Term 1
General Forum for the Office of Domestic Policy
Currently Run by: Memphus

Please put any comments or suggetions in here pertaining to the current way the Office of Domestic Policy is being run.

Please mention anything else regarding the Office of Domestic Policy in this thread
(i.e. you would like a poll for what we should research next, etc.)

Congratulations, Memphus, on winning the "election." The threads you've set up look great. I'm looking forward to having you as the Domestic Minister.

Congratulations, Memphus, on winning the "election." The threads you've set up look great. I'm looking forward to having you as the Domestic Minister.

Nothing gets better than winning a race when you don't compete agaisn't anyone :shake:

In any case I will do my best, with my knowledge of [civ4] to help
Epsilon Team get off to a great start.

I had mentioned:

I intend to appoint a 2 team members to the Department of Industry and Department of Economy, to allow for specialized focus on critical early game strategies thus allowing a :traderoute: triangle :traderoute: of :hammers: POWER :hammers: in the The Office of Domestic Policy!

Now I guess I worded this wrong :stupid: but if it is set in stone then that is what I will do.

What I meant to say is I would appoint 2 team members to the Office of Domestic Policy, where they would each focus on Department of Industry and Department of Economy.

The reason for this being, in the first 20 turns
The Department of Great People -should have no action
The Department of the Interior -will be relatively quite until turn ~>12
(depending if we decide on building a worker first or not)

So with all that being said I have two people in mind, But first I want to know who is interested in holding a vote for important Domestic issues?

meaning there is three of us who will vote one way or the other, after a general discussion has taken place on hot topics which require a vote

Let's use an example to clear it up:
Voting and discussion issue: tech to reasearch first
Non Voting issue: science percentage slider for first turn (it will be 100%, we can discuss this if anyone wants but unless you have a VERY strong arguement I can't see my mind changing)

I am interested in holding the Department of Economy position, though if someone with Civ4 experience (since I don't own the game and don't intend to until after my wedding - 8/2007) is interested, I have no problem with them doing the job.

I am interested in holding the Department of Economy position, though if someone with Civ4 experience (since I don't own the game and don't intend to until after my wedding - 8/2007) is interested, I have no problem with them doing the job.

Other Player: To possibly even never have played [civ4], or very little experience with it and can cast an opinion on which way to go wieghing the alternatives evenly. Hence the :traderoute: triangle :traderoute: of :hammers: Power :hammers:
I.E. The deciding vote on opening building a worker and not a warrior, because this is one of our large discussions for the first 20 turns.

Definetly Fits your situation :D

I am sorry I should have mentioned a Timeline for expressing interest:
all Players Who are interested need to speak up :wavey: by Monday March 10 12:00PM GMT -6:00

After That I'll announce the appointments :)

Well, I think some congratulations are in order!

Memphus just took home the Bronze Medal in the 3rd Civ4 GOTM!
(although, I’m sure this honor pales in comparison to being elected Domestic Minister for Epsilon team! ;) )

Seriously – congratulations! :salute:

This round is on me. :beer: [party] :band:

I don't like spamming :mischief: ... but next round on me :beer: Good One Memphus :salute:

Thanks

:thanx:

Everthing went well in that game, but can mostly be attributed to my opening 100 turns which were the best I have ever played. (inclduing a lucky break of writing from a hut :blush:)

In any case I am still missing a second interested person. Come on !!! It will be fun!!!

BTW We need a provost ASAP :lol:

Hey - I'd be interested in helping out with the Domesitc Ministry if you'd like Memphus. I'll do whatever!

I'm currently serving as Domestic Minister of team MIA in the Civ3 MTDG, but I've only played a handful of PBEM Civ4 games - so I think I'll only be modestly useful.

Let me know how I can serve!
:salute:

Alright the appointments are Done

General_W
gbno1fan

Both now hold a vote for major descisions to be made by
the Office of Domestic Policy

General_W I am forward to your multiplayer experience and militaristic (from what I gather so far) ideology that will help reinforce the important of early militaristic build choices.

gbno1fan Having little [civ4] experience you will hold the voice of reason always questioning General_W and myself, to make sure that the critical descisions are well thought out

By my Calculations we will have approximately 7 large votable (by our collective of 3) descisions this term.
Being:
1. First tech to reasearch
==>with options being Bronze Working or not Bronze Working
==> options could include fishing if we are on a coast with resources(i.e. clam)
2. First build option
==> with options being worker or warrior
3. Second Build option
==>warrior (possibly with a worker or settler chop switch to get the city growing)
==> again could be a boat if we have a water resource
4. Second tech to Reasearch
==>options are too far to predict now
5. Third build option
==>too far to predict
6. Third Tech option
7. Fourth Tech/Fourth Build option start to be carried over into next term

Looking forward to working with you and learning from you Memphus! :salute:

I hope my Multi-player experience will be helpful… but it always changes so much based on who you're playing… people just aren't as predictable as the AI.

You may actually be surprised to find that I have a more peaceful style of play. I prefer to build overwhelming economic and scientific dominance… and then use my military to crush people when they are already hopelessly behind! :evil:
That kind of economic dominance will be harder to achieve in MP… maybe impossible with 5 teams. So it'll be interesting to see what happens!!
(You are sorta correct though – when I've played Qin Shi Haung, I've pretty much taken the advent of Cho Ku Nus as a greenlight to conquer my nearest neighbor. When playing him, I've generally oriented my play towards being able to run a burst of war mongering as soon as I get my hands on those beauties, and then slip back in to peace until I'm way ahead of everyone else.)

As for your questions… I'm really looking forward to talking about them more… but any discussion will be largely useless until we can see our start location.

However, broadly, I'm a big fan of getting Bronze working asap – unless there's a couple cows or something nearby and we could really benefit from getting pasture first… or some such thing. BW is also the first step on our path to Cho Ku Nus. :yup:
I've found, especially in Multiplayer, that finding and locating the key resources… like Bronze, Iron, and later oil and coal – and even more important than in single player.

In multiplayer, building a worker first always makes me nervous. It's not like we can restart if we get an unlucky early barbarian, or if we start closer than expected to a hostile neighbor. Also – early competition for huts can be brutal… and if we don't get a warrior or two asap, the civs with scouts will get all of them.

Just my 2 cents for now!

We should probably wait for the patch before we decide on a Worker+Bronze opening. There have been a lot of complaints about the power of chopping, and they may have nerfed it.

Do we have any rumers on the timeline for that? I think I may have heard 1-3 weeks has anyone heard anything more specific?

I heard 2 weeks ...

:bump:

Well now that the patch is out, it seems like we can start to plan a little bit of our strategy :)

Number 1: I just play a game post patch that I played prepatch and 10 less hammers per chop hurts, ALOT so my recommendation now is to to not go the heavy chopping route, but the fast financial (think pottery) way

Other thoughts?

The key to fast financial is having lots of land to build cottages on. ;) It's no good to have a super-rich capital but be an OCC.

So I think we should improve all bonus resources, crank out settlers, and use plenty of Archers (upgrade to chu-ko-nu) to defend our land claims. Once our tax rate drops below 50% we can start the cottages spam.

Very good point!!!

Not to mention I am willing to bet other civs will be more pacifist at the beggining of the game to feel everyone out!!!

Wow you guys sure know your stuff, I usually fortify my inital warrior :S

I can't wait to learn from all of you.

Wow you guys sure know your stuff, I usually fortify my inital warrior :S

I can't wait to learn from all of you.


Well I have no idea what you'll learn for me, I jsut go for fast domination and that is on single player! But it is the team atmosphere that I think will make it the best.

Welcome :band:

:bump: Alright the game is winding up we need some strategies now.


There are 3 plains hill we can move to in the first turn (wait this is a settler so nevermind thatis up to DaveMcW, but once settled...)

If indeed the Office of the president Settles this turn (instead of heading for one of the 3 plains hills reachable)

Then 2 iussues need to be discussed for the Domestic office

1. What to build
2. What to reasearch

But we will wait and see what DaveMcW wants to do with the settler :)

I think we should research Wheel -> Pottery. That will keep our first worker busy for a long time improving floodplains.

I haven't crunched the numbers, but I think we could build a worker first and never have him idle. Though we may want a warrior first for defense.

Please come up with an alternate plan to deal with fish or clams in the northern sea. I will be asking Defense to scout the northern hill.

