View Full Version : mm12:Roman Challenge AWE


Mark1031
Mar 08, 2006, 10:01 AM
This is quite doable for Rome with Iron but quite hard and requires careful and efficient warmongering. The goal is to take over your continent with Pretaoreans and then build up an efficient empire that dwarfs your remaining opponents. I will play out a few starts to make sure we have Iron reachable and don’t start with more than 3 other civs on the continent.

Settings:

Emperor
Always war.
No Tech trading. I don’t think it’s possible without this.
2 Continents.
Epic speed.

Mark
Greebley
ThERat
Katank
TMcC

Greebley
Mar 08, 2006, 09:20 PM
I would be willing to try this if you would have me. Not sure my skills are up to this level yet, but I am willing to try.

ThERat
Mar 08, 2006, 09:25 PM
this might be very very tough, but no tech trading should give some bonus here. So, if you think I would be suitable, I am in

Mark1031
Mar 09, 2006, 07:11 AM
Great to have you two warriors. With no tech trading I think it is possible. I tried it with trading (really didn't think about it) and I had a huge empire but could't keep up in tech.

katank
Mar 09, 2006, 07:47 AM
Will you have me for this SG? AWE sounds like fun (perhaps in a masochistic way).

Epic is very good. We'll get more maneuver time.

colony
Mar 09, 2006, 09:31 AM
AWE? :eek: :eek:

Sounds very challenging. I'm interested, but doubt that I'm up to it considering the only AW game I played was as Persia on Prince, but if you don't mind having someone who might need some help occasionally...

Greebley
Mar 09, 2006, 03:53 PM
I guess my question is how well you feel your understanding of tactical warfare in Civ4 is. We could help with the game strategy, but probably not the minutae of when to attack and when not to minimize losses.

If you think you can get the kill ratios of 5 kills to 1 loss or better (on defense at least), and can handle at least monarch or Emp non-AW level play, then I for one would not object to you joining. If you don't think you meet the above, then my feeling is you would be better off trying some easier AW game first.

(Of course, this is just my opinion. Mark is the one to make any such decisions. The only reason I speak is that in another AW game we had one player that had 5x the losses of the rest of the players. That would be a sure loss here)

colony
Mar 09, 2006, 04:53 PM
I guess my question is how well you feel your understanding of tactical warfare in Civ4 is. We could help with the game strategy, but probably not the minutae of when to attack and when not to minimize losses.

If you think you can get the kill ratios of 5 kills to 1 loss or better (on defense at least), and can handle at least monarch or Emp non-AW level play, then I for one would not object to you joining. If you don't think you meet the above, then my feeling is you would be better off trying some easier AW game first.

(Of course, this is just my opinion. Mark is the one to make any such decisions. The only reason I speak is that in another AW game we had one player that had 5x the losses of the rest of the players. That would be a sure loss here)

Good points raised there, I should probably have explained more clearly. I've recently got comfortable on Emperor (almost always on Epic though), generally winning by Domination. If, as can sometimes be the case, I'm fighting against more advanced units then I do have a tendency to use a lot of suicide cats, and maybe more than I should, as well as being a bit too aggressive at times.

Edit: I'll start a practice game or 2 in a bit just to see how I do

ThERat
Mar 09, 2006, 04:54 PM
I agree here, this difficulty level leaves no room for experiments. You really need to know what you are doing, it will be a brutal game, trust me.

So, you should be able to assess yourself.

Mark1031
Mar 09, 2006, 05:13 PM
Preamble/4000BC: We have a very nice start (I tried a few:we will have Iron nearby and not too many opponents). Gold hill, 2 FP and lots of forest and a cow. Canít get better than that. I found in place. (see 2000BC pic). I begin research on wheel. Why you ask? Because I want pottery to cottage those FP. Forget the cows. That is 2 techs for 1 extra food and 2 shields. Bah. The biggest problem I have found in this type of game is rapid expansions effect on the economy. We must be able to keep up in research while expanding aggressively. Hopefully we will get substantial war income but if we donít play it very carefully we will bankrupt ourselves and stop our progress. We must very aggressively take out the other civs on our continent w/o going broke. Key techs for us besides IW are Monarchy to grow our cities, construction for cats, and CoLs to whip courts in newly captured far flung cities and curency. I would say we get out with not too much over our $$ limit of Prats and identify the metals to pillage first. If we can face only archers we wonít even need cats. This is the very best way to keep the kill ratio at what is needed, have only archers vs Prates.

3880: Hut give Mysticism, BW would have been better but well take it. It is on the way to Monarchy which we will need. Iíd love Stonehenge but too many other priorities in this game.

3600: Hut gives scout. Nice. Rome hits size 2 and instead of finishing the warrior I switch to worker. Send exploring warrior back for protection. I think we have a bit of a grace period of safety from Barbs but a wandering AI warrior will attack.

3480: Wheel->Pottery.

3440: Hut gives 32 gp

3360: Furs are in the South. Scout survives a wolf.

3000: Pottery and worker both finish. Start cottage on FP and continue warrior build. On to the metals. Research->BW.

2640: Meet Bismark exploring the tundra in the S.

2200: BW in Start IW for our army

2120: Barb Archers are afoot.

2040: Scout is wacked by barb archer.

2000: Summary: We will grow to size 5 in 6 turns and the gold should be hooked by then. IW due in 22 but will drop when we grow and work the gold. We have 3 lowly warriors and are working on a Rax. You could switch to a settler at size 5 and chop time it to finish with IW. When the Iron is hooked up you can chop some Praets and have at it. Please consider very carefully whether to keep a city as the costs will be critical. To start we should keep only the best sites. Good luck-youíll need it.

ThERat
Mar 09, 2006, 05:21 PM
nice start, good choice on cottages first, this will help big time. How many turns did you play and how many should we play during the first rotation?

I think once we have praets, we can go nicely after the AI and stall any progress they made.

Mark1031
Mar 09, 2006, 05:23 PM
Mark
Greebley-UP
ThERat-On Deck
Katank
Colony

Take 20 turns the first round. Colony I put you in. If you played AWP and play comfortably at Emperor that should be fine but it is up to you. We must be very careful though if the tide turns at a Waterloo for us we will not recover at this level.


My thoughts on this are that aggression is important. Replacing troops is not going to be as big a problem as funding them and getting new ones to the front. Loosing a couple of Prats 5 turns from home is no biggie. Loosing a stack 20 turns from home guarding Iron/copper allowing the AI to get Axes is more of a problem. I think the key will be keeping metals out of the AI hands as much as possible. As good as Prates are there is unacceptable attrition with axes. In the open field they are like 99% vs archers which can make for some great upgrading opportunities.

katank
Mar 09, 2006, 06:20 PM
We should keep it clear about how many cities we can afford. That type of thing can really cripple us. At least we are not playing no raze. That would be masochistic.

ThERat
Mar 09, 2006, 06:34 PM
I think we should raze the enemy cities for now, I don't think they would be valuable for us unless they are close to our borders (doubtful). And of course, I would send out prets immediately for oppression strategy.

We can then expand at our own pace to keep the economy in sync. There are more flood plains in the west that look pretty good for cottage gallore.

colony
Mar 09, 2006, 06:52 PM
Take 20 turns the first round. Colony I put you in. If you played AWP and play comfortably at Emperor that should be fine but it is up to you. We must be very careful though if the tide turns at a Waterloo for us we will not recover at this level.


I think I'm going to have to give this one a miss, simply due to lack of experience at AW games. That and my first practice game reminded me that I have a bad habit of losing my concentration in long wars, making some bad mistakes occasionally

T_McC
Mar 09, 2006, 09:11 PM
Well, if you need a fifth I would like to play.

:yumyum:

:confused:

ThERat
Mar 09, 2006, 10:08 PM
Mark1031 won't be so silly ;) to not let you join. I am pretty sure we can really use your contributions here, T_McC

Greebley
Mar 09, 2006, 10:37 PM
Well I played us to 1500 BC (20 turns).

I worked the gold square to get Iron Working more quickly (saved 7 turns).

I built Barracks, Worker, and started a Settler. This was helped by chopping two forests out of our bounds.

We beat a Barbarian Archer with our warrior (on Forest-Hill).

Decided to go for Meditation to start heading toward Monarchy. We do need Agriculture, however, I bet our second town will also have floodplains making Monarchy seem more important than Agri.

We have started Mining the Iron. We will be able to build Praetorians after the mine and a road on the Iron square.

It looks like there is good (floodplain) lands to the West. That is where I would consider putting our next town. I would place the town so we get both the sheep and the wheat with a border expansion.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/MM12_BC1500.jpg

ThERat
Mar 10, 2006, 05:28 AM
save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/MM12_BC-1000.Civ4SavedGame)

we got mysticism, priesthood, then agri and animal husbandry
finally went for monarchy

finished the settler, that founded Antium.
The location was selected for 2 reasons, less desert tile though some overlap with Rome and
behind a river in case it has to face attacks

build a praet with a forest chop, follwed by another, then went for another worker, and chopped a praet that will be done in the IT
Rome grew to pop 5

1 praet is going west while another is at home for defense, defeated a barb archer on defense with praet
there is a barb coming from the south threatening our fog buster warrior
we might want to put him into a forest, next player's choice

we should try and get a border expansion for Antium, but we need obelisk (I don't like it) or better a library for that

our land, Rome is at happy limit already, worker is connecting cows, we should then help to get cottages up for Antium
in the south there is nice land to settle, which we should do fast, Antium can grow fast and then go for settlers while Rome can build military
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/mm121000a.jpg

our western praet is at the doorstep of a barb city, however we can spot the German borders already, so please send him up there
maybe we send the second praet there as well since we now have another praet next turn
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/mm121000b.jpg

Mark1031
Mar 10, 2006, 08:08 AM
First welcome TMcC we have a great team for this. Maybe it will be too easy:rolleyes:. Second, Nice fast play. We are developing well. Having the FP cottaged all around will be very important. The faster we get to the key techs the faster we can swallow the continent. I like the second city as a cottaged settler/worker factory. There are furs to the S and with Monarchy we can grow nicely. I agree on forgetting the Barb city for now and focusing on taking down Germany. Capturing some workers for military roads should also be a priority. I know it is a bit early for thinking about this but we will need a very strong Navy in the future so strong coastal sites are important for cities.

Mark
Greebley
ThERat
Katank-UP
TMcC-On Deck

Mark1031
Mar 10, 2006, 10:56 AM
I looked at the save. 2 things. First Bizzy is Jewish. This is great we have a religion. dont forget to keep the holy city. Second I think we should chop the Oracle in Rome for Metal Casting. 1 forges will give happy and shields. 2 the prophet can be used for the shrine which I assume Bizzy will not have made yet.

katank
Mar 10, 2006, 03:08 PM
Turn 0 (1000): Looks good. We may want a few axes up too. Quite likely at least of our neighbors have bronze and attrition against axes with praets is not good.

Turn 1
(980): IBT Lost tundra hill warrior to barb archer. Didn't even see that archer there before.

Sorry guys.

Turn 3 (940): Praetorian killed a barb archer in Magyar flawlessly.

Turn 4 (920): IBT the same praetorian killed another barb archer on defense flawlessly and then kills

an archer in Magyar (4.2/8). Use up promotion and then heal. I decide to keep Magyar since it has three resources and is on fresh water with nice grassland around.

Turn 5 (900): Prate down south attacked by same archer that killed our warrior while in forest. Funny that he took my praet down to 7.1/8. Found another barb archer adjacent and kills it, still 7.1/8.

Terrific training for my Praetorians.

Turn 6 (880): Just realized this was epic. We can still build the Oracle with a few chops. Change research to Writing (due in 7 turns) and production in Rome to Oracle.

Turn 7 (860): Killed warrior with praet(7.2/8)

Turn 11 (780): St. Augustine decides we are puny. We shall remedy that.
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/153/wearepathetic00004od.th.jpg (http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wearepathetic00004od.jpg)
Moving in on Saxon. burn it.
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/9453/saxon00007rf.th.jpg (http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=saxon00007rf.jpg)

Turn 13 (740): Completed the Oracle and founded Confucianism in Antium. Two workers chopping together can get the wonder after all. Killed two archers in Saxon. (4.2/8 and 4.4/8) I see 4 archers in German city
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/1861/oracledforconfucianism00016db.th.jpg (http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oracledforconfucianism00016db.jpg)

Turn 14 (720): Spotted a pair of enemy axes.
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/6199/enemyaxes00001he.th.jpg (http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=enemyaxes00001he.jpg)

Turn 15 (700): Saw and killed a German archer in the open (6.1/8). Why the heck do we have a cover praetorian? Two levels of city raider gives better odds against cities and out in the open, Praets need no help in taking down archers.

Turn 16 (680): Saw the pair of axes come back. Retreat to plains hill across river.
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/8016/aahhhaxes00001uc.th.jpg (http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aahhhaxes00001uc.jpg)

Turn 17 (660): One praet kills an axe (2.9/8) on defense. The other axe runs away. Decide to convert to slavery and Confucianism to save money and get extra happy. Anarchy next two turns.

Turn 20 (600): More praets finished. Total of 6 praets and 2 axes now. Several praets have been trained up by barbs. We now have 2 CR3 praets. Those should be practically invincible. German axes are going to be a problem and we will get pushed around until our own axes make their way up. Another barb city southeast of Magyar can produce some extra training opporunities. Starting on library in

Rome to boost our research a bit but feel free to veto as there are no shields invested yet.

katank
Mar 10, 2006, 03:14 PM
Didn't see your post till I played, Mark. I still think Code of Laws is better for us, especially since we are organized. Cheap courthouses will helps us nicely.

T_McC
Mar 10, 2006, 03:23 PM
Good thing I didn't comment on the save I dl'ed about 5 minutes before Katank's turn was posted. :lol:

Courts and Forges are both nice, and we might as well have two religions to spread while waiting for the other continent to find us. I don't think we have any real use for a third, so Prophets should definitely be used on Shrines. Maybe we'll catch a break and Biz will build one for us?

Have to look at the save, but I figure the name of the game is suppression first, conquest second. So I'll do what I can to disconnect any and all metals I see. :)

Should be able to play tonight.

Mark1031
Mar 10, 2006, 03:48 PM
No rush I can't play till monday. I Like CoL too. A religion of our own is nice and it will take a long time to capture German city.

katank
Mar 10, 2006, 07:14 PM
The Germans definitely have a metal source that doesn't seem to be Berlin. In fact, Berlin is relatively isolated and once we get our current force there, I think we can take it. Heck, the CR 3 praets are even good against axes in a city just by their insane city attack bonus.

Definitely feel free to veto the library. In retrospect, I should also have been more aggressive about building settlers out of Antium and perhaps kept Saxon. Rex is still alive and kicking.

T_McC
Mar 10, 2006, 11:30 PM
MM12 (Shouldn't that be MMXII? Especially because we're Rome)

600 BC (0)
Swap Rome to a Granary, they're 1/2 price for us. Antium has just finished whipping a Barracks, so no switching there. I guess we can use military from wherever we can get it. Magyar is a really long way from our other cities. May have to capture the Barb city SE of it to make an easier connection to our core.

580 BC (1)
Antium finishes Barracks, starts Worker. I think most of our workers are going to be building roads for the next few hundred years.

Chop comes in to complete Granary in Rome.

560 BC (2)
Rome starts a Praet.

480 BC (6)
Notice that Berlin only has two Archers defending it. Notice this while I'm advancing with a couple of Praets and an Axe.

420 BC (9)
Stupid Biz whipped an Axe so I can't get good odds on the 2nd attack at Berlin. (And he had a 3rd Archer as well)

400 BC (10)
Back away from Berlin and wait for reinforcements. Start to attack a Barb city in the S that would fit in well with our other cities. Monarchy in and a revolution ordered.

320 BC (14)
There are a lot of units in Berlin now, so slip out the back door with our Praets in search of metals or softer targets.

280 BC (16)
Find the German Copper (and lots of Axes), and whack an Archer/Settler pair to score a free worker.

240 BC (18)
Pillage the German Copper, hope not to get whacked by an Axe.

220 BC (19)
Lose a City Raider III Praet on the Copper tile. Capture Uzbek from the Barbs, it comes with Furs, Horses and Sheep.

200 BC (20)
Burn Cologne, then realize I attacked in the wrong order and we're going to lose another Praet next IT.

Pictures to follow.

T_McC
Mar 10, 2006, 11:43 PM
Our new city:

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/6451/uzbek1pa.jpg

Another lux is always nice, and the city will have decent production with a couple of Hills and the Horse tile.

Rome is building a settler, I was thinking for here:
http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/8939/nextcity3ju.jpg

Another good production site with the Iron and the Hills, plus the Pigs to feed it. There should be room for an economic city to the east of the blue dot, particularly if we find seafood over there.

Germany, as we see it:
http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/7967/alemania2kp.jpg

The blue circle is where Cologne used to be, and the red circles are suppression forces. I didn't see any Swords so Biz may not have Iron. Still quite a few Axes running around.

Our Praets got all screwed up with City Raiders defending against Barbs and then not being able to join in an attack. We should be able to sort it out a bit on the next turn set and pick a target. We may even want to research Archery to get all the Praets out of city defense duty.

No beakers have been put to Metal Casting, I doubt we really want to wait that long for a tech. The Court in Magyar can be whipped once the city grows to size 3. Magyar is a cottage dream with all that food available, so the next couple of cities can be heavier on production.

katank
Mar 11, 2006, 09:49 AM
Ouch, I should have mentionned the fact that civ makes the highest experience unit defend first if the odds are otherwise equal. This means that moving a CR3 praet along with an unpromoted one onto a tile threatened by axes would surely get the CR3 whacked.

Oh well. We probably need more axes and also to shorten our supply lines. Is the road nearly finished? I had a pair of workers working on the mighty Via Katankus west.

Greebley
Mar 12, 2006, 06:55 PM
Mark, You got this game?

ThERat
Mar 12, 2006, 07:56 PM
Mark said he can only play monday, since he is the 'leader' of this SG, I didn't say anything. However, for a SG, it is important not to lose momentum and a skip/swap would have been more appropriate...

