Avatars:

[tab]+%Avatar of Wrath (skin by C.Roland)- Requires 2 Chaos
[tab]+%Meshabber of Dis (skin by C.Roland)- Requires 2 Entropy
[tab]+%The Mithril Golem (skin by Kael)- Requires 2 Earth


Religious Heroes:

[tab]+%Arthendain (skin by C.Roland)- Runes of Kilmorph
[tab]+%Bambur (skin by C.Roland)- Runes of Kilmorph
[tab]+%Hemah (skin by C.Roland)- Octopus Overlords
[tab]+%Kithra Kyriel (skin by C.Roland)- Fellowship of Leaves
[tab]+%Mardero (skin and model by White Rabbit)- The Ashen Veil
[tab]+%Rosier the Fallen (skin by Kael)- The Ashen Veil
[tab]+%Saverous (skin by C.Roland)- Octopus Overlords
[tab]+%Sphener (skin and model by White Rabbit)- The Order
[tab]+%Valin Phanuel (skin by Kael)- The Order
[tab]+Yvain the Wood Elf- Fellowship of Leaves

Civilization Heroes:

Bannor:

[tab]+%Donal Lugh (skin by C.Roland)- General that gains the ability to recruit after he kills a demon or undead, has the Guardsman ability and can cast Hope.

Malakim:

[tab]+%Chalid Astrakein (skin and model by Chalid)

Elohim:

[tab]+Corlindale- Has the Peace ability (sacrifices himself to end all wars between his civs and all other civs except the barbarians)

Mercurians:

[tab]+%Basium (skin and model by C.Roland)- Never one to sit back Basium will join his units on the front line. If he is killed the Mercurians lose their traits.

Luchuirp:

[tab]+Barnaxus- "Living" golem. Barnaxus is able to gain promotions. If Barnaxus has Combat I all golems in his empire have Combat I. The same goes for Combat II - V.

Kuriotates:

[tab]+%Eurabatres (skin by C.Roland, model by Chalid)- Gold dragon

Ljosalfar:

[tab]+%Gilden Silveric (skin by C.Roland)

Khazad:

[tab]+%Maros (skin by C.Roland)

Sidar:

[tab]+Rathus Denmora (skin by GarretSidzaka, Model by seZereth)- Anti-hero assassin (Loki)

Lanun:

[tab]+The Dark Wind- Pirate hero (Loki)
[tab]+Guybrush- Boarding party hero (Loki)

Grigori:

[tab]+Adventurer(s)- The Grigori don't have specific heroes, instead they spawn heroes as great people

Hippus:

[tab]+%Magnadine (skin and model by SeZereth)- Mercenary hero

Amurites:

[tab]+Govannon- Can train living non-animal allied units to cast Dance of Blades, Escape, Haste and Raise Skeleton. (Psychorg)

Doviello:

[tab]+%The War Machine (skin and model by Chalid)- Big, powerful and capturable

Balseraphs:

[tab]+%Loki (skin and model by Chalid)- Acts as a gypsy wagon with a few mind and chaos spells. Loki runs away when attacked, meaning he has to be cornered or surrounded to be killed. (Loki)

Clan of Embers:

[tab]+Rantine- can convert barbarin cities to his empire if he is the strongest unit in that city. (woodelf)

Svartalfar:

[tab]+%Kael Coalbane (skin by C.Roland)

Calabim:

[tab]+%Losha Valas (skin and model by C.Roland)- Gains immortality each time she kills a living unit. (Loki)

Sheaim:

[tab]+%Abashi (skin by C.Roland, model by Chalid)- Black dragon

Infernal:

[tab]Hyborem- Like Basium, Hyborem can be built as a unit. If he is killed the cities revolt and the trait bonus's are lost. If Hyborem is killed he leaves fallout in all tiles in a 1 tile radius.

Illians:

[tab]+%Wilboman- Frost Giant (skin and model by SeZereth)


Other Heroes:

[tab]+%Acheron (skin by C.Roland, model by Chalid)- Barbarian Red Dragon. Immobile, guards the Dragons Horde.
[tab]+%Baron Duin Halfmorn (skin by C.Roland, Model by White Rabbit)
[tab]+%Orthus, Barbarian King (skin and model by Chalid)- Barbarian Hero
[tab]+%Trojan Horse (skin and model by Chalid)- Can transport units and travel in rival territory
[tab]+Typhoid Mary- Can summon plague rats

Fellowship of the Leaves Treant hero that can only be gained if he spawns from Ancient Forests to replace Kithra. (Psychic Llamas)

Do you have some dreamed up for each Civ or are they Religion based? Are they going to be built like before, be freed in quests, show up randomly via Python, ect? I love Heroes!

Do you have some dreamed up for each Civ or are they Religion based? Are they going to be built like before, be freed in quests, show up randomly via Python, ect? I love Heroes!

I want a hero for each civ. Some will be early game, some will be late game. The fact that the civ only gets one and they get them at different times will help differentiate them.

The only ones I have drempt up are listed in the civ thread. Ill try to get them moved over here soon. We need to come up with a lot of new heroes.

Will there be the ability to resurrect a fallen Hero, albeit at 0 xp?

I like the ability to ressurect a fallen hero idea. Make it require a special building to be built (national wonder-altar of heroes), and have them start over again on xp like woodelf said. Make sure that a blood of the pheonix ressurection takes priority though.

I think this could be okay for a pretty high end ability. Im hoping to make players have to decide what kind of magic they want to be able to access by the type of imrovement they build on Mana Nodes. Maybe this would be a wonder that is available only if they have 3 Life Nodes available (along with the other requirements).

I wouldn't want to be an easy thing, I never want players to shrug off the death of a hero.

Maybe you could sacrifice x percent of your population or something to bring him/her back. Something BIG, but not too big.

I like the population sacrifice idea. Throw in the special building, then sacrifice some population, and you're still pretty ticked off if you lose your hero, but you can get him back at a high cost.

3 life nodes sounds like an awfull lot, especially if mana nodes spawn like reagents or mithril. My current game is a huge map, and I have only 1 mithril- though I have 4 reagents now, but that's because I'm going for domination and have 35% of the land area (yes domination on huge is insane, but I figure that the more there is, the more chances there are for things to go wrong-though on the bright side- it's year 500 and I'm on future tech 10 :P). I've played entire games without access to either resource.

I think that we should add in a plethora of heros, weak and strong, each with their own quest.

Mercenary Chief = Build him a horde of experienced mercenaries, and get a lot of gold.
Lord Angel = Destroy the demon civ in hell
Shadowman = Use shadow man to assasinate some other hero
Sir Privateer = Use him to capture much gold in a short amount of time

You could always let the national heroes be the national leaders incarnate.
As far as resurrection goes: If it requires a tech to do, the tech would probably be a fairly late one. That would make resurrection infinitely more valuable to those who get late-game heroes than to those who get their heroes early on. I'm afraid that might screw the game balance in an uncomfortable way.

You could always let the national heroes be the national leaders incarnate.
As far as resurrection goes: If it requires a tech to do, the tech would probably be a fairly late one. That would make resurrection infinitely more valuable to those who get late-game heroes than to those who get their heroes early on. I'm afraid that might screw the game balance in an uncomfortable way.

I disliek the idea of ressurection. If your hero dies, too bad for you.

However, I really, really like the idea of the civ heros being the leaders. !!!

Added Losha using Loki's idea for the unit that gains immortality when it kills units.

I think that the lanun should get two heros. A pirate and his ship.
The ship would be able to sail around and attack any rival at will, without causing war.
This pirate would be an improved boarding party basically.

I think that the lanun should get two heros. A pirate and his ship.
The ship would be able to sail around and attack any rival at will, without causing war.
This pirate would be an improved boarding party basically.

Me too, I also think the Grigori should have 2 since they probably won't be using the religion heroes.

Lots of Ideas:
Grigori 2 is an Assasin that can stealth attack enemy religious units and gets a bonus aginst them. Invisible.

Bannor-A mid game unit that reduces war weariness for your country each time he kills a living enemy. Also, when he levels up a random city gets a celebration.

Balseraphs-A unit with a bunch of unique abilities.
a)can build permanent carnivals in rival cities. +1 happy for the city, and 20% of the city's money goes to your treasury. Building these doesn't kill him.
b)he can build the improvement--groteusque art. Gives all balseraphs UU's that can see it a +25% bonus.

Ljosfar-Make one of the current fellowship heros into this guy, and replace him with another angel, preferably a very powerful late game one.

Lots of Ideas:
Grigori 2 is an Assasin that can stealth attack enemy religious units and gets a bonus aginst them. Invisible.

This will probably be reserved for the sidar and svaltarfar civs which are more about being hidden.

Bannor-A mid game unit that reduces war weariness for your country each time he kills a living enemy. Also, when he levels up a random city gets a celebration.

I think the Bannor hero will be a General unit that gives bonus's to all the units around him. Maybe a defensive boost to anyone in his tile?

Balseraphs-A unit with a bunch of unique abilities.
a)can build permanent carnivals in rival cities. +1 happy for the city, and 20% of the city's money goes to your treasury. Building these doesn't kill him.
b)he can build the improvement--groteusque art. Gives all balseraphs UU's that can see it a +25% bonus.

I like the idea of making the Balseraph hero a non-fighter, an artist who can travel in rival territory's like you say. Maybe with some limited spells.

Ljosfar-Make one of the current fellowship heros into this guy, and replace him with another angel, preferably a very powerful late game one.

I agree, but probably not an angel. Maybe the Hunt as the Fellowships 2nd hero.

If anyone would like a hero named after them or someone close to them let me know what the name is and if you have a civilization you would prefer to go with. Im cool with it as long as it is a fantasy sounding name. I think Loki would be a good name for the Balseraph hero.

But Corlindale, Wilboman, Roland, Talchas, Lunargent and Chalid could all make good fantasy names. Let me know if you want them in.

Interesting bit of trivia, there is obviously a "Kael" in the game already. That unit isn't named after me, Im actually named after him. When I started posting on forums and playing online games I used the name of one of the NPC's from my D&D game to go by. Strange but true.

But Corlindale, Wilboman, Roland, Talchas, Lunargent and Chalid could all make good fantasy names. Let me know if you want them in.

Interesting bit of trivia, there is obviously a "Kael" in the game already. That unit isn't named after me, Im actually named after him. When I started posting on forums and playing online games I used the name of one of the NPC's from my D&D game to go by. Strange but true.
Huh, same for me. Talchas was the name of my character in a mmorpg, and I started using it for forums and other logins. As far as a unit goes, you can use it if you want, but I don't really care.

Yeah, I got Loki from Norse Mythology (duh), but I use it as my screenname in most games.
I think that having the Balseraph hero be Loki would be a nice idea ;).

For the amurites i thought it would be cool if they got a spellcaster hero that was there for the entire game (if he lived). Basically, once they got the first religion tech they could build their spellcaster, and he'd be like an adept but stronger and with the heroic promotion. Then once they got the mage tech he'd automatically get sor II. When the amurites researched the archmage tech their hero would automatically get sor III.

Also, for malakim i had an idea for a Spellcaster riding an elephant. High strength and spellcasting obviously. But what makes him so cool is that whenever he kills a unit (with a spell or in normal combat) the space where the enemy died and all adjacent to it are revealed ofr the malakim player for 10 turns.

I agree, but probably not an angel. Maybe the Hunt as the Fellowships 2nd hero.

What is the hunt? Sounds great and I think it should be the fellowship hero.

I think that both Hyborem and Basium should be extra strong, because it would really stink if they died.

Perhaps the avatars should require 3 of their mana? Its just that I think you would need to specialize your nodes to be able to get one of the final spells.

I think that the meshabber of Bis should also require a fire. I mean look at that aura.

Added Donal Lugh as the new Bannor hero.

I have an idea for the Hippus Hero. What if he were a powerful mercenary cheif that could "summon" mercenaries that lasted for a turn. In addition to this he would get high movement. The super ability is that each time he died you got the opportunity to "buy him back" by paying a lot of gold. If you do he is reborn in your capital. If you choose no then any other opponenet may buy him. If no one buys him he is forever killed, but as long as any player has enough gold this guy will remain, getting bigger and bigger.

For the other fellowship hero, maybe a Druid type with some uber spellcasting abilities specializing in creation, life, and nature magic.

If anyone would like a hero named after them or someone close to them let me know what the name is and if you have a civilization you would prefer to go with. Im cool with it as long as it is a fantasy sounding name. I think Loki would be a good name for the Balseraph hero.

But Corlindale, Wilboman, Roland, Talchas, Lunargent and Chalid could all make good fantasy names. Let me know if you want them in.


Actually Chalid Astrakein was a character I played for some years in a Life Action Roleplaying Game. He might be a descent Hero as he was quite heroic. ;)
He came from an Order of War Magicans which had the goal to uphold balance between the good and evil forces. The Order was loosley based on ancient Egypt Mythology worshipping an Snake Goddess and was split into two fractions that fought against each other merciless. The fraction Chalid was in held the opinion that upholding balance could only be archived by fighting the evil as humans more often create bad thing than good. The other fraction thought that most humans are good in their heart and so the balance can only be archieved by strenghten the evil.
Finally Chalid died when fighting together with his friends against superior forces of werewolve like creatures as he preferred to save two healers instead of himself.

The guy might be suitable for the sun-religion you are planning on the Light release or for the Malakim, and combine fighting power (I'd like to do the model) with some magic abilities.

Actually Chalid Astrakein was a character I played for some years in a Life Action Roleplaying Game. He might be a descent Hero as he was quite heroic. ;)
He came from an Order of War Magicans which had the goal to uphold balance between the good and evil forces. The Order was loosley based on ancient Egypt Mythology worshipping an Snake Goddess and was split into two fractions that fought against each other merciless. The fraction Chalid was in held the opinion that upholding balance could only be archived by fighting the evil as humans more often create bad thing than good. The other fraction thought that most humans are good in their heart and so the balance can only be archieved by strenghten the evil.
Finally Chalid died when fighting together with his friends against superior forces of werewolve like creatures as he preferred to save two healers instead of himself.

The guy might be suitable for the sun-religion you are planning on the Light release or for the Malakim, and combine fighting power (I'd like to do the model) with some magic abilities.

Sounds good, Chalid Astrakein will be the Malakim hero. A warrior/caster just as you said.

Another random thought: As heros are so valuable how about giving them something like a "second chance" or "Lucky" promotion at their creation. It should work like immortality but with a smaller chance say 25%. So if you loose a hero due to stupidity or bad luck you have a chance to get him back. On the other side 25% are small enough to not intentionally suicide him.

Another random thought: As heros are so valuable how about giving them something like a "second chance" or "Lucky" promotion at their creation. It should work like immortality but with a smaller chance say 25%. So if you loose a hero due to stupidity or bad luck you have a chance to get him back. On the other side 25% are small enough to not intentionally suicide him.

Heroes are a pretty improtant strategic consideration. I hate to have something like that tied to random chance. I don't think it would be very appealing for a player to plan to trap and kill an AI hero only to have him reappear.

Hmm year you are right about that. I hadn't thought about having Heroes as primary enemies.. I fear its time to actually play another game instead of making building ^^

But if we take his promotions and XPs from him, it might actually add fun as the revived hero would not make much difference at least in that war. (Exception the Baron...)

Corlindale might be a fitting hero for the Elohim civilization. He's a pacifist mage I've been playing in various CRPG's.

I've been thinking a bit of how to fit him in lore-wise, and I thought he might be a former Amurite who'd abandoned his studies of magic in protest against its application in warfare, and subsequently joined the Elohim. Inspired by their teachings, he went so far as swearing a solemn oath of pacifism, and devoted his life to study of the kind of magic which would help him, and the Elohim, to this end.(I can write some extensive flavour text later)
I view Corlindale as somewhat of a trickster - he uses his magic to confound, annoy and discourage enemy attackers, but never resorts to violence(strength 0). He should have a useful array of spells to compensate for this. I browsed the spell lists for stuff that might fit him and be useful, and found these: Charm Person, spells of the dimensional sphere, Tremor, Entangle and the shadow sphere spells. Obviously he shouldn't have all of these, but at least invisibility and charm person I think would fit him well.

I also thought up a few unique custom spells for him:
1. Pacify - Chance of turning target military unit into a worker unit permanently(probably a pretty low % rating).
2. Disintegrate Weapons - Target military unit has its strength reduced by a % amount by the condition "unarmed". Condition is removed if the unit enters a friendly city with a barracks. Monks, animals and golems are immune to this.
3. Song of Peace - For the next turn, within the Elohim borders, no units can attack, neither friend or foe.

Given his peaceful nature, an enemy civ who slays him in cold blood should gain a reputation penalty with all good civs, possibly also a smaller one with neutral civs.

Corlindale might be a fitting hero for the Elohim civilization. He's a pacifist mage I've been playing in various CRPG's.

