COTM 23 - Worst start ever?

Civilization: Korea. (You have red color, otherwise the map ended up with 3 Civs with very similar colors)
Land Mass: Your worst nightmare...
Map size: Standard.
Barbarians: Restless
Rivals: 7 (Greece, Inca, Sumeria, Maya, Celts, India, Netherlands).
Difficulty: Warlord+ (some AIs have been given extra starting units, otherwise standard warlord difficulty)
Climate: Evil.. Just plain vicious.. :evil:
Other: Iron and Saltpeter have fixed locations. Huts give workers instead of settlers.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/cotm23large.jpg

Conquest-Class Bonuses:

Start with Warrior Code. (In addition to Bronze Working and Alphabet)
Start with an extra worker (located in same place as settler).

Predator-Class Equalisers:

Start without Bronze Working.
Scientific trait removed.

The map itself will be your worst opponent in this game...
Since this is just warlord difficulty the AIs are there just to make speedbumps.. or..? :mischief:

Edit: since the download server is down, and you cant see the normal image link.. here is the image attached:

perhaps settler north :rolleyes:

if there is land north... i fear that the goody hut is the closest hospitable piece of land... hope there is more north

I hope that vulcano doesn't erupt right away

I hope that vulcano doesn't erupt right away
It cant erupt before you get a chance to move (they also start to smoke a turn before erupting I think)

(they also start to smoke a turn before erupting I think)

That sounds just like yours truly

The question would seem to be which way does the worker go. I think he goes north and ignores the goody hut - what are we going to pop that's so valuable?

Here's my guess on the map - we are alone on our "island". There are essentially 2 places to settle - by the goody huts to the east, or in the center by the fresh water fish and the marshlands. I think our starting settler goes to the fish/marsh because Gyathaar is :evil: enough to have the other location not even have enough food to produce another settler. We will have to settle there later to build a boat because our capital will be landlocked.

The question would seem to be which way does the worker go.

Getting the hut would cost four turns if the rest of the analysis is correct. For a Tech or Worker it's worth it. For 25 gold, maps or nothing it's not.

What if we have to clear a Marsh before even settling?

I think our starting settler goes to the fish/marsh because Gyathaar is evil enough to have the other location not even have enough food to produce another settler. We will have to settle there later to build a boat because our capital will be landlocked.

Seems reasonable. But I see two Hills and a Whale by the goody hut. Should take us to size three once we've cultural expansion.

For a worker, yes, it would be worth it, but can we pop a worker while we have a settler on the map? For a tech, I still think it can wait. If we are alone, it's not going anywhere, and if we're not alone, we can beat any first tier techs out of our neighbor.

I don't think we have to clear marsh before settling - it looks like tundra SE and SW of the fish which would be fine for settling on.

You're right about the whale - I guess even Gyathaar has his off days.

wow, this start appears even harder than the Babylon Warlord GOTM. Not sure what to do yet, but i definately wont be going for any high risk moves after last month, where i sent my galley off into the water to the W and drowned with my settler.

landscape

That’s a rear start.:confused:
With your settler and worker. :dance:
Its too a rear landscape.
With mountains and vulcan’s. :mad:

Is it a 1 April joking ??
with match mountains an vulcan’s.
:joke: :joke: :joke:

Yes my guess would be an April fools joke.

It cant erupt before you get a chance to move (they also start to smoke a turn before erupting I think)

volcano

Move your settler 1 tile
See you a other volcano this smoking
And than erupt.:p :rotfl:

If i get my cow in cotm22 that'll leave me with just the 100K award. Going for 100K culture on such a map may be interesting :D (i'm not joking because on a normal map having 200 ICSed towns and poprushing stuff each turn is just not fun). So i hope it's not an apil fools joke.

My guess is that our fixed iron is on the mountain next to the volcano, so that we'll have to build 2 roads on mountains and a colony to connect it, and when the volcano blows we'll have to clear the pollution to reconnect it (assuming our culture will already expand us by that time and the colony won't work anymore) :p

Well, its on Warlord... so it might be real. :eek:

For a worker, yes, it would be worth it, but can we pop a worker while we have a settler on the map?

Ooops, I guess not. Perhaps it's even worth it to wait for capital foundation and then pop?


For a tech, I still think it can wait. If we are alone, it's not going anywhere

But once we've built a unit the odds of popping something good go down. Sure they'll still be good at this difficulty level, which reduces the incentive to move the Worker away from the Settler. But on the other hand we also scout regardless of outcome of the pop. I still have an itch.


we can beat any first tier techs out of our neighbor.

Surely that's much more expensive than four Worker turns.

Well, its on Warlord... so it might be real. :eek:

Please don't assume that another map will arrive before Apri1. It isn't going to happen. Gyathaar really is your guide this time around. :)

What makes you say the workers turns are wasted? For all I know settling on the hill near the whale is preferable to settling on tundra near the fish and being land-locked.

For all I know settling on the hill near the whale is preferable to settling on tundra near the fish and being land-locked.

Yes. That's about what I had in mind when I said that there's also some scouting involved in going eastwards with the Worker.

Moving away from the Settler rather than towards it does involve a risk of having to retrack some steps. We still have no clue to what is hidden in the middle of the map north of the foggy mountain.

Climate: Evil.. Just plain vicious.. :evil:

Seems irrelevant with all those mountains :p

Moving away from the Settler rather than towards it does involve a risk of having to retrack some steps. We still have no clue to what is hidden in the middle of the map north of the foggy mountain.

It's a risk too having to decide where to settle without knowing what's east of the hills. The settler has to go through the middle. When the worker goes east we'll know in four or five turns if it's worth settle in the middle, in the east or even investigate south.

btw. I won't pop the hut rightaway but wait for Seoul.

Conquest-Class Bonuses:

Start with Warrior Code. (In addition to Bronze Working and Alphabet)
Start with 20 gold.

Predator-Class Equalisers:

Start without Bronze Working.


I find the equalisers intriguing.

For conquest warrior code is handy for killing the odd barb, but what mountains can be moved by 20 gold? If, as Gyathaar states, the map is our greatest enemy, the conquest bonuses hardly help.

The predator equaliser doesn’t look very impressive either. It’s warlord level, so our top-players will have little difficulty achieving any VC they like. One of the few challenges one can think of is beating good players who play at open level. I wonder if taking away bronze will be noticed by them.

The predator equaliser doesn’t look very impressive either. It’s warlord level, so our top-players will have little difficulty achieving any VC they like. One of the few challenges one can think of is beating good players who play at open level. I wonder if taking away bronze will be noticed by them.
True.. but I didnt have any other good idea for what to change to make it harder.. I dont want to take away alphabet for several reasons, and making the AIs stronger would in many ways be an advantage instead of disadvantage when on warlord for stronger players :) - I guess I can take away their 10 gold too :p

I didnt have any other good idea for what to change to make it harder

Did you consider changing the cost factor or removing the scientific trait?

It's a risk too having to decide where to settle without knowing what's east of the hills.

Settling is always a risk, but it has to be taken. In a GOTM, I expect to be able to settle fairly close to the starting position of the simple reason that the competition otherwise gets too infested with randomness (and rewards for cheating). Therefore moving the Worker away from the Settler would appear to increase the risk as we can judge it at present.

I follow your reasoning. But it would imply that the settling area is in the middle, as it's the only area that can be settled within say four or five turns. However after the second move of the settler the middle area can be evaluated. At least to an extend if there are only mountains or some decent soil too. When it looks promising then the worker can step back and therefor only loose two turns. When the middle doesn't look promising then the worker steps east and we'll be able to judge the eastern situation.

Edit: one could even consider not to move the worker the first turn. And after the second settler move decide to move the worker east or north.

Maybe it's a good idea to give the conquest players an extra spear or archer. It looks like it may take some time before Seoul will be founded. In the previous COTM it was certainly possible to stumble across some barbs before the capitol was founded.

Since Gyathaar said if we were blue there would be 3 different civs with similar colors. It's definitly the Germans, since there default AND alternate color are blue, and I also think maybe the hittites, since they're still blue, but not exactly the German blue. It can't be maya, because they're alternate color is American blue.

So, the Germans and the Hittites are two of our rivals. Germany starts with WC, and BW, and we don't have warrior code. The Hittites start with pottery and alpha, and we don't have pottery. So for beginning research (whenever we get our city built) I'd do Writing.

Since Gyathaar said if we were blue there would be 3 different civs with similar colors. It's definitly the Germans, since there default AND alternate color are blue, and I also think maybe the hittites, since they're still blue, but not exactly the German blue. It can't be maya, because they're alternate color is American blue.

So, the Germans and the Hittites are two of our rivals. Germany starts with WC, and BW, and we don't have warrior code. The Hittites start with pottery and alpha, and we don't have pottery. So for beginning research (whenever we get our city built) I'd do Writing.

Check the open post, I see Gyathaar had stated 7 rivals clearly. No German or Hitties.

Did you consider changing the cost factor or removing the scientific trait?
I could remove the scientific trait I guess.. :)

Changed the Conquest and Predator bonuses.

Can you get a worker if the settler builds next to the goody hut? I don't think so because the GH is opened before the city is founded.

I'm pretty sure of this so... Settler north and, if that doesn't reveal anything interesting, the worker goes east. If there's still nothing interesting by the time the decision needs to be made, I open the GH and start working the square.

Predator-Class Equalisers:

Start without Bronze Working.
Scientific trait removed.


Ouch! What have I done? What have I done?

I have a low-resolution screen.

That's why I don't see the Galley, right? :)

I see Gyathaar is spreading his SGOTM love into a new area.

I hope the restless barbs don't randomly affect the start. The area to the south will give 2 fishes and some gold but without a harbor there will be limited food. I think I'd go ahead and explore eastward with the worker, other than clearing marsh there doesn't appear to be much for him to do.

If this game follows recent lower difficulty games we can expect to be vastly outsized and behind in techs throughout much of the AA. The additional starting units for the AI's usually means settlers. Republic slingshot might even be in question if we can only build 2 cities with limited growth.

These staff guys are good - I'm tempted to make a comeback.

I would not have popped the hut with the worker, unless it were monarch or above. If monarch or above, there would have been a risk of popping barbs, but you can't pop barbs if you have no military. With warlord, the risk for barbs is non-existant anyway.

The direction of the worker is, however, conditioned by one more thing. If there is another food bonus besides the whale, settling in that area would have been possible. We can already see that there are at least two tiles with 2f in a southern location, so settling there would have been my first choice. (Note the "woulds"; I'm not making that comeback.)

On the other hand, have you guys considered that you may pop a town, which would be much less valuable later? The way back to the hut may also be blocked by barbs for some time.

Towns are a good thing.They can always be abandoned for a worker.

I hope the restless barbs don't randomly affect the start.Good point. Turning barbs off might be a good idea.

I have never had a problem with early barb arracks in any of my test games (and believe me.. the first versions was much worse than the current version..)

Btw.. also remember you get a 400% bonus vs barbs on warlord

Towns are a good thing.They can always be abandoned for a worker.Or...perhaps...boost research for much earlier Map Making? :mischief:

If you pop a town before founding a capital - that one would be your capital right? Nice site (probably) :lol: - I rather take the worker :rolleyes:

can you pop a town if you can't pop a settler? I would assume it will give you a worker...

I have never had a problem with early barb arracks in any of my test games (and believe me.. the first versions was much worse than the current version..)

Btw.. also remember you get a 400% bonus vs barbs on warlordA 400% bonus won't help if they take out your settler.

A 400% bonus won't help if they take out your settler.
Restless barbs dont appear naturally in a warlord game till turn 30.. you intend to walk around with your settler that long? :rolleyes:

I'll probably pop the hut early while there's still a chance for a city. At worst you'll get a map or gold. My concern is that there is very little usable terrain and that we'll be forced to fight for land in a way similar to COTM 22. Even at warlord, archers & spears against pikes & knights is a losing proposition.

Restless barbs dont appear naturally in a warlord game till turn 30.. you intend to walk around with your settler that long? :rolleyes:

No just 10, but with all those mountains to climb he has to rest for another 20.

can you pop a town if you can't pop a settler? I would assume it will give you a worker...

Yes, you can. You only get a worker instead of settler because the two units have been swapped around in the game's list of free units. It has no effect on town popping.

Interesting discussion ... too bad I can't see the map y'all is talking about ... maybe I should come back another time :(

EDIT: I just read Ainwoods 'Problems with downloads & submissions' ... I guess the problems are related. This means I will have to be ....

patient :eek:

We'd better replace the image with a forum attachment. I'll do it when I get home, if Gyathaar doesn't get to it first.

We'd better replace the image with a forum attachment. I'll do it when I get home, if Gyathaar doesn't get to it first.
Actually I did it 15 mins before you posted.. :)

Thanks Gyathaar ... now I can join in :D

Having read through this thread, I am very very tempted to move the worker towards the Hut. Best-case-scenario is of course that I pop a town. But I am pretty much in the dark about how big a chance we have that happening. Would anyone happen to know how big this chance is in this particular case?

But this may be irrelevant. Since I will pop no barbs, the worst result could be a little cash. Even some map info could proove very useful given the map conditions. So unless someone can give me another reason not to pop the hut immediately - besides possibly having to retrack a few steps - I'm going for it.

Now as for settling Seoul: this will of course depend on what I find in the dark to the north. It seems we're already on the southern edge of the map, so if at all possible I will not found Seoul in the dark part to the south. Even if an unexpected grassland cow appears out there, settling there will have to wait a bit.

So unless someone can give me another reason not to pop the hut immediately - besides possibly having to retrack a few steps - I'm going for it.

here's another reason by Chamnix

... but can we pop a worker while we have a settler on the map?

... Even if an unexpected grassland cow appears out there, settling there will have to wait a bit.

It rather depends on what you find in the middle. If there's only room for 1 city with no food bonuses, then I would prefer a capitol south if there indeed would be a grassland cow.

Re: popping a worker
Even if you found the capital first, its by no means sure you will in fact pop a worker, so all we're really talking about are altered chances. Like I said, I'll settle for a tech or a little map info. Thanks for the note tho.

Re: founding the capital
I didn't phrase my point correctly. What I meant was: I'm planning to settle as soon as a half decent spot appears, and will not head south on the slim chance there might be an even better spot (the proverbial 'grassland cow'). If I knew beforehand there was indeed a grassland cow to the south (from map info from the hut for instance ;)), I would definitely found my capital there.

I would like everyone to do as he (or she) pleases and I'd love to hear about it afterwards. But I'm popping that hut tomorrow and that's that! :D

EDIT: by 'a half decent spot', I mean of course a spot that allows my capital to produce a new settler. I do realize I am screwed otherwise.

Aah, I finally understand why we have such an evil map

It's NORWAY

See, all those mountains and fjords and...

Land Mass: Your worst nightmare...
Barbarians: Restless
Climate: Evil.. Just plain vicious..

I'm only supprised there are still whales around

EDIT: by 'a half decent spot', I mean of course a spot that allows my capital to produce a new settler. I do realize I am screwed otherwise.

Don't worry you can produce a settler just by having 1 coastal tile in range. ;)

Have Seoul work the coastal-tile (+ 1 food) and set build to a worker. Have your initial worker mine a mountain. After 10 turns you've got another worker and let him help the first worker. Set build to a settler and work the sea for 1 more turn, so you have +1 food.
Then work the (almost) mined mountain. After 10 or so turns the settler finishes. Join the 2 workers to Seoul and voila: you have a settler.

Aah, I finally understand why we have such an evil map

It's NORWAY

See, all those mountains and fjords and...



I'm only supprised there are still whales around

We got tired of chewing on rocks.;)

Don't worry you can produce a settler just by having 1 coastal tile in range. ;)

Have Seoul work the coastal-tile (+ 1 food) and set build to a worker. Have your initial worker mine a mountain. After 10 turns you've got another worker and let him help the first worker. Set build to a settler and work the sea for 1 more turn, so you have +1 food.
Then work the (almost) mined mountain. After 10 or so turns the settler finishes. Join the 2 workers to Seoul and voila: you have a settler.

Great trick, but if that's how we have to do it, I'm afraid it will proove pretty hard to keep up with AI with better starting positions. Even on monarch. Well, can't wait!

.... Even on monarch.
It's Warlord :)

I Just Started....This Is Truly Evil. Evil. Rosemary's Baby Evil. Making Someone Watch Mother-In-Law For 24 Hours Straight Evil.

I LOVE IT! THANKS!:goodjob:

PLEASE - No posting here once you have opened the save.

I Am Truly Sorry, I Completely Forgot About That...It Has Been Awhile Since I Posted.

Looks like I am going to have time to play this one after all. I'll probably start in expansion mode with the intention of winning via either conquest or domination, though if the map as big of a challenge as expected, I might go for histograph just to push myself.

Crazy sado-mazo map!!!!!!