Please post any ideas which you may have about a direction for our game, obviously know that our starting position will play a large roll in the future

Good now I can post mine:

#1 Iron is a must but:

Other civs will know this
Sirian will know this

So I can conclude it won't be in our radius, so need IronWorking ASAP to find it and get some.

The other two requirements for the Cho-Ku-Nu is Machinery and Archery
Both of which won't notify other civs when we get them (unless they have alphabet)
This is contrary to say if we had a samuria who require Civil Service, most people whould change to Beauracracy giving everyone the heads up that samurias are on the way

So this is good :)

Finally our starting techs are mining and agriculture, which implies one of two opening depending on map terrain
BW or pottery

BW if lots of forrests
pottery if lots of floodplains

The reason I say no early religion is
#1: there are two spiritual civs, they havea head start.
#2: Happiness won't be an issue on Noble or Prince

I have more But I am getting to excited so will take a breather :mischief:

I think we should go for the Oracle -> Metal Casting slingshot.


For those who don't have the game, the Oracle wonder lets you instantly research any available tech. Spending 150:hammers: (100:hammers: as an industrious leader) for a 600+:science: tech is a great deal.


Some common Oracle techs, in order of difficulty:

Monarchy - 390:science:
No extra prerequisites

Code of Laws - 455:science:
Writing(156) = 156 beakers needed

Metal Casting - 585:science:
Pottery(104) + The Wheel(78) = 182 beakers needed

Theology - 650:science:
Writing(156) + Monotheism(156) + Masonry(104) = 416 beakers needed

Feudalism - 910:science:
Monarchy(390) = 390 beakers needed

Civil Service - 1090:science:
Code of Laws(450) + Writing(156) = 606 beakers needed

Machinery - 910:science:
Metal Casting(585) + Pottery(104) + The Wheel(78) = 767 beakers needed


If we waste time researching 400+ beakers we will probably lose the Oracle to another team. So the last 4 are out.

Our closest competition will be India, who also gets a 33% discount on the Oracle. But none of the first 3 techs are that useful to India - they already have religion and happiness, and Metal Casting is a dead end for them. So if we focus on one of those 3, we are likely to get it.

Metal Casting is the best choice for us. The prerequisites are useful techs that we are researching anyway. It puts us 1 step closer to Cho-Ko-Nu's. And it enables cheap forges, which we will want to build everywhere.

So in conclusion, we should go for the Oracle -> Metal Casting slingshot!

:clap:

Brilliant!

Very succinctly and persuasively put DaveMcW!

Pyramids have become my favorite early wonder, but this is a more excellent plan.

If we get Stone, I still think we should consider making a bid for the Pyramids as a second wonder. As a Financial Civ, having they Pyramids allows us to use our cash advantage to spend gold to rush units in any tight spots (Universal Sufferage)– this is a huge advantage over only having pop-rushing available… esp for a financial civ like us.

Until we have enough gold stockpiled to make U.Sufferage attractive, we can use Representation to get +3 happy in our biggest 3 cities and bonus science on any specialists. (or Hereditary rule or Police State if we need some serious warmongering)

Although – my experience with China is that waiting till Cho-Ko-Nus to warmonger is VERY rewarding. You can build those buggers with a very limited compliment of other unit types and just DEVASTATE an opponent.

So, I'd advocate that we play nice till we secure our Cho-Ko-Nus, but keep an eye out for a near-by opponent that we want to smash in the early middle ages.

Very great explanation and reason for the Metal Casting Sling, DaveMcW :goodjob:
I need to keep reminding myself that were are playing agains't other humans, who also posses and know of similar strategies (i.e. Slinshots) as us. Which means we can't get too risky.

Other than that another added bonus is if some other civ was trying for a latter CS we can beat them, thus interrupting thier game plan :evil:


I had a couple other ideas come to me as well:

Although an early :religion: is out what about a mid game one? I am thinking at Theology, (mostly for the reason of Theocracy, which prevents the spread of other civs religions)

The #1 reason for this being I don't want other civs to know what we have and where. If our cities get infected with others :religion: then they have line of sight :(

For this reason as well open borders will have to be very carefully examined.

Theocracy (and thus Christianity) would be nice to pick up - but in my games with other humans, the scramble for a religion often sees Christianity go very early. Those that miss Buddhism or Hinduism make a play for Monotheism (Judaism) – if 2 people go for it, and once misses it – Theocracy is the fall back… maybe not right away, but they'll already have the prerequisite for it. Also – whoever gets Stonehenge can easily have a couple great prophets before we get to theology, and use one of the to discover a free religious tech… and that tech often seems to be Theology.

I've personally had better luck with aiming for Confucianism (Code of Laws) – CoL is a wonderful and necessary tech anyway.

But this experience may not be totally relevant, I've mostly played against theDivide, and he tends to religion monger… which has forced me to look outside the traditional path for my religions.

