Well with all but one of my SG's having finished and me with all this free time I thought I might as well start up another SG.

Game Settings

Vanilla 1.29f
Standard
Continents
70% Water
Wet
Warm
5 Billion Years

8 Civs (7 random opponents)
Deity
All Victory Conditions enabled but Space Race is the only acceptable victory to us (mostly there to make things difficult, we have to get there before they win by culture)
Culturally Linked start locations: OFF
Respawn AI: OFF
Preserve Random Seed: ON

This is, believe it or not, the very first start I rolled up after opening Civ III!

http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/5131/picture28ff.jpg

Game Rules
As modified from LK Rules

The following tactics are PROHIBITED:

No 'Free Wealth' - Setting a city to wealth at the end of its project and then cycling through the cities at the start of the next turn and changing its project so that you still get the gold (commerce being calculated before anything else in the turn) but also get production

RoP Abuse Tactics - Denying resources, blocking key tiles, RoP rape, or other ways to screw-up a civ via the RoP. A scout in AI territory has an explicit RoP and is subject to this rule.

Peace Treaty abuse - If you get concessions from the AI you must wait for the 20 turns to end before declaring another war.

Resource abuse - You can't disconnect / reconnect a resource every turn for the sake of building cheap units to upgrade with excess cash.

Ship chaining exploit - you can move a ship, unload troops to another ship in the same square not using any movement, move that ship, etc. This allows you to ship an indefinite distance, and that is why I consider it an exploit.

The negative science exploit - you can run a huge deficit (-250 / turn) of negative cash with a token penalty of one lost worker / cheap building. If cash will go below zero, the research level must be dropped.

Worker baiting - You can't spread around and sacrifice workers to an oncoming attack. This is often done to avoid losing real units or cities. This takes advantage of the AI failure to prioritize targets.

Worker blockades - You can't fortify a bunch of workers along the coast to prevent invasions, or shut down the borders with workers. The workers must be actively doing something.

House rules:
1) Worker automation of any kind is prohibited.

2) Our reputation is golden - please respect it.

3)You ARE allowed to initially keep a city, move a settler to the same spot as the city, and then abandon and immediately resettle.

4)In addition if you need to build a city one square deeper into enemy territory just to move borders to steal a resource, go for it.

5)We may keep or raze cities, and can keep slaves and you may whip at will, including captured cities or cities where all citizens are unhappy

6) Even if not covered under exploits listed, please try not to use tactics that take advantage of holes in the game design unless previously discussed and approved by the team.


SG Rules

24 hour got it
72 hour playing time
The first player will play 30 turns, the rest of the team will play 20 turns in the first round. Once everyone has played 1 turnset all players will play 10 turn turnsets.


Roster:

tupaclives
Andronicus
CommandoBob
Merlin
Open

Also with a save like that we should probably consider some sort of variant to make things a little harder.

The Save

If you dont mind another Aussie I'm willing to pitch in :cheers:

I,ve never played vanilla :p but did play a few PTW GOTMs last year
Never actually launched a SS either :p :p - only attempt resulted in accidentally triggering dom limit

This should take we out of my comfort zone - just the challenge I need :lol:

Great thats 1 in! I can't remember the last time I launched a SS either, not since Chieften I think :lol: haven't even made it to the modern age in a SG yet either!

It has been a long time since I have played vanilla, I prefer Chocolate.

I will join this if you want and I am another Aussie.

Go the green and gold team! :lol:

Thats 3 in the team now.

I'd like to join. I don't think that we need any more difficult variant. The land is very narrow, so we don't get a decent core.

Welcome aboard Merlin!

Thats true about the narrowness. We'll see how things go. That makes 4 players, ideally I'd like a team of 5-6 so we'll wait until for another player or 2 to sign up.

Three cows do make up for that. It is going to be weird have armies that do not do what they do in [c3c]

I don't understand the fuss about armies in vanilla. From what I gather they are a lot stronger in Conquests (i have never played conquests or PTW) however they are still very useful to have around in vanilla, and they can pillage just as effectively as in C3C if you are a little creative (a defensive army like pikes/muskets etc. covering a horse, the defensive army moves onto a tile and the horse follows and pillages, take 2 horses once you get to rails).

Looking at the start how do you think we can get the best out of it? i would move the settler 1NE to the grassland on the coast and found there, start roading the cow immediately with the worker. Max on pottery and build order of jag-->jag-->jag-->settler-->granary.

Vanilla or PTW armies are useless compared to Conquest armies. They cannot blitz and they do not have n extra movement and they do not heal in enemy territory. That is what makes armies so much better in Conguests. The blitz is perhaps the best ability that they have.

Armies do blitz in vanilla, just armies filled with 1move troops cant blitz as they only have 1 movement point. but fast moving armies (horses/cavs etc.) do blitz.

Looking at the start how do you think we can get the best out of it? i would move the settler 1NE to the grassland on the coast and found there, start roading the cow immediately with the worker. Max on pottery and build order of jag-->jag-->jag-->settler-->granary.

I agree with NE settler move
SW is BG so optoins are W - poss too much coast, NW or NE - all get 3 cows giving 5fpt without irrigation. Advantage of NE is can work 2 cows when grow size 2 before expansion - a small difference, but could be sig.
With no river our commerce will be very poor, should we consider min or zero research?
jags for exploration and mp I assume
granary would be good - forest chop would help, but IIRC they are much slower than in conquests

Havnt played Aztecs before - would seem difficult to avoid despotic GA unless find iron before war

Actually, if you can find iron fairly quickly, the Aztec are good for the super-promotion technique. As long as you haven't triggered your Golden Age, you can keep producing your unique unit. With a decent economy, you can crank out cheap jaguar warriors in just a turn or two in even moderately corrupt cities, then upgrade them instantly into the much more time-consuming MedInf or Sword or even Geurilla if you're that far into the game. If you have Leo's you can really afford to flood the world with some pretty decent units. Obviously the upgrades cost money, but the point is being able to produce the low-shield units quickly. I used this strategy on a huge map using the Aztecs and the AI could never keep up with my unit production.

Probably not a practical strategy for the upper levels, but up through Emperor it should work fine. I've always meant to try it out with Egypt, instantly turning war chariots into knights or cavs, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

Forest chops take 10 turns for non-industrious civs in vanilla, 5 turns for industrious civs. I no we lack a river but what that means is we will actually benefit from our (mostlikely) early GA. Not a great tradeoff but won't be too bad. I'd still opt for max on pottery simply because we need a settler farm asap. We could then minsci to alpha hoping to get it first for trade... (assuming no commercial civs of course)

I would like to play this game but my non-Chieftain experience is limited. One win on Monarch (PTW) and several games in progress (see my sig) and SGOTM9 on Team Smurkz.

Mid week turns are not good for me due to Wednesday night church services. I get home after 9pm.

And if these things aren't enough:
I'm not an Aussie, only a Texan.

Ideally I'd like a single player win on emperor but i dont think it would be much of a problem.... alright your in CommandoBob! Welcome Aboard :goodjob:

That gives us five players so lets start.

I put all the names in a hat and drew them out in this order

classical_hero
tupaclives
Andronicus
CommandoBob
Merlin

So thats the roster order.

Classical Hero starts us off (remember 30 turns for the first player). If anyone needs a skip or swap please try to post BEFORE your 72 hours are up.
Good luck Classical Hero!

I don't understand the fuss about armies in vanilla. From what I gather they are a lot stronger in Conquests (i have never played conquests or PTW) however they are still very useful to have around in vanilla, and they can pillage just as effectively as in C3C if you are a little creative (a defensive army like pikes/muskets etc. covering a horse, the defensive army moves onto a tile and the horse follows and pillages, take 2 horses once you get to rails).

Looking at the start how do you think we can get the best out of it? i would move the settler 1NE to the grassland on the coast and found there, start roading the cow immediately with the worker. Max on pottery and build order of jag-->jag-->jag-->settler-->granary.

I believe armies cannot pillage in vanilla. In C3C they not only can pillage, they do not even use any movement to do it. That is very strong, and I tend to not allwo myself to use it.

Exta movement as was mention is a real big deal. Calv armies can move 4 and attack 4 times. They are much strong as well.

Check this:

if you load an army with all units the same type and supposing those units are 6/3/3 (i.e. Cavalry) then:

Attack bonus with:
Neither Pentagon nor Military Academy: (6+6+6)/6 = +3
Pentagon only: (6+6+6+6)/6 = +4
Military Academy only: (6+6+6)/4 = +4 (rounded down)
Both Pentagon and Military Academy: (6+6+6+6)/4 = +6

With Pentagon and Military Academy, assuming you load 4 units of the same type into each army, the net result is to simply double their attack and defense stats, because the bonus is (4*X)/4 = +X Which makes a 4-Cavalry army into a 12/6/4 unit.

Movement is +1 to the slowest unit in the army.
Armies have a built in radar function and can see two squares.
Free pillaging.
Units specail ability is lost if not homongenous.
Armies are treated as if you had battlefield medicine for healing. They fully heal in a city with a barracks, just like a individual unit.
Att/def is calculated for the currently attacking or defending unit, so if it is a mix army, they change to reflect the one fighting at that time.

Game Rules
As modified from LK Rules
...
House rules:
...
SG Rules
...

Is it OK to check F10 to "discover" the other civs?
Are MapStat and CivAssistII allowed?

Is it OK to check F10 to "discover" the other civs?
Are MapStat and CivAssistII allowed?

I was about to pose same question:crazyeye:

Im not deity material. Lurker Hotel is where i'll be staying.:D

Since this is Vanilla, is RCP considered an exploit?

In Nero04, Post #385 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3585438&postcount=385), we did a palace jump. Would this instance of a Palace Jump be considered an exploit in this game?

Can we (not will we) be able to build the Great Library?

At some point we will need to build the UN, just so no one else does (a no-brainer).

I would like to think that the Alpha Aztecs could conquer their land mass fairly quickly and keep the other landmass in a constant state of turmoil, allowing us to research in peace while they fight each other. Or we could eliminate all but one of the other civs. Don't know which is best; will depend on the game. Just thinking out loud.

Do we have to use Aztec city names? Couldn't they be Australian Aztecs that have dreams of inter-stellar glory?

(Note: I sometimes use expressions that may be "local" and may not make sense to anyone. I try to avoid doing this, but I still make mistakes. If I say anything that is not clear, feel free to ask me what I meant. If you don't understand what I meant, no one else did either.)

By the way, I live in the Dallas-Fort Worth area of the state of Texas, US, GMT -6.

Do we have to use Aztec city names? Couldn't they be Australian Aztecs that have dreams of inter-stellar glory?


Fine by me. In 2004 I spent six months backpacking around Australia...

@vmxa - armies in vanilla cannot attack nearly as well as in C3C, nor can they pillage, that is correct however as I said, you can improvise, a defensive army (which you'd use for pillagin anyway) covering a horse or something similiar, you move the army onto the tile and then follow with a horse (or 2 move unit) and pillage with that unit.
My personal opinion is that is the greatest use for armies and they are very useful on any map or victory type.

@CommandoBob & Andronicus - I don't consider F10 an exploit. Mapstat and Civassist you are welcome to use although I myself have never found much use for them aside from checking the domination limit and the like. I'd rather you not use it to check what techs the other civs have, you can make fairly good assumptions from looking at the in-game stuff anyway.

@Just CommandoBo - I do not consider a free palace jump to be an exploit provided that it is not used to jump the palace to some far away location to eliminate corruption.
RCP is not an exploit however I consider the Remote Palace Jump to be an exploit.
If we can i see nothing wrong with building the Great Library however I would prefer not to build it at the detriment of our empire. Rushing it with a leader for example or dedicating a high shield city to it once we are up and running.
I see nothing wrong with using Australian/Aztec city name crosses if noone else has a problem.

@vmxa - armies in vanilla cannot attack, that is correct however as I said, you can improvise, a defensive army (which you'd use for pillagin anyway) covering a horse or something similiar, you move the army onto the tile and then follow with a horse (or 2 move unit) and pillage with that unit.
My personal opinion is that is the greatest use for armies and they are very useful on any map or victory type.
I've no doubt vanilla armies dont stack up with conquests - vmxa's analysis was spot on. However this game is vanilla so the point is moot. We use armies as they are able to in vanilla - defensive units to protect pillager

Mapstat and Civassist you are welcome to use although I myself have never found much use for them aside from checking the domination limit and the like. I'd rather you not use it to check what techs the other civs have, you can make fairly good assumptions from looking at the in-game stuff anyway.
The tech info avail is the same as in there F4 screen - just you dont have to go through the leaders 1 by 1. If you are at war and they will not talk then civassist will not show the info just as you cannot find this from F4


I see nothing wrong with using Australian/Aztec city name crosses if noone else has a problem.

I'll provide the South Aussie names :D
lets start with Oodnadatta, Orroroo, Kalangadoo,Andamooka :mischief:

I've no doubt vanilla armies dont stack up with conquests - vmxa's analysis was spot on.

Oh I never disputed the fact that armies in vanilla are inferior to those in Conquests but there seems to be this myth that armies in vanilla are useless and I was trying to show that although they are not as effective as in conquests they are a very useful and effective tool if used properly.


The tech info avail is the same as in there F4 screen - just you dont have to go through the leaders 1 by 1. If you are at war and they will not talk then civassist will not show the info just as you cannot find this from F4

Ahh i see, i personally dont use either but I was under the impression that with them u could see all the techs that a civ has even beyond the tier you are at (so for example if u didnt have PP but another civ had Free Artistry you would be able to see that they had Free Artistry)


I'll provide the South Aussie names :D
lets start with Oodnadatta, Orroroo, Kalangadoo,Andamooka :mischief:

Alright but I'll supply the Queensland names and classical_hero the WA names
;)

We'll have to let Merlin and CommandoBob contribute names obviously though :crazyeye:

Why don't we just name th cities oursleves and it should not matter because we have put our own imput into them. It has been awhile since I have played [civ3]. I have a problem as it keeps closing whenever I try and open a save.

Are you sure you are patched up to 1.29?

I have everything the latest. For some reason the game CTDs. It looks like I will have to sit this one out until I can get this fixed. Unless someone knows what might be the Problem. It happens whenever I am about to enter the save after it has loaded.

Could you post a screenshot?

All that happens is when I go into the save, after it has loaded This is just a sample picture because I am now in [c3c]
http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/2779/civproblem1kf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
When I click to enter, the game CTD.

The saves yo uare trying to load, they are vanilla saves arnt they? Have you tried opening the save I posted?

Give me some credit. :shake: I just used a conquest save for a pictoral purposes only.

Sorry mate I was just trying to look like I had some clue how to fix it :lol:

I thought vanilla would considering that Conquests works. I have no idea why this happens, because I thought that having a more difficult progrm to work would mean that a smaller program would be fine. :confused: It looks like I will be a lurker because if I have uninstal and then reinstall the program for it to work, then I will not be bothered to do that, because it is just too much of a hassle for me. I am quite [pissed] as a result of this.

Alright in that case we'll open your spot up, if you get Vanilla working letting your welcome to rejoin the team, if not then theres not much we can do about it.

That means there is still an open spot.

New Roster:

tupaclives
Andronicus
CommandoBob
Merlin
Open

i'll wait until getting a 5th team member before starting.

I thought vanilla would considering that Conquests works. I have no idea why this happens, because I thought that having a more difficult progrm to work would mean that a smaller program would be fine. :confused: It looks like I will be a lurker because if I have uninstal and then reinstall the program for it to work, then I will not be bothered to do that, because it is just too much of a hassle for me. I am quite [pissed] as a result of this.
I had problems getting Vanilla to run under PTW. I had tried to patch an already patched-out-of-the-box Civ vanilla, not knowing it was already patched, which I think created the problem in the first place. I got desperate and copied the Civ vanilla exe file from the PTW CD onto my hard drive and vanilla has worked fine ever since.

The issue I had was that the game would not start, which is different from what you are describing.

Umm, can you open the save with PTW or C3C?

I now have tried to open it with conquests and surprise, it actually works in conguests, so it seems that I can be part of this game. :woohoo: [party] I am playing it right now. There is one problem, I can now build airfields from the start, but I will not do that since it should come with a latter tech. The good news is that I am back in the game. I will see if I can ply it in [ptw]

Note to self: We are not agricultural anymore, we are back to religious and militaristic as our traits, so it doe not matter too much not settling on a fresh water source.

First turn I move directly east. While it means that in the first ten turns before growth, we cannot access the cows, we will get them, but it seems to be a risky choice because we are right near some jungle and that is not good for our cores. I am producing a Jag as the first unit, unfortunately it is not a car. ;) Here are some pictures that represent what I did for the first few turns.
Here is our captial, Perth.
http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/4760/perth16mc.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Here is the known world after settling Perth.
http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/91/perth2no.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I started on Alphabet as this is the mosst expensive to go for and all techs will take 40 turns no matter what.
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/4646/science1zf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Now one of the first things that I will do is connect us to that fur so that we can leave the lux rate lower for longer and thus we can research quicker.

On turn six I produce our first jag, now we shall explore quickly with it.

turn seven: We meet America and we trade Ceremonial Burial and Warrior code for Pottery and 10g, since we need that for Granaries and this is quite important for us. I know I am paying quite a bit for it, but it is better than researching it ourselves.

Turn 14 we meet Germany and we get Bronze working for Pottery

Turn 30 We are war with the Germans. They destroyed a city of ours. We must now get going because we do not have much. We are really up against it since we have some spears, warriors and Archers coming towards us, so we must be strong against them and hopefully we can do some damage to them.

Here is the map as I leave it.
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4592/map11pr.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

and
http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/5124/map23fd.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The next player must help us win the war against the Germans.

That cant be right - it was the Japs who invaded Australia in WWII (or was it the English who invaded Australia in the European invasion ?) :lol:

Seriously those aggressive Germans are about the last civ you want on your starting continent at higher levels. Did they demand tribute initially or just do their usual sneak attack?

Are we in our GA?

We need writing to get American alliance, we need ....

DONT PANIC ;)

Now if those Germanss would just go away we have a nice setup for 4 turn warrior / setter factory operating size 4.5 to 6.5 (req granary and rax for vets) with room for a few more 4 ring cities.
Wishful thinking ??

Uh we have a slight problem with the game...

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/3879/bugger13dd.jpg

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/4136/bugger21yf.jpg

I didnt even make it to loading the game, as soon as I tried to open it that happened.

You can open a Vanilla game with conquests... once saved it cannot be opened by vanilla.

I dont have conquests at all, thats why this game is vanilla instead of conquests or even PTW.

Suggestions lads?

First turn I move directly east. While it means that in the first ten turns before growth, we cannot access the cows, we will get them, but it seems to be a risky choice because we are right near some jungle and that is not good for our cores.
I think you mean west since Perth is on the west coast.
I query why west and not NE to gain the 2 cows prior to expansion (as discussed in post 12)
SW is BG so optoins are W - poss too much coast, NW or NE - all get 3 cows giving 5fpt without irrigation. Advantage of NE is can work 2 cows when grow size 2 before expansion - a small difference, but could be sig.
With no river our commerce will be very poor, should we consider min or zero research?

Let's play this with guys who have a working Vanilla. A bit sad for Classical Hero, but what can you do...

We could start with 4 players so that this doesn't die out. Get the fifth, if he/she shows up.

The sad thing is that this reveals the map for us. I'm fine with playing this map from the start or starting a new one.

I'm having to agree with merlin here as I'm understandably not real keen on dropping out of my own SG...

merlin also bring up and intersting point, the map has been revealed... do we consider it too much of an exploit to continue with this map from the beginning knowing most of our continent and who we share it with or should we roll a new start with the same settings?

Um, I might have a prob too

I have civ3 complete - it has file for vanilla civ but when I try opening civilisation3.exe I get DRIVE READ ERROR please insert Civilisation III : Complete Play Disc into CD drive none of the 3 discs then seem to work :cry:

I thought this was how vanilla worked since I was able to play PTW by doing similar with PTW .exe file and using PTW disc

Any advise?

None from me sorry I have no idea.

i dont know why but my version of vanilla doesnt need a cd. After I patched it up to 1.29f it doesnt matter if the cd is in the computer or not, it still runs.

Ack, this is turning into a bit of a debacle!

I'm afraid the Australian contingent is letting you down - I'm very sorry :blush:

I cannot load classical hero's save, but I can play the original save in PTW, but of course this would just produce the same problems

I think you mean west since Perth is on the west coast.
I query why west and not NE to gain the 2 cows prior to expansion (as discussed in post 12)
I did move west. It really did not matter too much in the grand scheme of things.

I will se what can be done. I might need to play it in PTW, but I had a problem doing that, so I will need o have a look into that.

EDIT. I am now playing it in [ptw], so we see what happens this time. Take two.

The Things that are different this time around. I managed to get Masonry instead of Pottery for the first trade. This is with the Americans. I trade with the Germans and I trade Masonry and Ceremonial Burial and 2gpt and 24g for Bronze working. Another thing that is different is the fact that we aee not at war. Hopefully this save will be fine. This time I played in [ptw] so hopefully this will work now.

Nope. Same message. Vanilla doesnt seem to want to handle anything other than Vanilla. I knew PTW wouldnt work because it was tried in Tupac02 without success but I gave this save a whirl but no good result. Same message as the conquests save...

Well then I am out.

Thats a real shame. As before, if at a later date you get vanilla working your place will still be here.

I guess that makes me up then, we might as well start and hopefully a 5th member will join later.

Anyone up for putting together a collection so we can ship tupaclives a copy of CivComplete for the mac? :lol:

Turn 1 - Move settler 1NE onto grassland, worker starts roading the cow.

IBT - zzz

Turn 2 - found Tenotchtitlan: --> jag
Research set to pot at max.

IBT - zzz

Turn 3 - zzz

IBT - zzz

Turn 4- worker finishes roading, set to road cow S of Teno.

IBT - zzz

Turn 5- zzz

IBT - zzz

Turn 6 - Firs jag finished, set to mp duty. teno: jag --> jag.

IBT - American scout rocks up.

Turn 7 -Call up America and trade CB for Pottery + 20 gold (all they had, they found any trade for Mas 'insulting') set research to alpha (still at max).

IBT - American scout moves south, haha they now know more about our own lands then we do!.

Turn 8 - Teno grows to size 2.

IBT - zzz

Turn 9 - zzz

IBT - American scout dissapears.

Turn 10 - Teno: jag--> jag, send jag north.

IBT - zzz

Turn 11 - zzz

IBT - zzz

Turn 12 - more exploring, discover New York. worker finishes mining cow.

IBT - America is at war with Germany. America loses New York. Bismarck might get real strong, real early...

Turn 13 - Teno: jag --> settler call up Germany, they are annoyed, have 2 gold and are up BW on us. We have no trades possible.

IBT - zzz

Turn 14 - zzz

IBT - more exploring, find outskirts of Germany's real territory.

Turn 15 - zzz

IBt - signs of more fighting around new york, some german archers die to warriors, they then are avenged,

Turn 16 - zzz

IBT - zzz

Turn 17 - zzz

Turn 18 - Teno: Settler --> Granary, send settler 2N, 1 NE of Teno, 1 tile N of the northernmost fur source. Rank Distance = 4.

IBT - zzz

Turn 19 - explore and discover Berlin

IBT - Germany asks us to leave, I comply.

Turn 20 - Teno is back to size 2, growth in 5 granary in 11. We have all 3 cows roaded, 2 mined.

IBT - American scout reappears.

Turn 21 - Found Brisbane: Jag --> Worker

IBT - zzz

Turn 22 - zzz

IBT - American scout dissapears again.

Turn 23 - More exploring.

IBT - zzz

Turn 24 - More exploring ,discover Hamburg.

IBT - America found a new town, cant see it but see the borders suddenly appear.

Turn 25 - zzz

IBT - zzz

Turn 26 - Brisbane: jag --> worker

IBT - zzz

Turn 27 - exploring

IBT - zzz

Turn 29 - Teno: Granary --> Jag (in 2, growth in 2 then will be ready for settler cycle.