Mark1031
Mar 12, 2006, 08:48 PM
I will get to this first thing Monday. For the next month or so I will not be able to play on weekends but it should not result in more than a 72 hr turnaround so I don't want to start swapping and skipping for it.

Greebley
Mar 13, 2006, 09:32 AM
Ah ok. Sounds fine to me.

Mostly I was posting to make sure you knew you were up.

Mark1031
Mar 13, 2006, 09:43 AM
Pre: OK we are in AW and not producing a single unit. Why is Rome making a settler when we have many high food cities that could do this. Rome is a Production powerhouse and can grow. Switch Rome to Prat. I see no need for axes as Prats seem to defend against axes anyway in a stack. I guess they are cheaper. We have way too many CR promotions. If we were going to pillage first then we need the shock promotions for axe defense. We have a woodsman axe outside Berlin. Send him exploring the forests but without support he will probably be lost. We are in retreat from the copper site and will loose a woodsman 2 Prat IT. Research to math on to construction for cats. We will need them and do not have time to build forges.
Antium is building a granary although it has tons of food. It can do both commerce and production so I donít see the need to be whipping this city which was already done. I am generally averse to the whip except in cities with no production potential. I will let the Granary finish anyway as there is a lot put into it already.

IT: Loose Wood 2 to axe producing no damage. Our wounded CR3 Prat is in retreat. Axe beats barb warrior no damage and takes shock. I would really like a bunch of shock troops. Until all the axes are gone.

180: Barb archer appears delaying by Antium delaying Prats move to the front for training. I will promote all Prats to shock until the axes are gone.

160: Uzbeck is out of resistance and starts a Rax. I hope it picks up religion for expansion. Barb state appears N of Myagar. Perhaps we wonít need settlers.

140: Continue retreat. Spot Frankfurt N of Berlin. Shist BiZ has Swords!

120: Shock Axe vs CR2 Axe looses at 78%. Novice Prat finishes the job and will promote to shock.

100: Rome Prat->Prat. We need libs but I feel if we donít get the military momentum going we are doomed. Antium Garnary->Axe. Now I see a chariot. So he has Horses. Switch Antium to spear. I hate fast units. Axe/Spear pair approaching Myagar.

80: Now see horse archers. Copper guard is threatened by 2 axes and retreats. We may have to pull back and defend. Myagar court->Library.

60: Continue retreat. Shock prat beats shock axe. Shock Prat beats spear.

40: Retreat

20: Retreat

1AD: This is not the best of times for Rome. We let Biz get all the need resources and he is coming at us. There is a settler in cue for Rome that could net us another city but I think we have lost the momentum. We need to assemble some pillaging teams that will need spears and shock Prates or axes. And a medic. We also need enough troops to hold the line. I would chop some troops from Rome and let it grow. Maybe finish a settler and take the coastal site TMcC suggested although I would be tempted to move it 1 tile E to the tundra hill to get the pigs and Iron immediately.

10-turns ea.

Greebly ĖUP
TheRat- On Deck

Gotag
Mar 13, 2006, 11:00 AM
Lurker Comment:

Shist BiZ has Swords

Actually this should be good for you. In my own play with Rome, I'm always happy to give away IW so the AI builds swords. With Prats in play you want to face swords rather then Axes.

Sadly the AI in my experience doesn't handle this particular issue very well. Now that Swords are available to them (hooked up Iron maybe as IW is a petty early tech at Emp lvl) they will prolly churn out the Swords and your Prats will own hard. Given this, I would deny copper before iron as you don't want them going back to Axes.

Best of luck with this, you're going to need it!!

Gotag

katank
Mar 13, 2006, 01:02 PM
Interesting take, Gotag. That is something to consider.

Technically, with iron online, they can still produce axes but just they'll be less likely to since they can build swords as well.

Best is probably to cut off all metals. Chariots and HAs are easy prey for prats.

We'll just have to pray that no one has ivory or we are really dead.

Greebley
Mar 13, 2006, 02:44 PM
I got it and will see what I can do. Agree that cutting the Copper then Iron seems best if we can do it.

ThERat
Mar 13, 2006, 04:57 PM
IMHO we wasted crucial time on some infra and taking Magyar instead of going for Germany all the way. Their iron/horses must be north or west of Berlin. Get some pillaging units up and running, esle we are doomed. This is emperor difficulty and we will never be able to handle more than 1 Civ in AW.

Greebley
Mar 13, 2006, 09:21 PM
We were attacked by a 3 German Axe, 2 Horse, and 3 Sword. I managed to keep the losses down to 2 Praetorians at the cost of losing 2-3 cottages due to pillaging.

I really pushed at building Praetorians with workers chopping. Note that several of the units have move-to's that I forgot to cancel. You will want to check the units movements in the preturn.

I did finish the one settler for a town to the south of our capitol. It is not a bad town with Wheat, Pigs and Iron. It is currently located where I thought we should build it.

After the initial attack things have been quiet. I sent 3 Praetorian to try to find the Copper and Iron. Note that I am trying carefully to move so I am not next to any town as that seems to trigger attacks. In addition an Axeman to the North has found the Horses and can pillage next turn.

We completed Math and started Construction.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/MM2_AD200.jpg

T_McC
Mar 13, 2006, 09:44 PM
If we have Horses hooked up we should try to send a Chariot (preferably a Medic) with the pillaging crew so we don't have to wait a turn in place to pilage.

Greebley
Mar 13, 2006, 10:04 PM
Good thought. I think we can build Chariots.

ThERat
Mar 14, 2006, 12:19 AM
ok, will play tonight

hope we can pillage iron. Btw, why do you think they still have copper? I thought iron is sufficient to produce axe/swords/spears.

ThERat
Mar 14, 2006, 06:20 AM
save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/MM12_AD-0300.Civ4SavedGame)

Pre-Turn
in case we wonder where the iron is, it can be seen in the uncovered fog near Frankfurt, will go and try to take it out
Antium grows like weed, slow growth

IT well the pillager axe is killed by 2 archers

1. 210AD
beat archer next to Hamburg on hill and climb it
found Cumae at the proposed spot

2. 220AD
pillage mine for 14gold
move stack of doom into German land

IT :lol: 3 German HA die at the hands of our swords near Hamburg

3. 230AD
SOD moves closer to Berlin

4. 240AD
stack arrives at berlin that is defended by 2 archer and 1spear

5. 250AD
attack barb city of vandal defeating 2 archer, leaving 2 more
berlin is now defended by 4 units
game crashes, how nice, I have this issue of overheating often, cool computer

move stack over the river so odds will be better to attack

6. 260AD
start attack, take out archer, lose praet at 75% odds
take out spear, lose spear at 91% odds :wallbash:
defeat archer and HA
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/mm12260.jpg
raze capital as we could never hold it

whip library in Magyar since it is unhappy already

defeat 2 archers and take Vandal

7. 270AD
pillage a mine in neutral territory for 8gold, move stack onto hill to heal, promote axe the medic

8. 280AD
2 HA appear at Magyar
use 2 praets to cover a worker

9. 290AD
now archer + HA appear at Vandal
take out HA at Vandal and tkae out both HA at Magyar
spot a German settler trio but our stack is healing and can't really attack

10. 300AD
healing turn
started to mine Antium since it is too food rich and can't grow due to happiness
we have a suppressor at the copper, stack should take out Frankfurt and the iron

our western towns, workers are connecting the new city
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/mm12300a.jpg

next player can decide whether to attack the settler trio, we would gain a worker
note the iron next to Frankfurt
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/mm12300b.jpg

Mark1031
Mar 14, 2006, 10:12 AM
Nice work taking out the capitol. They have another Iron besides Frankfurt as that Iron was not hooked up when I first saw swords. It may be difficult to pillage and guard all the metals. Maybe we should just raze cities and forget trying to pillage at this point.

T_McC
Mar 14, 2006, 11:26 AM
Looked at the save:

Chariots are the cheapest unit we can build for MP, and a round or two of those would get all of our Praets on the front lines and probably allow us to put another pop in each of our three significant cities.

I guess we'll want to keep Hamburg since it is a Holy city. We can pillage the Gold tile while we pass by to burn Munich. I think Biz may only have one more significant city besides the ones we can see (the city with the Iron).

No reason not to whack the settler group. I read the terrain to be that not even a HA can reach that spot on the next turn (from anywhere we can see) so we shouldn't be in danger of losing a Praet.

When Uzbek's borders pop we'll want to camp the Ice furs and mine the Hill furs. We only need 1 fur and a 3-hammer tile is worth more to the city than a 3-trade tile.

It would help to settle/capture another lux, but the spots for claiming Silver are rather ugly. Hopefully Biz has something under the fog for us.

Forbidden Palace right around where Berlin was? We should be reaching the requisite # of cities soon and won't have too far to go on the Courthouse requirements. Once we do eliminate the Germans we have a couple of cities that can produce settler very quickly, so raze-and-replace should be pretty painless.

Greebley
Mar 14, 2006, 11:28 AM
Ya, I think they have a number of metal resources as well and should go for cities. I think we should continue to concentrate on military until we are fairly sure we can destroy them. There is also the possibility of another civ that can reach us (or even on our own continent if they were far enough away and Germany blocked them from getting to us). I would rather destroy Germany before we meet the next civ.

ThERat
Mar 14, 2006, 04:58 PM
agree we should go after Munich first. We should take beat the Germans hard before we take Hamburg, we need to keep it as the holy city, that I agree.

Munich also has the horses, so that would weaken them. And true, get some chariots to free some praets.

katank
Mar 15, 2006, 12:13 AM
Hi guys,

A bunch of stupid moves on the part of the AI worked to allow me to capture both Hamburg and Frankfurt. This included a holy city and 5 workers. Add to that the worker from the settler group, that's 6 total workers captured. I have also wiped out many of their units piecemeal. Munich has roughly 4-5 units on defense and we can move on them soon. Problem is they have catapults.

BTW, we met Mali.

Preturn: Wow, we need to get the conquests rolling. Decided to take on the settler trio across the river. (1.9/8) for our praet and (3.4/5) for our axe killing a HA and spear respectively. Captured a worker who needs escort back. Had a praet climb the hill next to Vandal to prevent its occupation by an enemy sword/archer combo.

Turn 1 (310): Killed an exposed enemy swordsman by attacking from the hill (1.6/8) and an archer (5.0/8).

Turn 2 (320): Killed a barb archer in the south (5.1/8).

Turn 3 (330): The gutsy Roman army moves forward, risk bivouacing in the open in order to get speedier attack.
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/4015/gutsy00005px.th.jpg (http://img63.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gutsy00005px.jpg)

Turn 4 (340): IBT a German axeman dies to our shock praet (0.5/8). Whew, close one. Construction came in, start on Currency.

A golden window of opportunity opens up as the Germans mysteriously leave Hamburg mostly open (the top axe is gone which could have caused great grief). Something like this is too good to pass up. Attack next turn.
http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/1842/windowofopportunity00006wy.th.jpg (http://img47.imageshack.us/my.php?image=windowofopportunity00006wy.jpg)

Turn 5 (350): IBT we meet a Mali scout and declare war on Mansa Musa.

At Hamburg. Attack! Prat goes in and is reduced to 3.2/8. Another one flawlessly wins against an archer. A sword in Hamburg took our shock raider prat down to 1.9/8. Then another prat kills the HA nearby. Hamburg captured for 155 gold.
http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/7903/hamburgcaptured00000ig.th.jpg (http://img47.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hamburgcaptured00000ig.jpg)
We wipe out the Mali scout with nary a scratch. Spotted Malinese borders southwest of Hamburg.

Turn 6 (360): More unit moves.

Turn 7 (370): IBT killed a German HA on defense (5.8/8). Attacked a German CG archer in a forest (5.8/8). Very juicy city of Frankfurt with 5 workers!
http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/5056/juicy00004vh.th.jpg (http://img47.imageshack.us/my.php?image=juicy00004vh.jpg)
Have you ever seen something like that? Not too heavily defended either.

Turn 8 (380): IBT killed a German HA on defense in Frankfurt (5.2/8). Killed a German HA and a spear on offense (0.8/8) and (6.1/8) respectively.
The Germans have mostly evaced Frankfurt?!:eek:
http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/4408/evenbetter00001iy.th.jpg (http://img55.imageshack.us/my.php?image=evenbetter00001iy.jpg)

Turn 9 (390): Attacked and captured Frankfurt (8/8, 3.2/8) for healthy good boost and 5 workers!
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/1807/frankfurt00001ds.th.jpg (http://img63.imageshack.us/my.php?image=frankfurt00001ds.jpg)

Pillaged a mine and farm at Munich.

Turn 10 (400): Units regroup near Munich to prepare for assault. Praet near Frankfurt kills a sword

(5.0/8).

ThERat
Mar 15, 2006, 08:26 AM
great progress, unfortunately we face another opponent that is quite big taking the score into account. maybe they supplied Byz with iron?

Mark1031
Mar 15, 2006, 08:40 AM
Very nice progress. With Mansu around we need to just push on with military. I'd not worry too much about the economy but pump cats and Prats until we are broke. Notice Mansu has the Parthenon in Dynene so we should keep that to help pump leaders. I really think my first thoughs on pillaging are wrong. with CR prats just rolling over cities is obviously the way to go. The quicker we clear our continent the quicker we can build up our large empire for the next phase.

katank
Mar 15, 2006, 09:20 AM
I've been doing that. I pillaged a mine and farm to try and reduce Munich's ability to produce catapults. Those could be painful for us. The cottage nearby I decided not to pillage as those require time to grow back.

Mansa does not seem overly aggressive towards us. We should finish off the Germans when the first few catapults arrive in time for an assault on the Mali.

I think we lost a bit of momentum initially but we should be able to get it back.

T_McC
Mar 15, 2006, 02:52 PM
400 AD (0)
Rome has an unproductive eater due to WW, and not having a 2nd MP. Cat switched to Chariot. Antium to a 1-turn Chariot. Magyar is losing shields to unhappiness, Uzbek needs some worker attention to mine a hill, Cumae still has no MP, Vandal appears to have just been whipped (no, it wasn't. Just a weird coincidence), Hamburg comes out of resistance next turn but has no infrastructure left intact. Frankfurt will come out of resistance in three turns.

Uhh ... don't know about the damn the economy, full speed ahead approach. We'll be at 0% research pretty soon. We're losing 16 gpt even without the two German cities coming out of resistance, and there's only one more German city to plunder. But that's more due to # of cities than # of troops, and it is rather critical we take a bite out of Mansa before he comes up with Maces so we do have to press onward. Not very likely to attack Malinese territory on this round, seeing as how we don't know where he is yet. We'll want Crossbows to counter Malinese Maces (which they'll have sooner or later). That will require backtracking to Archery first. Hopefully Currency will perk up the economy sufficiently because it would currently require 46 turns for us to research Machinery. :doh: And I have a feeling no one will want to consolidate and build infrastructure.

We need 5 other bodies to get all of the Praets off of MP duty. Ivory is available W of Munich but I can't see building another city at this point. It also looks like we're going to have a wide front vs. the Malinese unless the body of water N of Munich is really ocean instead of a lake. Might as well find out on this round.

Actually, it would have been nice to know where we met the Malinese scout. I'm assuming N of Frankfurt, but if we start marching troops up the wrong fork it's game over. So a rather strong reason to send out a couple of scout troops first.

410 AD (1)
Well, that was a lot of verbiage about nothing. Malinese borders to the W of Hamburg. This is going to get real interesting real fast. Already a City Raider Axe is two turns from attacking Hamburg. Oh, and a barb city popped up around where Berlin used to be.

Kill three resistors in Hamburg and bury their bodies in the foundations of the new city walls.

I think Munich has to go now, so even though we took a Cat shot last round continue with the stacks near the city.

Units from Frankfurt start to move towards Hamburg, but there are a lot of rivers and not very many roads. If the Malinese want the city we're not in a position to resist much. I'm hoping we have caught them on the extreme end of their empire and will have a few turns to breathe.

With Hamburg out of resistance, we're losing 23 gpt at 50% science.

420 AD (2)
Kill a Barb Archer and try to move a couple of more Praets to the front. The Barb cities are going to make road building more difficult. We are also facing a Barb attack at Frankfurt.

Mali Axe moves next to Hamburg, but across the river and into Walls. Shouldn't be a real threat although we do have two units there now. Of course, the wrong one will defend ...

430 AD (3)
Just a little pillaging, so the Mali threat isn't real for a few turns.

At Munich win vs. two Archers and then do zero damage to an HA. Will wait to heal for another turn and have another go.

440 AD (4)
Defeat a couple of units and burn Munich. Biz is still alive.

The Malinese are directly on our W border, so at least we know where to send the troops.

460 AD (6)
Whack a Barb and a Mali Axe. Units are congregating in Hamburg to push towards the first visible Malinese city. The second group is slowly being assembled in the east, along with the road network. I'm not going to go looking for Bismarck just to knock off 1 unhappy from WW. He's irrelevant now.

490 AD (9)
Move out SOD #1 towards the SW Malinese city. No expanded borders, so it should be easy pickings for Mark on his first turn.

The 2nd SOD is not yet formed.

500 AD (10)
The MM of Antium is weird because I'm waiting for a mine to finish. Tile assignment designed to stagnate growth.

Spoke too soon. The SOD climbs a hill and can't see the Malinese city. Bad medicine, this means +40% cultural defense. We also spot the last(?) German city.

Pictures next post.

T_McC
Mar 15, 2006, 03:03 PM
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/4571/westmm123qt.jpg

We have a Great Propet active. There's really nothing else useful to do with him besides building the Confucian shrine, but I leave it unmoved in case anyone else has a sneaky plan. I think we would have had to forego Masonry to trick the Prophet into researching Civil Service for us.

The Courthouse can in Frankfurt can, and should, be whipped. We just scored a forest chop last turn to reduce the body count on the whip to 1. I am tacitly assuming the only thing north of Frankfurt are Barbarians. Next player may not be so willing to boldly assume.

The road network will complete soon, but it's still a hell of a long way from our core to the front. Nothing much we can do about that except try to develop Uzbek and Vandal to add to our troop production. Vandal does not have Barracks so I was building Cats there.