I've been thinking a bit of how to fit him in lore-wise, and I thought he might be a former Amurite who'd abandoned his studies of magic in protest against its application in warfare, and subsequently joined the Elohim. Inspired by their teachings, he went so far as swearing a solemn oath of pacifism, and devoted his life to study of the kind of magic which would help him, and the Elohim, to this end.(I can write some extensive flavour text later)
I view Corlindale as somewhat of a trickster - he uses his magic to confound, annoy and discourage enemy attackers, but never resorts to violence(strength 0). He should have a useful array of spells to compensate for this. I browsed the spell lists for stuff that might fit him and be useful, and found these: Charm Person, spells of the dimensional sphere, Tremor, Entangle and the shadow sphere spells. Obviously he shouldn't have all of these, but at least invisibility and charm person I think would fit him well.

Sounds awesome, and perfect for the Elohim. Sounds like he might be a good canidate for the Hope and Inspire spells too. We will probably give him base access to the spheres those spells are in and let the player decide where to upgrade him to see where his spells fall.

I also thought up a few unique custom spells for him:
1. Pacify - Chance of turning target military unit into a worker unit permanently(probably a pretty low % rating).

Great idea for a spell.

2. Disintegrate Weapons - Target military unit has its strength reduced by a % amount by the condition "unarmed". Condition is removed if the unit enters a friendly city with a barracks. Monks, animals and golems are immune to this.

What about having this as a "Rust" spell. I wonder if we shouldn't have it not effect arcane units too but maybe do actual damage to golems.

3. Song of Peace - For the next turn, within the Elohim borders, no units can attack, neither friend or foe.

I may steal this idea for a wonder. Its probably to powerful for a unit ability (unless it killed Corlindale when he did it). But a wonder that lasted for 10-20 turns might be cool.

Given his peaceful nature, an enemy civ who slays him in cold blood should gain a reputation penalty with all good civs, possibly also a smaller one with neutral civs.

I think this would be frustrating and confusing for players who are getting swamped by Elohim attackers and fight back just to have a reputation hit.

I may steal this idea for a wonder. Its probably to powerful for a unit ability (unless it killed Corlindale when he did it). But a wonder that lasted for 10-20 turns might be cool.


Make it a project to get rid of the SDI (if you havent already gotten rid of it).
Actually we might incorporate several major spells that are only active for medium intervalls as projects.

I took Lunargent from mage the awakening. It's a name for one of the towers of magic, the lunargent thorn, governing fate and time magic. If it were to be used, it would be best used as a caster hero with the spheres of enchantment and metamagic. I need to think a bit more before I flesh him out, I still have Oblivion on the brain and must swtich gears a bit.

I have an idea for the Hippus Hero. What if he were a powerful mercenary cheif that could "summon" mercenaries that lasted for a turn. In addition to this he would get high movement. The super ability is that each time he died you got the opportunity to "buy him back" by paying a lot of gold. If you do he is reborn in your capital. If you choose no then any other opponenet may buy him. If no one buys him he is forever killed, but as long as any player has enough gold this guy will remain, getting bigger and bigger.

I like the idea of a mercenary hero. I think we will need to see how TheLopez's mercenary mod fits in and then develop a hero to work with it. I dont know if the hero will be a mercenary, hire mercenary's for cheap, or flip opponents mercenarys. But we will need something along these lines.

For the other fellowship hero, maybe a Druid type with some uber spellcasting abilities specializing in creation, life, and nature magic.

We need something special here. The elves will lose their chop bonus and are going to need something to help them recover. 0 Movement costs in forests?

A few more thought on Corlindale(yep, I think of myself a lot):

I see your point about song of peace. As I suggested it, one could actually be completely immortal by casting it continuously. I actually think your suggestion about Corlindale sacrificing himself to cast it is a good idea, sort of like sacrificing to GP's for a golden age, you sacrifice Corlindale for 20 turns of guaranteed peace.
This would be very powerful when used correctly, but would also have its drawbacks. When en "Era of Peace" is upon the Elohim lands, no military units may be trained, and no apocalypse wonders built(because it would be too easy to abuse the peace-time to construct a wonder to destroy the world while your enemies are powerless to stop it). I'm not sure whether Arcane units should be considered military for this purpose, since they also do non-wartime spells.
Because of these limitations, an Elohim civ would be very vulnerable once peacetime ended, and therefore it should be used carefully(or abused brutally, if you play against the Elohim).

Secondly, about the Rust spell. It occurs to me that most players will likely use this spell to soften up an enemy unit before ambushing it and taking it out, but the devout pacifist Corlindale would never sanction such usage of the spell. The purpose of it is to force enemies to retreat to their own lands and re-equip, buying time for the Elohim. There are two workarounds of this, as I see it: 1. Units with Rust condition cannot be attacked. The weakness of this is that it doesn't really make sense in realistic terms, and might even allow enemies to abuse the condition to travel across hostile territory. 2. Units with Rust condition can be attacked, but doing so will make you lose Corlindale, as he leaves the Elohim in horror of the misuse of his abilities. This would make the most sense realistically, but might be a bit annoying and hard to comprehend for players not familiar with all the lore.

A few more thought on Corlindale(yep, I think of myself a lot):

I see your point about song of peace. As I suggested it, one could actually be completely immortal by casting it continuously. I actually think your suggestion about Corlindale sacrificing himself to cast it is a good idea, sort of like sacrificing to GP's for a golden age, you sacrifice Corlindale for 20 turns of guaranteed peace.
This would be very powerful when used correctly, but would also have its drawbacks. When en "Era of Peace" is upon the Elohim lands, no military units may be trained, and no apocalypse wonders built(because it would be too easy to abuse the peace-time to construct a wonder to destroy the world while your enemies are powerless to stop it). I'm not sure whether Arcane units should be considered military for this purpose, since they also do non-wartime spells.
Because of these limitations, an Elohim civ would be very vulnerable once peacetime ended, and therefore it should be used carefully(or abused brutally, if you play against the Elohim).

Secondly, about the Rust spell. It occurs to me that most players will likely use this spell to soften up an enemy unit before ambushing it and taking it out, but the devout pacifist Corlindale would never sanction such usage of the spell. The purpose of it is to force enemies to retreat to their own lands and re-equip, buying time for the Elohim. There are two workarounds of this, as I see it: 1. Units with Rust condition cannot be attacked. The weakness of this is that it doesn't really make sense in realistic terms, and might even allow enemies to abuse the condition to travel across hostile territory. 2. Units with Rust condition can be attacked, but doing so will make you lose Corlindale, as he leaves the Elohim in horror of the misuse of his abilities. This would make the most sense realistically, but might be a bit annoying and hard to comprehend for players not familiar with all the lore.

Hard to say, especially since casting rust on a unit should cause a war. Otherwise its to easy to abuse by a player running around rusting all the ai's units during peacetime.

We could block Corlindales spells while his civ is at war. So Corlindale is only really useful if your civ is at peace. Im thinking that the peace spell shouldn't block attacks. Instead it should force peace bewteen the owning player and all other civs and cancel all defensive pacts with the owning player (so they don't get pulled right back in). It would be a get out of jail free card to allow the player to escape from a bad situation.

How about making it so Corlindale can only use his abilities while his civ isn't at war with anyone?

Wouldn't that make him fairly useless except for casting peace-time city boost buffs like any mage can?
In wartime I think he would be most at his guard, being very eager to stop the violence quickly, and attempting to protect his people without compromising his own vow, through the use of aforementioned spells.

Wouldn't that make him fairly useless except for casting peace-time city boost buffs like any mage can?
In wartime I think he would be most at his guard, being very eager to stop the violence quickly, and attempting to protect his people without compromising his own vow, through the use of aforementioned spells.

I edited my post, check and see what you think.

I like the change to Song of Peace, it will probably be much simpler to just force peace and block all war-declaring actions.
But I still fail to see what blocking all his spells in wartime will achive. When is he going to use stuff like Pacify and Charm then? Only against Barbarians?
And I do think Rust should cause a war declaration.

I like the change to Song of Peace, it will probably be much simpler to just force peace and block all war-declaring actions.
But I still fail to see what blocking all his spells in wartime will achive. When is he going to use stuff like Pacify and Charm then? Only against Barbarians?
And I do think Rust should cause a war declaration.

You're right, he should keep his spellcasting.

Pactify is too powerful. I think Charm works better for it from a mechanic perspective (Charm just blocks a units ability to attack, and has a chance to wear off every turn). As is Pacify bacially allows you to destroy a unit, the fact that you get a worker back isn't much recompence (especially since the opposing player will usually steal the worker afterwards).

I just added Corlindale and his peace ability. The more I play with him the more I like him as a special elohim unit. The one time ability to drop out of all wars is perfect for the elohim and is a great strategic option.

I just added Corlindale and his peace ability. The more I play with him the more I like him as a special elohim unit. The one time ability to drop out of all wars is perfect for the elohim and is a great strategic option.

Good to hear:)

What other abilities did you give him? Ability to pick the spheres I mentioned?
I'd still like a few more unique spells for him, and in general I think unique spells for caster heroes would be quite cool to have. I'll try to think of some.

Good to hear:)

What other abilities did you give him? Ability to pick the spheres I mentioned?
I'd still like a few more unique spells for him, and in general I think unique spells for caster heroes would be quite cool to have. I'll try to think of some.

He starts with rank 1 of Earth, Mind and Spirit and can learn up to rank 3 in all three along the sorcery track.

I would definitly love to hear any more ideas you have.

For the Illians, I think that their hero should simply be Auric.
Amurites--Maybe an archmage unit that ideally would be able to learn almost every spell possible.

I put in the Agnostic trait (agnostic leaders cant pick a state religion). This is the Grigori's trait and keeps them from having access to any religious heroes. We also removed the force sphere so the grigori palace no longer gives a mana resource, instead it was giving +2 great engineer points.

To help make the civ interesting I brought back one of our old friends that we never quite found a home for, the Adventurer unit. As it stands the Grigori palace will give +2 adventurer points. The Grigori will also have a civ specific building (the Adventurers Guild) that gives +2 adventurer points. Making the Adventurer a Grigori only unit.

The Adventurer is a hero unit that can be upgraded to a warrior, scout or adept. So bascially it is a "build your own hero". It should allow the Grigori player a lot of flexibility and make the civ interesting to play.

I put in the Agnostic trait (agnostic leaders cant pick a state religion). This is the Grigori's trait and keeps them from having access to any religious heroes. We also removed the force sphere so the grigori palace no longer gives a mana resource, instead it was giving +2 great engineer points.

To help make the civ interesting I brought back one of our old friends that we never quite found a home for, the Adventurer unit. As it stands the Grigori palace will give +2 adventurer points. The Grigori will also have a civ specific building (the Adventurers Guild) that gives +2 adventurer points. Making the Adventurer a Grigori only unit.

The Adventurer is a hero unit that can be upgraded to a warrior, scout or adept. So bascially it is a "build your own hero". It should allow the Grigori player a lot of flexibility and make the civ interesting to play.

I was thinking of giving the Amurites an adventurer spellcaster, but you're right this is more interesting.
Also, I was thinking of something that blocks armegeddon spells for a city. Would this work best as a wonder?

I was thinking of giving the Amurites an adventurer spellcaster, but you're right this is more interesting.
Also, I was thinking of something that blocks armegeddon spells for a city. Would this work best as a wonder?

We had the Metamagic wonder that was supposed to destroy active armageddon spells. But we can do whatever you want including:

1. Have a wonder that protected the building civ from the effects of negative armageddon spells.

2. Have a wonder that destroys all active armageddon spells.

3. Have a wonder that keeps new armageddon spells from being built (and cancels any in the process of being built).

etc etc

What if the Fellowship's second hero is a spellcaster?
So far we only have one religious hero spellcaster, and I think one would fit fellowship nicely. Have him get divine 1-2, sum 1-2, and sor 1-3. But only be able to learn nature, creation, life, earth, and water.

What if the Fellowship's second hero is a spellcaster?
So far we only have one religious hero spellcaster, and I think one would fit fellowship nicely. Have him get divine 1-2, sum 1-2, and sor 1-3. But only be able to learn nature, creation, life, earth, and water.

You right, the fellowship could use a Druid hero.

Okay, so I was going to have The War Machine me a high strength capturable hero. But Chalid went and made a model that is so cool that we definitly need to come up with some cool abilities to match its look. anyone have any ideas?

Hmm. I think the ability to raze what it wants to in a tile would be definately worthwhile, if difficult to implement. The ability to only raze the roads in a tile would be awesome, I think. The ability to bombard cities is a must. The ability to bombard an area, such as a 3x3 block of tiles, would be awesome as well.

In melee, flesh-and-blood enemies that engage it could have a chance to be instantly killed in any combat turn, instead of the normal slow-mutual wear down.

Okay, so I was going to have The War Machine me a high strength capturable hero. But Chalid went and made a model that is so cool that we definitly need to come up with some cool abilities to match its look. anyone have any ideas?

What if it leveled the terrrain it moved through? In enemy territory only. Like moves into a forest, it removes the forest. Moves into a hill, removes the hill. Removes mountains as well. (yes, can move into them). Of course can pillage and gets XP from pillaging. Perhaps 2 of them are allowed?

What if it leveled the terrrain it moved through? In enemy territory only. Like moves into a forest, it removes the forest. Moves into a hill, removes the hill. Removes mountains as well. (yes, can move into them). Of course can pillage and gets XP from pillaging. Perhaps 2 of them are allowed?

Wowsers! Like an Industrial Sized road grader. That would be cool as hell and seriously make you want to stop one from coming into your lands!

Cool, sounds like terrain destruction is it. If the War Machine moves into an enemy tile it will automatically destroy all improvements, routes, jungles, forests and new forests in that tile. The War Machine will get xp for destroying cottages, hamlets, villages and towns.

So it will go from Town to nada in one swipe?

I don't think this thing should get a movement promotion option either.

So it will go from Town to nada in one swipe?

Yes.

I don't think this thing should get a movement promotion option either.

I might double its movement penalty, so it can get mobility upgrades but they will only be half as effective for it. Does that sound fair?

I might double its movement penalty, so it can get mobility upgrades but they will only be half as effective for it. Does that sound fair?

Yeah, that would work.

Better make sure if it attacks a city and kills the last defender that it doesn't autoraze when entering that tile!

Yeah, that would work.

Better make sure if it attacks a city and kills the last defender that it doesn't autoraze when entering that tile!

Maybe not always Autoraze, but reduce population by 3 or 4? :)

Maybe not always Autoraze, but reduce population by 3 or 4? :)

:evil: and :cool:

Very nice idea.

I thought a bit about a possible change to the Pacify spell for Corlindale, and was inspired a little by the "Forgetfulness" spell from Heroes of Might & Magic III. Perhaps it could be a spell somewhat akin to "Rust", giving a 50% decrease in strength, but only apply when the unit attacked. This would illustrate the pacifistic feelings the spell would cause in at least part of the soldiers. This would obviously prevent the abuse of the spell we discussed earlier. I don't know how the "pacified" condition should be recovered from, perhaps the "returning to barracks" cure could still apply, this time symbolizing military conditioning and renewal of discipline.

Dammit, I want my own Hero! Someone who attracts Wood Nymphs, plays with Satyrs, and generally loafs off all day!

I thought a bit about a possible change to the Pacify spell for Corlindale, and was inspired a little by the "Forgetfulness" spell from Heroes of Might & Magic III. Perhaps it could be a spell somewhat akin to "Rust", giving a 50% decrease in strength, but only apply when the unit attacked. This would illustrate the pacifistic feelings the spell would cause in at least part of the soldiers. This would obviously prevent the abuse of the spell we discussed earlier. I don't know how the "pacified" condition should be recovered from, perhaps the "returning to barracks" cure could still apply, this time symbolizing military conditioning and renewal of discipline.

Corlindale will already be able to charm opponents, making them unable to attack. Why would he use a spell that decreased their attack power when they attacked instead?

Along the same lines, should the spell that makes a unit unable to attack and has a 10% chance of wearing off every turn be called "Charm Person", "Pacify" or is another name better?

Dammit, I want my own Hero! Someone who attracts Wood Nymphs, plays with Satyrs, and generally loafs off all day!

:D He sits in the cities and everytime you try to make him do something he says "One minute, just let me reply to this thread first" and never ends up leaving the city.

if you would like to name a hero I have no problem with that, but "Woodelf" isn't a very good name for a hero. We could do "<whatever> the Wood Elf" as the name of the 2nd fellowship hero if you would like.

ps what in the world is your avatar a picture of?

Why would he use a spell that decreased their attack power when they attacked instead?

I suppose the only reason would be that Charm will eventually break, and it's hard to foresee when that will happen. But you're probably right.

Charm Person should stay Charm Person. It's an old D&D classic, and most people will be able to easily identify it through that name.

I still want a unique spell called Pacify, though. I just need to come up with the right effect.

I suppose the only reason would be that Charm will eventually break, and it's hard to foresee when that will happen. But you're probably right.

Charm Person should stay Charm Person. It's an old D&D classic, and most people will be able to easily identify it through that name.