Attached curtosy of the Office of Domestic policy is our starting map. (I recreated it)

However I put us on an island, this is jsut to experiment with what we can see at the moment. (i.e. wheel==>pottery = cottages)

There are two saves
1. without a fish to the north
2. one with a fish to the north.

Open them up experiment and let me know (I'll be doing the same ;))

In the instruction thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=162617) you will only have 10 hammers by 3600BC. Warriors cost 15 hammers. Are you going to insert more hammers or push back the warrior completion?

It's most efficient to get the warrior out the turn the city grows. The question is: size 2 or size 3?

I will double check this over the weekend :salute: thanks for bringing it up, I am off by a hmmer somewhere :(

Anyways As of right now the orders are still good but I will advise after I get a chance to do mroe calculations.

I jsut wanted to get this down since I see we have the save again!!! :band:

i assume that after the warrior we will get a setler (spelling!) or a worker... preferable a settler

Could someone give a dot map of potential sites for our next cities?

Alright the Breakdown of Option 2 Vs. Option 3

Summary:

I belive Option 2 in the long run will be better

Notable:

Option 2:
Already a gain in commerce in the short term which will continue to grow on option 3
When bronze is discovered (if we go for it/ it is in our borders) we can hook it up already having two cottages in place

Option 3:
We get a 3rd unit exploring 10 Turns sooner


However I find that usually my 3rd unit moves around a little but then comes back for the :) in the city, in this case making Option 2 stronger since that warrior will most likely be comming back once the pop approaches 5 and therefore won't explore too much
(We will get and :@ at size 5 without a unit stationed in the city)

So unless I get a strong argument otherwise I am going with option 2 :D

Regarding the "when to build the worker" issue, always remember that when comparing hammers/commerce of the different options, you have to take into account how long the worker needs to improve tiles, and that we need to utilize Pottery ASAP by constructing early cottages (or we shouldn't have researched it in the first place).

However, before we can construct cottages, we need to improve the other tiles first! Early cottages might give the capital an early science boost, but mid-term we need to build units and settlers to expand. For this, the extra commerce will not help - we need food and hammers instead.

So we want to irrigate the rice and mine the two hills first at least before we start to construct cottages on the floodplains, so that when our capital has reached its maximum size we can stop its growth and have max hammers for units, or max food+hammers for settlers. I always forget the exact number of turns these improvements need, but including worker movement, irrigation plus two mines will take at least 15 turns or so.

Now if we wait too long with building the worker, for example by letting the city grow to size 4 first, we will have wasted our early Pottery research! Instead, we should have researched something that would have been useful immediately, like BW to see where copper is. But since we have gone for Pottery already, we need to utilize it, which means we need an early worker.

In conclusion, I strongly suggest to start building the worker as soon as the warrior has been finished. In single player games, I would have even built the worker right out of the gate, but I guess in a multiplayer environment that is too risky.

-Kylearan

Thanks for the education Memphus and Kylearan! :thanx:

Option 2 is clearly better.
I'd like to change my "vote"

I'm going to learn alot from this game! :)

We can still change our research to BW. Wheel finishes next turn, and we haven't even started Pottery yet.

If we are going to irrigate 1 tile and mine 2 tiles before starting cottages, BW is more important.

Domestic Orders have been modifed to suit the new developments that have arisen :) (I think finding out if we do have cooper is more important, not to mention if in our borders :drool: that would be nice production.)

They will only be a couple turns projected now as I find that more discussion = new changes.

In any event, If you have any questions or comments please don't hesitate to ask.

Summary:
Grow to size 3 then start worker
Research Bronze working, Then pottery

So we'll have 2 warriors (one existing, plus the one we're working on), then a worker, correct?... And that worker won't build cottages immediately, but improve the rice?

Also, we'll see the Copper resource on the map (if it's there, which it better be!!) and be able to build mines before we research Pottery, which we need for the worker to build cottages?

I'm just trying to keep up with the complexities of a game I can't even run ;)

That at least is my suggestion. Irrigating rice yields a 4f tile, and when the city is maxed, working the mined hills gives us hammers. Both will speed up unit and settler production. If we build cottages first, we would have more commerce, but would lack the production power to expand.

We can irrigate and mine already, but my reasoning is that while our worker does this, we can look if we have copper available without losing time, since our worker is preoccupied anyway before he starts to build cottages.

Note that this is just my educated opinion and not the one and only way to play the game. Until someone points out a flaw in my argument I stand to my suggestion; however, Civ 4 is a wonderful complex game that can be played "right" in a lot of ways, including ways I'm not used to. :)

-Kylearan

One argument for cottages first is it makes a really powerful Oracle slingshot.

But in the long run, getting Chu-ko-nu's at 1000BC is useless if we lack the infrastructure to crank them out.

Sorry I forgot to upload this yesterday :blush:

Happy Mothers Day Team!

I am a little tired today, yesterday was my wedding social (for those of you who have no idea what it is, basically a big party where you drink :beer: with all your friends and family)

But down to business:

We are 5 turns away from Bronze Working, so once that is discovered what do we want to research?

To me there are a couple options:
If we have copper in our radius great! If we can get it with a second city we are still good to go.

If we lack copper all together then we need to consider archery...or iron working.

But let's not forget about the oracle..we need to research 3 tech before we can start building it.

So we have some choices here. (boy I am glad the writing option is out of the mix :evil:)

If this was single player I would say research Alphabet, and trade with AI, but with other humans... If we get ALpha to early they may form a gang...

I think we need Pottery next, so the worker has something to do after the hills are improved. We need to build a granary too.

I wouldn't rush to Iron Working if we don't have copper, let's explore some more first.

Hi,

I agree with DaveMcW that we should go for Pottery next, for cottages. And while I'm not sure our capital needs a granary right now, our newly-founded cities might want to build one.

-Kylearan

Alright team discussion time:

We have our Research path pretty much set for the next little while (mostly due to our source of copper :cool: )


What we don't have set is what we are going to build and when. Our worker is going to be done shortly, and from that point we have 3 things that need get built ASAP:

Warrior
Settler
Library

Please Refer to this post for reference: Memphus' Speil in Discussion Turns 21-40 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4071440&postcount=9)

Don't forget that the Oracle will come into the mix in about 20 ~ turns

On a positive note after a secodn city we can still keep research aat %100 due to our newly poped hut :king:

Alright I have recreated out position as is and included three saves projected into the future

Let me just say that the CoL slingshot is a deffinet possibility, and if pulled off will give us an enormous advantage.

In any event after my test runs, I believe the build order should be

Library
Warrior
Settler

With our Worker improving the following Hill to the SE, (then he wastes one turn :mad: ) but go to the Hill to the N, then the rice, then road the rice, then build 2 cottages, by this tiem the library warrior and Settler are done :eek: (it involves micromanaging and starving our city a little bit :lol: )

At this point we now have a warrior to escort our settler and can build a new one in 3 turns, at which point a second worker could be pumped out, or the Oracle even started ;)

In any event Here Are some screenies of the progression (oh and the saves :goodjob: )


Oh one last thing there is an error inside the city (if you open the save) showing that we have a grassland/floodplains worht +5 :food: a turn, but this obviously isn't the case and I will fix that for the enxt map release

Actually :blush: I think we can do better than that (I still need to verfiy)

But if we went

Library
Warrior
Warrior
Settler

This would get the settler out on the same turn because it would allow our city to grow to size 5 vs size 4 :goodjob:

I will crunch the numbers tonight, but either way that Library first is huge for our research rate :) (not to mention it lets us grow, and after completion our effective :culture: per turn is doubled :D

Thanks for setting this up. :goodjob: It must have taken a lot of time to make the map match!

We don't gain much by reaching size 5. We pay 28:food: for the citizen, 15:hammers: for the warrior, and gain 1 floodplain. But we are over the health limit so the citizen eats 3:food:/turn. That makes a net gain of 1:commerce:/turn for the 5th citizen. (We will eventully improve the floodplain, but too late to affect our CoL date.)

It seems we will get CoL in 1280BC following your plan.

Thanks for setting this up. :goodjob: It must have taken a lot of time to make the map match!.

No Problem, I am going to do my best to try and do this every 20 turns or so, that way we can have an acurate map to run forecasting tests.


We don't gain much by reaching size 5. We pay 28:food: for the citizen, 15:hammers: for the warrior, and gain 1 floodplain. But we are over the health limit so the citizen eats 3:food:/turn. That makes a net gain of 1:commerce:/turn for the 5th citizen. (We will eventully improve the floodplain, but too late to affect our CoL date.).