I think we stumbled across the city with the Parthenon in it, as those look like 60% cultural borders. If we have, that stack may not be enough to get the job done on the first try. There is another Malinese city in the general direction of the arrow.

The German city is in the ellipse. So they still have a metal. :lol:

Currency will be worth ~10 gpt to us, so we're still going to be reliant on city sacking to research at a reasonable pace. The shrine will be more useful to spread the religion (and happiness) without missionaries than as an immediate economic boost.

Nubian is actually in a really nice spot for us, so whenever we think we can afford another city we should snag it. It would also be useful to snag to keep it from spawning pillagers in the interior of our territory.

T_McC
Mar 15, 2006, 03:41 PM
One other thing: There's a catapult in Magyar that is due two promotions (it just made it back into the city). That could be the Medic for the 2nd stack.

katank
Mar 15, 2006, 04:39 PM
Why are we building chariots instead of catapults? Catapults are far more useful. I thought we more or less decided to abandon the pillage everything idea.

T_McC
Mar 15, 2006, 05:07 PM
Why are we building chariots instead of catapults? Catapults are far more useful. I thought we more or less decided to abandon the pillage everything idea.
Because we need a body, any body, to serve as MP. Surprisingly, Cats do serve as MP because they can attack ... but we don't want Cats to be pulling MP duty because they are useful with our city-razing stacks. We built Chariots because that was the cheapest thing we could build. (And even if could build Archers I prefer a 2-move unit for warm-body duty.)

So don't look at it as: Why do we have all these Chariots? Look at is as: How did all those Praetorians that were guarding cities end up on the front lines? :)

So effectively those Chariots are ~1/2-price Praetorians.

And with our economy the way it is, it is well worth a warm body to get as many hands in the fields as possible. Spending the 31 shields to work another tile at Rome or Antium should be well worthwhile.

We do still have a Praetorian on BarbWatch in the SE. I noticed him only enough to forget to replace him with a Chariot (or Spear, whatever floats your boat).

katank
Mar 15, 2006, 09:39 PM
That makes sense. Chariots are indeed great for barb control and city happiness filler.

I did find all the prats guarding cities a bit strange too. Good thing you remedied that now.

T_McC
Mar 16, 2006, 08:32 AM
If we use the prophet to build the Confucian shrine we should also build a monastery in one of the Confucian cities so we can build missionaries. It is really painful to have to build a Library to get a border expansion in our new cities and at least a couple of the cities (Uzbek and Cumae) really need access to 2nd ring tiles to be useful. We could build Obelisks, but missionaries are only a few hammers more and provide a happy and a gpt in addition to the cpt.

The faith will spread without missionaries but I would only count on that to the extent that we'll have to build less missionaries than cities, rather than expecting the faith to spread to the "right" cities first. A monastery in Antium is even semi-useful for research given the amount of trade the city can produce.

Mark1031
Mar 16, 2006, 10:13 AM
OK Economy a mess, far flung cities costing a fortune i.e. everything is going perfectly. I see a line of cats headed for the front. This is good as I don’t want to throw Prats away into Mali culture. With Ivory out there what I fear the most is War Elephants which could hurt us. Uzbek has a Rax but is making a library. No way, switch to axe. I don’t like our back line defenses as Frankfurt has only a spear defending and would be lost to a barb axe. Rush the court in Frankfurt and divert a Prat over that way. One thing about razing everything is that we will end up with lots of Barbs. I am not a huge fan of the chariot MPs. One has to assume barb Axe attacks and for this Prats or axes are best. Spears in the back lines are not much use as barbs do not bring horses in my experience but could be of use in the front lines for Elephants. Switch Antium to axe for MP.

IT: Barb axe threatens at Hamburg.

510: Much as I hate infrastructure at this point I ready the workers to chop a market in Rome when currency comes in. Build the Kong Mao. Not much to chop but Antium will need a market also ASAP. Rome Prat->Prat. Move our SoD toward what is hopefully the last German city. We can hopefully take it w/o cat support.

520: Our SoD removes the archer guarding german iron and reveals Essen. Guarded by 2 archers and a spear. Should be no problem for our battle hardened Prats.

530: Raze Essen taking minor damage and Biz is gone. We are still registering WW. Maybe it takes a turn to go away. Whip Court in Hamburg.

IT: Currency comes in and we are @ -16gpt.

540: Research to Metal Casting. Switch Rome to Market but not Antium. I have 3 chops going and market will give Rome 5 gpt and 1 happy.

550: Step up on a hill and see Djenne 4 defenders but 60% Culture. I need the cats and they are a few turns away. Also I want to keep this city as it has the Parthenon which will be useful.

560: Moving

570: Move up on Djenne

580: Begin bombardment. Mansu is strangely quite. It is making me nervous.

590: Bombard and move troops.

600: Bombard Djenne15% and am tempted to go but save the fun for Greebley

Summary: We have fresh troops approaching the front. Once we have a stack with 4-5 cats things should go much quicker. I didn’t split up our stack as I want to be sure to take cities quickly, we could probably do that now although we could still use some more cats.. At this point I think we have enough Prats and could begin to go for some infra in our big cities. Could still use come cats and if war elephants appear we will need some spears at the front.

Note to Greebly: please keep Djenne, it has the Parthenon. For leaders, with the large empire we will have, I would try to save them for well timed GA’s.

katank
Mar 16, 2006, 11:04 AM
Problem with having prats is that I think they'll often defend rather than spears due to same strength rating. We want to get the spears to defend though for less costly attrition.

Let's hope for no Mali eles. Shock eles stomp all inf into the ground before pikemen.

Mark1031
Mar 16, 2006, 11:27 AM
So maybe what we really need is level 3 prats with mounted promotion.

Greebley
Mar 16, 2006, 02:42 PM
Ok, I got it. I will keep Djenne.

ThERat
Mar 16, 2006, 05:02 PM
I would not stop mil production until we are sure we can take all their cities. AI's are capable of churning out a lot of units in AW. I rather we have too many units than too few. We need to take over our whole continent as soon as possible.

katank
Mar 16, 2006, 08:58 PM
True. Especially since this is Emperor. The production is crazy.

Greebley
Mar 17, 2006, 12:06 AM
Turn 190 (600 AD)
Things look good enough. Hit enter...

Turn 191 (610 AD)
We defeat the 4 defenders without loss
Captured Djenne (Mansa Musa)

Turn 192 (620 AD)
We lose an Axeman to a Barbarian Archer and a Praetorian on a hill to an Axeman. We also win two.

Units that need healing are remaining in Djenne. Gathering the rest to go for the nex town.

Turn 193 (630 AD)
We defeat 3 Barbarian archers to Capture the Barbarian town of Nubian. It is in a nice spot filling in a gap so I keep it.
We also defeat a Malinese Catapult that attacks our SOD.


Turn 194 (640 AD)
Lose another Praetorian to an Axe. The Praetorian was in forest this time. My RNG luck has been really bad tonight (I played another SG as well)

[Turn 195 (650 AD)
Lovely. This round we lose an Axe on a hill to a Skirmisher We also successfully defend vs a Mainese Elephant in the forest. Yep Mali has them.

Lower the defense of Timbuktu

Turn 196 (660 AD)
Attack on Timbuktu.

We sacrifice 3 Catapults attacking first. and then attack with our Praetorians.
We lose three! Praetorians on attack even though we have knocked the city defense down and injured all the units and clearly have a superior attack strength. One axe at 3.5 takes 3 Praetorians to kill. The other loss is vs an injured Skirmisher.

Because of this we do not take the town this turn. Fortunately, though the previous player gave me enough Praetorians to handle even the attrociously bad luck I have been getting.

Turn 197 (670 AD)
We kill the final 3 weakened units. This will weaken Mansa!
Captured Timbuktu (Mansa Musa)

Turn 198 (680 AD)
Grr... Axeman loses to: Barbarian Archer (1.80/3)

Turn 199 (690 AD)
Judaism has spread: Nubian

Turn 200 (700 AD)
Attack another town that was recently formed (no border expansion. Even though I use a cat to weaken an Axe beforehand, we still lose another Praetorian (we had about a 75% or so to win). This means we can't raze the town.

Notes:
I haven't had RNG luck this bad in a very long time. This is also combined with a previous SG where 4 units failed to kill a single pillager (with all attacks above 50% and one almost guaranteed). I expected some losses, but we got 3x what we would have lost normally. I was not taking risky attacks. It is really frustrating when it happens. :mad: :hammer2:

On the plus side we still have Praetorians left. We started with a goodly number.

Some 4 odd Praetorians were looking ahead a bit. I do not think they are ready to really advance though and should stay to help guard.

Two major core cities of Mansa are gone. IIRC, Timbuktu was the Capitol for Mali.

I went with TMcC's idea of building Missionaries in a town. They are for border expansions in towns that would otherwise take forever to build a library. This is a few of the towns.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/MM12_AD700.jpg

ThERat
Mar 17, 2006, 12:31 AM
so much about enough praets. Bad RnG seems to be rampant in Civ4. Too bad but great job taking the 2 best towns Mali had (I hope at least).

Looking at the score, it seems they suffered badly and if we can manage to take out ivory then we should be ok.

Got it and will play late tonight / early morning

Gotag
Mar 17, 2006, 06:24 AM
Lurker Comment

You may want to consider moving your capital unless you think you can build Versaille.

You didn't mention map size and I've not played a game at Emp/Epic with no tech trading so not sure how the AIs who are unknown are advancing. You've not mentioned any wonders being built in unknown lands so maybe you're ok? Hate to think of a happy Ghandi or Vic, cottaging like crazy and ready to attack your Prats with Jedi.

Great game so far!

Gotag

katank
Mar 17, 2006, 06:40 AM
Nice set of turns despite the bad RNG.

Locating ivory is a priority now. There still seems to be a pretty culturally mature town to the west in one of the screenies. Once we take that out, Mali should be fairly dead.

Move capital unless Versailles? We can just build the Forbidden Palace and we'd be ok. Versailles is for another continent with an engineer if we can.

After that, we run state property.

Greebley
Mar 17, 2006, 09:09 AM
We can see one unconnected Ivory to the far west. That is probably the place to start looking.

IIRC, we can build the Forbidden Palace. I think we should do that in the Incan lands. It looks like there are still enough trees to chop hurry it.

ThERat
Mar 17, 2006, 09:24 AM
save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/MM12_AD-0800.Civ4SavedGame)

Pre-Turn
we need more warm bodies for WW repression to get at Mali
MM a little to emphasize shields rather than growth since WW is an issue anyway

1.710AD
move our mini stack right next to Walata, the new Malinese capital
defeat a skirmisher

2. 720AD
metal is in, go for machinery on the way to optics
defeat the wounded skirmisher and take Tadmekka for a mere 34gold, it's a nice location, so decide to keep it
spread confucianism to Cumae

3. 730AD
raze a barb city for 99gold, it's a nice location but we can't afford all those cities
lose a praet against an axe and need to defeat it with a cat
attack the western town of Wallata with 2 cats, 1 retreats
lose a preat attacking, the next 2 do the job sinking a galley as well gaining a worker
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/mm12730.jpg
raze the town since it has nothing specially appealing at this moment

we can now focus on the northwest which will make things easier I hope

4. 740AD
moving units west

5. 750AD
suicide a cat at Gao, then defeat 2 units and keep city since it will give us phants
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/mm12750.jpg

6. 760AD
defeat a barb axe in the north
discover the Mali phants in the jungle in the north

7. 770AD
step next to Bulgar, defended by 3 units and we only have 2 praets

8. 780AD
Rome gets a partly chopped forge, starts library
spot another Mali city in the north, shift more units north

9. 790AD
more units approach those 2 cities

10. 800AD
there is a missionary on the way to Tadmekka so we can get border expansion to connect ivory as soon as possible

I do hope we can take out Mali as soon as possible to get rid of WW and start serious infrastructure
by the way, we will get the christian holy city as well


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/mm12800.jpg

T_McC
Mar 17, 2006, 11:08 AM
Couple of things from looking at the save:

Don't be afraid to whip resistors in ex-Mali cities.

Build orders seem to assume no other civ on this continent, do we really believe that? It took forever for the Mali to find us and we were wandering German territory for a long time.

Don't think we have to jump the Palace, but Hamburg looks real good for the FP. We have Marble so a run at Versailles is possible but I wouldn't plan on it since we're likely to be lagging in tech for a good long while.

To build Crossbows we need Machinery and Archery. I'm not sure why we want to try to rush to Optics. I think we should try to clean up the cheap techs first while we re-build our economy, since we'll have to research them anyway. Delaying Optics (or whatever expensive tech you like) by 15-20 turns is likely preferable to delaying Archery (Long/Crossbows), Sailing, Polytheism and Monotheism (Org Rel, perfect for an Organized civ on an infra binge) all by ~30 turns.

We got lucky that this continent has at least 4 pre-Calendar lux. I think the only one we're missing is Gems, and there is still a bunch of Jungle in the fog.

Greebley
Mar 17, 2006, 11:19 AM
It looks like we have found the west coast which would make another civ much less likely. We also have a pretty large fighting force. I do not think we need more units. If we meet someone we can re-evaluate that.

In any case I think ThERat is correct in planning for no more civs on our continent and that it is time to get our economy up and running.

katank
Mar 17, 2006, 03:28 PM
I think so too. Our army won't be able to conquer another rival quickly but wouldn't lose ground either.

The chances of another civ is extremely low. This is not pangea. Random scouts wandering would have made contact by now.

I'll probably play and post on Sunday.

T_McC
Mar 20, 2006, 12:06 PM
Keepin' it on the front page.

Any progress?

katank
Mar 20, 2006, 12:10 PM
I played 5 turns so far. Should be done tonight. Sorry about the delay.

Mark1031
Mar 20, 2006, 12:53 PM
As far as research while I know your always war blood boils I would say assuming we are alone (after Mansu) that we focus on building techs rather than racing to optics. We want to be in Org Rel., we want to expand fast and cottage up the continent. Then we want to get to liberalism 1st and go to free speech which along with PP will make our cottage based economy very powerful. We want to spread our religions because in free religion each religion in a town is 1 happy which will come in handy for WW along with the available temples. We will want to pick up Lit soon also for the leader generating wonder while the Parthanon still works. I would hold at least 5 leaders in reserve for 2 GAs later in the game. Given our ultimate size this is the best use of leaders. We could do 1 academy in the city that will get oxford but I really hope to get 3 GA's, 2 with leaders and 1 with the Taj. As far as invading the other continent (In case I didn't mention it this was special continents 2 selected.) that will be quite a while. I do not think we will be able to have a roving SoD untill it is all but in the bag as it will get eaten alive at this level. Knocking out major coastal cities and retreating will probably work best to weaken them first.

T_McC
Mar 20, 2006, 01:07 PM
I have a slightly different take than Mark. I would use our next GP (almost assuredly a Prophet, since we aren't trying to generate another type of GP) and build the Temple of Solomon. I think it will be fairly straightforward to spread two religions, since we already have one of Judaism or Confucianism in most of our cities, but spreading Christianity (which we don't own just yet) will be a chore.

So since we want to spread a 2nd religion, might as well get paid for it. I think it will actually be worth more money than 1/3 or 1/2 a GA since we collect every turn (+ multipliers). In addition, I think Hamburg is our best city for commerce/Wall Street so we should have a shrine there.

For fighting WW, we have to expect to use the lux slider at some point so 75-hammer Theaters should be more cost-efficient than multiple 120-hammer Temples. Building multiple Temples in a city is a good way to generate a Prophet, but shouldn't be particularly necessary to fight WW. It may even prove more cost-effective to build Colosseums (165 hammers?) rather than Temples as I would expect we should be comfortable with running 20% lux.

Mark1031
Mar 20, 2006, 01:48 PM
I agree with TMcC's assessment on happy. I tend not to build many temples and the Jewish shrine would be useful. I would like to get as many GA's as possible though. I am actually thinking we do this in Democracy where our towns will generate 2 hammers ea. My main point is that we want to focus on building and I would like to generate as many GP as possible now while we have the Parthanon so lets also grab lit soonish for that wonder.

katank
Mar 20, 2006, 08:59 PM
Didn't see the posts on tech till later. Anyhow, I kept with machinery and didn't get any GPs.

Turn 0 (800): Looking good. Somehow we are still #2 in land area? I see our economy down the drain.

Some cities have no courthouses and are unhappy. Liberal application of the whip means no more unhappy and lots more courthouses. Should finish Mali soon.

Turn 1 (810): Captured Adwaghost. (6.7/8), (7.0/8). Readying for assault on Bulgar next turn on Bulgar. At Assyrian, killed a barb archer (6.8/8)

Turn 2 (820): Killed another barb archer at Assyrian (6.2/8). Smashed two skirms and two spears at Bulgar flawlessly (6.6/8), (6.7/8), (8/8), (5/5) with 3 prats and 1 axe. Mali lost its capital and 4 ivories and a wheat.

Turn 3 (830): Wow, our veteran prat at Assyrian almost lost to a barb archer (0.6/8).

Turn 4 (840): A shock, combat 2 prat take crazy risk in attacking Mali swordsman in jungle but wins (3.7/8). A prat and axe assault Niani and raze it (1.3/8) and (5/5) against a Mali skirm and spear.

We also capture Assyrian (3.2/8) and (4.3/8). Wow, that was a hell of a lot of barb archers that we killed.

Turn 5 (850): Spotted Phyrigan. Likely the last Mali city.

Turn 7 (870): Mali destroyed! No need to even bombard. Prats storm in for (5.7/8), (4.7/8), (3.7/8)

Against a skirm, spear, and cata.

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/6040/maligone00000uo.th.jpg (http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=maligone00000uo.jpg)

Turn 8-10 (880-900): Nothing exciting. Noticed some barb cities pop up in the south. We need to settle the rest of our continent ASAP to prevent barb spawn and to get our cultural borders out a bit. Next few turnsets should be strictly barb control and builder. Our demographics are finally decent, still horribly behind on gold though. We need the Forbidden Palace to be built in one of the Eastern cities fast.

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5295/demo00003vt.th.jpg (http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=demo00003vt.jpg)

T_McC
Mar 20, 2006, 09:13 PM
I'll take a look at this tonight, but won't play until tomorrow.

I think a negative GNP means we would be losing money at 0% science. :cringe: I think we'll have to be a little patient in trying to settle our land, but no one else is going to claim it either. Maybe the barbs can come up with some money for us. :lol:

Greebley
Mar 21, 2006, 11:59 AM
I would also build a decent number of cottages. Falling behind in tech is our greatest risk now.

Mark1031
Mar 21, 2006, 12:20 PM
I just looked at the save and we really kept too many cities. There is a size 1 jungle city costing us 12gpt. We really should have raised a few, esp the small ones that can't pop rush a court. The Barbs would have built us some new ones and allowed a more controlled expansion, what are our Prats going to do now. We have some coastal spots to settle near Rome and a silver/whales town. I really miss the disband function.

T_McC
Mar 21, 2006, 02:00 PM
900 AD (0)
Switch tech path to head for Monotheism, we need the 25% boost for the infra push. The two techs are due in 14, for now.

Hamburg will build the FP, but first arrange tiles for max food with the idea that it will grow three times on this round.

We start at -30 gpt @ 20% science, let's take a spin through the cities ... Frankfurt desperately needs a Missionary, and Djenne could use one as well. Add Timbuktu to that list. Set Gao to grow, since it just whipped an Obelisk. We really don't want to build those things, we are much better served to produce a Missionary for the cpt (and a gpt+ and a happy face). Replace all other Obelisk builds with something more useful. Bulgar wants to be whipped ... maybe soon. :)

When Phrygian comes out of resistance we'll have another lux ... and another financial anchor. Set the city to a Courthouse to catch the forest chop.

Rome won't use a Temple for ages, swap to a Confucian Monastery to be an alternate Missionary source. Then change my mind since we'll be in Org Rel soon enough, and leave the Temple be. Rome will use it to run a Priest so we can get our 2nd Great Prophet in about 1/2 the time.

Antium re-arranged to grow, we can get another 3 pop there this round. Use Magyar's food to build a worker. Magyar is hammer-poor but food-rich, so should be building nothing but workers and settlers until our continent is filled.

Cumae needs worker attention (and a Lighthouse), but for now arrange for max commerce and slow growth. Get Vandal arranged to grow again. With a Lighthouse I think we can afford to cottage the plains tiles, but we'll see.

Deficit reduced to -8 gpt, so I bump research to 30%.

Re-route Missionary to Djenne.

And now I am ready to hit <return> .

920 AD (2)
Phrygian out of resistance and we are hemorrhaging money again. Welcome to the empire, :whipped: . :)

Spread Confucianism at Frankfurt, and examine a couple of Barb cities.

940 AD (4)
Polytheism is in, on to Monotheism. Rome starts to run a Priest.

Burn Barb city of Zapotec and score a worker and 104 gold.

970 AD (7)
Lose a Praetorian but burn Barb city of Sakae. Only get 11 gold for it. :(

Hamburg has grown two sizes and is configured for max hammers.

980 AD (8)
Monotheism is in and we revolt to Org Rel.

Spot a Barbarian Horse Archer!

990 AD (9)
Horse Archer dutifully dies by attacking Praetorian on a wooded hill.

1000 AD (10)
Nothing exciting, just moving towards the next Barb city.

Final Notes:
The FP will complete during Mark's turn so our economy will look a little better. Sailing will complete on the IT so we can build Lighthouses and Mark can pick a new research direction.

The next GP is ~20 turns away, so nothing to worry about yet. Opportunities abound for whipping, particularly in Assyrian. We should be ready for a mini-push on Missionaries since only about 1/2 of our empire has Confucianism. Rome can build them after it finishes its Courthouse (no, that is not a mistake). Antium can also use a Courthouse after it finishes its Forge.

If we want to go cottage-happy, building Granaries early is a good idea. We need to get our population up to get our economy running. During these 10 turns we grew ~25% despite copious whipping, and I expect that can continue.

A few units are still wandering around on BarbWatch. I'm not sure whether we are better off letting the Barbs build more cities or not, but I'd just as soon not have to worry about where our workers are or have to defend our improvements.

It appears from the demographics that someone is getting beat down on the other continent, and the civ doing the beating is in a GA. I don't think I've ever been that far behind in productivity in a game before, so I'll hope it's a GA.

No pictures since I already closed the game, and all that is new are some tile improvements.

I'll post the save when the site is a little less flaky.

T_McC
Mar 21, 2006, 02:13 PM
So, here's the save.

friskymike
Mar 21, 2006, 03:12 PM
Lurker comment: This is a great thread. I really want to see your economy recover and the tactics you'll use on some seriously advanced emperor AI... good luck!

katank
Mar 21, 2006, 06:11 PM
Sorry guys. The size 1 jungle city is my fault. It did have 2 fishes though and will be a great whipping post later. Besides, the grasslands is perfect cottage terrain.

Mark1031
Mar 23, 2006, 08:27 AM
Pre: Whip granary in Nubian

1005: Taoism founded.

1010: Sailing in decide to go back to machinery for the windmills.

1020: Loose a worker to a barb ax I didnít see.

1045: Machinery in go with alphabet for lit.

1050: There is a settler that can make a town that picks up silver and whales at the red dot. It will be a not bad city as it will have 2 deer for food.

As for research I would finish alphabet and lit. I would build the leader generating wonder in Antium as it can support quite a few specialists and can build fast. For research I would generally beeline to liberalism but given our economy it might be better to head for banking 1st and Mercantilism will be our only economic civic for quite a while. Philosophy was just discovered on my turns so the AI isnít too far along.

Greebley
Mar 23, 2006, 08:57 AM
NM on my first message

Edit: I got it.

T_McC
Mar 23, 2006, 10:36 AM
The GP boosting wonder (National Epic) should be built in Magyar, not Antium. To run more than a couple of specialists in Antium will require nerfing either the commerce or production of the city. It's too valuable as a production source to waste on GPP.

Magyar can run 5 specialists while configured for max trade and 7-8 if we want to push food there. It also has no production to speak of, so its excess food should either be used to produce Settlers/Workers or GPP. It would be worth killing a few folks there to whip a Forge for a couple of extra happies (and a 25% boost on subsequent whips) since the city is currently at +11 fpt with a Granary (i.e., whipping 4 pop isn't a real big deal, they'll all grow back by the time the whip penalty wears off). The only drawback is that we'll have to whip the Wonder, but I think the National Epic is sped up by Marble (which we have/will soon have) so it may only be 4-5 people. If we want to do this, we should leave that river forest up until we can chop it towards the wonder.

We could actually be in the black at 40% science by working an extra couple of gold hills. Seems like we're MM'ed for maximum food in most places (we grew another 60% in 10 turns), just depends on how patient you want to be. Population is power, but it's hard to pass up tiles with 6-7 cpt. :)

We now have 60% of the leader in population (up from 40% in 1000 AD) and are the leaders in productivity. We did catch the leader (Egypt?) in a GA at 1000 AD since their productivity has gone down in the last 50 years.

ThERat
Mar 23, 2006, 04:58 PM
I agree with T_McC on Magyar for the GP generation, it has so much food and hardly shields. We should look for another city that can generate a lot of food so we can build a Globe Theatre whipping/drafting city.

And I still think to go for caravels and get the AI into war mode will help us. As long as the AI builds military, it will slow down it's infra builds. This will help a lot.

Greebley
Mar 23, 2006, 09:11 PM
Ok, I played my turns. Not a whole lot to report.

I went for Lit as the team seemed to want though it seems lower priority to me. The national Epic to get GP's doesn't seem worth going two whole techs out of the way and Magyar doesn't even have the basic buildings yet. (Alphabet though is definitely useful as it heads us toward Drama). The Heroic Epic can wait since we have noone to fight. The Great Library was completed during Mark's turn (though I didn't realize this until we got Lit).

Likewise I think a run toward Liberalism won't gain us anything. The evidence is the AI is ahead of us in tech and so the chances are extremely small of getting a free tech. I did start toward theology (at least that can be used to give us Caravels with a promotion which are much more likely to survive -theology being a pre-req of Liberalism in case the rest of you all want to try it anyway), but I like the idea of going for Caravels next.

I rushed a few things on the final turn. We had towns into unhappy land. Magyar rushed a Market (for 4 people but it grows fast) and so will be able to start the Epic next turn and make going for Lit a bit more worthwhile. It still has no forge so no engineers.

I also started the Colossus because it was fairly quick. It will get us cash one way or the other (If we build it it will help coastal towns, if they build it we get some bonus cash.

ThERat
Mar 24, 2006, 05:46 AM
save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/MM12_AD-1150.Civ4SavedGame)

Pre-Turn
put back the specialist in Rome for the GP and set it on missionaries, we want to spread our faith
theology drops to 4 turns due to MM

1. 1105AD
due to markets our income is now even at 50% science
increase to 60% at -33gpt

2. 1110AD
we get the message that the Colossus has been built elsewhere

3. 1115AD
we do get 110gold for the effort

4. 1120AD
theology is in, next we go for compass for optics and caravels

5. 1125AD
zzz

6. 1130AD
raze a barb town for some gold, our income is at -22gpt at 60% science
while going through our cities, I find this weird phenomena
:confused: this must be a bug
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/mm121130.jpg

7. 1135AD
spread our faith to the latest city

8. 1140AD
compass is done, optics in 5 next

9. 1145AD
spread Confucianism to Gao

10. 1150AD
spread Judaism to Antium
we have a missionary on the way to Phyrigian, that should settle the happy problem
we do have a settler north of Rome to settle in a nice spot IMHO
our income is -11gpt at 60% science and we will get another prophet in 2 turns
he can build the shrine in Hamburg, we still need one in Phyrigian for Christianity
I did not revolt since we want to still spread religion for more income and later happiness
optics is due in 3 turns

settler to settle where praet is
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/mm121150.jpg

Gotag
Mar 24, 2006, 06:32 AM
That is not a bug, its a "feature"

Even Barb's have mothers. :lol:

It occurs in captured Barb cities. It also happens regardless of AW or not since the game engine treats barbs as AW anyway.

I'm not sure if it triggers if there are Barb cities anywhere in the world (at time of unhappiness) or it always exists regardless of whether they have cities or not. You eventually assimilate then though. :borg:

Gotag

katank
Mar 24, 2006, 06:41 AM
Wow, never saw that before. Learn something new every day.

Please skip me as I'm leaving for spring break this afternoon and wouldn't be able to play the whole week.

ThERat
Mar 24, 2006, 07:19 AM
That is not a bug, its a "feature"Pardon me, but I think it's stupid. So, you are supposed to beat all barbs to get rid of this? It's not as if this game wasn't giving any trouble regarding WW that this 'feature' is necessary... :(

T_McC
Mar 24, 2006, 07:48 AM
It's not that bad. All you need to do is build culture in the city (why is it size 8 with 3 food bonuses, and still not have a whipped cultural building?) and the citizens will revert to your nationality. The process goes fairly quickly for barb cities, at least those that hadn't been allowed to exist for thousands of years.

I may be able to play this afternoon, but if Mark can jump in and play the turns he should feel free to post a got it and play. Otherwise we may be waiting until Monday, or having to swap with Mark anyway.

I will post a "got it" message when I start playing.

Mark1031
Mar 24, 2006, 08:35 AM
got it.....

Mark1031
Mar 24, 2006, 10:31 AM
Pre: We should really have the marble hooked. We are building the Epic and could take a shot at Sistine. Assyrian will be a powerful coastal city with 2 food resources and lots of hills. Switch to forge. Reconfigure a bit for growth. I really love growth at this stage and swap a few forges for markets. Forge is 2 happy + hammers + engineer if hammer poor.

1160: we get our prophet in Rome. Reconfigure for growth. Burn Illinois for a lousy 15 gp. Missionary fails in the Christian holy city.

1165: Optics in and if on cue Hatty appears from the NE and declares war. She is up a bunch of techs but does not have paper or drama. I was going for drama but theaters are not urgent and I would like to make a run on liberalism. I think we can get it assuming she is the most advanced.. Besides the quicker we get up universities and oxford the faster we research everything else. Go for drama anyway as it is a prereq for Philo and will make that quicker.

1170; Wack another barb city leving Timbuktu undefended. And what do you know but a horse archer appears from the freaking fog. Start a spear and will whip next turn.

1175: Marble hooked and Rome starves to try at Sistine in 12.

1180: Horse pillages. Start another spear in 1

1185: Wack horse post fog busters.

1190: Loose Sistine for 150 gp. Not unexpected. Whip National Epic for 4 pop. Meet Washington also from NE. He is also up a bunch but no paper.

1200: Paper in 1 and neither Hatty or Washington have it and are missing many other techs that they will go for first. I would really advocate making the run for liberalism to take Nationalism or Astronomy. Nationalism should get us the Taj if no one else has it. Having Universities and getting a science city up and running with Oxford is usually one of my primary goals. I think all the fog is busted so the barbs should not be a concern. Well that would be my plan anyway. I would let Myagar grow into its specialists as it has several villages to work. Also built the Jewish shrine somewhere in there.

Immaculate
Mar 24, 2006, 12:13 PM
And I still think to go for caravels and get the AI into war mode will help us. As long as the AI builds military, it will slow down it's infra builds. This will help a lot.

Quick question:
Don't you start to acumulate war worries as soon as you meet because of the AW option? By the time you decide to invade it will have progressed considerably. Or won't it? I don't know for sure. Maybe you want to put off meeting you neighbors until the last possible minute so that you can avoid MASSIVE WW when you are at the height of your war? War worries could seriously slow your war-time production and research.

I am not sure about this- thats why its a question and not a suggestion.


EDIT: i guess the point is mute now with the company that has found you (i had not read to the end of the thread when i posted). I would still like to hear your thoughts on this though as i am still learning.


Anyway, good reading.

Greebley
Mar 24, 2006, 01:57 PM
I think you only gain WW for offensive action and possibly for losing troops (not sure on the last). Both cannot occur unless you can reach each other with Galleys.

Mostly though it is offensive action that causes WW.

As for getting Liberalism, we know Divine Right was gotten 40 turns ago and Literature was learned at least 50-60 turns ago. That does not bode well for getting there first, IMO. I guess we can try but I am not very hopeful.

Meeting the other AI seems a good idea. That will get us a better picture of our chances. Unlike normal games, the tech of one AI tells you nothing about another.

katank
Mar 24, 2006, 02:14 PM
A phony war does not do much for war weariness at all. Losing units both on attack and defense are huge for war weariness. Killing units also produce a little.

A nuclear exchange is a lot worse for war weariness. That wouldn't be applicable for us though.

Mark1031
Mar 24, 2006, 05:43 PM
As for getting Liberalism, we know Divine Right was gotten 40 turns ago and Literature was learned at least 50-60 turns ago. That does not bode well for getting there first, IMO. I guess we can try but I am not very hopeful.

Meeting the other AI seems a good idea. That will get us a better picture of our chances. Unlike normal games, the tech of one AI tells you nothing about another.

True but I have never had an AI go to liberalism before optics. So if we haven't met them then I would assume they are behind. If they don't have paper yet then we are in the running. We can see what techs they have over us but not the other way around. If we get Philo next and no one has edu before we do then we likely have it.

Greebley
Mar 24, 2006, 06:08 PM
ok, we can try it. Do push for meeting all the AI's so we know who has what though.

ThERat
Mar 24, 2006, 06:57 PM
let's try to meet everyone and maybe circumnavigate the globe if that's still possible.

this is the roster since I also want to remind myself:

Mark - just played
Greebley - on deck
ThERat
Katank - skipped for a week
TMcC - up

T_McC
Mar 24, 2006, 09:24 PM
1200 AD (0)
The usual copious rearrangments and a couple of whips. I think the tech path will not be directly to Liberalism, we need a couple of small diversions first.

1205 AD (1)
Start to send Caravels wandering. Whip Theater in Phrygian, and begin a settler in Antium. We actually built one too many Confucian Missionaries, so I'll have a spare to send to the new city. ;)

1220 AD (4)
We meet Monte and Elizabeth, and declare war.

We need to start re-building our military, so I put a couple of the western cities on Barracks and start some troops in the East. We got Archery so we can build Crossbows for defense vs. Melee units.

1225 AD (5)
We're down a bunch of visible techs, including Philosophy and have Paper on no one. Should be able to judge validity of Liberalism run soon.

1230 AD (6)
We now have Whales. Start to spread Judaism from Hamburg. Antium completes a Settler, starts another. We're in the black at 60% science, so let's fill up the continent.

Don't think anyone has circumnavigated yet, so we'll keep trying.

1235 AD (7)
No one else has Education, so we press onward. Correction: We first double back to pick up Civil Service @ last since that is a pre-requisite for Nationalism.

1250 AD (10)
Found Ravenna and spread Confucianism there. City claims a Gold, an Iron, and an Oasis, so it will be pretty good.

I leave a Settler unmoved, so Greebley can figure out where he wants it. We have room for at least 5 more cities on this continent, including one East of Rome.

T_McC
Mar 24, 2006, 09:27 PM
Couple of pictures:

The new city. From the minimap you can also see we're close to circumnavigating, if no one else has done it already.

http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/7611/mm12newcity0vn.jpg

The Demographics:

http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/3866/mm12demo7xu.jpg

One can tell from the circles that this game is already over, unless someone comes up with Astronomy really soon. :)

We do have to start re-building our military. We have too many cities that are being defended by Catapults. :lol: Not a huge rush but we need to be ready for another civ landing 4-6 Maces or such whenever they get around to researching Astronomy.

Mark1031
Mar 25, 2006, 12:45 PM
We're down a bunch of visible techs, including Philosophy and have Paper on no one. Should be able to judge validity of Liberalism run soon.


For some reason you can see what techs they have on you but not what you have on them. Not sure why that is but when we were 1 tech from paper neither civ we knew had it. I would be very surprised to see anyone pop up with edu before us. Even if we loose liberalism race we want free speech for the +2 town income. PP is also an important tech for our cottage based econ. I'm not sure it is over but we are in very good shape. Taking out another continent with 4 civs on Emp AW is not trivial but as long as we keep up or ahead in tech we should be OK.

T_McC
Mar 25, 2006, 03:46 PM
Since the AI can't trade techs with each other, and our GNP lead is only going to grow, we have a Space victory if we want it. But I don't think we want that unless we have to take it. I think we want to win by Conquest, although Domination may be easier.

I think we're going to hit the other continent with a tech gap right at the time for Bombers and Tanks, so it should be doable.

Greebley
Mar 26, 2006, 10:13 AM
Ok, I got it. I will play tomorrow

Greebley
Mar 28, 2006, 10:32 AM
I was too tired to play yesterday so held off as I think playing well is important. I am going to try again tonight.

Greebley
Mar 28, 2006, 08:28 PM
We got civil service and revolted to Bureaucracy.

Egypt will have gotten Education 4 turns ahead of us and can grab Liberalism if she chooses (she got it 2 turns ago and we have 2 turns to go for Edu). If she chooses a different tech, I suspect we will get it.

Mostly builder turns.

We got the Global Circumnavigate bonus :D

There was one Caravel vs Caravel battle - we won it.

Built Heroic Epic in Rome - It is a strong high shield town (especially with Bureaucracy, but even without).

Disbanded a few units.

To discuss: Do we want to bring in the units that are keeping Barbarians from forming? We are spending 13 gpt for units outside our territory. We could also promote our units if we get barbs.

If we do get to Liberalism first I assume we are going to take Nationalism? I think it will be the most expensive by a good bit.

ThERat
Mar 28, 2006, 09:53 PM
ok got it

let's hope we can grab liberalism still...we can pull back our units, maybe that will be good for our income and maybe they form nice cities for us. I will have a look at that.
Other than that, I guess we are going after astronomy for galleons so we can actually fight the enemy at their turf.

ThERat
Mar 28, 2006, 11:59 PM
Pre-Turn
we're running at 70% science with -60gpt

just to get things clearer what we wanted:
Magyar: national Epic for GP generation
Rome: HE for unit supply
Vandal: looks like our naval builder, so drydock there once we can build it
Phrygian: Globe Theater since it can grow fast and is valuable city, it also needs a shrine

MM a little and swap 2 cities that are at health limit from temple to aqueduct
we do have 2 settlers in production and that's all I guess there is

we can still spread our religions around

1. 1305AD
trying to pull back units where we can afford it. We don't want our land fully exposed

IT lose a caravel at Vandal, luckily those caravels can't rip fishing nets
we get education

2. 1310AD
found Circei in the north for another dip in income
liberalism will take 6 turns

3. 1315AD
income improves to -47gpt, but we will found another 2 cities soon

4. 1320AD
beat that nuicance caravel at vandals
get a new source of gold next to Antium :)
found Setia in the north, income at -61gpt
employ another specialist in Magyar and we make 32spt

5. 1325AD
want to bite the keyboard, we have 3 turns to go for liberalism and Egypt now has it :gripe:

6. 1330AD
we do have another Great Prophet for a christian shrine
send him on the way to Phrygian

7. 1335AD
spreading our faiths improves the income, even at 60% science now

8. 1340AD
liberalism is in, go for calendar in 2 on the way to astronomy
found Satricum, the last city we should build on our continent

9. 1345AD
zzz

10. 1350AD
calendar is in, we have many options for research, select astronomy, but we can debate this
Rome finishes a uni
we'll need to decide where to put Oxford

Great Prophet is heading for Phrygian and will reach in 2 turns (we do need to spread christianity before swapping the civic
to either theocracy or free religion

Egypt has astronomy so we can expect some landings soon and should increase our military
do check Phrygian and rush Globe Theatre as soon as we can, now its 8/5 citizens

the world map, according to demographics, we are better in every aspect but military (Egypt #1)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/mm111350.jpg

ThERat
Mar 29, 2006, 12:01 AM
Mark
Greebley
ThERat
Katank - skipped for a week
TMcC - up

T_McC
Mar 29, 2006, 08:39 AM
I'm not sure we need to research Astronomy next, we don't have troops to send to the other continent. The only present utility of Astronomy is Galleon-Galleon combat, and that's not terribly appealing.

Also not sure we want to build the Christian Shrine. We should have Confucianism in almost every city (maybe 2 or 3 without) and I started to spread Judaism on my last round (don't know how that's going), but we may not want to spend the hammers to spread a third religion, particularly if it involves ~1000 hammers of missionaries (20 cities). We may be better off using the GP as 1/2 of a GA.

I'm thinking we head for Banking to revolt into Mercantilism (and build Knights for homeland defense) and hope to get Economics first to score the Merchant and a GA. That is a little dubious as I figure that is where Hatty is heading and she probably has a 1-tech lead on us in the chase. So maybe Guilds -> Banking -> Nationalism to build the Taj Mahal. Hatty can't get both Economics and Nationalism before us so we should be fairly assured of a GA soon (we have the price-halving resource for Taj :) ).

Mark1031
Mar 29, 2006, 09:54 AM
Too bad about Liberalism. I guess our econ is not that much better than Hatty. First we should immediately switch to free speech for the +2gp/town. Second I would research PP next as it gives us another 1 gp/town,village. After that I like heading for guilds/banking. Guilds for knights banking for merc and banks. We should also grab engineering for faster movement. I would keep up primarily infra builds and get some sentry caravels in place so we have time to respond to an invasion force. Astronomy can wait until we are ready to go to chemistry for frigates or are done building unis and banks in our major commerce cities. Get some defense and cats positioned on the North to respond to Hatty if she gets uppity (She took Astronomy). Also, we should max out specialists in Mygar now to take advantage of the Parthenon which is done with Chemistry which we will want soon. Definitely keep the Prophet for a GA. I agree with TMcC that we will not be spreading a 3rd religion wide enough to warrant another shrine. It will be a long time before we take the fight to the enemy. We want tech superiority.

ThERat
Mar 29, 2006, 09:54 AM
well, I continued to spread both confucionism and judaism, and started on christianity as well. Our income is pretty poor, so we can use any extra income. Since any city with faith can build those missionaries, we had no issue building those rather than drowning in unit cost. We do not have a ton of buildings to set up in cities except now for universities. And that's only useful in cities with high commerce.

As for astronomy. I rather we have galleons to protect our nets, caravels aren't that hot versus galleons and later frigates.
banking is also a good tech of course.

Greebley
Mar 29, 2006, 12:37 PM
We have towns that have little to build other than units. (once the universities finish). I think we CAN start building up an army that can work at weakening the AI. The old "drop them in defensive terrain" trick.

Also there was a barbarian town very close to the AI whose access to by land is completely cut off due to a mountain. Lets grab that town -we can then defend it vs landings. it will be a good launchpoint for AI attacks.

Not sure if the town has been taking or destroyed by the AI, but we should still be able to find it. It is fairly close to our borders as well IIRC.


So I say Astronomy should be our next tech and we should start considering the invasion (starting with that town). I see no real reason not to.

Mark1031
Mar 29, 2006, 12:59 PM
Well majority rule but I must disagree. We are the big dog but a bit behind in tech. That will change but only if we continue to focus on this. We will not weaken the AI by having a town that we both throw units into. It will just divert us. PP is worth like probably 40-50 gpt and this increases the rate at which we can research everything else. Free speech is also good for us. We are in org religion and can build buildings. Let’s keep it up with banks even grocers in some. Also, no one has Nationalism so with marble that is a free GA for us. Given our size that is huge. My only concern is for when they get frigates, then we will need frigates and should beeline to destroyers to control the sea. So I say PP then maybe Nationalism for the GA then to Banking or maybe to astronomy/chemistry for the frigates. In no way do we need galleons or other than a small defensive army now and we get there probably almost as fast with printing press and a GA.

ThERat
Mar 29, 2006, 05:20 PM
We will not weaken the AI by having a town that we both throw units intoI think you are wrong, once the AI throws units at us, they will stall themselves producing nothing but troops and WW will absolutely kill them. I have played in tandem with AI's and can see that this is exactly what happens. We can always go for PP later on

Mark1031
Mar 30, 2006, 01:33 PM
I truly do not see the point of the bait city or dropping units in defensive terrain. We do not have tech superiority--at this point we are equal or behind. What is our advantage? Why will using a bait city give them each more WW than it will give us combined? Also from a tech point of view we are on the verge of gunpowder units. By the time we get out to our bait city or drop our medieval units in defensive terrain they will be facing gunpowder units. I just do not see how this helps. And in my experience the AI is not so lame in attacking. They come with good sized stacks, and what if they donít take our bait and come for a weakly defended mainland city while we are piling units into our bait city? What if they do and we loose the city because 2 AIs drop off 6-9 units each and take the city. My main concern is that if we fool around like this we will generate our own WW and I donít know how to get rid of it other than spending lots of $$. And as far as dropping units on their mainland I have tried this with strong tech superiority and I had machine guns and Cossacks getting eaten alive by ungodly numbers of cats knights and maces. It was a 1CC AW game so WW was not an issue but I lost like 9 more advanced units.
Time is on our side. We are a bit behind in tech but have a huge well developing empire. We will blow by them in techs in due time and that is when we should strike IMO. I wouldnít be too concerned if it was just losing a few unit in this adventure, it is the possibility of generating our own WW that has me concerned. If it gets too much it could really slow us down and it will be quite a while before we can eliminate a civ.
To me right now PP and getting the Taj are the most valuable things we can do. We should be building lots of caravels and some units to protect coastal cities. We should then head to chemistry, upgrade to frigates and try to sink their troops at sea by careful positioning of frigate groups and taking advantage of our +1 movement.

T_McC
Mar 30, 2006, 02:24 PM
Heh heh. I've already played the turns, and you don't have to worry about a half-assed invasion of the other continent. I'm in agreement with Mark (and he plays after me, so :p ) that all an invasion would be good for right now is generating WW.

Now, I'm not excluding the possibility that we follow up our 20-turn Golden Age with a significant invasion with Grenadiers/Frigates and maybe Cannons ... (Mark may have a real fun round, if I've set things up correctly :) ).

The disk and the save are at different computers, so I'll post tonight.

Greebley
Mar 30, 2006, 06:17 PM
Getting techs like PP seems worthwhile to me, but I would really like to grab the Barbarian city. It is NOT connected to the rest of the continent by land and would make a great staging area (The mountain blocks land travel). I would like to set that up before we invade for real. Going for all the techs we need for units and then starting the invasion will simply give the AI more time to build up.

A close by staging area means we don't have to risk the units in boats crossing the seas later when the AI has stronger boats. I am assuming the AI doesn't yet have frigates - if they do we have already missed our window of opportunity (though we can get frigates too before they get destroyers).


So lets get Astronomy when we have a chance.

ThERat
Mar 30, 2006, 06:42 PM
I agree that we have a strong empire, however this is emperor difficulty and we will never outpace the AI in terms of techs unless we hurt them. I agree with taking that protected barb town and stage an invasion from there. grenadiers, cannons and Cavs should be sufficient for that. Also, if you don't take the fight to their land, they will come after us and without the unlimited RR movement, defending your own turf isn't that easy any longer.

Gotag
Mar 30, 2006, 09:43 PM
Not to step on any toes but do remember that no tech trading is enabled.

Your empire is, if I read the info screens of T McC correctly, over twice the size of any of the remaining civs. You may have 1/2 the world here. In addition you have the advantage of superior micro compared to the AI. Also because you have a whole continent to yourself you should be completely self sufficient regarding resources and lux.

Right now you're like the snake that just ate the bush pig. You're bloated and a mite logy. However at this point you can and should be in builder/tech mode. Hell, it's the early 1400s (??) you're going to romp home here.

Just don't make the mistake of over unit production or over ambitious mongering. Your biggest threat isn't the AI but rather WW which can put you into a horrible death spiral.

Hell, I'd take your position at diety difficulty.

Gotag

T_McC
Mar 30, 2006, 11:24 PM
So ... have an initial survey of our troops and discover we have 52 land troops and 25 cities. Meaning we have a whopping 27 units above the MP requirement, and we have to defend the entire continent with no move-2 units stronger than a Chariot. Not even close to enough bodies to contemplate an invasion.

Besides, we're actually behind in battlefield technology. The AI have Muskets, Knights, Pikes and Longbows which we can't build. That would be a double-nope on an invasion. So we're staying on our turf for my 10 ...

Check our Civics, run a few numbers, and revolt us into Free Speech. Net gain of ~60 gold + beakers relative to Beauracracy at the cost of about 10 hammers. Don't change our Religion civic because we're still building buildings, and I don't want a 2-turn Anarchy.

Tech path was Feudalism (Longbows) -> Guilds (Grocers) -> Banking. Note that while Hatty doesn't have Econ, Washington does, so no attempt at the free Merchant. Set tech path to Nationalism and revolt us into Mercantilism. Once we're out of Anarchy assign as many Scientists as possible, so the civic nets about 75 beakers on its own. We still have ~7 cities that have to run Citizens as their free specialist, but eventually Mercantilism will be worth >100 gold + beakers/turn.

Nationalism is due in 6. Both Rome and Antium complete Grocers in 6, so Mark has his choice on where to build the Taj Mahal. Oh, and Magyar has another GP due in ... 6. We have a >80% chance it will not be another Prophet, so while we will have spotted Hattie ~10 turns in building Taj Mahal, we have an excellent chance to be building it with the price-halving resource stacked with a GA. The only fly in the ointment is that only at the end of the round did I realize to swap the Priest in Magyar to a Merchant, otherwise we may have been able to push the odds to ~90%.

Obviously the Prophet is still hanging around. I did push Christianity a bit, so if we are in a position to build the Shrine (or run Free Religion) it would be more worthwhile. I think we need 1 more Confucian Missionary for our continent and about 6 Jewish Missionaries to hit every city.

The tech path after Nationalism, particularly if we are in a GA should go Horseback Riding (Knights) -> Engineering (50% faster road movement) (this should only take 2 turns with significant overflow in a GA), and then run the bottom of the tree towards Chemistry. I think we have an excellent chance to get to Frigates and Grenadiers before anyone else, and can probably put a big hurt on someone.

If we do have a GA I would suggest building Taj in Antium rather than Rome, so we can use the Heroic Epic to build troops. I think otherwise Rome can be configured for more hammers than Antium so it's not as simple outside of a GA when we might have to race Hattie to complete the wonder.

ThERat
Mar 30, 2006, 11:24 PM
you might be right, I forgot about no trading, that will things much easier.

T_McC
Mar 30, 2006, 11:28 PM
A few pictures:

The Barb city Greebley keeps talking about

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/1079/barbcity2zr.jpg

I'm not sure I get his point about this being a staging area. The troops still have to take a boat from here to attack the AI, and I'm not sure I would assume the AI wouldn't send boats to attack our troops while they are being ferried from our continent to here. But it would get the AIs attention and probably keep them from sending too much to our continent.

The tech situation:
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/3237/techsit3kw.jpg

The effect of no tech trading: Hattie is the only one without Gunpowder. And all the AI lack a tech that multiple of the others have.

Didn't think I'd see this in an AW:
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/7342/naughtyboy2jh.jpg

At some point, Monte declared war on Hattie and Liz, so everyone is annoyed with him. Of course, they still all have Open Borders with him :rolleyes: .

ThERat
Mar 30, 2006, 11:39 PM
solid turns T_McC

Let's hope we can get the double GA which will get us to grenadiers. I would like us to go for steel as well, we can use some ironclads for net defense and cannons rock in AW.

Greebley
Mar 31, 2006, 12:26 AM
The units can transfer from one boat to another if they start in our eastmost town and make it to the barb town in one turn. The next turn they are dropped off on the other continent.

The land units spend no turns at sea and cannot be sunk. I am pretty sure the Barb town is close enough for this.

Mark1031
Mar 31, 2006, 08:57 AM
Pre: Did a lot of swaps mostly grocers for unis and banks. The grocer doesnít net us much. Would like to switch research to PP but it might cost us a GA. Also swap many cities to max shields. I would also like to get the building phase out of the way soon. Rush a few things like courts in far flung new cities and most notably globe theater for 6 citizens. I donít think Iíve ever whipped 6 before.

Building, building. Hatty went for constitution. Good the longer she stays away from chemistry the better.

1430: Nationalism in and thankfully we pop a scientist in Myagar. Start the GA. Jump from Ė25 to +51 gpt. Very nice. Go through and adjust cities for GA Start research on HBR.

1435: HBR in and research to PP in 3. I just love income.

1450: PP in and income jumps from 64-116gpt. Research-> Engineering then I would do astronomy-GP-Chem->steel for dry docks. OK now the military people can take over (I was tempted to go to constitution for representation but I think the sooner we get frigates the better). We are almost done with the critical building and could swap to theocracy after they complete although I would wait to build observatories in our top cities. A few forest chops have the Taj timed for a perfect double golden age. If we can get frigates before the AI We should upgrade a bunch of caravels (I think like 140gp per- we are accumulating $$ at a nice pace @ 70% research) and rip their coastal nets to shreads, starve the coastal cities and get nice upgrades for the fleet. Now that will slow them down w/o WW. Hatty still lacks GP and the others lack Astronomy. Good luck Greebly and Rat enjoy 16 turns of GA. Nicely set up TMcC.
As you can see from the pic I am still building mostly infra but this should be done soon. Don't bankrupt us with units too soon. If we get to destroyers well ahead of the AI we will own the seas.

Greebley
Mar 31, 2006, 12:57 PM
Sounds like a strong turn. I will probably start to build some Galleons when we get Astronomy. I don't know that I will be able to do much more than set things up for ThERat though.

I will probably play on Saturday.

Greebley
Apr 01, 2006, 12:30 PM
Tech:
We learned Astronomy, Gunpowder, and Chemistry. I started Rep Parts on the last turn

Towns: Filled in several spots that looked good on the home continent.

Turn 326 (1480 AD)
Ardea founded

Turn 330 (1500 AD)
Ostia founded
Velitrae founded

War:
Lost 2 Caravels killing an irksome English Caravel.

An egyptian town that was founded on our island:
Maceman loses to: Egyptian Longbowman (3.96/6)
War Elephant defeats (2.48/8): Egyptian Longbowman
Razed Avaris

Ran low science last turn to upgrade some Caravel to Frigates and 2 Axe to Grenadiers. We are running 50% science to upgrade further Caravels. We will easily own the seas and can pillage all the enemy water resources when we do.

I moved units to the city closest to the barbarian city. Our Galleons are coming around as they get built. They are not there yet (this was one reason I wanted to get Astronomy sooner - we have everything we need for the attack except the boats our good coastal cities are not well located for invasion - however getting the double golden age and PP was worth the delay).

Here is a picture of the waiting units:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/MM12_AD1500.jpg

T_McC
Apr 01, 2006, 03:48 PM
Well played.

If we have Frigates and no one else does ... why are we interested in the Barb city? We can sail our troops anywhere we want under Frigate (or more likely double-Frigate) cover. If we grab the Barb city we're basically committing to attack Monte, since he's the one we can can reach without having to leave our troops at sea for a turn. And I doubt he's the one we want to attack right now.

If we research Steel (Cannons), can we give Egypt a stiff kick in the groin? (You know, even for a woman that can't be pleasant ... ) She's the points leader, so I figure she should be first.

Mark1031
Apr 01, 2006, 04:13 PM
I agree with TMcC. We should focus on Hatty and maybe Washington who was teching pretty well. First we should flood the sea with frigates and tear up their nets and starve them while working our way to steel and getting a load of grenadiers. Once we have cannon we can take cities with frigate bombardment and coastal assault. I think we need a to get a nice tech lead before keeping a city on their continent but if we focus on weakening our biggest tech threats that should not be a problem. A revolt to Theocracy or vassalege for the jump to +6 XP is also in order before we build up troops. Not sure which one is best economically, probably vassalege with free religion for happy and tech help. Revolt after GA of course.

Greebley
Apr 01, 2006, 04:25 PM
I am guessing if we take the Barb city that the AI will concentrate on that city first since it is on their continent. That means all attacks and such would be localized - though maybe I am wrong and it makes no difference.

Putting any other city on their continent seems doubtful until we get rifles with multiple promotions.

Note that I saw the first AI galleons on my turns. There are a few in sight.

I guess I also having a city nearby. We could go there and heal for badly injured troops. I just checked - Egypt is 1 square too far away for our troops to jump into a boat and the boat reach a city on the island. So we cannot get the units to the city in one turn which makes it slightly less attactive. Note that we can get there in 1 with transports, but I think we need to settle it on the copper.

ThERat
Apr 01, 2006, 09:29 PM
save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/MM12_AD-1550.Civ4SavedGame)

Pre-Turn
yes, we do have a few caravels for upgrading, especially we want to own the seas
research: RP then steel, actually with all the irrigation, bio will be huge for us
Magyar is supposed to be our GP city but has only 3 specialists?
some MM, for exmaple I rather work a cottage than sea tile, in the long run this will be far greater commerce
we still need to spread some faith, thus do not revolt (it's GA as well)

IT see some boats around, confucianism spread by itself to 1 city, income at 413gpt

1. 1505AD
lose a caravel against Egypt galley :(
upgrade 3 caravels and defeat a Egyptian galleon with a frigate
found Viroconiunm since we do have another settler there

2. 1510AD
another upgrading round

3. 1515AD
increase science to 80% and finish uograding project with 3 more frigates
while automoving run into a caravel with frigate and sink it cleanly, however this concept is really stupid

4. 1520AD
RP is in, steel next in 5
start project rip the nets, then computer crashes due to overheating, switch on my air conditioning
relaod the autosave
whip frigate in Phrygian, it can do so for us in the future

5.1525AD
zzz moving out 2 more frigates to rip nets

6. 1530AD
rip 2 nets in Egypt and continue to spread our faith

7. 1535AD
GA is over, steel still in 2, but income dropped, reduce science to 70%
check civics, vassalage is pretty expensive and robs us of the commerce bonus, rather swap to cheaper
theocracy, but we still have some building there and spear judaism.

8. 1540AD
spread our faith still for added income
and rip nets around Washington, they won't be that healthy about that

IT steel is in, rifling next in 4

9. 1545AD
ripping nets

10. 1550AD
we need to make 3 decisions:

1. civics
as stated earlier, I prefer theocracy since it's a cheaper civics and we do not lose free market
(revolting will take 2 turns)

2. we need to decide where to build ironworks
Vandal or Rome are good candidates

3. we have a stack of 5 galleons and 2 frigate at Arretium
we can fill the galleons with units, mainly grenadiers, LB's knights etc.
we do not hav cannons yet. Rifles will be ready soon

Either we attack the barb city or make a landfall in Egypt, the strongest enemy
Looking at power, it's time to attack soon
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/mm121550.jpg

Greebley
Apr 01, 2006, 11:01 PM
Theocracy seems reasonable to me.

Rome has the National wonder that builds units at double speed. We can choose between West Point or Iron works. West point might be better.

T_McC
Apr 01, 2006, 11:38 PM
Heh. The vertical lines in the AI power curves tell you who already has Rifling. :) Maybe Egypt isn't the first target after all?

Definitely Theocracy. It doesn't prevent us from spreading multiple religions to our cities.

I think we should wait for Katank, he should be available on Monday. Otherwise I'm up again.

Mark1031
Apr 02, 2006, 04:58 PM
Yes Katank is up and we should wait for him to check in. For civics I advocate vassalege and Free Religion. Vass is expensive but we are Org and it has increased unit support. Free religion is cheap and gives 2 bonus that we will probably need the 10% science obviously as we want to stay apace or ahead in tech and the +1 happy/religion to combat WW.

Mark1031
Apr 04, 2006, 10:10 AM
I don't see any posts by Katank. Why don't we keep it moving and if Katank gets back he can do a swap.

TMcC-UP

T_McC
Apr 04, 2006, 03:26 PM
Alright. I may be able to get to this tonight, otherwise tomorrow.

T_McC
Apr 05, 2006, 12:11 AM
1550 AD (0)
Revolt us to Theocracy, Vassalage is really expensive with all of the Towns we have. The Anarchy will last 2 turns since we are so large.

Hard to say who the first victim should be. Hattie pulled Rifling, so that will be a slugfest. I nominate America. But I should be able to capture the Barb town on this set.

1565 AD (3)
Land strong next to the Barb city. We'll see how interesting the AI finds this.

1570 AD (4)
Capture Barb city without loss, need a bit of culture to re-claim tiles from the American city on the island N of there.

1585 AD (7)
Hey, Hattie is on the move! Invasion to our East, and fairly strong. Problem is, our Frigates aren't over there right now so those troops are going to land.

1590 AD (8)
Well, she lands on the single unimproved tile around Arretium. I just so happen to have a couple of Rifles and a Cannon in the city. Hmmm ....

Lose a suicide Cannon and then an Elephant against Hattie's Knights, then decide the pRNG has had enough for the round.

Whack (barely) an Egyptian Galleon that was carrying a Settler/Rifle/Worker trio somewhere. Only had 2-1 in strength for that one. :rolleyes:

We get a Great Engineer, and we also happen to be researching towards Democracy. :)

1595 AD (9)
Another fairly ugly pRNG round, but we maybe lose 2 more units than we should have. Hattie gets in a little pillaging but she'll be a dozen units lighter for her troubles.

Representation in, and we head for Democracy and another free Specialist. If we build the SoL and run Representation and Mercantilism, we can get 6 free beakers/city pre-multipliers, which would be ~25% of our current science output. Might require 10% lux to give up Hereditary Rule, but we're going there anyway.

1600 AD (10)
Clean up Hattie's remnants. Never a real threat, but we got thinned out a bit there.

We may want to drop the Democracy research and try to beat Hattie to Physics, although she already has Sci Method. We only down Economics to the others, and likely up a tech or two on them as well. I was thinking Democracy first (and Representation) to further boost our research capacity. And it wouldn't kill us to stick the AI with Emancipation unhappiness on top of WW they will soon be suffering.

Here's the situation on the other continent. We'll get a border pop next turn, and another during the next round (Theater + free Artist = 16 cpt). San Francisco is lightly defended and we have a settler active to replace it on the hill, but we got distracted by Hattie.

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/9546/frisco7wm.th.jpg (http://img162.imageshack.us/my.php?image=frisco7wm.jpg)

Greebley
Apr 05, 2006, 09:07 AM
Razing the town on the island or even keeping it for wars against Egypt might not be a bad idea either.

T_McC
Apr 05, 2006, 10:04 AM
Razing the town on the island or even keeping it for wars against Egypt might not be a bad idea either.
Uhh ... if you are speaking of San Francisco, that's what the active settler is for. :)

I wouldn't keep the city, I would rebuild on the Hill beside San Fran. I think SF might have even been built on a food bonus?

Greebley
Apr 06, 2006, 01:12 AM
Ok that makes sense.

I see they have Ricaroni - the San Fransisco treat.

Aside: That that I actually know what Ricaroni looks like or tastes like. I just watched too many game shows at one point in my life. It may actually be mythical - an elaborate hoax - who knows?

I should go to bed. I am starting to babble.

T_McC
Apr 06, 2006, 10:44 AM
Does Mark know he is up?

Mark1031
Apr 06, 2006, 12:07 PM
got it.....

Mark1031
Apr 06, 2006, 02:43 PM
Well it is obvious Admiral Nimitz was not chairman of the joint chiefs. For example Vandal, which is a coastal hammer powerhouse, was making a Rifle. I am a big fan of a navy in our current circumstances. IMO we need to flood the seas with frigates or better destroyers which are 20 turns of research away. I prefer to sink troops before they land of if you like let a few in for training purposes. In any case my turns were relatively uneventful. No landings at Aryan-our decoy city. Really nothing of any interest. We finished Democracy but I did not revolt yet as I didn’t think we had enough troops/ships yet to take 3 turns of anarchy (it is 2 for the first civic and one for each additional). I would go to Representation and suffrage and maybe even free religion if we want to out tech them. There is something to be said to being 1 XP short of a promotion anyway for the health boost with promotion.

Summary: Building dry docks in most productive coastal cities. Phrygian needs to have science and commerce buildings whipped before revolting to suffrage. We will have to do this anyway when the AIs get there and it will put a little negative pressure on them and help our cottages grow. RR is coming up which will give us machine gun cover and let us build our RR net. This will help with defense but I would really like a strong Navy to stop or at least warn about landings. I have 3 Frigates starving Alexandria. They will need some reinforcements but this is a major city that was living on seafood and can be starved to almost nothing. Vandal and Assryian are on autorepeat frigate duty. You might want to change that at some point but I think we should get much more of a Navy than we have now. Statue of Liberty is due in 17 in Antium. Also took a Barb town in our S which will net us some crabs when it comes out of revolt. There is a settler N of Rome that could make a city that uses the copper and another one in Uzbek. I’m not sure we need more cities at this point or really where to put them so I left them be.

EDIT: Sorry I didn't take San Fran. I knew that was the plan which I like but then got distracted by other stuff. Oh well the barb city nets us a health resource.

Greebley
Apr 06, 2006, 07:45 PM
Ok, I got it.

Greebley
Apr 08, 2006, 10:24 PM
Maybe I shouldn't have played tonight. I was a tad tired. The next player should check my MM.

Early: Go for San Fran and capture it with no losses.

Our luck with Frigates at the start is terrible. In one turn I lose 3 battles in a row to 2 frigates for example. Not only that but we do not have enough Frigates where we need them - between Egypt and ourselves. I cannot prevent a landing and have to scramble to defend our cities. We get pillaged.

Since we have more than enough to the west, there is a mass Frigate migration to the East.

Mid: The Migration is not soon enough to stop another landing though this time we do sink the boats on the way back and one galleon before it landed. Lose a worker on our home island due to missing the fact a knight could reach it.

Our cities are set up to build a huge number of ships. Pretty much every town is building dry docks. I let a lot of ships build anyway, but some drydocks are switched when I realize they totally extraneous. I don't think I cancelled them so they may start up again.

End: Stop building ships when I think even Mark will be happy with the number we have, as I do agree controlling the seas is important. We need troops though to take cities.

Make a landing in Forest - in part to see if the AI will attack me with such good defense. The answer so far is no. It is next to a town so I don't mind leaving the troops there until we have enough to raze the town. The troops have high defense (double forest promotions so +100% defense), so even if they are attacked, it will cost the enemy big.

My thought is that if the AI is unwilling to attack our highly fortified troops, then we have a beach head to attack from. It is in Egyptian land BTW.

Notes:
We needed enough ships to kill multiple frigates and galleons in 2 turns. That is a pretty high ship density. I think we are at that density for any boats from Egypt or Washington. Our west coast is the only area of concern - though we haven't seen any boats come at us that way - at least during my turns.

I played the wrong number of turns.

Monty is landing troops near the barbarian island. Egypt sent those two landings and then stopped. We did kill several of her ships so she may be no longer able to launch a full fleet. Not sure. Noone else showed signs of life in terms of boats.

No towns are currently building boats. We do want to change that if we start losing some. Also we could use some to the west, but I would use a western town for that.

We are building both west point in Rome and Ironworks in Hamburg. Both take a long time. This will be greatly reduced when we get Biology so we can replace all windmills with mines and then RR them.

Started building the intercontinental RR.

We just got statue of Liberty and it just occurred to me I didn't MM for it all. Next player should do so.

I leave you with a picture of our Navy. This is after pretty bad luck in several frigate battles and after I scaled back the number of towns building ships:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/MM12_AD1680.jpg

ThERat
Apr 08, 2006, 10:34 PM
got it....

we should go for destroyers, that would help a lot

Greebley
Apr 08, 2006, 10:42 PM
I considered that but Bio is more important. We control the seas now, but not the land. Bio will allow us to get our cities up in size and work more mines, etc getting the shields we need for more land units - which is really what we need right now.

I would go for Combustion in 2 turns after getting bio though. And then head for infantry and factories followed by tanks.

ThERat
Apr 09, 2006, 12:49 AM
save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/MM12_AD-1700.Civ4SavedGame)

Pre-Turn
whip colloseum in Cumae since it's unhappy anyway
decide to increase lux to 10%

IT Egypt suicides 2 connons on our forest stack

1. 1682AD
defeat Monte's caravel
whip observatory in Phrygian

IT biology is in, combustion next in 5

2. 1684AD
we have another Great Prophet, now this will be the shrine
sink a caravel and galleon
land another 6 units in Egypt

3. 1686AD
decide it's time to attack Alexandria
suicide 2 cannons, lose another cannon and Cav
defeat 9 units
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/mm121686.jpg

4. 1688AD
build church of nativity fior additional cash

5. 1690AD
send a settler over so we can found a city there, we might not survive but at least burn the AI

6. 1692AD
Egypt again founded a city on the same spot where we wanted to settle
get rid of that, land our own settler and spot a big Egyptian convoy
sink 2 frigates for the loss of 1

7. 1694AD
combustion is in, we need infantry as well, thus economics in 2 first
sink both filled galleons :)
found Brundisium on the other continent

8. 1696AD
defeat 2 knights and a cannon at Brundisium
whip a market in Phyrigian

IT the AI has been set in motion with that city since the screen zick zacks wildly, but no attacks yet.
we get economics, corporation next in 2
spot Egyptian ironclad, we better get destroyers faster

9. 1698AD
more units come at us, some stacks outside, we might lose our town, but at last the AI will burn units
defeat 2 knights and 1 cannon

IT game crashes again, reload
in a terrible RnG round, we lose almost all defenders and go 9:12 at our city, nice try that staging town, but too few units I guess, but many defenders went from 10/12hp to 0 in one fight, terrible

10. 1700AD
oil is hooked up now, we can build destroyers
Brundisium will go down in flames for sure in the IT
use some cannons to decimate the wounded stack outside killing 5 units

I still think it's worth doing this, if we ever want to take the enemy on in their land
and I don't think I want to sit on our continent and look at AC

westpoint is still under construction eta 16 turns
ironworks in 8
I would only start to upgrade once we have infantry, then we can stop research for a while
corporation done next turn, assembly line will take 8 turns

our 'staging' going down in flames city
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/mm121700.jpg

at least when I look at the power graph, Egypt has lost it's lead and will continue to do so if we keep on staging there

Greebley
Apr 09, 2006, 06:33 PM
I think I would have kept the forest infantry in the forest. That way we keep a place to land and to retreat to. Another strategy is let them attack and hurt units, but then step back under the protection of forest guards.

Ideal would be Infantry with 2 forest promotions. That would be defense 40. We can then retreat and heal and lose less units. (so what if we give up the city. It is better than letting badly injured units die).

Attacking the cities also can work well, but I would like to get Fascism before we build up too much WW.

T_McC
Apr 09, 2006, 11:13 PM
I guess I'm up again, so we'll see if I can get to it tomorrow night. The beachhead city will be a lot more stable with Infantry than Rifles. Nothing Hattie can throw at us will get decent odds unless she has Cavalry. And 3-4 Destroyers make us just about invincible on the seas.

T_McC
Apr 11, 2006, 04:04 PM
Short report:

Begin by revolting into better civics, as apparently no one else on this team will play any Anarchy turns. :rolleyes:

After the four-turn anarchy we emerge in Free Religion/Emancipation/Representation and are generating 30% more beakers at the same science rate. Still have isolated happy problems, but that will eventually be fixed. Or we'll be raising lux to 30%.

Get all of the units with movement out of our abortive beachhead city and watch it burn on the first IT.

Then in 1714 AD realize we have Frigates on Fortify not Sentry (not even sure Frigates can Sentry) and go on a Caravel-sinking binge. Didn't win a single land battle this round, and didn't fight any after the first IT.

Assembly Line comes in on the last IT and I point us towards Industrialism and Tanks/Marines. We are staging in San Fran with likely enough force to raze Hieracanopolis once we pay to upgrade Rifles to Infantry. The city defenses have already been bombed to zero.

Police State doesn't seem imperative and can probably wait for Tanks. After that we probably won't have a pressing need for better military as we should start to really ream the AI with the tech gap we've opened up.

And many superfluous rails were built.

No pictures this round since I have to run ...

Mark1031
Apr 11, 2006, 06:55 PM
Pre: Well I see we have a fair amount of WW. I was somewhat afraid of this but hopefully the AI is suffering too. I think loosing a city is a major contributor. In any case I agree with the plan of heading to tanks/marines before fascism and then basically turning off research and finishing this.

1720: Go through the cities and everything looks good. Switch a few temple builds to colosseum and adjust a few specialists. It looks like we have a nice tech lead and will even get physics first.
1722: Hatty got physics. Damn I would have liked that scientist. I was hoping for 1 more GA. Also see machine guns in some of her cities.
1724: Hatty begins a GA.
1726: Mostly building infra and some infantry.
1728: Physics in. Electricity in 5.
1730-34: hit enter.
1736: Hatty has Destroyers. Loose a frigate.
1738: Electricity in Industrialism in 7.
1740: Hatty has Communism.

Well Hatty is still researching at a fairly good clip but we will be a police state with marines and tanks in 9 turns. I mostly hit enter and built buildings. Hamburg will have the Ironworks along with factory and coal plant. I would use it for wonders. Need pentagon as a top priority, then could also use Broadway but even better to research plastics and build 3 gorges. We do not have the health in many cities to support a coal plant. WW is an issue. When I lost a frigate it jumped and we are balancing. Once we get to Fascism we can turn research down and really upgrade and go at it without so much concern. Sorry I have many workers on build trade network as I got tired of all the useless railroading. With Police state/Rushmore and marines this should start to get more interesting. As usual I built more navy.

Greebley
Apr 12, 2006, 09:38 AM
I can start up the wonders in our cities, but my primary interest is to start an invasion on the other continent. I will probably work on setting things up for ThERat.

I got it and hope to play tonight.

T_McC
Apr 12, 2006, 10:13 AM
Pre: Well I see we have a fair amount of WW. I was somewhat afraid of this but hopefully the AI is suffering too. I think loosing a city is a major contributor. ... With Police state/Rushmore and marines this should start to get more interesting.

You'd be surprised how much WW you generate by having boats in enemy waters. During the hub game we piled up a staggering amount of WW with Caravels (that can't even pillage) being in enemy waters. That's why I re-started the city bombing with Frigates and am a bit disappointed we didn't even try to burn one or two of Hattie's cities. The AI isn't suffering much from WW right now, but a few lost cities would really cramp them.

One thing we could do: Configure our GP city to maximize the chance of popping an Artist, burn a couple of Egyptian cities and culture bomb our next beachhead. WW will start to accumulate for the AI if they have to spend multiple turns in our territory before being able to attack.

Mark1031
Apr 12, 2006, 10:57 AM
I didn't know that about the boats and WW. I was thinking of just waiting for marines to attack but then I am very timid. I could have made a go at one of Hattys cities that had only 3 rifles. But I didn't want to bump up WW but I guess I don't understand it very well. I thought because we burned one of Hatty's major cities she would be suffering but she seems to be researching quite fast. We will have marines and tanks in 7. I guess there will be more action the next time I see this one.

Greebley
Apr 12, 2006, 10:33 PM
I played and went for flight after Industrialization.

Built our first tank.

Am setting up a city build. We have a settler and a great artist.

I didn't create the city yet though, I was agoing to let the next player do it.

I would suggest promoting all the Infantry in the city to have the city defense promotion before we get attacked. As most have 4 exp they can then promote again if they survive a battle and get back some HP.

Not sure how many infantry we need to have enough to hold the town.

There seem to be 3 good techs to get next - plastics, Artillery and Radio. Not sure which is best.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/MM12_AD1760.jpg

ThERat
Apr 13, 2006, 12:06 AM
got it...
I think to get any real border expansion, we need to raze Pi-Rameses

ThERat
Apr 13, 2006, 09:03 AM
save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/MM12_AD-1780.Civ4SavedGame)

Pre-Turn
San francisco is threatened by 4 cavs and we have only 1 infantry inside, hope the city can hold
sink one of Monte's ironclads

decide to wait to found the staging city only once Pi-Rameses is gone

1. 1762AD
zzz

IT defeat a Cav at SF

2. 1764AD
bombarding Pi-Rameses, plan to attack city the turn after we founded the staging city

IT we go 1:1 on Monte's destroyers
we get flight, go for radio next since we need bombers

3. 1766AD
move over 1 marine and a tank for the attack on Pi-Rameses
send out a tank to pillage

4. 1768AD
tank pillages rail and defeats gredadier moving next to Pi-rameses, found staging city
go 1:1 to sink a Monte destroyer

IT Hatty only defeat our tank and didn't move out of Pi-Rameses, need to wait a turn to attack
she has artillery however :eek: , and shreds our frigates with destroyers

5. 1770AD
no attack on Pi-Rameses, too many units inside

IT units are moving out now, more frigates get shredded, we need more naval power
unfortunately, other enemy units are rushing through Pi-rameses making it impossible to raze town :gripe:

6.1772AD
oh my, Hatty has upgraded all her cannons to artillery, this will be very tough :eek:

7. 1774AD
its seems we have to deal with a huge stack next to our staging city, how big the stack, only Firaxis will know...
dicovery a big stack of 3 Monte transports about to land in our west, we have no navy to defend there at all

attack Pi-Rameses via the sea defended by 5 units
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/mm121774.jpg

scramble some units in the west

IT hell breaks lose as we defend pretty well against 50 Egyptian units, but after that at least 40 Monte units rip our heavily wounded troops apart

I had no clue whatsoever how many units were in that stack, absolutely ridiculous feature, Civ4 is so difficult to play in AW once you face many units
end of the story, our town is razed and with it many units, WW will prevail
:spank:

8. 1776AD
judging from the huge stacks that are all around,we wouldn't have lived much longer there anyway, maybe we should simply send in stacks and raze their cities first, starting with marines

now need to take care of the 12 landed units next to Phyrigian
manage to take out 8/12 units with 4 cannons left

IT an English galleons appears

9. 1778AD
sink the loaded galleon with a transport we do have around by luck
defeat the remaining 4 cannons

10. 1780AD
our frigates have almost been completely wiped out by destroyers, we need a better navy
our big attack force was reduced to dust, we need more attackers
the bad part was that exactly once we founded the staging town, Egypt got artillery which reduced our infantry too much

I guess my turn was a complete failure...
radio and bombers are in next turn, Rome is building an airport at the moment, Antium changed to wall street
pentagon is in already

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/mm121780.jpg

Greebley
Apr 13, 2006, 10:39 AM
On the cavalry at SF, they were pretty injured - I used our cannon and Cat vs them. I expected them to lose. We should reinforce that town though as it can be hit by units with no warning.

Egypt used up a lot of units too however. Maybe we shoud try to go for Razing cities. I am worried though that every time we get next to a city the AI will bombard our stacks with artillery making them easy to kill. Maybe we should continue with the towns but use bombers as well to hurt incoming AI.

I think I would go for plastics next to get 3 gorges. Looks like we are going to be in for a long haul. Follow that with Artillery which I think we need.

Mark1031
Apr 13, 2006, 05:12 PM
Welcome to AWE. I played a game like this previously and got a huge stack of superior units shredded when trying a landing. I think our best bet is Naval power and marines. We can take out the major coastal cities with marines and naval bombardment but this will be a long tough slog. Also using air power. I will not be able to play till Monday so you can skip me or swap if it isn’t going too fast.

Greebley
Apr 13, 2006, 05:37 PM
Marines may not be terrible, but it suffers the weakness that we cannot get inland cities nor do we deal with units. It may be nice to soften up Egypt (for example) however.

Another option is to not go for the strongest civ but to attack a lesser one. We could clear off that weaker civ without the huge Egyptian stacks comming at us.

We may also be able to do both starting first with your Marines and then going for the weaker civ. If we ruin roads around a bait city we can use bombers in a city with roads cleared out to slow incoming units. By the time they get to us we can kill them.

A final alternative would be to switch civics after we get Pentagon to start with 10 experience. Then build infantry with 3 city promotions and let them come. They are almost guaranteed to take higher losses than us.

Mark1031
Apr 13, 2006, 06:38 PM
Well I see a 2 pronged approach. 1st we weaken the leading civs by taking out what coastal cities we can with Marines. Then when we have a huge (I mean really huge like 50 troops with transport) we start with America up in the tundra. If we can get 2 loads of troops (100) up there before the main powers converge we will be OK. Roads up to the beachhead will need to be cut and it will need to have limited access via flatland.

T_McC
Apr 14, 2006, 10:18 AM
I see the game and will get to it eventually. I suspect things aren't going to be moving too quickly this weekend. :)

Mark1031
Apr 15, 2006, 11:18 AM
Since this will be a long haul I think we should patch unless anyone has strong objections.

T_McC
Apr 15, 2006, 11:55 AM
I would object to the patch. The rules of Epic length games changed fairly strongly in the patch, and it seems the changes affect AW games more than others.

The biggest difference is that troops cost 50% more than regular speed (just like buildings) rather than 25%. Now everything is 50% more expensive/requires 50% more beakers/workers take 50% longer to do stuff ... so the only difference between Epic and Normal is the relative speed of troop movement. Otherwise Epic is Standard, but with more tedium. Better balanced, but much weaker reason to exist.

Had a change of plans this weekend and won't be able to get to this before Monday.

T_McC
Apr 17, 2006, 10:40 PM
So here's a quick report:

We lost a bunch of Frigates and a few land units. Egypt lost Hieracanopolis. :)

Our first Bombers are off the lines and are primarily based in San Francisco. Other military builds are light in Tanks, heavy in Marines. We also have our first, much-needed Battleships.

We popped a Great Merchant on the last turn! :rolleyes: No idea what productive to do with him, maybe save for a GA?

Fascism was acquired and Police State revolted into. Lux is down to 30% (from 50%) with scattered Happy problems. We should be able to drop to 10% by the end of the next round when all of our Wonder builds complete.

Egypt just acquired Rocketry/SAM Infantry, so maybe we want to re-target and hit the Aztecs in our float-by campaign. I'm figuring Marines to open a Beachhead and then Bombers and Tanks to speed inland.

This is the current situation. Trouble is brewing in Tlaxcala, we can expect a big landing in 1-2 turns (likely San Fran). The AI is not shy about amphibiously assaulting the Jungle/Hill, but it would be very costly to them to try that now (Guerrilla II Marine). If that forces them to move 1 more square to try an amphibious landing against the city, it may allow our Battleship to make the scene and potentially allow us to sink all those troops at sea. We have enough Destroyers/Frigates to do this, but I would just as soon not take dice rolls to do it. Battleships = Collateral damage (but I think we have to promote them as such).

We are in no danger of losing SF, and the AI hasn't landed anywhere else.
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/7500/incomingaztec6el.th.jpg (http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=incomingaztec6el.jpg)

T_McC
Apr 18, 2006, 09:38 AM
I played my turns in 1.52, but I'll agree to patching now.

Mark1031
Apr 18, 2006, 12:34 PM
1800: switch Research to plastics for 3 gorges. I donít see the urgent need for rocketry. WW is very costly @30 lux in police state we still have unhappy in some major cities. Rome and Hamburg get switched to jails.

IT: Hatty sinks one of our destroyers. No movement from Tlaxcala.

1802: Sink the offending destroyer and bomb some Aztec tiles.

1804: Moving troops. More bombing. I donít understand what we will do with all these bombers we are making. They cant go on carriers and our current outpost have limited access. I guess they are for when we make land but I see that as quite a while from now.

1806: Our bombers are getting intercepted by the Egyptians. I would prefer to have marines and battleships. There are a ton of coastal cities to take out. Gather together 3 transports of marines and tanks and head for El Amarna

IT: We get a modest landing at Aryan of Aztec troops. 2 cav and 2 cannon. Now I see the use of bombers. Collateral in a stack. Nice Iíve never used bombers in civIV before. That was fun, After bombing used infantry and rifle to take out the cavs and use longbows to take out 2 cannons at 63% odds. No need to blow $$ on upgrades.

1808: ZZZ

1810: Landings at Cerci (American- 2 cannon and a rifle) and Asryan (Aztec-4 cav, 4 cannon) Take out the Americans loosing a 2 Prats. Aztecs are riped with bombers and I take out all but 2 cannon.
1812: Fall of El-Amarna. Battleship has bombarded to 0% defenses by the time the troops arrive. Send in a suicide cannon 1st to soften things up and it retreats doing a bit of collateral. Marines are 95% vs full health riflemen when they have pinch promotion. Take out 2 rifles, 1 SAM, and 2 arty with no losses and burn El-Amarna to the ground. Our ships do a Donald Rumsfeld and leave a lone marine on the Egyptian shores for peacekeeping duty (our generals did not ask for more troops).

1814: Our valiant marine dies taking a cav and rifle with him. I guess we didnít bring enough peacekeeping forces. Oh well who wants peace anyway. OK I was not taking Washington seriously enough. He has a nice sized landing force headed to Cerci Ėsee pic. Reposition a bunch of bombers and move some troops up that way.

1816: Bomb Washingtonís stack and take out all but 3 cannons. No losses. Complete Eiffel tower and Broadway. Start on Rock&Roll.

1818: Clean up Washingtonís landing. Bomb stuff moving marine task force toward Memphis, Hattys last Major coastal city.

1820: Plastics in and start to finish up research on rocketry. We could really use medicine for hospitals and red cross would be nice. I assume after that we are going for composites. 3-Gorges in 20. I am farming over a couple towns in Hamburg. I think we should configure it for max shields.

I really learned a lot this turn. I do not generally fight modern wars. Marines and bombers are great.. I have been building mostly marines and battleships. I would really like to control our waters and have time to sink or at least respond to landings.

Note: There is a huge amphibious assault force headed for Memphis which should be more than enough to take it as it currently is. After that I donít know. Aztecs have infantry but Hatty doesnít. Washington was starting to be a pain but he is pretty far behind. It might be best to leave Aztecs for now and take on George. He has mostly coastal cities that should be easy to take and I think that would be a good place to begin our transcontinental conquest. Good luck

Greebley
Apr 18, 2006, 06:12 PM
Ok, I got it.

ThERat
Apr 18, 2006, 06:28 PM
I found out in DG02, that artillery and later tanks will make the huge difference to winning the modern war.
Do we have artillery yet?

Greebley
Apr 18, 2006, 06:45 PM
If we don't I will start researching it when the current tech finishes. I also think it is a key tech.

Mark1031
Apr 18, 2006, 09:09 PM
Arty if fine, but with tanks and bombers I don't see it as that important. If we get to modern armor (composites & computers) it will really speed things along.

Greebley
Apr 18, 2006, 11:31 PM
I have played.


Early: Memphis was razed without loss.

Mid: Went for Artillery and got it. I personally am a big fan of Artillery. For one thing they knock the hp down a good bit lower than Bombers which stop at 50%. They also seem to do more colateral damage and are nice if one takes the city attack. They can also attack from a boat though they will tend to lose if you do that.

Late: Set up yet again a town for ThERat. I tried to generate a FOD (though it may be a FONAC (funnel of nicks and cuts)). We have several marines in forest so if they do attack they will take heavy losses. This is in Monte's land.

It appears England and America have ROP with Monte but Egypt does not. This is good because if we can have those three run out of units, then we can handle Egypt eventually. We can even carve out several cities using Monte as shield so that Egypt will not be able to easily kick us off.

The English stack is large containing ThERat's favorite ... For that reason I printed a picture of the English units so that we can see exactly what is in the stack. Note that every unit in the list seems to be in that square. I have already started bombing them in case they decide to attack our Marines, it will be even harder for them.

Here is a picture of how I hope the units come at us and the picture mentioned above.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/MM12_AD1845.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/MM12_AD1845a.jpg

ThERat
Apr 19, 2006, 10:44 AM
save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/MM12_AD-1855.Civ4SavedGame)

Pre-Turn
this seems to be a repeating pattern, Greebley setting up staging towns for me that I get razed
hope this time will be different though

MM our cities and stop working tiles like 2f1c and change for higher shields even if we stop growth
there is not point to work such 'less useful' tiles in my mind

IT well, the southern block is breached as we go 11:9, not that impressive after all

1. 1846AD
I don't think we can hold that city and rather use the units to raze enemy towns from the sea for the time being

2. 1847AD
evacuate that city after the second forest stack was blown to pieces
I think we need to build a huge stack and move it through enemy territory pillaging and razing along the way
raze Tlaxcala along the way
take out a pesky Monte destroyer

3. 1848AD
next target is Tlateloco, bomb units down to 50% health
take out 4 units but town stands for now
spot an American destroyer near our land , sink it with a battleship

4. 1849AD
computers are in, refirgeration next
our town still stands though there is no unit inside, but a huge stack from Egypt 1 tile next to it, though faster units

could have taken it, some serious AI :smoke: here
sink a lone Monte transport, how silly was that?

attack Tlateloco again, defeat 6 units, then lose an inf at 97% odds doing zero damage?
check combat log and we lost 5 round in a row, ridiculous
then lose a 80% tank and fail to raze town

5. 1850AD
next attempt to raze that resilient city
defeat 8 units and raze city to the ground

6. 1851AD
take Reading to get bombers within reach of other Monte towns

need to increase lux to 50%, but we shoudln't be at war for too long

7. 1852AD
true enough we can just hit Xochicalco from Reading
defeat 5 units, 1 unit left inside

8. 1853AD
refirgeration for +1 naval movement is in, genetics for more health next
we have a Great Prophet, do not know what to do with him, leave him next to Hamburg
defeat 3 more units and raze Xochicalco

advance tworads Tlacopan and bomb defenses down, our bombers can't reach it

9. 1854AD
wait for more units to arrive for a turn to attack, at the same time sedn a settler combo to the south to claim one Island

to be able to bomb from the other side

10. 1855AD
go for Tlacopan now, soften defenses with 2 artillery
defeat 5 units and Tlacopan is gone as well

move forwards to the south and also land settler on that 1 tile Island
we should move our bombers there next turn after founding the city
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/mm121855.jpg

Mark1031
Apr 19, 2006, 12:25 PM
OK I think we need to get on the same page with this one. I think we have this in the bag but let’s get it done efficiently. I would like it if we all get on the same page and pursue a common strat. Could we all check in on a strat before we move on. We have had 2 failed landing attempts which wastes troops and can bump WW. Don’t get me wrong, I think this is great as it shows that the AI has much improved relative to the civ3 days of army cover and no AI use of arty and we are all learning new things about the game. Here is my take, I have played 1 private game of AWE to this stage and had the same trouble we are having.

