View Full Version : Winning the Space Race Peacefully – The Endgame


Orion071
Mar 17, 2006, 04:17 PM
**New Edit** Since Beyond the Sword has a vastly different modern age and tech path, it has its own post. Read about the BtS path here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5912387#post5912387).

**Edited for Warlords 2.08**

Don’t you hate it when you’re racing an AI into space and he launches his ship just a few turns before you can? I know I do. So I devised a strategy to research my way through the Modern Age and get my spaceship in the air as quickly as possible. I’ve used this strategy successfully many times on Monarch, and recently have been succeeding with it on Emperor, including GotM 4.

First, a few assumptions. You have to have a civ actually capable of winning the space race. All of the tips and tricks in the world aren’t going to help you if Monty has knocked you down to 2 cities or Mansa Musa is already 6 techs ahead of you. This is for the civ who has just finished Rocketry and may be a tech or two behind and wants to catch up peacefully. You should probably have at least 8 cities, with one major production center (usually the one with Ironworks), 1-2 secondary production centers, and the rest can be anything. That’s not a problem if you play on Large or Huge maps like I do, but it’s still easily doable on Standard maps. You also have to have Aluminum and Copper to finish certain parts quickly, but that shouldn’t be a problem either.

My first advice is DON'T PANIC when you see that someone has completed the Apollo Program and is starting their spaceship. You have plenty of time to catch up. One thing I love about Civ IV is that you have to go through almost the entire tech tree before you can launch a ship. There are 8 to 10 techs after Rocketry that need to be researched, so that’s at least 50-100 turns depending on your game speed.

Here’s my research order through the Modern Age, along with the appropriate spaceship parts:

0) Rocketry – When this is complete, you can build the Apollo Program and the SS Casings. Your best production site should build the Apollo Program as quickly as possible. Once it’s done, don’t tie up your good cities with the 5 Casings. Build them in any old city, even if they take 25 turns to complete. Who cares? You still have plenty of time.

1) Computers – This should be your first tech after Rocketry. You need Radio before you can get it, but I usually research Radio before Rocketry because it’s much cheaper. This unlocks the Laboratory, which will help you speed through the other techs. Build labs in all of your science cities. The AI’s tend to research this later than you, so you can get a jump on researching right away.

edit: In the 1.61 patch, the Laboratory also gives you a 50% to building spaceship parts. So this is a vital building that should go in every city, not just the science ones anymore.

2) Plastics – This doesn’t enable any parts, but it’s necessary for you to get to Robotics. It enables the Three Gorges Dam, which is a nice wonder, but one that I rarely get. The AI seems to prioritize Plastics way ahead of me, so I'm not able to beat them to this wonder. You really only need 2 or 3 good production centers anyway so I just end up building Coal or Nuclear Plants in those cities.

3) Satellites – This one is relatively cheap to research, and the AI’s love to get it early, so you’ll get some bonuses and it shouldn’t take you long to get. This unlocks the Thrusters. You need 3 of them, but like the Casings, they should be relegated to minor cities to build. Don’t tie up one of your top 3 cities to build these. Edit: Originally, I had this much later in the list, but in Warlords Satellites are required to build the Space Elevator. Therefore, I had to move this tech ahead of Robotics.

4) Robotics – This tech will unlock the SS Docking Bay and the Space Elevator. Although the Docking Bay costs the most hammers to build, it’s actually easier than the Stasis Chamber or the Engine because of the bonus you get with Aluminum. Start the Space Elevator in your best city that can actually build it (has to be near the equator) and the Docking Bay in one of your secondary production centers. If you can rush build the Elevator with Universal Suffrage or a Great Engineer, then even better.

5) Fiber Optics – This unlocks the Cockpit and the Internet. The Internet is unnecessary at this point, because it’s too hard to build and we don't have many techs left anyway. The Cockpit is easy to build, so just put it in any old city. Don't tie up a good production city with this.

6) Fusion – You get a Great Engineer for getting this first, but does it matter? You can’t rush any of the spaceship parts and you should already have the Space Elevator by now. If not, then use him to finish it up. The important thing about Fusion is that it unlocks the Engine. The Engine is the hardest piece to build and your best city needs to be all over this as soon as Fusion is discovered. Often, the AI’s leave this piece until last, and this can definitely be to your benefit (as I’ll explain later).

7) Genetics – This requires Refrigeration, so you have to research that first if you don’t already have it. It also unlocks the Stasis Chamber, which is the second hardest piece to build. If your best city is building the Engine, then your second best city needs to be on this one. Hopefully the Engine and the Stasis Chamber will be done at approximately the same time.