Yeah you're right, we might as well only get the one warrior out who can go sit on that Hill (like it is in the save, and the screenshot) for a jump start on the settler (if we do indeed decided he is going to settle near the copper)

The second warrior can be built in 3 turns after the settler while the city does grow to size 5 (which by that time we can have the flood plain with a cottage)

As for a second worker our initial one should be able to keep up based on my test there, so it looks liek build order could tentatively be:

Library
Warrior
Settler
Warrior
Oracle :eek:

It seems we will get CoL in 1280BC following your plan.

And with the above build order The oracle will be shortly behind :clap:

Aside: Once that Settler is out and we are at size 5, successfully building the Oracle (with +9 ~ +11 hammers a turn) we can start to think about forcing a scientist, and then two. Resulting in an academy prior to 0 AD as well :eek:

Here's an interesting build order:

2320BC: Library, force 2 scientists
1640BC: Academy
1440BC: Oracle/Civil Service (chopping 2 plains hills)
1120BC: Settler

Here's an interesting build order:

2320BC: Library, force 2 scientists
1640BC: Academy
1440BC: Oracle/Civil Service (chopping 2 plains hills)
1120BC: Settler

Well I do think that is a great build order and a research geared one, I feel it puts alot of eggs in one basket (i.e. if we miss the Oracle we are behind)

That plan puts our first settler our 19 turns later :(, which is a lot longer to go without getting a second city running as well as without at least one warrior around for defense.

With those 19 turns our second city could begin to grow and become a military hot house (with the copper and all thsoe plains)

Please Make sure you Vote in our build Order of the next 40 turns found here:

Voice Your Opinion for the Team (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4078391#post4078391)

Is there a record somewhere of the Techs that we already have, how we got them, and on what turn?

I'm having a hard time finding them anywhere other than the State of the Empire.

Technically, this is something for the Department of the Economy to maintain. Maybe a spoiler with a list of techs learned and when?

However - I'd be happy to add this kind of a spoiler to my FMC updates... but it won't be the most natural place to go looking for that info.

Thoughts?


E) Department of Economy
- Run by the Chief Domestic Officer or an appointee of the CDO.
- Responsible for setting the Economy(tax), Science, and Culture sliders.
- Responsible to choose what to research.
- Before the sliders can be adjusted to produce a negative gold return, the Department of the Budget must approve.
- Responsible to maintain the “Department of the Economy” thread.

That is a good Idea, because unfortunately not everyone here has it either beecause it does not work on their computer or because they just do not have it.

Is there a record somewhere of the Techs that we already have, how we got them, and on what turn?

I'm having a hard time finding them anywhere other than the State of the Empire.

I can update that ..sorry :(

Anyways it can also be found in the .zip files I included in the deparmtent of industry :)

my mac doesn't like those zips ;)

my mac doesn't like those zips

Then don't use an apple :p

To be honest, I tried unzipping it with a different program, and it worked. However, I noticed that your spreadsheet hasn't been updated since Turn 9 :)

To be honest, I tried unzipping it with a different program, and it worked. However, I noticed that your spreadsheet hasn't been updated since Turn 9 :)

Sorry my friend, the updated one is currently i nthe "our next 3 big builds" thread :blush:

I should probably keep it more uniform...:mischief: but that would allow less time to test things :lol:

:lol: No wonder I've been having trouble keeping track of things! :)

It's lucky that these early turns aren't so complex: it gives us all a chance to refine the presentation of the reports, as well as what's required of them.

Let me just add - if it comes down to it, Testing is much more important than Reporting. If Time is a constraint, please - Test away! Reports may follow at your leisure :)

Just so everyone is aware in 2 turns when Peter Grimes finishes his second Mine we will be moving a citizen onto that Mine for the +4 :hammers: instead of the +3 :food: and +1 :commerce: from the FP

Our City can't grow (well it can but it is illogical) until a warrior is built, and at the current rate of growth it would grow faster than the library would be finished.

If Anyoen has any questions about our 8 next turns which have been posted in the Office of Domestic Policy turn orders please let me know here and I will explain it further :)

Oh and Incase anyoen is wondering the end goal of the Civil Service Slingshot.

Orginally my predicted date was 1240 B.C., But as it turns out the date is going to be 1360 B.C. :) :D

But like I said if anyone is curious as to why we are proceeding in a certain fashion please questions me!

For Those of you who have the game you can play it from here:

Now I havn't brought the map fully up to speed with our current game yet but you can still simulate the Captial and reasearch and such.

If you think you can get the CS slingshot faster than 1360 B.C. Let me know :)

Oh Yeah feel free to go into the world builder and add 50 Gp as I havn't done that yet either (makes a difference once city #2 is founded)

Also I just fortify our warriors, as my main concern is the Domestic side of things :)

Thanks for setting this up!

By building an academy instead of a settler I got the CS slingshot 3 turns earlier, in 1480 BC. I don't think 3 turns is worth delaying our settler.

By building oracle, settler I got the Metal Casting slingshot 10 turns earlier, in 1760BC. This is a very safe bet to deny the oracle to other teams and found confucianism ourselves. But with a slightly delayed settler and no CS this is a rather boring play.

How many turns until the next Warrior is trained and in need of a name?

Umm I believe it is 2 turns away (one after DaveMcW plays tonight ;) )

If you look in the Turns orders for the doemstic Office it will have the Turn the warriro is complete

Alright thinking cap time:

10 turns to go, what do we want to build in our new city?

This will no doubt be another research center (unless we want it to be our GP farm, but personally I think reasearch)

It will be working the flood plain tile +3 :food: +1 :gold:

We are in need of a lot of things:

Warriors, to scout as well as begin setting up a bard net (line of sight)

Worker, this city needs someone to improve it (although I suggest Peter Grimes stolls on down after he completes the second / third cottage at our capital as there is no point improving the land if the city can't grow ;), And the our captial can build a new worker alongs with settlers as its growth will be stalled

Library, for border expansion (no wait scratch that it will be a holy city!! :king: ) as well as research in the city

In the long run I think we should build a granary and pop rush things like workers and libraries. But in the short run we desperately need warriors.

Warriors, to scout as well as begin setting up a bard net (line of sight)

What is a bard net?... Did you mean barb net? And, excuse my ignorance (I dont' have cIV), but when you mention Line of Sight, are you referring to the Holy City thingy, or just being able to see approaching barbs and explorers?

Just being able to see apoaching barbs, that way we can prepare, and have less of a zone to be able to pop up in and be immeaditly zoneing in for us and our improvements.

5 Turns to go, (Well 8 including settler movement)


So Far it looks like the choice is between

Warrior
Granary

Let's not forget that in ~12 turns from when the city is founded *when* we pull of the CS slingshot, our capital will be able to produce 1 turn warriors (well almost ;) )

So maybe we should lean towards a Granary?

However lets not forget that barbarians will be appearing very shortly :eek:

How long would the warrior take?

If it isn't that long we should be able to do it where we just start building a warrior when we see a barb on our cultural border.

Where do we want our great scientist to pop? Capital or second city?

What are the consequences for each city?

Does it draw down population, therefore slowing down our growth if popped from Eridani?

Or is earlier better, therefore potentially less advantageous if popped from Second City?

How much change in the odds will there be for popping a Great Scientist if we pop it in the same city as where we build the Oracle?

Oracle = Great Prophet in 50 turns
1 Scientist = Great Scientist in 34 turns
2 Scientists = Great Scientist in 17 turns
2 Scientists + Oracle = Great Scientist in 13 turns (66% chance)

We sacrifice the production of 2 citizens (12:hammers: in the capital, 8:hammers: in 2nd city) to run the scientists.

If we get a Great Prophet, the price doubles for the next Great Scientist. We eventually need a prophet anyway, but a scientist is better right now.

So it's a choice between:
156:hammers: for an academy in 13 turns (capital).
136:hammers: for an academy in ~49 turns (2nd city).
272:hammers: for an academy in 50+ turns (3rd city).

put that way, it seems that the first choice is the way to go... what's the downside again?

The downside is we could be building warriors and settlers with that 156:hammers:. We can slightly reduce the opportunity cost (and improve the 66%) by running scientists before the oracle is completed.

I'd rather delay a great person/pollute the GP pool than delay building settlers. Earlier cities outweigh the effect of an earlier academy/shrine IMO.

-Kylearan

Memphus, are you planning to do any forest chopping / scientist hiring to speed up the CS slingshot?