1: We cannot use the strat of letting the AI throw units against our superior units fortified in cities or defensive terrain, this will definitely not work in civ4 at this point in the game as the AI will use Arty to shread us before attacking. That city defense 3 marine looks a lot more vulnerable at ½ the HP than at full strength. Therefore we need to destroy the stacks before they attack the beachhead city.

2: Each AI will converge on the city with about 50 units each give or take. That means we must destroy 200 units.

3: AI will heal units before moving further toward your city so the flow of units can be controlled by bombing stacks on their way to attack.

My plan:

Research: Go for composites! We can live with health concerns for now. We must press our military tech advantage.

Builds: Almost exclusively tanks and bombers. Tanks will upgrade to MA which will be crushing. Once we destroy their excess troops it will be a cakewalk.

Military: I’d say our beachhead city should be New York. It will delay the convergence of the Ais and give us time to control the flow. We want to fill this city with tanks and bombers. We should raise DC along the way to clear culture space. Use one bomber each turn for recon and then bomb approaching stacks so that the number of troops that move up to the gates of the city will be manageable each turn.

This may not be the best plan but please let’s get some discussion and all get on the same page for some strat.

Greebley
Apr 19, 2006, 12:50 PM
IT well, the southern block is breached as we go 11:9, not that impressive after all


How the heck did the AI do this? We had a really good defense. It was a mountain/forest with most troops having an extra +50% due to the forest promotions. The 5 marines therefore had a defense of 54. I had bombed most troops to be injured, yet the AI still cuts through it without difficulty?

Did they throw a lot of cannon against it first? Even if they did they must have gotten very lucky. Even at half strength their defense is 27. I am not sure I would judge the AI as "smart" if they can just cut through such high defense with such little effort.

Very disappointing. I was hoping for high casualties if they tried this.

===========

While we have suffered losses doing the town gambits, it also greatly weakens the AI strengths, so they are not entirely worthless. We have to do this at some point anyway.

I am ready to agree that trying a town isn't efficient enough (especially when we don't follow by another attempt quickly - this method requires burning the enemy troops so you can then start taking the cities). The marines and razing all coastal cities will not lessen enemy troops, but it will at least slow them down keep. We still will have major work to do. Rats idea of a big stack to raze inland cities is probably worthwhile to try. The biggest problems with just razing coastal cities is that most of them aren't easy to get to and aren't the biggest threats.

Mark1031
Apr 19, 2006, 01:08 PM
I am ready to agree that trying a town isn't efficient enough especially when we don't follow by another attempt quickly.

Actually I think we are ready to do a town. I just think we will need it to have time to come out of resistance and expand boarders before the huge stacks arrive. It will also need about 20-30 tanks and 15-20 bombers and some assorted marines along with a short resupply route. It should be surrounded by flatlands and roads outside 1st ring culture should be cut. I therefore choose NY because it is far from the major civs and if we destroy DC it should have some culture space. Once the AI's blow their excess troops and we have MA it should be over very quickly.

Will the AI ignore a large stack in it's territory? I'm not sure but it could get shreaded. Anyone know what parameters govern this as it would be a good strat (like armies) if true.

Greebley
Apr 19, 2006, 02:28 PM
I do think whatever we decide that we should continue in Monte's lands.

Not having to deal with Egypt right away is a big advantage. We can handle the weaker 3 civs first and then prepare for the larger Egyptian forces later.

Monte's current forces are currently somewhat depleted. I am unsure on what if anything we killed in the English large stack.

Mark1031
Apr 19, 2006, 05:19 PM
That sounds reasonable. I would suggest Atzcaportzalco. If we keep the hill blocked and force them onto the flat tundra it should be easy pickens. Still we should be prepared to face about 150 troops over say 10 turns. I would not go until we can get about 30 tanks into the city and maybe 15-20 bombers.

ThERat
Apr 19, 2006, 06:05 PM
Greebley, I don't know why they did cut that stack that easily, but they threw the usual stuff at us, first cannons and artillery, followed by waves of attackers. nearly every single of their Cavs retreated, around 10 units. So we faced 30 units, enough to blow us to pieces.

I think overall, we can raze most of Monte's towns via sea. Simple settle around the continent and ship the bombers/marines and blow their defenses. The powergraph shows that Monte is really suffering, I mean it.

Thus, we can almost wipe them out, once we have all those coastal towns done, they have only few inland cities. Land a big stack of combined arms and shred them.
Then move towards Egyot while taking America's and England's coastal towns at the same time. That should work.

By the way I went for refrigeration for the added health possibilities and the +1 naval movement.

T_McC
Apr 19, 2006, 11:16 PM
1855 AD (0)
Quick once-over. Agree to continue smacking the Aztecs around.

Keep research on Genetics, then we'll head for Modern Armor.

1858 AD (3)
Monty is down 2 cities, and Liz will lose one next turn. Missed an American landing, so we got a little bit pillaged.

1862 AD (7)
Well, Monty no longer has any coastal cities. We'll make landfall in the near future and finish him off.

1863-65 AD
Boring staging for simultaneous strikes to finish the Aztecs and start on the Americans.

We have a dozen units set to invade America, with about eight more backing them up. We're transport-limited everywhere.

The landing group is primarily off the Aztec coast, with the Settler coming up near Norwich. There are 27 units to accompany the Settler, with Bomber support. I doubt this settlement is going to fail. :) Our Bombers are almost exclusively in Tzintuntzen.

Modern Armor in about 9 turns, but we'll get another Great Person in 1. If it isn't a Merchant or Priest we can start another GA.

Not a lot of tactics this round. Boats bomb city defense to zero, Bombers lay in 50% damage, Marines wipe out city.

Here's a thought: Re-base the Bombers to San Fran(?) and we can reach the garrison at Teotihuacan. By injuring all of those units on the same turn we found our new city we should be able to keep Monty's forces from attacking and give ourselves time to cut the roads. Liz doesn't have Artillery, Hattie shouldn't have a lot of spare troops close by, and Abe will have bigger problems to deal with.

http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/4643/armygroupw6uj.th.jpg (http://img47.imageshack.us/my.php?image=armygroupw6uj.jpg) http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/5448/armygroupn6ms.th.jpg (http://img47.imageshack.us/my.php?image=armygroupn6ms.jpg)

Mark1031
Apr 20, 2006, 02:15 PM
Pre: Everything looks good to go. 2 Pronged invasion. At this point I guess we have more than enough for this. Should cause some confusion for the AI.

1866: Pop an artist in Mygar, very nice. I can’t think of a better time for a GA. Sorry to hog the GA but it is perfectly timed and will get us to MA quicker. Cities are in very nice shape. Move some troops around.

1867: Satellites in and composites in 7 (later cut to 6). BTW Hatty has open boarders with Monty now not that I think it matters.
I feel a little strange destroying my nations capitol (DC) but it falls easily with 1 arty retreating and one winning at long odd. Marines are at 88-99% vs what is left and none are lost.

1868: OK here we go again. Found Caesarea on the tundra hill in former Aztecia. Cut hill road leading to the city.

1869: Strange, there is no movement of Aztec troops toward our beachhead.

1870: Still no movement. Take NY for the loss of 1 Arty and Keep it! We now have 2 beachheads on opposite sides of the landmass. Move about ½ of the bomber force to NY. Recon shows absolutely nothing moving toward Ceseara.

1871: Nothing. I am getting impatient and worried they will not throw their troops at our cities. Will get composites in 2 and upgrade.

1872: Pathetic stack of 4 cavs arrive at Caesarea. No Problem.

1873: Composites in Research->0 and switch some cities to wealth for upgrades. I don’t think we need mechs with this kind of tech advantage and I would like to upgrade all the tanks I have been building. Finally Monty sends a decent stack of about 20 units. OK here we go Recon shows 2 uncountable stacks from Liz headed toward Caeseara. They don’t stand a chance.

1874: Destroy about 20 of Monty’s best troops, no losses. MA vs ½ HP infantry on flatland is 100%. Now see Washington has an uncountable SoD headed to NY ETA 2-3 turns. I don’t know where the bulk of Hattys troops are. She has some small stacks running around but not the big one that I know must be out there.

1875: This is fun. Destroy 55 English/Aztec troops without a single loss. Not 1!
In more weedy news Hatty had apparently landed troops at Arretum/Rome on the previous turn that I didn’t see. I really hate the notification of this. Scramble to avoid any major damage. It should really jump you to cities where troops are in the culture radius. Who can see that little red notification when a million things are going on and it only stays up for a few seconds. I don’t think we are in any danger but a larger stack could have been trouble. I was getting lazy patrolling our waters.

Summary: Aztec troops destroyed. Last stack of English troops about to enter the meat grinder at Ceaseara. Washington’s SoD headed to NY for disposal. Hatty’s SoD is MIA or maybe non existent. Good luck. With MA and bombers I would be surprised to see this again.

T_McC
Apr 20, 2006, 04:19 PM
:lol:
You know, the troops were gathered in the middle of the E coast of Monte's land for a reason. I never suspected you would run to the corner to hide from the AI.
:lol:

Each AI has a single stack of stuff they've built and upgraded through the game. Once they have to build even Medieval units from scratch they're pretty hopeless even with the Emperor discount. They can't/won't cope with WW and the AI worker algorithms really underemphasize production. So this one is Blitzkrieg once Abe's stack goes away. It'll probably get back to Mark simply because of the size of the AI continent and there not being any 3-move units in Civ IV.

It's probably worth separating the Artillery and Marines in one stack, and using the Bombers as artillery support for the Tanks/MA. I doubt we need to keep any cities from here on out as long as we have a few Medic units to keep the troops moving. I suspect the AI research rate has dried up, or will very shortly due to WW.

Greebley
Apr 20, 2006, 05:51 PM
Ok, I got it.

ThERat
Apr 20, 2006, 07:10 PM
I think our various previous landings have at least softened the AI to the point where they can now not respond properly any longer.
The AI is unable to fight a proper modern war.
What looks impressive during midgame, really falls apart in the late game. Almost every properly played warmonger game I have seen, the power graph goes exponential for the player while the AI is simply lost.

The one thing I learned is the marines raze coastal towns strategy. It's a nice thing to do to soften the enemy.

Greebley
Apr 20, 2006, 08:50 PM
I definitely agree on the softening. It would have been more efficient to go for all coastal cities and then soften the AI, but not by a whole lot and I thought the town attempts were instructive even if none of them really worked. The AI will not just go around. I am curious if the problem was simply that the number of troops wasn't sufficient, or whether the AI will always try to cut through rather than going around. I am guessing the first.

I think I will start playing this and hopefully post tonight.

Greebley
Apr 21, 2006, 01:17 AM
Its really late so a quick report.

Combat was pretty much straight forward. We massively outpowered the AI so it was a simple matter of conquering our foes. I attacked equally from several fronts to speed the process.

America has a single city left and Aztecs have 2. Egypt and England only lost minor cities.

I wasn't sure at first how long the game would last so I decided to switch civics. We now get 3 promotions (10 exp) in all cities with barracks for our Modern Armor.

We were building wealth which didn't seem worthwhile to me. I switched cities to producing Modern Armor. I would rather take longer to upgrade the tanks, but end up with a more tanks than we would have had because we were building them. Running low science was sufficient. I also bagged the banks for the most part.

I suspect we will win in 10-20 turns.

One reason the AI tends to fall apart in the end game is because our production really takes off. We often own a whole continent, but are still building buildings. Once we concentrate on troops we go shooting up in strength.

I will post a zoomed out picture and the power graph for the last 150 years.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/MM12_AD1885.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/MM12_AD1885a.jpg

ThERat
Apr 21, 2006, 05:24 AM
Pre-Turn
we make a lot of money with no research :)
we seems to be keeping all cities, so domination is the goal
after having a look at our cities and the front, press enter

1. 1886AD
find out from the massages that one of our captured town has been taken by Egypt

raze Kahun, raze Chalco (the captured city of the last IT)
raze Cempoala, the last Aztec city on the main continent
found Palmyra and Signia

2. 1887AD
take Chicago and America is gone :)
capture Liverpool and keep it due to nice location

3. 1888AD
capture Abydos and Pithom

IT Egypt and England fight their last battle as they obliterate out arty stack with 10 units
Hatty also completes Apollo, does she know this won't help her?

4. 1889AD
raze Oxford
raze Elephantine in Egypts heart

5. 1890
capture Newcastle
England is in real trouble as we capture London, capture offshore Dover
take out Tamuin, but Monte is still alive???

IT at York we get attacked by 7 artillery, where did England get them from all of a sudden?

6.1891AD
capture Heliopolis, Busiris and Thebes, Egypts core is no more

7.1892AD
capture Buto
take out Tula in the Arctic and Monte is finally gone
raze Warwick and Canterbury

8. 1893AD
defeat 8 units in Byblos and the Egyptians are gone as well, England left with a few tough cities
defeat 9 units in York and capture it as well
raze Leeds in the Arctic and England has 2 cities left

9. 1894AD
we now have 63% of the land, very close to domination
take Coventry
unfortunately Hasting can only be reached by 7 units next turn and it has 9 defenders

10. 1895AD
well, we get this message
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/mm12victory.jpg

our score, not too shabby
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/mm12victoryb.jpg

the replay for you guys (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/MM12_AD-1895_21.Civ4Replay)

ThERat
Apr 21, 2006, 05:25 AM
I think this game has shown that good discussions can make a Civ4 SG successful. Of course, we did have a very strong start.

:goodjob: Team

friskymike
Apr 21, 2006, 05:44 AM
I really enjoyed lurking this and reading the strategy discussions, nice one.

Mark1031
Apr 21, 2006, 10:50 AM
Very nice game:goodjob: . I think we had a great team and I also learned a lot, eg. I had never used bombers before:crazyeye: . The Marine is quite nice and I had never really made much use of this before either. I see a major weakness in the AI here. They will take all of their excess troops and attack any city they can reach on their continent. While this is better than the trickle of Civ3 troops and can be a danger if you let them use arty it is not a good move when the city is packed with tanks and bombers. Better to coax our troops out away from bomber cover or beeline to some counter tech. Also, why don't they keep all those excess troops in the coastal cities. This would have made it much harder. Game made it clear how much tech is king in Civ4. Once you open up a military tech lead it is all over.

Greebley
Apr 21, 2006, 01:37 PM
Ya a very good game.

I wonder if AWE will become the standard like civ3. My guess is that it will depend very much on map type. Maps with very little water I think are much harder - I think because the AI are not limited in their growth.

I also have found that a tech lead is huge. Learning the power of Marines was definitely interesting. I also didn't realize you can amphibious assault with any unit at only a 50% penalty. I think I will be using this for civs that are behind. 50% penalty is not that large. Can you actually capture a city with a non-amphibious unit from water? I would guess you can but I want to test it.

Establishing a beach-head on the other continent is definitely something I would like to continue to experiment with. In this game they all failed. It seems there are 3 ways to go:
1) take out coastal cities
2) build a big stack to raze cities
3) grab a city and hold it.

I feel I will need more experience to determine which of these a particular situation calls for -when will a stack be attacked and when not for example.

T_McC
Apr 21, 2006, 03:05 PM
Heh. I don't think AWE will become standard as the key to this game were the absurdly overpowered Praetorians. Yeah, if you can wipe out two civs (including the absolute worst possible opponent for Praets, Mali) before Longbows and thus be 3-4X as large as any AI you've got a pretty good chance to win.

Rome having access to Praets by the 2nd researched tech, and the first researched tech granting the ability to essentially turn 4 worker-turns into an 8-attack unit makes for an unbalancingly strong early rush. Look at the German and Malinese starts. Those were pretty good locations for capitals/2nd cities (good food and Copper) and they still got wiped out. Praets also hurt the AI because the proper defense is to build a monolithic army (Axes, Axes, and more Axes) since anything else at that stage of the game is cannon fodder, and the human will be building a monolithic army as well. I believe the Rock-Paper-Scissors model was created as a way to cover for the inability to program the AI to use any real military tactics and reward the much simpler to code, "build variety". Variety vs. Praets is a bad idea.

Greebley
Apr 21, 2006, 04:18 PM
I do agree it is much easier for Rome and probably Persia to handle 2 AI. The real question is whether one can wipe out 2 emp civs when playing the other civs without stunting ones growth too badly. If so then AWE on continents will be doable because you have a larger empire. Of course, the start will make as big a difference in games as it does in Civ3 (i.e. the easy and hard AWE games in Civ3 depending on starting location, resources, etc will also occur in Civ4).

Mark1031
Apr 21, 2006, 04:41 PM
The goal here was to test the liimits. Rome is ideal and we had a good start, went through only maybe 3-4 to find it though so it is not that unusual. Also our continent looked a bit better than the other one and they got stuck with Monty. It was all random so that was just the luck of the draw but he started a war with everyone else so that I'm sure helped us. I think this could be done with Persia and Incans as well as Rome. You could do it with 1civ on your starting continent with most any other civ. Maybe custom 3 continents. Also I think you must have tech trading off to make a go at this level. I don't think AW is winnable without the tech lead in civ4.

Greebley
Apr 21, 2006, 05:42 PM
Ya, turning tech trading off may very well be required to win AWE. Researching everything yourself is slow vs AI trades and building more cities doesn't always give you faster research.

Gotag
Apr 21, 2006, 06:19 PM
A well played and crushing victory. Kudos to all involved!!

Gotag

troilus
Apr 22, 2006, 01:58 PM
Great game guys, very exciting. IT all seems so logical, I don't know why I can't pull stuff like that off when I play! :rolleyes:

Question: Do you think AWE, with tech trading off, is easier or harder than AWM with tech trading on?

Greebley
Apr 22, 2006, 10:45 PM
I think AWE with no tech is harder due to the production advantage. I don't think the lead AI research slower in AWE (with no trades) compared to AWM (with trades). The biggest difference is that certain civs fall further behind so in AWE there can be easier targets.