IIRC, Vanilla 1.61 has the Engine and the Stasis Chamber as the same cost in hammers. In that case, you'd want your second best city to start the Engine, and you best city to start the Stasis Chamber after you research Genetics. Then you should finish both parts at about the same time.

8) Ecology – This is the last tech that you’ll need to finish your ship. It also has the easiest part besides the Casings, the Life Support. Since your best cities are working on the Engine and the Stasis Chamber, your next best city needs to be ready for Life Support. Often, I’ve started the Engine as soon as I’ve discovered Fusion, yet I still research the rest and finish the Life Support piece before the other pieces are done. Either way, you’ve achieved a Space Victory! Enjoy the spoils!

Even after all of this, you still find yourself behind in the race, there is a way to win. You simply need to take a Spy to your rival civ, find where he’s building the Engine, and sabotage it. As long as you can stop the Engine, you’re home free. Just stopping the Engine once can often buy you 7-10 extra turns. That should be enough to tip the scales in you favor. If not, rinse and repeat!

I hope you enjoyed my first strategy article!

tombeef
Mar 17, 2006, 05:58 PM
straightforward and simple, will definately try this path out, it's really the first good one I've seen.

juballs2001
Mar 17, 2006, 06:06 PM
key is to sabotage the engine! excellent!

i did this in civ 3 sometimes, with smaller success because often the AI would build the engine or the casing in the capital meaning production would happen in 3-4 turns.
10 turns is a lot in civ 4, great strategy thank you!

jimbob27
Mar 18, 2006, 12:02 PM
Hmm.. well my tactic doesn't really count as peaceful, and it's backfired a couple of times.

The moment I realise there's a chance of another civ beating me.... I nuke all their production cities. It wipes out a load of their population and the fallout makes the city less productive as well. Their spaceship usually gets crippled by a single SS casing that now needs 200 turns to complete.

Its backfired though..... I did it to a neighbour which then went and razed about 5 of my cities. I did it to somebody else once, without scouting all their cities, and ended up getting nuked about 20 times the next turn.

Mutineer
Mar 19, 2006, 06:02 PM
Well, I never have anyone to have Nukes in my game.
I simply build UN and first resolution I pass is nonproliteration treaty.

Smokey McDope
Mar 19, 2006, 09:45 PM
Simply building any wonder first, isn't so simple on monarch+

solvero
Mar 20, 2006, 07:44 AM
Good strategy, but I believe that going for rocketry before finishing all industrial era's techs is better. After that I go for computers like you do, and then when I have labs and am faster on research I go back to finish the industrialism path, sometimes before I finish my apollo program. Than I usually went for satelites like the AI, but from then on I think your strategy is better.

jpowers
Mar 20, 2006, 08:50 AM
On Prince, I've been researching the minimum path to robotics, then turning off research for as long as I need to buy the Space Elevator, then turning research back on. I usually lose 4-5 turns of research but gain 8-10 turns of parts production.

Orion071
Mar 20, 2006, 09:58 AM
Good strategy, but I believe that going for rocketry before finishing all industrial era's techs is better. After that I go for computers like you do, and then when I have labs and am faster on research I go back to finish the industrialism path, sometimes before I finish my apollo program. Than I usually went for satelites like the AI, but from then on I think your strategy is better.

Going straight for Rocketry and Computers before finishing up the Industrialism route can be effective for research, but I usually like the security of having Tanks in case I'm attacked. I don't like Satellites that early because I'm making an effort to get to Robotics first to beat the AI's to the Space Elevator.

On Prince, I've been researching the minimum path to robotics, then turning off research for as long as I need to buy the Space Elevator, then turning research back on. I usually lose 4-5 turns of research but gain 8-10 turns of parts production.

Unless you think an AI is going to beat you to building the Elevator, I don't think you gain a whole lot by stopping your research in order to buy it. The Elevator comes in handy by helping you build the Engine faster. That's the limiting factor to the Space Race. I'm already heading straight to Robotics in an effort to build the Elevator. I still have a bunch of techs to research before I'm done, so there's plenty of time to get the Elevator built. The other parts don't matter as long as they'll be done before the Engine. If your best city is still building the Elevator when you're about to finish Fusion, then you can stop for a turn or two and rush the build. But until then, I wouldn't do it. Who cares if your Casings or Thrusters get built faster by the Elevator? They'll still be sitting around until the Engine is done. Don't get fixated on getting each piece done as soon as possible, just worry about getting the whole ship done first. I've had times where an AI has finished 8 pieces to my zero, but I've still won by popping all 13 parts at roughly the same time. That's all that matters.