Memphus, are you planning to do any forest chopping / scientist hiring to speed up the CS slingshot?

That is correct
I don't have it with me at work but I believe the fastest way to the CS sling was to build 1 more cottage and then chop 1 forest, but in the meantime it also meant hiring a Scientist from the mines

Off the top of my head I think it was:

Run A Scientist starting right away (from the mine) and alternate with the rice (a 2 on 1 off so we never starve)
As soon as the cottage is done then run 3 FP's and both miens while choppingthe forest

Because as soon as cottage #3 is finished that tile is *better* than a Scientist as it gives +3 :food: so we can run both mines.

I will rerun the simulation tonight as the crunch is approaching. Ultimately if anyone can do it faster now that the settler will be produced, by all means please share as every turn sooner increases our odds.

BTW I also noticed that last turn someones production is up to 12 :hammers: per turn :(

Ok we are at a key turn for our worker and our build order discussion:

Basically we have 2 options

1. Go make a 3rd cottage and then chop a forest

2. Go chop 1 forest and then a second forest.

Either option gets us the CS sling shot in 1360 B.C. ;)

I won't go into the nitty gritty technical of how it works but basically as soon as we chop forest one we get an unhealthy penalty, as well as when we do a third cottage it is basically like having a scientist but with the added bonus of +3 :food: but -3 gp points.

However here are the main difference:

1. We get 1 extra cottage built, we have 1 extra forest left over, 1 road built towards our new city

2. We have 15 more GP points (30 instead of 15), we have 2 roads built towards our new city

**Side note when we build city 2 we don't actually get a trade route as we don't know fishing :(


I will leave this up for 7 hours until we have to play the save and then I will make a call and play it if Dave isn't around!

Please comment quickly!

I say go for option 1 and save the extra forest for a rainy day.

I always like to get cottages asap. Especially when playing a Financial civ.
I’d vote for the cottage… but I’m not a very experienced player.

Anyway – I vote for the cottage.

Just to clarify, did you chop the forests inside or outside our fat cross? The ones outside give 10:hammers: less but no health penalty.

There is actually a 3rd option: build a road to bypass the lake (useless until Fishing) and connect the trade route. This gives more commerce towards CoL than chopping an outside forest or building a cottage!

I chopped the 2 forests (1 forest) inside the fat cross, the save file is there so you may attempt both (or all 3 options)

Let me know if you can do it better but ultimately I think the 15 GP(and an increase % chance of GS and not GP) is better than the one cottage. Also we get one road tile closer at the end of the day

Well now that Dave is here the tough descision is up to Mr. President ;)

Ultimately I am leaning to the double forest chop, but if you think the cottage is better we will know by the end of this turn :)

(Don't forget with the forest chop I actually build the road first then chop (+2 extra turns of health) Actually technically speaking you could do both road in the forests then chop...I didn't try that yet:cry:

Well I just tried the double road first followed by double chop and same thing again Oracle in 1360 B.C. however I did manage to accumulate another 6 GP points (36/100) So I really do think this is the way to go! (an extra 21 GP points all towards GS is very important this early in the game :) )

Thanks for the test game! It looks impossible to beat 1360 B.C. So I tried to minimize our long-term costs.

1. Road on the spot
2. Build a cottage
3. Chop outside the fat cross.

This gets us the Oracle and 15 GPP (or 12 GPP + 4:hammers: overflow) in 1360 B.C. So the question is, are 21 GP points worth 2 forests and 1 health?

Well with that being the case that we can keep the +1 health then I am all for that!
Also we keep those 2 forests for bigger chops when we have math :goodjob:

Not to mention in hte long run our trade route is set up as well as we have one more cottage!

Dave I say go with that plan but I obviously don't know the orders for the next ~10 turns ;)

Orders were basically...

- Take a citizen off the rice and turn him into a scientist whenever the food bin can handle it. (Must be done before the cottage is finished)
- Use miners to get the remaining GPP.

Plus road, cottage, chop for Peter Grimes.

Alright Sounds good!

Let's go for it :king:

Hi,

looks like I'm too late for the discussion (damn sleep times :p ), but I'm glad we're going for the option that keeps the forests and the extra health! :goodjob: We have to think long-term in a game against humans, and personally I like to preserve some forests for the extra health, and if it comes to that, lumbermills.

-Kylearan

:bump:

Ok – so this thread is a little old – but I didn't see a newer Domestic discussion thread, and didn't want to just continually clog the "discussion turns 81-100" thread.

As I was looking at the map, I noticed what I think would be a GREAT site for our first costal town.

Screenshot:
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/9941/87ultimacoastcityborderex9.th.jpg (http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=87ultimacoastcityborderex9.jpg)

This site has:
* Only 1 overlapping tile with Immortal Keep
* Quick access to our current network of towns
* Access to Clams, Whales, and Fish.
* 9 coast tiles = lots of easy food and gold
* Lots of forest to use
* 1 Grassland Hill
* It's costal – so allows trade & exploration by sea
* Only 1 unusable desert tile
* Only 1 non-useful Ocean tile
* Will offer us an extra whale for trade after 2nd culture expansion (should be easy by the time we get optics)

Anyway – to me, this looks like a fantastic site, and I think we should jump this up on our priority list to settle.
Am I missing something?

The seafood is useless until the border expands and we build a workboat. We can get the fish/cow site up and running much sooner.

I agree it is a good city site though. I'd like to have a warrior scout the north coast so we can see how all our coastal cities would fit in.

Is there a map of our current settlement plan anywhere?

And you're right about the need for at least 1 expansion before that city is very weak. But with our extra Missionary sitting around, we could have that expansion just 10 turns after settlement.

We also need another warrior headed towards the capital ASAP for the :)

(it grows in 2 turns) I suggest sending the warrior (3 turns to get there, but in time with the Monarchy Revolution) from Immortal Keep as it can switch to the mine anytime to pump out fast a warrior (+6 :hammers: next turn)

That way when the Capital Grows again (Size 7) it will be working all of it's "Good Tiles" From there s can grow and we can use the Whip :evil:

How many turns left on the whip :mad:?

I still haven’t seen any maps or plans on a Settlement strategy… and I think it’d be useful to do some more planning on this topic – so I cooked up a quick map of what I remember of the sites we’ve discussed.

I know the plan is to settle on location “A” next – and I support that.
But where do we go from there?
I hope this map helps!
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/6506/92settlementplanv2ty5.th.jpg (http://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=92settlementplanv2ty5.jpg)

I’d advocate going after location D very quickly – just for strategic advantage against Piffle. But we may also want to get something laid down over on the isthmus to Loco here before too long. (location E)

Please offer more ideas for new locations to settle, order of settlement, etc. This isn't my department... I just wanted to help get the ball rolling!

(City planning is actually under the President's juristiction, but you're welcome to discuss it here. ;)

I think we would benefit more from moving Site A east one tile. It could use those 2 extra mines for production.

I agree with settling the Site A region followed by Site D.

I can send an axeman and worker to begin clearing the Site D jungle in a few turns.

(City planning is actually under the President's juristiction, but you're welcome to discuss it here. ;)
:blush: oh man! You think I'd know that!!

well - there doesn't seem to be a lot of discussion in this thread that I'm cluttering - so with President Memphus's indulgence, and your gracious hosting - we might as well keep the talk here! :lol:

If we're going to prioritize location "D" as our next target after "A" - then will we also want to commit other resources right away?

I imagine our minimum commitment would need to include 1 Axeman and 2 workers – 1 worker to go with the settler and start clearing jungle, and 1 worker to begin laying road on the way down to location D… so we can quickly move forces down to that vital strategic spot if things go bad with Piffle – when worker #2 arrives, he can then help with the mass de-jungling that’s necessary down there.

More workers would obviously be gravy, but getting that city up and running obviously has to be balanced against improving our core.

After D, I’d go to location “B” next – it’d be nice to get a boat out on that side of our continent to go looking for more friends!
Then I’d go to E and then C (even though C will be an awesome site when it’s up and running.)

Other opinions?

It is ok not a problem :p

As for Sites, other things to consider are once D and E are dounded will will hold a key tactical naval advantage, the ability to go East / West Even if Piffle founds a second city that can allow a naval passage the will still be blocked off by the next penisula from Loco :)

As for Commitment (Site D), 1 Worker and 1 Axeman will work to begin with as they will beat the settler there. The second worker can get there by building the road. This would also be where I would suggest sending the Missionary as we want high culture (Even though I never build Walls I would suggest it here too) seeing as this City will be under on slaught.) And the Border Expansion ASAP.