I still want a unique spell called Pacify, though. I just need to come up with the right effect.

Im with you. There isnt much maneuvering room between charm person and the negative buff spells we already have. Ill noodle on it too and see if I can think of anything.

Summon Hero?

I was thinking of making the rank 3 metamagic summon produce a permanent hero. The first civ that summons him gets him and after that point the spell is useless. What do you guys think?

That one should be a very special Hero me thinks...
I'd throw the following things in: The Guys Abilities Depend on the Abilities of the Caster. I think with the SDK we can change them Dynamically. So eg. the Caster Has Earth 2 => Hero has Strenght 8 Caster Earth 3 => Hero Strenght 12 and so on. By this means the human Player wont beeline for that Hero too much. We just have to save the changes somewhere...

And I'd like him to look quite magical :)

:D He sits in the cities and everytime you try to make him do something he says "One minute, just let me reply to this thread first" and never ends up leaving the city.

if you would like to name a hero I have no problem with that, but "Woodelf" isn't a very good name for a hero. We could do "<whatever> the Wood Elf" as the name of the 2nd fellowship hero if you would like.

ps what in the world is your avatar a picture of?

:lol: I can see him very good at persuading others. If someone can come up with a good woodelf name I'd be thrilled. I was always Yvain in other games so that would work.

My avatar is the Pied Piper of Hamelin. Or something close to that.

If someone can come up with a good woodelf name I'd be thrilled.

My wood elf ranger in Morrowind was named Aldorien Leranthirr. Don't know if it's good, though. It's really just my generic name for elven druid and ranger characters when I play RPGs.

My wood elf ranger in Morrowind was named Aldorien Leranthirr. Don't know if it's good, though. It's really just my generic name for elven druid and ranger characters when I play RPGs.

Either the first or the last name would work with "the Woodelf". Thanks.

Cool, sounds like terrain destruction is it. If the War Machine moves into an enemy tile it will automatically destroy all improvements, routes, jungles, forests and new forests in that tile. The War Machine will get xp for destroying cottages, hamlets, villages and towns.

I think that they should also level hills. Nothing can stand in their way.

That one should be a very special Hero me thinks...
I'd throw the following things in: The Guys Abilities Depend on the Abilities of the Caster. I think with the SDK we can change them Dynamically. So eg. the Caster Has Earth 2 => Hero has Strenght 8 Caster Earth 3 => Hero Strenght 12 and so on. By this means the human Player wont beeline for that Hero too much. We just have to save the changes somewhere...

And I'd like him to look quite magical :)

I think it would be more balanced if it got once strength for each spell it could cast--12 spells = 12 strength. The summoned hero would get some cool abilities. What if it were a demon for an evil civ and an angel for a good civ. A neutral civ gets a big monkey.

Demon-Higher strength (1.5 points of strength per spell, rounded down), demonic spells. When next to enemy cities can eat its population and summon a lesser demon. Can create entrances to hell. Deals collateral damage.

Angel-All terrain (including water). Some spells. Marksman. Kinda like a holy assasin. High bonus against demons. Starts with command. Gives the city it is in a sheild from all armegeddon spells. High movement and blitz.

Monkey-Not sure. maybe can become a "copy" of any other living hero?

My above chosen Example was not very good i believe..
I thought not only about raw Strength but giving other Abilities to:
Examples:
Caster has Nature Sphere: Hero gains Defense bonus in wood,
Caster has Air Sphere -> Hero gains retreat possibility points,
caster has water Sphere at level 2 -> hero can enter coast tiles,
Caster has Force Spher-> Hero gains collateral Damage
Caster has Body Sphere -> hero gains Additional first strikes
... to be continued

And maybe 5 Raw strength +1 per two spell Sphere promotions of the caster?

I think that they should also level hills. Nothing can stand in their way.

Wouldn't that be a bit over the top? A hill most likely has rocky foundations, the machine would have to be insanely heavy/powerful to actually level a hill, and the process would most likely produce massive earthquakes in all surrounding tiles as well. Of course realism might not be highest priority in a fantasy mod, but to me it would seem a bit odd to have the machine levelling a hill covering many square miles. .

For me it brought out the question, where does the hill go? At which point I considered pushing the hill to the next tile, which although interesting, makes the war machine seem like someone has snuck a bulldozer into FfH. And I didnt want anyone to confuse our awesome death machine with a medieval tonka truck.

For me it brought out the question, where does the hill go?

My idea was that it simply gets pushed into the ground. Just kidding.

I don't like the leveling of hills either. It is a killing machine not a Bulldozer
(and im not sure of the ability to raze forest or dschunglel - maybe add the ability to activly pillage forest to the machine? Maybe as a kind of spell? - this might be usefull for other anti elves units, too)

But for Loki i could genereate an alternative War Machine with a big bucket that always appears when (strcomp(GETPLAYER(humanplayer()).getName(),"Loki")==0) ?

Should Bambur get penalties for traveling in hills? I find it odd that he is.

I think we should include that movement bounus into the dwarfen promotion. It would look less messy, too.

Yeah, good point.

I will see about putting some base abilities on the elf and dwarf promotions.

To make Loki more usefull you could give him the Spies ability to peek into other Players cities.

To make Loki more usefull you could give him the Spies ability to peek into other Players cities.

I just think that he should be able to learn new spells. That way he remains somewhat useful even later in the game.

I'm working on other lizardmen today and do you think the Clan of Embers or the barbarians should have a lizardman hero ?

I'm working on other lizardmen today and do you think the Clan of Embers or the barbarians should have a lizardman hero ?

Nah, Rantine is the Clan hero and he's an orc. The barbarians got enough with Orthus and the dragon (lucky buggers, people are going to want to start playing as the barbarians soon).

I think a hero for Illiians should be Jotun, Or a Frost Giant. A simply reskin of a Warrior. He should be able to freeze people in their steps and have a lot of strength but low movement. Maybe he could make tiles into tundra or something.

I think a hero for Illiians should be Jotun, Or a Frost Giant. A simply reskin of a Warrior. He should be able to freeze people in their steps and have a lot of strength but low movement. Maybe he could make tiles into tundra or something.

I think that the Illians get Auric in his quest to restore Mulcarn...

Did we ever decide on the resurrection of Heroes that we talked about earlier? I thought we had some decent ideas about how expensive it should be.

I only ask since Bambur died in my last game. :cry:

Did we ever decide on the resurrection of Heroes that we talked about earlier? I thought we had some decent ideas about how expensive it should be.

I only ask since Bambur died in my last game. :cry:

I tihnk we were going for some life2 wonder that ressurects the next hero you have that dies. I'll check it into the wonder list.

Bless you my son. ;)

Im with you. There isnt much maneuvering room between charm person and the negative buff spells we already have. Ill noodle on it too and see if I can think of anything.
charm person should be called appathy, there should be a spell called stoopify where the unit can't move and runs away from combat. Pacifism should cause stupification and appathy. Charm person should alow temporary control over the unit.

Nah, Rantine is the Clan hero and he's an orc. The barbarians got enough with Orthus and the dragon (lucky buggers, people are going to want to start playing as the barbarians soon).

I'm in love with the Orc leader Jonus. Could he be put in as a buildable Hero for the Clan?

I want to pillage and raze using his Doll-head mace.

I'm in love with the Orc leader Jonus. Could he be put in as a buildable Hero for the Clan?

I want to pillage and raze using his Doll-head mace.

I doubt it, although not opposed to a little personal wetwork Jonus is to smart to be out on the front lines. Besides we wouldn't be able to get a decent sound effect of the girl screaming unless someone went over and tape recorded Woodelf.

:) *hides*

I doubt it, although not opposed to a little personal wetwork Jonus is to smart to be out on the front lines. Besides we wouldn't be able to get a decent sound effect of the girl screaming unless someone went over and tape recorded Woodelf.

:) *hides*

What a way to start your morning...abuse! :p

I love the Hero concept as you have it. They really make the game more fun.

Have you considered adding a "Counter" Hero? Someone who spontaneously appears if you conquer say half the world's Civs or dominate 30-40% of all tiles? It would be in the strongest enemy Civ...

I'm a regular lurker and avid player of FfH2 and prior FfH. I made one post back in FfH forum that Kael agreed on and i felt special. I absolutely love the mod. FfH was great, but FfH2 is shaping up more like FfH squared.

If the offer is still open i would love a chance to have a character immortalized in FfH2. Here is a someone from my RPG that might fit...

Rook is a warlock from my current GURPS dark fantasy game. He is wary and shrewd and deals amongst the poor, crooked, and forgotten. He moves between cities selling minor spells, secrets, and when desperate taking mercenary work. He has been tapped by the crown’s agents on occasion to do jobs as he is deniable and expendable.
Rook makes use of spirit-focused necromantic magic but refers to himself as a spiritualist as it sounds more innocent than necromancer. For a few coins he will summon up the shade of an old friend, curse a rival, or ferret out a secret. He prefers to be well informed and seeks information both to sell and to use as leverage in his deals. To assist in this Rook has a well kept secret of his own, the bound ghost of a young girl named Medaas. She is skittish, and her childlike comprehension make her sometimes unreliable, but she is invaluable nonetheless.
Rook was born in cruel hard lands on the fringes of a growing empire (Illians, Calabim, or Balseraphs would fit best I think). At a young age it was discovered he was mageborn and he was taken away to the Citadel of Screams where he received training as an adept. Never a particularly gifted student, his cunning kept him alive and progressing while many of his more talented peers were destroyed. On his first ranging his band was ambushed and Rook embraced the opportunity to escape. Since that day he has fled his birth nation and wandered far. His business often makes him enemies and so keeps him on the move.
Rook is a scrawny one-eyed human with the obvious taint of goblin blood. His business requires that he advertise his presence while at the same time remain in shadow. He is not a major power but finds it convenient for others to overestimate his power and underestimate his worth. The horrors of his youth and his nights at the Citadel have soured him to true evil but also desensitized him to more mundane wickedness. Although he would scoff if labeled ‘good’ he finds himself drawn to oppose cruelty. He has seen what life is like under an evil empire and doesn’t wish that nightmare to spread. However, he is primarily self serving and holds no love for dogmatic righteousness either.

Note: Rook did not kill the girl Medaas. He found her already a ghost haunting an orphanage. She hated that others always ran from her. By the time Rook discovered her, some sixty years after her death, she had forgotten her name and living history. She had taken to luring children to their deaths in an effort to find a playmate. She could not understand where these children went when their bodies broke and why she could not follow. As he wasn’t able to free her spirit, Rook enslaved her instead. He named her Medaas, meaning ‘my eyes’ in his native tongue. Over the years ghost and warlock have become friends, and Medaas is the only being Rook fully trusts.

Disclaimer: I know this is pretty dark stuff. I promise i am not a pedophile or anything. This character started as a PC and i only had enough points in magic to enslave a very weak ghost so i got the idea of making the ghost a child so it wouldn't cost as much to point out (GURPS system). The GM liked the story and approved it. Currently Rook serves as a minor NPC in the game i am running with different players. The group has grown fond of him but have no idea about Medaas.

FfH2 notes:
Rook could be a hero adept/mage with the spy ability (i know someone just suggested giving that to Loki). He should probably start with Sorcery but not Summoning. Spirit 1 would fit very nicely but not the other Spirit levels. Of course he should start with Death I and maybe Entropy I.
I think he would best fit the Grigori, but Kuriotates, Hippus, or Lanun would work. He would be drawn to the Sidar to capture their secrets but his death magic wouldn't please them.

If you made it all the way through this long post tell me what you think...

- feydras

I love the Hero concept as you have it. They really make the game more fun.

Have you considered adding a "Counter" Hero? Someone who spontaneously appears if you conquer say half the world's Civs or dominate 30-40% of all tiles? It would be in the strongest enemy Civ...

Yeah, that was the origional plan for adventurers, that they would be rubber band units that spawned in weak civs to help against the powerful.

@feydras
I like this story very much. perhaps we could include him in a quest.

Just thinking about Rook -
Maybe the girl thing is overkill as Jonas already has a little girl head mace. We could substitute in a handful of minor spirits say he captured from an insane asylum. I could come up with a story. This would keep the spying potential and still mesh with the flavor of Rook.

Thanks for the comment Loki, anyone else have any thought about if he seems workable as a hero or not.

- feydras

Any thoughts about changing the prereqs for Gilden Silverick? Right now he needs an archery range, but Elves don't need to build an archery range right away since they get Elven Archers with the Leaves. Maybe a Fellowship Temple would be better used to attract him?

Any thoughts about changing the prereqs for Gilden Silverick? Right now he needs an archery range, but Elves don't need to build an archery range right away since they get Elven Archers with the Leaves. Maybe a Fellowship Temple would be better used to attract him?

Im not sure why he has a building prereq, none of the other heroes do. Im just going to remove it entriely.

Im not sure why he has a building prereq, none of the other heroes do. Im just going to remove it entriely.

Even better. I didn't recall any others having prereqs either.

the grigori adventurers seem a bit over powered
i managed to hook up copper just in time to make the much needed upgrade into an axe man before the nearby orthus arrived(at the city with the copper), then he captured that city... but i put my axeman outside waiting for him to attack, lo and behold he was defeated

a foolish elf civ declared war after orthus took the city on me and moved their commando/cmb 5 warrior near my capitol but then i smashed him with my new axeman, who then went on to pound every single elf city in turn (razed most) with archer and elf busting promos.
then i busted the other nearby civ(forget which) down to one city who was foolishly guarding most of his cities with scouts????, but the point is that i did this all with just my early hero axeman -he was still overpowered in the late age as an immortal but the great number of units overall toned it down slightly

i think maybe grigori heros should get the "heroic" promotion instead of the "hero" promotion(less xp per turn, therefore less promotions)
i could have easily taken the battle off continent early on just by upgrading the other hero i had sitting around for awhile

the grigori adventurers seem a bit over powered
i managed to hook up copper just in time to make the much needed upgrade into an axe man before the nearby orthus arrived(at the city with the copper), then he captured that city... but i put my axeman outside waiting for him to attack, lo and behold he was defeated

a foolish elf civ declared war after orthus took the city on me and moved their commando/cmb 5 warrior near my capitol but then i smashed him with my new axeman, who then went on to pound every single elf city in turn (razed most) with archer and elf busting promos.
then i busted the other nearby civ(forget which) down to one city who was foolishly guarding most of his cities with scouts????, but the point is that i did this all with just my early hero axeman -he was still overpowered in the late age as an immortal but the great number of units overall toned it down slightly

i think maybe grigori heros should get the "heroic" promotion instead of the "hero" promotion(less xp per turn, therefore less promotions)
i could have easily taken the battle off continent early on just by upgrading the other hero i had sitting around for awhile

Thats interesting to hear, most of the feedback has been that the grigori are underpowered. What difficulty were you playing on?

i was playing on noble
-quote "the most balanced level of play"
my axeman had very high odds busting everything on the continent with mobil I combt V anti archer anti elf basic promos
it didn't hurt that the other civ on the continent was defending some of his cities with scouts either

the ai(on noble) just can't compete with the early grigori hero rush(except maybe with "standard" archers)
if i hadn't kept my hero back to protect the best cities once or twice i would have had the whole continent before getting macemen or if i'd given him a city buster promotion instead of combat V
i still could have been crushed by orthus without extremely lucky timing though

I've done pretty much the same thing with non-hero units who got lucky enough to kill orthus then upgrade to axemen or hunters. When you have Orthus Axe, shock, and someone to cover your back, it's easy to take several cities and level up almost faster than heros.
I'm not saying this tactic is overpowered, neccessarily, because its hardly reliable to have orthus attack you early, and survive to carry on his trade.

I've done pretty much the same thing with non-hero units who got lucky enough to kill orthus then upgrade to axemen or hunters. When you have Orthus Axe, shock, and someone to cover your back, it's easy to take several cities and level up almost faster than heros.
I'm not saying this tactic is overpowered, neccessarily, because its hardly reliable to have orthus attack you early, and survive to carry on his trade.

This happened to me in my current game with a warrior who beat a weakened Orthus. He is currently a level 16 swordsmen with two hundred and fifty something XP and i'm only about halfway through the tech tree! Way more than Gilder whom i just got. I am still losing by quite a bit believe it or not, but my uberswordsmen has been supporting my economy by pillaging with impunity. I'm specifically not taking my enemy's (Infernal) cities so he will build more improvements and units to fight. In essence i am farming my enemy to create my own hero. I don't think this is unbalanced, just a different approach.
Other relevant info: huge map, raging barbs, 15 civs, epic speed. Prince level.
Oh, and after he got tough i never fight with odds less than 99% as i am terrified of losing him. This 'strategy' is pretty cheesy i know. I expect it will be much less effective once the AI is beefed up to not use scouts as its primary defensive unit early game.

- feydras

I just think that he should be able to learn new spells. That way he remains somewhat useful even later in the game.


