GOTM - 53: Celts

Civilization: Celts / Keltoi (Unique Unit = Gaelic Swordsman, 3,2,2).
Rivals: 5 pre-selected.
Barbarians: None.
Difficulty: Regent.
Land Form: Archipelago, 60% ocean, small map.
Geology: 5 billion years old, arid, temperate.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/gotm53large.jpg
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/gotm53mini.jpg

Conquest-Class Bonuses:
Gaellic Swordsman cost reduced to 40.
Start with alphabet.


Predator-Class Equalisers:
Spearman cost reduced to 10.
All AIs start with bronze working.

Mapsize???

:ack: Small.

celts on arch - that will be interesting.

This is an interesting challenge - we have the need to head for mapmaking, so we can make contacts.

We have the need to head for monarchy if we plan on making war.. though Celts are religious, so we can switch easily enough...

We have the need to head to iron working to get our UU...

We have gold to help with research and upgrades.

I'd like to research Alphabet to start with. Map Making and The Republic are the important Technologies. We will trade for Iron Working. We'll have no or little use for Gallic Swordsmen before we have Galleys. This not being Conquests, I'll go for Map Making first unless my Warriors meet a very scientifically forwards AI before that, who can research it for me.

There appears to be very little land where we stand, which is also to be expected on a small archipelago. If we settle in place, the city will work the game forest for two food and two shields for the first ten turns until cultural expansion. Then a Bonus Grassland ought to be ready for use, i.e. roaded and mined, which it will be if we go N with the Worker straight for it.

However, I'd rather move the Worker up on the Hill SE to have a look-see before settling. SE, SE could also be a BG, then we didn't lose anything. I'm not really expecting to find either a Hut, Fresh Water or another food Resource, but I also don't want to discount the possibility completely.

Using the Gallic Swordsmen on Archipelago shouldn't be problematic. They are just early Knights which we send with Galleys to bang heads.

The Great Lighthouse could be a useful Wonder for speed of troop movement and for finding the AI faster. Especially with a pre-build, e.g. using Palace in the second city. Also Galleys should be pre-built.

The Predator malus is interesting. The AI will be able to build twice as many Spearmen, but has no rebate on other kinds of troop. On Regent, the AI is pretty crippled, so what's the deal? Perhaps the islands are so small as to allow the AI to cover them with Spearmen making it impossible to land on their shores? But then we'd have been the Vikings. I don't get it.

Regent, Small and Archipelago. Sounds liek a map made for me, the only question being, what has Evil ainwood added this time, to make it a felt Deity map :-).

Anyway, the Island looks a bit bigger and greener than the babylonians in GOTM44 and I menged that one.

No barbarians means, I miss out on that 25-50 gold from warring tribes.

I think I most likely settle on spot, so move the worker north and wait for the warrior to do the exploring.

Giving the starting specs (no fresh water visible and no barbs) I'll go for an early granary. When there's a neighbour on the land then an early archer will be handy. Capturing some slaves will make a difference when our start is indeed food-poor.

I agree that mapmaking is the primary research goal. Don't know what I'll research then.

The Predator malus is interesting. The AI will be able to build twice as many Spearmen, but has no rebate on other kinds of troop. On Regent, the AI is pretty crippled, so what's the deal?

I don't expect the AI will have more units. Probably the AI will now have spears were he normally would have had warriors. So only the relative number of spears is likely to go up.
When defending his cities, the AI will have little advantage. Poprushing spears will take 1 pop, regardless if they're worth 10 or 20 shields.

How do you expect to capture them? Attacking these Spearman escorted Settlers? Won't that put you in an early war where you must divert to many resources from City Building?

Giving the starting specs (no fresh water visible and no barbs) I'll go for an early granary.

Chopping the Game forest wins ten shields and one food per turn and should be done pretty soon. Sounds good to use the shields towards a Granary. But some mining must be done first, since chopping takes a whopping ten turns.

When defending his cities, the AI will have little advantage. Poprushing spears will take 1 pop, regardless if they're worth 10 or 20 shields.

So the mystery thickens. Looks more and more like an invitation to an Open Class Archer Rush. I think we are not alone.

When defending his cities, the AI will have little advantage. Poprushing spears will take 1 pop, regardless if they're worth 10 or 20 shields.

But does the AI not use normal building during peacetime? Half price spears on small islands sounds like the Dutch sid game to me. The AI should overbuild spears - particularly if they can be kept apart, and thus backwards on tech, and thus unable to do the more time-consuming buildings. Overbuilding units has two effects; (1) the AI pays too much cash in support, and the tech pace stalls, (2) it is very difficult to make a landing on their island. Difficult, but not impossible, as these units all shuffle tirelessly around, so patience and large fleets of galleys carrying 10-shield spears should be able to find free landing spots.
Raping ROPs sounds like the way to go.

Half price spears on small islands

Have tried the settings. The islands are far from small. More like continents with several tribes on each. Sorry if my initial comments were misleading. Have played a few 80% water archipelago maps lately and forgot what 60% means.

How do you expect to capture them? Attacking these Spearman escorted Settlers? Won't that put you in an early war where you must divert to many resources from City Building?

It's regent so the AI will be slow with settlers. A barracks is as cheap as an archer, so you can have veteran archers. The map is small so the AI is near. The odds for attacking an escorting, regular spear on flatland with a veteran archer are in favour of the latter.

But who said we couldn't grab an unescorted worker. Or if we're playing open class a settler could very well be escorted by a warrior.

For the counter attack: I don't expect the AI to launch an attack more threatning then raging barbs. That is if they manage to arrive at your lands before peace can be declared.

Chopping the Game forest wins ten shields and one food per turn and should be done pretty soon. Sounds good to use the shields towards a Granary. But some mining must be done first, since chopping takes a whopping ten turns.

Though you are technically right, I just might only road the game. :rolleyes:

So the mystery thickens. Looks more and more like an invitation to an Open Class Archer Rush. I think we are not alone.

hear, hear

But does the AI not use normal building during peacetime? Half price spears on small islands sounds like the Dutch sid game to me. The AI should overbuild spears - particularly if they can be kept apart, and thus backwards on tech, and thus unable to do the more time-consuming buildings. Overbuilding units has two effects; (1) the AI pays too much cash in support, and the tech pace stalls, (2) it is very difficult to make a landing on their island. Difficult, but not impossible, as these units all shuffle tirelessly around, so patience and large fleets of galleys carrying 10-shield spears should be able to find free landing spots.
Raping ROPs sounds like the way to go.

Do you think the AI will overbuild units :hmm: In the dutch-sid the AI had far more unit-support.

The tech pace on regent will normally always stall in the late AA / early MA. If you intend to go for space/diplo, then consider yourself alone (techwise).

The islands are far from small. More like continents with several tribes on each.

Correct. Difference with continents is however that you normally don't need suicide trips to reach the other "continents".

When defending his cities, the AI will have little advantage. Poprushing spears will take 1 pop, regardless if they're worth 10 or 20 shields.
Poprushing costs are doubled if no shields are in the bin, aren´t they? So rushing a spear would take 1 pop where it would normally take 2. Or am I mistaken?

I always thought the AI will orientate the number of units it builds on its support limit rather than the units shield costs. So I think the cheaper units will not result in the AI building more of it. Instead, the AI will start building improvements earlier, as well as REX faster.

No, you're not mistaken. Question is are they rushing with an empty bin?

Do you think the AI will overbuild units :hmm: In the dutch-sid the AI had far more unit-support.


Well, I agree it is a long shot, but I'm trying to think through how the AI in the sid game got into such a state. As usual, the Zulus were the biggest culprit. I suspect they reached the point where they couldn't escape negative gpt, with the result that any time they tried to sail off their island, their galley would become the furthest unit from their capital, and disband at the start of their next turn. Landlocked by their own militarism :lol:
Anyway, the question this raises is: does the AI stop building units when it can no longer finance more, or does it keep building units as long as it has nothing better to do?