As For E I would put that last on my list as Loco is Miles Away, the don't even know the terrain yet, and Would Settle Where Shadow Tiger Was RIP first before venturing up any Closer. :)

My Order of Building Cities?

A (One Tile East) -> D -> C -> B (One Tile North) -> F (Northern Eastern Coastal (with the sheep) We can't Figure out yet but will know in a couple of Turns) -

Well Based on my state of the empire post, I would say I now know where I want to put the North Eastern Coastal City, which in effect could push the Eastern city to the south (perhaps to be founded on the desert?)

In the interest of keeping my mind away from my tendency towards paranoid delusions about the delay in hearing back from Loco…:twitch:… I decided to Spam this thread!

Back to the maps!
This screenshot (from turn 71) shows what I believe to be a good potential site for an Iron Island.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/71-IronIsland.jpg
(And yes, that's speculation based on my speculative map, which was based on speculation from what we can see of the map so far combined with speculation about how Sirian would have designed an MP map.)

The good news here, is that our next city location is just a little North of this spot – so we should be able to check it out quickly with a boat from there.

I bring this up here, because I'd like to urge Domestic to prioritize building a workboat to explore this site to see what we're dealing with!

Here's my guess at the world map again for reference.
Please forgive my poor free-hand drawing skills. It is not supposed to be to scale (Thank you very much Mr. Sarcasm Grimes) – just supposed to put across the general idea.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/94-MapGuess.jpg

Looking forward to hearing what other people think!

Is our world map set at the proper scale? We don't have calendar yet...

good point - all the more reason to excuse my lack of scale in that map guess.

Still - from what we know of Piffle and Loco's location... it still makes sense to me that Sirian designed a "snake-like" map with each Civ connecting to 2 others. I would just naturally expect this map to be balanced so that each team is close to equal in starting position... esp. regarding those very important early contacts.

And then you also have to explain our lack of Iron... It's hard for me to believe that Sirian would have just forgotten/neglected to give us so vital a resource... unless all teams are missing it, and it's off somewhere else in a free-for-all type space.
If true - this seems like a pretty cool idea to me! :thumbsup:

Or am I just letting my imagination run away with me? :blush:

Or it could simply be balanced with another resource that someone else doesn't get?

Or it could simply be balanced with another resource that someone else doesn't get?
That could be true for sure - but I doubt that'd be balanced!
If we had Iron and a neighbor did not, what would we need before we traded iron to them? If we had military designs against them - I doubt there's anything worth giving your potential enemy Iron!
Just a round-about way of saying that imho Iron is the King resource in MP games - if you get stuck without it, you've got a very tough road to survive into a later age.

I guess we'll see!

Iron is good, especially for us for Cho-ku-nu's

However we can survive without it as You can build macemen with copper ;)

Ok – I made another run at our settlement map.
Instead of using letters, I gave each location a code-name to make it easier to keep track of what we’re talking about. (I am NOT proposing those as actual city names!)

I made this map in a new program that should make it a lot easier to move city locations around if you think a site needs to be moved a tile or two or three in any given direction.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/95-SettlementPlan_v1.jpg

We’ve talked about most of these before – except Clam Cove, One Horse Town, and Mystic Hills… so those should be cause for the most debate.

Specifically, I had the hardest time with Clam Cove. It could go one tile East, and be on that grassland/forested hill… but then that site is pretty short on places to get hammers.
It’s also possible we could move it 2 East and 1 South. – but that gives the location an awful lot of water tiles… but may be worthwhile, depending on what’s on that Island square we can only see the edge of.

I’d advocate the following settlement order:
Surf & Turf (about to be founded)
West Gate
Clam Cove
East Gate
Jungle Paradise
Wool & Whales
One Horse Town
Mystic Hills
* This order is mostly due to strategic considerations – I’ve prioritized towns that get us a port town on both coasts (for exploring) and blocking off our land bridges (and opening up canals for our boats).

I hope this is all helpful in formulating strategy and sparks good discussion!

I would move Jungle Paradise east 2 tiles. This will be the third highest production site on our continent under state property (after Epsilon Eridani and the desert hill we didn't build Eternal Eye on). And the best location for the Iron Works.

I don’t understand the logic of moving Paradise Jungle 2 tiles east – that would give us 1 less hill, 2 fewer gems, and doesn’t gain us anything that I can see! What am I missing?

Site 1:
1 copper
1 banana
2 gem hills
2 grassland hills
8 grassland
5 plains
1 mountain

Site 2:
1 copper
1 banana
2 grassland hills
13 grassland
3 plains

So we are comparing 2 gems, 2 plains, 1 mountain vs 5 grassland. Short term strategy favors the gems, long term strategy favors the grassland.

Since Site 2 is the perfect site for the iron works, I would prefer to let the long-term strategy win. Having an optimal iron works location is vital to winning the space race, if the game goes that far.

ok - I'm not trying to be difficult...
but with a mine, each Gem location will give us something like +6:commerce: and +2:hammers: and +1:food: - right?

With the banana and 8 grassland plains all with close access to the river, we should't have any trouble getting plenty of food - wouldn't we rather have some extra plains for the production?

And beyond that... are we sure than the benifit of having an Ironworks in a "optimal" location later in the game will outweigh the ~50 turns of working 2 gem mines (600 :commerce: - discounting multiplyers) before we could even get the iron works?

I'm sure you're probably right... I just want to understand!
Thanks. :)

Moving Jungle Paradise east gives us another city site that could work the gems. Maybe we should settle that first? :)

I guess we could do that... use the Clams as our bonus food to free citizens to work in the Gem Slave Mines...

But that still dosn't really explain to me why Jungle Paradise isn't a prime location for an Iron Works (with plenty of food, ample space for farmland, and extra plains locations, that to my noob mind look like a better opportunity for hammers)


Even without my understanding it - I trust you! and if we are going to move Jungle Paradise 2 east... then I would advocate settling by the Gems and Clams first. Just because the Gems are more immediately useful to our empire. (Much needed happy bonus, and awesome :commerce: bonus)

Hi,

But that still dosn't really explain to me why Jungle Paradise isn't a prime location for an Iron Works (with plenty of food, ample space for farmland, and extra plains locations, that to my noob mind look like a better opportunity for hammers)

Unfortunately I cannot really make out what all the tiles are on the screenshot because of the clouds and the small size, but maybe Dave's reasoning has something to do with the fact that gems give you one less hammer than the tile normally would give you, and that forests are superior over plain tiles in terms of hammers. Moving Jungle Paradise two tiles east would also lose the mountain - but I'm not sure what it gains instead. :p

(To look at the save, I'd have to find out how to get it, restart my Linux PC to boot up windows, look at the save, then restart again to boot up Linux again...sorry, I'm a lazy bastard, and that would be too much work. :blush: )

-Kylearan

I use this guide to evaluate production:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=169213

Hi,

I use this guide to evaluate production:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=169213
This article is nice and all, but as far as I can see after skimming over it, it optimizes hammer output for the late game (i.e., State Property). I prefer not to plan too far ahead, as you need some good production sites in the early and mid game as well; for example, hills are a must have in the early game, even if they are less powerful in a hammer-optimized state property city. And replacing mature towns with workshops once you have state property is usually not my cup of tea either.

In my opinion, it's better to have a good production city in the first two stages of the game which becomes a good iron works city later in the last stage, than to have a weak city which becomes a great iron works city later on.

That doesn't mean I have any preference for Jungle Paradise's location, as I still cannot figure out exactly what kind of tiles it would have. :p

-Kylearan

While we want the short-mid term cities with good production, by moving JP 2E of the original planned location we will not only have the super late term production city, but a fairly rich city on the coast as well (with the gems and clam)

I am also for going 2E, normally the gems would be more of a priority but... wait a second If I am not mistaken West Gate has Gems too ;)

I'd feel much more positive about the move of Jungle Paradise 2 east, if we were all agreed to settle the Clams/Gems location that this move would open up first. Those gems are quite a bit of potential gold in our coffers… not to mention trading opportunities.

If I'm understanding it all correctly – the new Jungle Paradise location is a real long-term location anyway… ie, no hurry to settle there.

Is that right?