In Norrøn Mythology, Loke wasn`t just a trickster. He was also a shape-shifter, and he spawned some very powerful children. Among his children were Fenris (Fenrir the giant wolf ), Midgardsormen also called Jörmungandr, the sea serpent, and Hel, the queen of the kingdom of death. (He also spawned some more, in a shape-shifting form as a mare he even became the mother :crazyeye: of odins horse, but the three above are the most powerful)

To make Loke more useful later in the game, could it be possible to make him spawn some of his children as additonal heroes/UU`s or have some shape-shifting abilities that could make him useful in combat as well?

Info about Fenris: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenrir

Midgardsormen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rmungandr

and Hel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hel_%28being%29

Loke is also supposed to join the battle of Ragnarok leading a huge army of undeads from Hel against Æsene (the Æsir), so it might be an idea to make him develope into some sort of powerful necromancer?
(background story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki )

Just a couple of ideas. Hopefully some might be interesting.

BTW, I love the MOD, great work.

computer lag, double post....

In Norrøn Mythology, Loke wasn`t just a trickster. He was also a shape-shifter, and he spawned some very powerful children. Among his children were Fenris (Fenrir the giant wolf ), Midgardsormen also called Jörmungandr, the sea serpent, and Hel, the queen of the kingdom of death. (He also spawned some more, in a shape-shifting form as a mare he even became the mother :crazyeye: of odins horse, but the three above are the most powerful)

To make Loke more useful later in the game, could it be possible to make him spawn some of his children as additonal heroes/UU`s or have some shape-shifting abilities that could make him useful in combat as well?

Info about Fenris: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenrir

Midgardsormen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rmungandr

and Hel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hel_%28being%29

Loke is also supposed to join the battle of Ragnarok leading a huge army of undeads from Hel against Æsene (the Æsir), so it might be an idea to make him develope into some sort of powerful necromancer?
(background story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki )

Just a couple of ideas. Hopefully some might be interesting.

BTW, I love the MOD, great work.

Sadly Loki isn't named after the norse god but our own crazed designer. As such he should probably have the ability to create entire civs and new units but that might be a bit unbalancing. As for his ability to sire giant wolves, you'd have to ask him yourself about that.

Yah it would be nice to have a Loki god in their somewhere. I was just thinking, it might make more sense to have the balseraph hero be a Don Quixote (totally insane of course, with a bonus on windmills).

Instead, loki could be part of a late game questinvolving ragnarok and a giant war between the alignments. After he gets free from his prison (in hell perhaps) he leads the army demons and giants and monsters against the gods.

I have a little suggestion about Typhoid Mary... I think she is a little underpowerd when you get her... alchemy is still a rather late game tech and she still doesnt have a hero promotion... so if you are not planning on giving her that then here is a suggestion:
+give her 1 additional movement point, she does strickes me as an agile hero (since this is a minor change its not very important whether you decide to implement it or not).
+if possible give her the following promotion: Plauge Eater - +60% strengh against plauged or desiesed units (makes sense since her strengh lies in plauging units first).
+the last change is probobly the most interesting one... i was thinking of giving her plauge bearer ability a compleat makeover. It would work like this: when Typhoid Mary attacks the first time she would give all enemy units the "desised" promotion which would drain 15% of its hp and units in the same tile (not stackable of course) and will wear off in 3 turns, the second time she attacks the units whit the "desised" promotion have it replaced whit "plauged" which drains 30% of their health, this promotion will not go away untill it is cured. And finnaly a third attack will cause the "plauged" promotion to be replaced whit "tainted" prom, that drains a total of 45% of the units hp per turn and can only be cure in the city in wich the Aqua Suceluss was built (might be a bit much, since if i imagine myself ever leting it get that far i would most likely just delete the unit myself, less maintenece that way =) ). could be fun if you decide to implement this, would also allow her to be on equal footing whit Halfmorn who currently overshadows her whit his Lycantropy ability and the fact that you can get him far sooner then Mary.

I know these bonuses might sound a bit much but in the current state of the game her whole concept is overshadowed by Halfmorn, absolete by the archmages meteor storm (it is a LOT more useful agains SoD's then Mary), and nearly useless in an actual war since when you want to capture a city you will not want to wait 5-7 turns for the plauge to weaken the defenders of the city even whit the posible advantage of losing less units to make it worth while you will need to attack whit Mary first and since she will likely to attack into a fortified longbow by this point of the game there is a high chance of her getting killed, of course you could use catapults first but that would just lead to the following scenario: catapults bombard a city to make way for Mary to attack, Mary attacks to weaken the defenders, attackers wait 5-7 turn for the enemy to get weakened enough by the plauge and then attack... Now the problem whit all this is that a war normaly needs to be fast, the longer a war lasts the more taxing it becomes for the attacker, making the whole concept of the plauge less usefull. The only time when this can be actualy very effective is when you manage to plauge an attacking
enemy stack, by the time they reach your city they would have already taken a huge load of damage from the plauge unless thay had a healer in that stack.

Again just my 2 sents on the matter.

I have a little suggestion about Typhoid Mary... I think she is a little underpowerd when you get her... alchemy is still a rather late game tech and she still doesnt have a hero promotion... so if you are not planning on giving her that then here is a suggestion:
+give her 1 additional movement point, she does strickes me as an agile hero (since this is a minor change its not very important whether you decide to implement it or not).
+if possible give her the following promotion: Plauge Eater - +60% strengh against plauged or desiesed units (makes sense since her strengh lies in plauging units first).
+the last change is probobly the most interesting one... i was thinking of giving her plauge bearer ability a compleat makeover. It would work like this: when Typhoid Mary attacks the first time she would give all enemy units the "desised" promotion which would drain 15% of its hp and units in the same tile (not stackable of course) and will wear off in 3 turns, the second time she attacks the units whit the "desised" promotion have it replaced whit "plauged" which drains 30% of their health, this promotion will not go away untill it is cured. And finnaly a third attack will cause the "plauged" promotion to be replaced whit "tainted" prom, that drains a total of 45% of the units hp per turn and can only be cure in the city in wich the Aqua Suceluss was built (might be a bit much, since if i imagine myself ever leting it get that far i would most likely just delete the unit myself, less maintenece that way =) ). could be fun if you decide to implement this, would also allow her to be on equal footing whit Halfmorn who currently overshadows her whit his Lycantropy ability and the fact that you can get him far sooner then Mary.

I know these bonuses might sound a bit much but in the current state of the game her whole concept is overshadowed by Halfmorn, absolete by the archmages meteor storm (it is a LOT more useful agains SoD's the Mary), and nearly useless in an actual war since when you want to capture a city you will not want to wait 5-7 turns for the plauge to weaken the defenders of the city even whit the posible advantage of losing less units to make it worth while you will need to attack whit Mary first and since she will likely to attack into a fortified longbow by this point of the game there is a high chance of her getting killed, of course you could use catapults first but that would just lead to the following scenario: catapults bombard a city to make way for Mary to attack, Mary attacks to weaken the defenders, attackers wait 5-7 turn for the enemy to get weakened enough by the plauge and then attack... Now the problem whit all this is that a war normaly needs to be fast, the longer a war lasts the more taxing it becomes for the attacker, making the whole concept of the plauge less usefull. The only time when this can be actualy very effective is when you manage to plauge an attacking
enemy stack, by the time they reach your city they would have already taken a huge load of damage from the plauge unless thay had a healer in that stack.

Again just my 2 sents on the matter.

I think your right and love the idea of giving her a bonus against plagued units. Chalids working on a better way to build anti-promotions (bonus's against units with certain promotions). Maybe once that it is we will use it to give Mary this boost.

I have a hero for you guys. A surprise if you will, and my role-players will be angry I'm giving it to you instead of them.....too bad. When, if you are going to have one, will be the contest you hinted at for designing a hero....I don't have to wait but it is juicey and liberating and if you don't like it I will sacrifice my second settler for my next 100 games...That is how confident i am....squeak

Heya,

I had an idea for the Ljosalfar civ.
How about, because they are primarily elves, but are also at-one-with-nature, they get a treant hero, who can only be gained the same way as normal treants (ie randomly summoned from ancient forests) except there is a 10% chance that he will pop up instead of a normal treant after the hidden paths tech is discovered.

He could have the ability to increase the growth rate of forests (ie change a new forest to a Forest to an ancient forest; and even increse the chance on new forests randomly appearing around him), cast bloom, entangle and summon vines. however, the catch is, that he cannot travel outside of forests or the owners cities.
I think these advantages and disadvantages would make him perfect for defence, and also encorage the elves to plant LOTS of forests so he can move around, however he will be totally innafective against taking enemy citys because he cannot enter them.

So summed up:
Unit type:
~Treant/Dryad type unit
Abilities:
~increse forest growth rate
~New promotion: Woodland Guardian
+100% defence in all forests (new, normal and ancient)
Cannot exit forest (or the owner civs city) squares
Spells:
~bloom (Perhaps make bloom be castable on ajacent squares as well...)
~entangle
~summon vines
~(Maybe summon Treant, but that may over power him...)
disadvantages:
~cannot exit forest or owners city squares.
~(probably another disadvantage, to ballance but cant think of any)

Im not too sure how practical that would be with python and that, but thats my idea that i think would be a nice addition to the elves (hint hint ;) )

Another disadvantage for your treant could be Fire vulnerability.

- feydras

How about Evil Termite People causing civil war in Ancient Forests .........What would Treants think of that..........never mind the Exterminators would just arrive in early history........News Now when Trees have Had enough campfire at eleven.......Ug no I'm sorry I didn't mean it we are going to burn pinecones........honest....

......Just joking.......I couldn't resist today ......But seriosly suspicion of anyone carring an AXE is normal for Treants. "Hey you, what exactly are you planning to do with that........Oh, really!@'

Loki: I really like your thoughts on involving Loke in some quest in the late-game parts. (Maybe when one civ builds a wonder like "Ragnarok unleashed" or something like that).

Regarding Typhoid Mary, I agree that she isn`t nearly as useful as Baron Halfmorn. But how about allowing her to "summon" plagued black rats. These might be used to infect other civs soldiers, but also spread to enemy cities, decreasing their crop yield/income/culture and having drastic effects on the health of any plagued city.

Lorgen: Love the rats idea for Mary. Maybe like strength 2, stealth promotions, some % transmission rate for disease. Can have up to 3 at a time.

Red Dragon, really needs some help. Through promotions, or spawned hatchlings, or whatever...she's too easy to take down. Could be as simple as giving city defense promotion to start, and a couple of flavor units to cover her back when the hp get low.

Proposal: The four horsemen. A late game Orthus, concept. They would spawn based on the armageddon counter.

The white horse and bow: The conqueror, a new civ emerges mid to late game with one city, and powerful troops. Maybe near weakest civ in the game, so they have room to conquer, and starts to replace weaker civ w/ stronger.

The red horse and sword: The warlord, travels the land gathering troops from player lands, and declares war on someone. An ai crusade that you must oppose or donate troops too. This mechanic is already in, but could use some polish. More interactive, and less random.

The black horse and scales - The tax collector. Wanders through the civilizations taxing as he goes, perhaps if you can't pay he takes? Should be unkillable, and undodgeable as far as paying up, or else.

The pale horse and death - Death incarnate. Could be a reaper type unit. Spreads disease, and is immortal. Has a small chance to outright kill opposing units a small % of the time. Shouldn't attack cities, maybe degenerates terrain as he goes, but should wander the lands, not just single a player out.

Lorgen: Love the rats idea for Mary. Maybe like strength 2, stealth promotions, some % transmission rate for disease. Can have up to 3 at a time.

Red Dragon, really needs some help. Through promotions, or spawned hatchlings, or whatever...she's too easy to take down. Could be as simple as giving city defense promotion to start, and a couple of flavor units to cover her back when the hp get low.

Proposal: The four horsemen. A late game Orthus, concept. They would spawn based on the armageddon counter.

The white horse and bow: The conqueror, a new civ emerges mid to late game with one city, and powerful troops. Maybe near weakest civ in the game, so they have room to conquer, and starts to replace weaker civ w/ stronger.

The red horse and sword: The warlord, travels the land gathering troops from player lands, and declares war on someone. An ai crusade that you must oppose or donate troops too. This mechanic is already in, but could use some polish. More interactive, and less random.

The black horse and scales - The tax collector. Wanders through the civilizations taxing as he goes, perhaps if you can't pay he takes? Should be unkillable, and undodgeable as far as paying up, or else.

The pale horse and death - Death incarnate. Could be a reaper type unit. Spreads disease, and is immortal. Has a small chance to outright kill opposing units a small % of the time. Shouldn't attack cities, maybe degenerates terrain as he goes, but should wander the lands, not just single a player out.

I boosted the Acherons strength from 14 to 18. We will see how it goes next time.

I like Lorgen's idea for the rats too, I'll add it to the wish list.

The horsemen idea is interesting, functionally we hope to have the increased armageddon include these sorts of effects though we haven't started detailed design on Fire yet so the specifics arent done.

Heya,

I had an idea for the Ljosalfar civ.
How about, because they are primarily elves, but are also at-one-with-nature, they get a treant hero, who can only be gained the same way as normal treants (ie randomly summoned from ancient forests) except there is a 10% chance that he will pop up instead of a normal treant after the hidden paths tech is discovered.

A possible problem with that is that it forces you to play the Fellowship if you want the hero. Of course, with the Ljosalfar the Fellowship is a natural choice in any case, but still. I think it might work better as a general Fellowship hero.

It's quite a cool idea, though. :)

Hero: Whisper of Malumit:Master Longbowman
Strength 13
Move 3

Promotions Has all the Ablities of the Shadow and the Ranger....Plus Blitz
Robin in the Hood Inspired.......Can get city deffese bonus in Forested areas......still needs more substance.....but I am trying to earn.......forgiveness

Avatar Hero: Whisper of Malumit:The Unicorn King
Strength15
Movement3 or more
Automatic Promotions All Dimension spells, Some of the Spirit and immune to undead and banisment also slay undead and demon

Hew hates evil civs and needs a promotion that will allow him to free slaves and if his contolling civ refuses to help a civilization that asks for help to get rid of slavery he leaves and becomes an AI contolled unit or something.....should be partial to Leaves and Order.....if unicorns are ever created he should be able to summon a herd. This is not a happy unicorn but an angry purge the evil kind.........promotions that should apply that I haven't mentioned should happen as usual..........

To make him you should most definitely have Ancient Forests and Nature Mana Spoirit Mana and Dimensional Mana..............Armagedon Unit maybe..he should be able to teleport after either first defense,Attack,a

You are not to long on these forums so maybe Kael has mercy with you and will not eat you alive:
No Unicorns

You are not to long on these forums so maybe Kael has mercy with you and will not eat you alive:

Sorry Kael..........I had no idea.........that rules out vulgar unicorns too then...........and you are right I am not long here......and I only joined because of your mod...........but if you must eat me alive........."the will of the master is my command and where shall I stretch my neck!"

Bad Holy Berserker on you face and give me a million.............no mercy you should know better.......the mirror just doesn't quite get it and I don't have it in me to be a flaggilator......whips are meant for cattle or at least two.....I changed theat post so you won't have to see it again....I shall start the settler sacrifices immediately! ........ theat post=the/that post to be eaten or get you eaten.

@ Kael: wotcha think of my treant hero idea from before?

@Xuenay: that was kind of the idea, i think it would be cool if there were civ specific heros that are also religeon specific, maybe it would be better to make it so that only nuturals with the fellowship can hav him? i dont see him thinking the crusading 'good' guys are fighting for what he believes, and i definately dont see him with the 'evil' civs. however the fact that the Ljosalfar are fighting to save their existence and their homes (namely the forests) this guy is logical.

Bad Holy Berserker on you face and give me a million.............no mercy you should know better.......the mirror just doesn't quite get it and I don't have it in me to be a flaggilator......whips are meant for cattle or at least two.....I changed theat post so you won't have to see it again....I shall start the settler sacrifices immediately! ........ theat post=the/that post to be eaten or get you eaten.

You are either brilliant or insane. I havent figured out which yet.

@ Kael: wotcha think of my treant hero idea from before?

@Xuenay: that was kind of the idea, i think it would be cool if there were civ specific heros that are also religeon specific, maybe it would be better to make it so that only nuturals with the fellowship can hav him? i dont see him thinking the crusading 'good' guys are fighting for what he believes, and i definately dont see him with the 'evil' civs. however the fact that the Ljosalfar are fighting to save their existence and their homes (namely the forests) this guy is logical.

I really love the idea of a hero that is gained without building. I don't know if a treant is right, but I don't know. It may make more sense than an elf now that we have the elves in as a civ (keeps Kithra from going out to kill his own people).

Im going to check it in to the ideas under consideration.

Cool, im glad you think it could work :)

you could have similar heroes for other religeons, ie some zombie lordthat pops up from swamps/marshes for the Ashen veil, or some king of Dwarf Griffon rider lordy guy that pops up from mountains, or a leviathan (egyptian Sea beast) kind of hero that spawns from ocean squares for OO, or a partly crazy, but very righteous peasant who is acltually some long lost king for the Bannor of something who is relates to their angel (forget the name) who spawns from a farm! (ok, not sure about that last one but hey...)