Sorry to ask the following, as I realize that most belongs in a different thread, but I'm sure I'm not the only one here who needs a little help following this discussion:
________
...if some other civ was trying for a latter CS we can beat them...
What's a CS? Is that like a Golden Age in civ3?
________
...an early :religion: is out...
I assume the prayer hands refers to Religion?
EDIT: I guessed the smilie code on the first try, so I can't be that far off :)
________
...line of sight...
I've read a little bit about this, but I haven't come across what it will actually mean for us in this game.
________
...open borders...
same thing with this...
________

Hi,

What's a CS?
Normally, CS stands for Civil Service, an important tech. I guess what he meant is that if someone tries to get CS with the Oracle, we will disrupt their game plan by taking the earlier MC (Metal Casting).

I assume the prayer hands refers to Religion?
Correct.

I've read a little bit about this [LoS], but I haven't come across what it will actually mean for us in this game.
If you control the holy city of a religion, you have line of sight to every city in the world that has that religion, meaning you see its size, garrison, and surroundings. That means for example, if Buddhism spreads to one of our border cities, the owner of the Buddhist holy city can see exactly what our defenses are. :eek:

same thing with this...[open border]
An open border agreement increases the chance that a religion spreads to your cities that have no religion yet. It also allows the other team to send missionaries to our cities, spreading the religion manually (and to cities that already have a religion), not only increasing their income if they have the shrine, but also gaining line of sight into the city.

Regarding strategy, I wait until the game has actually started. Especially the availability of marble/stone can seriously affect our strategy. No plan survives contact with the enemy...

-Kylearan

Regarding strategy, I wait until the game has actually started. Especially the availability of marble/stone can seriously affect our strategy. No plan survives contact with the enemy...
Excellent point Kylearan, we shouldn't get too caried away before the game has started.

I think it is helpful to have some ideas for a strategy, to help give focus to those first 10-15 turns before we really know what's around us or WHO is around is. (Depending on map size)
Obviously, we don't want to be locking into any specific plan... we'll need to be fluid in response to our surroundings and the actions of our neighbors.

However, having a general plan like "we want to get Bronze working and the Oracle asap" are, I think, good general goals – if not "strategies."

But your point is well made – there's no sense in getting carried to far beyond broad goals before we even see our start location!

I think it will also be useful to put ourselves in the other teams' positions right now: If we wound up being Ghandhi, what would our opening strategy look like?

This is mostly an academic discussion, as the opening terrain will have an enormous effect on the way the other teams open, but at least it's something to talk about and think through.

This will also serve as a benchmark against which we can measure the progress/strategy of our neighbors once we make contact.

Here's my very rough stab at what I expect from the other teams.
(aside from expecting the unexpected! ;) )

Team Aloha: Catherine (Russia)
Attributes: (Financial, Creative, Cossack UU – replaces Cavalry)
Strategy Expectation: A more peaceful game, maybe some warmongering near the end of the mid-game with their Cossacks, then back into a peaceful mode.



Team Innovia: Saladin (Arabia)
Attributes: (Philosophical, Spiritual, Camel Archer UU – replaces Knight)
Strategy Expectation: A grab for an early religion, then a focus on population growth to take advantage of Great People. Early great people used to get into a strong position to attack a neighbor near the beginning of the mid-game. Most likely Civ to be a warmonger in my book.



Team Piffle: Elizabeth (England)
Attributes: (Financial Philosophical, Redcoat UU – replaces Rifleman)
Strategy Expectation: A Largely peaceful game. Focus on Population growth and infrastructure development. Probably an effort to become a trading super-power.



Team Loco: Ghandi (India)
Attributes: (Industrious, Spiritual, Fast Worker UU – replaces Worker)
Strategy Expectation: A grab for an early religion, then a focus on getting some good early wonders. Pyramids a likely play – to take advantage of the Spiritual trait. A largely peaceful game is very likely.


At least – that's what I'd be inclined to do.
Other thoughts?

Does anyone know what other players like to do from prior games?

If you look at it from just looking at civs it seems as though we will have a largely peaceful game, but personally I doubt that this will be the case. :p

That's a great question… unless your definition of a "great question" is one that has an answer! :lol:

I've only got limited MP experience in Civ4, (all PBEM games) – but they've tended to be pretty peaceful. Making war seems to be harder in Civ4 than it was in Civ3.

At any rate – the best (although imperfect) comparison would be the Civ3MTDG – which has been, I think, surprisingly peaceful so far. This is at least partly due to the map layout, and the even distribution of resources that has made war to acquire critical resources totally unnecessary. However – we're just getting to the stage where the land will be all filled up, and we'll see if the peace can hold.

There's been one limited war, which the group consensus holds was a complete disaster for both sides… who are now at peace. There's almost been a 2nd war, but it looks like it will be avoided. The long time between turns gives so much opportunity for dialogue, thought, and second-guessing that war against a highly intelligent, adaptable opponent almost never looks good after long consideration.

The only exception to this would be a surprise early attack – but none of the Civ Choices of our enemies seem to lend themselves to this strategy.
Without the element of surprise, in Civ4 the deck is stacked in favor of the Defender, in my experience, and war will be even less appealing than it is in the Civ3MTDG.