If so – I'll draw up a new map here as soon as I can (probably tonight or tomorrow night)

Ok – here's version #2 of the settlement plan:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/99-SettlementPlan_v2.jpg


UPDATED 2- Proposed Order of Settlement:
* West Gate
* Clam Cove
* Iron location (if available)
* Wool & Whales
* Jungle Iron Works
* Gem Slave Mines
* East Gate
* One Horse Town
* Mystic Hills




And just for Kylearan – here is a close-up no-fog shot of the jungle area in question:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/99-JungleParadiseAreaCloseup.jpg



What do people think of this?
We getting closer to a plan?
:salute:

Well I would have Jungle Iron Works Before The Gem Slave Mine as we will already almost have a road directly to it. Additionally we don't leave a "gap" in our empire meaning Barbs which appeared could either way and as a result we would need to defend both sides.

I do like the idea of getting Clam Cove up and running ASAP so we can get a fishing boat out on the outside there (East) to explore!


Additionally as a side note the Fish up to the North West there, we'll know for sure once the boat explores but a blue circle was present there when I was founding Port of Mists :eek:

(The blue square was on the tile directly to the east of the ice.) This tells me there has to be something else of value up there!! (IRON??)

I think the priority should be settling sites with 2 food resources, then 1 food resource. And of course Iron if we can find it. :D

So with that said then the Order would be: (Assuming City Location are correct)

Priority:
1. Clam Cove (2 sources) / Wool & Whales (2 Sources)


2. East Gate / Gem Slave Mine / Jungle Iron Works ( 1 Source)

3. Mystic Hills / One Horse Town.

Ok – So it sounds like we pretty much agree on the locations then? :)

Now to the order - based on those comments, here's what I came up with…

New Order:
* West Gate
* Clam Cove
* Iron location (if available)
* Wool & Whales
* East Gate
* One Horse Town
* Jungle Iron Works
* Gem Slave Mines
* Mystic Hills


This looks pretty good to me!
I put Mystic Hills last, as it's the only location without any good food tiles to help it get up and running… it's our only available extra happy resource till optics… but hopefully that won't be a huge issue with our Monarchy anyway. EDIT: I suppose "One Horse Town" falls into this catagory also... but it's closer to the core... so I like it better! :lol:

Further thoughts?

x-post with Memphus - that looks about right - but I'd argue for the extreme strategic importance of East Gate... I strongly believe it should be settled next.
:blush: - talking about WEST gate... :blush:

I'll have to draw up a strategy map of our borders with Loco... but it looks like East Gate is solidly on our side of the line so it's not very strategic.

I'm not disputing that East Gate is on "our side" – and could be easily captured in a war… but I'd be loath to start the first war in this game over that location, when we could have just grabbed it earlier in a peaceful way.

If we don't get that spot, and Piffle comes along to explore or settle – are we willing to start a war to stop them? Letting a Piffle scout just waltz around our land presents a significant strategic threat, and puts powerful information in the hands of the empire shaping up to be our biggest rival.
To me – it just seems vastly superior to block Piffle off from entering our home continent now before it even becomes an issue.
:blush: - talking about WEST gate... :blush:

Keep in Mind Loco has No idea where we are on the map, as far as they are concerned we came "from the West"

East Gate won't be a problem setting up as Pfiffle can't get there, due to their poor city location of "Brilliant!" (I personally think I will refer to it is as "moronic!!!!" from now on ;) ...but I digress.


Our Bigger concern is Our Western Flank As Pffifle is close to us / has more information that Loco. consequently:

* Jungle Iron Works
* Gem Slave Mines

Are Of More Strategic value.

That being Said Pffifle would have to be compeltly of their rocker to set up a city there as that is clearly WAR plans in the making. :mischief:

In Any event What I find interesting is where Shadow Tiger died, the midland between us and Loco. Do we want a city there? (wheat and other resources available) It will be far from our main empire, kind of like an outpost... :crazyeye:

:blush: - I'm SO sorry – I messed up my own city names!! Gaa!

I'm really ok with downgrading the settlement priority of East Gate… I somehow got it in my head that we were talking about West Gate – which I'm pleased to see no one is actually advocating we shove down the list. :wallbash:
Just ignore my last 2 posts.


So how about this for a version #2 of the settlement order.

UPDATED 2- Proposed Order of Settlement:
* West Gate
* Clam Cove
* Iron location (if available)
* Wool & Whales
* Jungle Iron Works
* Gem Slave Mines
* East Gate
* One Horse Town
* Mystic Hills


Regarding the land down by Loco… I would LOVE to see a city down there… but I think we'd need two pretty big "ifs" to play out for us.
1) IF Loco hasn't settled there by the time our core is all settled
2) IF we're still on good terms with Loco, and war doesn't seem like a likely prospect in the near future.

Then it could be a great spot for some extra resources and a base of operations to support Loco in any wars… or to fight them from if things go down hill massively after settlement.

Look at Loco's settlement pattern thus far - It's only natural that they move up the peninsula... tho' of course we don't know how far up they have explored so far. They could have even made it as far as our East Gate location before succumbing to Bears.

They've got two towns really close to the connecting spit between us and them. It would not be a stretch to find a Loco city on the spit in 30 or 40 turns.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents :)

Here is our full world map, with lines drawn in to show distance from the capital.


http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2347/turn100maplocopifflepo1.jpg


So it looks like we can claim the second ivory without overextending ourselves too much.

Anything more than that will require us to have better supply lines than Piffle or Loco.

Hmm... that's very interesting. Thanks Dave!

So are you saying we should move location "East Gate" down to that jungle tile 1/2 way between the Pig and the Ivory? (Where your empire line makes it's "V")

That looks like a good spot to me! We could use the extra :) luxury! :thumbsup:

Why do you think Loco has a huge lake but we have a rather standard continent?

Which resource in West Gate should we improve first? Culture is not an issue, the borders will expand before the jungle is clear.

Gems - Happiness for the entire empire
Rice - Pop rush useful stuff in the city

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/3043/275bcbw3.jpg

Hi,

Which resource in West Gate should we improve first? Culture is not an issue, the borders will expand before the jungle is clear.

Gems - Happiness for the entire empire
Rice - Pop rush useful stuff in the city

I have no strong preference on this one; both options are okay. I'd say let's improve the rice first because I don't like the idea of having a city which cannot really grow or build stuff only to supply gems to the empire. But again, going for the gems first would be okay, too.

I hope everyone had a nice christmas! :)

-Kylearan

I Say go For the Gems.

Why it isn't just one :) in the Empire but 7 :)

Eternal Eye (with Forge) gets +2 :) = 2 Axemen are free to go elsewhere and not required for MP.

Capital (with Forge) gets +2 :) = can grow 2 more times and work even more cottages :goodjob: or release one of the MP warrior for a Line of Sight.

Port of Mists + 1 :) (not needed yet)

Immortal Keep + 1 :) (not needed yet)

West Gate + 1 :) (not needed yet)

so in reality there is only ~4 :) which are useful but still.

Another Arguement:

The improved Rice Gives +4 :food: (not Irrigated) Where as the improved Gems give: +2 :food: + 1 :hammers: +6 :commerce:

So My Vote is for the Gems. :)

Hi,

good point about the forge and the axemen which would then be free to go. Now I say gems first as well. :)

-Kylearan

I was hoping the gems would release another axeman, but I didn't realize it would result in two :)

Go for gems, then rice.

The Overflow Is From the Axemen is Currently going into the Barracks.


This is in Eternal Eye (Holy City)

We still have 34/90 :hammers: on the Library, there has been no degredation yet. At what point do we start to lose :hammers: ?

If it is soon should we not consider giving the Library a "boost" (i.e. for one turn apply the overflow to it instead?)

Alternatively should we complete the Library before the barracks?

Here is what I See:

Pros: (Library first)
Culture, will help EE reach next Border Expansion soon for better LOS
:science: with 1 Cottage done and a second to be done in 5 turns the research rate is going up.

Cons:
Assuming we will be continuing with the Whip Tactics here (after Axemen with Catapults) then every unit produced while the Library is applied will not get promotions. By my calculations this is approximately 2 units.

------------------------------------------------------------------

So I guess what we need to ask is:

8 exp worth 8 :culture: & 8 :science: ??

I think workers and settlers are more profitable than a library right now.

I'll heartily add my voice to the chorus of support for getting the Gems first. :thumbsup:

Also – I'd vote for the Library over the Barracks. But I really am a builder at heart – so I'm biased that way.
In support of the Library first, I'd point out that we are still roughly equal with Piffle in Power Score… so I don't see any immediate danger of an attack where every XP will count. The 3 extra units without the XP bonus can just be assigned to Police duties as they are released from Eternal Eye.
My two cents!
:salute:

EDIT: Coss-X with Dave... are you suggesting we forgo the Library AND the Barracks? :confused:

I see us building at least 2 workers and 2 settlers before we can seriously consider a Library.