Turn 30 - American scout looks like being recalled to America, move past our worker at Teno. Worker starts roading bg.

And thats our opening.

We have 2 cities (Teno size 3 growth in 1, jag in 1 + Brisbane size 1 growth in 1, worker in 1)

We have 4 jags, 1 worker.

10 turns till Alpha (at -1gpt atm) Germany and America both lack alpha. Germany is up BW and The Wheel, America is up BW and Masonry.

We have 26gp in the bank.

Suggestions for Next player:

The worker about to come out of brisbane should look to get those furs hooked up, we need the other worker roading and mining around Teno for the 4-turn settler factory. If possible get another jag up to the space between Germany and America to see if they are still fighting. We'd rather they dont, Germany will win easily and we dont want 1 neighbour gettin too strong too early.

Roster

tupaclives - just played
Andronicus - UP
CommandoBob - On deck
Merlin
Open

The world as we know it

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/6650/picture776mh.jpg

I'll do up a rough dotmap shortly

here is a rough dotmap...

a very rough dotmap! :lol:

Don't laugh too hard its my first ever attemp

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/1466/picture794sg.jpg

We dont no enough about the nearby terrain to make any decisions now on city placement beyond the land you can see there, either that or its already taken up by American or German cities.

If you have Civ3Complete, you have to open Civ3Complete Edition, which is how you get in the game, and then, when u load the vanilla save, the game will turn vanilla for you, same if you were playing on [ptw] or [c3c](the game would turn to ptw or c3c). And if this doesent work, i guess I tried.:)

Woo Hoo!! :dance:

I got vanilla to run :beer:

I think the install was faulty as would not run off the exe file, so I tried on an old computer and it worked OK - it says version 1.29f - is this the latest?

Its after midnight here so I will download save and play tomorrow.

Do we want our capital as jag/ settler 4 turner - if so do we want to pay for a rax so they are vets? Require mining 2 more tiles (BG and a grass) My inclination is to build rax - due in 2, then go with jag / settler, 5 turn first time, then should be 4 turner. This will provide 1 jag per new city. If we dont go for rax we would have 2 more jags (but regs).

Research - I favour directing towards currency (best bet for monopoly and markets will help a min science approach) and maths on the way gives cats - important against aggressive AI civs

My old computer may be slow but at least I wont get kicked off it by my kids :p

You could rename Teno to Sydney Andronicus. Those Aztec names are awful.

The settler factory sounds nice, but depending on how far south the peninsula continues, we might not have much space to settle.

We could build a lot of JW's and start a war on Germany. I would hate to see them finish off the Americans this early. We need two trading partners. That would mean an early GA, and that is not good.

Currency sounds good. That would mean no Great Library though.

it says version 1.29f - is this the latest?

lurkers' comment : yes it is.

Do we want our capital as jag/ settler 4 turner - if so do we want to pay for a rax so they are vets? Require mining 2 more tiles (BG and a grass) My inclination is to build rax - due in 2, then go with jag / settler, 5 turn first time, then should be 4 turner. This will provide 1 jag per new city. If we dont go for rax we would have 2 more jags (but regs).

Research - I favour directing towards currency (best bet for monopoly and markets will help a min science approach) and maths on the way gives cats - important against aggressive AI civs

With Germany acting like, well, Germany, having vets sounds like a good idea. It will be a few turns before Germany wants to take us on; they are having too much fun beating up on the Americans.

Rax, jag, settler for Teno sounds good to me.

Is Brisbane to be a worker-farm?

From the dot map, looks like "2" would be the fastest place to put a new city. Only one grassland would need to be roaded to connect it up. "2" is also risky because it is unexplored. "1" would be safer, but harder to connect.

If this were my own game, I would settle on "2" without hesitation. It is almost connected and has two cities to act as a buffer between it and Germany. If its first build were a worker (not sure if this is wise at this level) then the first task for the worker would be to connect up the city. Which would let the current worker keep improving around the capital.

Markets sound good, but how long before we are big enough to need them? But if we get a monopoly, it may not matter once the trading is done.

OK done some quick analysis
We can either go for rax, jag, then 4turrn jag settler factory 4.5-6.5
Or can go settler in 3 then 4 turn 3-4 SF, pumping out 3 settlers to occupy the rest of our first RCP4 ring then build rax followed by 2 turn jag / worker factory at size 5. At any time this can produce a 3 turn settler -> 4 turn jag / setter combo

The advantage of the first option is safety in terms of having a vet jag for each new settler, the advantage of the second is our next 3 cities will be established appros 5-7 turns earlier and hence can start their military builds sooner giving better long term results. A short period of jag / worker 2 turn factory will get us up in workers far quicker and more efficiently than peeling workers off our developing 1st ringers

In SP mode I would take the risk and go for the latter with potentially much better returns in 50 turns time. With the current war between America and Germany they may just ignore us long enough for this to work.

I'll await comment - going to work now - will play this evening

You could rename Teno to Sydney Andronicus. Those Aztec names are awful.


Might have to go with Canberra since it is the capital :D

OK done some quick analysis
We can either go for rax, jag, then 4turrn jag settler factory 4.5-6.5
Or can go settler in 3 then 4 turn 3-4 SF, pumping out 3 settlers to occupy the rest of our first RCP4 ring then build rax followed by 2 turn jag / worker factory at size 5. At any time this can produce a 3 turn settler -> 4 turn
I like option 2 but I have a question:

What are barbarians set at?

@Andronicus - great we have 4 confirmed players! :D
Will still leave a spot open though. 5 players is ideal.

@Merlin - I was just working with comibnations (ie. aztec name, aus name, aztec name, aus name etc.)

@cities: I think that we should finish the current jag from Teno, then rax, settler then jag/settler combo. The alternative would be switch current jag to a worker, then rax settler --> worker --> jag --> settler then jag/settler combo.

@research: Finish alpha at max, then maths at surplus but fast as we can. ALso min run is 40 turns not 50

Barbarians are set at random but looks like we might have drawn none. Brisbane can't be a worker factory as it has no food bonus. However at size 3 it can do 5spt which is a jag every 2 turns. And it can slip in a worker every so often.

I would rather pop as few workers from Teno right now, getting as many settlers as quickly as we can from it, then switch it over to workers (at size 4 it can do a worker every 2 turns and stay at size 4 the whole time, at size 5 it can do a 2-turn jag/worker combo which will be great once we have taken up our (very limited) available land.

If this were my own game, I would settle on "2" without hesitation. It is almost connected and has two cities to act as a buffer between it and Germany. If its first build were a worker (not sure if this is wise at this level) then the first task for the worker would be to connect up the city. Which would let the current worker keep improving around the capital.


If the worker would finish before growth its a bad idea as you don't want to waste any shields at this very early stage.

From the dot map, looks like "2" would be the fastest place to put a new city. Only one grassland would need to be roaded to connect it up. "2" is also risky because it is unexplored. "1" would be safer, but harder to connect.

If this were my own game, I would settle on "2" without hesitation. It is almost connected and has two cities to act as a buffer between it and Germany. If its first build were a worker (not sure if this is wise at this level) then the first task for the worker would be to connect up the city. Which would let the current worker keep improving around the capital.



I'd settle "1" first. It's towards the others and we might lose that spot if we don't settle that first. "2" and "3" can be backfilled later. Let's first grab as much land from the north as possible.

That was precisely my reasoning behind making it 1 (thats supposed to be my suggested order of settling), we might not get another chance.

I'd also like to have 2 or 3 extra settlers than we have places to settle as if America and Germany are still at war then theres a good chance that they cities will be auto-razed, thus freeing up land for us to settle in.

Dang, the aggression is probably set to Most Aggressive.:eek: Poor americans.Good luck. :D

You can't modify the aggression setting in vanilla. BTW Ansar, there is a free spot in the roster, any interest in joining?

Have played 20 turns

We are still alive and at peace :D

America are 1CC :(

Report soon

Turnlog

Preturn 2550BC
Did detailed analysis of options of building settler first or jag first or rax first - bottom line settler first was far more efficient but ran risk of poor defences for next 10 turns. Decided to go for 3 setters (4 turn SF size 3-4).
Rename capital to Canberra :D

IT
Brisbane worker -> rax (I want vets please :p )

2510BC
B's worker -> forest chop (I want that rax and units soon)
lux to 10% whilst C size 4

2470BC
some exploring

IT
C settler -> settler

2430BC
lux back to 0

2390BC

IT
Germans building pyramids

2350BC

2310BC

IT
C settler -> settler

2270BC
Perth settled (No 1 pos on west coast) -> rax

2230BC

2190BC
Melbourne settled at No 2 -> rax
IT
Alphabet comes in
trade Germany Wheel (America dont have) for Alpha, 1gpt + 7gold
trade America BW + Mason for Alpha + Wheel
- we dont have horsies :(
- set research to Math @ min - 40 turns even at max

2150BC

IT
C settler -> rax (now have enough settlers for our first ring towns, noe we need to defend them
B rax -> archer (leave C to produce jags as it is only able to fit 10 shield units between settlers / workers)

2110BC

2070BC

2030BC
Adelaide settled in RCP4, but I later realised not identicle pos to Tupaclives' dotmap (I thought more usable land - after much worker activity - 1 SE, but after revealing more land I think the original site was better - sorry :blush: )

IT
C rax -> jag

1990BC

IT
furs connected
C jag -> jag - now 9spt with grassland mine due in 1 turn allowing 2 turn jag/worker factory
B archer -> archer

1950BC

IT
C jag -> worker

1910BC

IT
C worker -> jag
P rax -> archer

1870BC

IT
C jag -> worker

1830BC

IT
C worker -> worker
Iroquois build collossus

1790BC

IT
C worker -> jag

1750BC
not much happened on turns except a few exploring jags
1) south - due to explore far SW next
2) east - has returned from far lands to explore closer to home (NE)
3) northwest - currently trespasssing on American land (ooh I'm scared :rolleyes: )
lux slider needs freq adjustment
combo SF or combo worker factory need close attention


At present Canberra is set up to run 4 turn combo jag / SF. It is at the start of the cycle with 9 shields due + 2 from growth (ie will build in 1 turn not the 2 shown), then runs 10spt - 3 mCow(6), mBG(2), mGrass(1), centre tile(1) for 3 turn settler completing at size 6.5. Cannot run size 5-7 because no duct. Req increase lux when C grows. Currently 0% at size 4, then 10% for 2 turns at size5, then 20% at size 6 for 1 turn, then back to 0% (if other towns allow it) when settler built


P, M & A are not yet connected
A has worker connecting road, P needs sev roads, M has worker ready to chop forest then road (that was my plan)

Research
Math due in 30 at min - in 26 at max with deficit, but this cannot be maintained when lux slider goes up

Diplo
America down to 1 city - has no money (if gets any we could charge it when renegotiating peace). I dont think it will last long, we could safely dow on it soon and look to give us more land to colonise (I put a couple of poss 2nd ring RCP7 towns in my dotmap below encrouching / in American territory in anticipation)
Paying Germans 1gpt which may keep them off our backs a little longer, but you can be certain they will come at us once America is gone so I suggest thinking about defendible lines and strategic goals. We could buy IW from Germany for all our gpt(7) and most of our gold - 55/62. This might be worth considering if we see them coming for us. Knowing where iron is could be big - both for swords and poss for pillaging theirs.

Military
7 jags, 1 archer
strong v America, weak v Germans
We are in a position to increase this substantially

Workers - only have 5 - I would like 3 or 4 more but I think we need settlers ASAP to get the ex-American land before Germany does.
I would be reluctant to put food poor cities on to workers unless unhappiness due to size becomes an issue, they take a while to grow back and reduced size reduces their production - ideally they should all be size 5


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Tupac03_1750_dotmap.JPG

Pink dots include 2 RCP7 to south in jungleland and 2 in spre room to north, red dots require dealing with Boston first

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Tupac03_1750_BC.SAV

I'm at lunch at work; the game is at home.

Q: Which city site to settle first, NW or NE? My thoughts, just from the posted JPG, is NW to stay out of Germany's way. If we built to the NE, I would want two jags, to handle to German assualt.

Q: If America hangs on long enough (say 10 turns or so), would we want to declare war on Germany to keep America around as a trading partner?

Q: Or should we declare war on America to help our own expansion?

Q: Melbourne and Adelaide focus on military the next turnset (only build jags and archers)?

Im not Deity material.;)

Q: Which city site to settle first, NW or NE? My thoughts, just from the posted JPG, is NW to stay out of Germany's way. If we built to the NE, I would want two jags, to handle to German assualt.

I would suggest northern towns first as we need to grab the land to north whilst we still have the opportunity and secondly the southern towns will not be useful until after a lot of worker action. Our first ring needs developing first.
I would go with NW first rather than NE as we need to wait until we have enough military to hold NE - maybe within next 10 turns? Its first build should be walls - it will be the focus of German attacks at some stage.

Q: If America hangs on long enough (say 10 turns or so), would we want to declare war on Germany to keep America around as a trading partner?
I dont think America will hold on - German archers can still be seen reguarly approaching Boston so I assume they are still at war (I have just put a jag by Boston to see whats happening there) - if they come with swords its goodbye America (both got IW in last 6 or 7 turns). Ideally I would prefer to have America around as German buffer.


Q: Or should we declare war on America to help our own expansion?
I lean towards this option - if so we could attack soon with perhaps 6 archers (having settlers ready to take 2 red spots before Germans would be good)

Q: Melbourne and Adelaide focus on military the next turnset (only build jags and archers)?
All 4 1st ring towns are preparing military (either building archers or completing rax. I would prefer if we had IW and they were building swords.
Canberra I have left to build jags (every second build either with settler when we want settlers like now, or with workers which we want all the time :p ) We already have 7 jags, I dont think we want more than what Canberra provides.
Note I havnt build any spears, a couple for the front line may be in order, although archers will be more of a deterrent to German aggression


We are 30 turns from Maths - if war with Germany could be delayed until we have cats I would feel much more comfortable (although I guess diety is about not feeling comfortable :rolleyes: )

Roster
tupaclives
Andronicus - just played
CommandoBob - UP
Merlin - on deck
Open

I'm at lunch at work; the game is at home.

Q: Which city site to settle first, NW or NE? My thoughts, just from the posted JPG, is NW to stay out of Germany's way. If we built to the NE, I would want two jags, to handle to German assualt.

Settle to the north first, wherever we can really as there isnt much space. Towns can always be whipped and moved later but right now we need to occupy the space to prevent Germany founding new cities.

Q: If America hangs on long enough (say 10 turns or so), would we want to declare war on Germany to keep America around as a trading partner?

Never declare war on a deity AI if you can't deal with them. If we were to declare war on Germany I wouldnt want to be doing it just to keep America around, we would have to gain more than just the retention of a trading partner if we are to declare war on them. My preference would be not to do it until we have cats and swords, or at the very least swords.

Q: Or should we declare war on America to help our own expansion?

I think Germany will auto-raze plenty of cities freeing up a lot of space to the north without the need for us to join in.

Q: Melbourne and Adelaide focus on military the next turnset (only build jags and archers)?

Yes but get them to pop workers to keep happiness under control.
We want archers from those cities, forget jags, why would we build jags for anything other than mp duty? We don't have the cash for a mass upgrade to swords. Canberra can supply us with all the jags we need.
if we plan to go on the offensive before we get swords then 1 or 2 spears for each archer stack (stacks of 10 are preferable) would be in order.

Long term


Reach the stars. First.
Avoid other Victory Conditions.
Keep the AIs from winning.



Mid term

Survive the upcoming German attack.

Try to keep America in the game, if possible. This would be something nice, but not a have-to-do.

Contact our neighbors, wherever they are.

Leipzig looks like a good place for palace jump/Forbidden Palace later.




Short term


Connect our cities.

Play with the smart slider to learn Math faster (may not help, but need to check).

Build a new city, name unknown, on the NW dot. One jag defender is Okay here.

Build a new city, name unknown, on the NE dot. Several (well, at least two), defending units are needed. Spear, if nothing better. First build is walls, followed by rax/spear.

Build a spare settler, two would be better, to take advantage of any opening caused in the German-American war. This would be the third settler built.

Units from south head north to give the Kaiser a chance to think before he decides to attack.

Buy Iron Working from America?

Jag in the south explores the Southwest.

Jag near Frankfurt hangs around to serve as spy or explores northward?

Worker near Adelaide finishes road in 1 turn. Goes to help worker in forest next to Melbourne make forest road. Completes in 4 turns, not 6 and connects Melbourne two turns sooner. These two workers then join with the worker building the road to Perth, finishing that road and building new roads to our new NW city. Maybe send a jag to protect these workers.

When the road to NW city is finished, road to American capital? (No, would make sense if America had any luxuries to trade, but Lincoln does not.)

Worker near Brisbane finishes road in three turns. If bold, can continue road due north onto BG. If cautious, builds the road on the coast. Could use some protection.




Other Notes
These are my plans for these turns. They are not fixed and set in stone. Feel free to point out errors, offer improvements or ask questions.

Since these first turns are so critical, I may play only ten turns, post the log and save, get feedback, and then finish the turns.

Lets not worry about victory conditions right now, if you start worrying about that sort of thing then it will modifiy your game. The best way to win a specific condition is to play a regular game. We can play like any other deity game till we reach the late IA.

I would go for maths as quickly as possible at surplus, then for currency at the best surplus. Make sure to trade maths for techs, forget gold we want techs. Priority techs to get with math:

Iron Working
Writing
Map Making (if possible)

of course if America does die then we may only get IW for maths.
Also if you buy any techs from America for gpt make sure that they are actually going to survive for us to pay it in full. I have no intention of getting a rep hit, our reputation is golden.

I like your strategic analysis :goodjob:



Mid term

Survive the upcoming German attack.

Try to keep America in the game, if possible. This would be something nice, but not a have-to-do.

Contact our neighbors, wherever they are.

Leipzig looks like a good place for palace jump/Forbidden Palace later.


We should aim not just to survive but to gain vital territory and weaken Germans.
I think Americans are soon to be goners
- Germans were still sending archers into Boston's cultural zone last turn
- I sent jag in to check it out
We do want contacts ASAP, however MM is a way off yet - the overseas AI may find us before we find them
Too soon to consider site for second core - we have not fully explored the continent yet, but yes we will want a second core

Short term

Connect our cities.
:yup:

Play with the smart slider to learn Math faster (may not help, but need to check).
As mentioned at end of my log this is not currently poss - roading more tiles will help as will growing our 1st ring towns

Build a new city, name unknown, on the NW dot. One jag defender is Okay here.
Darwin, Sydney and Hobart are calling for votes ;)

Build a new city, name unknown, on the NE dot. Several (well, at least two), defending units are needed. Spear, if nothing better. First build is walls, followed by rax/spear.
I prefer not to build spears but we will need a few 2 defence units and we dont have swords yet :(

Build a spare settler, two would be better, to take advantage of any opening caused in the German-American war. This would be the third settler built.
If at war too dangerous to build in north, rather build 2 southern pinkdots.
Any northern builds must have units ready for them

Units from south head north to give the Kaiser a chance to think before he decides to attack.
Leave 1 unit in each town unless req 2 for MP with bulk of military ready at the front line - currently Brisbane and Perth, but when we have more units can extend to cover 4 RCP7 towns

Buy Iron Working from America?
Risky. I advise against any deal involving paying America 20 turns unless they are able to consolidate safely

Jag in the south explores the Southwest.
:yup:

Jag near Frankfurt hangs around to serve as spy or explores northward?
There are 2 available, so can do both

Worker near Adelaide finishes road in 1 turn. Goes to help worker in forest next to Melbourne make forest road. Completes in 4 turns, not 6 and connects Melbourne two turns sooner. These two workers then join with the worker building the road to Perth, finishing that road and building new roads to our new NW city. Maybe send a jag to protect these workers.
I prefer not to stack when unroaded as each worker has to uses 1 movement accessing the tile. This uses more worker moves than singly until tile roaded (this is just my preference - I realise others differ and sometimes I do stack where improving a specific tile ASAP is required)

When the road to NW city is finished, road to American capital? (No, would make sense if America had any luxuries to trade, but Lincoln does not.)
Hmm, this would allow our military quicker access to Boston, no :mischief:

Worker near Brisbane finishes road in three turns. If bold, can continue road due north onto BG. If cautious, builds the road on the coast. Could use some protection.
My plan was to road to NE pink dot to speed settler and entourage's arrival
NE pink dot is potentially a strong 2nd ring city and additionally speeds irrigation towards our core. Strategically a strong target - defend it well!

Hope you find my feedback not too nitpicking ;)

Also if you buy any techs from America for gpt make sure that they are actually going to survive for us to pay it in full. I have no intention of getting a rep hit, our reputation is golden.

If we make a tech/gpt deal with the Yanks and they die, we take a rep hit? :confused: That seems backwards.

Hope you find my feedback not too nitpicking ;)
Not at all. At this level, the nits must be picked!

(Back story: In SGOTM9, I missed a milestone because I could not follow the high level discussion between the other players. There were 5 pages of discussion between the last turnset and mine. In all the discussion I missed some things and the Forbidden Palace was not built on time. After that, we all used this format to inform each other of what we were planning to do on our turnsets, and allowed time for feedback, corrections/comments and pointers/questions. It has been a big help to me, so I used it here.)

If we make a tech/gpt deal with the Yanks and they die, we take a rep hit? :confused: That seems backwards.


Yes and a major PIA too. However we need to be aware of it.

End of Previous Turnset Stats:

Science: Mathematics, 30 turns
Treasury: 62 gold, +7 gpt, 9.1.0
Cities:

Canberra (4) grows in 1, vJag in 2
Brisbane (2) grows in 4, vArcher in 3
Perth (2) grows in 17, vArcher in 4
Melbourne (1) grows in 3, rax in 2
Adelaide (1) grows in 3, rax in 2

Military:

workers 005, 000 in production
archers 001, 002 in production
jags 007, 001 in production

Allowed units 20; current units 13


America loses an archer to German forces.
Lincoln is concerned about our Jag Observer outside Boston. I tell him it will leave.
Canberra vJag -> Settler, 3 turns.

[I] 01 1725 BC
Trading
Treasury: 70 gold, 9 gpt
IW from Lincoln: 70 gold and 6 gpt (190 gold).
Germany has learned Writing.
IW from Germany: 70 gold and 7 gpt (210 gold).
Will not trade HBR or Writing.

Other
Focus on the road to Perth.
Canberra about to riot; happy slider to 10%.


American spear defeats German eArcher.
Our observer moves automatically.

Melbourne rax -> vJag (MP duty).

[I] 02 1700 BC
Trading
Treasury: 79 gold, 8 gpt
IW from Lincoln: 79 gold and 6 gpt (199 gold).
IW from Germany: 79 gold and 7 gpt (219 gold).

Other



Bismarck wants 22 gold to ignore us. We pay and hide.

Brisbane vArcher -> vArcher, 10 turns.
Adelaide rax -> vJag, 4 turns (MP duty).

[I] 03 1675 BC
Trading
Treasury: 65 gold, 7 gpt
IW from Lincoln: 65 gold and 7 gpt (205 gold).
IW from Germany: will not trade.

Other
Melbourne about to riot; happy slider to 50%; now at -1 gpt until Melbourne is connected.




Canberra settler -> vJag, 2 turns (need to get to 1 turn)
Perth vArcher -> vArcher, 7 turns.
Melbourne switch vJag to worker, 3 turns.

[I] 04 1650 BC
Trading
Treasury: 64 gold, -1 gpt
IW from Lincoln: will not trade.
IW from Germany: will not trade.

Other
Settler and Jag NE.



Bismarck is touchy about our exploring Jag. Promise to move him.

[I] 05 1625 BC
Trading
Treasury: 63 gold, -1 gpt
IW from Lincoln: will not trade.
IW from Germany: will not trade.

Other
Perth is connected.
Begin road to NW city site.



Canberra vJag -> settler, 3 turns.


[I] 06 1600 BC
Trading
Treasury: 62 gold, 0 gpt
IW from Lincoln: will not trade.
IW from Germany: will not trade.
Germany has learned Mysticism (may have done so last turn).

Other



Melbourne worker -> vArcher, 20 turns.
Adelaide vJag -> vArcher, 7 turns.

Melbourne connected, happy slider back to 10%.

[I] 07 1575 BC
Trading
Treasury: 62 gold, 9 gpt
IW from Lincoln: 62 gold, 7 gpt (202 gold).
IW from Germany: 62 gold, 7 gpt (202 gold).

Other
Found Aztecs Anonymous on the NE Pink dot, grows in 10, walls in 10.



Germans heading back to Germany from Boston.

[I] 08 1550 BC
Trading
Treasury: 71 gold, 9 gpt
IW from Lincoln: 71 gold, 6 gpt (191 gold).
IW from Germany: 71 gold, 7 gpt (211 gold).

Other
Wake vJag in Perth, send north to check on America. Boston still standing, must have signed peace treaty with Germany. Or else Germany has problems on their eastern border.


[IBT]
Germans declare war on us!
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/tupac03/1550BC_GermanDOWTrimmed.jpg

vJag kills German warrior and we enter our Golden Age!
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/tupac03/1550BC_GoldenAgeTrimmed.jpg

German horse kills the vJag.
Aztecs Anonymous captured and razed.
German warrior attacks and promotes an archer.

Canberra settler -> vArcher, 2 turns.
Brisbane vArcher -> vArcher, 3 turns.
Save for discussion.




Science: Mathematics, 21 turns
Treasury: 84 gold, +17 gpt, 8.1.1
Cities:

Canberra (4) grows in 3, vArcher in 2
Brisbane (3) grows in 15, vArcher in 3
Perth (2) grows in 8, vArcher in 1
Melbourne (1) grows in 6, vArcher in 9
Adelaide (2) grows in 14, vArcher in 3

Military:

settlers 001, 000 in production
workers 006, 000 in production
archers 004, 005 in production
jags 009, 000 in production


Allowed units 20; current units 20

Australian-Aztec Empire 1525 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/tupac03/1525BC_AztecMapTrimmedDotted.jpg

And the save is >>Here<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Tupac03_1525_BC.SAV).

The good news is that all our cities are connected.

The bad news is that we built a city and then lost it to Germany. They will take a rep hit, as their units were inside our territory when they declared war. Which does not help us now.

I had planned to play 10 turns and post the game, but this serves as a better stopping point.

I knew that Germany would not like the new city on the NE dot but I did not expect their response to be so quick. I thought we had time to build the walls. Now (only now!) do I remember that I planned to send two units with that settler. War still would have come, but we would not have lost a city. My bad. Blast. :mad:

War Plans
War at Deity is a new thing for me, especially this early in the game.

We have a settler just completed in Canberra that we need to use. Where do we put the city? On the NW dot (3 turns to move, builds city on turn 4) or back to the NE dot that was razed (2 turns to move, builds city on turn 3)?

All cities are making vArchers. Canberra and Brisbane could make a vSpear, if needed. Canberra can make it faster (2 turns vs. 3 turns) but it will take one turn to get to Brisbane, so the elapsed time is the same.

We should be able to get Iron Working from America, since it seems that we are the focus of German attention. The net price should be around 200 gold.

I have a worker making a forest road to connect more furs. I had hoped to trade these furs to Germany and buy us some time. Not now.

Ack blast. I hate wars before I have iron (unless of course you need to war to get iron like in "'By Jupiter' Rome on Deity"). Losing a city is very bad, aside from the lost settler, it will make it difficult to avoid having to pay Bismarck for peace.
When I played through from Andronicus' save I managed to avoid war. Sending two jags prevented it for me. Oh well, live and learn and we arnt exactly in a hole.

Don't have time to check the save but if we don't have land for a settler (don't found Pink dot straight away, or the NE dot until the german city is gone) then have canberra pop workers till we have 2 per city.

Also looking at the map we have a RCP problem already.
Adelaide.
It is at RCP 4.5, the rest of the first core is RCP 4.0

That means Adelaide is our 2nd ring, so any further cities beyond 4.5 will be 3rd ring!

Critique of your log:

You moved the lux slider to 50% to avoid Melbourne rioting. As you knew it would only be a few turns before Melbourne was connected why didn't you switch it to work a forest earlier to slow growth. If you had done that, why not employ a tax collector? How much gold was lost by increasing the lux slider that much? I know growth is important but if its one small, unproductive city then I prefer to just employ a tax collector for the 2 turns or so.
I'd like another 3 or 4 workers for the number of cities we have as we arnt industrious.

Dissapointing about the GA. Absolutely despise having one this early. Its a shame to waste it. My suggestions tactically would be raze the German city next to our NE dot asap, a stack of 5 archers should probably be able to do it, then sue for peace provided we dont have to pay.
We could have prevented war with germany by buying IW from them on credit but oh well, cant be helped now.

Also looking at your dotmap you have varying RCP between 7.0 and 7.5
I know it sounds small but I have noticed from some recent deity game just how much of a difference it can make to try and get a consistent RCP for the first two cores.

I have to go to the theatre now so I'll have a look at the save when I get back.

Also looking at the map we have a RCP problem already.
Adelaide.
It is at RCP 4.5, the rest of the first core is RCP 4.0

That means Adelaide is our 2nd ring, so any further cities beyond 4.5 will be 3rd ring!



Actually 4.5 and 4.0 are treated the same in the corruption model, all 0.5's are rounded down, so we do have a RCP4 and RCP7 ring

@ CommandoBob
Hindsight is 20/20, but I am surprised that given all the discussion that Germany was likely to attack and putting all non mp troops to frontline, that the most "in your face' town towards Germany was founded with escort of only one. Did you see a stack next to the city? Any encroachment with multiple units should sound alarm bells and a deal to secure IW for gpt would at least mean we gained free IW from the war.
Anyway enough ranting, I wont be able to look at the save today, we need to plan carefully to reinforce Brisbane and defen off initial German wave until we have enough archers to mount an offensive. Personally I would go with 8 or 10 particuarly as they will likely be cut back by swords.

I would agree with puchasing IW off Americans - if we have iron and can connect it it would help the war effort no end
The spare settler needs to go south - northern cities are too vulnerable, we will need a couple of settlers when we are ready to go get German town(s)

edit - how far are we off cats?

They will take a rep hit, as their units were inside our territory when they declared war.

The AI never takes rep hits unless is nuking, the other AI are still the same towards that AI, in this case, the AI dont care that Germany attacked you.

Well I did get a look at the save after all.

Trading
We have a lot more gpt avail now we are in GA
We dont req current 10% lux, it can go to 0%
We can buy IW from America for 9gpt+12g, as Abe is very weak compared to us I'm sure we could get it cheaper by renegotiating peace treaty (click active deals so peace treaty comes up, click peace treaty and will be asked if want to renegotiate, say yes and put IW on Abes's side of the table and see what we have to give him)
Maths could be researched in 15 turns at 70% (down from 21) - I think its worth it
War with Germany - give us cats and swords :D

Settler factory operation
[IBT]
Canberra settler -> vJag, 2 turns (need to get to 1 turn)

Canberra is not doing 5fpt :( .
The key to the 4.5-6.5 4 turn combo Jag-SF and the size 5 2 turn jag-worker factory is 5fpt so grows every 2 turns. On growth it will get 2 shields when governor asigns new citizen to most productive tile (forest furs). This then needs to be switched to maintain the 5fpt
Canberra is currently size 4.0, it should not have gone to that size - this is why you were unable to build 1 turn jag - at size 4.5 it gets the extra shields from growth
If Canberra had grown 5fpt it would have built the fist jag and settler as you did but the settler would have been built at size 6.5 bringing Canberra back to 4.5 and the the next jag would have been built in 1 because of growth. I suspect you did not switch to 5fpt so the settler popped at size 6.0 going back to 4.0 resulting in insufficient shields for jag (centre tile, 3mCow, mBG gives 9 shields)

Workers
We need mining of grass to get GA benefit. Despotic GA is bad enough, but doubly so when most of our improved tiles are already 2spt, and a number of worked tiles are 0spt

Settlers
Current settler should go south to either of the RCP 7 (or 7.5 ;) ) sites
Canberrra can continue to crank out 2 turn jag / workers - we need to get our 1st ring cities productive fast for the war.

Military tactics
Brisbane needs walls if doesnt already have - this is the likely focus of German attacks. All avail military should go there (those not used for mp).
I think we need a 2 defence unit to protect our archers so a few spears may be required if we cant build swords soon
Could we try deflecting German attacks against a spear or 2 fortified on the mountain 2 SW of New York? That tile is accessible from Brisane in 1 move thanks to our road.

@Andronicus - if it rounds off then can you explain why a RCP 4.5, in my recent deity game, was doing 4 shields losing 1 to corruption, while a RCP 4.0 was doing 4 shields losing 0 to corruption? Does it round up, rather than down?

Agree with all your comments other than that.

@ CommandoBob
Hindsight is 20/20, but I am surprised that given all the discussion that Germany was likely to attack and putting all non mp troops to frontline, that the most "in your face' town towards Germany was founded with escort of only one. Did you see a stack next to the city? Any encroachment with multiple units should sound alarm bells and a deal to secure IW for gpt would at least mean we gained free IW from the war.
I agree with you. It was dumb.

Lesson learned, the hard way.

Settler factory operation


Canberra is not doing 5fpt :( .
The key to the 4.5-6.5 4 turn combo Jag-SF and the size 5 2 turn jag-worker factory is 5fpt so grows every 2 turns. On growth it will get 2 shields when governor asigns new citizen to most productive tile (forest furs). This then needs to be switched to maintain the 5fpt
Canberra is currently size 4.0, it should not have gone to that size - this is why you were unable to build 1 turn jag - at size 4.5 it gets the extra shields from growth
If Canberra had grown 5fpt it would have built the fist jag and settler as you did but the settler would have been built at size 6.5 bringing Canberra back to 4.5 and the the next jag would have been built in 1 because of growth. I suspect you did not switch to 5fpt so the settler popped at size 6.0 going back to 4.0 resulting in insufficient shields for jag (centre tile, 3mCow, mBG gives 9 shields)

Replayed from the start; found the problem.

In 1725 BC, after Canberra grew to five, the new citizen worked the roaded plain with fur (1fpt, 4fpt total) instead of an unroaded grassland (2fpt) or swapping the roaded grassland tile with Brisbane (2fpt and commerce).

@Andronicus - if it rounds off then can you explain why a RCP 4.5, in my recent deity game, was doing 4 shields losing 1 to corruption, while a RCP 4.0 was doing 4 shields losing 0 to corruption? Does it round up, rather than down?




2 town position factors influence corruption - rank and distance.
RCP allows multiple towns to share the rank corruption of lowest rank - in our case all our 1st ring cities rank the same whether they are distance 4.0 or 4.5.
Distance however will result in minor differences between 4.0 and 4.5. You are correct that this could make a difference to whether the 4th shield produced is waste or not.

If you want to minimise corruption you could just place all towns in ICS pattern fo minimal distance corruption. The point of rings is to take advantage of reduced rank corruption.

Ah, finally tracked down the reference I was looking for
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=19922&page=6
see Qitai's post - no 104

@ CommandoBob

Suggestion

Much depends on whether we have iron or not
Suggest trading America for it with renegotiation of peace tied in, then we will know more about whether we have iron, if so how long to hook it up, if not can we settle / fight for it as well as how much earlier we can hasten maths for cats
Once we know these answers planning will be more obvious :scan:

Suggestion

Much depends on whether we have iron or not

Not had a chance to get back to the game so far this weekend. Will get IW and peace with America and then post a screen shot of our world. Discussion and plans can follow.

Edit: Right now I am in the tech booth at church, so it will be a few hours before I can do this.

A few hours has stretched into many hours due to after church activities and family discussions.

Bought IW from America for 84 gold (all) and 5 gpt.

We have iron southeast of Melbourne on a mountain.

Germany has many sources of iron and America has one. None appear connected, at least not now.

The save is >>here<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Tupac03_1525_BC_IW.SAV).

Our Iron Supply 1525 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/tupac03/1525BC_AztecMapIWTrimmedDotted.jpg

Without looking at the save my $0.02 would be, start roading to it NOW. Switch Melbourne to a Temple, whip it.
We can get culture expansion 13 turns, and I'd rather not plop a settler there to claim it as the city would have to be abandoned most likely anyway (although we could make it a fishing village...)

Either go the temple route which shoudl give us culture expansion around the same time we get the iron (might even take longer to road then get culture expansion). In the meantime we need things for the NOW so that means archers rather than jags.

The alternative would be to plop a city on the hill next to it to get it in our culture right now, make that city a fishing village although that makes our next RCP 6.5 rather than 7 which I'd prefer.

My preference is for the temple but its your turnset, so its up to you.

I'll put in my 2 cents as well ;)

Put Canberra on jag / worker 2 turm factory (@ 5fpt) and take those workers straight to hill SE of Melbourne - as soon as roaded - use 1 worker for colony - much quicker than roading iron mountain and no need to build temple

Dont forget to fortify a jag on it. I doubt Germans have MM yet, but may not be far away.

In the meantime we need things for the NOW so that means archers rather than jags.
We should go archers at all 1st ring cities (perhaps 2 spears to absorb attacks), if we want archers from Canberra with the worker factory it will work if build archer at size 4.0-5.0, then worker 5.0-5.5, back to 4.5, then 2nd worker 4.5-5.0 and back to starting point of 4.0 - again need to maintain 5fpt - results in 4 turn archer / 2 worker factory

@ CommandoBob
Had a squiz at the save
2 comments
1) City management :Canberra still working forest furs -> only 4fpt and wont grow every 2 turns. Perth is wasting shields using furs - can use roaded grass this turn. Adelaide can use the BG it shares with Canberra when Canberra not using (size 4)
2) Diplomacy : Have not renegatiated peace treaty with America. Think of it as like the demands for money we have put up with when the AI is stronger. In our case we are much stronger, so renegotiating peace should give us some of Abe's 84g possibly allowing us to speed maths research. 70% science gives us maths in 15 (down from current 21) at -5gpt, so would need 75g - unlikely but worth getting what we can.

Just realised we are at our unit limit so we will need the money to support our military otherwise we will lose them. So keep the min research.
Need to build those 2 southern cities as soon as done workers to connect iron so we can supprot bigger military.

I think that establishing a Jag protected colony on the iron is better than whipping a temple in Melbourne just to get the culture expansion. A colony would allow Melbourne to keep making its vArcher.

tupaclives, what are your thoughts on this?

@Andronicus: the city management and diplomacy issues will be taken care of. All that has been done on the 1525 BC turn is the buying of IW from the Americans.

It sounds like a sound idea, go for it. That would save 9 worker turns.

Do you guys still have a spot open? What's the difficulty level and settings?

Canberra can build one turn Jags. I'd rather have two of them than one archer. Jags can retreat...

Agree

Archers are best attackers at present for attacking a stack (soon to be outdated by swords).
Jags allow attack and retreat, esp valuable for knocking off any pesky retreating German horses.
I think we currently have 9 jags many of whicjh are reg and only useful for mp duty.
Once iron is hooked up we will be unable to get more 2 move units until we can aquire horses.
All up I vote for jags from Canberra until iron connected - interspersed with workers or settlers of course.

Do you guys still have a spot open? What's the difficulty level and settings?

Yes there is a spot left open, difficulty is deity at vanilla 1.29f on continents going for space race.

If you have a working copy of vanilla, what difficulty level do you usually play at?

******************** After discussion. ***************************
Buy IW from America for 84 gold (all) and 5 gpt (184 gold total).
We have iron south east of Melbourne, in a mountain.

******************** Save for discussion. *************************
Renegotiate peace with America.
Choices are 20 gold or 1 gpt. Take the 1 gpt and hope they build something smart with their money.


09 1525 BC
Trading

Other
Move settler and vJag south to Melbourne, heading to the pink hill.
Move worker and wounded archer south.
Move vJag next to New York.
Move rJag next to Heidelberg.
Wake worker in the Furry Forest near Canberra, will help make road to iron.
Wake worker mining near Adelaide, will help make road to iron.



Archer retreats vJag at New York, Jag runs to the hills. vJag is redlined, being chased by rHorse (1/3), rArcher (2/3) and rArcher (3/3).
Perth, vArcher -> vArcher, 4 turns.

[I] 10 1500 BC
Trading
Other
vArcher from Perth towards Brisbane.
eArcher heals in Brisbane.
rJag near Heidelberg slips by unnoticed and will scout the east side of Germany.
Move wounded vJag NW across river and fortify.
Switch Canberra to vJag (1 turn); will follow with Settler for second south pink city.




Redlined rHorse kills our redlined vJag when attacking across a river.
Two rArchers are following the rJag on the east side of Germany.

Canberra vJag -> settler, 3 turns.

[I] 11 1475BC
Trading
Other
Miskeyed the rJag, went SE instead of E, and is adjacent to two archers.
Send a vJag to scout on the road north of Brisbane. One archer south of New York.
Begin the road to the iron. Two workers come to help.
vJag and settler in place for new city.
Swap the grassland from Melbourne with the roaded forest of Adelaide, since A has shields to waste.




Archer redlines and retreats our rJag eastward.

Brisbane vArcher -> vArcher, 3 turns.
Adelaide vArcher -> vArcher, 7 turns.

[I] 12 1450BC
Trading
Other
Both workers help the road to iron. Next turn, one stops and will move onto the mountain to become the colony.
Found Thats-A-Knife 2S of Melbourne, grows in 20, rax in 10.
vJag returns to Brisbane, archer soon to follow.
wounded rJag keeps exploring, SE and S, heading to the mountains.
Allowed 24 units, have 22.



Single German archer now 2N of Brisbane.

[I] 13 1425BC
Trading
Other
Move exploring Jag into mountain. Sees no German units nearby.
Wake one worker and move onto iron.
Increase science to 60%, Math in 15, -1gpt (at 70%, Math in 13, -4gpt, with 43 in treasury).
Switch Brisbane vArcher -> walls, 1 turn.




Huh? 2 Horses join the archer and all head north, away from Brisbane!

Canberra settler -> vJag (for colony)
Brisbane walls -> vSpear, 3 turns.
Perth vArcher -> vArcher, 4 turns.

The Pyramids are built in Thebes (Egypt).
The Oracle is built in Salamanca (Iroquois).

[I] 14 1400BC
Trading
Other
vJag scouts north of Brisbane. German units on the mountain SW of New York, 4 rArchers and 1 rHorse.
Build Iron Colony. Road will be completed this turn.
Let wounded rJag heal on mountain.
New vArcher from Perth heads to Brisbane.


[IBT]
Australian-Aztec Empire 1400 BC http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/tupac03/1400BC_AztecMapTrimmed.jpg

And the save is >>Here<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Tupac03_1400_BC.SAV).

The plan is to finish the last six turns tonight.

In six turns should have 10 vArchers and maybe an vSpear or two ready to attack Germany.

Canberra is making a vJag now for the Iron Colony. Looks like we need at one more Jag for MP duty in Perth, since that vJag I have used as a scout around Brisbane.

After that, is it too early for third settler? I was considering trying to rebuild the NE pink dot when we marched into German territory.

(We are three turns away from founding our second southern city 2S of Adelaide.)

My thoughts are for Canberra to be used as 2 turn jag / worker factory for perhaps 4-6 workers (excess can always be used to get food poor towns up to speed).
At that stage it depends on how the war is going.
If we are being inundated with German units we wont want to be settling to the north.
If however we are massing enough forces in Brisbane to push forward, then I would agree with switching to settler factory.
I suspect we will have to wait until we have produced a few swords, unless Germans are gassed from fighting Americans.

Silly me - I answered your last post but hadnt read the post above :p

6 archers and a spear should be sufficient to establish NE pink dot again.
I doubt it will be enough to get New York (gems), I suspect this will have to wait for swords. I tend to be conservative and probably wait too long to build up in SP games.

Yeah, I own vanilla 1.29, but I don't think I'd do very well on deity...

Agree with Andronicus on workers, also I think 6 archers and a spear would be enough to take down New York however we might want a little more caution and a little less Wei Chi ambition at this point so a stack closer to 10 might be in order. I agree we will be able to hold the NE dot if we can get a spear and half a dozen archers up there.

@Cody the genius: what difficulty do you usually play at?

I could probably win by myself on monarch, but usually play on regent...

Maybe if you guys help me, I could try... I'm not really sure. I don't wanna screw up your game.

I believe CommandoBob usually plays at Monarch if the rest of the team is happy for you to participate then you can, you might find it easier to move up to deity by doing what CommandoBob is a breaking up your turnset so that the other players can annalyse it and give you effective, practical advice. I'd like you to see if you can ge a completed victory on Monarch in single player however.

************************ save for discussion ********************************

Iron is connected.
2 archers move north of Brisbane.
4 German archers from the mountain SW of New York move towards Brisbane.
German horse from the same mountain joins the 2 archers 1N of Brisbane.

Canberra vJag -> vSword, 3 turns.

[I] 15 1375BC
Iron connected, move workers to connect Thats-A-Knife.
vJag from Melbourne to Iron Colony.
vJag from Canberra to Melbourne.
Change archer builds to swords.
Canberra - 3 turns; Perth, Brisbane and Melbourne - 4 turns; Adelaide - 7 turns.
Wake rJag in Brisbane; send to Perth to swap for archer.
Let exploring jag heal some more.
Consider attacking the Germans next to Brisbane. Eight units in Brisbane, 7 archers and 1 Jag.
We defend at 1.75, they attack with 2.
They defend at 1.10, we attack with 2. We attack, but do not want to leave unit exposed to counter attack.

Defense of Brisbane
vArcher vs. rArcher, redline rArcher but die. (0 of 1)
vArcher vs. rArcher, we win, taking 2 HP. (1 of 2)
vArcher vs. rHorse, redline and retreat the horse, taking no damage. (2 of 3)
This leaves the redlined rArcher still standing, but do not attack. Would lose attacking unit on the IBT from the four archers 2N of Brisbane.



German wounded move away.
5 rArchers north of Brisbane.
[I] 16 1350BC
Exploring Jag has healed. Move SE, mountain top to mountain top, north of Munich.
Set Canberra to grow in 2, not 3.
Switch Brisbane to vSpear (after the fighting), due in 1.

Defense of Brisbane, Round 2
vArcher vs. rArcher, we win, taking 2 HP (3 of 4).
vArcher vs. rArcher, we win, taking 2 HP (4 of 5).
vArcher vs. rArcher, we lose, promoting the German, now at 3/4, (4 of 6).
vArcher vs. rArcher, we lose, promoting a 2nd German, now at 2/4, (4 of 7).

Two units left that are not wounded, vJag and eArcher. Three German units that can attack, 2 which are wounded. Five units in Brisbane.
Stop attacking, will let our greater numbers be part of our defense.
Fortify vJag and wounded vArcher (wounded last turn).



German rArcher kills eArcher in Brisbane.
No other attacks.
Wounded Germans move away.

Brisbane vSpear -> vSpear, 3 turns.


[I] 17 1325BC
Found Tarzana on SW pink dot, 2S of Adelaide. Grows in 20 turns, rax in 20 turns.
Exploring Jag SE again.
Fortify the new spear. Allow the wounded to heal.
Six units in Brisbane: 1 vJag, 1 vSpear, 4 vArchers.
Increase science to 70%, learn Math in 9 not 11 turns, -3 gpt.
Allowed 28 units, we have 20.



Wounded archer moves away.
2 German rHorse ride up to Brisbane.

Canberra vSword -> worker, 1 turn.

[I] 18 1300BC
Fortify the archers in Brisbane. All are healed.
Exploring Jag sees rSpear guarding Munich.
Workers begin to mine the BG NE of Adelaide.



German horses head past Brisbane to Perth.

Canberra worker -> vSword, 3 turns.
Perth vSword -> walls, 2 turns.
Melbourne vSword -> vSword, 6 turns.

[I] 19 1275BC
Send vJag from Brisbane to Perth.
Fortify vSword in Perth.
Perth has 3 fortified units to face 2 horses.



German horse attack vSword in Perth and promotes it to Elite.
Second German horse attacks vJag and kills it, but is redlined in the process.

Brisbane vSpear -> vSword, 5 turns.
Adelaide vSword -> vSword, 6 turns.

[I] 20 1250BC
vSpear from Brisbane to Perth.
new swords to Perth.


[IBT]

Current Turnset Stats:
Science: Mathematics, 6 turns
Treasury: 40 gold, 3 gpt, 2.7.1
Cities:

Canberra (5) grows in 1, vSword in 2
Brisbane (3) zero growth, vSword in 5
Perth (3) grows in 16, walls in 1
Melbourne (2) zero growth, vSword in 5
Adelaide (3) grows in 17, vSword in 6
Thats-A-Knife (1) grows in 12, rax in 2
Tarzana (1) grows in 17, rax in 17

Military:

workers 006, 000 in production
archers 004, 000 in production
spears 002, 000 in production
swords 004, 004 in production
jags 009, 000 in production


Allowed units 28; current units 25
Northern Australian-Aztec Empire 1250 BC Annotated http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/tupac03/1250BC_AztecMapNorthTrimmedDotted.jpg

And the save is >>Here<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Tupac03_1250_BC.SAV).

For my first time at Deity, it was a pretty wild ride for 20 turns. I did not help things any by building Aztecs Anonymous and defending it with only one unit. I deserved to have that city captured.

The German onslaught, once it began, was less fearsome that I thought. Had Germany kept all of its units together and attacked Brisbane at one time, things would have been much worse. As it was, attacking with three units and then five allowed us strike before they did. Lots of units, but mostly regular. But it did put a halt to our offensive plans.

One reason we could withstand the German attack was due to the work that tupaclives and Andronicus did in setting up the empire. On my own, I would have been history.

We have iron connected and veteran swords in the field of combat. Brisbane has walls and a veteran spear. Perth is building walls and has a spear in route to it, along with some swords to beef up the defense of Perth.

We have weathered the first German assault, which was directed at Brisbane. The second assault is in progress and is focusing on Perth. Once we stop that, I think Brisbane will again be the focus of German attention. By then, some more southern swords should be on their way north.

Canberra is our most productive city and it looks like it will be a 4 turn worker/sword factory for a while. If we want a settler, may need to get it from another city. It would depend on how many units Germany throws at us.

As far as I can tell, Germany does not have any iron connected.

There are three workers in the jungle south of Adelaide. They can complete the road to Tarzana in three turns (9WT).

There are two workers building a mine in the hills SE of Melbourne.

It crossed my mind to try to talk to Germany about peace, but I did not. Didn’t think we had killed enough Germans for them to be reasonable.

Felt strange about giving the cities Australian names when playing with so many Australians. And did not want the default Aztec names. So I got a little creative.

Good work CommandoBob. Considering that it was your first deity turnset, Excellent work!

I wouldn't send the swords to Perth, Brisbane will be the target for attacks I suspect (from Germany anyway) so 3 spears would be able to absorb anything Germany could throw (fortifies behind walls and defending at 3.5) for now and with 2-3 archers could counter large stacks very effictively. I would send the swords to brisbane, a stack of 5 swords plus a spear to cover them could very probably take New York. Once New York is gone (captured or razed) then I would go about refounding the NE dot.

Just my $0.02

Merlin will know what to do without me trying to look intelligent over here
:crazyeye: :lol:

Roster

tupaclives - On deck
Andronicus
CommandoBob - just played
Merlin - UP
Cody the Genius - decision pending

@ CommandoBob - that was a dfifficult turnset and you did well getting out the mire as you did

One comment though
Why did you not attack the redlined archer with the jag in Brisbane?
Our few 2 move units are quite valuable until such time as we can get horses. Using them to knock off redlined 1 defence units is good use of them.


1375BC
Consider attacking the Germans next to Brisbane. Eight units in Brisbane, 7 archers and 1 Jag.
We defend at 1.75, they attack with 2.
They defend at 1.10, we attack with 2. We attack, but do not want to leave unit exposed to counter attack.

Defense of Brisbane
vArcher vs. rArcher, redline rArcher but die. (0 of 1)
vArcher vs. rArcher, we win, taking 2 HP. (1 of 2)
vArcher vs. rHorse, redline and retreat the horse, taking no damage. (2 of 3)
This leaves the redlined rArcher still standing, but do not attack. Would lose attacking unit on the IBT from the four archers 2N of Brisbane.

Merlin will know what to do without me trying to look intelligent over here



Thanks for your kind words. I got it. I am at work now and will play in about six hours. Do I play 20 or 10 turns?

20 turns in the first round, once we get to my 2nd turnset we play 10 turns each

@ CommandoBob - that was a dfifficult turnset and you did well getting out the mire as you did

One comment though
Why did you not attack the redlined archer with the jag in Brisbane?
Our few 2 move units are quite valuable until such time as we can get horses. Using them to knock off redlined 1 defence units is good use of them.
Two reasons.
One, I thought that the wounded archer would stay in place when the other archers moved in. I did not expect it to move away. I was saving it to go leader hunting with our elite archer. (75% of why no attack).
Two, I wasn't sure the vJag would win; attack 1 vs defend 1.1. (25% of why no attack)

Hmm... I'm not really sure. I suppose I'll try it if you can inform me on what I should do. Maybe I'll only do 5 turns or something :)

Two reasons.
One, I thought that the wounded archer would stay in place when the other archers moved in. I did not expect it to move away. I was saving it to go leader hunting with our elite archer. (75% of why no attack).
Two, I wasn't sure the vJag would win; attack 1 vs defend 1.1. (25% of why no attack)

Ah but the odds are not 1:1.1 if 4/4jag attacks 1/3 archer, and even if archer was 3/3 the odds would be better than your calculation because jag has chance to retreat if redlined
AI will always move wounded units to safety if it can

At higher levels the AI can outproduce us because its units cost less shields and it has more early cities to produce these units. To defeat them in war we have to kill efficiently and knocking off redlined units will pay off most times

...because jag has chance to retreat if redlined
I forgot about the retreat option. This is my first time to play with the 'Tecs.

Hmm... I'm not really sure. I suppose I'll try it if you can inform me on what I should do. Maybe I'll only do 5 turns or something
You'll do fine.

The biggest challenge in an SG, is not the level of the AI. The biggest challenge is knowing when to stop playing and to ask for help and advice. Once you learn that, and get comfortable doing that, the game becomes much easier to play.

And if you are not sure of how to play the turns, do what I do; document everything. I play with Notepad open and document almost everything I do. This lets the other players see and discuss what is done. It is not easy to read but it is complete. As the game progresses I will include less detail in the posted log, but for now, on the opening moves, it is best for me to be as complete as possible.

This works for me. It may not work for you.

Okay, I'll try it! But as Yoda says, "Do, or do not. There is no try."

I'll let you guys do a couple more turns first though, so I can see what I'm dealing with here.

I am having to be placed on indefinate skip. My civ computer wont even start up let alone play civ. Could be a false alarm... but then maybe not, we'll have to wait and see. For now place me on skip.

Sorry to hear that tupac.

I couldn't play yesterday. Will play today. But I'm now at work and will play squash after work, so it will take some time...

Pre-flight check: Wake an elite sword and attack redlined horse. Win, but no leader. Wake archers to attack the german archers. Lose one, kill three. Change Perth from Walls to settler. Some MM. (4-1)

IBT: lose one archer to horse. Kill one archer defending (5-2).

Turn 1 (1225BC): Kill horse with eArcher, no leader. Lose sword attacking regular archer on grassland. (6-3)

IBT: zzz

Turn 2 (1200BC): Canberra sword->settler, Thats-A-Knife barracks->spear, AGAIN LOSE A SWORD ATTACKING ARCHER ON GRASS!! another sword kills it. Started to chop some forests. (7-4)

IBT: kill one archer defending (8-4)

Turn 3 (1175BC): Collect our attack force to Brisbane.

IBT: german horse kills our fortified spear behind Brisbane walls! Another horse kills an elite sword. Not nice rng (8-6)

Turn 4 (1150BC): Perth settler->spear, Kill the two horses of doom with eArcher and eSword, no leaders. Road to Tarzana finished, one worker to clear jungle. Math next turn, cannot lower science. (10-6)

IBT: zzzz

Turn 5 (1125BC): Math->Currency, Canberra settler->sword, Brisbane sword->spear, Melbourne sword->cat. Sell math to Americans for Mysticism and 148 gold.

IBT: zzzz

Turn 6 (1100BC): Adelaide sword->worker, troops healed at Brisbane, next turn start journey to New York.

IBT: zzz

Turn 7 (1075BC): three swords and archer to mountain near NY

IBT: lot of germans closing Brisbane...

Turn 8 (1050BC): Canberra sword->sword, Brisbane spear->spear, Adelaide worker->cat. Attackers now next to NY, will attack next turn.

IBT: retreat horse attacking Brisbane, GOLDEN AGE ENDS

Turn 9 (1025BC): attack of NY, vSword kills spear, eSword kills spear, NY autorazed. Kill redlined horse. Kill archer*3, settler ready to settle. Peace with Germany, get Writing for math, WM and 86 gold. They have Philo, CoL and MM. (16-6)

IBT: Germans turn to Boston, Americans won't last long.

Turn 10(1000BC): Melbourne cat->temple, Egyptians finished the great lighthouse. Settle Cairns -> walls. Lux to 20%.

IBT: Forest chops finish

Turn 11 (975BC): Canberra sword->temple, forest chop will help, Perth spear->worker. Sell writing to Abe for 16 gold. Get the FP message.

IBT: zzzz

Turn 12 (950BC): Settle Katherine->worker.

IBT: zzzz

Turn 13 (925BC): Canberra temple->worker, Brisbane spear->spear, Adelaide cat->cat. Germans on our territory, so buy Philo for 19gpt, WM and 53 gold. Ask them to leave->they declare. Capture three german workers.

IBT: Lose archer to horse. Germans turn to Katherine (16-7)

Turn 14 (900BC): Kill one archer (17-7)

IBT: lose one captured worker. Lose a fortified sword in forest to archer attacking over river!! Kill five troops defending, lose sword in Katherine. (22-9)

Turn 15 (875BC): Perth worker->spear, Melbourne temple->spear. OUR IRON DISAPPEARS!! Kill a horse. (23-9)

IBT: Kill three, lose a sword. (26-9)

Turn 16 (850BC): Thats-A-Knife spear->jag. Kill archer with eSword, no leader.

IBT: Kill two archers defending. (28-9)

Turn 17 (825BC): Canberra sword->spear, Tarzana barracks->jag. Kill an archer. (29-9)

IBT: zzz

turn 18 (800BC): Brisbane spear->jag, Adelaide cat->cat. Kill a horse (30-9)

IBT: Elite spear in Katherine loses to horse without making a scratch, elite sword loses too, we lose Katherine...

Turn 19 (775BC): Canberra to settler.

IBT: zzzz

Turn 20 (750BC): Cairns walls->barracks. See a French city at the end of German lands.


These were really lousy 20 turns. I had bad rng and lost a lot of fights that I should have won. It's going to be quite a struggle from now on. Losing our iron really doesn't help.

We are having my comuter repaird asap and should be ready today later, unless i post otherwise consider me UP.

Lets see what I can do.

IBT: lose one archer to horse. Kill one archer defending (5-2).

I'm not sure how to read this number. 5 fights and 2 losses or 5 wins and 2 losses? (I can guess, but I would rather be told.)

I'll be in Chicago until Sunday... I'll talk to you guys later though :)

These were really lousy 20 turns. I had bad rng and lost a lot of fights that I should have won. It's going to be quite a struggle from now on. Losing our iron really doesn't help.

Man those rng rolls really suck. :vomit:
There is always going to be run of bad luck with battle outcomes, but to lose our iron source as well :cry:

A few questions
I cant see from map where Katherine was - was it grabbing gems?
Are Germans still at war with America?
Do we have ongoing deals with Americans - if so how long for?
How many cats do we have?

We need to regain iron and only source appears to be Boston.:devil:

I'm not sure how to read this number. 5 fights and 2 losses or 5 wins and 2 losses? (I can guess, but I would rather be told.)

5-2 would usually relect battle count of 5 wins, 2 losses
I note you expressed yours differently - I hadnt seen it the way you did before

5-2 would usually relect battle count of 5 wins, 2 losses
I note you expressed yours differently - I hadnt seen it the way you did before
I show mine as 'x of y' so that I don't get confused. If it is spelled out like that then I do not have to mentally decode it. Plus, no addition required.

(And, yes, I am over 30.)

.

(And, yes, I am over 30.)

:lol: Ah to be that young
I hadnt used a computer age 30 :old:

Roster
tupaclives - UP
Andronicus - ON DECK
CommandoBob - saw us into first German war
Merlin - battled Germans and rng
cody_the_genius - ? joining at end of second round

I'm at work, so I dont have the game at hand, but I'll try to answer your questions.

I cant see from map where Katherine was - was it grabbing gems?

No, I had Katherine on the river south of the game. Not a good place. The obvious city place is on the hill on the river south of gems. Next city should be there. If I had Katherine there, the extra defence from the hill, might have saved it... This really was bad city placement from me...

Are Germans still at war with America?

Not sure without an embassy, but think so...

Do we have ongoing deals with Americans - if so how long for?

I'd say no. They paid math in cash

How many cats do we have?

3 I'd say.. Not sure.

I made the second war to get philo cheap. We have enough troops in Cairns to feel safe. We should make peace ASAP, contact the French, build the city I mentioned above, get MM and iron.

I'll probably have to be skipped sorry, they wont be able to get the computer fixed for at least a week, luckily they were able to retrieve my assignments that are due so at least i wont fail anything. Give me a day tops to see if i can get civ onto another computer and patched up, i might be able to play then but thats a definate 'wait and see' I'm not sure if any of the other computers in the hosue are up to handling civ.

Nope, dads laptop can handle it after all.

Got it!

Pre-Turn:

Swap Melbourne to Archer (was spear). Move one of the two spears guarding workers into

IBT - Our spear covering a worker succesfully retreats a German horse. German archers move into the vicinity of Cairns.

Turn 1 - France has a city on our continent! Way over in German held territory though, very difficult to get to and make contact. Its worth a try though... Pick off the redlined horse, yellowline a spear with cats. (1-0)

IBT - kill a horse on defence with a spear (2-0).

Turn 2 - Kill 2 archers with swords (4-0) things are looking bad, Germany wont talk.

IBT - foolishly left two workers exposed but rather than attacking them the horse opts to attack the spear, which it kills (4-1).

Turn 3 - pick off 3 archers for no loss (7-1) and Germany will talk! Not only that they will take straight up peace! Make peace collecting 20 gold. Now we need to think about a new source of iron. And grabbign those gems. We have a settler ready to head up there, I'll cover him with 2 spears and a jag. Then we may have to wipe out America. We need iron more than they do.

IBT - Germans move away, I think they must be at peace with America.

Turn 4 - just moving guys around. Nothing major.

IBT - America demands 20 gold, i tell them to shove it. They comply.

Turn 5 - zzzz

IBT - zzzz

Turn 6 - We are losing a lot of money, have to drop science to 40%

IBT - zzzz

Turn 7 - even with 40% sci we are still at -3gpt.

IBT - zzzz

Turn 8 - arrive at settling destination.

IBT - Egyptians complete Hanging Gardens.

Turn 9 - Found Rubyvale on the hill by the river that takes in the gems. On culture expansion it can claim the fish as well.

IBT - zzz

Turn 10 - Found Townsville, the two new towns have dropped our support costs enough to up the science for a while. OUr swords arrive in Perth ready to take on america, backed up by 3 cats and 3 archers. Hopefully that will be enough to take Boston. OUr jag is 1 turn from making contact with France. Once we get our hands on iron we need to build as many swords as we can and then try and seize control of all the land west of Cairns and Rubyvale. Those two cities provide a nice little two-city choke and once Rubyvale has walls and a few archers and cats we should be able to hold the line at those two cities.

Good luck Andronicus!

Remember 10 turns from here on in.

Roster

tupaclives - just played
Andronicus - Up
CommandoBob - On deck
Merlin
CodytheGenius

I dont see the save :confused:

Problem solved ;)

Got it

edit - a bit premature
I got the save but it will not load in vanilla - says not a valid save - all previous saves open OK

I tried to examine this save with CivAssisst II, which caused CivAssisst II to blow up. I have saved the error message data dump, but it may not be needed.

Tried MapStat, but it just showed blanks, no date or file name displayed.

Best guess: somehow the save file got corrupted.

@tupaclives: can you open the save file on your machine?

Ack, had the same problem on my other machine so its either an account problem or something wrong with the transfer of mac saves to pcs. I have to .zip any file before uploading, i thought that as I was on different machine i wouldnt need to.

Oh well here it is again, this one should work

Just some quick thoughts / discussion points.

There are two sources of iron close by, near Boston and Frankfurt.

The Boston Iron requires a DOW; the Frankfurt Iron does not but does require that we road two grassland tiles and put a colony on the iron in the mountain, adjacent to German borders.

Boston Iron seems better because:

America is a OCC.
Boston is size 1.
Boston is closer than Frankfurt.
Boston can be replaced by two cities on Ring 2.
We will not need to watch our backs when we fight with Germany again.
We do not risk losing this iron due to German culutral expansion.


If we have only one iron to use, Boston's iron seems better. If we can get both, then we should.

If we do try to get both, this seems to be a good order for worker priorites:

DOW on Boston and connect that iron once we can.
Connect the gems to help with happiness.
Connect to the Frankfurt Iron.


The details would need to be worked out, but with enough vJags we could wear down Boston in a turn or two.

12 yo son's b'day today so slight delay B4 I play - should be able within 48 hours though

cant really kick him off the computer can I?:mischief:

12 yo son's b'day today so slight delay B4 I play - should be able within 48 hours though

cant really kick him off the computer can I?:mischief:
Well, no, of course not.

But you could show him how to start his very own settler factory. :crazyeye:

But you could show him how to start his very own settler factory. :crazyeye:
He already knows, but prefers not to play turn based games

He already knows, but prefers not to play turn based games
Sounds like my 20 year old son. He prefers the twitchy, first person shooters. Civ4 he liked, but has only played the demo. But real, thinking games, well, no.

Summary
Americans destroyed
Are at war with Germany again - have razed 2 of their cities - they have 1 left W of Rubyvale
Met France - they were not as advanced as Germans allowing a 2 for 1 trade. Joan occupies a medium sized land mass to south of Germany.
I dont think either has met anyone else, so getting MM and finding OS civs would be big help
Settled 2 new cities and final 2nd ring city ready to be settled as early as next turn (Boston requires abandonment first - see discussion next post ;) )
Have HBR and lit, 5 turns from currency - no libs built yet - I think we need to concentrate on military first until Bismark is under control. Trading for MM and meeting other civs should allow us to keep up in science.

Turnlog
Pre-turn 550BC
Canberra: switch Worker -> archer (at size 4 it cannot build 10 shield unit in 1 turn as only 9spt, but can build 20 shield unit in 2 turns because of shields on growth)
Townsville: switch walls -> cat (we shouldnt have to defend here)
Currency due in 13
MM speeds rax in Cairnes to next turn

IT
Furious Bismark tells our jag to move - we do
Brisbane: spear -> archer
Adelaide: cat -> cat
Cairnes: rax -> worker

530BC
dow America
move troops adjacent Boston

IT
Canberra: archer -> settler
Melbourne: archer -> archer

510BC
@ Boston
cats strike 1/4
vSw loses rSp -> promotes it3/4 :( (0-1)
vSw d 3/4Sp (1-1)
eSw d 2/3Sp (2-1) -> capture (decide to hold for now as helps our unit support)
Americans destroyed
Make contact with France - up lit + MM
Trade Germany HBR (Boston has horses) + 4g for WM + 19gpt
Trade France Lit + WM for WM, HBR, 2gpt + 44g
We are now broke > disband rJag who contacted France. Plan to sell WM to France and Germany each turn for 1 gold each

IT
Perth: archer -> archer
TAK: jag -> worker - sell rax in TAK (it can produce cats and has poor production which does not justify spending 1gpt on rax IMO - sorry if this upsets anyone).
German worker is roading our gem mountain :D

490BC
MM to save a few gold, whilst building troops ready for Germany so can provoke them to dow and cancel our expensive gpt deals

470BC
Brisbane switched to settler - need to fill in the gaps quick, also more cities will help as unit costs are crippling us

IT
Canberra: settler -> jag
Adelaide: cat -> worker
Cairnes: worker -> sword
Iron and horses now connected :devil:

450BC
Start roading towards Washington

430BC
Serious cash shortage even on 1 scientist, 0 science, 10 lux
- treasury 9gold, -6gpt :(
Dial up Bismark after temporarily switching all tiles poss to coast :mischief:
Buy 22g for 2gpt (for now ;) ) -> 33g @ -8gpt after selling WMs

IT
Germans settle New Berlin 3 W of Boston (where I was planning settling in 2 turns :mad: )
Adelaide: worker -> sword

410BC
whip a sword in Tarzana (only making 1spt - at least this way can produce sword every 11 turns)
Darwin settled on eastern red dot @ RCP7 (2W of Cairnes) -> walls
now have 27g @ -4gpt after selling WMs

IT
Tarzana: sword -> sword
Egypt completes GLib

390BC
Germans will no longer pay for our WM - this will not do :p
Buy 27g from Bismark for 2gpt (now owe him 23gpt in addition to 2gpt to Joan)
Politely ask Bismark to take his grubby worker off our gem mountain (oh well - I had thought of waiting but it would have been expensive). Predictably he dows -> war happiness means no longer require lux spending and cancels our gpt payments :D . Now have 21gpt with currency due in 7 at min. Who says war doesnt pay?
vSw d rArch -> promotes elite (3-1)
move units adjacent Washington and New Berlin

IT
@ Rubyvale vSp retreats vHM
Canberra: settler -> settler (will bring back to size 4.0 and can then build 30 shield unit followed by workers)
Melbourne: Sword -> HM
TAK: worker -> cat
Cairnes: worker -> sword
Rubyvale: walls -> cat

370BC
Switch Perth and Adelaide to HM - I want a few quick units
@ New Berlin
cat fails
eSw d rSp -> autorazed (4-1)
settler moved into place to settle next turn
@ Washington
3/4 cats hit -> reveal 2/3 and 1/3 swords
eSw d 2/3 Sp (5-1)
vArch d 1/3 Sp -> elite (6-1) -> autorazed
@ Rubyvale
eJag d 1/4HM (7-1)
German SoD (well mini one with Sp, HM, 5Arch :rolleyes: ) moves on Boston - currently 3 tiles away
vArch d Sp in SoD (8-1)

IT
eArch loses HM (8-2)
Perth HM -> HM
Townsville cat -> cat

350BC
German mini-Sod splits - no longer a SoD :confused: - HM + Arch fortify on forest, 4 arch move to mountain
Attack HM/arch pair - 4 cats all successful
vArch d 2/4HM (9-2)
3/5Sw d 1/3Arch (10-2) - currently 3/5 Sw is vulnerable on forest, but would rather 2 spears remain fortified to protect 4 cats from the stack of 4 archers
Broome settled on ruins of New Berlin -> worker

Current situation

Economy
87g making 19gpt
0% lux thanks to war happiness
10% science -> currency in 5

Diplomacy
Bismark wont speak (we should aim to raze Bonn first before peace unless our circumstances are dire) Given we have razed 2 towns I would hope to get something for peace - a tech that Joan lacks would be huge - eg CoL (but maybe wishful thinking)
Joan will trade us MM for most of our gold and gpt - I think we should wait for currency
When we can afford it I suggest embassy with Joan - just checked - its only 52 gold - I vote we do it straight away

Military
We are still weak v Germans so war must be maintained carefully keeping all advantage we can. Those units stranded west of Rubyvale should be able to be picked off, Rubyvale and Cairnes may require additional support if we start getting losses there (Rubyvale on hill with walls, Cairnes has walls and rax)
Main threat is units slipping through, esp HM who can quickly get in range of poorly defended towns (eg Darwin attacking from mountain 2NE).
Current military consists of 6 archers - dont build more, 8 spears - should absorb attacks in our frontier towns, 4 swords - need more, 1 HM ditto, 12 jags (I recommend upgrading a few vets as finances allow as we now have HM for our 2 move units - regs can be kept as MP and elites for leader fishing)
Also have 14 workers and 1 settler

Towns
Canberra - can ave 10spt from size 4 Provided dont build 10 shield unit at that size. I recommend keeping 5fpt so that every 4 turns we can produce a settler or 2 workers. 30 shield units can be built here from size 4 increasing in the 3 turns to size 5.5, then workers back down. Settlers can be built in 3 turns at size 4.5 ( if build at size 4.0 Canberra will reduce to size 3.5 after 3 turn settler and be unable to maintain 10spt), then build another 30 shield unit. Settler can also be built at size 5.0.
1st rings
All except Brisbane producing 6spt -> 30 shield unit in 5 turns. Brisbane req extra pop - suggest joining a worker. (my fault for taking off a settler at size 5)
2nd rings
southern 2 very unproductive - require a lot of worker improvement of jungle
Cairnes now 3spt and 4fpt is our best 2nd ring town
Darwin and Townsville (and red dot awaiting settlement in place of Boston) require lots of irrigation - this is taking place
3rd ring
Broome is RCP 10, I dont know whether there is sufficient gain maintaining a 3rd ring but have placed 2 pink dot possibilities at RCP10. I prefer moving the western one 1NE in addition to moving the most westerly pale blue dot 1NE (the pale blue dots ignore RCP, as does Rubyvale)
I think we want to settle 6 more cities before Joan can get there and before Bismark resettles after the war. We currently have 1 settler and another due in 2 turns (I did MM after the screenie and switched Canberra to 5fpt after its last growth)

One question I have is how do you most efficiently abandon a town - can you build a settler (or is it a worker) with insufficient population such that building it abandons the city? Otherwise do we wait 2 turns and build a worker in Boston, immediately abandoning it, then building next town 1S in its place on RCP7. If we do the later we could hire a scientist in Boston those 2 turns negating the need to contribute 10% economy to science for 2 turns.

Only read the key parts of the report and am yet to check the save but from the sounds of it, it was a very productive turnset :goodjob:

As for the abandoning a city, it can be a settler or worker but if a settler the best way starting from scratch is wait for 10 shields in the box (and size 2) and then whip it, it will finish next turn and if you set the city to 0 growth you can abandon it when you get the settler.

Will have a look at the save and post again

Wow things look in great shape! We might fancy a palace jump later in the game to a more central location (darwin is good in terms of surrounding land though its RCP might be a bit tight), nothing really to add for now though. I'd suggest a spear on the gem mountain if possible, to stop germans slipping by moving along their, but thats not a priority.

Good job Andronicus, things look good, real good! :thumbsup:

Very nice turns Andronicus!

Very tight city placement in your dotmap. I'ts CxC in many places. I'm not a fan of that, I'd rather go with CxxC... We need productive cities with big income for our space quest.

Oh i agree about that but right now i dont think its a big issue, this game will go to the modern era dont forget, thus there will be time to work out precise placements. Hopefully we can have control of our continent before the IA, though thats thinking a little too far ahead right now.

Berlin looks a nice site for a second core :mischief:

Swords and cats with a few horse as back up can wreck havoc particuarly prior to pikes.
Havnt seen any German swords yet - they will make things a little harder

I think we should aim to get as much German land as poss prior to feudalism with short wars to get a few towns, then peace (preferably with tech thrown in or at reduced rate), and then egg Bismark on to further war as soon as we have consolidated (and arranged large gpt deal with him). We do need to keep filling in the land.

As soon as Germany under control we will need to get our infrastructure under construction with libs, courts, markets - hopefully timed for whenn we becomne republic

I suggest we try obtaining CoL from Bismark next peace treaty then make min run on republic (if we put some beakers into CoL first it should bring the price down or alternatively include currency in trade). Keep watch for 2 for 1 trade opportunities with Joan who doesnt apear to have traded with Bismark yet

Darn, just revisited first dot map and realised Darwin's site was planned for 1NE (still RCP7) resulting in less crowding. This would have allowed western pink dot to also go 1NE (and still be RCP10). :blush:

As for the abandoning a city, it can be a settler or worker but if a settler the best way starting from scratch is wait for 10 shields in the box (and size 2) and then whip it, it will finish next turn and if you set the city to 0 growth you can abandon it when you get the settler.


If I understand you right, this means Boston which is size 2 and has 8 shields in box could whip settler in 2 turns returning to size 1 then get option to get settler and abandon. What do you mean set to 0 growth - is this after whipping and before hitting enter at end of turn?

Actually can get 2spt by using cow + forest so could whip next turn

edit
Roster

tupaclives
Andronicus - just played
CommandoBob - UP
Merlin - on deck
CodytheGenius

If I understand you right, this means Boston which is size 2 and has 8 shields in box could whip settler in 2 turns returning to size 1 then get option to get settler and abandon. What do you mean set to 0 growth - is this after whipping and before hitting enter at end of turn?


Yep thats precisely what I mean, and yes it doesnt have to be as soon as you click to whip, but it has to be prior to the end of the turn in which the whipping took place.

Alright, everyone, I'm back and I'm ready to play, I suppose!

Long Term Goals
Get to space first.

Mid Term Goals
Play Whack-A-Mole with Germany. Whack a city (capture or raze), whack another city and negotiate peace. Prod, pester and annoy Bismarck until he declares war on us and he breaks the peace, not us. Repeat as needed.

Be nice to have France gnaw at Germany from her side of Aztralia.

Short Term Goals

We are at war with Germany.

If the German archers near Boston stay in the mountains on this IBT, what if we

move the units in Boston out of the city onto the hill NE of the city
move the eSword and the catapult stack to the roaded grassland 2N of Boston
wait for the German archers to leave the mountain and move onto the roaded horse
and kill them all on open ground.

Germany does not have iron connected (yet).
Looks like Rubyvale will be the focus of German attention, with Cairns getting the overflow. Both have 2 vSpears defending behind walls, and the will be facing vHorses (deadliest), rHorses, rArchers and rSpears. Would be nice to sneak in a vSword into the defense to add some counter attack punch.
Let us hope the German horses attack Rubyvale and do not go exploring our interior.
Need to clear out Bonn to reduce Germany to a one-axis threat (no pun intended). Due to the distances, it might be best to build towards Bonn. As we build towards Bonn, we also road to our new city, so once Bonn is gonn, those units can head east to the real German battle front.
Need to consider a city on the hill NE and E of Rubyvale, close to Nuremburg. This city would need to be heavily defended (so of course I won’t build it! :D ) since it will be the focal point of German attacks for a long time. A walled city on a hill, with three or four vSpears, a couple of cats and the odd Archer or Sword, would be the final resting place of many fine German units.

Build an embassy with the French Lady.
Townsville is working the cow, which needs roaded and then mined or irrigated, not sure which.
Be nice to get the gems connected. Nice, but not really worth the risk in wartime, considering where the gems are located (N of Rubyvale and on the German border.)
We have citizens working 5 unimproved tiles; need to examine and see why.
We are on a 10% science run to Currency.
Boston is on Ring 3 from Canberra and is 69% corrupt. It is rank 10. Broome and Rubyvale are even further from Canberra and have worse corruption. We can try to keep a Ring 3, but it may not be worth the effort.
Need to build Swords and Horsies to fight the Krauties.
Set Boston to zero growth, build settler, abandon city and rebuild one tile south of present location. Takes 22 turns. Could keep zero growth and build two slave workers instead, would take 12 turns.
Settle the pink dots (RCP of 10) north of Boston.

Just with regards Boston, you can get the settler as soon as it gets 10 shields in the box (so 2 more turns at 1spt, or 1 turn if you do it at 2spt). Just whip the city once it gets 10 in the box and the settler will finish next turn with the option to abandon, the whip will be transferred to the nearest city but that wont be any sort of serious issue.

If the German archers near Boston stay in the mountains on this IBT
I suspect they will attack our wounded eSw - we could put a spear to protect it from 1 of the 2 protecting the cats, but then run risk of losing cats if they attack the remaining spear

Germany does not have iron connected (yet).
When they do things will be more difficult, but cats will allow us to attack them before they attack us

Looks like Rubyvale will be the focus of German attention
On last IT German HM passed between Rubyvale and Cairnes - I think they are going for our lightly defended interior (eg Darwin)

Need to clear out Bonn to reduce Germany to a one-axis threat (no pun intended). Due to the distances, it might be best to build towards Bonn. As we build towards Bonn, we also road to our new city, so once Bonn is gonn, those units can head east to the real German battle front. Yes Bonn is first priority (other than dealing with German units in our territory)
On rethinking things I believe my W pink dot and W pale blue dots should both be moved 1NE. This makes W pale blue dot 3N of horses and only requires 1 more tile to be roaded then leads towards Boston

Need to consider a city on the hill NE and E of Rubyvale, close to Nuremburg. This city would need to be heavily defended (so of course I won’t build it! :D ) since it will be the focal point of German attacks for a long time. A walled city on a hill, with three or four vSpears, a couple of cats and the odd Archer or Sword, would be the final resting place of many fine German units.
Might be a bit premature planning an attack to the east - I was thinking raze Bonn, get techs and or money in peace deal, then fill in empty spaces whilst preparing for assault east in next phase of war
Build an embassy with the French Lady.
:yup:
Townsville is working the cow, which needs roaded and then mined or irrigated, not sure which.
Irrigate - will lose extra shield in despot if mine and food boni are valuable

Be nice to get the gems connected. Nice, but not really worth the risk in wartime, considering where the gems are located (N of Rubyvale and on the German border.)
May not be a bad move if have spare worker and spear - just dont leave Rubyvale too thinly defended

We have citizens working 5 unimproved tiles; need to examine and see why.
Priorty IMO is irrigating plains tiles for our northern towns and clearing jungle to our south
We are on a 10% science run to Currency
Nothing to be gained increasing rate.

[Boston is on Ring 3 from Canberra and is 69% corrupt. It is rank 10. Broome and Rubyvale are even further from Canberra and have worse corruption.
These towns will be much more productive after FP and courts. Currently I wouldnt waste too much worker moves or infrastructure builds on them.

We can try to keep a Ring 3, but it may not be worth the effort.
Yea thats my feeling too where optimal placement is slightly further away

Need to build Swords and Horsies to fight the Krauties
I would consider upgrading any vet Jags - elites leave for leader opportunities, and regs for MP duty. We have very few swords and this would give a quick boost
Set Boston to zero growth, build settler, abandon city and rebuild one tile south of present location. Takes 22 turns. Could keep zero growth and build two slave workers instead, would take 12 turns.
I like tupaclives' plan, esp with shifting Boston to 2spt immediately allowing whipping next turn
Settle the pink dots (RCP of 10) north of Boston.
Not sure if others will agree, but I like your idea of speeding towards Boston, so I suggest settle

1) W pale blue dot - but 1NE of where I put on dotmap (send settler currently on red dot there could arrive in 3 turns depending on what German archer stack does)
2) Red dot once Boston abandoned
3) W pink dot - also 1NE of dot map placement
4) E pink dot

Boston has to be size 2 to produce a settler.

Boston IS size 2 :)

If the German archers near Boston stay in the mountains on this IBT
I suspect they will attack our wounded eSw - we could put a spear to protect it from 1 of the 2 protecting the cats, but then run risk of losing cats if they attack the remaining spear

We can grow more elite units; this unit will have to take its chances.


Looks like Rubyvale will be the focus of German attention
On last IT German HM passed between Rubyvale and Cairnes - I think they are going for our lightly defended interior (eg Darwin)

Send the swords south of Boston to Darwin?
Once the horses are gone, we could use an undefended Darwin as bait for German foot soldiers.
Should we put any units on Mount Darwin?


Townsville is working the cow, which needs roaded and then mined or irrigated, not sure which.
Irrigate - will lose extra shield in despot if mine and food boni are valuable

Irrigation it shall be.


Need to build Swords and Horsies to fight the Krauties
I would consider upgrading any vet Jags - elites leave for leader opportunities, and regs for MP duty. We have very few swords and this would give a quick boost

Will be done.


Not sure if others will agree, but I like your idea of speeding towards Boston, so I suggest settle

1) W pale blue dot - but 1NE of where I put on dot map (send settler currently on red dot there could arrive in 3 turns depending on what German archer stack does)
2) Red dot once Boston abandoned
3) W pink dot - also 1NE of dot map placement
4) E pink dot

Recreated the dot map to make sure we were talking about the same dots. Used blocks to indicate the new city sites. The order of the founding is on the left side of the picture.
Boston North 0350 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/tupac03/Tupac03_03550BC_BostonNorthTrimmedD.jpg

Boston IS size 2 :)
Not if you whip it.

Not if you whip it.
So if we whip Boston to try to make a settler, what happens?

It seems that we could lose the population and make an expensive worker.

It also seems possible that the game would not allow the whipping to happen.

I do not do a lot of whipping, so the theory and how-to are not things I can talk about with reasonable certainty. :confused:

Boston only has to be size 2 in order to BE whipped, as it is being abandoned the creation of the settler will give you the options 'zoom to city, delay production, abandon city' we select abandon city and the settler is produced in place of the city. Trust me, it works. I've done it many times. If you dont believe it works then look at 'Sid Vicious and the Magnificent 7+1' on the subject of moving Lahore early in the game. Believe me, if it is under size 3 and not growing then it will be abandoned and the settler created. It only has to be size 2 in order to receive the whip.

So if we whip Boston to try to make a settler, what happens?

It seems that we could lose the population and make an expensive worker.

It also seems possible that the game would not allow the whipping to happen.

I do not do a lot of whipping, so the theory and how-to are not things I can talk about with reasonable certainty. :confused:

Just did a simple test :scan:
Started random game - built city until size 2 with 10 shields in box -> whipped settler -> size 1, hired a clown to prevent growth, press enter and hey presto - given option of abandoning town and get a settler

so it does work :crazyeye:
(I admit I was sceptical because it doesnt feel right to abandon a town which is size 1 and get a settler when it would take 2 pop to build)

Send the swords south of Boston to Darwin?
Once the horses are gone, we could use an undefended Darwin as bait for German foot soldiers.
Should we put any units on Mount Darwin?
Seems reasonable, might want a few swords near Cairnes. Once a force is assembled (prob just 3 swords to add to the cats) they can go get Bonn.
If we dont occupy the mount Germany will, from there horses can attack Darwin.



Recreated the dot map to make sure we were talking about the same dots. Used blocks to indicate the new city sites. The order of the founding is on the left side of the picture.

I agree with this other than resettle new Boston site as soon as settler produced, making red dot the number 2 (will probably settle before current settler reaches pale blue square

hey presto - given option of abandoning town and get a settler

so it does work :crazyeye:

But you never doubted me right? ;)

But you never doubted me right? ;)

Ummm....:mischief:

(I admit I was sceptical because it doesnt feel right to abandon a town which is size 1 and get a settler when it would take 2 pop to build)
That was my reasoning as well. I guess that's what comes from assuming something relating to something I don't remember the last time I've done.

About the FP. We should build it ASAP. In many games I have made the mistake of waiting for the perfect place for it, and then getting too little value for it. The sooner we build it, the more benefits we'll get.

I'd suggest putting the FP to Darwin. It's in a central position to our cities and we can move the palace to some (conquered)German city later on to get a better second core. Canberra is on a quite small peninsula to get a proper core around it.

If we get a leader from the war with Germany, I'd rush the FP with it. If no better wonder is available. Otherwise we could make peace soon, connect the gems, fill the lands according to the dotmap and build new workers to make the lands productive.

Dont have save in front of me, but IIRC Darwin is only pulling 2spt at present, poss 3. Is it worth waiting for CoL for court first then more efficient build of FP?
My preferred site for FP if we get a leader is in Berlin, or that could be new palace site and FP in in Darwin would still seem reasonable
There are no wonders available to us so only other use is to build an army.

About the FP...I'd suggest putting the FP to Darwin.
Does the FP in Vanilla have the same odd corruption quirk as it does in PTW? That is, if a city is closer to the FP than the capital, it gets Rank 1 corruption. (I think I got that right). Which means that RCP is not a factor for cities around the FP. RCP still is a factor for the capital, but it is not a great factor for the FP.

Does the FP in Vanilla have the same odd corruption quirk as it does in PTW? That is, if a city is closer to the FP than the capital, it gets Rank 1 corruption. (I think I got that right). Which means that RCP is not a factor for cities around the FP. RCP still is a factor for the capital, but it is not a great factor for the FP.

I'm not sure you've got it right.
It is the same as in PTW according to Qitai's war accademy article, but if I understand correctly it should be expressed as any city closer to the FP than than 1st ring towns to palace (ie RCP4 in our case) will have rank 1 corruption. :crazyeye:
This becomes more powerful if 1st ring were RCP7 for example and is an obvious exploit if there are no towns near the palace (eg nearest 20 tiles away). Wide RCP spacing around palace and close spacing (ignoring RCP) around FP maximises corruption benefit.
I hope that's close to the mark

Yep Andronicus is right. However I believe I mentioned in hoiuse rules that the rank corruption exploit (ie. stickign the palace in the middle of nowhere to maximise FP effictivness) is prohibited.

Disclaimer
These turns took so long to play because my son was in from Kentucky for Spring Break. He did not bring his PC, so we had one computer for the three of us all week long, in addition to family events. I misjudged the time to play.

I have only played five turns. I plan to play again this evening, rather late. If I am not able to play by the morning, I will ask for a skip on the remaining turns.

The Game
End of Previous Turnset Stats:

Science: Currency, 5 turns
Treasury: 87 gold, +20 gpt, 9.1.0
Cities:

Canberra (5) grows in 2, settler in 2
Brisbane (3) grows in 3, vSword in 3
Boston (2) grows in 7, settler in 22 (city to be abandoned)
Perth (4) grows in 10, vHorse in 5
Melbourne (4) grows in 18, vHorse in 4
Adelaide (4) grows in 7, vHorse in 2
Thats-A-Knife (1) grows in 19, catapult in 19
Tarzana (1) grows in 6, vSword in 28
Cairns (3) grows in 4, vSword in 9
Rubyvale (2) grows in 10, catapult in 19
Townsville (2) grows in 10, catapult in 10
Darwin (1) grows in 7, walls in 7
Bromme (1) grows in 10, worker in 10

Military:

settlers 001, 002 in production
workers 014, 001 in production
archers 006, 000 in production
spears 008, 000 in production
swords 004, 003 in production
horses 001, 003 in production
catapult 008, 003 in production
jags 012, 000 in production

Build List:

settler [2] (Canberra and Boston)
vSword [3] (Brisbane, Tarzana and Cairns)
vHorse [3] (Perth, Melbourne and Adelaide)
catapult [3] (Thats-A-Knife, Rubyvale and Townsville)
walls [1] (Darwin)
worker [1] (Broome)




Allowed units 52; current units 54


Wake vJag in TAK; send to Melbourne to upgrade (no rax in TAK)
Wake vJag in Melbourne; send to Brisbane (unit shuffle).
Embassy with France, 52 gold.

Hit enter
eSword dies and promotes the attacking archer to elite. (0 of 1)
Remaining units move towards Boston.
German units move west and appear to be bypassing Rubyvale and Cairns.
Both cities have more units than attackers, so not worried just yet.

Battle Map 330 BC (Start of Turn)
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/tupac03/0330BC_NorthBattleMapTrimmed.jpg

[I] 01 0330 BC
Trading
France has Map Making. Wants WM, 16 gold (all) and 15 gpt (of 21 gpt).
This deal means no more upgrades of jags to swords for eight turns.
Pass.
Other
Upgrade vJag in Brisbane, 40 gold.
2 vSwords move into Darwin.
Move catapult stack and defenders SW onto road 2N of Boston.
Move catapult into Boston from the south.
Wake worker SE of Boston, move away from Germans.
Catapult in Rubyvale hurts a horse.



Just promoted German eArcher heads towards Bonn.
2 German archers die attacking Boston. (2 of 3)
We lose 1 archer in Darwin, both attacking horses wounded, 3/4 and 1/4. (3 of 5)
No attacks on Rubyvale or Cairns.
Rubyvale wounded horse heads east.

Canberra settler -> settler, 4 turns.
Adelaide vHorse -> vHorse, 5 turns.

[I] 02 0310 BC
Trading
Other
Catapult in Rubyvale hurts a horse.
Catapult in Cairns misses.
Perth is cranky, buy a clown. Horse in 4, not 3.

Battle of Darwin
vSword vs. vHorse 3/4, vHorse retreats at 1/4. (4 of 6)
vSword vs. vHorse 1/4, vSword wins flawlessly and promotes (5 of 7).
vHorse from Darwin moves N.
vHorse vs. vHorse 1/4, green beats blue, taking one hit point. (6 of 8)
One 3/4 vSword in Darwin.

Battle of Boston
One catapult hits the fortified rArcher in the forest, other one misses.
vArcher vs. rArcher 2/3, green beats blue, taking one hit point. (7 of 9)
After battle, whip Boston to make settler; set at zero growth.

Move settler 3N to join catapult stack. City site in 1N from here.
Send new vHorse from Adelaide towards Brisbane.
Move eSword from Boston to be 1SW of Darwin.

Darwin is bait for the Germans. For now. The new cities that inch toward Bonn will soon be the focus of German attention, allowing us to pick off units on the way (I hope).



German boat land a horse near Broome, currently undefended.
No German attacks.
General German movement westward, slipping past Rubyvale.

Brisbane, vSword -> vSword, 5 turns.
Boston abandoned.

[I] 03 0290 BC
Trading
France will sell Map Making for 57 gold (all) and 13 gpt, about 320 gold total.
Nope.

Other
Whipped settler founds New Boston; grows in 7, jag in 10.
We lost the iron when we abandoned Boston, New Boston does not reach to the iron.
Send archer and Jag from old Boston to Broome.
Rubyvale catapult misses.
Move settler, catapults and defenders 1N to city site.

Battle of Darwin, Round 2
vSword 3/4 (in Darwin) vs. rSpear, vSword is redlined but wins. (8 of 10)
eSword vs. rArcher, eSword wins flawlessly, but does not promote. (9 of 11)

vHorse moves back to Darwin.
Wake vSpear in Townsville to protect worker NW of town from German horse.
Move an eSword and the new vHorse towards New Boston, heading north from there.




German horse attacks vHorse in Darwin, German wins. (9 of 12)
German horse attacks vJag in Broome, vJag wins. (10 of 13)
German horse attacks wounded vArcher on Mt. Boston and wins. (10 of 14)
German forces appear headed to Darwin.

Melbourne vHorse -> vSpear, 4 turns.
We also lost horses when we abandoned Boston.

[I] 04 0270 BC
Trading
Other
Rubyvale catapult misses.
Cairns catapult misses.

Battle of Darwin Round 3
Darwin is defended by 1 vSword 1/4, so it is the city the Germans want to attack.
Four German units (2 rArchers and 2 rHorses) could attack Darwin next turn.
Move two swords into Darwin; wake vJag in Townsville and send to Darwin and fortify it.
Darwin can be attacked, but all four Germans attacks must succeed to capture the city.

Move rSpear back to Townsville.
Move new vHorse from Melbourne to Brisbane.

Could move settler in New Boston to pink square, along with some defenders. However, this leaves New Boston open to attack. Will wait.
From New Boston, settler can reach pink square in one turn, build city the following turn.




