Term 2 Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=157171)


More info to come after work.

Info that will follow:

Current trades and treaties
Current civ attitudes
polls and such.



Most Favored Nation System -

Origanal System (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=23769)

This is a system of deciding how we view other civs. In a way, the rankings sort of work like Civ4's +/- scale.

The following is from Civ3 DG1, with some changes:

The Ranking System - This lists the civs based on how we view them via a poll for each known civ in the game. The polls are based on a point scale from 5 (best) to 1 (worst).

I won't be using the -3 to +3 point system (with ranges of -9 to 9, 10 to 19, -10 to -19, etc.), as I discovered 2 flaws. (This is a testament to why I stink at legal wording -- took me 4 years to find it!!) First is that it required a lot of participation (3 people voting for MFN would only make it a Common Neighbor. Likewise, 20 people voting for "Common Neighbor" makes it a MFN.). So, the high participation requirement was its' own undoing under that system.

So, instead, I will be taking the average.

Most Favored Nations 4.5-5
Able Partner 3.5-4.49
Common Neighbor 2.5-3.49
Suspect Nation 1.5-2.49
Rouge Nation 1-1.49

Method of Trade - This is how we choose to trade with the said civ. For example, if Mongolia is a Rouge State, we might try to extort them for everything they've got!

MFN - Fair trade
AP - Small Gain
CN - Medium gain
SN - Large gain
RN - Extortionate gain

Alliances & Open Borders - The nature of Open Borders is different than Civ3. Civs can't declare war when an open border treaty is enabled (think of it as a Non-agression pact).

MFN - Always sign alliances/open borders
AP - Always sign open borders, but be cautious on alliances.
CN - Opportunistic
SN - Opportunistic
RN - Never sign any treaties except for declarations of war!

Extorsion - This is how often we'll try to extort the said civ.

MFN - Never
AP - Never
CN - Never
SN - Opportunistic
RN - Every 20 turns or less

Penalty/Reward System - This is a new system I'm making in which it helps to determine the ranking of that civ for the term. If a civ does one of the following:

- Requests a tech or gold amount (friendly request) - no change.
- Demands a tech, civic/religion change, or gold amount - rank lowers by one (i.e., MFN to AP).
- Gifts us a tech or gold - Rank increases by one (i.e., AP to MFN).
- Civ declares war on us - Rank decreases by three (i.e., MFN to SN).

[ Reserved ]

It seems to me that since the office of president is vacant due to the tie, the Secretary of State should assume the duties of the President, at least until such time as a run-off election is completed. Some things can be held off but I think under the circumstances a CJ should be appointed soon just in case the judiciary is called upon to resolve any important matters.

Well, then, for Chief Justice, I'll nominate Public Defender runner up, Nobody (yes, the user, 'nobody').

I second Nobody's nomination..

I'll third it, we need to have a court soon

Well, then, for Chief Justice, I'll nominate Public Defender runner up, Nobody (yes, the user, 'nobody').

Madam Secretary,

I'd like to direct your attention to section 8 of our code of laws:

V. Judicial Vacancies
a. The President must request interested citizens that do not currently hold office to contact them. If no such citizen contacts the President within 72 hours of the office being declared Vacant, the President may appoint any citizen to the office.
b. This appointment may be challenged by a confirmation poll.

I think you should make this request as soon as possible (and before actually nominating someone).

BUt there is no elected President so how can he appiont a cheifjustice,

BUt there is no elected President so how can he appiont a cheifjustice,

According to our code of laws, when the office of President is vacant the Secretary of State assumes presidential duties. This would include making any appointments the president would be authorized to make.

This is why I never even *THOUGHT* about running for the judiciary. :p

I accepted your Nomination for Cheif Justice. Thank you

Madam Secretary,

As your appointment of nobody as Chief Justice was made before your request that interested citizens contact you I urge you to rescind the appointment until the 72 hour period has lasped giving all interested citizens a chance to contact you so that an appointment can be made according to the procedure established by our code of laws.

I also urge nobody to refrain from assuming the role of CJ until such time as a proper appointment has been made.

Madame Secretary,
As a concerned citizen, I'm interested to know if you've had discussions with our esteemed Science Minister about our future opportunity to trade technology.

Science Minister's thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=160991)

I would like you to voice your opinion on an Open Borders agreement with Mongolia.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=161511

As SoW I really want to see what they got back there.

The first post has been updated with a Most Favored Nation system.

The first post has been updated with a Most Favored Nation system.

This looks interesting and I think it will help new and infrequently visiting citizens to keep track of what's going on. I have a couple of points:


presumably we are not bound to these categories? I.e. we citizens can still choose to do what we want even if it disagrees with what we said we would do for that nation's category?

I have a slight concern on relying too much on a category system like this, rather than examining each situation carefully. I think this is a key advantage of being human, rather than AI. E.g. a weakish 'rogue' nation being overrun by a powerful 'neighbour' nation. If we suspect that the more favoured nation is likely to become too powerful after its conquest and possibly become 'rogue', then we might choose to trade with the rogue nation to prolong the war and use up more resources of the powerful neighbour. Another e.g. is that classic human trait: backstabbing your best friend if you feel you have something to gain.

Madam Secretary,

After much discussion and polling it was decided that we wanted to do minimal trading, especially with Mongolia. Mongolia rec'd exactly 2 out of 23 votes ranking them above suspect nation in your department's poll. You own instructions (in line with citizen's wishes as expressed in said poll) were Suspect Nation: Mongolia. Refuse any demand, and refuse any trades. Yet we made not one but TWO trades with them. We traded away alphabet after citizen input that we should not do that. Citizens called for a trade to get us sailing and there is no indication in the game play summary that it was even checked for.

What do you plan to do since your posted instructions were not followed? Will you take any steps to ensure this does not happen in the future?

donsig,
Concerned Citizen

Dear Concerned Citizien,

What would you recommned doing Donsig. I just wanted to no. I think that while the citiziens will was not followed directly, anything that profits our nation is very good for the citiziens indeed! I would recommend the Great and Glorious Cheiftess commend those at the turnchat for there pro-active pursuuit of Licentian Knowledge.

Signed,
Swissempire,
Less-concerned citizien

Dear Concerned Citizien,

What would you recommned doing Donsig. I just wanted to no. I think that while the citiziens will was not followed directly, anything that profits our nation is very good for the citiziens indeed! I would recommend the Great and Glorious Cheiftess commend those at the turnchat for there pro-active pursuuit of Licentian Knowledge.

Signed,
Swissempire,
Less-concerned citizien

First I would recommend that Chieftess and not Swissempire reply to my earlier post. Second, I would expect not only Chieftess but the designated player to halt play and return to the forums if posted instructions could not be carried out. According to Chieftess's own poll we overwhelming designated Mongolia as at least a suspect nation. In another poll we decided we wanted to make minimal trades, especially with the Mongols. All that was flushed down the toilet by those at the chat. I want to know why Chieftess, who is certainly no demogame novice, allowed that to happen!

I am very dismayed that the one we have entrusted to be Censor is not concerned with the rights of citizens.

signed
donsig
an even more concerned ciitizen

First I would recommend that Chieftess and not Swissempire reply to my earlier post. Second, I would expect not only Chieftess but the designated player to halt play and return to the forums if posted instructions could not be carried out. According to Chieftess's own poll we overwhelming designated Mongolia as at least a suspect nation. In another poll we decided we wanted to make minimal trades, especially with the Mongols. All that was flushed down the toilet by those at the chat. I want to know why Chieftess, who is certainly no demogame novice, allowed that to happen!

I am very dismayed that the one we have entrusted to be Censor is not concerned with the rights of citizens.

signed
donsig
an even more concerned ciitizen

Dear Donsig,

I find this conversing in letters quite fun. Needless to say, i was not responding to your post, mearly asking you a question and expressing my opinion. Secondly, i am insulted by your out-and-out saying that i don't have the citiziens rights in mind. Lets not play politics here. You and i both know we both have citiziens rights in mind. If you don't, then your obviously not as smart as i thought you were. We just happen to have different opinions. If doing what is good for the citiziens or defending the people who did it isn't good for the citiziens, then I don't know what is! As i have said and will say, we trust these official, have elected them to represent us, and have given them this authority.

Secondly, how DARE you imply that since i have less experience than you or cheiftess, and that the people who ultimatly made the decisions, that we can't be trusted or even heard! Its a new game, and a new consituency, lets get with it Donsig. You are the worst kind of vetist

Sincerely,
Swissempire
An Apalled and Concerned Citizien

Swissempire,

In your opinion, were the actions in questions reflective of the requests of the people as expressed in the polls?

-- Ravensfire

Dear Donsig,

I find this conversing in letters quite fun. Needless to say, i was not responding to your post, mearly asking you a question and expressing my opinion. Secondly, i am insulted by your out-and-out saying that i don't have the citiziens rights in mind. Lets not play politics here. You and i both know we both have citiziens rights in mind. If you don't, then your obviously not as smart as i thought you were. We just happen to have different opinions. If doing what is good for the citiziens or defending the people who did it isn't good for the citiziens, then I don't know what is! As i have said and will say, we trust these official, have elected them to represent us, and have given them this authority.

Secondly, how DARE you imply that since i have less experience than you or cheiftess, and that the people who ultimatly made the decisions, that we can't be trusted or even heard! Its a new game, and a new consituency, lets get with it Donsig. You are the worst kind of vetist

Sincerely,
Swissempire
An Apalled and Concerned Citizien

Dear Apalled,

Yes, this is quite fun. It is great to know we agree on something. I am sorry you were insulted when I said you don't have citizens rights in mind but you obviously don't. While it is not listed in our constitution a fundamental human right is the right to make up one's own mind, even if in doing so one makes a mistake. I am quite comfortable letting my fellow citizens make their own choices and have faith that if they do not always choose wisely they will at least recognize their mistakes and correct them. It seems to me that in your opinion our citizens are not to be trusted to make choices. It seems you feel our citizens should be treated like children who should be seen and not heard and who need decisons made for them, otherwise they would bring ruin upon themselves and their country. If I misunderstand your philosophy please enlighten me.

I did not mean to imply that you have less experience than Chieftess or myself. I would never do that. Since both Chieftess and I have been involved in the demogames since term one of the first Civ III DG (and you were not), I would have simply come out and said you had less experience than us if that had been my point. I did mean to imply that since Chieftess has been involved in so many demogames she should have known that what transpired at the last chat was wrong. I really do hope she will respond to the questions I posted earlier in this thread.

signed
donsig
an extremely concerned citizen

It was pretty much an exception as, primarily, the version of the game I'm using is currently different than the one you're using. The results of the first trades were different, so I had to improvise. The patch should be arriving shortly, and then we'll all be on the same page.

Donsig,

I'd like to point out that This Poll (Science 3A) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=161435) was only an opinion poll, and it states in the first post that its sole purpose was to draw up a tech trading plan for the first round of techs. It was in this poll that we decided to have a minimal trading policy for the initial round of tech trades. It has nothing to do with the trade of IW because it was not available for the first round.

The result of this poll (Science 3B) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=162056) specified that we should trade for IW with Germany when possible. It did not state anything about Mongolia, because I had no idea they'd get it, much less be willing to trade it. Should it have been taken to the forums? Probably. The true intent of my plan was to get IW from whomever possible, but it was unstated because Germany was the only civ who had it at the time.

Dear Apalled,

Yes, this is quite fun. It is great to know we agree on something. I am sorry you were insulted when I said you don't have citizens rights in mind but you obviously don't. While it is not listed in our constitution a fundamental human right is the right to make up one's own mind, even if in doing so one makes a mistake. I am quite comfortable letting my fellow citizens make their own choices and have faith that if they do not always choose wisely they will at least recognize their mistakes and correct them. It seems to me that in your opinion our citizens are not to be trusted to make choices. It seems you feel our citizens should be treated like children who should be seen and not heard and who need decisons made for them, otherwise they would bring ruin upon themselves and their country. If I misunderstand your philosophy please enlighten me.

I did not mean to imply that you have less experience than Chieftess or myself. I would never do that. Since both Chieftess and I have been involved in the demogames since term one of the first Civ III DG (and you were not), I would have simply come out and said you had less experience than us if that had been my point. I did mean to imply that since Chieftess has been involved in so many demogames she should have known that what transpired at the last chat was wrong. I really do hope she will respond to the questions I posted earlier in this thread.

signed
donsig
an extremely concerned citizen

Dear Donsig(and Ravensfire, i answer his question in the letter too),

You should see the smile on my face, i haven't had this much fun in awhile. Now i don't see how i'm violating Human Rights. When have i stopped anyone from making up there mind? You made up your mind that you wished to call me out on this, I made up my mind that i would respond, the people at the turnchat made up there mind to do the trade, you made up your mind to write the first letter. I fail to see my human rights violation, but good try.

As for the citiziens rights violation, when did i ever try to protect the citiziens? I'm all for trial and error. In fact, I personally trust them enough to run for office, and then DO stuff in that office once their there. I trust them enough to listen to them. I trust them because we are all citiziens. I am, you are, we all are. An official is just a citizien trusted by the majority of citiziens. Trusted enough that authority is granted to them. Our citiziens are our country, they are our demogame.

For the Cheiftess Thing, it may have been wrong in your opinion, but you should let her make up her own mind, instead of assuming that since you have both been around long enough that your opinions must snych up. Delusions of Superiorty only create delusions.

And to ravensfire, in my opinion yes they were. If you go back and read the polls, our trading policy was decided so we wouldn't grow to powerful, powerful enough to be loathed. We clearly haven't. ANd i find two trades a minimal amount, so it fits there too. As for the Mongolian Classification, they were voted suspect because we know there was going to be eventual war. We didn't want to give them any advantages. Yet, by gaining Iron Working, we have allowed ourselves the ablility to build swordsman, and offensive unit, and have closed the gap between us and the Mongols. By getting IW without benifiting them militarily, we came out on top, and followed the citiziens will.

Sincerely,
Swissempire
Citizien who keeps upping Donsigs adjective

If I'm reading the Secretary of State instructions in the March 8th turnchat correctly, the DP acted in direct violation of instructions. Now it's a really good thing I didn't put my name in for CJ, because that would have prevented me from filing the necessary Citizen's Complaint. If there was so much pressure in the chat to conduct a trade against the instruction to refuse all trades, the play session should have been stopped so it could be put to a discussion and vote.

Donsig,

I'd like to point out that This Poll (Science 3A) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=161435) was only an opinion poll, and it states in the first post that its sole purpose was to draw up a tech trading plan for the first round of techs. It was in this poll that we decided to have a minimal trading policy for the initial round of tech trades. It has nothing to do with the trade of IW because it was not available for the first round.

The result of this poll (Science 3B) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=162056) specified that we should trade for IW with Germany when possible. It did not state anything about Mongolia, because I had no idea they'd get it, much less be willing to trade it. Should it have been taken to the forums? Probably. The true intent of my plan was to get IW from whomever possible, but it was unstated because Germany was the only civ who had it at the time.

The poll results have no standing in this question. The instruction was to refuse all trades with Mongolia, which should also be interpreted as make no trades. If such an instruction was posted against the people's will, then maybe there would be a case against Chieftess for posting bad instructions, but that's not the question at hand. Since the instructions were not followed there is also a very strong case against the DP, who is required to either follow them, or stop and get clarification in the forums.

Whether the trade itself is beneficial or not is immaterial. The fundamental overriding principle is that the DP is not allowed to ignore or contradict instructions.

It was pretty much an exception as, primarily, the version of the game I'm using is currently different than the one you're using. The results of the first trades were different, so I had to improvise. The patch should be arriving shortly, and then we'll all be on the same page.

No, you did not have to improvise. All you had to do was say, the version of the game I'm using is currently different than the one you're using. The results of the first trades were different which should have been immediately followed by let's take this to the forums.

I doubt you tried to mislead anyone or that you knew the different versions would affect the trades in this way. I also know how disappointing it can be to halt a game play session but this instance surely warranted it. Citizens made choices based on erroneous information and we should have been given the chance to see the correct information, discuss the matter and review our decision.

What steps are being taken regarding potential trades until the patch arrives and we're all playing the same version?

@Daveshack

I have to say something now since everyone seems to have such a big problem with what happened at the last turnchat. You must have not read the turnchat log at all to say that I blatantly ignored instructions. Chieftess was at the turnchat and instructed each and every trade that happened. While she may have contradicted earlier instructions that she made at no point did I decide to just change instructions without input from the official who made those instructions.

@Daveshack

I have to say something now since everyone seems to have such a big problem with what happened at the last turnchat. You must have not read the turnchat log at all to say that I blatantly ignored instructions. Chieftess was at the turnchat and instructed each and every trade that happened. While she may have contradicted earlier instructions that she made at no point did I decide to just change instructions without input from the official who made those instructions.

Instructions must be made in advance in the instruction thread. Instructions given at the chat are not binding and cannot override instructions in the forum.

Here's the way I see it. If a critical tech like IW (and many in the future) I would suggest we use shorter turns (3-4). Then there won't be the judicial scrutiny because honestly the situation is changing very rapidly at this point (and in the future). This is unfortunate but it seems there's no other way.

Instructions must be made in advance in the instruction thread. Instructions given at the chat are not binding and cannot override instructions in the forum.

B) Actions of the Designated Player
I. Instructions of Elected and appointed officials:IB. The Designated Player shall follow all instructions from elected and appointed officials regarding their respective areas.1. If no instructions from a given office are posted for a game session the Designated Player assumes the powers of that office for the game session.
2. The Designated Player must refuse all illegal instructions. The Designated Player may request a Judicial Review to determine the validity of an instruction and delay play until the Judicial Review has been completed.IB. Legal Exploits1. Any Legal Exploits pertaining to Article E section 4 of the Constitution will go here.

This is what it says in the CoL about the DP actions. If I missed something please point it out to me but I don't see anywhere that says the official must post it in the forums as opposed to giving insructions at the turnchat.

1. If no instructions from a given office are posted for a game session the Designated Player assumes the powers of that office for the game session.

The meaning of posted is in the forum. One does not "post" in a chat.

IB. The Designated Player shall follow all instructions from elected and appointed officials regarding their respective areas.

This in no way suggests that only posted instructions are to be followed

I also would like to ask. If you were serving as CJ could you render a ruling that interpreted that section as saying that only posted instructions are to be followed? Especially since the line you noted is a sub item that refers only to what happens if no insructions are given?

Just to note, I'm gonna be offline the rest of this weekend -- Spring Cleaning. Basically, it doesn't look like any trades to make right now, but I'll check later tomorrow after everything in my room is rearranged.

Seriously Daveshack, Bengeance was in the right on this one. In no way shape or form was his actions illegal. As DP, he was only following instructions. The posted rule is there to give him the power to do something if an official gives him no instructions. It in no ways means that the official has to post his instruction in the forum. You are using one word to make a whole new rule!!

Fine, then Chieftess didn't follow the will of the people. Doesn't matter to me who we whack for it, we were not supposed to trade to Mongolia under any circumstances.

A shame that those calling for justice are the same that are calling for an extended time period for selecting our Chief Justice. I'd be surprised if this case even saw the light of day this term.

A shame that those calling for justice are the same that are calling for an extended time period for selecting our Chief Justice. I'd be surprised if this case even saw the light of day this term.

Only some of them... I'm firmly in the camp that says the 72 hour time limit doesn't need to run its course if the President picks a citizen who doesn't already have an office.

Seventy two hours was up how many days ago guys? I'm seriously beginning to wonder what will happen first, a CJ appointment or the next turn in the cage match. Hopefully CT will have her room rearranged before either of these happen and will then answer the latest question I posed:

What steps are being taken regarding potential trades until the patch arrives and we're all playing the same version?

Now before you get testy donsig, I was at the hospital today because my grandmother had a stroke. (Yes, I have something called a real life) I might be there all week after work for a few hours while the family visits, so...

I'm going to have to resign as I won't have enough time in the next week or so (and it's already close to 1/2 the way through the term). I know that some will make a conspiracy theory out of this, but real life does take precidence.

Take care Chieftess. I hope everything will be ok.

Sorry to hear about your grandmother CT. I join Whomp (and I'm sure everyone else) in hoping everything will be ok.

I guess since you're resigning we don't have to worry about different versions for now.

Hope your grandmother gets better. Tell her that some kid she'll never meet is praying for her.