http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/7294/stoneeng4rw.th.jpg (http://img135.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stoneeng4rw.jpg)
You are Elizabeth (Philsophical/Financial). You start adjacent to stone. But you're also on a small island with no more than room for four cities. You can see land nearby. It's emperor difficulty, so you can't grow beyond size 2 without resources, forests, or being on a river. How do you proceed? Go for Stonehenge and the Pyramids, hampering your ability to get off your island and grow your cities for longer? Do you go for sailing and expansion immediately, thereby passing up the wonders?

I've played this game three different times, and none of them leave me satisfied. None of them give me a competitive start. How would you play it?

lol i dunno but your post made it clear that if im ever going to play on that level im going to have to get by without chopping down all my forest~

I'd start skipping the oracle, building first Pyramids while researching navigation, then Great lighthouse, and possibly the colossus.

Have you tried in this way?

Couple of possibilities:

OK, so Stonehenge and/or Pyramids don't really fit with your leader traits and don't help much in getting off your island - Stonehenge is cheap to build but doesn't really help your situation as far as I can see. The Pyramids would help in terms of happiness, and makes use of the only useful resource you have at your capital.

You're on an island, so if you can get some more cities up and running you shouldn't have much, if any, barb issues - so you can concentrate on research/development towards getting off the island rather than defence/Archery/Iron Working for example.

Although there's land nearby, you'll suffer from happiness well before you're ready to expand there.

Finally, you've got quite a lot of forests at your start, so I wouldn't worry about chopping a few of them to speed up the early expansion and/or an early wonder. You can also chop outside your borders as well (though you yield less hammers).

So in summary: I'd go for quick expansion to avoid the barb issue, then a wonder (not my usual choice on Emperor!), then sailing/expansion. But it looks tough whichever way you go. Have you tried this route?

Theres plenty of room for more than 4 cities!! No wonder you are having problems!!

Repeat after me:

"City overlap isnt bad. City overlap isnt bad!"

:agree: Dusty Monkey is correct. From your screenie, there's room for at least 6-7 cities, even without a lot of overlap.

But you're also on a small island with no more than room for four cities.

I completely disagree. Water itself is a resource that should be exploited as much as possible, especially on a small island like this. Therefore i would put not 4, but 8 cities on this island. See the picture in the attachment for where i would place them.

I've played this game three different times, and none of them leave me satisfied. None of them give me a competitive start. How would you play it?

I think your main problem in this game is lack of resources, forests and rivers.

I concur w/ the above. Pack in the cities as Zombie shows. Then go for the Colossus as your chop-wonder. With a financial leader in particular, this will be huge - every sea tile is 2F/3C or 2F/4C.

I'd probably also shoot for several of the stone-based wonders, other than the Pyramids. Stonehenge will pop early borders and get you a great prophet early, which may be able to get you Christianity or Civil Service. The Great Lighthouse will be sweet with 8 coastal cities - +16C right there. You'll certainly want the Hanging Gardens for health.

I agree with the above--you can build a lot more cities than you think, especially once you build lighthouses and harbours, maybe even the Great Lighthouse and/or the Colossus if you feel so inclined.

Zombie's map is very similar to how I would settle my cities.
Lovely grassland to the north, cows and fish to the east, enough room for 6-8 high commerce coastal cities.

Lack of hammers is your biggest problem early on, so concentrate on your strengths which is the sea.
A Lighthouse in every city and most importantly get the Colossus, that would be huge for your island, and your financial trait.

Next problem is lack of contact with the AI, so I would be looking to get to Optics once my early economy is up and running.

I disagree with those who say you should avoid the pyramids. You have 3 of the 4 things that make pyramids worth getting :
- stone (the most important)
- lots of forests near your capital (so you're sure to get them first)
- philosophical civ (so your specialists not only produce +3 beakers, but also +1.5 GPP)
- industrious (this is the only one you don't have)

I would aim to get pyramids, the colossus, the great lighthouse and every wonder that requires stone. I wouldn't use forest chops for anything but wonders. Use slavery to build your other stuff. Use the great engineer from the pyramids to get the great library.

With a financial civ all by yourself with lots of water tiles to work with, plus being assured of getting the pyramids (because of stone and forests) and the great library (because of the engineer), you can get a nice early tech lead.