With all the pop rushed axemen built while doing that, it makes sense to give them some experience. Hence the immediate barracks build.

ok - I see - so Barracks first, then work on 2 Settlers and Workers before diverting to finish the Library.

That makes sense to me.
Only wild card would be potentially losing the hammers already spent on the Library... anyone know when they start to go away?

In principle though, I do agree with Dave... Settlers and Workers are a bigger priority than a Library. If those are the next steps, then the Barracks needs to come first.

Ok not a problem was jsut throwing other ideas out there, but does anyone know for sure when we will start to lose some of those 34/90 hammers?

Because I don't like the idea of losing :hammers: :(

Also will the 3 turn cycle work the same even when we don't grow for the 1 turn ? (building settler / worker) I think it will since we already did a settler but am unsure

We have 50 turns before we start to lose hammers. If you can tell me when the decay starts I'll finish the library then. :)

At 5 population we can sustain a 3-turn cycle without growth for 1 turn. At 2 population we can't, which is another reason why I'm building the barracks.

We have 50 turns before we start to lose hammers. If you can tell me when the decay starts I'll finish the library then. :).

Turn 135 is when the Decay will start... :rolleyes: I sure hope we can be into the library by then. :lol:

Dave Would you Prefer that Every turn I adjust the :science: slider so we can get the highest :science: % each turn? or would you rather run in a +gpt for a couple of turns and then go back to %100 for a couple of turns?

If you really want to micromanage, try to give the capital a multiple of 4 beakers for the library bonus. :)

Hopefully we will get some cash from Piffle so we can run 100% again.

So I am guessing we are going back to the workboat?

Also putting the new citizen in Capital on the Plains Cottage?

Finally the 3rd Citizen in Immortal Keep Goes??

Ah Yes I forgot, what are we rsearching next?

Qestion to the Team.

Looking at the pociture in the State of the Empire Term 6.

We see thaqt currently we are at 89/100 GP Points With 3 turns to Go on the GL.

At interutrn we go to 91/100 with 2 turns to go.

Basically we will get to 95/100 the turn the GL is completed. (and that turn we will get 8 more gp points thus putting us to 103/100.

Great! Everyone is thinking GL in 2 more turns Great Prophet 2 more turns....but wait... Right now the %'s are 6% Scientist and 94% Prophet.

With the GL being done on the turn before we throw in 2 more sources of GS points (The GL itself as well as 2 Scientists)

I am going to run a simulation today and let everyone know what it does to the odds.

(Incase you are wonderingwhy I care, if we don't get a Great Prophet here, it will be very hard to get this game.) Not to mention we will have a GS some 20 turns later :)

Hi,

With the GL being done on the turn before we throw in 2 more sources of GS points (The GL itself as well as 2 Scientists)
Nitpick: The GL and two scientists makes 3 more sources, not 2. ;)

if we don't get a Great Prophet here, it will be very hard to get this game.)
I agree, so I'd say let's delay completing the Great Library for a couple of turns until we have the prophet - I think we can risk that, given the head start we should have on the wonder.

-Kylearan

:agree: Getting that great Prophet is very important... even just a couple % points extra is too much risk imho.

Like Kylearan says, the risk of losing the GL is very very slight... so we should try to make our odds of getting a Great Scientist on our first pop equally slight.

:agree: Getting that great Prophet is very important... even just a couple % points extra is too much risk imho.

Like Kylearan says, the risk of losing the GL is very very slight... so we should try to make our odds of getting a Great Scientist on our first pop equally slight.

I'll have the numbers in a minute as I jsut posted "our current state" save :)

I don't like giving up 8 gpp and 6 beakers for a tiny chance at a great prophet. A scientist is more valuable than a prophet anyway in our current situtation.

I'm sure we will pop at least 4 more GPs from the capital, all with 25% chance of a prophet.

I don't like giving up 8 gpp and 6 beakers for a tiny chance at a great prophet. A scientist is more valuable than a prophet anyway in our current situtation.

I'm sure we will pop at least 4 more GPs from the capital, all with 25% chance of a prophet.

Very true I just ran the simulation and it makes a difference of 1%

So there is no point changing hte build order :)

:eek: Help :eek:

Workers need Orders :crazyeye:

Last Turn I was Free Lance With Peter Grimes and started to build a farm (I hate farms :lol: )

Small note on GP point generation:

I've read a Strategy Article (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=146174) that researched how GPPs accumulate. It's not just the number of sources, but also the number of turns of each source that matter.

So with 1 turn of 3 sources of science points, we're not substantially changing the odds of popping a Great Prophet.

Kudos to Kylearan :)

The first post in Kylearan's article is out of date. They changed the formula so total turns don't matter, only total sources-per-turn.

Hmmm... Is that accurate to 1.68 [or whatever the current patch is?] :hmm:

1. Would it make more sense to Chop the Jungle before creating the road?
>>Borders expand in 5 turn, city gorws in 6, Chop takes 5 turns (road 2) thsu we would havea +2 :food: + 1 :commerce: tile for the citizen to work?

2. Should EE switch back to an axeman (for the cycle) next turn or complete the worker (it has 1 turn to go)

3. Sould Immortal Keep switch to the Farm once Peter is done next turn?

4. What should we research next?

Have we decided what is best to build next in Port of Mists? All those 3 :gold: coast tiles are just begging to be worked :)

I'd say either a granary or a lighthouse. I now await a firm schooling ;)

Have we decided what is best to build next in Port of Mists? All those 3 :gold: coast tiles are just begging to be worked :)

I'd say either a granary or a lighthouse. I now await a firm schooling ;)

Well we have a already :whipped: out a granary... ;)
And a forge is in place :goodjob:

The next build sequence is in the turn orders thread.

However I wanted to ask Dave.

With us being so close to optics do we want to build a galley or wait for a Caravel?

Hmm, you're right a caravel would be better.

However - it's likely we will want to transport units to the off-shore islands that we can glimpse through the fog. If not sending settlers, then maybe scouts to pop huts or get a look at what's inland.
If we're going to want a Galley eventually, maybe we should go ahead and get it now while we're waiting for Optics?

But in general, I agree. Caravels are MUCH more important.

EDIT: just remembered that Caravels CAN carry scouts... I was thinking it was just Spies, Missionaries, & GP for some reason. :blush: ... carry on.

Well, we'll need a scout to go on the caravel, too :)

Now would be a great window to pick up drama.... Can't research optics till we get machinery (at least 2 turns).

Drama is a 3 turn research (the cheapest one)

Then we can also work towards the Globe... :)

Good idea! :thumbsup:

Unless we just want to stockpile gold to help us speed along the rest of our path?
Stockpiling gold would lose us the benifits of our libraries and monastary though... so I'd vote for getting Drama :)

A library and monastery is insignificant compared to the bonus we get when our Academy is built. Saving up money gives us a faster beeline later.

A library and monastery is insignificant compared to the bonus we get when our Academy is built. Saving up money gives us a faster beeline later.

So your Orders Are to switch to 0% :science:? Until we can start to research Optics?

We are going to start on a Spearman?... I'd think another Catapult or Xbow or Mace would be more desirable.

Of course, I'm open to persuasion :)

EDIT - is the spear better due to cheaper hammer cost, so that overflow can be applied? If so, then I completely agree :)

We have been investing a lot in our capital at the expense of the rest of the empire. Of course it paid off with our monster science rate.

Is it time for the capital to give back to the empire by producing settlers?

Or should I keep making it bigger with more cottages worked?

Well Here is How I see it.

We want Optics for the Caravels. After that we have little push for science until we get paper. So we could pick up Drama in there while we are waiting.

(Ideally, Read General_W, if we knew how long it was until until Pfiffle had paper?)

In any event if we shut down the Capital for 1-2 Settlers
We can stock pile some :gold: and shut off our :science:.
(While we wait for the Great Scientist :gp:)

This will allow us to get Our Eastern Border Up and Running:

Defence Minister: I suggest this be where we send our Maceman as to Remind Innovia how much stronger we are ;) )
That way he will be ahead of the Settler and can fortify in Sunrise Stronghold.

The next settler out of the gates can set up IronWorks as by then our two workers will be looking for something to do.