I think I'll settle in place and go barracks, archer, archer. Research Alphabet at minimum to save money for an eventual warrior to Gallic Sword upgrade. Trade for Bronze Working and pointy stick Iron Working. Of course I'll need to get to Map Making, but I hope it won't be necessary to research a government. Too optimistic?

If it turns out we're alone, then I'm off to a horrible start, but it's only regent.

If indeed we are not alone, this is probably a very good way to go.
In any case I will try to do without a granary. Our starting location is to far in the north for my taste, so I want to have the option of an early palace jump.
Maybe I will even build one archer or warrior before the barracks to see what else is on our island.

Well, I'm guessing that there is not iron on the SE hill. :lol: I'm not building anything but units until I can see the rest of the land layout - I don't know how many cities you can ring around that area.

After my success in 52, I think I'll go predator here.

Is there a predator challenge here? How about another Predator Conquest challenge?
Not that I'm going to win it... :p but I sure will try!

Is there a predator challenge here? How about another Predator Conquest challenge?

Still need that trophy, so you're on.

@ainwood

Now that I hung myself on a predator game:
Would the predator specs also count towards spear replacements, like hoplites.

Question concerning the Archer rush Strategy. If we are stuck on a medium island with another Brother in Arms at our side, would you consider MM more important or rather sacrifice a lot of speed for an early demolishment of the local AI?

For answering that you have to define your goal:

If your going for say space, diplo or 20K, then on a midsized island with a neighbour MapMaking maybe somewhat less important and you better concentrate first on getting Republic, founding some cities and eliminating your neighbour.

If your going for domination, conquest, 100K or the cow, then Mapmaking is still high priority. But there is still little reason not to conquer your neighbour while researching it.

In this game the destruction of your neighbour is almost always the first thing to consider, after trading for his techs of course. Only when they turn out to be Greek or Carthagian then the archers may not suffice, and you'll need horsemen or even gallics.

@ainwood

Now that I hung myself on a predator game:
Would the predator specs also count towards spear replacements, like hoplites.No - spearmen only.

since I am a peaceful player, I will try Predator-Class for the first time to benifit 10 shields spear too. :D

Celts, my second favorite civ. :D And at Regent, too! I can actually play this one in Open class. (Watch me eat my words!.) :D I usually play Continents but if I go with Archipelago, it's usually 60% water then, as this usually results not so much in larger islands as small continents, and has a 'feel' all of its own, almost.

since I am a peaceful player, I will try Predator-Class for the first time to benifit 10 shields spear too. :D

:thumbsup: Just know that once you've moved up to Predator, it's real difficult to move back down to Open. Pride is a terrible thing :)

:thumbsup: Just know that once you've moved up to Predator, it's real difficult to move back down to Open. Pride is a terrible thing :)

I long ago abandoned the principle of pride, it's not a luxury I can afford as someone who regularly gets a good thrashing at regent level.:blush:

It is not clear if settling in place is the best thing to do or not - i think i will send the worker on a hill to scout before deciding. Being archi (and probably isolated) a beeline to MapMaking seems the obvious research path. Dunno what i'll do yet, probably a 20k attempt or a science run, but if the map is fit enough i won't resist the urge to take over everything :evil:

I haven't played CivIII or C3Q since CivIV came out. Just reading this thread, I am made aware of just how much I have forgotten about 'old school' Civ.

This is 'vanilla' CivIII right? Where Great Leaders are used for rushing Wonders instead of making Armies right? (Armies were worthless in CivIII and over-powered in C3Q).

I believe I may give this a go. Maybe even Predator? Nah, just thinking about how much I have forgotten is enough of a handicap for me.

I have been trying to improve my game in CivIV, playing on Emporer. The civic upkeep is a killer after founding your 3rd city. I'm going to have to force myself to put that down in order to play this. That won't be easy.

I think I will go for domination. I tend to go for peaceful victories, but with the gallics, it seems almost silly not to take over the world...

Hmm... 20K, my favorite?

Religious and militaristic are perfect traits for that in PTW/Vanilla.

Maybe I even do 20K in the capital, despite only 9 workable tiles, and let Leaders do the building. Build lots of UU, and beat everyone until we get lots of GLs - maybe it would work...

Yeah ill give this a go. Open level.

I usually play at mOnarch level so this shouldnt be to tough.

See you in the first spoiler section

Maybe I even do 20K in the capital, despite only 9 workable tiles, and let Leaders do the building. Build lots of UU, and beat everyone until we get lots of GLs - maybe it would work...

Beat everyone - after researching MM and finally getting some suicide galleys over losing the MGL on his way back home? :mischief:

Sounds like a finishing date like 18xx to me :(

I could give this a try :D

Beat everyone - after researching MM and finally getting some suicide galleys over losing the MGL on his way back home? :mischief:


I hope the galleys won't be suicidal, and I also hope AI will build some units for me to kill while I'm waiting for MM and sailing over. :p

Well, Well, Well.

Ive played a few turns on this and its ....
Have fun.Please don't post 'spoiler' comments outside the official spoilers - this is for pre-game strategy, and we don't want people to be spoiled by info from the actual game.

Hm. 10-shield spears. Now I'm almost tempted to try this at Predator level. Almost. I doubt I'll need the Conquest bonus here. (Again watch me eat my words.) :f It looks like a good start for an early production boost; I'll probably go for 20k culture, but if other opportunities arise, then I won't pass them up.

Paul-- with 60% ocean, islands (which tend to be continent-size) are seldom isolated.

In one map test I got a island that almost encircled the world.

How about another Predator Conquest challenge?

OK. I'm in.

Well, Well, Well.

Ive played a few turns on this and its ....
Have fun.Please don't post 'spoiler' comments outside the official spoilers - this is for pre-game strategy, and we don't want people to be spoiled by info from the actual game.
I wanst actually giving away, Only saying the game is interesting and well thought out. But fair eough, I understand your point.

What's the etiquette on adding workers from other cities to increase the population of your 20K city? If your 20K is concentrating on shields it might be helpful to get your growth from elsewhere... Is this in the spirit of the GOTM rules? Also, does anyone think this would actually help? :crazyeye:

What's the etiquette on adding workers from other cities to increase the population of your 20K city? If your 20K is concentrating on shields it might be helpful to get your growth from elsewhere... Is this in the spirit of the GOTM rules? Also, does anyone think this would actually help? :crazyeye:

That seems to be done all the time, I don't think it's a problem.

What's the etiquette on adding workers from other cities to increase the population of your 20K city? If your 20K is concentrating on shields it might be helpful to get your growth from elsewhere... Is this in the spirit of the GOTM rules? Also, does anyone think this would actually help? :crazyeye:
All very well, but If your doing that then you still need to increase your food output in order to supprot the extra pop.
But it is good for a post-hospital pop boom.
Perfectly legitimate though.

@Taxpayer'sMoney

Yes it is legitimate. It's not legitimate to add more then 1 citizen / turn to a city that can't support them.

And yes I find it to be very usefull. In my highest scoring 20K game I had the 20K-city in a shield-rich environment while 2 adjacent cities were producing workers. The workers improved the surroundings of the 20K city. And as soon as a tile was improved, a worker would join the city, so the tile could be worked.

an early warrior to find out whether we're alone and how big (small) this island is. Prolly go for maps asap and have a tight city build. If we're alone there will be no way to build lots of units for an invasion overseas because economy will crash before MM. Celts on regent is such a lay-up for a bloody AA that there has to be something fishy here....no water, no lux, no rescourses?

Is there a predator challenge here? How about another Predator Conquest challenge?
Count me in as well. After failing to submit 51 on time, and skipping 52 due to vacation (2nd deity GOTM in a row I've had to skip :mad: ), I'm out for revenge... :evil:

I'm out for revenge...

You'd better hurry up. The first spoiler should be out any week now.

Will start this evening. Decided for a 20k attempt, so this time i'll be at the window watching the carnage. After so much war, a bit of relax is needed. Good luck oh brave warmongerers! Do your worst! :evil:

sorry, wrong post:blush: