The Coalition of the New

This is the party/citizien group devoted to and run by new players or Tolerant Vets.

Mission Statement
We are commited to help the new players
We are commited to helping new players or tolerant vet reach office
We are commited to stopping Vetism at every corner
We are commited to upholding the consitution and this Demogame
We are the Future of the Civ4 demogame

What is Vetism?
Vetism is the beleif that since Veteran players are better than you or I because of there post count or because they are hold-overs from the previous demogames
A There are many different types of vetists, ranging from those who are passive vetists, to those who will ignroe/ridicule you for your lack of experience. Exact defintions for the kinds and types of vetism will be dicuss later on
Not all veterans are vetists though, so give everyone a chance before you right them off as a vetist.

How to Join?
Just post here, or PM me. Its as easy as that

Anything Else
Feel free to post questions here, or to pm strider(he is a very helpful person)
There is no party structure or official positions. We are a NOOB union, a coalition of the new.

Member List:
Swissempire
Robboo
I am the Future
Oldbus
BCLG100
Methos

Sign me up

We almost have as many people as the coalition of the willing:crazyeye:

2 people can make a difference...LETS GO!!

Sign me up.

THough I will say voting for people with 2000 posts is a good idea ;)

Sign me up.

THough I will say voting for people with 2000 posts is a good idea ;)


You better post a few more times before you vote for yourself then...;)

I got 2001 now!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd like to sign up to this. I'm a noob to the Demo Game and I don't get an awful lot of time to contribute, but I have been trying to keep up with what has been happening. I'm offering a few thoughts as well as signing up. It deliberately doesn't have names as I hope to look positively to what we can do in the future, rather than what has happened.

One thing I haven't been very happy about is the way some of our officials (especially, but not exclusively, new folk) have been pounced upon when they have made decisions that were either: against our Constitution/CoL, very unwise with hindsight or did not meet with everyone's approval. I'm not saying that we don't need to correct our officials if we get it wrong or that we shouldn't express an opinion on the way our officials conduct themselves, but there are different ways to do this. I would suggest that being fairly rude to them and implying they are unaware of the way things have always been done or don't have the citizen's interests at heart is not a good way of doing this.

I joined the Demo Game after all the Alphawolf incident and, apart from one person whose posts I found a bit suspect (but who has since left the game and is therefore irrelevant) I don't think I have come across anyone here who did not have the interests of the DG and its citizens at heart. I think they may have made some wrong decisions that weren't in our interests, but I think from what I have read that these were merely mistakes and that no-one has any intention of repeating them.

I am particularly concerned about the stuff to do with officials because I know I would have made many of the same mistakes if I had been in office. I am beginning to see the light on the views about the amount of power elected officials have and just how important the Instruction thread is and how important it is to stop the turnchat rather than make important decisions on the fly that we as citizens must decide. I expect the reasons for my slow understanding are bringing with me a perception of the powers of elected officials from real life, combined with an obscurity of information in the Demo Game. When I joined I made a real effort to read the threads, read turnchat logs and I've even had a few stabs at the Constitution/CoL. However, it was not at all obvious to me that this was how the game was expected to function. I appreciate I have no skills at reading legal docs, but there may be grounds for clarifying them. Some of the arguments put forward have sounded very much like interpretation and when it is just interpretation then people can have differing views. It also hasn't helped that many of our more experienced members haven't upheld the spirit of the rules at times either and reading turnchat logs etc. can give a misleading impression. I think one of the things the Coalition might do is ask Strider to add info about this issue to the Information Department. This would include information for new citizens and fairly clear guidelines for new officials.

However, we might consider putting these guidelines up for review first. It seems that others have different opinions over this crucial issue and just because I and others want to play the Demo Game this way, doesn't mean everyone wants to. Whether or not previous Demo Games have been played this way I would say is irrelevant.

This brings me on to another point. While experience is very helpful, a statement like "X will not work - see DG N" is not. However, if someone says "I don't think X will work because of Y. We had experience in DG N" then that is rather different. I'm all for learning from past mistakes, but if you have experience to offer, then offer us newbies the insight from your experience. I don't intend to trawl vast amounts of previous posts from a DG I've never been involved in to pick up that wisdom.

Anyway, I hope that if anyone has read this ramble you have taken it in the spirit it was meant – some positive ideas for our future. :)

:clap: Oldbus, thats what i feel like a lot of time too. Its a new demogame, but sometimes it feels like people don't regonize that. I would love to here more about your guidlines idea!

With elections coming soon we need to target new players and ask them to run for offices.

I will be running for an office but I am unsure which one. IN addition I contacted a "new" player prior to this thread and I feel sure he will run for an office also.

/notice..to follow the rules..I did not say vote only for new players I said target them to run. I will still vote based on what people say and their past actions.

I agree Robboo. See there is a fine line between Slate voting and what is happening here. Since a CG or PP is a group of people who belive the smae thing, stating that they should vote for someone because that person matches the beleif of the party is not slate voting. Slate voting is only saying they must vote for so and so.

I think you should run again for Sec. of War. I don;t know what to run for though, because my Censor Term Expires. Maybe Minister of Culture. Any Suggestions?

I still think you should run of Sec. of State Oldbus.

I'll join, people take this game faaaaaaaaaaaar too seriously and many take themselves far too seriously as well.

Yay, BCLG, welcome. I agree entirely

I dont know where I will run yet. I have to check on a few times around home first to see my commitment level.

I asked pajka to run for something...he will be nominated by me once I talk to him.

BCLG..what are you interested in runing for.

Probably nothing again :) theres a reason why i havnt run for anything for like 2 years :)

A couple of People have decided to campaign for the "Experienced Judicary". I find this quite distressing. I had no plans on voting for an all "N00b Judiciary", i was going to evaulate opinions. But now during elections we see the Civ3 demogamers coming out to campaign to make the Civ4 demogame nothing more than the civ3 one wiht a different version. I like to think of myself as an experienced player, but if the fact that i didn't partcipate in the Civ3 demogames is going to be held against me in the elections, i am quite distressed. I have participated in the Civ4 DG since the beginning, and have run for/held office in all three terms. If it is going to be held against me that i have never run for judicary before, even in a previous demogame, i am outraged. This is quite blatant vetism! I point you to this phrase Everyone needs to realize that now is not the time to nurture the ambitions of judicial newcomers:mad:

I quite agree on this. My personal feelings on this is that I would like a judiciary (and a goverment) with a good balance of new and experienced folks. In practice I shall be voting for whoever has put up a good argument in the nomination/voting threads and whoever has shown good sense in relevant postings over recent weeks (if appropriate) - DG age will not be a factor.

What is rather sad about this is that DZ made the posting and up until now I have had great respect for his posts.

One of the annoying things is that, even if you subscribe to the view that things have come off the rails, it is certainly not newbies that are only at fault.

Well its time to hurt them...him in particular at the voting box.

There is no different in what he just said than us saying only vote for a certain party. In My opinion and only my opinion it violates the spirit of the "rule " that states political partys cant "block vote". That is basically what he is doing.

It seems that my words have caused an unintended firestorm, for which I apologize profusely. Please read my statement in the Presidential election thread and vote your conscience:

Public Apology (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3855782&postcount=3)

For the record, I have always been a strong supporter of newcomers to the game, giving credit where it is due. I hope that I can regain your collective trust again some day.

Vetism is the beleif that since Veteran players are better than you or I because of there post count or because they are hold-overs from the previous demogames

Well, my post count appears to be towards the top of most of the DG players, but my experience here is almost non-existent. I’d like to join this group as I feel we can learn from all players, green or not. I'm hoping to learn a lot from everyone here.

DZ.. you still have my vote..see the presidential thread as to why. I urge all the coalition of the new to read what I wrote and decide from there.

Well, my post count appears to be towards the top of most of the DG players, but my experience here is almost non-existent. I’d like to join this group as I feel we can learn from all players, green or not. I'm hoping to learn a lot from everyone here.

Dont worry about it, my p/c is also right up there, ive been involved in the demogame for years and yet you could still class me as a newbie because unlike some people i treat this as a game not real life.