Archer attacks our new city stack by Bonn, promotes our spear to Elite. (11 of 15)
Archer attacks eSword in Darwin and losses, eSword 3/5. (12 of 16)
Archer attacks vSword in Darwin and losses, vSword 3/4. (13 of 17)
Horse attacks eSword in Darwin and retreats, eSword at 1/5. (14 of 18)
Horse attacks vSword 1/4 in Darwin and wins. (14 of 19)

After movement, 4 good units can attack Darwin, aided by 2 wounded horses.
4 horses are due north of Cairns.


We learn Currency; begin Code of Laws, 40 turns.
Canberra settler -> settler, 5 turns.
French are building the Great Wall.
French have learned Construction.

[I] 05 0250 BC
Trading
Other
At the pale blue box, found Down Under Slumber; grows in 10, rSpear in 20.
Fortify all units in Down Under Slumber (spear, archer and 3 cats).

Move settler to pink square, no Germans around.
Move vJag from Broome to pink square.

Catapult in Cairns hits a horse next to Darwin.
Move vHorse to Darwin and fortify.


[IBT]

And the save is >>Here<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Tupac03_250_BC.SAV).

Oops!

One thing we did not consider is that when we abandoned Boston we also lost two strategic resources; iron and horses.

We can get them back, horses quickly, iron not so quickly. The next city built will give us back horses. To get iron we need either a colony or culture expansion. Colony is the quick fix, but is it the best. We might be able to whip a temple and get the iron that way. Have not investigated, just an idea.

Battle Map 250 BC (End of Turn):
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/tupac03/0250BC_NorthBattleMapTrimmedDotted.jpg



Techs
We can trade currency to Joan for either Map Making or Construction; did not try to force a two-fer on her. At this level, not sure which is the better choice.

We just learned Currency, and have no beakers invested in Code of Law. Is this the tech to learn next?

The German War
Darwin has been the target of almost all German attacks. This seems likely to continue. Down Under Slumber may become the main target since it is isolated and close to Bonn. Hope it does become the main target, will give Darwin a chance to grow and units time to heal and move to DUS. Our next city, ready to be built, could also be a target of Germany, since it will only be defended (briefly) with only a vJag.

Very good turnset CommandoBob! :goodjob: I'm not much of a time nazi so dont stress if the turns arent finished by the morn :)

As for the iron, we dont need a colony. When we settle the pink dot you will notice there would only be 1 tile unclaimed between it and the culture of the city southwest of it. As that is the case the game will automatically fill in the one tile difference with our borders. Just found the city and we get iron back.

Just a quick comment (and I may have misinterpreted from your log)

You appear to be using swords for town defence.
Swords defending v horse or archers are only slightly better than 50/50, but attacking these 1 defence units are highly likely to succeed. Hence where ever possible suggest looking for swords to attack rather than defend.

Of course it would be nice to have a few more spears to use for defence and a few more horses to knock off those redlined horses, but then diety is about making do without all the units and improvements you want :rolleyes:

Germany seems to have quite a few units west of the Rubyvale - Cairnes line at the moment making this a challenging battle. Well done holding fort so far.

I cant see what our cash in hand is like, but if we wish to take advantage of the disconection of iron and build 3 or 4 jags, then upgrade.

Just a quick comment (and I may have misinterpreted from your log)

You appear to be using swords for town defence.
You are right; at Darwin I have been using swords on defense. They were available, so I used them. They have not been fortified all the time, which has made them more vulnerable to German attacks.

I did not realize swords would do so poorly against archers and horses. Or maybe I did, just did not expect the number of attackers and lack of healing time for the swords. The Human Wave is not just a Russian tactic (at least here).

The vArcher(s) in Cairns may attack the horse stack due west of it before the IBT. Two of those units are wounded and may retreat on the IBT. The other units in Cairns will keep it too tough for the Germans to attack, so once again good order German units head to Darwin.

What would be nice (I am dreaming here) would be a stack of 2 vSpears and 2 or more vArchers along the German path to Darwin, say on Mt. Darwin. These would be used to take potshots at Germans and reduce the strength of their attack. If they were on Mt. Darwin, it would make their path to Darwin longer.

Some vJags or even rJags would be nice to track down and kill German wounded and stragglers.

Cash in hand is 98 gold, +21 gpt.

@tupaclives: thanks for the info on border and the iron. This means we should have iron connected at the end of the next turn. Maybe. Will wait and see when we build the city. Curious to see if the tiles are picked up when we build the city or on the IBT when the border check is done.

What would be nice (I am dreaming here) would be a stack of 2 vSpears and 2 or more vArchers along the German path to Darwin, say on Mt. Darwin. These would be used to take potshots at Germans and reduce the strength of their attack. If they were on Mt. Darwin, it would make their path to Darwin longer.
Even 1 spear on Mt Darwin would be a thorn in the German path

Some vJags or even rJags would be nice to track down and kill German wounded and stragglers.
Some vJags to upgrade to swords would be OK, not regs. Horses are better for mopping up stray / wounded units

Cash in hand is 98 gold, +21 gpt.
Thats enough for 2 jag upgrades and 1 per 2 turns - suggest maybe 4 jags

Disclaimer
I have been able to only play one more complete turn, so I will post the save and skip the remainder of this turn set. I have had too much fun to quit, but I cannot hold up the game any longer.

The save is at the end of this post.

The Game
************** save and post turns so far **************************
Per CivAssistII Germany is a Republic and has been all this turnset.
Germany is also in the Middle Ages. Not good.
France is still in Ancient Times and still in despotism.

Germany will not talk to us.
France will trade Currency for Map Making.
For Construction, France was WM, Currency, 82 gold (of 98) and 2 gpt (of 21).
For Map Making and Construction, France will accept WM, Currency, 81 gold (of 98) and 19 gpt (of 21).
Think we can do better later.

In earlier posts I mentioned I was surprised about the lack of defense of Swordsman. I thought it defended with 3, but it is 2. Either I have played the Romans too much, with the Legionnaires, or the defense value changed from Vanilla to PTW. Either way, I was wrong.

Wake vArcher in Cairns to take a potshot at the German horses between Cairns and Darwin.
vArcher vs. rHorse, we redline horse, lose and promote Horse to Veteran 2/4. (15 of 20)

Wake rJag in Canberra and send to Cairns, makes 3 defenders in Cairns.
Hit Enter.

Wounded Germans retreat to Mt. Darwin.
One archer attacks our good eSword in Darwin and loses (16 of 21).
German movement towards Darwin, no other German attacks.

Perth vHorse -> vSpear, 4 turns.

06 0230 BC
Trading
Other
We found IronHorse City on the pink square, grows in 10, walls in 10.
Iron and Horse are both reconnected.

Fire the clown in Perth, now 1Happy, 2Content, 1Unhappy.
Move 3 workers towards Down Under Slumber, to build the road to connect it in one turn and then move back south.
Settler to New Boston.
New vHorse from Perth to Darwin.
Canberra at size 3, switch to vSword in 4. May switch back to settler, but force of arms seems critical just now.
Perth is cranky, buy the clown back.

Battle of Darwin Round 5
Catapult in Cairns hits a German horse next to Darwin.
vHorse vs. rHorse, green wins flawlessly! (17 of 22)
vHorse vs. rHorse, blue is redlined and promotes 2/4. (17 of 23)

Five defensive units are in Darwin to deal with an expected attack of one German horse. In Darwin are two wounded eSwords, 4/5 and 3/5, one vSword, one vHorse and one vJag.

game save.


[IBT]

And the save is >>Here<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Tupac03_230_BC.SAV).

Tech Trading

I did not take the chance on a trade with France. We could get Map Making and Construction for WM, 81 gold (of 98) and 19 gpt of 21 gpt. Seemed a bit steep and would not leave with only a little bit of cash flow. This was in 250 BC; in 230 BC we had better cash flow but did not talk to France.

Battle Map 230 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/tupac03/0230BC_NorthBattleMapTrimmedDotted.jpg


The German War
Darwin is still the city the Germans love to attack. Darwin should survive this IBT. It has five defenders and at most two fully healed units that could attack. Darwin’s walls are built this IBT, so our defenders get 50% better when they defend.

Darwin, Rubyvale and Cairns are fairly strong. Our three new cities are not. Of them, Down Under Slumber is best defended with an archer, spear and catapults. IronHorse City is defended by a vJag and New Boston has no defensive units.

On the next turn I was considering sending a spear from Rubyvale to Mt. Darwin.

However, several of our healed units in Darwin can head west to beef up these defenses. I think it will be about three turns or so before Germany heads to IronHorse City or Down Under Slumber. In those three turns all our current wounded would be healed and we would have some reinforcements also.

I have seen only a few veteran units from Germany. Most have been regular. I would like to think that the onslaught might slow down as Germany slows its city making and has fewer freebie units to throw at us.

No German swords, either.

Workers
There are three workers heading towards Down Under Slumber. These units are not on auto move. My plan was to drop these three onto one tile and complete the road to Down Under Slumber in one turn and then send the workers back south.

Three workers will finish clearing a jungle tile this IBT; in one more turn they could make a road.

I got it and will play this evening. What do you guys think, should we trade currency to France now, they might buy it from the Germans and we lose our opportunity.

I got it and will play this evening. What do you guys think, should we trade currency to France now, they might buy it from the Germans and we lose our opportunity.
I suspect Germans lack currency as well (well they did at end of my turnset)
My thought was to get peace ASAP with Germany, trade monopoly currency to both Germany and France, aiming for only small gpt payment if any to France, but large gpt payment to Germany, then get Germany to re-dow.
This does run the risk of Bismark deciding to keep his gpt payment, but so far he has beeen very predictable in dow-ing us at slightest provocation (certainly on being asked to remove forces from our territory).
In this worst case scenario we have at least purchased a tech for our gpt
Getting France into alliance v Germany would prevent them trading, but would lock us into 20 turns removing option of peace treaty if things get too tight (the AI will negotiate peace treaty favourably if we have taken a few of their towns even though they may be about to get ours) The short wars then favourable peace treaty has worked well for us so far.

In Bob's notes he says that Germany is in the MA, so they have currency.

In Bob's notes he says that Germany is in the MA, so they have currency.
:scan: you're right
makes it important to trade immediately with France and peace with Germany can wait until it suits us

Pre-flight check: Contact Joanie, trade Currency, WM, 21gpt and 27 gold for MM and Construction. Change clown in Perth to scientist, drop science to 0%. Wake a sword and kill a horse, with a jag kill a horse. Switch some tiles, switch New Boston to cat, update a jag in Melbourne to a sword, TAK to harbour, Tarzana to harbour. (2-0)

IBT: Germans load a galley up north

Turn 1 (210BC): Adelaide horse->horse, Darwin Walls->Barracks. I switch Brisbane to harbour, we should get a trade route with France and trade furs to ivory. eSword redlines a horse, it retreats. Another eSword kills it, no leader. Horse doesn't do a scratch to an archer, but retreats. Jag kills redlined spear. Need a taxman in Adelaide as it grow to size 5. Change Adelaide to settler. (4-0)

IBT: Two horses and an archer die attacking Darwin.(7-0)

Turn 2 (190BC): Melbourne spear->worker. Every turn I bombard all the Germans I can. Now that the road to Down Under Slumber is ready, I bring 4 cats down to the killing zone. Kill redlined horse with a jag. Germans still not willing to talk. Change some tiles to get more gold and change IronHorse from walls to cat. It shouldn't get attacked.(8-0)

IBT: Germans land an archer and a horse in forest near Broome!

Turn 3 (170BC): Canberra sword->market, we need to build some infra, war might be over soon. Horse kills horse, Horse I followed the galley with kills the landed archer going elite! Archer from Broome retreats the landed horse, jag finishes it. Two eSwords kill archers, no leaders. Horse kills archer. Germans won't talk. (14-0)

IBT: I guess taking the cats out of Down Under Slumber was a mistake as a horse from Bonn kills our fortified ELITE spear, and another horse kills our archer and Germans burn Down Under Slumber!!! (14-2)

Turn 4 (150BC): Bris harbour->horse, Perth spear->spear, Melbourne worker->horse, Cairns sword->temple, Townsville spear->worker. Temple in Cairns is for widening the borders there. Sword dies to a horse on grass... Elite jag kills redlined spear. France has CoL! And we can trade!! Furs to France for Ivory, WM and 29gold. I could buy CoL with all our treasury, decide to do it and set research to republic. Germany talks and they will give money for peace, so I take peace and WM, 1gpt and 26gold from the germans. I SEE BORDERS TO OUR SOUTH! Switch Canberra to galley, ready in two. Perth and Bris to settlers. (15-3)

IBT: zzzz

Turn 5 (130BC): Create a blockade to stop german settlers. Darwin to court. Start chops to hurry the court. Melbourne to market.

IBT: zzzzz

Turn 6 (110BC): Canberra galley->market, Adelaide settler->market. Settler in position to settle pink dot.

IBT: Germans start Sun Tzu, so they have pikes.

Turn 7 (90BC): Settle Alice Springs->worker. Hmmm, we are paying a lot of money to France, tell Joan to get off our lands -> she says they'll leave.

IBT: zzzzz

Turn 8 (70BC): Townsville worker->worker. Galley in position, we will meet the foreigners the next turn! Switch Canberra to duct.

IBT: zzzzz

Turn 9 (50BC): Bris settler->market, Perth settler->market. We contact India!! They don't know anybody, but know REPUBLIC! First sell Math to India for 210gold and 5gpt. Then sell Construction and Lit for Republic, WM, 7gpt and 7gold. Gandhi has lots of land! Republic to France for Poly, WM and 3gold(all they had). We're in the Middle Ages!! Germany knows Feudalism and Engineering so set research to Monotheism. We are not going to research it so I shut the research. I don't sell contacts yet, we might benefit for trades. Egyptians have The Great Lighthouse, so these guys aren't going to meet. I don't revolt, and quit here. The game is in a turning point now, and I don't want to make any big decisions.


These were nice turns. Losing a city when fortified elite spear lost to a horse was bad. And not getting a leader with this many elite wins and being militaristic wasn't nice. But meeting Gandhi and doing some trading really helped.

There are three workers going to the gems mountain. We need luxes for republic. We are religious, so no anarchy.

And the game and a screenshot:

Good turns Merlin! And 15-3 in the Win/Loss columns.

IBT: Germans land an archer and a horse in forest near Broome!

They did this to me also on my few turns. I think we need to give them a taste of their own medicine, the next time we go warring with Bismarck.

What next? (Rambling thoughts from the top of my head)

The land of India is very inviting. Almost a circle of land, with room for two good RCPs and space for lots of cities. Very nice indeed.

But -
to take out India we have to keep forces on hand to deal with Germany. We have a short border with Germany and the terrain is in their favor. Also, they have tried two times to take Broome by sea, which would indicate that a land border alone will not keep the Krauts out.

I think that Germany is a bigger threat than India, and a closer threat also. It needs to be dealt with first.

We need to resettle our lost city in order to take out Bonn. A city on the hill just east of Rubyvale, currently in no-mans-land, would help to breach the German geological defenses. A city on the coast SE of Bonn and next to the river would allow us to land units in the German's backyard.

Capturing Nuremberg would really open the pathway to the German interior and Berlin.

Is it too soon to consider the Forbidden Palace and planning a palace jump into Germany?

Great turnset Merlin, excellent trading! Just one question though...

Germany knows Feudalism and Engineering so set research to Monotheism.

I assume you mean that Germany knows Monotheism as well? They would have got it as their free tech when entering the MA, in vanilla there is no random tech selection. Going into the MA it is ALWAYS monotheism, into the IA it is ALWAYS nationalism and going modern it is ALWAYs rocketry.

I can't look at the save now so I'll just pose some questions for the team.

1. Do we want to start building the FP now?
2. If so, where?
3. Do we want to revolt to Republic now?
4. Who do we plan to go to war with next?
5. What are our thoughts on research?

For the questions.


Do you need the FP?
Since this is vanilla/ptw, then build it away from the palace because it will have zero corruption.
If you are not at war and can expect mostly victories, yes, switch would be good. Make sure you dont go over the unit support limit.
I dont know because im not in this SG.
I dont know because im not in this SG.


sorry if the help was unnecessary.:sad:

Great turnset Merlin, excellent trading! Just one question though...

I assume you mean that Germany knows Monotheism as well? They would have got it as their free tech when entering the MA, in vanilla there is no random tech selection. Going into the MA it is ALWAYS monotheism, into the IA it is ALWAYS nationalism and going modern it is ALWAYs rocketry.



This is is what surprised me too. They DID NOT get Mono. I also thought that in vanilla you ALWAYS get mono, but no, not this time. I don't know why....

1. Do we want to start building the FP now?


Yes, the sooner we get it the better. The cumulative effects mean, that the sooner you build it, the more you gain.


2. If so, where?


I chopped towards Courthouse in Darwin. In republic, we can rush the rest with cash. Darwin is in a good central position to reduce lot of corruption. Later when we have conquered Germany, we can move the Palace there. I was hoping for a leader in my turns, I would have rushed the FP.


3. Do we want to revolt to Republic now?


I'd do it. It gives so much more food, shields and commerce. We do have a happiness problem, so hooking up the gems is a first priority. We have to run lux tax for some time, but we should still make more money in republic.


4. Who do we plan to go to war with next?


I'd say that Germany is still the only feasible target. I'd build some infra (esp. markets) first, then military and build a city on hill by the river 3 SE rubyvale and start the attack there. We cannot capture German cities at this point, because they'd surely flip.


5. What are our thoughts on research?


We can't do research at this point. No libraries, deity AI's research too fast and we have a great opportunity to make deals when Germans and French don't know India. We could try to find Egypt and Iroquis with a suicide galley. If we accomplish that, we'd be in great position.

Agree with you on all points Merlin, I was leaning toward a Darwin FP as well, and the only reason I asked about our targets was that CommandoBob brought up the possibility of warring with India and I wanted to see what everyone else thought.

Consider this a got it. I'll play straight away.

Agree

FP in Darwin after court
Revolt to Rep now whilst not at war
Next war still v Germany
Suicide galley could reap big rewards

PS nice turns Merlin

Forbidden Palace

Just building the Forbidden Palace is not enough. It should be part of a larger plan. That plan should focus on Germany, our closest neighbor and two time sparring partner. Germany is the most aggressive AI so far in the game and will not be easy to reign in. Germany is building Pikes now, so any attacking will need to be rather soon before the pikes are everywhere.

But before we get too focused on Germany we should evaluate the location of our capital. Is this where we want our primary core of cities to be? Or can we jump our palace to a better location and if so, where is that? And how do we get there?

Canberra is not the ideal capital location for one main reason: too much water and not enough land. If Canberra were located where Berlin is we could build on 20 of the 24 tiles of the first ring of RCP1. Where we are located we could only build on 10 of the 24.

If Canberra is a temporary capital, then the FP needs to be built what that in mind. Melbourne is our second most productive city, churning out 7 spt, followed by Brisbane, Adelaide and Cairns, all producing 5 spt. Brisbane is the most centrally located of the bunch, so it would probably give us the biggest bang for our buck once the palace jumped. Probably, but not assuredly.

Exactly where the palace would jump is an open question. Before we jump it, we should have at least four cities on some part of Ring to take advantage of the jump and to prevent the exploit. Or at least place our new capital someplace where four cites could already be on the Rings. This could mean razing or abandoning some cities and moving them a tile or so away.

How to do this, which will mean some warring, needs to be discussed in more depth.

Other Nuggets of Data

Current Military per CivAssistII

Settler- 3
Worker – 17 (1 slave)
Archer (Longbowman) – 3
Spearman (Pike) – 9
Swordsman (no upgrade) – 6
Horseman (Knights) – 3
Catapult (Cannon) – 8
Galley (Caravel) – 1
Jaguar Warrior (Swordsman) – 10

Total 59 units

Current Situation at
Despotism: +15 gpt
Republic: -6 gpt :eek:

(Income almost doubles, but we have 59 units to support.)

France has no iron. Hmm. :scan:

Pre-Flight -

Things look good... just one thing...

Germany... it... it... it doesnt know monotheism! :eek:

Wtf???? I have played so many games of vanilla now and I have never, ever, ever played a game where a scientific civ did NOT get Monotheism as their free tech. How did that happen? Thats downright bizarre... perhaps an interesting thing to note is that i rolled up this start on the same day I rolled up the one i posted in general discussion (where there were 2 aztecs and 2 zulus)

I'm now stumped :confused: it just throws you out when something you consider to be certain turns out not to be...

Anyway OUR empire looks fine but I want to start min research on mono. I hire a scientist in 'Thats-a-knife' (all that happens is it loses an already corrupted shield). Mapstat shows something scary... if we were to revolt to republic then at 10.0.0 we would be suffering -6GPT!! :eek: Lets not revolt yet, the production bonus would be offset by the horrifying gpt loss. lets wait till our gpt payment is up (or we get a few more markets) before revolting.

IBT - India asks us to leave, i say we will (should consider a ROP to allow our galley to explore past them). India starts the Great Wall

Turn 1 - New Boston: Cat --> cat, Cairns: Temple --> market
Found Nhullunbuy (pronounced 'null-en-boy) on the former site of Down-Under-Slumber, set to walls. 1 settler headed for the gap between Rubbyvale and Bonn, the other fortifies in Cairns. Move troops around, use jags for mp duty back home n spears for mp duty on the front, also put swords and cats in cities on the front. 61gp gets us an embassy with India, Delhi is size 7 has 4 spears defending it, a temple, courthouse, granary and will complete the Great Wall in 8 turns. Oh and it also has 2 clowns hired.. :hmm:
45gp gets us RoP with India so we can head past their west coast.

IBT - Thebes completes Great Wall. Geez, Egypt's doing well wherever they are...

Turn 2 - Gems will be online in 4, think again about the settler in cairns and send him up to Nhullunbuy. There is a german galley in our waters but the best we can get is 'Leave now!' so cant start the war yet. You know whats interesting? Germany dont have iron hooked up...

IBT - Germany starts Sun Tzu's

Turn 3 - We have a nice 'ol stack in Nhullunbuy. Our rubbyvale-cairns line should be able to hold as well.

IBT - zzzz

Turn 4 - Rubyvale: Cat-->cat, Townsville: Worker-->cat. Ask germany to leave, they say they will. Worker moves... zzz

IBT - zzz

Turn 5 - Broome: Cat-->cat
Found Rockhampton. zzzz

IBT - Germany starts Leos, gems come online

Turn 6 - Just buildup and worker moves

IBT - zzzzzz

Turn 7 - Canberra: duct --> market

IBT - zzzzzz

Turn 8 - cant even demand germany leave this turn (nothing in our territory), New Boston: cat --> rax, Alice Springs: Worker --> Worker.
Send our galley into the ocean off the Indian west coast... spy green borders, check F10 and its Greece... so long as he survives the interturn we'll make contact...

IBT - Watch german guys move... sit and pray... and... the... galley... does.. NOT SINK!!!!!!

Turn 9 - Melbourne: Market --> Sword (gets culture expansion as well). Sail our galley calmly into Greek waters (reaches the coast so can keep exploring!) and not only do we make contact with greece... we sail alongside an egyptian galley!

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/6050/picture26zs.jpg

Dial up both. Greeks are up Monarchy, feudalism and Monotheism (aha, at least 1 scientific civ got the correct tech!), Egypt is up Monarchy. Both have contact with the iroquois.

Greece wont sell Monotheism but will sell Feudalism for 160gp + WM + contact with India, i decide to withhold the trade as i'd rather not give up contacts yet. Germany wonts 16gpt, 314gp, world map + contact with greece for the same tech... pffft! yeh right!

The other reason i dont want to buy feudalism from greece is the best trade we could then swing with it would be for monarchy. Ideally Iroquois get monotheism very soon, egypt picks it up from the great library, we find iroquois (so we are buying at 4th civ) then buy mono, sell it to Germany at monopoly for (hopefully) engineering, then sell engineering to greece or whoever for feudalism. then sell feudalism to india or france who have hopefully picked up monarchy. That would be the ideal sequence of events but what are the odds of that? :crazyeye:

Not much else I can do this turn, I decide against establishing embassies straight away.