Other opinions?

So if two civs are likely to go for an early religion, what sort of a threat, if any, does this pose to us?

Can thier Missionaries cross our borders willy-nilly? I had no idea that Line Of Sight was as powerful as it is. Obviously starting locations will have something to do with the threat, but is this something we can try to guard against?

Missionaries cannot cross our borders without an open-border agreement.
(or I suppose they could in a war, but since Missionaries can't attack a city, I'm not sure what the point of that would be? Does anyone know if you can spread religion in an empire you're at war with? I seriously doubt it.)

Anyway – Open borders allow trade outside of your own Empire, which is more profitable, and therefore more desirable.
Each city will automatically establish a trade route with 1 other city that is connected to it's trade network via roads, rivers, coasts, or some combination thereof. Depending on how far away the trading partner city is and how wealthy the other city is, the trade route will generate some base gold/commerce for your city. It's a very important source of income as the game goes along. Trade routes with far away and wealthy cities are the most desirable… but you need open borders or these trade routes will not be established.
You can get more than 1 trade route per city with the right technologies and civics settings.
But open borders also allows religion to flow along trade routes. If you already have at least one religion in a city, the odds of a second religion spreading along a trade route go WAY down (if not all the way to 0). And I'm sure I've never seen religion spread along a trade route to a city that already had 2 religions in it.

So open border agreements are pretty safe from getting a foreign religion as long as you already have a religious presence in all your cities.

Of course, missionaries are the wild card here, because they allow you to manually spread a religion without relying on the trade route RNG.
However – I'm not too worried about this, because we can easily make deals with other teams making it clear that their missionaries are NOT welcome in our lands. Since missionaries are defenseless, it'd have to be a well planned pre-sneak attack to get their religion in our border or costal cities.

Hopefully that shed more light than confusion!

So would we want to consider getting a religion before opening borders?

So would we want to consider getting a religion before opening borders?
That'd be safer for sure!

Of course, it's not really the end of the world to have your neighbor have LOS into your cities if you're both peaceful.
For example, it may be better than having NO religion at all. (No religion = no bonus happiness, no temples for even more happiness, etc. The more religions you have, the more happiness options you have)

Hi,

excellent posts, General_W!

Regarding the other team's leader choices, I'm quite surprised about them. Here's my take on them:


Team Aloha (Catherine/fin/cre/cossack): I definately expect them to make a semi-beeline to Military Tradition and wage war with their cossacks - they are just too good to pass up that opportunity. Their financial trait will help them in their beeline.


Team Innovia (Saladin/phi/spi/camel archer): I'm puzzled by this. Will go for an early religion most probably, plus great people - but great people won't win them the game. :confused: Their camel archers aren't that strong either (although I lack much experience with them), so...I dunno. They won't have a tech lead (not being fin), they won't be very aggressive (lacking the trait and a great UU) - maybe they go for culture? But would that be doable in a all-human game? I doubt it. I think they *have* to go for an early religion to have a chance to compete, and they *have* to spread it aggressively.


Team Piffle (Elizabeth/fin/phi/redcoat): Dangerous! Financial means tech lead which could be further boosted by their great people, and the redcoat is a good unit too, albeit a slow one.


Team Loco (Gandhi/ind/spi/fast worker): Almost guaranteed to go for lots of early wonders, Pyramids and Oracle especially. Almost guaranteed to remain peaceful in the beginning, and if they are our neighbours, a great target for our CKNs as the wonder building will distract them. :mischief: Or, if we have stone, we can deny them some wonders...


I think Gandhi is easiest to predict, but all others have all options open for them, including early war (Catherine and Elizabeth are financial so can have a tech lead/recover faster from war, and Saladin has a semi-early UU).

Also, I think the others will think that we will go to war once we have CKNs; it will be fun to see how they prepare for that, and if we really will do this. I agree with General_W that CIV favors the defender, so if every team has all important resources, the UU might be the deciding factor that can tip the scale, with Saladin having the weakest one IMHO.

I don't hope "no city razing" will be checked, that would definately hurt us and Saladin the most. By the time cossacks and redcoats appear, it's easier to keep all cities you capture without breaking your economy. With cho-ko-nus and camel archers, razing cities to hurt your opponent can be a good option instead of keeping everything.

The meta-game definately will become interesting!

-Kylearan

On the Religion note remember that they can spread by them selves with out a missionary (as a semi-ramdom event, and I'm pretty sure that each religion has a different probability for spread too). I'm also pretty sure that you don't have to have a ROP with the civ too, but don't quote me on that.

Hi,

it can be quite interesting to see what the other teams vote for. Team Innovia (Saladin/phi/spi) just voted for "city flipping after conquest"! That gives a hint about their game plan, which seems to be peaceful and doesn't seem to include a war with the intention of keeping cities, and/or that they go for high culture (maybe cultural victory even?), hoping that their high culture will flip back any outer cities that others might capture. EDIT: That would indeed match my initial guess that they might go for a cultural victory...

-Kylearan