There just arent enough big food tiles for a specialist-based economy on that island so the pyramids lose much of their value. Yes I am counting that lake as +3 food.

Its still not there. No city can get more than 2 of the big bonuses, meaning you cant even try a giant specialist city with cottaging going on elsewhere.

I wouldn't run a specialist-based economy for a financial civ, that wouldn't be playing fully to your strength. However, the pyramid is good in that you can run representation and get +3 happiness in 5 of your largest cities. After that, I would go on and cottages all the greens (grassland), farm the browns and grays (plains+irrigable tundra), and put up mostly windmills for hills (after replaceable parts, of course). With the exception of the most food-rich city for GP farming. Eventually, you will be the leader in GNP, and be able to purchase your improvements, wonders, and armies outright with universal suffrage and the Kremlin wonder.

One thing not being emphasized enough -- that is one terrible start.

Repeat after me:

"City overlap isnt bad. City overlap isnt bad!"
:lol:


hmm but you are right.. just as i started to think that civ4 encouraged players to build as few cities as possible.

City overlap is bad. On later stage it is size 17-20 commercial cottage cities that carry you forward. But fishing villagess rarelly effective pass size 10, so for them it is ok.

Good thread considering the different answers you're getting.

My vote would be to hook up the stone immediately, chop Stonehenge (if there's still time) & chop the Pyramids. The reason isn't to get run a specialist economy as much as it is to get the +3 happiness in the 5 largest cities. This is EMPEROR and you have 1 happiness on the island and it's not immediately available. If I got Stonehenge & the Pyramids I'd build 2 cities on this continent spread out (so they'd actually be useful and not all commerce/no production cities) and would next look to get off ASAP to another island.

I'm going to give this a try (hopefully tonight). It's hard to argue with the many cities/cottage camp since you're financial and could build a lot of cities on the island and still be able to keep science up, but the lack of production looks like it could be a painful game if you have 8 cottage/fishing cities with no production and can't expand to a better island. I'm also a habitual stonehenge builder and if I get a prophet instead of an engineer I'll try to found a religion with it.

Emperor = find health & happiness. With Representation, cows, sheep, fish you can at least grow a little bit and look for a new island with corn/wheat/clams (especially given future harbor building) & ivory/gold/gems/dyes.

...Pyramids. Stonehenge...The Great Lighthouse...Hanging Gardens

This is Emperor and a hammer poor island. I don't know how you'd get all of those.

Well, I played this game (at least as far as I was going to make it) with mixed results. I built Stonehenge/Pyramids & thanks to Representation (and the added happiness) was able to grow 3 good cities on the main island with lots of space. No copper on the island but I went and got some -- too bad because iron popped on the island where I should have built a city.

I'm in 2nd to last in score and the demographics don't look good. Realistically though I think I could likely take Louis out. I played until a turn before Redcoats. Was planning to switch to Nationalism and crank out some troops for a war. Unfortunately just as I got the tech Catherine decided to drop some Infantry on my home island :eek: :eek: :eek:

I decided that was enough punishment and gave up.

Stonehenge/Pyramids was definately the way to go, but although I liked my 3rd/4th cities off the main island I think I would have been better off packing them in and putting a cottage on every square of the island. I still would have gotten a bit of the other small islands. There just was never going to be enough production to win this though IMO and on Emperor I think it's unlikely that even fully cottaged you'd get any substantial tech lead. Probably winnable with a good macemen war, redcoat war, & modern war. I'm not very good at mid-late game so I'm giving up. The game had its moments but I"m a long way from being able to win an emperor game with lots of Islands, Isabella, & Catherine (yikes!).

Try for a cultural victory. Chop pyramids and maybe Stonehenge or Oracle (for the prophets and a religion or two). With a couple religions--either founded by you or spread from others--and six cities, you can get four cathedrals. Three religions would be better, that's six cathedrals.

Attached is a suggested six-city island setup. As marked, I'd expect our three best culture cities will probably be 1, 3 and either 2 or your capital. I'd probably try to get the capital as one of the three and use 2 as a GP farm. You'll probably need to poprush for infrastructure.

With only six closely spaced cities, your maintenance will be low. I'd probably try to get two prophets, then the rest great artists. City 2 will only have about 9 extra food (I think), so you can run 4 to 5 artist specialists under caste system. Despite being hurried by marble which you don't have, oracle will give you a good shot at Confucianism. Then, a single prophet might give you Christianity.

Still, cultural victories tend to force you to rely on the kindness of others...!

Edit: I can't see the other land that's said to be visible, so my city placement might need to be modified. Basically, I'd try to get as many cottages as possible for each of three cultural cities. That way when they become towns and you throw the switch to 100% culture after liberalism, you'll get max culture from them.

...Pyramids. Stonehenge...The Great Lighthouse...Hanging Gardens

This is Emperor and a hammer poor island. I don't know how you'd get all of those.

Stonehenge and the Pyramids are cheap enough with stone, and the forest around the capital, at 60 shields per chop (normal speed), will provide enough to get you there. The Great Engineer gets you the Great Lighthouse for free. The Hanging Gardens are also rather cheap with stone and you should be able to get them before anybody else. Make them in a city other than your capital, one where you still have some forests to chop.

It's impossible to get the Great Lighthouse, after getting Stonehenge and the Pyramids. Even by building the Pyramids first, so your first Great Person is an engineer, and even with the Philosophical bonus, you won't get him soon enough. And even with chopping all the forests around London, there aren't enough shields to build it traditionally.

It's also worth noting the save is on Epic speed, which is why this thread even exists. Your early game tech choices are much more crucial when they come tens of turns apart.

There are arleady many posts that talk about using the Pyramids' Great Engineer to build the Great Library. Also, i've personally done it myself. I don't know what makes you think that it can't be done. Especially in a case like this where the Philosophical bonus helps in this regard.

It's impossible to get the Great Lighthouse, after getting Stonehenge and the Pyramids.
^^^^^^^^^^

Interesting mix of answers.

Personally, I would totally skip Stonehenge. What does it give you? Early border expansion? Yeah, so what? About all that will do is get you those fishes a tad earlier. A couple of prophets? Yeah, so what? I'd rather have Scientists or Engineers with that start.

Pyramids, Great Lighthouse, Hanging Gardens, Colossus, in that order.

Also, you have your fair share of health resources. That alone will be a big help.

Wodan

Interesting mix of answers.

Personally, I would totally skip Stonehenge. What does it give you? Early border expansion? Yeah, so what? About all that will do is get you those fishes a tad earlier. A couple of prophets? Yeah, so what? I'd rather have Scientists or Engineers with that start.

Pyramids, Great Lighthouse, Hanging Gardens, Colossus, in that order.

Also, you have your fair share of health resources. That alone will be a big help.

Wodan

IMO Stonehenge is HUGE on a known island map if you aren't going to get an early religion. It gets you to fishes on island towns a LOT earlier than having to build obelisks or wait to chop/rush libraries and can be the difference in fast expansion to other islands with galleys. It's also super cheap GPP and I like using the prophet to get a mid religion. In the game I played I waited to hook up the stone before I chopped, too, so each chop was a lot of production for the Pyramids and Stonehenge.

I'm addicted to Stonehenge, but I always forget to try to build the Oracle so SH also a bit of a crutch for me to use the Great Person to catch up in high level games.

The 'henge is so cheap that you can get it with one chop when stone is hooked up. Why wouldn't you do it? The free border expansion is CRITICAL in the early game, allowing you much greater flexability when placing the rest of your cities.

Build the Gardens in same city as Pyramids. Both give Engineer Gp points. Maybe even use your first Gp-Engineer for the National Epic in that same city?
Base Gp points: 4 (pure engineer points)
Philisophical bonus: 8 points
Nat'l Epic bonus: 16 points

Add a Forge and an Engineer specialist, and you're pumping the Great Engineers like crazy.

Actually, the Nat'l Epic adds another 2-points (Great Artist I think).
So you'd be getting 20 points per turn with a very small percentage of getting a Great Artist instead of the Engineer. Add in a specialist engineer from forge and you're getting 26 points per turn. Huge.

Build the Gardens in same city as Pyramids. Both give Engineer Gp points. Maybe even use your first Gp-Engineer for the National Epic in that same city?
Base Gp points: 4 (pure engineer points)
Philisophical bonus: 8 points
Nat'l Epic bonus: 16 points


Are you calculating this correctly? Multipliers to great person points (GPPs) only work on the base amount, so with pyramids, hanging gardens and national epic (and no specialists), you'd have:

Base: 5 GPPs (2 Pyramids + 2 Hanging Gardens + 1 National Epic)
+100% for philosophical: +5 GPPs
+100% for National Epic: +5 GPPs

Total: 15GPPs/turn

And, your percentage chances are based on number of sources, not number of points, so you'd have 67% chance of great engineer and 33% change of great artist. Adding a forge and an engineer specialist would get you another 9GPPs with those bonuses and up your great engineer chances to 75%.

^^^^^^^^^^

You can say it's impossible all day long if you want, but i've done it more than once, so surely it can't be impossible.

I've done it as well. But never on Emperor and never with so few hammer resources.

@Wodan: Stonehedge, apart from what was said already, is one of the best investments you can do if you plan (like me) to conquer a holy city. This Great Prophet is the easiest money ever: just one chop away to take.

I've done it as well. But never on Emperor and never with so few hammer resources.

In this save, I built pyramids, great lighthouse, colossus, and great library all in the capital, and saved 2 trees in the capital radius. I also built hanging gardens in the city to the east with 3 hills, horses, fish, and cows.

Stonehenge and the Pyramids are cheap enough with stone, and the forest around the capital, at 60 shields per chop (normal speed), will provide enough to get you there. The Great Engineer gets you the Great Lighthouse for free. The Hanging Gardens are also rather cheap with stone and you should be able to get them before anybody else. Make them in a city other than your capital, one where you still have some forests to chop.

It's impossible to get the Great Lighthouse, after getting Stonehenge and the Pyramids. Even by building the Pyramids first, so your first Great Person is an engineer, and even with the Philosophical bonus, you won't get him soon enough. And even with chopping all the forests around London, there aren't enough shields to build it traditionally.
There are arleady many posts that talk about using the Pyramids' Great Engineer to build the Great Library. Also, i've personally done it myself. I don't know what makes you think that it can't be done. Especially in a case like this where the Philosophical bonus helps in this regard.
Great Lighthouse =/ Great Library

Oops, i meant the Great Library. My bad.

How about if you built the Pyramids and Stonehenge in the same city (Stonehenge first because you can get it earlier and start collecting GPP earlier), and you're lucky enough to get a Great Engineer despite the low odds? Having two GPP generators, plus the philosophical bonus, should be able to get the Great Engineer soon enough, right? Not saying that's likely (chances are you'd get a Great Prophet), but i think it's possible.

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/8243/stoneeng33lv.th.jpg (http://img111.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stoneeng33lv.jpg)

After ruling out getting Stonehenge along with the Pyramids and Great Lighthouse, I was able to get the latter two, then focus on expanding as I teched my way to Animal Husbandry (for health, to expand beyond size 1), and then Literature.

I made the mistake of trading away Metal Casting (which I got with the first Great Merchant popping from the Great Lighthouse) to try and get missing techs and make friends with my new neighbors, whose scores could clearly crush mine. As a result, Louis got the Colossus, somehow 19 turns before I did, even though I had a good head start on a forge and a nice production city working on it.

Catherine went to war with me for a while, which amounted to parking three galleys in my territory and sitting there. I somehow managed to defeat two in one turn when they attacked my unpromoted single-galley-navy. That was fun, since without that break I'd probably have quit.

I missed out on the hot sugar island south of my mainland. Settling the copper for the ColoSsus had a higher priority for me.

Louis declared war on me for no reason too. I sank two of his galleys with my magical navy of luck, and he razed one of my cities. I had to sick 4 archers (my hot new military tech) on his two horse archers to stop their rampage.

I made another mistake later on by forgetting to switch to Beaurocracy and Pacificm once I traded techs to get them. The pacificm is a major blunder, since I'd have another great person by now.

Right now it's just a holding pattern. I'm building universities so I can construct the Oxford University in York, but that's about the extent of my plans at the moment. I don't see any successful endgame strategy emerging. The only one I'd be interested in militarily breaking off a piece of is Mansu, but I really only have 2.5 cities that can produce units, and I'm currently behind him in tech.

Pretty much my only strength is that I got crabs.

Thoughts?