So from my point of view we need to set up other cities now, so that once we get education, we can fast track some Universities :goodjob:

We will get 1-2 settlers from our other cities no problem. My question is do we want MORE settlers from the capital, or should it just keep growing?

Pop rush the granary ASAP.

Have you no mercy for the peasants?:borg:

Have you no mercy for the children of the peasants? :please:

Have you no mercy for the men who must do your biddings and suffer mentally the rest of their lives? :whipped:

There are better ways than this. Let us not oppress the working class!

Sounds like someone is itchin' for a Revolution!... What do you suggest, O Activist? Would a Caste System suit you better?

After all, work has to be completed, quotas must be met, and troops must be trained. Otherwise the Imperialists on our borders will jump at the slightest chance to enslave us!!

Have you no mercy for the children of the peasants? :please:

We are doing it for the children!

The average peasant dies from disease or malnutrition at the age of 17. This granary will prevent the food supply from spoiling, increasing the life expectancy to 28!

And not only will our children be healthier, there will be more of them! That's right, the granary is such a sexy building that it causes the birth rate to double!

I'm sure you will agree this is a noble sacrifice for the future of our country. We will of course remember the sacrifice our granary-builder-ancestors by worshiping them in the Confucian temples. What, we have no temples? Get out the whip! :whipped:

:lol: I love it! :lol:


We will get 1-2 settlers from our other cities no problem. My question is do we want MORE settlers from the capital, or should it just keep growing?
No one has really addressed this... personally, I think it's about time to boost the number of our cities a bit. I guess I'd like to see 1 settler come out of our Capital to complement the other 2 we produce elsewhere... then depending on what we find with our Caravel, we may want a 4th settler to grab some land off-shore asap.

Wow - Thanks for getting us back to that, General_W!... I don't know how it happened, but I missed those posts somehow :blush:

Everyone else is whacking down towns with abandon, and barbs are showing up every other turn. If we're going to be sending out several settlers, then we need a couple more units to help guard them, while still leaving enough of a rapid response force to guard our existing cities from new barb incursions.

So as a citizen, I say "More Cities!", as Defense Minister, I say "More Units!" :crazyeye:

EDIT: Where's the DotMap?

Here's the most recent version, with proposed names.
So far, no one has disputed this, afaik.

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/3172/113settlementplannewnamka7.th.jpg (http://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=113settlementplannewnamka7.jpg)

or the full version without going off-site:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/113-SettlementPlan_newNames_v1-1.jpg

I am good with All cities and names...what I am curious about is the order :D

Current order plan, as last discussed:
1) Point Defiance (to be captured next turn)
2) Overlook Bay
3) Mighty Bulwark
4) Sunrise Citadel
5) Argyle Watch
6) Icy Redoubt
7) Scion City
8) Sanctuary West


But I'll go ahead and move this to the Presidents thread for further discussion, before we hijack the Domestic thread too far on the settlement plans.

Here we should discuss how many settlers to build – but discussion of WHERE to build is the purview of the President.

Sounds like someone is itchin' for a Revolution!... What do you suggest, O Activist? Would a Caste System suit you better?

After all, work has to be completed, quotas must be met, and troops must be trained. Otherwise the Imperialists on our borders will jump at the slightest chance to enslave us!!
I want Emancipation! Let us take the steps to learn about an idea that came to me (must have been Confucious's influence on my thoughts) the other day - Democracy. We all should be able to vote on what happens to our country. Let the voice of the people dictate actions. No more of this slavery nonsense (though I may be willing to settle on a Caste System for a compromise while we research the requirements to institute a Democratic institution).

We are doing it for the children!

The average peasant dies from disease or malnutrition at the age of 17. This granary will prevent the food supply from spoiling, increasing the life expectancy to 28!
Where are you getting these statistics? Our life expectancy is influenced almost solely by children's survival rates. Once someone lives to the age of 15, their life expectancy increases to 54. The effect of the granary is more likely in the range of a 2-3 year increase.

And not only will our children be healthier, there will be more of them! That's right, the granary is such a sexy building that it causes the birth rate to double!

You may think it is sexy from your luxurious home miles away, but what about those that live in its shadow and must live near the stench and waste of the horse-drawn carts bringing the food?

I'm sure you will agree this is a noble sacrifice for the future of our country. We will of course remember the sacrifice our granary-builder-ancestors by worshiping them in the Confucian temples. What, we have no temples? Get out the whip!

I think it is far more likely that somehow your name will end up in the temples. Don't get me started on how the state religion is controlled by the state and the state is controlled by the upper class.

NOTE: The above insults are meant in good taste as a result of my role-playing and attempt to generate more fun into this team. If you have an objection, feel free to PM me.

You may think it is sexy from your luxurious home miles away, but what about those that live in its shadow and must live near the stench and waste of the horse-drawn carts bringing the food?


Well before this building when I :whipped: at the order of our O so Mercyful and all knowing Domestic Minister, is was those who lived in the shadows that made the sacrifice, and they saw no benefit just decreases in numbers.
Living with the stench now is all a very generous deal for beign able to eat.

Some of them even got :mad:, so We opted to appease them and send in many warriors to cheer them up :). This :) is due Largly to a great choice in Government!

To add to this just Recently My throne was Studded with many different Jewels. This makes everyone happy. Actually it makes them 2 times as happy as other nations, because they remeber the :whipped: ...err I mean hard work...that thier grandfathers put into another wonderous building known as the "Forge"!

Requesting Belssing of the Domestic Minister to "turn off" Research after we aquire Optics. (Until We aquire Paper)

Reasons:

1. We want to run at 100% after our GS is born in the Capital
2. We Education ASAP and want to run at 100%, to Do this we need :gold:
3. We have no other "crucial" tech required.

The remaining :science: should be put towars Drama IMO, but what do I know.

I agree. I think we might as well finish Drama though, dropping research on the last turn so there is no overflow.

Well before this building when I at the order of our O so Mercyful and all knowing Domestic Minister, is was those who lived in the shadows that made the sacrifice, and they saw no benefit just decreases in numbers.
Living with the stench now is all a very generous deal for beign able to eat.

Some of them even got , so We opted to appease them and send in many warriors to cheer them up . This is due Largly to a great choice in Government!

To add to this just Recently My throne was Studded with many different Jewels. This makes everyone happy. Actually it makes them 2 times as happy as other nations, because they remeber the ...err I mean hard work...that thier grandfathers put into another wonderous building known as the "Forge"!

Oh, very nice. President, eh! I expect you've got a palace and fine clothes and courtiers and plenty of food. And how d'you get that? By exploiting the workers! By hanging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the social and economic differences in our society!

We're living in a dictatorship, A self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes ...

You can gather all the filth you want, GB ;)

Just remember: All for the greater good of The Leader :worship:

Alot of things needs orders this turn.

1. What does Port of Mists build now?
2. What does the worked who completed the mine on the hill by port of Mists do?

....Oh wait that is it :lol:

Should we Let the catapult go next turn so That the holy city can grow to size 3? then whip? Or crack the Whip for 1 Pop next turn. (60 :hammers:) but then city size is 1. (will grow to 2 interturn)

Dave I was just Looking at this and crunched the numbers.

The Missionary can be done in 2 turns. On the Last turn there will be 17 :hammers: Overflow. This will give us the Settler in 4 Turns there After ( 17 + 19 :hammers: & 3 :food: = 39 :hammers: Turn 1, 22 :hammers: afterwards = 4 turns.)

If we switch to the Settler this turn it will take 5 Turns 22 * 5 > 100 :hammers:

Anyways long Story short I think it is better to wait on the settler for the "1" turn to get the missionary out so he can jump on the boat at the same time as the Settler (From Port of Mists Done next turn) to Head of To Sunrise Citadel. (As the Ivory and Pigs Can't be worked until the borders expand, and to minimize forgien religion spread)

Timing it out the Settler will take 5 Turns to Get to Sunset Fortress the same time the Galley can Be whipped (with Overflow from forge). The Trip will take 3 and half Turns. Totaled this is 8~9 turns to get there. Wouldn't you know it that if all goes well the Axeman will be there at the same time ;) (9 turns at the moment, 11 For the Catapult, 12 for the Maceman)

So Long Story Short...I think the 1 turn delay on the settler is worth it at this point.

As for the boat it can pick the worker up round two. (By then we will be in a better worker situation anyways)

Just thought I would add this here so everyone can read it (not sure if everyone reads turn orders)

Our Newest Worker needs some orders :)

Connect the bananas.