Now, i think, would be a good time to start the types of Vetism discusstion. What types do you think there are, and what kind of person fits in that type. What are the tell-tale signs.
Just some basic ones IMO:

Passive Vetist: Person doesn't advertise his views, but every once in a while a comment will slip. Has the tendency to hope on the blame bandwagon when it involves new players. Sometimes helps new players out, but the vetism is still there.

Aggresive Vetist: Advetises views, make many comments about how veterans are better. Usually drives the bandwagon in blaming new players, refuses to see fault in self or veterans, instead choosing to blame the new guy.

Traditonalist: Hangs on to tradition, expects that it will be followed and headed because its all the persons ever known. Fights hard against change, lives in the past

Please contribute

To add to the discussion...How long before a newbie becomes a vet?

I will think about your points Swiss and add to them later.

Please contribute

Of course!

Clueless new: Refuses to learn anything about the DG, insists that anything old is bad. Leads the charge when blaming veteran players

Semi-Inquisitive new: Sometimes learns about the DG, but only when it suites them. Tends to follow along when veteran players are blamed.

Participative new: Learns how the DG works, and finds solutions to problems. Believes there are experience, and inexperience players, and learns from both.

I'll keep working on the list for you.

-- Ravensfire

Good, thank you Ravensfire. I wouldn't what it to be one sided:)

I would classify my self as a Particpative Semi-Clueless New. I tend to lead the charge when blaming veterans, but at the same time Learns how the DG works, and finds solutions to problems.

I think though that clueless should be changed to something a little less... insulting. But the other two are good:goodjob:

Wow. There is a serious disconnect going on between the vets and noobs. How can we bridge this gap?

With a bridge of understanding:)
and happiness:)
and love:)
And the concession that this is a new demogame, that all players are equal in this new demogame regardless of previous DG's, that since this is a new demogame that we should be a happy family, and view this as a new beggining, not as an extension of demogames past. That traditions can change or be disregarded, and that there is, was and will be a difference between the Civ4 DG's and the Civ3 ones.


I will go back to respecting my elders if they respect me.

What traditions do you think must be changed, Swiss? As far as I can see, the only tradition you are railing against is the tradition of accurately interpreting our laws.

I am sorry, brothers and sisters, but flowery prose is no replacement for sound judicial acumen. I guess that my attempts to uphold the latter standard makes me a stodgy veteran.

BTW, wouldn't a vetist be defined as one who was anti-vet? :lol:

I am trying to bridge the gap...hence my question. When does a noob become a vet.

This is my second term in the Tri..am I there yet? Maybe I am a Noob Vet.

Darn it Swiss, I was hoping the answer was "when we storm the Bastille and the enemies of the people meet the blade." I think one of you should write a manifesto and we should have a revolution.

:lol: I hope everyone know I'm kidding.

Hey I am in charge of the military...viva la revolution.

/joking...especially since we almost have as many workers as units.

Wait a minute, on saturday I take control of the workers. Viva la revolution! Down with our imperial oppressors. We shall march on Boaring Wallow.

I pm'd Tubby....he said he already has one angry citizen there so what's a few more!

Hey are you still in charge of spies too...

/This thing might have legs after all...

I pm'd Tubby....he said he already has one angry citizen there so what's a few more!

You future citizens will start getting angry soon too...want to join the revolution Whomper...:crazyeye:

/dang it we are spamming our own Coalition.

N00B REVOLUTION!!!! Aiiiiii.....

As to DZ, you seem to be missing the point where ITS NOT ENTIRELY UP TO YOU AS TO WHAT THE CORRECT INTRPETATION OF THE LAW IS. We both obviously intrperet it different ways. We are upholding the tradition of accurately upholding the laws. In fact, a mjority of the citizienry agrees. But they can't be right can they.

My refferals to traditions is a broad one. That in this new DG, we deserve a chance to create our own traditions, to SHAPE OUR GAME. You are a part of that, i am a part of that, everyone here is a part of that. But the Civ3 DG traditions are exactly that, the Civ3 DG's traditions. The Civ4's traditons will be shaped and are being shaped. This reminds me of that Who song *starts humming*

Wow. There is a serious disconnect going on between the vets and noobs. How can we bridge this gap?

See the post I quoted part of? That's certainly not going to help. More the opposite - it pissed me off to no end.

What does help? There isn't anything wrong with people asking why certain things are considered "tradition". There also isn't anything wrong with changing or disregarding them.

It doesn't take much to be polite to people. Likewise, if you feel that someone is talking down to you, calling them on it politely is pretty easy. All of that would dramatically help in this. There's a great deal of hostility directed by a few people involved in this that keeps tensions high.

I would ask that those new to the game remember that those that have been in this for years do have reasons for some of our actions and traditions. We've been through countless arguements and seen what some things can do to the DG.

There's a great deal of respect for the concept of the DG in nearly everyone here, it's just shown in different ways.

-- Ravensfire

You future citizens will start getting angry soon too...want to join the revolution Whomper...:crazyeye:

/dang it we are spamming our own Coalition.
How about another worker for the military?

whip whip whip...yippeee. That will teach them to be angry.

Food for thought ...Look at the total numbers of votes...16 to 18 people could control this game. If enough people get fed up with something it could happen.

I am not advocating a block vote. Its a warning to both sides of the arguement...we need to work for a middle ground and dont let this turn into a us vs them thing. Otherwise one side is going to lose what control/influence they might have.

See the post I quoted part of? That's certainly not going to help. More the opposite - it pissed me off to no endReally it was in response to your Clueless new and Swissie's Aggresive Vetist comments. I'm trying to cool things off here Ravensfire.

In fact, if anything I think you two should edit your posts but I can't control that. It's each of your opinions.

See the post I quoted part of? That's certainly not going to help. More the opposite - it pissed me off to no end.

What does help? There isn't anything wrong with people asking why certain things are considered "tradition". There also isn't anything wrong with changing or disregarding them.

It doesn't take much to be polite to people. Likewise, if you feel that someone is talking down to you, calling them on it politely is pretty easy. All of that would dramatically help in this. There's a great deal of hostility directed by a few people involved in this that keeps tensions high.

I would ask that those new to the game remember that those that have been in this for years do have reasons for some of our actions and traditions. We've been through countless arguements and seen what some things can do to the DG.

There's a great deal of respect for the concept of the DG in nearly everyone here, it's just shown in different ways.

-- Ravensfire

I think you hit it dead on Ravensfire. We all love the DG and are showing it in every way we can. I feel i'm tryin to make it better. Obviously veryone here does.

As for the politness thing. I tried to be polite. I tried weeks of politeness. It didn't work. So i created this, which was supposed to be a polite way of saying "We're people too, so knock of the vetism". That didn't work, so (i can't speak for anyone but myself) I fought back.

As for the arguements arguement, i think all we are asking is for the chance to have those arguments, to experience the thrill of shaping something so great as a demogame. We want to have a chance to make our own mistakes, to have our own scandals and contraversies. Really its quite annoy when a good debate is going and some vet comes in and says "Ahh, no big deal, see DG3" or comes in with that been there, done that attitude. All i ask for is for this DG to be treated as the beginning of a new era, not the extension of an old one

Really it was in response to your Clueless new and Swissie's Aggresive Vetist comments. I'm trying to cool things off here Ravensfire.

In fact, if anything I think you two should edit your posts but I can't control that. It's each of your opinions.
Mr. Idiot, i'm okay with being clueless:goodjob:

I think you hit it dead on Ravensfire. We all love the DG and are showing it in every way we can. I feel i'm tryin to make it better. Obviously veryone here does.

As for the politness thing. I tried to be polite. I tried weeks of politeness. It didn't work. So i created this, which was supposed to be a polite way of saying "We're people too, so knock of the vetism". That didn't work, so (i can't speak for anyone but myself) I fought back.

As for the arguements arguement, i think all we are asking is for the chance to have those arguments, to experience the thrill of shaping something so great as a demogame. We want to have a chance to make our own mistakes, to have our own scandals and contraversies. Really its quite annoy when a good debate is going and some vet comes in and says "Ahh, no big deal, see DG3" or comes in with that been there, done that attitude. All i ask for is for this DG to be treated as the beginning of a new era, not the extension of an old one

For the record, you can count me out from the people that openly pined for the days of DG3. The things that have ticked me off are (or should be) universal to all demogames. Just do the right thing, brothers and sisters.

If the right thing had been done, we would have a very popular new Chief Justice and little to no controversy at this point. Instead stubbornness prevailed and was applauded, and you know the rest.

I'll admit that I have been a bit stubborn myself of late, so I am going to take a step back toward middle ground. After all, that's usually where you will find me.

\

If the right thing had been done, we would have a very popular new Chief Justice and little to no controversy at this point. Instead stubbornness prevailed and was applauded, and you know the rest.

The wierd thing is, that could go either way. But in the interest of the demogame, i will hand in my soapbox. I will return to Boaring Wallow and sell ribbon with my father. "Ribbon, get your ribbon, Great for presents"

I'm not taking sides in any of this. I just spammed this thread, thought it was funny, and kept spamming.

I agree with Swiss's comment that DG4 needs to be treated differently than DG3. Not only is it a different game, the laws we created are totally different. I don't like hearing about DG3, like you are trying to explain your actions not what we need to do next.

But I also realize that the people who were in DG3 have more experience in this type of thing. Plus, they formed bonds and know each other better than other people on the board. So they shouldn't be ignored.

Yes this is a dicotomy(sp?) that doesn't always go well together. But I will try my darndest to do it. This is the first election cycle I took previous DG experience into account. I made sure I voted for the same number of veterans as noobs.

The Demogame is a precious thing. Its a living breathing ever evolving thing that we must try to take care of. And while things got ugly for a while and will get ugly again, thats part of th ebeuaty of the demogame. That we can have giant arguments, ridcule and belittle others, and the next day calm down adn buy them a :beer: and put it all behind us.

Reminds of that song "Respect"

R-E-S-P-E-C-t?

We all want it, and hoepfully we should all get it. No one is better than anyone else. United we stand, divided we fall

So I dont have to order my troops to kill the president and judiciary...

Dang it. They want to fight.

:)

I will agree that what DZ originally said was wrong IMO, but I'd also like to point out that DZ has been publicly apologizing like crazy in multiple threads and no one is paying attention. I'm amazed he/she hasn't gotten upset yet. I understand everyone's anger, but is it that bad to hold on to for this long? Let it go people, please. DZ made one statement and has been apologizing like crazy. Accept it and move on. If he does it again (which I don't think he would) than I could understand the anger.

I realize, or am hoping, that discussion of a rebellion is everyone merely joking. But in all honestly it makes me think of dropping out of this political party. I joined this party as I thought it was to let the veterans know that I was a noob and needed advice and guidance while learning the game. I didn't realize it was a slam versus vets.

Please note none of the above is anger talking. Text doesn't do well in showing emotion, so instead I'll just say my emotion while writing this is me being tired. Please let things lie, and look at the fun of the game. We're all human and we make mistakes. I'm made a ton of them in my life and will make a ton more.

@DZ: I'm looking forward to playing with you fellow citizen. Keep up the good work and let's have fun!

Agreed Methos. Donovan Zoi has made amends in my eyes.

I wish some of the other vets and noobs would cool off and focus on the big picture. There's a lot of work to be done and we are nowhere near our ultimate destiny.

should just scrap the constitution and everyone just take a go at playing ;)

@ Methos, the rebllion is a joke or a roleplay thing. Not happening. But this isn't about just DZ, and while he made a apology, ablbeit a weak one, i respect him for that. As i explained, this party was formed only as a lat ditch effort, then it turned into semi-roleplaying, but THEN we had big argument.

This is about an attitude and trying to change it. I agree that DZ's comment wasn't more then maybe a little Passive Vetist, but thats it, And by making ameds, he is more of a man in my eyes. We should go back to having fun.

@Robboo, Call off the hits for now. But keep Target Duck in site;)

@Swiss:
axmen like duck....very good roasted over a nice open fire..mmm yummy.