IBT - Greece asks us to leave... ill see if i can meet an iroquois in the next turn before automatically buying RoP with Greece. Also look at trading and we can BUY contact with iroquois for just 50gp.

Turn 10 - Not much really, our galley sails northward but finds more greek. I pass a fair few egyptian galleys... i think they could be at war. Oh well, heres the end of my turnset.

Notes: We know all civs but iroquois, no1 else no each other save greece n egypt, and Germany-France. So we are in a great trading position. i'm sure Andronicus will be able to best exploit that advantage :)

Might be worht checking now what sort of state our economy would be in if we changed to republic now as opposed to the start of my turn. probably not much better. Couldnt start the FP in Darwin because the courthouse received chops. An embassy with greece or egypt (whoevers cheaper) might be an idea to find out if they are in fact at war.
Keep an eye out for 2-fers and the like. Don't really have much more to add, didn't manage much military build up during my turn so if we want another war with germany it will need to be limited (maybe just grab bonn and say nuremburg then go for peace).

Good luck Andronicus!

Our land

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/2689/picture30jd.th.jpg (http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture30jd.jpg)

The save

Hooray for meeting the Greeks and Egyptians!!

We founded two new towns, so unit support costs dropped. I think we should switch to republic. More markets online soon too.

In vanilla Republic has no unit support so it doesnt matter if we have more towns other than for the commerce but they will be corrupt so they will only contribute 1 commerce anyway.

I dont have experience with vanilla but my query is would we still have residual WW from Germany if we went to war again - my understanding is it takes 20 turns to dissipate. Is WW continued from previous war if your rival dows on you?

I'm feeling a bit civved out from playing until 4am last night so I will probably wait till tomorrow morning to start play my turns and may not get to complete / post until Fri morning. Hope that time frame's OK.

I think in vanilla scientific civs don't get monotheism 0.1% of the time or something like that.

Quiet builder set
Started building libs ? do we want these or ducts first?
Techs were horribly expensive, eventually bought mono from Greece and sold on to Egypt (despite they would have got it next turn from GLib), France & India netting Feudalism, Monarchy (FWIW) and a portion of our gpt outlay. Unfortunately Germany would not trade Engineering and learnt mono the turn before i could afford trade.
I revolted right away and gpt dropped from 21 to 18 but quickly improved up to over 50 when I did the trade.
With FP due shortly our finances will soon be in good shape
Unit costs are over 60 per turn but militarily we are thin if Germans attack
I hope France and Germany dont war as it would disrupt our ongoing ivory / furs deal and damage our rep

Pre turn
Revolt
IT
Become Republic

1) 170AD
Germans will not accept 37gpt + 361g + contacts(which I wont give) for engineering
Greece wont trade mono for all we own

IT
Germans have iron hooked up
IHC cat -> worker
Nhullumbuy walls -> cat

2) 190AD
Egypt now has Feud (charges 24gpt + 339), Greece 1gpt cheaper - I hold
Buy contact with Iroquois for 46g
Iroquois very backward - trade poly for WM + 25g
Now have Greece's WM and Egypt's TM :D

State of affairs in eastern hemisphere
Iroquois 2 cities northern end of east continent, no horses or iron, 1 lux
Egypt 11 cities on main continent (2 ex Iroquois) + 9 on islands, have horses, iron and 2 lux
Greece 8 cities south end eastern continent, have iron, horses 2 lux
Egypt are the runaway power over there

IT
Tarzana sword -> sword
Townsville cat -> market
Galley sunk in seas (Greek galleys were blocking my return to coast)

3) 210AD
zzz
IT
Melb sword -> sword

4) 230AD
zzz
IT
New B rax -> sword
Darwin court -> FP
Greece building Sistine

5) 250AD
zzz
IT
Renew fur - ivory deal with France
Renew peace treaty with Germany
Adelaide market -> lib
Rockhampton walls -> cat
6) 260AD
zzz
IT
Canberra market -> lib
Melbourne sword -> lib

7) 270AD
Est embassies
Germany - ST in 12, size 12 with 4 pikes and 3 clowns
Egypt - ST in 4, size 12, 2 clowns
not enough cash for Greek embassy
Iroquois - size 8 building wealth :rolleyes:
IT
Cairnes market -> lib

8) 280AD
disband reg jags
mine some plains Canberra as has plenty of food
Embassy Greece - ST in 6, 4 clowns, 4 hops defending
IT
Brisbane market -> lib
Perth market -> lib
Germany have mono :(
Still cant afford trade

9) 290AD
Trade Greece 50gpt + 8g for mono
Trade Egypt mono for 11gpt, WM + 31g (all their gpt and cash)
Trade France mono for feudalism + WM
Trade India mono for WM, 9gpt, 30g + monarchy
Research set to chivalry single scientist (feel free to change as only 1 beaker used)
IT
Egypt build Sun Tzu's
Greece switches to Sistine

10) 300AD
zzz

And here I hand it on

A squiz at our little empire and a sneak preview of its efficiency once FP is built - note particuarly that towns aroud Darwin become very productive, esp improving corruption in IHC and Alice (thats why I started markets there)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Tupac03_300AD.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Tupac03_300ad_-_economy1.JPG

Just have the map to go by; not the game.

Upgrade the spears to pikes?

Follow the libs and markets with a sword or two, then switch back to making the city better?

Settlers?

Need to keep a low profile and stay out of Germany's way.

Just have the map to go by; not the game.

Upgrade the spears to pikes?

Follow the libs and markets with a sword or two, then switch back to making the city better?

Settlers?

Need to keep a low profile and stay out of Germany's way.

I would prefer to avoid war with Germany until after completed main infrasructure esp FP.

Probably worth upgrading a few strategic units to place on front line duty with reserves held in a rax town ready to upgrade at first sign of trouble.

Settlers not really needed until we go on the offensive

Germany has LBs, I set research to cav for trading purposes primarily, but military advantage for whoever has knights is big too

Roster
tupaclives
Andronicus - just played
CommandoBob - UP
Merlin - ON DECK

Solid turns Andronicus!

I also don't have the game to give comments, but still some comments: If we haven't sold our WM around, we might make some nice cash with it. Selling the maps doesn't sell contacts. And anyways, the other civs are going to meet sooner rather than later, so I'd get the benefits of selling the contacts before loosing the opportunity. Trying to find the optimal timing usually misses the opportunity.

I'm not sure about the libraries just yet. I don't think we can do real research anytime soon, so I'd rather save the upkeep. Markets near the FP, maybe temples and cheap caths for happiness, we don't have that much luxuries. Or prepare for war against the germans. We could ally with the French and hope to destroy Bonn and Frankfurt, settle 2 new cities and hold the line until peace and then get some conpensation. Pikes in walled cities on hills with cats should do well against swords.

If we haven't sold our WM around, we might make some nice cash with it. Selling the maps doesn't sell contacts. And anyways, the other civs are going to meet sooner rather than later, so I'd get the benefits of selling the contacts before loosing the opportunity. Trying to find the optimal timing usually misses the opportunity.
I think Egypt built GLH (they built most wonders). They would need to send suicide galley across ocean to make contact - when did AI last do that?
French - Indian contact is likely with astronomy, but requires traversing sea tiles before that. I think we are OK for time being. (crosses fingers ;) )



I'm not sure about the libraries just yet. I don't think we can do real research anytime soon, so I'd rather save the upkeep. Markets near the FP, maybe temples and cheap caths for happiness, we don't have that much luxuries.
Suggest looking at civassist screenie I posted - shows a healthy extended core after Darwin builds FP. Most of our towns can be grown to full size with max infrastructure. I think the time we will need science is after magnetism and contacts prevent our middleman barterring. I would hope to have markets, banks, libs and at least some unis by then. This will require gradual infrastructure builds - at present are getting huge boost from markets, but lib benefit will be in future. The issue may be we cant build all of libs, banks and unis when we want them so building libs earlier may make sense. It wont hurt us culturally.


Or prepare for war against the germans. We could ally with the French and hope to destroy Bonn and Frankfurt, settle 2 new cities and hold the line until peace and then get some conpensation. Pikes in walled cities on hills with cats should do well against swords.
I admit to considerable indecision during my turn whether to provoke another war with Germans or not.
Concern was both effect on rep if trade route with France disrupted as well as defensive capability spears v LBs
Half a doz pikes strategically on mountains and walled towns on eastern front with non-upgraded spears in core ready to upgrade if troops landed behind lines makes sense to me.
I half-heartedly commenced min research on chivalry with view knights could be big in next German war - someone else will certainly research before us.
Agree swords and cats are still quite powerful when stacked properly
Waiting for astronomy to dow maintains our trade route

I must ask for a skip on these turns.

I have spent all this Saturday working on my 30th high school reunion and playing my turns in SGOTM9. I had hoped to be done with both of these long before now, but that has not happened. Tomorrow is no better: church in the morning, high school planning meeting in the afternoon and church again in the evening.

The ten turns in SGOTM9 (Monarch level) took me 6 game hours, plus about two hours to get my log presentable, images tweaked and log posted. This game, at Diety, would have been even longer. So I must ask for the skip.

(And these looked like fun turns: building things and getting ready to make some German cities speak Aztec.)

Ammended Roster
tupaclives - ON DECK
Andronicus - just played
CommandoBob - skip
Merlin - UP

OK, so I'm up. I got it and will probably play in a few hours.

I still think that we shouldn't build libreries atm. It's 80 shields and I'd rather have two swords and a cat instead of a library. If we have a war against the germans soon, we need the troops. We have so good trading opportunities now, that self research isn't worth it.

Sorry I didn't post before, but my internet connection broke. My ISP was sold to a bigger company and there has been some difficulties. Yesterday I lost my connection for good. I played my turns, but couldn't post. So I had to bring the save and the turnlog to work on an USB-stick. Anyway, here are my turns:

I'm not going to keep the library builds. We are running 20% lux tax, we won't get new luxuries until Magnetism, so we cannot afford research. I rather build Caths for happiness. Those are cheap because we are religious.

Pre-flight check: Change Canberra->Cath, Bris->Pike, Perth->Duct, Melbourne->Duct, Cairns->Cath. We could get loads of cash for selling our WM, but I hold until tech trades.

IBT: German boat comes to our waters.

Turn 1 (310AD): I call Bismarck and complain about his troops -> they don't declare. I think mining the plains near Canberra was a mistake. Canberra doesn't need irrigation, but the cities south of it do. So I start the irrigation project again. We can mine them back after we have irrigation in the south.

IBT: The RoP with Gandhi ends.

Turn 2 (320AD): Broome cat->worker. Germans know chivalry, so they have knights. War probably not a good idea now. I sell TM to France for WM and 3gold. TM to Germans for their WM.

IBT: zzzz

Turn 3 (330AD): Canberra Cath->Pike, Tarzana sword->market. I sell the Iroquis Philo for WM and 2 gold.

IBT: Greece joined the Iroquis to fight Cleo. Iroquis won't last long.

Turn 4 (340AD): Rubyvale temple->rax.

IBT: zzzz

Turn 5 (350AD): Canberra pike->harbour, Brisbane pike->duct. Buy two workers from France for TM and 51gold.

IBT: zzzz

Turn 6 (360AD): We're not getting anywhere. Other continent is at war so their research is shut. Germany is running away, so I declare on them. Bomb troops near Bonn, kill all the horses and archers. One win gives us our first LEADER! Change Darwin to market, rush it (40g). Will use leader for FP next turn. (9-0)

IBT: Sword dies to LB (9-1).

Turn 7 (370AD): Melbourne duct->horse, Darwin market->FP, Broome riots, sorry. Put the lone scientist to Broome. Rush the FP, We will destroy Bonn next turn.

IBT: Lost a worker, because didn't see a horse under an archer. Germans complete Leo's at Berlin.

Turn 8 (380AD): Adelaide duct->temple, Darwin FP->duct, Broome worker->market. Only one cat hits defender in Bonn. eSword wins spear, eSword wins spear, eSword kills horse, eHorse kills LB -> no leaders. Bonn razed, found Bundaberg -> temple to get whales. Kill a horse near Cairns. Lux to 10%, New Boston gets a scientist. Our income jumps to 100gpt. (14-1)

IBT: German troops moving.

Turn 9 (390AD): Canberra harbour->sword, Nhullunbuy cat->cat, Rockhampton cat->barracks. Rush rax in Rubyvale for 48gold. See first German knight, redline it. Bomb other troops. Lose sword against spear, kill the redlined knight, kill LB. (16-2)

IBT: Germans get to Mt.Darwin again... I should not have moved the sword off it

Turn 10(400AD): Perth duct->temple, Melbourne horse->horse, Cairns cath->sword, Rubyvale barracks->cat. Bomb germans, kill a knight and 5 horses. Move a horse to pillage the german ONLY connected iron, hopefully it won't get attacked. (22-2)

Play one more turn, because last time I played nine and I want to see if I can pillage their iron.

IBT: OUR HORSE SURVIVES. He even kills two germans defending! Lose a jag that killed a horse last turn. Germans start to run towards the horse on iron. (24-3)

Turn 11(410AD): Adelaide temple->harbour. Pillage Germans iron. Bomb and kill 5 horses. Move troops to Mt.Darwin. WE HAVE TRADE OPPORTUNITIES!! (29-3)

The main reason for war was that the we were falling behind fast and Germany running away. We couldn't trade with the other continent, because they were warring. I'm hoping for a fast war with us getting a tech in peace. Or atleast a huge discount. Getting a leader and hurrying FP was a great bonus.

And the save and some ideas.

As you can read from the log, I didn't build any libraries. We were running 20% luxtax, we can't buy new luxuries for a long time, our income was weak and our trading opportunities were great. I build markets and caths and was able to lower the luxtax. Now because of the FP and some payments ending, we're making over 100gpt.

I started a war against Germany, because we were falling behind. The other continent was warring and India by itself couldn't research. The only trading opportunities appeared on the last turn. I didn't trade, but the next player should.

Germany doesn't have iron now. So no knights, pikes or swords. they were mainly sending horses, archers and spears, so we arent in trouble. They didn't attack Rubyvale or Cairns, so I could shoot them with cats and kill when they're injured.

Gutsy dow - I think you made the right decision, but I was too timid
Looks like tupaclives will have a fun turnset:ar15:

Haven't been able to check the save yet but from your log it sounds great! The leader on the first turn was terrific luck! :)
I guess this makes me up. As I go away for the holidays tomorrow I better get stuck in right away!

Pre-Flight:

Things look good :goodjob: nice to see our economy up and running, and thats with us making 50gpt worth of payments as well!
Pull the sword out of Darwin and kill a spear in the 2spear, 2 archer stack by Cairns. (1-0), pull a 4/4 spear out of Alice Springs to cover our 3/4 sword.

IBT - Our elite iron killing horse kills a German horse on defence, but then dies to a knight. (2-1)

Turn 1 - Canberra: Sword --> Sword. Use cats to weaken guys then kill a spear flawlessly with eSword. Kill reg archer flawlessly with eHorse (4-1).
Kill 2 weakend spears with already damaged swords and win both times (6-1). Pull our spear off Rubyvale mountain and upgrade him in Rubyvale, and in the meantime send the pike already in rubyvale onto the mountain.

IBT - with the amount of knights coming into our territory I really don't think that we disconnected their only source of iron. Could... get... ugly :twitch:

Turn 2 - Perth: Temple --> Sword, Melbourne: Horse --> Horse.
Theres a really nast attack force outside Rubyvale.
3 knights
4 Lb's
2 pikes
3 archers
1 horse

Luckily only the knights and horse can attack in the interturn and we have pikes + walls + fortified + attacking across a river = defence 6 so we should be ok.
Catapults redline everything they can touch :D.
Kill a knight, 3 archers, a spear and a horse (3 elite wins, 3 vet wins, 1 promotion, no leaders). (10-1)

IBT - the slow movers in the nasty 'ol stack leave... :confused: and the knights team up with 2 others and head south toward Cairns. I guess putting the extra pike in rubyvale made it less appealing to the AI :lol:. Annoyingly the knights are in attack range of Cairns for next turn but are too far away to be catted.

Turn 3 - Cairns: Sword --> Sword.
Preparing for the attack. With nothign to bombard this turn its just moving guys to best deal with the attack. Pull the spear out of darwin and into Cairns and upgrade him to a pike along with the fortified spear there.

IBT - kill the first knight with our fortified pike (is redlined though) the newly upgraded pike then retreats a knight but then dies (redlines the knight though) and the final knight is retreated by our 3rd pike. (11-2)
Athens completes Sistine Chappel. War Weariness goes up.

Turn 4 - Canberra: Sword --> Sword, Adelaide: Harbour --> Horse (and gets culture expansion), Townsville: Market --> cat, Rubyvale: Cat --> cat.
Redline whats in range then go :hammer: on the germans!
Kill 3 knights and 2 spears for no loss (4 elite wins, 1 vet win, no promotions no leaders). (16-2). Raise lux to 20% to counter WW. Ouch income drops 40gpt. Upgrade 3 spears to pikes.

IBT - our furs-ivory lux deal is up for renewal and Joan wont accept unless we throw in 5gpt. If we dont renew we'll lose the double happy-face from the 3rd lux and our whole empire will riot. So obviously I pay. The Germans go marching 4 by 4 hurrah, hurrah...

Turn 5 - Perth: sword --> horse (i plan on buying Chivalry next turn), Melbourne: horse --> horse, Nhullunbuy: cat --> cat.
Bombard the german forces. Kill 2 archers, 3 lb's and pop a leader! :D
Name the victorious horseman General IzUat (the name of the GL spawned). Form an army with the leader (in prepartion for knights in a turn). (21-2)
Switch all mil builds to horses.

IBT - germans move around

Turn 6 - New Boston: market --> horse, Darwin: duct --> rax. Cancel our RoP with Iroquois. Call up Egypt, MA v Iroquois + 22gpt buys us Engineering. (hopefully they'll either wipe out Iroquois or make peace with them soon and we wont have to pay all the money). Call up India, engineering buys us Theology, Chivalry, 30gp, World Map and 8gpt.
Chivalry + Theology to France gets us WM + Invention + 27gp.
Chivalry to Greece nets us Education + 3gp + WM + 11gpt.

So in summary

Egypt: MAvIroquois + 22gpt for Engineering
India: Engineering for Theology + Chivalry + 30gp + WM + 8gpt
France: Chivalry + Theology for WM + 27gp + Invention
Greece: Chivalry for Education + 3gp + WM + 11gpt.

Or a better summary

MAvIroquois (prob won't even last the full 20) + 3gpt for
Engineering
Theology
Chivalry
Invention
Education
60gp
A fully updated WM

Upgrade all our non-elite horses to knights (plus our elite* horse).
Bombard all germans, kill a redlined spear with an elite horse but no leader. (22-2).

Now for the bad news...

Greece has Astronomy but they haven't started Cops so they probably only got it either last turn or this... how long do you guys think we'll have before we lose our contact advantage?

IBT - A lot of German knights arrive. Tarzana riots.

Turn 7 - Oops forgot to change the research after the trades :woops: set to PP at 1 scientist. Cairns gets culture expansion. My plan is to attack Frankfurt next turn. To this end I empty Cairns (apart from 1 pike of its own and a pike brought from Darwin... oh and the cats) the rest of the force so 1 knight, 2 elite swords, 1 pike, and a lot of vet swords move onto the mountain besides Frankfurt... its defended by a reg spear :lol:.
Bombard the dudes up near Rubyvale (plannign to get first army win here). Kill a knight, an archer and 4 LB's by Rubyvale but no leader (28-2). Our 50gpt deal with Greece expires next turn so I might see if I can't swing somethign to grab Music Theory (nice wonder and they are more willing to sell) or Astronomy from Greece. Set Canberra to Heroic Epic (due in 12).

IBT - 2 German knights suicide against our Pike and Knight in the stack respectively (30-2) (gotta love the 100% defence bonus of mountains :D). Other knights move their way. See a German musket... interestign... if we could get Gunpowder for peace before greece discovers everyone we could do somethign quite good... the spear in Frankfurt is still a spear.

Turn 8 - Broome and Melbourne riot. Set 1 taxman in each. Darwin: rax --> temple. Kill a LB and a spear (32-2) and begin the siege of Frankfurt, this will be a bit worse than most sieges due to the lack of catapults.
vKnight retreats v Reg spear (2/3)
vSword dies v Reg spear (2/3, promotes to 3/4)
eSword wins v vet spear (is 1/5 though) and pops a leader! name him Acamapichiti (sorry I have this habbit of simply naming the leader poppers after the GL spawned). We should probably use the leader for Bach's if we can get the tech off Greece.
vSword dies v Reg spear (1/3 promotes ot 2/4)
vSword wins v vet spear (1/4)
vSword wins v vet (1/4) knight.

And we raze Frankfurt!

Now Germany will talk. Peace is worth, in cash terms, 85gp and 49gpt! Woahza! They have Astronomy too though, our contact hoarding days are very likely over. Decide not to do anything yet. See how much gpt it will cost us to buy Music from Greece... 49gpt is only doubtful.
Might just have to bite the bullet and feed the monster that is Germany if we really fancy trades... if we use our contacts its a hell of a lot cheaper... for just contact with India (who are a fair way behind and no other contacts) we could buy gunpowder for 910gp + contact with India + 1gpt, hmm. Would cost 910gp + 28gpt otherwise...
Look guys I'm sorry but with 2 nations out there with Astro it will not be long before we see our contacts power start to fade.
Heres what I think though... Egypt has the Great Lighthouse, yet has no contacts besides us and those on her own continent. So Greece might not get contacts for a while, OTOH Germany will almost certainly be able to contact India by movign down by France and then across the small straight, which is quite likely. I say we strike while the iron is hot as it were and so I make peace with Germany.
World Map + Contact with India + 656gp with the peace for Gunpowder

Germany: Peace + WM + Contact with India + 656gp for Gunpowder. then I decide to see abotu Greece.
Greece: Gunpowder for WM + 24gp + Music Theory
then back to Germany...

ack! The germans won't sell Astronomy for Music Theory straight (and we hav monopoly on Music and we are at 3rd civ for astro!) They want as well, 278gp + 24gpt!
I say no thanks chum.
But then after a moments contemplation I decide to sell it. Will wait for Astro to be a bit more common before buying (we don't need it right now anyway).
Sell music Theory for more than our cash back (676gp + 1gpt)

Rush a knight in cairns (120gp) next turn will rush bach's with the leader.

Switch Darwin over to a settler to claim the space where frankfurt was (its a good spot in relation to our other cities though a bit indefensible...).
Cut lux spending by 10% now that we are out of war.
Oh yeah btw We have no saltpetre.
germany has 2 sources, france 1, india 1, the greek-egypt-iroquois continent has just 1 source for the 3 of them :lol:
obviously only greece, germany and ourselves can see saltpeter though.

IBT - Germany starts Cops.

Turn 9 - This will be my last so that we are back to a nicely rounded turn number (500AD).
Cairns: Knight --> Bach's.
Rush Bach's. Switch a few builds to civilian (Melbourne to cath for example).

Yeah not much really.

our empire

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/4526/picture221sp.jpg

Heres a summary of this turnset

Got Engineering, Theology, Chivalry, Invention, Education, Music Theory, Gunpowder.
Got a knight army (work in progress on the HE)
Got Bach's (well first thing next turn neway)
Got peace

Razed: Frankfurt

Spent (after getting money back): 2gpt (but also got 104gp of hard cash so really we spent -64!)
Lost: 1 of our contacts (I know some of you will be very unhappy about that but it was the least of our contacts)

You were right Andronicus... I DID have a fun turnset :)

Notes for the next player:

We have plenty of troops, I'd advise continuing the build up of knights though as one of germany's sources of saltpeter is very near the border and we might want to war soon to get that source before cavs come in. Currently just about our whole military is in the Cairns - Rubyvale line. Keep an eye out for the contact situation if you think that we really won't be able to hold on to them any longer than just sell.

Good luck Andronicus!

Oh yeah, and the save.

Way to go ... great turn set

Agree totally with your trading

Now do I play nice or should I tempt Mr Bismark back to war?

Very nice turns tupac and very nice trading!!! I'm not one bit unhappy about the contact sold. Better to get money than lose the chance. The razing of Frankfurt was great, we get more gems. Things look really good now!

If you want war, ask him for war.:D That way, you get free war happiness.:) Asking war can be by telling him to remove units or declare war.

Well its not good news
You're not going to like it
You're really not going to like it ...

1) Egypt dow on us immediately after buyimg tech for 29gpt
2) Rockhampton flips to Germany


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/600AD_-_german_front.JPG

2) Rockhampton flips to Germany

Well, there is a way to get it back....

Turnlog

Preturn
Trade with Egyptians since Bachs will be built next turn : Music Theory for 27gpt + 20g
Prefer to take settler from Cairnes than Darwin as Cairnes has more food
Daewin switched to temple

IT
Cairnes Bach's -> settler
Alice market -> rax
Greeks building Cop

1) 510AD

IT
Egypt demands contact with India - I refuse, they dow - cancels 19 turns of their 27gpt and 14 turns of our 22gpt for MA v Iroquois, also get WH
Brisbane duct -> knight
Darwin temple -> knight
Adelaide temple -> knight

2) 520AD
Trade Greece Astronomy + MA v Egypt for 1012g + 15gpt (rational was gold to Greece will support their military efforts v Egypt and sig gpt should discourage them from immediately getting peace with Egypt)
Astronomy allows overseas trade with India -> wines for furs + 5gpt
-> lux to 0%

IT
Perth knight -> knight
Melbourne cathedral -> knight

3) 530AD

IT
Cairnes settler -> knight
Townsville temple -> harbour
IHC Market -> worker
Rockhampton deposes to Germany :( - this is not a feel good turnset

4) 540AD
Switch Rubyvale from market to cathedral -> shortrush

IT
Alice rax -> knight

5) 550AD
Make peace with Iroquois (1 city) for 36g and WM

IT
IHC worker -> temple

6) 560AD
Settle Oodnadatta on ruins of Frankfurt -> temple

IT
Greeks demand contact with Indians - not again - I refuse and fortunately they back down
Rubyvale cath -> worker
Greeks complete Cop

7) 570AD

IT
Melbourne knight -> knight

8) 580AD
Rush temple in Oodnadatta

IT
Canberra Heroic Epic -> knight
New Boston knight -> duct
Oodnadatta temple -> cathedral
Adelaide knight -> knight
Rubyvale workewr -> worker
Darwin knight -> knight

9) 590AD

IT
Brisbane knight -> knight
Perth knight -> harbour
Germans building Magellans

10) 600AD
nuttin much


Trade options
Germans have Banking and Navigation.
I was waiting for Greece to research something to get 2 for opportunity
Can sell astronomy to France but not much to gain (? wait until next lux deal is up)
India have salt for trade - may be worth tying it into a tech trade


War - still approx 12 turns in phony Egyptian war
Need war v Germans - I have been actively building up our knights
- we need to retake Rockhampton and raze Hannover and Nuremburg as minimum. Preferably inciting Bismark after buying on of his techs for gpt. As we are still rated weak compared with him I would be surprised if he didnt jump at the chance for war. Trade routes should be OK now we have astronomy

Builds
In SP game I would not have gone temple - cathedral builds rather lib - uni even though we are yet to self research. At some stage we will need these science improvements but right now we need to focus on a war to dent Germany who remain a very tough oponent

Re war with Germany

Earliest timing should be after workers complete road to Oodnadatta (3 turns). By lucky coincidence this is the number of turns for workers to complete 2 other roads on our border.
If Greece can research something by then I would suggest buy tech from Germany with gpt, trade to Greece for diff tech, sell to India for salt (so can upgrade a few muskets) and then provoke Bismark to declare to cancel our gpt deal.

Roster
tupaclives
Andronicus - just played
CommandoBob - UP (are you avail now)
Merlin - ON DECK

Roster
tupaclives
Andronicus - just played
CommandoBob - UP (are you avail now)
Merlin - ON DECK
Just downloaded the save. I will get a bit to eat and then examine it.

Take your time Bob, my internet connection is still not working and I can't play before next week. So skip me the next turn, if you finish soon.

edit: or I can play on the weekend, but post the game on monday.

End of Previous Turnset Stats:

Science: Printing Press, 28 turns
Treasury: 1649 gold, +188 gpt, 10.0.0
Cities:

Canberra (12) grows in 9999, vKnight in 4
Brisbane (7) grows in 13, vKnight in 10
New Boston (6) zero growth, aqueduct in 14
Oodnadatta (1) grows in 3, cathedral in 79
Perth (8) grows in 38, harbor in 4
Melbourne (8) grows in 2, vKnight in 3
Adelaide (8) grows in 11, vKnight in 9
Thats-A-Knife (6) zero growth, marketplace in 5
Tarzana (6) grows in 9999, aqueduct in 3
Cairns (8) grows in 10, vKnight in 2
Bundaber (3) grows in 18, temple in 8
Rubyvale (5) grows in 14, worker in 1
Townsville (5) zero growth, harbor in 1
Darwin (7) grows in 1, vKnight in 8
Bromme (6) grows in 5, market in 1
IronHorse City (5) grows in 10, temple in 1
Alice Springs (5) grows in 7, vKnight in 3
Nhullubuy (6) grows in 20, courthouse in 8

Military:

workers 019, 001 in production
archers 003
spears 002
swords 016
horses 001
pikes 007
knights 013, 007 in production
catapult 020
army 001
jags 001

Build List:

vKnight [7] (Canberra, Brisbane, Melbourne, Adelaide, Cairns, Darwin and Alice Springs)
aqueduct [2] (New Boston and Tarzana)
cathedral [1] (Oodnadatta)
harbor [2] (Perth and Townsville)
marketplace [2] (Thats-A-Knife and Broome)
temple [2] (Bunaber and IronHorse City)
worker [1] (Rubyvale)
courthouse [1] (Nhullubuy)


We are in a phony war with Egypt and expect to be at war with Germany soon.

MapStat 600 AD
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/tupac03/600AD_MapStatTrimmed.jpg

We are way behind in the culture race. Should we switch our temples to libraries?

This is sort of scary, don’t know enough on how to process it.

Flipping Chances 600 AD http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/tupac03/600AD_FlippingTrimmed.jpg

Can we prevent these cities from flipping?

For now, cities building military units keep building them. A city building improvements will follow that with another improvement.

Will get ready for war.

If Germany has any settlers left, it might be worthwhile to take Nuremburg, raze it and place troops on the mountains next to it to kill any settlers that may try to resettle Nuremburg.

Won’t be able to play all the turns at one time; may play and post as I go Hope to be done by Monday so that Merlin can play.

We cannot catch other civs in culture. Our way is the swords way. War with Germany should start on your turns bob. We don't want to lose another city on flip.

The best scenario would be to buy a tech for gpt from Germany and then have them declare. We should quickly raze Nuremberg and Hannover.

Agree
Only way to stop flips in our situation is to raze cities with overlapping cultural borders :devil:
Rockhampton needs re-capturing and Nuremberg and Hannover need razing.
Razing Berlin would be helpful too ...

Won’t be able to play all the turns at one time; may play and post as I go. Hope to be done by Monday so that Merlin can play.
Haven't been able to play any turns at all and won't be able to play until Thursday, so I must ask to be skipped. Time has been consumed by our church's Easter production, my high school class reunion (I keep the email list and the class database) and a birthday party for my mother-in-law. Plus some time with my wife (but not enough).

Roster
tupaclives - ON DECK
Andronicus - just played
CommandoBob - skip
Merlin - UP

OK, I got the game and my internet connection is up and running. I'll start to play now, but I'm not sure if I can finish all the turns today. Might be long, if the war starts...

Pre-flight check: Start to move troops to attack positions. Hurry temple in Bundaberg for 32g.

IBT: zzzz

Turn 1 (610AD): Bundaberg: temple->court, Rubyvale: worker->cat, Townsville: harbour->rax, Broome: market->worker, IronHorse: temple->rax.

IBT: zzzz

Turn 2 (620AD): Cairns: knight->knight, Alice Springs knight->pike. Banking is very expensive from Germany, so I try immediate steal, it fails and Bismarck declares war! Kill two spears in Rockhampton and we have it back -> temple. Kill an LB. Kill two spears in Hannover and we raze it! Gain two slaves and sink a caravel. Kill a knight. I buy saltpeter from India for 17gpt. (6-0)

IBT: Lose four troops on German attacks, kill one. (7-4)

Turn 3 (630AD): Melbourne: knight->knight, Tarzana: duct->market, Broome: worker->duct. Change Oodnatta to walls and rush. Kill 3 knights. Egypt will pay 36gold and 1gpt for peace, I make it. Greece have Chemistry and India have Banking. I buy Banking for 50gpt and 314gold from India. Buy Chemistry from Greece for Banking, WM and 609gold. Sell Chemistry to India for WM, 28gpt and 315gold. (10-4)

IBT: Kill four, lose four on German attacks. Most losses on our Nuremberg attack force. LB are bad against knights and pikes. (14-8)

Turn 4 (640AD): Canberra: knight->knight, Oodnatta: walls->rax, Perth: harbour->musket. Have to retreat our Nuremberg attack force. War weariness hits -> lux to 10%.

IBT: Kill four, lose two. (18-10)

Turn 5 (650AD): TAK: market->duct, Townsville: rax->LB, IronHorse: rax->LB. Kill 2 knights. Sell Banking to Egypt for 13gpt, 65gold and WM. (20-10)

IBT: Renew furs to ivory deal with France. We don't have to pay 5gpt anymore. Kill one, lose one. (21-11)

Turn 6 (660AD): Ruby: cat->cat. Kill a knight and LB. India knows Navigation! They will meet the other continent soon. I would like to make peace with Germany before selling contacts. (23-11)

IBT: Lose a cat that I misclicked last turn. Lose one, kill one. (24-12)

Turn 7 (670AD): Kill a spear near Oodnatta with eKnight->LEADER! No good wonders to rush, so build an army. Kill 2 LB's. Germans won't talk. WW hits->lux 20%. (27-12)

IBT: kill two, lose one. (29-13)

Turn 8 (680AD): Brisbane: knight->knight, Melbourne knight->knight, Cairns knight->settler, Darwin knight->knight, Nhullunby court->duct. Kill a musket, 4 LB's, knight, lose a sword. Germany still won't talk. (35-14)

IBT: Kill three, lose two. Get a LEADER defending, but lose it when our knight loses... (38-16)

Turn 9 (690AD): Adelaide: knight->knight. Kill a 2 knights, 2 LB's. No more Germans around. Push defences forwards. Germany still won't talk. They might find the other continent before we can sell the contacts. India has also PP and Economics, but haven't met the other continent. Sell Chemistry to France for Navi and WM, they had no money. With Navi we can trade with the other continent! Sell Chem to Egypt for incense, dyes, WM and 42gold. Lux to 0%. (42-16)

IBT: Kill one, lose one. Very little German action. We could try to raze Nuremberg. (43-17)

Turn 10(700AD): Canberra: knight->bank, Perth: musket->bank, Alice: musket->cat. Kill LB. Lose eKnight against redlined knight. Kill it with a sword. Decide to try Nuremberg. Start to move attack force. (45-18)

End here. Germans still don't talk. We might have a chance to raze Nuremberg. Continents still haven't met!

2) 520AD
Trade Greece Astronomy + MA v Egypt for 1012g + 15gpt (rational was gold to Greece will support their military efforts v Egypt and sig gpt should discourage them from immediately getting peace with Egypt)
Turn 3 (630AD): ... Egypt will pay 36gold and 1gpt for peace, I make it.

Did we break MA with Greece or had Greece made peace with Egypt?
- I note that they are currently at war

I agree with move to raze Nuremburg - it is still culturally pressing Bundenberg and Rubyvale

We have options for further trading
Greece will trade silks, 4gpt + 22g for Nav - not full price but ... another lux
India will sell Economics for 49gpt - if we have that and we get another leader Smith's would be nice

Currently military is average compared to Germany - I suggest we press on and crush them - do we want to try for alliances with France and perhaps India? - would mean committing to further 20 turns but lots of lux will help control WW provided we dont lose cities. If this is case we probably need to continue military builds (using short rushing of knights) to quickly get stronger than Germans then once the war turns and German cities start collapsing we can switch back to infrastructure. With a concerted effort short rushing knights I believe we can get a force to knock the Germans right back over the next 20 turns

We have about 6 pikes that could be upgraded to muskets to help our border cities (incl pike on gem mountain)

Note we are building cats in sev towns whicjh have rax - I suggest these be switched to knights. (or infrastructure if vote is to end this war soon)

Alice Springs is one of our least corrupt towns - I would be keen to grow it particuarly as it is built on a river

Cairnes building a settler - excellent - it should go on hill 1NW of wheat in that unclaimed territory south of Oodnadatta. This is RCP7 to Canberra and will therefore have same corruption as Tarzana and Thats A Knife.

Roster
tupaclives - UP
Andronicus - on deck
CommandoBob
Merlin - just played

Sorry guys, I thought I posted here, I can't play until the 18th, I'm at home right now (have been for 2 days) but I'm leaving to go back to Byron Bay in 2 hours.

If you guys don't mind a couple of days of waiting Andronicus and I could swap?

Did we break MA with Greece or had Greece made peace with Egypt?
- I note that they are currently at war

We broke the MA. My bad, I didn't check that we had MA. This makes things a bit more difficult. We did buy a tech from India for gpt after this, so we haven't lost our full reputation.

Sorry guys, I thought I posted here, I can't play until the 18th, I'm at home right now (have been for 2 days) but I'm leaving to go back to Byron Bay in 2 hours.

If you guys don't mind a couple of days of waiting Andronicus and I could swap?

I don't mind waiting. As we have been playing this by the three of us lately take your time. Or if Bob wants to play now. I cannot play during easter so I'll be able to play next tuesday at the earliest.

We broke the MA. My bad, I didn't check that we had MA. This makes things a bit more difficult. We did buy a tech from India for gpt after this, so we haven't lost our full reputation.

Ah well it has happened

P'raps I should have highlighted we had a MA - I tend to get a bit verbose and the important details can get lost

Alex is now furious with us - we may have problems with getting MAs and with getting backstabbed (not that it stopped Cleopatra from doing that to get out of gpt dael for Music Theory), but I dont think it affects our gpt trading

Sorry guys, I thought I posted here, I can't play until the 18th, I'm at home right now (have been for 2 days) but I'm leaving to go back to Byron Bay in 2 hours.

If you guys don't mind a couple of days of waiting Andronicus and I could swap?

I'll be away in Daylesford over Easter - I should be able to play Thur morning - if Bob wants to take a turn he can just post a "got it", otherwise I'll try Thur am. Looks like this may lie quiet over Easter.

Sorry guys but I wont be able to take this till after Easter so please skip me till 19/4

In that case, I'm back so I'll pick it up and we'll just play the usual roster after all.

Sorry about the delay guys I'll try and hook into it as soon as I can, but school starts again tomorrow so might not be till tomorrow arvo.

Pre-Flight -

Things look great! Micromanage a little for an extra 2gpt and some more shields here and there. Check trades and decide to buy Econ for 49gpt from India. Upgrade 5 pikes to muskets for 300gp.

IBT - First thing that happens is India signs a MA with Germany. Idiots! Oh well we ended up getting econ for free and India can't touch us. The bad news is we lose two luxuries and saltpeter. Hmmm... our income jumps by nearly +100gpt with all the Indian deals ending (+255gpt). Goodie!
Our elite sword in the open retreats a knight flawlessly, then kills another and then dies (1-1), Germany lose another knight flawlessly at Oodnadatta. (2-1)
Canberra riots so I scroll ahead and stop any other cities rioting.

Turn 1 - We get a couple of builds finishing, cairns goes to knights, Rockhampton goes to pikes.
Oh yeah and in the interturn someone made contact. Our monopoly is over forever :(
Greece has navigation and PP but not econ so I trade him econ for PP + WM, yes I know thats well below market value but we might as well get what we can anyway.

Set research to Mettalurgy at 1 scientist (could do 10 turns at 100% science but figure that we want to be shortrushing knights so the extra cash will be a boon)
We have an empty army, can't find any reference to it being saved for anything so I decide to make a second knight army, hope there are no objections.
Move our stack besides Nuremburg, move muskets and so forth around to better defend us. Now lests start the combat.
Well after our bombardment I realise I have no fast movers to pick off the redlined knights so I decide to play safety first and hold the attack for now.

IBT - I hadnt actually put the knights in the army yet as I hadn't noticed we had the army till after I moved the knights so they were all covered by a musket. He kills a LB, redlines a knight before dieing, then the first knights kills 2 knights on defence but is yellowlined (after promotion). (5-2)

Turn 2 - Kill a longbow in our territory. Our bombardment of Nurmeburg sees a whopping 1hp knocked off. Oh yay! :rolleyes:
This was probably an omen but I decide to charge anyway.
Our new knight army kills the first musket but is yellowlined, this reveals the yellowlined reg musket. I figure our elite sword has at least a par chance of winning a fight against a 2hp musket so he attacks and wins but no leaders. Of course it means that Nuremburg is now a smoking rubble!

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/4422/picture11pq.jpg

Use our original knight army to kill that fortified musket and is reduced to 3hp. Ouch! (9-2)
Capture a cat and decide to relocate our attack force toward Oodnadatta.

IBT - no attacks in the interturn

Turn 3 - switch rubyvale to a settler to claim the lands of nurmburg, won't leave our attack force there, instead abandon the area and will send muskets for escort when the time comes. Finally get our attack force on the road to Oodnatta for healing before attacking Berlin. Short rush some knights.
Kill a german settler pair and 2 german muskets in our territory (12-2)

IBT - retreat an elite knight at Oodnatta, kill a vet knight with a pike defending our cat stack. (13-2)

Turn 4 - Scrolling ahead I see that New Boston finishes its aqueduct this turn and now that I look at it, it seems like an awful waste. There are no free tiles for the new citizen to take and so the taxman that will be created, while paying for the aqueduct... well it means its just 100shields spent on nothing, i feel silly for not changing the build. Oh well, when we get rails there it will be 2 taxmen so we'll have +1gpt from that transaction. But 100shields for eventual 1gpt... I switch it to a bank.
Found Byron bay (set to walls) on the hill south of Oodnatta.
Kill the redlined elite knight but no leader. (14-2)
Reshuffling our cats into position will take some time.

IBT - Kill a knight on defence but lose an exposed LB and a musket in Byron. dang. (15-4)

Turn 5 - Kill two knights. The first was a simple redlined kill for no leader, the second was a full health vet knight vs full health vet knight.
Our mates health is on the left

4-4
3-4
2-4
1-4
1-3
1-2
1-1
1-0 we win. I was pretty stoked to be honest.
(17-4)

IBT - kill a knight on defence (18-4)

Turn 6 - kill 3 knights and a musket in our territory, but no leaders. (22-4) We can have 17 cats ready for the attack of berlin along with 2 knight armies and 11 knights so we should be set. Move our dudes out. They camp on the mountain near Berlin this turn, will be able to attack (with cat support) in 2 turns. Rubyvale finishes its settler and a musket and a pike are its escort.

IBT - lose a fortified musket in a forest (so defending at 6!) flawlessly to a lb, lose the elite sword it was covering to a knight and a lose a defender in rubyvale to another knight leaving just old *FP to defend it. No more attacks but i was not happy at all with those rolls. Really regretting taking the guys out of rubyvale for the escort... also 7 knights ride into our territory, the attack on Berlin might have to go on hold... (22-6)

Turn 7 - start bombarding everything in sight. Some creative work with the cats, some longbows and the few knights I can muster means that all cities are safe but our 2nd knight army is reduced to 1hp and in the open. That means I have to risk a musket to protect him. (25-6)

IBT - well my creative defensive placements stop us losing any big stacks of workers or cats but we lose a knight on defence (25-7). India starts newtons...

Turn 8 - check with Greece (india wont talk) and they are up democracy, mettalurgy and physics! Crap! Also with our killed rep I can't think how we are going to pry those techs away with no 2-fers available. Steals? Glad that problem will lie with Andronicus and not me. Start our defensive bombards around Oodnatta and Rubyvale. Well after a pitiful showing that failed to knock a single hp off anyone with our entire 24 cats I cry :cry:
Then on to takin risks (somethign I hate doing).

Well despite the horrific showing of our cats our actual troops perform amazingly. Our knights kill 5 german knights and 2 longbows for the combined loss of just 3hp! Magic stuff! The Aztec Gods (and the RNG ones too) are smiling on us!. (32-7) Our lands are clean save for one pike. However it will still be 2 turns till Berlin burns (well do we want leo's? Could be useful...)
Found Newcastle --> walls

IBT - Oh right, failed to notice that pike was on our 2nd gems. He pillages it, just lucky we werent trading any atm. Egypt and Greece make peace.

Turn 9 - Dunno what happened in the interturn but I take a look at F1 and see that we in fact need 20% lux to stop half our empire rioting! Last turn we were at 0%. Army moves next to Berlin. Clear 3 knights out (35-7)

IBT - Lose a musket on defence. We have precious few of those and while the war with Germany continues there are no more in sight as noone has ANY to trade and the source in our borders isnt secure enough to risk workers there. If berlin burns next turn tho, things could be a different story.

Turn 10 - well our might cat stack knocks a combined 3hp off the defenders of Berlin and destroys the Granary. Oh joy..
well lets hope the soldiers are up to the task, like before.
Grit my teeth and prepare for losses...
4/4 Vet knight wins against reg musket (1/4) (at least 5 defenders in there...)
4/4 vet knight loses against reg musket (2/3) (at least 6 defenders...)
4/4 vet knight retreats against reg musket (3/3)
4/4 vet knight retreats against reg musket (2/3)
4/4 vet knight retreats against vet musket (2/4)
4/4 vet knight wins against vet musket (3/4)
4/4 vet knight loses against reg musket (1/3) and promotes it (2/4)
4/5 elite knight retreats against reg musket (2/3)
4/5 elite knight retreats against reg musket (2/3)
4/5 elite knight retreats against reg musket (2/3)

Ummm... they have at least 4 more guys in there and we have an army... ahhh... this is not quite how I imagined the fight going...
I can just see our army losing this fight and then us losing every knight. I withhold the knight armies charge and decide to call off the attack. This was a disaster. Luckily only 2 knights died.
(37-9)
As well as the army we still have 1 4/5 elite left. As thats a combined 3 attacks and theres at least 4 dudes in there im not stupid enough to attack Berlin, however there is a redlined knight next to our stack. Decide 'what the hell?' and attack with the elite and finally pop a leader! Huzhuat will make us a trading company!
(38-9)
Rush Smiths in Cairns (city of culture :lol:).
At least some good came from this crapfest of a turn.
With more shortrushed knights and some more cats we can probably take Berlin in another 4-5 turns. Germany won't speak so that call will go entirely to Andronicus.

We are running at 8.0.2 with Mettalurgy in 31, several civs have it so maybe we could buy it. There are 3 cats in Rubyvale, do what you will but id probably send them to Newcastle, we have 3 more cats heading toward Oodnatta. There are knights in Oodnatta n the reason they are there n not with the stack is that they were healing after clearing guys.

Oh well, wasn't too happy bout that turn, had some bad luck but I still feel I should have done much better with a turnset that promised so much at the start.

Here's a picture of the front.

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/8663/picture20bo.jpg

Good luck Andronicus!

tupaclives - just played
Andronicus - UP
CommandoBob - On Deck
Merlin

and the save

Quick update

Its 840AD and we have Berlin with Leo's.
Peace with Germany and India, traded for metallurgy, physics, mil trad. Iroqois are no more, Germany, Greece and India are industrial.
Germany accepted large gpt deal - no-one else will.
Have not commenced libs so no researching yet - might try a steal from Bismark at appropriate time
Awaiting connection of salt and cav upgrade before irritating Bismark again ;)