Although, i think that if every religeon got a random hero, it would go against your philosophy that there should be minimal patterns in FfH, and therefore i just wasted 3 minutes of my life;) oh well...

You are either brilliant or insane. I havent figured out which yet.
When it comes to fine lines and large gray areas I often find the only difference is in application and desire. To hone this more precisely the answer is usually found within the application and desire of the suject/object and the observer.....rheatoricly. Some brilliant people or their ideas are insane given the subject/object matter. Some insane people or their ideas are brilliant given the subject/object matter. This is only one example of the fine line and large gray area theat post.

Lao Tzu "That man that walks around laughing and talking to himself, tending to his own business and that everyone claims as an idiot is the luckiest man in the world." Lao Tzu's friends"That is whom Lao Tzu was before the people realized he was wise."

Cool, im glad you think it could work :)

you could have similar heroes for other religeons, ie some zombie lordthat pops up from swamps/marshes for the Ashen veil, or some king of Dwarf Griffon rider lordy guy that pops up from mountains, or a leviathan (egyptian Sea beast) kind of hero that spawns from ocean squares for OO, or a partly crazy, but very righteous peasant who is acltually some long lost king for the Bannor of something who is relates to their angel (forget the name) who spawns from a farm! (ok, not sure about that last one but hey...)

Although, i think that if every religeon got a random hero, it would go against your philosophy that there should be minimal patterns in FfH, and therefore i just wasted 3 minutes of my life;) oh well...

You understand me to well. But we have always toyed with the idea of having a resource that could only be gained if enough slaves/units are sacrificed. I don't see why we couldn't have an overlord or veil hero that can only be enlisted when you make enough sacrifices.

I think a Sea Serpent like monster (but would also be able to enter land squares) would be really cool

I think a Sea Serpent like monster (but would also be able to enter land squares) would be really cool

I have also thought a bit about this. Normally I don`t find the more advanced seafaring-techs too attractive to research. And why do I need +1 movement rate for naval units? War is commenced on land, and you only need ships to protect your ocean-recources.

So a barb sea-serpent that gurds a huge treasure, like the dragon, would be quite cool. It may also move and destroy fishing boats/ships, making naval exploration a lot more challenging...

The killer of the serpent might get a WW in his capitol (head of the sea-serpent?) granting perhaps a culture-bonus in every city, and a relation-bonus towards every other civ. Or a poison-promotion to all units built by the civ.

And inspired by Loke (I still don`t know about his ability to sire great wolwes, by the way;) ), Loke`s child Midgardsormen might be the model. Midgardsormen: Midgard=Middle-earth(Yes, Tolkien stole most of his ideas from Norse mythology) Orm(en) = (the) worm/snake/serpent

"Thor's fishing trip:

Another encounter came when Thor went fishing with the giant Hymir. The two did not get along, and when Hymir refused to provide Thor with bait, Thor struck the head off Hymir's largest ox to use as bait. They rowed to a point where Hymir often sat and caught flat fish, and he drew up two whales. Thor demanded to go farther, and so they did. Hymir told Thor that the part they were at was unsafe, because of the Serpent, but Thor ignored him, and to Hymir's horror they rowed out further.

Thor then prepared a strong line and a large hook, and Midgardsormen(Jörmungandr) bit. Thor pulled the serpent up; the two faced off, Midgardsormen(Jörmungandr )dribbling poison and blood. Hymir went pale with fear, and as Thor grabbed his hammer to kill the serpent, the giant cut the line, leaving the serpent to sink beneath the waves.

This encounter seems to have been the most popular motif in Norse pagan art. Four picture stones can be definitely linked with the myth.

Thor's foot goes through the boat as he struggles to pull up Jörmungandr in the Altuna picture stone.

The final battle

Their last meeting will come at Ragnarök, when Jörmungandr will drag himself from the Ocean and poison the skies. Thor will kill Jörmungandr and then walk nine steps before falling dead from the serpent's poison."

Kael wants a Sea Serpent model for the barbarians from me for a long time... i just had other things to do first... and still have... but sometimes in the near future...

Kael wants a Sea Serpent model for the barbarians from me for a long time... i just had other things to do first... and still have... but sometimes in the near future...

great news... Really looking forward to it. :)

I really love the idea of a hero that is gained without building. I don't know if a treant is right, but I don't know. It may make more sense than an elf now that we have the elves in as a civ (keeps Kithra from going out to kill his own people).

Im going to check it in to the ideas under consideration.

I suggest looking and an Epic Campaign book from a different game, you know the one.......Elder Treant with a little more for a unique unit and hell Elder Treants would be a great upgrade say 200 to 5ooyears after treants start appearing. The Unique unit would Be the Paragon of its species the reference is my best suggestion....say The GrandFather of Leaves...Maybe a 1000 years after the treants and up to 500 after the Elder Treants .........I like to idea too! Oh gods, the forest is coming after us....whoops you!

I love the work you guys are doing on the Hero units. You're putting a lot of thought into them & making them very cool.

I was fiddling around with the game in worldbuilder to see what each of the current Hero units does/is like/etc. and I noticed that not all the units listed in the first post on this thread are in (like the Lanun, Hippus & Clan Heroes). Is that becuase some aren't done yet?

And even some that are in the game have no Civopedia entries at all, not even blank ones (like the dragons, for example). Is that because you're still changing them?

I love the work you guys are doing on the Hero units. You're putting a lot of thought into them & making them very cool.

I was fiddling around with the game in worldbuilder to see what each of the current Hero units does/is like/etc. and I noticed that not all the units listed in the first post on this thread are in (like the Lanun, Hippus & Clan Heroes). Is that becuase some aren't done yet?

And even some that are in the game have no Civopedia entries at all, not even blank ones (like the dragons, for example). Is that because you're still changing them?

Yes to both questions. I just made Barnaxus yesterday, Magnadine will probably be coming soon.

Kael,

Even if i have no answer about who is Govannan, i give my idea about him.

Govannan:

Mvt: 1
Strength: 5

Channeling I, II, III
Enchantment I
Divine
Sorcery
Light
Spellstaff
Magic Immune
Hero

I think that you would think it's too much for a single man but OMI Govannan is a powerful mage (Divine, Sorcery, Spellstaff ), nearly immune too spells (Magic immune ) but poor in hand to hand fight (Light). I also give him Enchantment I because he is Amurite.

That's my idea....
What do you think about this Govannan ?

The Frog.

Kael,

I forgot this:

Requires : Fanaticism
Unit Category : Arcane
Cost : 300 shields.

The Frog

Kael,

Even if i have no answer about who is Govannan, i give my idea about him.

Govannan:

Mvt: 1
Strength: 5

Channeling I, II, III
Enchantment I
Divine
Sorcery
Light
Spellstaff
Magic Immune
Hero

I think that you would think it's too much for a single man but OMI Govannan is a powerful mage (Divine, Sorcery, Spellstaff ), nearly immune too spells (Magic immune ) but poor in hand to hand fight (Light). I also give him Enchantment I because he is Amurite.

That's my idea....
What do you think about this Govannan ?

The Frog.

Its a stacking of abilities, I need something unique for him. An ability that gives him some flavor. Like Corlindales ability to sacrifice himself to end all wars.

And don't worry abotu not knowing anything about him, I dont know anything about him either, he was created for the mod.

I have an idea for a hero with a unique ability. Doesn't have a name yet so lets call him Visero. He can permanently summon the "Eyes of Visero," inviseble units that can scout enemy territory or hang around important sights in the empire. They can also be consumed toteleport Visero to thier location. He could have mind and dimensional magic. more on this later.

Perhaps Govannans ability could have something to do with mana nodes? At first I considered letting him create new nodes, taking 20 turns or so to do it. But I figured that would mean the player would just use him like a worker, which would be sort of boring. Sacrifice him to cause new mana nodes to pop up all over your empire?
Or perhaps allow him to do some metamagic? Not in the sense of the metamagic sphere of spells, but in the sense of casting the conventional spells in different ways. For example merging the effect of two spells, which could for instance be used to create a Meteor Shower with meteors casting a debuff on their target in addition to damage.
Or channel his spells through other units, which could be anywhere on the map(or just within a certain radius from Govannan, if it is too unbalanced), but they would die afterwards from the powerful energies surging through them. So he could channel a Meteor Shower through a galleon in the waters outside the enemy capitol, or through a lone warrior facing many barbarians in an outlying city. Maybe other mage units have a good chance to survive the channeling.

Another option would be to think up some unique and powerful spells for him. Would be cool with a unique tier 4 spell for each sphere, but that would probably be way too much work for a single unit:)

Kael,

Right and understood. I don't understand before your answer what really mean the word and sense of Flavor. Now, it's all right.

I give you some ideas. I don't know if it's technically possible to do.

My ideas:

1) Because Amurites Mages power is linked with the number of mana nodes they control ( Caves of Ancestors) , we can imagine that Govannan is also linked. His strength could grow by one for each node under control. So, if players want a strong Govannan, they have to be aggressive.

2) As Corlindale, Govannan could sacrifice himself to destroy mana nodes of civ(s) he is at war with. The destruction would be total: mana node disapear permanently from titles.

My english is not good enough to give names to this flavors. So, if you like them, you will have an other task....finding names to this flavor. Sorry.;)

The Frog.

I'm not much a fan of self destructing heroes, um.
but the power in relation to mana nodes idea I like very much.

and regardless, spell caster heroes are the easiest to differentiate from one another :) just give them a unique spell

Perhaps, in addition to being a powerful mage, Govannon could be a teacher of the arcane arts. By this I mean that he could teach the spells he knows to other arcane units. Possibly he could also teach spells (at least first level ones) to non-arcane units, but I'm not sure if this will be too unbalanced.

Perhaps, in addition to being a powerful mage, Govannon could be a teacher of the arcane arts. By this I mean that he could teach the spells he knows to other arcane units. Possibly he could also teach spells (at least first level ones) to non-arcane units, but I'm not sure if this will be too unbalanced.

This is a very good idea and works especially well for the amurites since they are all spellcasters.

I really like Psychorg's idea to teach rank1 spells to other units. If I was going to do it I think I would give him the ability to teach others to cast Haste.

Hians idea to destroy opponents mana nodes could be cool too, really devastating if it is used against you.

I could also see allowing him to consume mana nodes (his own or enemies) for xp and a power increase.

Either way I think Govannon will probably be a late game hero because we will want him to have access to rank 3 spells.

i like Govannon very much! all the ideas presented a great, i especially like the teaching of spells to other units.

How about: He can teach spells of spheres where he has consumed a node...

How about: He can teach spells of spheres where he has consumed a node...

There are so many rank 1 spells that arent useful for an entire army to have. Scorch, spring, charm person (which would just be frustrating), courage, enchant blade, etc etc.

Dance of Blades, Escape, Haste and Raise Skeleton are really the only good ones to have available to everyone. Maybe have him be able to teach any of these if he has the spells?

I really like Psychorg's idea to teach rank1 spells to other units. If I was going to do it I think I would give him the ability to teach others to cast Haste.

Hians idea to destroy opponents mana nodes could be cool too, really devastating if it is used against you.

I could also see allowing him to consume mana nodes (his own or enemies) for xp and a power increase.

Either way I think Govannon will probably be a late game hero because we will want him to have access to rank 3 spells.


Kael,

OMI, he must have access to rank 3 spells. He's a powerful mage from a magic linked civ.

I also like Psychorg's idea to teach rank 1 spell. Those one must be "battle" spells such as Haste (as you say).

Even if it seems very powerful, i really think that destroying opponents mana nodes by the sacrifice of Govannan is a good idea. It is a one-shoot flavor but that can really change the future of your gameplay. It must be used with caution.

When you say that he could also consume mana nodes for xp and power, do you think this consumption permanently or not ? My idea is that this consumption could be :
1) permanently (node destructed permanently), with strong xp/power bonuses.
2) not permanently (so you have to rebuild your node), with low xp/power bonuses.
In both situations, i would prefer a consumption of mana nodes under control, not ennemies one.

To finish, what do you mean by late Hero ? Which tech ? (fanaticism ?)

The Frog.

Even if it seems very powerful, i really think that destroying opponents mana nodes by the sacrifice of Govannan is a good idea. It is a one-shoot flavor but that can really change the future of your gameplay. It must be used with caution.

That would be a nice ability. Especially once the monsters in fire start spawning out of mana nodes. Could this ability also destroy ancient temples?

When you say that he could also consume mana nodes for xp and power, do you think this consumption permanently or not ? My idea is that this consumption could be :
1) permanently (node destructed permanently), with strong xp/power bonuses.
2) not permanently (so you have to rebuild your node), with low xp/power bonuses.
In both situations, i would prefer a consumption of mana nodes under control, not ennemies one.
I think it would be permanent consumption of mana nodes, and could be either yours or an enemies. Presumably only yours if no enemy ones are available. And you wouldn't be allowed to consume a rival's one while you had open borders.

To finish, what do you mean by late Hero ? Which tech ? (fanaticism ?)

The Frog.
I was think one of the very late game techs, perhaps the archmage tech or almost the archmage tech?

Also, I think that he should be able to teach his hordes level 2 spells as well. Bow before the power of my amurite spellcasting hordes!

That would be a nice ability. Especially once the monsters in fire start spawning out of mana nodes. Could this ability also destroy ancient temples?


I think it would be permanent consumption of mana nodes, and could be either yours or an enemies. Presumably only yours if no enemy ones are available. And you wouldn't be allowed to consume a rival's one while you had open borders.


I was think one of the very late game techs, perhaps the archmage tech or almost the archmage tech?

Also, I think that he should be able to teach his hordes level 2 spells as well. Bow before the power of my amurite spellcasting hordes!

Loki1232,

About the Ancient Temples, i don't think so. Amurite is not a Religions Civ (Right Kael ?). So, why Ancient Temples should be under the rules of this flavor? It would be a nice idea for Bannor for exemple, they seem to be more religious.

I would prefer permanent consumption of owned mana nodes (for xp/power increase) because:
1) PERMANENTLY: you would use this flavor with caution. You increase your power/xp at a high cost, each mana nodes destructed means less power for your Cave of Ancestors and less access too a large choice of spells spheres.
2) OWNED: Your main flavor (sacrifice Govannon) destroy ennemies mana nodes. It's enough for your opponents to loose all mana nodes once and for all.

If the Team choose to create Govannon with all the powers described above, it would be a strong Hero. OMI, his creation could be later than others Heroes but not too late if you don't want him to be useless.

To finish, i don't think that teaching rank 2 spells is a good idea. This kind of spells are truly Mage/wizard powers, not combatant one.

Loki, it's the name of a Scandinavian God? Right ?

The Frog.

Loki is the name of a Norse god, yes.

Okay you've convinced me about Govannon.
*Calls Kael*

I think we are best to link him at Arcane Lore, thats 1 before the Archmage granting tech. That way the Amurites get an archmage a little earlier than everyone else.

Anyone want to skin Govannon using either the mage or wizard model?

Destroying mana nodes is a really, really strong ability, though... the last time I got to play, it was on a Large map with a whole four mana nodes. If you destroy just two of them, that's half the mana resources in the whole world... (excluding wonders)

Destroying mana nodes is a really, really strong ability, though... the last time I got to play, it was on a Large map with a whole four mana nodes. If you destroy just two of them, that's half the mana resources in the whole world... (excluding wonders)

Xuenay,

You are right. But remember :
1) that your hero dies....
2) Only mana nodes of civs you are at war with are destroyed.
3) As you says, those of the Wonders and Palaces are still functioning.

The Frog.

I think we are best to link him at Arcane Lore, thats 1 before the Archmage granting tech. That way the Amurites get an archmage a little earlier than everyone else.

Anyone want to skin Govannon using either the mage or wizard model?

Kael,

Yeap. Arcane Lore is a good choice.

Again my poor english. Sorry.:blush: What do you mean by "skinning" ?
It's the sense of Drawing ?

The Frog.

Kael,

Yeap. Arcane Lore is a good choice.

Again my poor english. Sorry.:blush: What do you mean by "skinning" ?
It's the sense of Drawing ?

The Frog.

Yeah paint the model to make the unit look good.

Yeah paint the model to make the unit look good.

Kael,

Understood. Thx.

I would be pleased to help you but i don't know how to do, neither if i have the right program to do it. My lack of knowledge in programing, skinning,...is absolutly AWESOME. It's a pity, i have time to "waste" for such a great project as FfH2. I will not work until the 1st of september......

The Frog.

Have we figured out rantine's mechanic yet?

How about a mechanic to create an army of barbarians.

Have we figured out rantine's mechanic yet?

How about a mechanic to create an army of barbarians.

That could be cool, would it sacrifice him? If not how often could he use it?

Kael,

Is there a thread somewhere else which explain how skinning, what is necessary to skin ?