RemoWilliams
Apr 24, 2006, 04:07 PM
Going straight for Rocketry and Computers before finishing up the Industrialism route can be effective for research, but I usually like the security of having Tanks in case I'm attacked. I don't like Satellites that early because I'm making an effort to get to Robotics first to beat the AI's to the Space Elevator.

Not to mention the fact that industrialism reveals aluminum! I'd seriously consider trashing the game if I didn't have aluminum before building Apollo, but in the end I'd probably just try to get along without it. I usually try to have a really large land mass by then though, so I can't remember this being a problem in the past.

Sisiutil
Apr 25, 2006, 04:24 PM
You neglected to mention that Plastics enables the Three Gorges Dam Wonder, which will boost production in all of your cities. I find I get Plastics well ahead of Robotics, so if I can build the Dam, it provides a more long-term boost to spaceship part production than the Elevator. Usually by the time I build the Elevator, most of the parts are complete.

The other advantage of the Dam is that I can now produce military units faster in all of my cities. This boosts my power rating and makes the AI more reluctant to attack me. You don't want to fight a war while you're in a tight space race.

Orion071
Apr 26, 2006, 10:01 AM
You neglected to mention that Plastics enables the Three Gorges Dam Wonder, which will boost production in all of your cities. I find I get Plastics well ahead of Robotics, so if I can build the Dam, it provides a more long-term boost to spaceship part production than the Elevator. Usually by the time I build the Elevator, most of the parts are complete.

The other advantage of the Dam is that I can now produce military units faster in all of my cities. This boosts my power rating and makes the AI more reluctant to attack me. You don't want to fight a war while you're in a tight space race.

I tend to not bother with the Three Gorges Dam. My specialized production cities already have a coal plant in them and if I'm in a really tight space race then I don't have time to waste on the Dam. Plastics is a very expensive tech to research, so I almost always use the research bonuses after Computers in order to get it.

Ballisto
May 14, 2006, 01:26 PM
You didn't say much about using spies to pillage aluminum.

Orion071
May 15, 2006, 07:02 AM
You didn't say much about using spies to pillage aluminum.

I tend to play large or huge maps where each civ tends to have multiple sources of aluminum anyway. I don't think that pillaging resources is as effective as pillaging the production of the key spaceship components like the engine. Only a few of the pieces even get a production bonus from aluminum.

One thing that I did notice is that in the 1.61 patch, a Laboratory gives you a 50% bonus to producing spaceship parts! This is a huge bonus and I think it really makes the Space Elevator much less important. I'll still build it, but I won't be too disappointed if I don't get it.

Lexad
Sep 10, 2006, 01:08 AM
An argument in favour getting Fusion first - you can use the Engineer for Golden Age (if you have more GPeople), speeding up your space ekements production and research of remainins space race techs.

Orion071
Feb 05, 2007, 10:44 AM
After being away from Civ for many months, I started up again after getting Warlords for Christmas. I just finished a Monarch game where I won the Space Race over Augustus Caesar even though he had a big advantage in land, score and power and a small advantage in tech. I used my above system to finish the last part 4 turns before he would have. I did notice something that caused me to change my tech path - apparently now the Space Elevator requires you to have Satellites. I couldn't find out when that change was made.

lilnev
Feb 05, 2007, 01:46 PM
I generally use the same order except that I postpone Genetics until after Fusion. The engine takes so long, I want to start it as soon as is reasonably possible.

I've also started to wonder whether the Space Elevator is really that important. All my cities have a 2.5 multiplier anyway (forge+factory+coal plant+observatory), with 3.5 in the Ironworks city. I feel like the space race is really research-limited rather than production-limited, as I'll launch within about 5 turns of finishing Ecology. Not having the Space Elevator should only add a couple of turns to that.

I think it's also worth extending your order backwards in time to some of the key targets: Democracy (emancipation for a cottage economy), then Astronomy (observatories, plus oversees trade routes; can often trade for this), then Assembly Line (factories + coal plants; forget 3 Gorges, it comes way too late), then Railroads (production boost from mines), then I think Industrialism (aluminum), though it might be possible to go straight to Rocketry. The order can obviously depend on trade possibilities and defence needs, as well.

peace,
lilnev

Orion071
Feb 06, 2007, 06:43 AM
I generally use the same order except that I postpone Genetics until after Fusion. The engine takes so long, I want to start it as soon as is reasonably possible.

I've also started to wonder whether the Space Elevator is really that important. All my cities have a 2.5 multiplier anyway (forge+factory+coal plant+observatory), with 3.5 in the Ironworks city. I feel like the space race is really research-limited rather than production-limited, as I'll launch within about 5 turns of finishing Ecology. Not having the Space Elevator should only add a couple of turns to that.


The problem with postponing Genetics is the fact that the Stasis Chamber is just as hard to build as the Engine. That's why I had it earlier so you have time to finish it in a lesser production city. In the last game I played, I started the Engine in the best city I had as soon as I discovered Fusion. I researched Ecology and finished the Life Support in my second-best city on the same turn as the Engine.

I agree with you about the Space Elevator now. Pre-1.61 patch (when this was originally written), the Elevator made a bigger difference when you didn't have the Laboratory bonus, but now it's just not that important. I'll still try to get it, but I won't cry if I don't.

cabert
Feb 06, 2007, 06:59 AM
a few tricks to shave off some turns of production :
- $ rushing anything worth more than the hammers produced in one turn on the turn before starting a part will give you double hammers in the first turn invested on the part. It's not much but it means one less turn!
- with all the productivity buildings (lab, factory, power, ...), a chopped forest is worth a lot (100+ hammers). If you have still forests around when deciding to go for space, keep them for the final rush : you cannot poprush or $rush parts, but you can chop for them! I decide on which city builds what not only using the current hammers/turn but also with the number of forests available! You workers may be jobless anyway :lol:
- starvation : you don't need the population after you have won, so starving your cities in order to work the most hammer heavy tiles is often a good move.
- golden age : this is well known, but it is so efficient that you really shouldn't forget it :lol:
- if you have a great person after launching this golden age, think about where to settle him. Most great people have hammers or food! 1 more base hammer (Great scientist) can be enough to finish 1 turn earlier.
- if you are spiritual, bureaucracy for the final rush is superior to free speech. If you aren't, anarchy is the worst possible move :lol:

lilnev
Feb 06, 2007, 10:02 AM
Good points, cabert. I'd expand on starvation by saying that I often plan on it for my last 1 or 2 cities. Turn population growth off, max out the food bar, and have hordes of workers on hand. As soon as it's time to start that last part, replace all those windmills with mines (pre-railroaded of course), cottages and farms with workshops and watermills, etc.

Here's a question: do you folks bother with State Property? I generally feel that it's not worth the anarchy to get into (unless Spiritual), though my opinions aren't firm on the subject. (Communism is generally easy to trade for if it's wanted. I wouldn't spend turns researching it).

peace,
lilnev

cabert
Feb 06, 2007, 01:09 PM
Good points, cabert. I'd expand on starvation by saying that I often plan on it for my last 1 or 2 cities. Turn population growth off, max out the food bar, and have hordes of workers on hand. As soon as it's time to start that last part, replace all those windmills with mines (pre-railroaded of course), cottages and farms with workshops and watermills, etc.

Here's a question: do you folks bother with State Property? I generally feel that it's not worth the anarchy to get into (unless Spiritual), though my opinions aren't firm on the subject. (Communism is generally easy to trade for if it's wanted. I wouldn't spend turns researching it).

peace,
lilnev

if you have a large empire, then it's worth it.
I even research it and build the kremlin to $rush labs and factories cheaper.

Orion071
Mar 13, 2007, 02:24 PM
Updated for Walords 2.08! They changed the cost of some of the pieces, but the path is pretty much the same. I moved Fusion higher on the list to grab the Engineer to help finish the Space Elevator (with I believe costs more in Warlords and requires Satellites to build).

vra379971
Mar 15, 2007, 11:56 AM
I recently played a game on Monarch, Space Race, and was I think...4 techs behind about four civs coming into the last section. It had been a brusing game, alot of delclarations of war which we (America) ended up winning, but...that didn't help the economy any.

So, how did I catch up?

I raced to Rocketry, started Apollo, finished Satellites and Apollo, went over to Computers for Labs while fighting off attacks by Shaka, Montezuma and Isabella, then headed over to Fiber Optics. As soon as I got Fiber Optics, I set research to 0 and built the Internet. At about 1k a round, I picked up 30k gold while I was waiting for the internet to build. What did I do with this cash? Alot went to building labs in mid-production cities, and the rest went to building bombers.

Anyway, 30 turns later (Epic Speed) I had my Net, and every tech left.

With my cash horde (and a saved GE) I rushed the SE, and was well in command of the Space Race.

I'll never ever researh techs in the future age again as you get get it for free and not waste cash. The money is a much better and more effective tool! Long live the Internet!

InvisibleStalke
Mar 15, 2007, 08:38 PM
If I am trying to get the Space Race win in a tight race (or just going for an earlier win) I will prioritize computers before rocketry - I've had games where I had computers before assembly line. Research is your main bottleneck - until you have researched all the parts you don't really have a production bottleneck and still have plenty of time to build all your factories and coal plants. Getting a lab into my science cities is a priority.

This relies of course on having good defenses - but by then I probably have a HE city producing an artillery every turn and machine guns defending cities. Tanks and Infantry can wait a while (unless I have a very aggressive neighbour).

Orion071
Sep 04, 2007, 09:07 PM
Since Beyond the Sword has an expanded Modern Age and switched around all of the techs for the various spaceship parts, it makes sense to completely re-visit the entire thing in a new post. So here is my tech path for BtS 3.0.3.- (all spaceship component costs are listed for Epic speed)

0) Rocketry - This of course unlocks the Apollo Program. Really, any city can build this now. The entire path takes so long to research that it doesn't really matter how quickly you build this. Heck, you can't build any spaceship parts yet anyway.

1) Plastics (needs Industrialism) - Plastics gets the bump because it's required for Computers now. This comes early enough now that it might be worth it to build the Three Gorges Dam. Normally I avoid this because my major production centers already have Coal Plants, but we still haven't unlocked any spaceship parts yet. If you're dying to build something, then have fun.

2) Computers (needs Radio) - The Internet gets moved to this much earlier tech. It's still too expensive for a minimal gain, but like I said before, we haven't unlocked anything yet. I don't know the AI's preferred modern tech path yet (my only BtS space win was a runaway), but this might gain us a tech or 2 if they go a different path. I still say it's not worth it.

3) Superconductors (needs Refrigeration) - This tech is important because it unlocks the Labortaory. Every city needs this improvement because of its 25% research bonus as well as its 50% bonus to spaceship part completion. We also unlock our first piece, the Thrusters (1800:hammers:, 2x speed with Aluminum). We need 5 Thrusters, but build these parts in lesser production centers. Even if they take 30 turns to build, we still have plenty of time. Get those Labs done first, though!

4) Satellites - Here we unlock the Docking Bay (3000:hammers:, 2x speed with Aluminum) on our way to Robotics. The Docking Bay is actually the most expensive piece to build, but the Aluminum bonus makes it a little easier than the Engines. Again, we still have 6-8 more techs left, so this doesn't have to be done by one of your best cities. Keep building the Dam and the Internet and let a lesser city build this piece.

5) Robotics - Here is the Space Elevator. Personally, if you're in a tight space race, this tech can be skipped altogether. It's a dead end and the Space Elevator is vastly overrated. An extra 50% is not worth the hammers. It does let you build Mech Infantry, so if you're worried about defense you need this tech.

6) Composites - This unlocks the Casings (1800:hammers:, 2x speed with Aluminum) as well as everyone's favorite Modern Armor. Like the Thrusters, these should be built in minor production cities. You have the option of building 1-5 Casings, but anything less than 5 gives you a chance to fail the launch. It's completely ridiculous to not build 5 Casings. Even if they take 30 turns in your minor cities, you still have lots of time.

7) Laser - A new tech that doesn't unlock anything but is on the path to Fusion.

8) Fiber Optics - Here's the Cockpit (1500:hammers:, 2x speed with Copper). It's a pretty easy build, so again let a lesser city build it. Your top 3 production centers are needed for the last few pieces.

9) Fusion (needs Fission) - You get a Great Engineer for this, so use him to finish up the Three Gorges Dam or the Space Elevator. He can't help you with the spaceship parts. This unlocks the Engine (2400:hammers:), the hardest piece to build. You only have to build 1 Engine, but you have the option of building 2. Building 2 Engines depends on how good your production centers are. You need your 2 best production centers to work on the Engines. In my test game, the 2nd Engine knocked the arrival time from 19 turns to 16 turns (Epic speed, remember). It's highly unlikely that you can build the 2 Engines and the Stasis Chamber (with the next tech) quickly enough to make the 2nd one worthwhile.

10) Genetics (needs Medicine) - Here's the next to last tech and the next to last piece, the Stasis Chamber (1800:hammers:). Plan this build so it finishes roughly the same time as the Engine. If your 2nd best production center is much worse than your best city, it might be better to have it build the Engine instead. You still have 1 piece left, so have a city ready for...

11) Ecology - Here's the Life Support (1500:hammers:, 2x speed with Copper), a fairly easy piece to build. If you time it right, the Engine, Stasis Chamber and Life Support should all finish around the same time. If you can do that and still squeeze in a 2nd Engine, then more power to you. Now all you have to do is survive until the ship reaches Alpha Centauri!

Other people have listed ways to speed up production if you have a piece lagging behind the rest. After Ecology, Towns are useless, so you can plow them under for Workshops. Although you can't rush buy or slave pop for spaceship parts, you can still chop forests for them (wooden Engines?? :confused:). Also, the new espionage system allows more ways to stop other civs than ever before. Just remember, for stopping other civs, you only have to stop 1 essential piece to stop the whole thing. Usually that's the Engine, but it can also be the Stasis Chamber.

mabraham
Jul 29, 2008, 05:32 AM
In BTS, the corporation of Mining, Inc would seem to be a no-brainer for anyone needing late-game hammers, i.e. just about everyone. Since a space race is partly hammer-limited and partly science-limited (which can be speeded up with more hammers for building Laboratories) then founding this corporation would have to help your cause, and prevent an AI from aiding their cause.

Further, you can spread it early on to some AI civs who you don't regard as threats in the space race, and your corporation city will earn more gold, which is hopefully multiplied by the usual buildings and Wall St. This means either more hammers rushing, or more science from being able to change the slider. Remember that the earlier you spread it, the better the pay-off, since there's a one-time capital outlay, and a per-turn benefit (unless they switch to a blocking Civic, or replace it with a different corporation). Sometimes an AI will spread it for you once you have seeded it to a couple of their cities, but it's probably leader-dependent.

Sid's Sushi is also beneficial, since that provides a tile-independent source of food for your production cities, allowing for fewer farms and windmills and more workshops and mines, or even avoiding the need for State Property. It's obviously also good for your commerce cities to run more specialists and cottages, and as above you can spam it to weak AIs for the same economic reasons as above.

For these reasons, I always plan to save up a Great Engineer and a Great Merchant for these corporations. The latter can be easily had from Economics, or from cities that founded suitable wonders (Great Lighthouse, Colossus, maybe Temple of Artemis), or with good ol' fashioned specialists. The former requires either a GE-suitable wonder (Pyramids, Hanging Gardens), or planning a long, long time in advance and running a dedicated Engineer. Your first chance to run more than one engineer anywhere comes with the Ironworks (+4 engineer specialists), which is normally only a tech or two before you get Railroad, which is not enough time to grow a GE, so early planning pays off with a quicker Mining, Inc. There is a point early in the game when you should be using such specialists for another purpose, since leaving a Great Person unused while waiting for these corporations has a significant opportunity cost. Also, remember to store these Great People somewhere safe... so not on the coastline, and not in a frontier city!

mabraham
Jul 31, 2008, 01:25 AM
It needs to be pointed out that State Property disables the effects of Corporations entirely, so there is a trade-off between running Free Market (or possibly Environmentalism) with corporations and State Property without them.

Free Market comes with a trade route per city (more valuable on continent and island maps, and if you've build harbours and/or customs houses) and access to a variable (and adjustable!) amount of extra :food: (Sid's Sushi), :hammers: (Mining Inc.) and :gold:. You could also run other corporations in non-production cities for their bonuses, but this pair of corporations clashes with each of the others, so their headquarters can't all be in your Wall St city, and the clashing corporations can't coexist in any city.

State Property comes with +1:food: per workshop and watermill, and +10% :hammers: per city, and no maintenance costs for distance from palace.

For a perfect production city (see this article (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/eval_production.php) "Vocum Sineratio: Evaluating Production") running the equivalent of 20 workshops & watermills, around 15-20:food: is gained by State Property, and at most about +6:hammers: from the 10%. On island or continents maps Sushi can effectively generate 5-10:food: in most cases, largely depending on how much coastal land you or your vassals have captured. Mining Inc can generate about the same number of :hammers:. So in ordinary scenarios, maximising the :hammers: output in these cities requires State Property.

However one only needs to maximise hammer output in these cities at the time one starts to build the necessary projects and wonders - and not before! Before, one needs to maximise the science rate while planning infrastructure for the transition, and in many cases the corporation benefit of :food:, :hammers:, :gold: and a trade route across the whole civilization, outweighs the benefit of +1:food: per workshop/watermill (with indirect access to more :hammers:), the 10% bonus to :hammers: everywhere, and no distance penalty to the palace.

So, given the availability of the required Great People, I think the perfect scenario is to found these corporations in your Wall St city with the usual Market/Grocer/Bank combination, and spread them everywhere while teching through to Superconductors for the Laboratories. Meantime you've planned which are the main production cities, and you've grown them to size 20 with Sushi and farms ready for the transition point. You can keep your post-railroad bored workers busy maximising the farm content to get them to size 20 in good time, and then pre-build all but one turn of your workshops and watermills over these farms. Once Mining Inc. has built enough Labs, switch to State Property and during the anarchy your workers can finish off the switch to production-based improvements. Now your production cities are already at size 20 and staying there because you planned how to supply 40:food:, and producing maximal :hammers:.

The catch is that you need to grow the right Great People. Getting them very early and saving them is a high opportunity cost - you could have rushed a useful wonder, or settled them for rest-of-the-game benefits. Best is to contrive a scenario where you have two cities committed to growing your GE and GM by building any wonders of those types there, and keeping their GPP pool fairly pure. You may need/want a third GP farm for some Great Scientists for Academies (for example), and to prevent your GE and GM popping too soon, but take note before each new great person pops how much the pop pushes back the pops of the GE and GM, and make sure the two critical ones won't be too late to be effective! The relative order doesn't matter too much, since there's quite a time between getting Chemistry and heading off for Medicine/Railroad, then coming back to do the other path, and you can pick the tech path at the time based on when the GE & GM will pop or have popped!

mabraham
Apr 02, 2009, 05:43 PM
Over time, I've come to disagree with myself...

For a perfect production city (see this article (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/eval_production.php) "Vocum Sineratio: Evaluating Production") running the equivalent of 20 workshops & watermills, around 15-20:food: is gained by State Property, and at most about +6:hammers: from the 10%. On island or continents maps Sushi can effectively generate 5-10:food: in most cases, largely depending on how much coastal land you or your vassals have captured. Mining Inc can generate about the same number of :hammers:. So in ordinary scenarios, maximising the :hammers: output in these cities requires State Property.

However one only needs to maximise hammer output in these cities at the time one starts to build the necessary projects and wonders - and not before! Before, one needs to maximise the science rate while planning infrastructure for the transition, and in many cases the corporation benefit of :food:, :hammers:, :gold: and a trade route across the whole civilization, outweighs the benefit of +1:food: per workshop/watermill (with indirect access to more :hammers:), the 10% bonus to :hammers: everywhere, and no distance penalty to the palace.

My analysis overlooked some important considerations. These are


You have to build a number of banks (6 on a Standard map) to get access to Wall St, and if your slider is staying at 100% then you may not be getting good value for these buildings, either outside your Wall St city or pre-corporation times. After all, the time spent building these things could be time spent building observatories or riflemen.

You also have to spread your corporation to (at least) your spaceship production cities, which costs some gold. Wider spread (to your civ or an AI one) needs to be carefully considered in terms of the :gold: cost of spreading the corporation (the :hammers: cost is less important) and the number of turns left in the game for any benefit to be reaped.

Under either State Property or Free Market, your production cities will be full of workshops and watermills. The gain from SP is 15-20:food: and 6:hammers:. The gain from FM is whatever your corporations gain, plus a trade route (which is now irrelevant in the final phase of a space race). Each :food: fewer from Sushi than required costs you :hammers: that Mining has to be able to make up in order to be competitive. If either you have enough Sushi-:food: or Mining-:hammers: that you're ahead, then you are probably paying serious maintenance costs. Thus your civ could afford these corporations in your production cities, but not elsewhere.

You should have arranged for a golden age during the final research and start of production phase - so switching civics at :hammers:-time is free. Before then, Free Market for the trade route should be common to both final-:hammers:-strategies.

On an islands map if you've had to conquer distant territory to get enough :science: to be competitive, then you will want to run State Property regardless.

ParadigmShifter
Apr 02, 2009, 05:52 PM
If ahead in tech I like to build Cristo Redentor so civic changes can happen outside GAs.

fed1943
Apr 03, 2009, 04:57 AM
I just do not agree with the "serious maintenance costs" of corporations:
The HQ gives 12 gp for each brand; with courthouses that balances would be 24 gp cost in each
city. Then the food corporation allows merchants, if still needed. Last, the secondary cities can,
with the help of the mining corp, build wealth if still needed.
Best regards,

mzprox
Apr 06, 2009, 05:26 AM
The key for me to win the space race on immortal difficulty (without going to war) is to build the internet. I don't go towards rocketry at all, internet is what give it to me and I can build the apollo program then. by the time the apollo is ready I'm starting to build the space elevator and teching forward to fusion to get the great engineer. In my last game one of the civ had 6 spaceship parts when i was still building the apollo, but i could still win quite easily (immortal diff).

Yxklyx
May 12, 2009, 08:39 AM
Some observations from a recent Monarch game using BTS 3.17.

I head straight to Superconductors first to get the Labs and then I get Genetics because at this time most of my cities are experiencing health problems (I usually run corporations and free market).

Espionage is very important. I had three parts destroyed. I slowly increased my espionage slider and after I researched everything I set it as close to 100% as I could as well as creating Spy specialists everywhere. I then built tons of spies and was able to destroy parts - also Perform Counterespionage. Espionage is key during this stage. Make sure you've got Security Bureaus everywhere. ESPIONAGE IS KEY!

mabraham
May 12, 2009, 09:06 AM
Some observations from a recent Monarch game using BTS 3.17.

I head straight to Superconductors first to get the Labs and then I get Genetics because at this time most of my cities are experiencing health problems (I usually run corporations and free market).

Espionage is very important. I had three parts destroyed. I slowly increased my espionage slider and after I researched everything I set it as close to 100% as I could as well as creating Spy specialists everywhere. I then built tons of spies and was able to destroy parts - also Perform Counterespionage. Espionage is key during this stage. Make sure you've got Security Bureaus everywhere. ESPIONAGE IS KEY!

All this presupposes that your opponents are close enough to you that you need to sabotage to win the race. If you're far enough ahead, you don't need to worry. Defend your main parts-building cities with a spy and expect that to be enough.

pquetzal
Oct 11, 2009, 07:28 AM
In BTS, I have ramped up espionage points enough to destroy labs, and other buildings in the opponents cities, but have been unable to find the space ship components (engine, stasis chamber etc) while perusing several of his cities although he is always destroying my components. I have launched my ship several times, only to be beaten by 2-3 turns!
Is this a bug in BTS?

thpe94ad
Oct 15, 2009, 08:59 AM
What achieves the maximum number of points in the 10-12 turn period after launch?

PieceOfMind
Oct 16, 2009, 11:25 PM
In BTS, I have ramped up espionage points enough to destroy labs, and other buildings in the opponents cities, but have been unable to find the space ship components (engine, stasis chamber etc) while perusing several of his cities although he is always destroying my components. I have launched my ship several times, only to be beaten by 2-3 turns!
Is this a bug in BTS?

Once your rival has finished a spaceship part, it's a completed project and so can't be destroyed (just like you can't destroy the Internet or SDI or their Apollo Program).
You can however, sabotage production on spaceship parts as they're being built.

Ignorant Teacher
Oct 17, 2009, 07:52 AM
You can also capture their capital after they launch. Automatic mission failure.

Rittmeyer
Oct 21, 2009, 08:05 PM
Once your rival has finished a spaceship part, it's a completed project and so can't be destroyed (just like you can't destroy the Internet or SDI or their Apollo Program).
You can however, sabotage production on spaceship parts as they're being built.


Wait, I'm pretty sure this can't be right... I also had pieces of my ship destroyed by enemy spies in more then one ocasion. Could it be that the AI can do it, while the human can't?? It would be pathetic...

I even came up with a way to avoid heavy spionage by the AI, using the queue to finish 9-12 parts in a matter of only 2 turns, making sure every possible Spy-sending AI (only those in your continent can do it, for some reason) had a counter-espionage mission done on them.

PieceOfMind
Oct 21, 2009, 08:35 PM
My understanding was they could be sabotaged during construction but not once they were finished. I may be mistaken though - it's been a while since I've used spies at that stage of the game.

nickrparish
Dec 30, 2011, 08:19 PM
Thanks Orion071! I'd been struggling with getting a space win on monarch for ages and your BTS tech path got me there!!!!!!!

Other than your cool tech path, the other thing that got me over the line was that I learned to stop warring around the mid-1600s, at 12 cities, and embark on the space race tech path. I think before I was trying to do 2 things at once: space race tech path AND try and get the upper hand on the other civs on the continent through war and trying to control land. I learned in this game that it's one or the other; dominate land or space race.

Cheers.

nickrparish
Dec 30, 2011, 08:23 PM
Oh and also: I got to superconductors via radio and computers rather than via refrigeration because you need radio to get satellites anyway. What are your (or anyone elses) thoughts there?

Luigiii2
Aug 26, 2012, 12:03 PM
I'm not the best source for space race (being conquest or domination myself, hur hur hur) but I think radio to computers to superconductors is a very solid strategy, as it helps keep up with military needs as well as space race.