think at least the alliance systems - and playing just "Saxons" - gives it a bit of a broader sweep, not to mention bringing the Normans into it.

Just wanted to pop in to register my interest, support and anticipation for this project. I don't have any thoughts as yet, other than it sounds like a great scenario idea with a nice varied scope of phases. All the best with it and I'll post ideas for its development as and when I can.

This certainly sounds a little more manageable (not to mention more realistic). Presumably this means there are no Romans in the mix. The alliance system sounds sensible, too, and I believe it would work in the way you describe. I think it might be fun to start actually in Saxony and have to organise the invasion of Britain rather than simply starting there, but perhaps that would be too complicated. My only caveat is that it now sounds very like my scenario, at least in subject and scope - which doesn't bother me, but you might want to think about what makes yours distinct! I think at least the alliance systems - and playing just "Saxons" - gives it a bit of a broader sweep, not to mention bringing the Normans into it.
Plotinus, you're right. It is, however, intended to go across a larger timescale than your scenario; as well as the Norman interest, there's the fact that the player is starting off on an inhabited island at a point in history prior to the start of your scenario. That said, however, there'll be a lot of similarities - which in a lot of respects can't be a bad thing ;) . I like the idea of actually planning an invasion, but the only problem I have with that is the fact that the player would need also to manage cities "back home" in Saxony. I suppose in theory, I could make Saxony at the edge of the map, with room only for a certain number of cities, from which the desire to expand comes. I would suggest (if I went down that route) that there could be a certain strategic resource available in each area (but in abundance) for which there's a need for cities to have in their borders to build particular buildings. This would make some only available to Saxons who have settled in Britain and others only available to Saxon cities in Saxony. I could arrange it, for example, so that no units can be built in the first era at all, but that Saxony has a resource required for buildings which generate settlers and military units every so many turns. Upon arrival in Ancient Britain, the Saxons would therefore rely on more troops (and settlers) being sent from Saxony to assist in the effort to gain a foothold in Britannia until such time that new techs exist that allow them to build units on British soil. There could then be a tech that "breaks the link" between the Saxons in the homeland and British Saxons. At this point, all buildings that can be built in Saxony become obsolete, the only thing being able to be built there being Wealth (which could be set to a high requirement of shields). Remember that the units come from buildings generating them and that those buildings have just become obsolete. That would then force the player to essentially abandon any interest in Saxony and concentrate upon Britain.

I'd suggest making "Saxony" a single-tile island with a city on, which an invasion force is assembled at the scenario's start. Similarly for "Angeln", "Jutland", "Scandinavia", and "Normandy". The cities would have no function beyond making the civs survive till they have 'stablished themselves in Britain.

I'd suggest making "Saxony" a single-tile island with a city on, which an invasion force is assembled at the scenario's start. Similarly for "Angeln", "Jutland", "Scandinavia", and "Normandy". The cities would have no function beyond making the civs survive till they have 'stablished themselves in Britain.
Whilst that's a good suggestion, for the Saxons, it takes away the notion of having to manage your Civ III economy and actually get to a stage where you can have an invasion force built up. If we're going to invade Britain from turn one, the invasion force might as well be already on the shores of Britain at the start of the game.

The player will be given the choice of one of four Saxon kings to play (there will only be one Saxon civ in the game, but there will be four choices of leader). Which four though? Here's one suggestion (remember I'm messing about with the traits as well):
Ethelberht : Spiritual (cheaper churches/religious buildings) and Philosophical (rename of Scientific)
Hengist : Agricultural (as per normal Agricultural) and Seafaring (as per normal seafaring, but includes cheaper ships)
Alfred : Political (cheaper courthouses/war weariness buildings and no anarchy when government changes) and Commercial (as per normal Commercial)
Penda : Aggressive (name change from Militaristic) and Industrious (as per normal Industrious)

Sounds good! Go Normans go! ;)

Wonders and buildings.
Plotinus' "Rood and the Dragon" has several buildings/wonders that can be used; I'm definately using "Bede's History of the English," "Beowulf" and "Sutton Hoo." I'll ensure that the native Britons can build Stonehenge and any other wonders of their era.

I was thinking that there could be a Norman "Bayeaux tapestry" victory (obviously which the player will wish to avoid) which replaces the space race victory. For this, they only have to build one "spaceship" part, the Bayeaux tapestry itself.

Any thoughts?

Sounds a good idea. The player would have to attack the city building the tapestry. Although wasn't the tapestry actually made in France?

Maybe the Domesday Book might be a better victory build for the Normans.

Sounds a good idea. The player would have to attack the city building the tapestry. Although wasn't the tapestry actually made in France?

Maybe the Domesday Book might be a better victory build for the Normans.
I concur :) .

ROME RULES!!!! but still I like this Idea.

:bump:

Is this scenario still alive? :)