About the leader of Ember (don't remember his name..:blush: ) why don't you use the same system as the Great Military Leader ?
It could be improved and made awesome for a single shoot use (and the death of XXX) or lessened for multiple use.

Do you find somebody for Govannon skinning ?

The Frog.

Kael,

Is there a thread somewhere else which explain how skinning, what is necessary to skin ?

About the leader of Ember (don't remember his name..:blush: ) why don't you use the same system as the Great Military Leader ?
It could be improved and made awesome for a single shoot use (and the death of XXX) or lessened for multiple use.

Do you find somebody for Govannon skinning ?

The Frog.

This thread does an okay job of describing it: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=137265. You won't need to unpack art resource because they are already unpacked for FfH. So if you wanted to make a new skin for Govannon you could get the mage skain in /Fall from Heaven 2 012/assets/art/units/mage/christian_missionary.dds file.

This thread does an okay job of describing it: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=137265. You won't need to unpack art resource because they are already unpacked for FfH. So if you wanted to make a new skin for Govannon you could get the mage skain in /Fall from Heaven 2 012/assets/art/units/mage/christian_missionary.dds file.

Kael,

Thx a lot.:goodjob:

I will look for that this night, after sending my nephew and niece at bed.;)

The Frog.

That could be cool, would it sacrifice him? If not how often could he use it?

I think whenever he pillaged a cottage or captured a city. They he can "recruit" a couple of barbarians that spawn around him.

I think whenever he pillaged a cottage or captured a city. They he can "recruit" a couple of barbarians that spawn around him.

Yeah, I could probably work up a modified recruit ability for him that recruited barbarian units instead of normal ones (and of course didnt kill him).

This thread does an okay job of describing it: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=137265. You won't need to unpack art resource because they are already unpacked for FfH. So if you wanted to make a new skin for Govannon you could get the mage skain in /Fall from Heaven 2 012/assets/art/units/mage/christian_missionary.dds file.

Kael,

After reading the thread, i'm ready to begin to try to do something. I've got all necessary...
Meanwhile, are you sure of : /christian_missionary.dds ?

I don't understand what i'm looking.

The Frog.

Since I've only been playing Hippus lately, I was wondering what Magnadine would be like? early/mid/late game, strength~, movement~, unique ability (or non-unique, like air magic), etc.

Kael,

After reading the thread, i'm ready to begin to try to do something. I've got all necessary...
Meanwhile, are you sure of : /christian_missionary.dds ?

I don't understand what i'm looking.

The Frog.

There are several files.
christian Missionary.dds is his clothes an his head
Other files are for his shoulder pads and for his cape.

Simply try what happens if you paint it.
You can use the Nif Viewer to check your results.

Since I've only been playing Hippus lately, I was wondering what Magnadine would be like? early/mid/late game, strength~, movement~, unique ability (or non-unique, like air magic), etc.

I dont know yet. Hes a mounted mercenary lord. High movement, probably mid to late game, high str. His special ability will probably be something similiar to recruitment. I was postpining making him until the mercenary mod comes in, at which point I was going to have him able to steal other civs mercenary units.

I dont know yet. Hes a mounted mercenary lord. High movement, probably mid to late game, high str. His special ability will probably be something similiar to recruitment. I was postpining making him until the mercenary mod comes in, at which point I was going to have him able to steal other civs mercenary units.
I thought the mercenary mod was already out. They use it in the Realism mod.

I thought the mercenary mod was already out. They use it in the Realism mod.

Its been out for a while, we had it in FfH2 but it failed testing because of some multiplayer and AI issues. TheLopez has been awesome and is working on an even better version that I am excited to try out.

I've been thinking about heroes for a while. I've been reading how players typically use them and noticed how I've used them myself.

Namely, how players are much more reluctant to send their heroes into combat than typical units. How combat-oriented heroes often have less use in combat than spell-caster heroes, just because they are thrown in only when the odds are overwhelmingly in their favor.

This is wrong. By the very nature of its scarcity, heroes end up being unheroic. One has to wonder how they got to be heroes in the first place when they fight less than their fellow soldiers.

By giving a unit the status of "hero", a player will naturally start becoming a bit attached to it. This happens all the time in RPGs so it's not surprising it happens here. So it also makes me frustrated when the hero does get killed even with overwhelming odds. Not fun at all.

On the other hand, the danger of the hero being killed does add a tactical consideration. Protecting your hero should be important, and killing enemy heroes should be major victories.

This is the heart of the problem. The goal here is to make heroes important and non-expendable, yet also encourage them to play a heroic role in campaigns, instead of standing back and let the pawns do all the work.

So how do other strategy games that integrate heroes do this? They do so in a couple ways. One way is to make the hero more of a general/spellcaster that is only killed when the army is killed, ala Heroes of Might and Magic. Lots of games have the concept of hitpoints plus tactical retreats, allowing players to recall heroes when they are losing in the middle of a battle. Some games allow resurrection of heroes at varying costs. RTS games give units 100% chances of winning over weaker units (for example, pit a hero against a lowly foot soldier and the hero will always win).

I'm not sure how this can be done in Civ4. Chance needs to play far less of a role for heroes. In particular, simulating tactical retreats in battles would be ideal. Concerning resurrection, I'm not in favor of that since that diminishes the importance of killing enemy heroes.

I dont know yet. Hes a mounted mercenary lord. High movement, probably mid to late game, high str. His special ability will probably be something similiar to recruitment. I was postpining making him until the mercenary mod comes in, at which point I was going to have him able to steal other civs mercenary units.
How about:
10~12 Strength, 4~5 Movement, starts with Air III and Summoning (or Divine if you feel like creating a few new spells, like change wind current for +1 movement for all units in tile and +15% offense), can summon a recruiter with Dimensional I after pillaging hamlet-town/razing a city...

I know it's kind of absurd, a mercenary with magic, but I really felt like the Air side of Hippus wasn't shown enough. Even with the Hippus summoner, he only has 1 Air spell and no connection to the mounted mercenaries.

Edit: Just wanted to add that instead of Dimensional I you could use Rebase from vanilla.

Kael, Chalid,

I have tried a part of the night to do something about skinning Govannon. It's ugly.:cry: He looks like a drunken down and out tramp who had vomit on his clothes.:sad: I'm light years away from beeing just a poor "skinner".:(
Even if i would try again, you should ask somebody else. The result would be better and Govannon would be ready for a next release more quickly.
Sorry.

About the Hippus Hero, why don't you give him the "Command" Promo ?

The Frog.

I've been thinking about heroes for a while. I've been reading how players typically use them and noticed how I've used them myself.

Namely, how players are much more reluctant to send their heroes into combat than typical units. How combat-oriented heroes often have less use in combat than spell-caster heroes, just because they are thrown in only when the odds are overwhelmingly in their favor.

This is wrong. By the very nature of its scarcity, heroes end up being unheroic. One has to wonder how they got to be heroes in the first place when they fight less than their fellow soldiers.

By giving a unit the status of "hero", a player will naturally start becoming a bit attached to it. This happens all the time in RPGs so it's not surprising it happens here. So it also makes me frustrated when the hero does get killed even with overwhelming odds. Not fun at all.

On the other hand, the danger of the hero being killed does add a tactical consideration. Protecting your hero should be important, and killing enemy heroes should be major victories.

This is the heart of the problem. The goal here is to make heroes important and non-expendable, yet also encourage them to play a heroic role in campaigns, instead of standing back and let the pawns do all the work.

So how do other strategy games that integrate heroes do this? They do so in a couple ways. One way is to make the hero more of a general/spellcaster that is only killed when the army is killed, ala Heroes of Might and Magic. Lots of games have the concept of hitpoints plus tactical retreats, allowing players to recall heroes when they are losing in the middle of a battle. Some games allow resurrection of heroes at varying costs. RTS games give units 100% chances of winning over weaker units (for example, pit a hero against a lowly foot soldier and the hero will always win).

I'm not sure how this can be done in Civ4. Chance needs to play far less of a role for heroes. In particular, simulating tactical retreats in battles would be ideal. Concerning resurrection, I'm not in favor of that since that diminishes the importance of killing enemy heroes.

I cant speak for the others but the fact that I dont risk my heroes in battles they are liekly to lose doesnt make their action unheroic. They turnt he tides of wars, Saverous alone saved my empire from collapse in my last game. But he did it without ever fighting a battle he had less than a 95% to win (except for one 60/40 fight against Rosier that he won!).

But its not about the risk in the battle you choose to join. Its about the risk in exposing the hero. Do you move them forward to kill that archer, know that it will be deep in enemy lines and the ai could gang up on it afterwards.

How about:
10~12 Strength, 4~5 Movement, starts with Air III and Summoning (or Divine if you feel like creating a few new spells, like change wind current for +1 movement for all units in tile and +15% offense), can summon a recruiter with Dimensional I after pillaging hamlet-town/razing a city...

I know it's kind of absurd, a mercenary with magic, but I really felt like the Air side of Hippus wasn't shown enough. Even with the Hippus summoner, he only has 1 Air spell and no connection to the mounted mercenaries.

Edit: Just wanted to add that instead of Dimensional I you could use Rebase from vanilla.

I had another idea for Magnadine. Magnadine could become a melee unit in a range of 1 tile away from an enemy city. This could be a problem for coding, but atleast he would be able to defend himself after attacking (unlike all the other raiders)... He could only have the magic attacks as a melee unit, this would make him much more powerful while raiding, which would make sense, as he's a mercenary.

Mounted Magnadine: 3 Strength (yes, that low), 5~6 movement, starts with Hero and Inspire Followers (allows recruiting, I guess).
Inspire Followers could make mounted units (according to era) appear out of the blue. As they appeared they would begin following Magnadine around. These units wouldn't belong to any civilization and would play after Hippus' turn, after winning a battle they could convert to Hippus or something.

Magnadine: 13 Strength, 1 movement, Starts with Hero, Summoning/Divine (see above) and Wind III (or whatever).

I cant speak for the others but the fact that I dont risk my heroes in battles they are liekly to lose doesnt make their action unheroic. They turnt he tides of wars, Saverous alone saved my empire from collapse in my last game. But he did it without ever fighting a battle he had less than a 95% to win (except for one 60/40 fight against Rosier that he won!).

But its not about the risk in the battle you choose to join. Its about the risk in exposing the hero. Do you move them forward to kill that archer, know that it will be deep in enemy lines and the ai could gang up on it afterwards.

There are actually two problems here, both caused by the unexpendable nature of heroes. First, heroes aren't used that much. I'll expand on this more later. The second is that it's extremely frustrating when you lose your hero to a battle that's overwhelmingly in your favor. It's frustrating whenever this happens, but moreso for units you cannot rebuild.

There should be a way to make sure your hero doesn't die in a battle that has very good odds. Where defeat does not necessarily mean your hero is killed. Ever heard the saying "losing makes you stronger"? That can never happen for heroes right now. The whole concept of tactical retreat within battles doesn't exist.

Personally, I kinda want all units to have a good chance at withdrawing, but I recognize that Civ4 is an empire building game first, and a tactical turn-based wargame second. Prolonged fights between units may detract from the rest of the game, and the massive number of units already simulate withdrawing (killing a unit can be seen as just destroying part of an army, leaving the rest to withdraw the next turn). However, heroes are an exception here. They can't be replaced. They should be important enough to warrant the additional attention and complexity. In fact, RPG elements would be nice for heroes.

As for the first point - that heroes don't fight as much as others - I still think this doesn't feel right. Perhaps they can change the tide of war, but so can any other powerful unit. There should be something distinguishing a hero from simply being a powerful unit. Heroes just don't feel heroic to me. Sometimes I get more attached to a unit that somehow constantly defies odds and wins over and over again - something I would never risk sending the actual "hero" to do. Maybe that is the missing element. Heroes shouldn't become heroes until they prove themselves to be heroes.

Alright, I'll lay out out my suggestions. Not fully thought out, but good enough for now.

1) Some units should morph into heroes once they reach a certain level. For example, let's say an elven archer reaches level 4. Then it becomes Gilden Silveric. Once that happens no other archer can become Gilden Silveric (for obvious reasons) even if the hero dies.

2) It should still be possible to directly train heroes under certain conditions. Heroes like Typhoid Mary, which aren't based off any unit, can always be trained. Heroes like Gilden Silveric can only be trained after a certain amount of archers are produced (or some other constraint, maybe tech?). This ensures that aggressive civs don't have too large an advantage over passive civs, since both types will still have ready access to heroes.

3) It should be possible to upgrade heroes. Going on with the Gilden Silveric example, once you have access to elven longbowmen, you can upgrade Gilden Silveric to a longbowman. This is the RPG-equivalent of changing equipment.

4) When attacking or defending against a stack of units without an "anti-hero unit", the hero should have a 100% chance of withdrawal. "Anti-hero" could be some sort of promotion granted to most heroes and assassins and their ilk. Each level in the anti-hero promotion in the enemy stack would reduce the withdrawal chance by 20%. Or if that's too complicated, just let the anti-hero promotion reduce withdrawal by 50% regardless of level or the number of anti-hero units in the stack. Note: I have no clue if this can be done in Civ4.

5) When you have an anti-hero unit attack a stack of units that also has an anti-hero unit, your anti-hero unit will attack the strongest non-hero anti-hero unit, instead of the strongest unit in the stack. If the only anti-hero unit in the stack is a hero itself, then your anti-hero will attack that hero. So the order of preference goes: non-hero anti-hero unit > anti-hero hero > any other unit. This sounds complex, but it does add an additional layer of tactics. Anti-hero units serve both as hero killers and defenders this way. Note: Again, no clue if this is possible in Civ4.

6) After each battle a hero participates in in the same turn, the hero's chance of withdrawal is reduced. This ensures heroes can't simply survive repeated attacks in the same turn.

7) Heroes with flanking promotions would get > 100% chance of withdrawal so it would take more anti-hero units or more battles in the same turn to corner them.

8) An equipment system and random items spawning around the map would add an RPG feel. Basically something similar to Heroes of Might and Magic.

The goal of the above suggestions are to make heroes a more integral part of the game. They make the player more attached to them, make them a centerpiece in military campaigns, and something the player spends plenty of attention on. At the same time, I'm keeping in mind that the additional complexity needs to be worth the buck, so I wonder if there are simpler ways to acheive the same effect.

Great Ideas!

1. Your creation of hero ideas are quite good.
2. I think that the equipment system will stay out until shadow. (a later release)
3. Yes, basically any attacker/defender modification is possible with python, so the anti-hero stuff could work.

Hi,

I agree. Great ideas.

Creating a hero after one of your unit won enough battles, either defensive or offensive, is a good idea. I just think that level 4 is too low. Probably 6 or 7 would be better.

I also think that because Hero are unique unit they add to be protected against "common" units. On the other hand why not a anti-hero promo to hunt this guys ?

To finish, improving a Hero as explain with the elf one (don't remember his name) is a very good idea.

The Frog.

I always thought units should upgrade to heroes at a certain point, I just thought that they shouldn't become existing heroes. Level 4 is way too low, maybe more like 10~17 (by the hero and unit class, offensive units gain xp faster).

Nice to see people like the ideas :)

That level 4 thing is arbitrary. I chose it for the sake of example. In fact, the "hero level" can be one of the perks of a type of civilization. For example, it may be lvl 6 for aggressive civs and lvl 8 for others.

Also, with all these other bonuses for heroes, there should be no exp bonuses for heroes. Perhaps trained heroes would retain the 1 exp per turn bonus until it reaches the "hero level", at which point the bonus goes away, assuming trained heroes start at level 1.

On the note of upgrading hero's, Basium is pathetic. I went through the list of heroes in the Civilopedia, and he only can really theoretically beat Loki if he can pin him down or Corindale, assuming he doesn't get wasted by Corindales spells first. Not to mention plotwise he's supposed to be a fallen solar. At least give the guy immune disease and an upgrade so you cant screw his whole civ over with a marksman. And yes Corindale is useful offensively, the only difference between him an archmage is that he comes earlier has hero and is arcane, and has that peacemaker move. Sheesh, why the heck can a pacifist learn Meteor Shower, Tsunami or Defile.

On the note of upgrading hero's, Basium is pathetic. I went through the list of heroes in the Civilopedia, and he only can really theoretically beat Loki if he can pin him down or Corindale, assuming he doesn't get wasted by Corindales spells first. Not to mention plotwise he's supposed to be a fallen solar. At least give the guy immune disease and an upgrade so you cant screw his whole civ over with a marksman. And yes Corindale is useful offensively, the only difference between him an archmage is that he comes earlier has hero and is arcane, and has that peacemaker move. Sheesh, why the heck can a pacifist learn Meteor Shower, Tsunami or Defile.

Basium is buildable from the start, he has no required techs or resources. He may not be able to defeat Eurabatres in combat, but I would wager that having a iCombat 5 unit with the hero promotion at the start of the game is a bigger advantage than getting Eurabatres in the late game. He is certainly isn't pathetic, if anything he is overpowered.

As for Corlindale, he starts out with spells in the non-letal spheres, but if the player decides to turn him into a killing machine that is their option (the AI will generally upgrade him in the spheres he already has). We typically don't enforce roleplaying considerations.

Now if only loki could learn new spells....

...he would be overpowered.

xP

I think Loki is really usefull as he is. I cheated him for me in the last thirty games i played... ok i used him to verify if the thing i introduced worked but neverthelesss... quite usefull with his spiing abilities :D

More of my musings...

Just realized that a defending unit can't withdraw, so I need to think up something different for hero defense (if needed). While it could be possible to code in defensive withdrawals, I'd prefer to avoid that since it's a large change - need to figure out where unit withdraws to, how it effects gameplay, and whether offensive and defensive withdrawals should require different promotions.

There needs to be someway to ensure that a hero in the middle of a stack is "safe". Suppose we a hero in a stack, and an enemy attacks the stack, selecting the hero as the unit with the best odds against it. This gives the enemy a chance to kill the hero, even if the hero is supposedly well-defended. I'm not saying that the hero shouldn't have been selected - if the hero is the best unit, it should indeed be the one defending - but it should not be so easy to kill this way.

Maybe defensive withdrawals really are a good way to handle this situation. It could be implemented as following:
1) Suppose an enemy attacks a stack of units and selects a unit that can withdraw. The unit loses but wins the withdrawal role. It survives and doesn't move anywhere.
2) Suppose an enemy attacks a lone unit that can withdraw. The unit loses but wins the withdrawal role. It survives and retreats to the safest plot. After digging a bit into the SDK, I found CvPlayerAI::AI_getPlotDanger, which seems to be a good way to find this safest plot.

Should these rules apply to all non-hero units that have withdrawal bonuses as well? I'm inclined to say no, since it provides a huge advantage and could be unbalancing.

Last thought: the "anti-hero" promotion definitely needs a better name but I can't think of one. "Anti-hero hero" is a bit of a mouthful :) Can't think of anything that encompasses both assassins and heroes, so they may just need different promotions that share the same anti-hero effect. Also not sure if it makes sense for assassins and the like to defend heroes, but it does simplify things. The alternative would be having two separate promotions for hero defense and hero killing.

EDIT: Does Civ4 already have retreating/defensive withdrawals? If so, I haven't seen one in the longest while. I've been playing various TBS games lately and at least one of them has it...just not sure which one :p

More of my musings...

Just realized that a defending unit can't withdraw, so I need to think up something different for hero defense (if needed). While it could be possible to code in defensive withdrawals, I'd prefer to avoid that since it's a large change - need to figure out where unit withdraws to, how it effects gameplay, and whether offensive and defensive withdrawals should require different promotions.

Maybe somekind of pushback addition to the hero promotion (but only while in a city, outside it could be a withdrawl)...

There needs to be someway to ensure that a hero in the middle of a stack is "safe". Suppose we a hero in a stack, and an enemy attacks the stack, selecting the hero as the unit with the best odds against it. This gives the enemy a chance to kill the hero, even if the hero is supposedly well-defended. I'm not saying that the hero shouldn't have been selected - if the hero is the best unit, it should indeed be the one defending - but it should not be so easy to kill this way.

Maybe lowering the defense of the hero outside of the homeland, while inside the hero not only recovers the lost defense, but gains like 10%... I know this isn't the best solution, but if you have the hero in a stack it won't really matter, well, unless a stack is attacking your units (meaning a large stack).

Maybe defensive withdrawals really are a good way to handle this situation. It could be implemented as following:
1) Suppose an enemy attacks a stack of units and selects a unit that can withdraw. The unit loses but wins the withdrawal role. It survives and doesn't move anywhere.
2) Suppose an enemy attacks a lone unit that can withdraw. The unit loses but wins the withdrawal role. It survives and retreats to the safest plot. After digging a bit into the SDK, I found CvPlayerAI::AI_getPlotDanger, which seems to be a good way to find this safest plot.

Should these rules apply to all non-hero units that have withdrawal bonuses as well? I'm inclined to say no, since it provides a huge advantage and could be unbalancing.

I agree, but, not only would it too hard to find the safest plot, it would also not make sense. If someone attacked you and you decided to run away, you'd be running in the opposite direction.

Last thought: the "anti-hero" promotion definitely needs a better name but I can't think of one. "Anti-hero hero" is a bit of a mouthful :) Can't think of anything that encompasses both assassins and heroes, so they may just need different promotions that share the same anti-hero effect. Also not sure if it makes sense for assassins and the like to defend heroes, but it does simplify things. The alternative would be having two separate promotions for hero defense and hero killing.

How about "Bounty Hunter"? It makes sense. I mean who else specializes in killing specific people? Since there's an Assassin unit, Merceneries are going to be in the game sometime in the near (hopefully) future and Hitman just doesn't fit FfH, I ruled them out.

EDIT: Does Civ4 already have retreating/defensive withdrawals? If so, I haven't seen one in the longest while. I've been playing various TBS games lately and at least one of them has it...just not sure which one :p

Haven't seen it either.

Loki can retreat. ;)

But that's it.

@Maian:

We added a function that makes sure Heroes (and magic users as well) are selected later when defending. So when they defend it is because they have a considerably higher chanche of winning. Basically it works like:

Chance of the best normal 60% to win
Chance of the Hero 65%

-> The nromal unit defends

Chance of the best normal 50% to win
Chance of the Hero 80%

-> The Hero defends

At the moment its implemented on a very simple basic but we might further refine the system. (eg when a hero has only 20% and the next unit has 5% the hero defends at the moment. One would wish that in that cas the normal unit defends to save the hero one more turn).
(Oh and this should be true for non heroes with really big levels, too)

And Vanilla has no defensive withdrawals.

Maybe somekind of pushback addition to the hero promotion (but only while in a city, outside it could be a withdrawl)...

? Not sure what you mean by pushback.

I agree, but, not only would it too hard to find the safest plot, it would also not make sense. If someone attacked you and you decided to run away, you'd be running in the opposite direction.

What if the opposite side also has an enemy unit? Then should the retreating unit go right or left? In any case, this is already implemented in FfH for Loki in the FFHFindClearPlot function. It apparently scores the plots in the area around the retreating unit, depending on whether a plot is empty, has friendlies, or is a city, and adds a little random factor.


@Chalid:

Is the code for that in the SDK? I couldn't find it anywhere in the Python code.

Yes that code is deep buried in the C++ files/GameCoreDLL.dll.

BTW, when Loki is attacked, the attacking unit doesn't move into plot where Loki previously was. That doesn't make sense and appears to be a bug. From what I can tell, the code for moving Loki is in the cannotAttack function, but the cannotAttack function is apparently called at the start of combat, which is too late to get Loki out of there (if the function returns true, Loki doesn't get a chance to run away and gets clobbered).

Curiosity + free time got the better of me, so I tried to fix the Loki behavior.

edit: removed outdated code

This had already all been rewritten in 0.13. The changelog shows all changes that have already been made: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=171497

Well the changelog only said "Fixed an error if loki tried to run beside a city" which is unrelated to what I was trying to fix.

Wanted to say I am a big fan of the evolving heroes idea. I like the idea for player civs, but I love the idea for barbarians. It would be great to have a whole random bag of Barbarian heroes that could come to be. If a warrior reaches a certain level, BAM he becomes a character from Kael's world. Maybe the heroes could be recruited if paid enough, or a service was done? I'm sure you have some slush NPC's running around in your old spiral books. It would be really fun. Just at a basic level, even if attributes weren't all that different, to fight/interact with barbarian heroes.

Ex: That Mage rogue, that was suggested, w/the creepy child ghost following him around. Good dark flavor.

I'm not sure if something like this has been suggested before, but I got an idea for a powerful end-game hero, perhaps Armageddon-related. It would start out with pretty high experience when it was built, and gain double experience whenever it won a combat. But instead of constantly gaining experience like other heroes, it would automatically lose one point of XP every turn, being destroyed when it hit zero XP. That would force the builder of the hero to go out to war with it if they wanted to benefit, and lead to all sorts of interesting decisions... do I stop to heal for a couple of turns now to regain health and have a better chance of succeeding in the next attack, or do I press on with the attack to get the experience now since I don't know when the next chance to get XP would be? (You'd probably want to give this hero a relatively high withdrawal chance)

There'd be the AI problem again, but maybe it could just be given a hero AI with drastically reduced thresholds for needed attack success chance... or something. It'd be a heck of a fun unit for us humans. :)

I'm not sure if something like this has been suggested before, but I got an idea for a powerful end-game hero, perhaps Armageddon-related. It would start out with pretty high experience when it was built, and gain double experience whenever it won a combat. But instead of constantly gaining experience like other heroes, it would automatically lose one point of XP every turn, being destroyed when it hit zero XP. That would force the builder of the hero to go out to war with it if they wanted to benefit, and lead to all sorts of interesting decisions... do I stop to heal for a couple of turns now to regain health and have a better chance of succeeding in the next attack, or do I press on with the attack to get the experience now since I don't know when the next chance to get XP would be? (You'd probably want to give this hero a relatively high withdrawal chance)

There'd be the AI problem again, but maybe it could just be given a hero AI with drastically reduced thresholds for needed attack success chance... or something. It'd be a heck of a fun unit for us humans. :)

That is an interesting idea, similiar to the pit beast and hosts mechanic we have now that allows them to stick around as long as they win a combat every turn. I like your take on it too which is more forgiving. Alternativly a unit could gain some icombat/strength everytime it wins a combat and lose one each round that it doesn't and if its icombat hits 0 it dies.

The Deep Sleeper
Unit Type:Giant Octapus(World Unit)
Strength:34
Movement:4
Promotions:Amphibious,Blitz,Invisible In Water(until 1 square away), Mind Spells All,Hero Promotion
This Hero is 'The Ancient Octopus thought to be the Source of the Religion by rumor but in fact is simply the founders favorite pet.

Just thought I'd point out a little thing I noticed with Donal Lugh, the bannor hero. It's next to impossible for the AI as Veil to take a city he's in. he just keeps slaughtering summons to recharge that 2x power recruit thing and in a few turns you have an army big enough to slaughter any concieveable attack. He completely inverts the standard summoner strategies because most summons recharge that ability. You should probably not let it recharge on skellies and Drowned or 1-turn summons.

Just thought I'd point out a little thing I noticed with Donal Lugh, the bannor hero. It's next to impossible for the AI as Veil to take a city he's in. he just keeps slaughtering summons to recharge that 2x power recruit thing and in a few turns you have an army big enough to slaughter any concieveable attack. He completely inverts the standard summoner strategies because most summons recharge that ability. You should probably not let it recharge on skellies and Drowned or 1-turn summons.
Isn't everyone else comlaining that magic is overpowered?

I dont really have a problem with Donal's ability. The problem here is that the AI is throwing useless attackers against an opponent. In my experience the AI does a decent job at this (Talchas had some code in to keep summons from happening if there was no real point). But thats not to say it couldn't be better.

When are we going to see this 'Avatar units' catagory that keeps getting mentioned. Dragons and golems the size of a skyscraper should not be vulnerable to shock tactics. Personally, I think dragons should have their own type and Dragon Slaying should be +80, and available to any unit with combat 1 at level 6 or above, given that a unit can do it 3 times at most in the current setup.

When are we going to see this 'Avatar units' catagory that keeps getting mentioned. Dragons and golems the size of a skyscraper should not be vulnerable to shock tactics. Personally, I think dragons should have their own type and Dragon Slaying should be +80, and available to any unit with combat 1 at level 6 or above, given that a unit can do it 3 times at most in the current setup.

There are 3 avatars in the game right now. The Avatar of Wrath, Meshabber of Dis, and the Mithril Golem. There will probably be more added in "Fire".

There are no golems in 0.12 that are effected by shock (that I am aware of). The Dragons are as melee units and you are probably right that we probably need a "Monster" or "Beast" unitcombat to handle them and some other stuff like krakens.

As for Dragonslaying your right that it isn't incrediably useful overall but the +40% can be nice if you are linging up for an Acheron run. And I don't want to increase it more and make the dragons to easy to kill.

Untitled (Hippus Hero, Mounted/Melee): 3 Strength, 5 Movement while mounted (Cargo Space: 4 Corpses). As a melee unit, he has 10 Strength and 1 Movement (Cargo Space: 3 Corpses). Only turns into a melee unit while in a range of 3 tiles of an enemy city. After certain fights, with many casualties, you will be able to find a Corpse unit. The unit would have 0 movement and only have a few uses, it is invisible to most and instead of being captured it can only be "picked up" by certain units (this hero being one of them). Once picked up the hero will carry the corpses back to a city with a Mercenaries Guild (+1 gold, -1 happy). The Guild will give certain bonuses every corpse was given to them (depending on the unit's promotions — the promotions of the dead unit). The hero starts with: Hero, Commando, Blitz, March and Medic I.

ugh, not every one wants to deal with corpses, how about trophies from defeated foes?

ugh, not every one wants to deal with corpses, how about trophies from defeated foes?

You don't have to be the one that kills them... That's what I thought would make it better :P

i wouldn't mind it, but not everyone likes the ashen veil and OO religious type stuff...
what would be cool is some sort of hero/magic entity who learns the promotions(not the sphere or channeling promotions) of the foes he defeats
(early game hero so he can't be water walking over and winning vs queens of the line)
this one won't gain xp like normal heros

also, for the avatar that loses xp, he can get the anti hero promotion...
brings new meaning to it eh?;)

i wouldn't mind it, but not everyone likes the ashen veil and OO religious type stuff...
what would be cool is some sort of hero/magic entity who learns the promotions(not the sphere or channeling promotions) of the foes he defeats
(early game hero so he can't be water walking over and winning vs queens of the line)
this one won't gain xp like normal heros

also, for the avatar that loses xp, he can get the anti hero promotion...
brings new meaning to it eh?;)

I never said it was AV or OO... I could see anyone dealing with corpses for his own benefit... It could be the only way the unit gains xp or something...

i just mean the undead/demonic sorta theme...
namely that we should avoid the theme where it doesn't really need to be so we don't freak anyone out when they see corpses under their units
and what right minded hero would do that under the order/runes of kilmorph?

Remember... its Dark Fantasy.... even the goodies aren´t that good

i just mean the undead/demonic sorta theme...
namely that we should avoid the theme where it doesn't really need to be so we don't freak anyone out when they see corpses under their units
and what right minded hero would do that under the order/runes of kilmorph?

First off, all of these religious heroes are out there killing people anyways, why wouldn't they drag them back for a certain reward? And secondly, I don't see why people would freak out — if they don't want to see corpses, they shouldn't build the few units that can carry and see corpses.

well thats all well and good if that a restricted to evil religions/even civs maybe
but a "neutral" hippus hero?
i think trophies would be much more in line...
also, whats cooler, a dead body or a prized weapon?

well thats all well and good if that a restricted to evil religions/even civs maybe
but a "neutral" hippus hero?
i think trophies would be much more in line...
also, whats cooler, a dead body or a prized weapon?

He could get a prized weapon after a few dead bodies — in fact, he could use a dead body as his prized weapon, there's no reason not to have both :p...

But really, on topic here, I really think you misunderstood. The Hippus are mercenaries, correct? Maybe only certain corpses would be accepted by the Hippus, others could be burried for the citizen's peace of mind...

Dear eerr, you are forgeting (and didn´t read my post) what Kael said:

"Guys, remenber, its a Dark Fantasy mod, so expect a lot of blood, evil and destruction, even from the good guys."

Or something like that.

Dear eerr, you are forgeting (and didn´t read my post) what Kael said:

"Guys, remenber, its a Dark Fantasy mod, so expect a lot of blood, evil and destruction, even from the good guys."

Or something like that.

That doesn't mean that they should all be bloody, evil and destructive in the same way, though. (That'd just be boring.)

Of course ! Im just answering why a Order/Runes hero would pick up corpses from the ground =P

Don't good guys go to war and kill people anyway? I mean, they believe they are doing good by stopping what they believe to be evil.

Yes, but it's generally considered over the line to put limbs on your mantle.

Even if he only means to bury the corpse? (I did suggest this)

Even if he only means to bury the corpse? (I did suggest this)

Oh, actually I missed the last six posts that just popped up. Oh well, I stand by my joke. ;)

It is a good joke :)... As for the corpses, so that the guy who builds this hero first doesn't have to suffer, the AI would use the decompose spell after like 10~20 turns...

i think i made entirely too many people like corpses by arguing against them :eek:
I guess we'll have piles of bodies in .15 then

Way of track.... but....
...piles of bodies.....
..... I can just see it.....
... but imagine the defensive modifiers you would get from hiding amongst them.... or even better that they would attract "hordes" of wild animals....

Sorry if I missed it, but I want to know about the Lanun hero(es).
Is he an fully fleshed out unit just waiting on are, or are you looking for a "hook"? (pardon the pun, mateys!) Here's my thoughts.

Guybrush should be changed to Captain Guybrush the scallywag. Much more pirate-y.

[I'm assuming on rereading that Darkwind is a boat.]

I think it'd be cool if he could use units to power up ships. I thought of two ways to do this, just depending on the functionality/what you would need to add.

A) He begins with str 5ish, buildable with the optices probably, and starts with boarding party and "Pirate Recruiter," an ability like donal Lugh that recharges--in his case when ever he captures a ship. But Recruit Pirate works in any city with a harbor, and gives 3 units: A sloop (caravel with +1move & +1 cargo space), a pirate boarder (basically boarding party with lower strength, and perhaps engraged) and one random other unit such as: a pirate gunner (only if blasting powder is known) which can be sacrificed to give any ship in the same tile an "expert gunner" promotion for +15% str; a pirate alchemist (only if alchemy is known) can be sacrificed to give any ship in the same tile an "firepots" promotion for collateral damage; a pirate carpenter (only if construction is known) that can give a ship "march" promotion, maybe renamed; a pirate doctor (only if medicine is known) that can give a ship medic 1 promotion; A first mate (only if celerty is known) that can give a shoip blitz; and maybe others like a pirate ghost giving fear, or a pirate whaler giving capture animal (for the krakens). Other than the "join ship" ability on these guys, they would be like the pirate boarders without the boarding party promotion. (Maybe give the pirates a free combat 1 promo if the city recruit is used in has a tavern ;))

This method would be fun I think, and simulate a legendary pirate putting in at the first port after a rough battle to grab a crew from whatever is availible. Downside is that it would require a handful of seldom seen units and might so be a waste of resources.

or

B) Rather than the recruit ability, give him a "press gang" ability. This would be somewhat similar to create flesh golem. Use the ability in any coastal city, must select an owned ship and friendly non-animal unit. Creates a "fully crewed" version of that ship that has (most of) the promotions of the press-ganged land-lubber, but otherwise the same stats as the ship. The fully-crewed promotion would prevent the ability from being used twice on one boat. (The land unit would disappear)

Some promotions would not be able to be transfed: Anti-unit type (like shock)& terrain defense for obvious reasons. Mobility, because ships have navigation, and it wouldn't translate to water. Chaneling would not, but Sorcery/Summoning and magic sphere pormotins would, so if an adept was added to an arcane barge (which starts with channeling 2) it'd get additional spells, but a privateer would not. City raider or garrison would not, of course. Undead or demon could, meaning a ghost ship that could learn fear. :evil: Hero probably shouldn't, but if you dragged a hero onto a ship, his other promotions would make for a formidable vessel. Enchantments ok, maybe? Oh, and summoned would too, if you tried to 'cheat' and add a str 5 imp to a boat, it'd take the boat with it in a turn :lol:

This would be a fun ability without adding the pirate units, but it may be a pain to code? Dunno

Sorry if I missed it, but I want to know about the Lanun hero(es).
Is he an fully fleshed out unit just waiting on are, or are you looking for a "hook"? (pardon the pun, mateys!) Here's my thoughts.

Guybrush should be changed to Captain Guybrush the scallywag. Much more pirate-y.

Guybrush!!! (http://kael.civfanatics.net/files/APirateIWasMeanttoBe.mp3) would enjoy the promotion, but seeing as how he reguarly loses his boats its probably not appropriate.

Interesting piece of trivia. Guybrush remained unnamed for the begining of the MI project. Since they didnt have a name they just named the file that had his picture in it "Guy". The edtension on the art file was .brush, so in looking at it it was guy.brush, and that became his name.

Does anyone remeber? "You look like a monkey in a negliege!"

No? Just me. *sniff*

[I'm assuming on rereading that Darkwind is a boat.]

I think it'd be cool if he could use units to power up ships. I thought of two ways to do this, just depending on the functionality/what you would need to add.

A) He begins with str 5ish, buildable with the optices probably, and starts with boarding party and "Pirate Recruiter," an ability like donal Lugh that recharges--in his case when ever he captures a ship. But Recruit Pirate works in any city with a harbor, and gives 3 units: A sloop (caravel with +1move & +1 cargo space), a pirate boarder (basically boarding party with lower strength, and perhaps engraged) and one random other unit such as: a pirate gunner (only if blasting powder is known) which can be sacrificed to give any ship in the same tile an "expert gunner" promotion for +15% str; a pirate alchemist (only if alchemy is known) can be sacrificed to give any ship in the same tile an "firepots" promotion for collateral damage; a pirate carpenter (only if construction is known) that can give a ship "march" promotion, maybe renamed; a pirate doctor (only if medicine is known) that can give a ship medic 1 promotion; A first mate (only if celerty is known) that can give a shoip blitz; and maybe others like a pirate ghost giving fear, or a pirate whaler giving capture animal (for the krakens). Other than the "join ship" ability on these guys, they would be like the pirate boarders without the boarding party promotion. (Maybe give the pirates a free combat 1 promo if the city recruit is used in has a tavern ;))

This method would be fun I think, and simulate a legendary pirate putting in at the first port after a rough battle to grab a crew from whatever is availible. Downside is that it would require a handful of seldom seen units and might so be a waste of resources.

or

B) Rather than the recruit ability, give him a "press gang" ability. This would be somewhat similar to create flesh golem. Use the ability in any coastal city, must select an owned ship and friendly non-animal unit. Creates a "fully crewed" version of that ship that has (most of) the promotions of the press-ganged land-lubber, but otherwise the same stats as the ship. The fully-crewed promotion would prevent the ability from being used twice on one boat. (The land unit would disappear)

Some promotions would not be able to be transfed: Anti-unit type (like shock)& terrain defense for obvious reasons. Mobility, because ships have navigation, and it wouldn't translate to water. Chaneling would not, but Sorcery/Summoning and magic sphere pormotins would, so if an adept was added to an arcane barge (which starts with channeling 2) it'd get additional spells, but a privateer would not. City raider or garrison would not, of course. Undead or demon could, meaning a ghost ship that could learn fear. :evil: Hero probably shouldn't, but if you dragged a hero onto a ship, his other promotions would make for a formidable vessel. Enchantments ok, maybe? Oh, and summoned would too, if you tried to 'cheat' and add a str 5 imp to a boat, it'd take the boat with it in a turn :lol:

This would be a fun ability without adding the pirate units, but it may be a pain to code? Dunno

Im hoping we get some hidden nationality soon and then we can really have some fun with the Darkwind.

Guybrush!!! (http://kael.civfanatics.net/files/APirateIWasMeanttoBe.mp3) would enjoy the promotion, but seeing as how he reguarly loses his boats its probably not appropriate.

Interesting piece of trivia. Guybrush remained unnamed for the begining of the MI project. Since they didnt have a name they just named the file that had his picture in it "Guy". The edtension on the art file was .brush, so in looking at it it was guy.brush, and that became his name.

Does anyone remeber? "You look like a monkey in a negliege!"

No? Just me. *sniff*



Im hoping we get some hidden nationality soon and then we can really have some fun with the Darkwind.

Hidden as a trait sounds delicious. And having whole nations not appear on the map also sounds druel worthy.....and terrifying......how am i supposed to fight what i cant see??? Shadows already scare me. As does the darkness....and spiders...... My trasvestite dwarves will protect me.
-Qes

Im hoping we get some hidden nationality soon and then we can really have some fun with the Darkwind.

hrm, it may not be clear, but my post was intened for the boarding party hero, not the boat hero.

And I've never heard of Guybrush before seeing his name in the first post, what's it from?

QES: hidden nationality means you can see it, but don't know who it belongs to, so you can attack your friends or neutrals. Like in Civ 3.

hrm, it may not be clear, but my post was intened for the boarding party hero, not the boat hero.

And I've never heard of Guybrush before seeing his name in the first post, what's it from?

QES: hidden nationality means you can see it, but don't know who it belongs to, so you can attack your friends or neutrals. Like in Civ 3.

Guybrush is the hero for the Monkey Island series of games (awesome games). I think I have a picture of Manny in the mod from Grim Fandango (another adventure game from the same company).

hrm, it may not be clear, but my post was intened for the boarding party hero, not the boat hero.

And I've never heard of Guybrush before seeing his name in the first post, what's it from?

QES: hidden nationality means you can see it, but don't know who it belongs to, so you can attack your friends or neutrals. Like in Civ 3.

OOOH. I was thinking it'd be even more terrifying. Ok that makes more sense. Still... I like the idea of 100% invisable civs. Maybe some wonder could do it? All units become Invisable? And cities are unseeable by enemies? Sounds uber, but cool. Maybe it wouldnt last forever, but x amount of turns.
-Qes

P.S. OR it could belong to only one civ, they'd naturally need some massive negative modifiers to compensate for being invisable. The only way to attack them is to run into them accidently. The only way to conquer they're cities is to run into them and REMEMBER where they are. The AI shouldnt have an advantage over humans.....but i'm not sure how that'd work.

OOOH. I was thinking it'd be even more terrifying. Ok that makes more sense. Still... I like the idea of 100% invisable civs. Maybe some wonder could do it? All units become Invisable? And cities are unseeable by enemies? Sounds uber, but cool. Maybe it wouldnt last forever, but x amount of turns.
-Qes

P.S. OR it could belong to only one civ, they'd naturally need some massive negative modifiers to compensate for being invisable. The only way to attack them is to run into them accidently. The only way to conquer they're cities is to run into them and REMEMBER where they are. The AI shouldnt have an advantage over humans.....but i'm not sure how that'd work.


Yeah, the negative modifier of me Worldbuilder-ing their behinds out of the game!

Guybrush shouldn't be too strong; he fights like a cow!

Seriously though, if this version of Guybrush is going to be based on Mr. Threepwood, then I think he'd be better against melee opponents (after all, they'd be most responsive to a taunt, I think) and probably get a bonus vs. Undead and Demons.
Or something like that, I've not thought it out much. I'm just a fan of MI ^^;

How about allowing him to make vaudoo puppets and curse his opponents ? Or spit at ennemies ?

Make a Vaudoo Puppet : summons a "vaudoo puppet" unit which can't attack but can cast a "Vaudoo Curse" spell to an adjacent target. Vaudoo Curse gives the "Vaudoo Curse" promotion (yeah, I had to think a while to come up with that promotion name) to the targetted unit. I've little idea of what the VC promotion would do. Maybe Guybrush would have another spell called "Pin Strike", consisting of striking vaudoo puppets with a pin immediately dealing extremely small but really annoying damage to the target unit (maybe something as low as -10HP, along with a slight str penalty... the goal here to be annoying rather than deadly). Targets would have a chance to lose the Vaudoo Curse promotion each time they are pinned, or maybe only priests could remove it, your choice. The only tricky part would be to find a way to collect organic reagents for the curse, but I guess you can abstract that as being automatically done somehow when clicking the "Summon Vaudoo Puppet" button :D

Spitting : ranged spell, green and sticky :D I must admit I don't have any idea what it could actually do, but I DID spend a lot of time trying to understand how to win the spitting contest in MI2, and anyway I'd love to get a non-fireball ranged spell of some sort :D Suggestions I'm not really satisfied of : the victim would spend 1 or 2 movement points to clean itself after being spitted at (undeads would be unaffected I guess). Or maybe it would be visible from a greater range.


Well, unless somebody comes up with a good mechanics for spitting, you'll want to forget about that (I just had fun with the spitting contest in MI2, but I can see it doesn't fit well with the FfH background). But I do like the vaudoo thing (maybe without the useless puppet sumonning phase). I'd also consider trying to do something related to : underwater treasure searching ("I can hold my breath for 10 minutes !"), jungle exploration (explore temples ?) or monkey summonning (http://www.milegend.com/animations/images/monkeysdancing.gif)...

Is Yvain supposed to start with the "Elven" promotion?

Is Yvain supposed to start with the "Elven" promotion?

Yeap. I will change that in 0.15.

1. A new ability for loki. Create Grotesque Sculpture. Gives combat bonus in adjacent squares to balseraph unique units, and reduces combat strength of non balseraph units. (so ordinary balseraph units aren't affected). Doesn't stack and they can't be built adjacently. Can be built in rival territory, but gives a dip penalty.

You're looking for Guybrush/Dark Wind abilities, right?
1. Both of them can attack rival ships who you aren't at war with. (civ 3 hidden nationality)
2. Dark wind--Can attack rival ships that are harbored in a city. Gets triple gold from winning that battle.
3. Dark wind--carries 3 boarding parties, 50% chance of escaping when attacked (before battle, regardless of relative strengths).
4. Guybrush can "inspire" other boarding parties on his ship, meaning that they get any of the combat promotions that he has.

1. A new ability for loki. Create Grotesque Sculpture. Gives combat bonus in adjacent squares to balseraph unique units, and reduces combat strength of non balseraph units. (so ordinary balseraph units aren't affected). Doesn't stack and they can't be built adjacently. Can be built in rival territory, but gives a dip penalty.

You're looking for Guybrush/Dark Wind abilities, right?
1. Both of them can attack rival ships who you aren't at war with. (civ 3 hidden nationality)
2. Dark wind--Can attack rival ships that are harbored in a city. Gets triple gold from winning that battle.
3. Dark wind--carries 3 boarding parties, 50% chance of escaping when attacked (before battle, regardless of relative strengths).
4. Guybrush can "inspire" other boarding parties on his ship, meaning that they get any of the combat promotions that he has.

The Statue is an interesting idea but difficult to implement just because we dont have many layers to work with in terrain. The best would be to make it an improvement but then it will wipe the improvement that is already there. Meaning the player will have to decide between production or the bonus (and they will probably choose production) and it wont be possible to put in rival territories unless you are at war with them (because blocking or destroying their own improvement would be to powerful).

Maybe we just make loki into a flagbearer, so he gives bonus to all allied units around him.

And those sound great for the lanun heroes. Hopefully we can get hidden nationality worked out.

Okay, i just thought that his art could be very inspiring, but also demoralising to normal troops.

Here's another weird idea which probably doesn't deserve to make it in but I'll throw out:
Is a summoned hero possible? Gains experience from battle and at hero rate, has wide range of promotions (like a normal melee or whatever) but will disappear like summons?
Also, since it'd be a unique (world) unit, it will disappear if summoned elsewhere. Also, it'd be able to be summoned by other players who have the appropriate spell spheres (maybe metamagic and summon and channel 3). And if it died, then no one would be able to summon him again. Or else you'd summon a new one with 0xp and have to start over.

Here's another weird idea which probably doesn't deserve to make it in but I'll throw out:
Is a summoned hero possible? Gains experience from battle and at hero rate, has wide range of promotions (like a normal melee or whatever) but will disappear like summons?
Also, since it'd be a unique (world) unit, it will disappear if summoned elsewhere. Also, it'd be able to be summoned by other players who have the appropriate spell spheres (maybe metamagic and summon and channel 3). And if it died, then no one would be able to summon him again. Or else you'd summon a new one with 0xp and have to start over.

Yeah, We have been thinking about that since someone submitted the idea back in the design a unit contest for the giant worm. I do want to eventually get a summoned unit in the game, but it will be special art and art list is full of higher priority needs right now.

Hero Unit:

(unknown owner/reason for comming around - divine would be best)

The Nameless Hero

Hero would start out with 12-15 Str, be a mid game unit. Maybe he gains xp faster than normal heros? Or has a higher cap? (not high enough to get to the last promotion though, he'll have to fight to get there)


Heros promotions would be limited to the following.
-"Time on Earth 1-5"
-"Mission 1-3"
-"Sacrifice for the many"

"Time on earth" would be the opposite of "heroic strength" He'd lose strength over time, every time he was promoted. Time promotions would be necessary to get to the other promotions listed.

"Mission I" - Grant Loyalty and Valerousness to other units in stack
"Mission II" - Destroy Targeted (Summoned) Unit. - Or whatever type he'd be here to rid the world of.
"Mission III" - Build Building (without sacrificing him) in target city - again fitting with point of his being here

"Sacrifice for the Many" - Destroy All national units in the world, all civs go into anarchy, Nameless Hero is dead.

These are alterable, but i like the idea of a meloncholy and lamentatious hero who knows his time in this world is fleeting. He/she's just doin they best they can before its over.

-Qes

I was poking around in the xml files, trying to make this work, and I failed miserably, so I thought I'd bring it to you.

In your description of the Grigori heroes, you say they 'get heroes as great people.' What if all the Grigori great people were heroes, who kept the great people abilities, but also had the hero promotion, and the ability to upgrade into a single unit class, rather than the current separate great person type who is very versatile?

For instance, Grigori Bards could upgrade into Scout-types, Grigori Engineers warrior-types, Grigori Merchants horsemen-types, Grigori Sages adept-types, and Grigori Prophets into Grigori Inquisitioners or Grigori Medics?

Great Commanders could remain the same, or perhaps get a promotion that makes them immune to Marksmen, and gives bonus xp over time to units in their stack, like an adept's xp gains?

Their lack of religion is really cool for theme and style, but I've found that it puts a serious damper on their power, and having these more versatile great people could help to assuage that a bit.