For [c3c] and [civ3]

By Hagbart :king:

NOTE! - MAP UPDATED, NOW OPTIMIZED FOR C3C, IT'S A FLAT MAP NOW!
Version 2.1 for Conquests released Feb 14 2004.

This map is Tolkiens Middle Earth from Lord of the Rings.
The map is made for 8 players. It is a standard sized map, to speed up the turns.
It's a flat map.
I have not made any changes to the rules or civilizations,
other than making the tundra terrain produce NO FOOD.

Suggestions/critics/feedback are welcome, just post in this thread or email me at: hagbartciv@hotmail.com

Instructions: Just put the map in the Scenario folder (Civilization III\Conquests\Scenarios) and load it as a scenario in Civ3.

Enjoy! :goodjob:

If anyone want to use this map in a mod/scenario, credit me in your readme.


UPDATE HISTORY:
:nuke: Version 1.0 was released Feb 15 2002, 1.1 realesed shortly after.
1.0 was removed after 19 downloads
1.1 was removed after A WHOPPING! 1698 downloads.

:nuke: Version 2.0 was released Aug 3 2002. The map was much improved.
2.0 removed (from this thread) after 1310 downloads.
:scan: Version 2.0 for Original Civ3 is still available here tho :scan: --> Get 2.0 for Original Civ3 (http://home20.inet.tele.dk/ufo/civ/lands_of_middle_earth_v2_for_originalciv3.zip)

:nuke: The 2.1 update (C3C version) was released Jan 14 2004.
Update information 2.1:
It's now a FLAT map, optimized for Civ3 Conquests. Some minor terrain updates too.

Download version 2.1 below (for Civ3 Conquests):

Here is a view of the map (current version 2.1)...

I have posted some close-ups of Mordor and Eriador on the 2. page of this thread, take a look at them! :)

good job

looks nice

remy

woohoo 1000!!!!! downloads :D

so, do you like the map? tell me :confused:

how about make it a little more like Lotr.
If you take away all those modern tecs? Its strange to play with tanks. much better if only knights. (or something.)

what do you think?:p

As a Middle Earth fan and having just re-read the whole series, I have to comment on the geography. There is no place for:

Minas Tirith
Dunharrow
Helm's Deep
Minas Ithil/Minas Morgul
Osgoliath
Anorien
Henneth Annun
Isengard
Burad Dur
The Island of ?Tolfalas?

And the geography is off, city sites must be on hills for places like Moria and Barad Dur and Duharrow.

This will need much work, and possibly need to be made bigger before it can be realiticly played for LOTR.

But the major parts are there, and a nice job on the Emyn Muil.

However some geography needs altering. South Gondor should have at least a few deserts, and North Mordor needs to be more savage and wastelandish.

Also someone will need to create the civs.

Originally posted by Karl Erik
how about make it a little more like Lotr.
If you take away all those modern tecs? Its strange to play with tanks. much better if only knights. (or something.)

what do you think?:p

Right now I have no plans of editing the rules or civs, so I wont take away the modern units (... i dont have the skills to do it because the editor is too bad...im too lazy :rolleyes: ).
Maybe i'll use your idea in a later version of the map :) .

Others are welcome to do it if they want.

This map is not a scenario (right now at least), its just a map to play for fun. :crazyeyes .

Originally posted by History_Buff
As a Middle Earth fan and having just re-read the whole series, I have to comment on the geography. There is no place for:

Minas Tirith
Dunharrow
Helm's Deep
Minas Ithil/Minas Morgul
Osgoliath
Anorien
Henneth Annun
Isengard
Burad Dur
The Island of ?Tolfalas?

And the geography is off, city sites must be on hills for places like Moria and Barad Dur and Duharrow.

This will need much work, and possibly need to be made bigger before it can be realiticly played for LOTR.

But the major parts are there, and a nice job on the Emyn Muil.

However some geography needs altering. South Gondor should have at least a few deserts, and North Mordor needs to be more savage and wastelandish.

Also someone will need to create the civs.

I'm a Middle Earth fan too! :D, And yeah I know that the geography is not too accourate. One of the reasons to this is that you have no minimap in the editor, you have no way to check if its placed in the right place. The map got a little squished because the map dont have the right proportions to width and heigt.
Anyone know how to change this? :confused:

And by the way I hate desert :p , if I dumped desert all over Mordor the civ living there would be hefty backwards, compared to the other civs having nice grassland, hills and forests.
(I like grassland) :) . And desert in that nice country of Gondor??.

Whats Emun Muil, by the way?

There is no way I can place cities in the map with the current editor.

I would like to create a hole LOTR scenario, but thats not possible now. I can recommend the LOTR scenario/modpack by Harlan Thompson for civ2 (get it in the civ2 scenario database at Apolyton), its awesome.

Thank you for your comment! :D

The Emyn Muil is a hilled area west of Dagorlad, and as far as Mordor, you should custom create some terrain. I like one I played for civ2. But South Gondor really needs to be desert because it would create a no mans land between Gondor and near Harad.

Anyway, I suppose I'll post a list of unique units for anyone who turns this into a serious scenario.

Mordor: Trolls, Orcs, Black Riders, only 9 Nazgul.
Gondor: Gaurdsmen, maybe some Dead Men
Rohan: Eored, which are good knights.
Harad: Oliphaunts
Elves:??????
Easterlings: ??????

Elves:??????

Elves - archers.

Dwarves - axemen.

Alternative civs; Elves and Dwarves.

Be good if Elves can only build cities in forest, and Dwarves only on hills/mountains.

Need a new terrain type of Mordor - wasteland.

--
Callas

Elves, there ar several types of Elves, High Elves, Grey Elves, Dark Elves, Sea Elves........ etc..

Grey Elves (wood elves now?) should use Spear Elves n Bow Elves as described in the Hobbit.

Sea should ve fast boats coz they dun rely on Wind but pull but flocks of white birds

High Elves should be..... Glamous, beautiful weapons of all kinds, Swordmen mostly. the proud race wif beautiful cities etc

Dark Elves should ve fast moving, stealth units who stay DEEP inside dark woods.


N man, there ar SEVERAL types..
Wild man (barbarians?), Those of the South Gondor kingdom, those of the North minorities etc..

Dwarves should seperate them into house of Dain (Moria?), the King under the mountain etc.

---

N Goblins of the misty mountain n the watever other mountain.. Moria i thik watever...

1/2Orcs of Isnadurs n orcs of Mordor.

Trolls!

Deep south evil men!


Itz a gd map but i'm sure that a perfect one would need indepth details, wif all 16 civs.

Ar we talkin about the 2nd or 3rd Age?

Originally posted by DBSD13

N Goblins of the misty mountain n the watever other mountain.. Moria i thik watever...

Tolkien wrote in the appendixes of Lord of The Rings that "Goblins" was another word for "Orc", not a subspecies.

--
Callas

Really?
I thought Goblins ar smaller

From "The Complete Guide to Middle Earth": The definition for Goblins is simply "The Orcs".
Just my .02 I hope this mod works out, I'm not much help in the actual making of the mod but I have about a million books on tolkien and his works, so I can do a lot of research, I also know a ton off the top of my head.

Woud then the Balrog be the equivalent of Modern Armor?!?

Balrog = modern armor... Lol!

Balrogs were known as valasaukar (if i'm not mistaken)

That way.. we should put in Maiar and Valar as well... Or at least the Istari (Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman and 2 others)...

Hmm.. this mod=pack could become tricky...

:rolleyes:

Originally posted by DBSD13
Really?
I thought Goblins ar smaller

Goblins are the term used to refer to the orcs of the Misty Mountains. The mountain orcs are smaller and called goblins. Saruman's orcs are the Uruk Hai, and Sauron's are some Uruk Hai and some Mordor Orcs.

Elves:
Vanyar: Highest of the LIght Elves. Lived in Valinor
Noldor: The high elves we know and love. Elrond, Gil-Gilad, Fingolfin, Fingon, Feanor, Galadriel etc. Lived in Valinor and then Beleriand and scattered across Middle Earth(Rivendill and Lorien and Grey Havens mostly)
Teleri: Became the sea elves. Lived on islands between Beleriand and Valinor. (IIRC Cirdan the Shipwright was a sea elf)
Sindar: Grey elves. Lived in Beleriand. Mostly wiped out by Morgoth.
Green elves: Related to grey elves. Lived in in woods also, a bit more reclusive. Live in Mirkwood too.
Dark Elves: Live in the East. Aren't really in the books that much. Although one important one was Maeglin, who's father was a dark elf and because of not being pure good(dark elf blood) he gave away where Gondolin was hidden, and thus ended the reign of elves in Beleriand.

Dwarves:
Moria: Durin's folk.
Blue Mountain: The dwarves that lived in the Blue Mountains. I don't believe they were related to Durin.

Humans:
Gondor: We know them.
Rohan: Horsemen. They came from the area around Mirkwood(east and west). Related to Bard and Dalemen.
Easterlings: From the east. Evil and from near the Sea of Rhun.
Harad: THe evil human empire south of Gondor. Not as barbaric as the Easterlings.
Numenor: Mostly the same as the Gondor people. From the island of Numenor.
Arnor: The northern kingdom.
Isengard and Dunlands: The western barbarians and Saruman.

Hobbits:
Harfoot: THe shirefolk.
Stoor: Not really in the book. IIRC they lived near rivers.
The 3rd race of hobbits. I forget the name.


Mordor: Yeah we know them.
Melkor's empire: Angband and Utnomo. Similar to Mordor.
The kingdom of the Witch King: Forget the name. It was in the northern Misty Mountains.

Not to be a nit-picker, but goblin was the name used by the hobbits to refer to the orcs as a whole, not any specific orcs.

The third race of hobbits was the Fallohides.

And the Witch King, was called the Witch King of Angmar. Angmar was on both sides of the northern Misty Mountains, north of the Ettenmoors. The capital was Carn Dum. The people of Angmar were the Orcs, Hill-men, and other such creatures.

Once again you can thank "The Complete Guide to Middle Earth" for the preceding.

The goblins are used when referring to the smaller mountain orcs, such as the orcs of the Misty Mountain which are quite tasty raw(Ask Gollum), and the orcs of Khazad-Dum(Moria).

The Uruks are the large orcs of Mordor, and the Uruk-Hai were mixtures of Uruks and of the Wild Men of the forests around Gondor and Isenguard.

Wow, well this is becoming to sound like the real deal. If you want I can do a website for it, a logo and everything. So, interested?

Also, if there is someone who is a bit of a veteran, I'm sure people could do the thing about how Dwarves can only build cities in Mountains, and Elves in Forest. Say, also, very good graphic people could do special pictures as well, perhaps with say, instead of the grassland background, show the inside and outside of a mountain, and the same for Elven Tree cities. I wonder if it's possible to do Sea cities? Interested anyone about the Website offer? And don't worry, I've done many before.

Also, there could be new city styles for Mordor as well, black and pretty grisly looking as a rule as well.

An idea for the Rohan UU

Rider of Rohan
3/2/1
Can Retreat
Can move as though every tile is a road

So it would replace the swordsman.

Wizards could be bombard, or attack normally. Whaddya reckon all?

So, how do you like the map, now that at least some of you have done some playtesting?
Do I need to change the placement/amount of resources?
Change barbarian level?, witch now is set to normal.

If you think other changes are needed please tell me:D

I am jumping in joy to play that map when is ready :cool:
i think the elves shouldnt be only archers
and elvensare expert in scouting areas

Originally posted by arkfog
I am jumping in joy to play that map when is ready :cool:
i think the elves shouldnt be only archers
and elvensare expert in scouting areas

Hey, the map is ready! Just jump in joy into it and play right now! :crazyeyes
:egypt: Yes, elves like bows:egypt:

This map is NOT (at least not yet) a scenario, it's just a map, there are no Elves, or Orcs or whatever! :king:

if the sig works, hehe :D

This reply is NOT here... hehe

in case you want to release an updated version of the map, here's my two cents worth of suggestions:


1) In the very north, there's that bay at the north coast of Eriador. It's the bay of Forochel and the entire area south of it was described as an icy waste. So I'd put tundra there, not lushy green forests and grassland.

2) the area in northeast Eriador, west of the Misty Mountains, there was very little population throughout the ages and the terrain was called the "weathered heath". IMHO Plains would be best.

3) Most Gondorians lived in Anórien (west of the Anduin between the Entwash and Minas Tirith) and in the western part of Belfalas, which appears to be rather crunched.

4) The lands east of the Anduin were called "The Brown Lands" because Sauron had scorched them at the end of the second age, and nothing grew there except for hard weeds. Plains would be good to represent this area, as it could have been turned into something arable.

5) The Morannon, the gate of Mordor, was a natural opening between the Ephel Duath and the Ered Lithui, the mountain chains forming the northern and western border of Mordor. Udûn and Barad-Dûr look cool on your map!

6) The Ered Luin and Mirkwood are quite big on your map. Between the Ered Luin and the western coast of Gondor, there should be room for the coasts of Enedwaith and Minhiriath... the rivers Greyflood (flows near Imladris) and Isen actually both have their own estuaries into the sea, while they seem to flow together on your map.

But that map is already fun to play! I'm just missing that one hill for Moria, but I already modified the map a little to make that possible. (I made it so you can set up Moria as a link between the eastern and the western side of the Misty Mountains. I carved a little valley out of the eastern side...)

To Spearhead:
Thank you for your comments, your surgestions are very helpfull! :)
I wont update my map right now, but maybe in a couple of weeks.
I have a feeling that a much better map-editor in a new patch will be out before May. At least I hope so. :D

Can you post your modified version of the map, so I can see where Moria should be?
Just zip it and send it to me at: andromath@hotmail.com
or attach it to a reply in this thread.

I have been enjoying your map immensely. Keep up the good work, let me know if there is anything I can do to assist you.

Originally posted by kring
I have been enjoying your map immensely. Keep up the good work, let me know if there is anything I can do to assist you.

Thank you very much! :D And bump too!

First and foremost I would like to congratulate you for making this map. It sounds like you've done a great job. I personally haven't downloaded the map, since I'm waiting for a Lord of the Rings scenario/mod pack to arrive (what's the fun of playing on Middle Earth without being able to be the hobbits!). I was just curious about one thing, what age of Middle Earth is this map of? I alwas thought it would be interesting to see a map of the first age, before "...the seas invaded the lands, and shores foundered, and ancient isles were drowned..." To have Numenor and Valinor on the map would really be amazing. Granted, this would be a difficult undertaking, since I haven't found anthing decriptive enough about the geography of Valinor to make a map of it. I guess I'll just have to dream :sad:. I also have some interesting (well, at least I think they are) suggestions for a Tolkien scenario/mod pack, I just wasn't sure if this was the right place to post them (since this is a forum about maps ;) )

Great map hagbart, although more plains and desert in Morder would be nice(I also noticed a forest in eastern Morder.). But overall, a very good map. :goodjob:

Here is a cool map of the whole of middle earth. Someone might use this.

Originally posted by strider2k2
I personally haven't downloaded the map, since I'm waiting for a Lord of the Rings scenario/mod pack to arrive (what's the fun of playing on Middle Earth without being able to be the hobbits!). I also have some interesting (well, at least I think they are) suggestions for a Tolkien scenario/mod pack, I just wasn't sure if this was the right place to post them (since this is a forum about maps ;) )

Here is a LotR modpack: LotR Modpack (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22142) It is a very detailed modpack. Check it out.

Originally posted by kring


Here is a LotR modpack: LotR Modpack (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22142) It is a very detailed modpack. Check it out.

Thanks, I'll download it as soon as Iget a chance :D.

Version 2.0 attached to the first post, go download it!

Thanks to History_buff and Spearhead for their feedback it was most helpfull in the update of the map... :D

Below you see MORDOR :eek:

Below you see ERIADOR :D

Great map. Tip for people: if you don't want the Mordor civ to make boats and sail around to The Shire (which it shouldn't be able to do as there should be land there) then make it so that they cannot build boats with the editor.

Originally posted by Phoenix
Great map. Tip for people: if you don't want the Mordor civ to make boats and sail around to The Shire (which it shouldn't be able to do as there should be land there) then make it so that they cannot build boats with the editor.

Thx. :)
The Mordor civ already can't sail to the Shire and vice versa. I've placed mountains along the cost, and since you can't build cities on mountains it is impossible to build boats and sail to the Shire (sail east to the Shire) from the eastern lands (like Mordor).
BUT it is possible to cross the mountains with airplanes, I can't prevent that. :o

Im going to use this for a scenario, expect it to come tonight or tommorow. You will get the credit for the map, although i will make a few changs to it.

I am currently working on a Civ3 scenario/mod for LOTR and during a break I came accross this posting. How convenient! Once I have them completed I'll be sure to post them. I'll be making them from the PTW editor. I do plan on a 'generic' and a 'representaive' version of the finished product. That is I am making a set of rules, civs, units and so on to play both a generic or "start the game off in undeveloped land" and work your way up... as well as a scenario which will start off to simulate the state of affairs just after the battle of 5 armies. I am having some trouble properly pathing my newly created units (Rangers for the Gondorians as an example) and if anyone can tell me the proper steps to create a new unit from scratch I'd appreciate it... I'll be surfing to other forum topics when I finish this post to try and find that info for myself. If anyone wants to submit something they would like to see or think would be cool I'll surely accept and consider it- plus credits in the notes of course. How about another teaser... I plan on including Ents and the haradrim, Easterlings, Corsairs... and once I have all of that down I'll spread out from Middle Earth itself and add the rest of the continent... perhaps take a shot at Arda before Numenor and the Undying lands become lost to normal exploration. Thanks!

It looks like ill be delayed... I dont know how to change it to PTW without screwing up. It doesent recognize it on the scenario list when im in PTW. Is there a way around this so I can make a magnificent scenario that we both get credit for? :D

Is it in either the Civ 3 or PtW Scenarios Folder? It has to be in one of the two for you to play in using your PtW CD.

I have "good" news and I have "It's going to be good news" about the promised LOTR Middle Earth mod/scenario I started last night. The GOOD news is that with Hagbart's EXCELLENT map as a start (and properly praised and credited) I have made adjustements (edited the map) to prevent troops wrapping from one edge to another and I also added some generally more representative terrain tiles. There is more desert in Harad and so on. I am still not personally happy with as much tundra as I left in the north where Angband begins (I did remove quite a bit for playability) because of course Beleriand is going to be up there when I make a bigger map of Arda... BUT I have established starting location, edited the excellent map some and decided upon the Civs that will be able to participate. The scenario loads properly in PTW games and I'm pretty stoked to strt making the major adjustments to the scenario. Befor I do that though, I have the "It's GOING to be good news..." to share and ask for some input about.

When going into the scenario rules for the available civilizations I see that none of the PTW additional civs are present. I would really like to have them to pool from in my scenario (so I can use their units, leaders and so on) but since the original file from Hagbart was not created in PTW I don't have them on my list. I opened the file in PTW and have saved it as that format but still no new civs. Does anyone know how to include these so thay can be selected? I know I could just ADD the civs and create them from scratch but I really wanted to avoid creating ALL my player's choices from scratch in this game (it might be campy for soem diehards but others might like it if Ceasar settled on the shores of Anfalas and gave Aragorn something else to think about!). If you have any idea of how Icould get the NEW civs to appear in my list I would realy appreciate the input!

Other than that minor issue my only other setback is properly assigning a newly created unit type so that the scenario can call it up for play... but alas I am scouring other threads at the moment looking for info on that, please send you suggestions if you already know what you are doing in creating new units... I promise to give you a thanks in the credits and it would speed up the publishing of this mod tremendously! Thanks!

its great to hear about all the good work you guys are doing, i like the current map of middle earth by hagbart, its excellent. one thing though, do you think there is a way it can be upgraded to a huge map version, with possible 24 civs on one standard map, it might get a little cramped...
maybe bigger parameters would not only help with gameplay, but also with the aesthetic look of the map and its original state.

good work so far! keep posting!

ok, i got my problem fixed and the two towers scenario is done. It has a few flaws in it and they will be fixed once i get responses on it. :D

V 1.2 will be out soon, so the Two towers Scenario I made will be better and more intersting, remember to post any comments on the map because I think It can be better.

Hello again! I have slowly started work on the scenario and have good things to report. I modified Hagbart's map a bit (replaced starting locations, added deserts, changed some mountain areas slightly for Mordor/Isengard, removed the wrap around effect from going east to the sea...) and fixed the player starting locations. I renamed the barbarian tribes (wildmen, woses, dunlendings, etc.) and there are 16 players in the game. Unfortunately with fixed positions and my lack of editing experience this means you always begin play as the Player1 position (Gondor) but I am certain with a nudge by friendly suggestion that will be remedied to allowing the choice of any starting location. I have changed the names of the Leaders but the civ names are all the same (Gondor = Romans, leader Aragorn as an example). I have not edited the city names lists for each player nor have I edited the famus unit names, but those are on my list! I tried passingly to link an appropriate civ to the middle earth counterpart for test purposes and I ran a game to see how the balance works out. Other than seeing I'll have to add some startegic resources around (only mordor and harad with access to oil... YIKES) for balance, tha games went very well. It is a great map overall to start with! Again I ask for any suggestion on how to edit certain things (add the new PTW civs to the scenario, allow player to choose starting race while keeping fixed start locations, how to edit new units to load properly) and everyone who gives useful advice will be credited. I'll post as soon as I have something of substance!

Clay's Tutorial (http://www.bclay.com/civ3maps/tutorials.asp)

Here is a link for a series of tutorials done by Clay, which include:

Civ 3 Editor Basics A tutorial covering the basics of the Civ 3 Editor by Clay

Advanced Units An in depth tutorial covering various unit properties that can be set in the editor.

Advanced Improvements and Wonders An in depth tutorial covering most aspects of the Improvements and Wonders in Civ 3.

How to add a new unit A walk through on adding a new unit to the game

Thank you for the link to the editor tutorials Kring... I'll get them under my belt and work on the scenario while I am off for the holiday. Happy new year!

Hi all! :D
I'm very happy you like my ME map, thanks for the kind words...

To TheRockit & Sarevok & anybody else:
Feel free to use/modify my map as you wish for scenarios etc. Just credit me for the map in the readme file/scenarioinfo.

I'm sorry I can't help you with PTW issues, I don't have the expansion (yet). Does the map work in PTW? If it doesn't, is it possible to convert it so it will work?

It's great someone wants to create a scenario of LOTR, one of the best books/ movies ever!
Good luck with the scenarios...

Hagbart :)

Yes, it works in PtW. I haven't had any problems using it.

Will be testing this now, seems too be a fun map.

Originally posted by Silverblade
Will be testing this now, seems too be a fun map.

It sure is! :p :goodjob:

:band:


Well, I just updated the map so It's a flat map optimized for Civ3 Conquests. Take a look at my first post in this thread. :)

:nuke: :egypt: :nuke: