OK here's the thread for Chukchi Husky's first "succession game" (SG).
Here are the settings:
This save is in Conquests
civ Spanish (randomly selected)
7 random opponents
Standard map size
Continents
Romaing barbs
Temperate, Wet, 4 billion year old world
Emperor

We will discuss what civ, map type, climate, barbs, victory condition, play level etc.here.

I am comfortable at most every level except Sid so I'm flexible on all fronts.

This is generally how SG's are played. Let's leave this reasonably loose so we can discuss things without feeling pressured.

The first player takes the first 20 turns then the next player takes 10 turns then the next player takes 10 turns rinse and repeat. Generally, we try to say "I got it" within 24 hours and 72 to play. If you need a one day extension, then just ask. Players can work out skips between themselves, just post a message to the thread. If you can't play within 72 total, switch places or ask for a skip. [10 turns each always.]

You can post the save and turnlog here. Try to detail your turns the best you can so we can discuss what our victory plan and goals are. Also, lurkers love seeing pictures so let's try to keep them happy. :D

Roster:
Whomp
Chukchi Husky
Taliesin
Punkbass2000
Birdjaguar
Mirc
<Lurker>


SG's are played honorably so I've taken LKendter's set of rules.
The following tactics are PROHIBITED:

RoP Abuse Tactics - Denying resources, blocking key tiles, RoP rape, or other ways to screw-up a civ via the RoP. A scout in AI territory has an explicit RoP and is subject to this rule.

Peace Treaty abuse - If you get concessions from the AI you must wait for the 20 turns to end before declaring another war.

Resource abuse - You can't disconnect / reconnect a resource every turn for the sake of building cheap units to upgrade with excess cash.

Ship chaining exploit - you can move a ship, unload troops to another ship in the same square not using any movement, move that ship, etc. This allows you to ship an indefinite distance, and that is why I consider it an exploit.

The negative science exploit - you can run a huge deficit (-250 / turn) of negative cash with a token penalty of one lost worker / cheap building. If cash will go below zero, the research level must be dropped.

Palace Jump - You abandon the capital city to move the palace to a new location. If you want to move the palace, build a new palace.

Mass troop jumping - You can't give away a give a city to transport a large amount of troops to another landmass.

Worker baiting - You can't spread around and sacrifice workers to an oncoming attack. This is often done to avoid losing real units or cities. This takes advantage of the AI failure to prioritize targets.


Standard LK house rules:
1) Worker automation of any kind is prohibited.

2) Worker blockades are prohibited. This prevents things such as fortifying workers along the coast to stop invasions, blocking troops from going through your territory with workers, etc. Workers activity doing something along the coast is fine. The workers must be actively doing something.

3) You may not declare war on a civ if you are currently shipping cash and / or goods to the civ.

4) Even if not covered under exploits listed, please try not to use tactics that take advantage of holes in the game design.

5) Our reputation is golden - please respect it.

6) Self-research is highly preferred, if it is viable.

7) As you probably know barbs are screwed up in C3C. It is preferred that you add the following line to your Civ3 .ini file - noAIpatrol=0. Adding "noAIpatrol=0" to the .ini file turns the annoying patrolling back on for the AIs, but also restores movement to the barbarians.

Yes, keep me happy! As I said in the other thread, I will be lurking.

Edit: Now I saw what you posted in the bday thread of CH. I am in now!

Heh, I thought we'd do a PBEM. Anyway, I don't care too much about the level, whatever Chuchki is comfortable with works for me. I haven't played single-player in over a year, but I used to play Deity. I usually play settings at random, so I don't care too much in that respect either.

Cool punkbass.

I think we'll try to help Chukchi improve his game with a little training and have some fun beating up on the AI instead of each other.

Checking in. One thing-- I don't have C3C, just vanilla and PTW, so I hope we're not planning a Conquests game. We should also make sure we all have the latest patches.

I am comfortable and always win at Monarch or below, and Emperor or Deity would also be fine. As far as settings go, I usually put everything on Random, so I'm completely flexible, and standard victory conditions or any subset of them would be fine.

That's fine with me Taliesin. I haven't played in a long time but what the heck it's like riding a bike, right?

I'm here. I lose at chieftain.

I'll have to drop out. I didn't consider that we might not be playing C3C.

No problems Chukchi. We'll teach you some things.

I suppose we should decide first whether to play PTW or C3C. I haven't played PTW in a million years so I'd prefer C3C but we should discuss.

I have Conquests.

I only have conquests installed also.

I suppose I will drop out, then.

(If I may, I will continue to observe.)

To those of you who think you can't play vanilla/PTW because you've got conquests... look closely. You have all three. ;)

I'm here. I lose at chieftain.@Chukchi Husky: I'd be more than glad to give you some pointers along the way if you want them. I've been in a couple of slugfests with Whomp here... any friend of his is a friend of mine.

To those of you who think you can't play vanilla/PTW because you've got conquests... look closely. You have all three. ;)

In this case, I'm back in. :D

(Unless everybody really prefers C3C, of course.)

I don't mind.

Whomp asked me to roll some starts and I rolled this start.

Here are the settings:
This save is in Conquests [c3c]
civ Spanish (randomly selected)
7 random opponents
Standard map size
Continents
Romaing barbs
Temperate, Wet, 4 billion year old world

<<STARTING SAVE>> (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/husky-01-4000BC.SAV)

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/2913/image18sf.jpg

Dang sorry Taliesin please lurk but I think we're best to play C3C. I don't think I remember a thing about PTW.

I like Tubby's start is at Monarch level.

Let's beat the AI at monarch!!

I like the start a lot and think we should use it. Spain makes for an interesting training game because they don't have the strongest traits so we really have think out our moves.

Their UU doesn't come till late middle ages which will add to the challenge.
Religious is not a very beneficial trait unless we wanted to win by culture and the lack of anarchy turns.
Seafaring is a little more interesting since we can send out curraghs immediately to make new friends (or foes) to trade with. We need to use this to our full advantage early.

What do you guys think?

What do you guys think?I think this is an intersting start. And I think the team should discuss some opening moves. Where is the power in this start, and how would you harness it? What are the strengths of the civ, and how do you play to those strengths?

If this is Monarch we should aim at a fast or very impressive victory.
CH, no problem if you lose on Chieftain, you will learn very fast.

The start looks very promising.

BTW, we can't declare war before the treaty expires? :eek: This will be hard for me....

BTW, we can't declare war before the treaty expires? :eek: This will be hard for me.... :D We will play with honor and abide by our agreements.
If the AI declares on us, no problem.

How about our opening moves? Worker? Which tiles? First build? Research path? What knowledge do we have about our opponents?

I have my thoughts but I'd like to hear Chukchi's thoughts since part of this game will be improving his game.

What time zones are we all in? I'm GMT -7 (in English that's US Mountain time ;) ).

I have my thoughts but I'd like to hear Chukchi's thoughts since part of this game will be improving his game.I don't have any thoughts.
What time zones are we all in? I'm GMT -7 (in English that's US Mountain time ;) ).I think I'm in GMT+1, the clocks went forward by an hour.

I'm GMT-6 (CST).

OK Chukchi...
Do you see anything that can make our capital grow faster? Our worker could do some things that will help us.
Are you familiar with the philo sling?
We are Spain. We start with CB and alphabet.
Do you know how to see what civs we are playing against before we meet them?
Here they are and their traits.
Iroquois--Alphabet/Pottery
English--Alphabet/Pottery
Vikings--Alphabet/WC
Egypt-- CB/Masonry
Japan--CB/The Wheel
Mongols--WC/ Pottery
Ottomans--Masonry/BW
Does any of this help us decide how we should trade or what our first build is?

How does this sound for a roster...
I'll take the first 20
then Chukchi for 10
Punkbass for 10
Birdjaguar for 10
then Mirc for 10
Lurker for 10

Try to say what would you do with the game.

What do you mean by GMT+1? I know the clocks went forward by an hour, but you aren't still in GMT time?

I'm in GMT+2 (Central Eastern Europe time).

Edit: Crosspost with Whomp.

lurker's comment: I shall lurk!

What do you mean by GMT+1? I know the clocks went forward by an hour, but you aren't still in GMT time?

GMT doesn't follow daylight savings. I'm in GMT -5, or EST.

Do you see anything that can make our capital grow faster?The cows?
Are you familiar with the philo sling?No.
Do you know how to see what civs we are playing against before we meet them?No.
Does any of this help us decide how we should trade or what our first build is?I don't know.

I know this is a little long but I want Chukchi to think about why we do things. I would like other to chime in where I make mistakes or where you disagree.

Do you know how to see what civs we are playing against before we meet them?
No.Before you end your first turn if you hit F10 and click space race it will list all the civs you are playing against.

Does any of this help us decide how we should trade or what our first build is?
I don't know. OK well we know, based on F10, that 2 other civs have our techs. English and Iroquois have alphabet and Japanese and Egyptians have Ceremonial Burial. Hopefully we can meet some of the others because it will A. lower the price of what they know and B. give us the opportunity to trade their techs for ours. CB is not as valuable as alphabet so we should try to trade it. What techs are most valuable to us? Hint: Growth is power so what tech will help us grow the fastest?


Do you see anything that can make our capital grow faster?
The cows?
Exactly. So with our worker we need to get him to the cows. Since the capital Chukchi Huskyville :D will expand its borders in 10 turns we can move our worker to one of the bonus grasslands (BG) first. The worker can move (1 turn), mine the BG (6 turns) then road the BG (3 turns) and then move to the cow when our borders expand.
Question is which BG should the worker move to? I would say to our west because there are mountains. Mountains are good because we can climb that mountain and see further out once we finish a warrior.

On that note, there are two important builds IMO at the beginning of this game. Warrior (10 shields) and curraghs (15 shields). We want to meet as many neighbors and explore our surroundings as possible.

Our capital will produce 2 shields and produce 4 food (meaning the capital will grow in 10 turns just as our borders expand and one of the cows can be used. My thinking and something we should discuss is whether to build a warrior or curragh first?
I think we should build the curragh (7 turns) first because it will make exactly 15 shields when our mine finishes.

Then we can start a warrior which will finish in 3 turns because the capital will expand and the city will grow to pop 2 (with the new citizen landing on the cow) on the 10th turn with exactly 10 shields to finish the warrior. Does this make sense? Any comments from the team or lurkers?

Are you familiar with the philo sling?
No. The philo sling is where you research writing to Code of laws then philosophy and get republic as our free tech. This gambit may or may not be possible depending on who we meet and how we improve the economy. Trading alphabet early could risk this slingshot so we have to be careful how soon we trade alphabet to countries that don't know it. Once we get writing we should not trade it to anyone until we have nearly finish CoL and started on philo.

Getting out of despotism is very important because it will improve our economy for the commerce (science) and food (growth is penalized in despotism).

If there aren't any other thoughts on our start and my thinking we can get this thing rolling.

What techs are most valuable to us? Hint: Growth is power so what tech will help us grow the fastest?Pottery?
The philo sling is where you research writing to Code of laws then philosophy and get republic as our free tech.I used to do that.

Sound strategy IMO. Where will you set the research slider?

Pottery?Atta boy! You're absolutely correct. We should try to trade CB to one of the 3 civs that know it. Iroquois, English or Mongols. Hopefully we'll meet one of them or a neighbor of theirs who has it. The more we meet the lower the price. If a neighbor has it there's a good possibility we can wait on the trade and lower the price further.

BTW there's 3 other civs that have alpha btw. I forgot the Vikings.
I used to do that.:thumbsup:

Sound strategy IMO. Where will you set the research slider?
I would set research on min. for writing until our research rate increases. It won't help us to run 100% science since writing is still 50 turns. Running min. allows us to deficit research at 100% CoL and philo. There's no guarantee we will pull this gambit off so we should discuss our options as we meet new civs.

I'll go ahead and get us started. I'll post in an hour or so.

While Whomp is playing that... I thought I would ask a question: Is everybody on the team familiar with the things you need for the classic 4 turn settler factory? I think your capitol site has nice settler pump potential.

"I know this is a little long"

Worry not; no hurry here.

While Whomp is playing that... I thought I would ask a question: Is everybody on the team familiar with the things you need for the classic 4 turn settler factory? I think your capitol site has nice settler pump potential.

I never bothered to systemize such things so as to be able to spot them as you seem able, but I know how to create one.

I never bothered to systemize such things so as to be able to spot them as you seem able, but I know how to create one.Oh... if you had success at Diety level I'd be wiling to bet you've got your methods and systems. For Chukchi's benefit... have a go at explaining how you would set up a settler pump... either here, or in general.

Well, essentially, what you want to do is make your city able to grow every two turns and produce 30 shields every four turns, as this is what a settelr consumes when it is built. There are many, many ways to accomplish this. A Granary is all but required, first and foremost. It is very difficult to have a city growing every two turns without one. This means the city needs to average five food per turn, and, generally, this how it goes. It seems to I had situations at times where I had a city hitting ten food every two turns by some combination other than five food per turn (like seven one turn and four the next or some such), but we'll ignore that for now, especially it may be that I'm misremembering; plus it's a micromanaging nightmare (or dream, depending on your perspective). The real "trick" to a four-turn settler pump, to my recollection, is the need for an "excess" forest or mined hill or something which produces two or more shields. By some game mechanic or another which I don't remember, one can essentially receive "bonus" shields every time the city grows. What all this comes down to is that, generally speaking, you need a city to produce five food and six shields per turn at size four and five food and seven shields per turn at sive five. The computer doesn't like producing more than two food per turn, I believe, so when the city grows the new tile selected will be the low-food/high-shield tile (such as a forest) and the shields get counted and the food does not. So, in the first turn five food and six shields will be produced. In the second turn, the city will grow to size five and produce eight shields. At this point you will only be producing four food per turn since the forest only adds one food and the new citizen consumes two. You will need to switch over to a mined grassland or some other tile which produces the two food necessary to bring you back up to the "magic" number, five. Then the city will produce seven shields on the following turns, bringing us up to 21 total. On the last turn the city will grow to six, again make use of the forest, bring shield production to nine, complete the settler and go back to size four. Repeat until you've filled as much as land as you can manage and grown all cities to the point where you want them or don't consider the loss of population at the pump to be worth the benefit of adding the citizens to your other cities.

OK the turns are in...We are alone on our own continent and have met the Vikings.
Here's the story..
4000 BC Establish Chukchi Huskyville on the spot. Set research to writing at 20% science. Due in 50. We'll need a road to reduce it to 10%. Move the worker Pablocito to a BG and see this.

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/3982/opening1fi.jpg

In 3950 BC Pablocito starts a mine.

Nothing much happens till 3700 BC when our new curragh Floatie Thing finishes so I start the warrior. Earlier I checked the Military advisor and if you notice we are in the deep SE corner of the map. Since we're so far south I decide to send Floatie Thing north.

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/7445/location3oe.jpg

Pablocito finished the mine and started a road on the BG.

In 3650 BC Floatie Things continues north.

3600 BC Floatie Thing see a 2 tile sugar island.

3550 BC Floatie see a goody hut.

3500 Lots of things happen. Our population grows to 2. (I have the only governor I use on. "Emphasize production". Emphasize production makes sure the highest shield tile will be used on the IT when the pop grows) Our borders expand so the citizen moves went to the cow and it also reveals another wine. Our new warrior Taliesin finishes (start another curragh) and takes the new road to a hill. Pablocito finished his road and also moves to the cow. Floatie Thing see a narrow choke point to our north. We have 2 content citizens so no need to move the lux slider yet but since the road finished I can move science down to 10% from 20%.

3450 BC Taliesin locates 2 more wines! We shall be winemakers. Pablocito starts irrigation on the cow.

3400 BC Floatie Thing sees a border. Looks like Ragnar!

3350 BC Taliesin locates two whales that can be within a cities borders on culture expansion. :D Floatie comes up a little short of meeting Ragnar.

3300 BC Our new curragh Whomp's Delight finishes and we start another warrior. Whomp's Delight heads south. Floatie Thing says hello to Ragnar. Here's what he's willing to offer for CB.

http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/2623/ragnar30bo.jpg

I hold off on making this deal since we don't need a granary right away and if we meet someone else with pottery the price will drop.

3250 BC Pablocito begins roading the newly irrigated cow. Whomp's Delight sees tundra to our south. :rolleyes: Floatie Thing sees some jungles NE of the Vikings.

3200 BC Gain another citizen and he needs the lux to 10%. We go from 2 content and 1 unhappy to 1 happy, 1 content and 1 unhappy. Good enough.

3150 BC Our warrior named Narz finishes and start a settler. Fortify Narz in the capital and the lux is dropped back to 0%. Vikings gain BW. Hmm. I think they researched it but it could be the Ottomans. They are the only one with BW.

3100 BC Pablocito finishes his road and move him to the other cow.

3050 BC Start irrigation on the other cow. This will give us plenty of food for a 4 turn settler factory.

3000 BC Our pop grows to 4 so I need to move our lux slider to 10% again.
Taliesin gains map knowledge from the goody hut. That was a little risky since the probabilities are not great at this level to get goodies from a hut.

Summary
Here are some maps we should discuss for our city placement and where our boats have been. There is a sea lane that is NW of Chukchi Huskyville that we may want to send a suicide curragh through. Right now I'd see if Floatie Thing can go east if possible and Whomp's Delight can search the west side of the Vikings continent. If we want to trade for pottery it's still available. I don't think we should wait too long but as of right now the price for CB is the same as it was when we met. Team should discuss all these things.

Let's discuss this map. Where should we build our next city? What name? The purple and green might be a little off but sharing the deer and cow would be huge. I'd really like come coastal cities so we can build galleys and expand our territory. :evil:
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7596/dotmap5zf.jpg

Here's the city screen
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9829/cityscreen9vv.jpg

What's been explored on the northern continent
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1802/othercontinent1po.jpg

Bird's eye view of our continent
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/506/zoomedout15tm.jpg

Nice start. My Monarch level playing instincts say settle at the red dot next for wines and whales. But since we are alone it probably doesn't matter too much.

@Punkbass: Good explanation on the settler factory. Nice start. My Monarch level playing instincts say settle at the red dot next for wines and whales. But since we are alone it probably doesn't matter too much.Oh... all of the decisions matter. What are the pros and cons of settling that northwestern coast? Are there any sites that you see that Whomp didn't dotmap? Are there any sites you would adjust?

Most importantly, what is the empire's greatest need right now, and which site would contribute the most towards that need?

Most important is our lack of water...we'll need to bring water to the plains up north and it will likely have to come from the non-bg north of the capital.

My dotmap may need some slight adjustments. I do like the red dot but it may need to wait until we get water up there.

lurker's comment: very nice! :clap:

Well, on the whole, I would place cities much closer together. Since we're alone, we may as well pump Workers and Settlers. I would settler our first city two tiles W of the capital and share the cows for now. Get a Granary in the capital ASAP and have it go the settler route. Second city focus on Workers.

We could switch the settler build...possibly...to gran before the next turn if we make the trade with Ragnar.

As far as placement, I think a city spot between the two wines would be a good spot as well.
Typically, I run cities much closer too but since we're alone moving the cities to the coast can be very powerful commercially. I have a feeling we will need coastal cities so we can build galleys and gain some space on the Viking continent.

In fact, we may want to go straight to philo and take map making so we can start something with the Vikings before they get Berserks. I'm not sure with this small of a land mass we'll need republic very soon.

@Punkbass: Take a deep breath...and remember...this isn't Demi-God or Diety, it's Monarch. You can afford to loosen up the settlement pattern a bit. ;)

I think coastal cities could be powerful in this game... for the commerce that coastal sites bring. Who's up next?

Typically, I run cities much closer too but since we're alone moving the cities to the coast can be very powerful commercially.

Yes, but by the same virtue we can hold off on the single commerce bonus of being on the coast. Growth is by far most important aspect right now. A city on the hill can be built the turn after a settler completes and the extra food it can consume from the cow can be monumental right now. 20 turns of one extra food at this stage will allow, say, two extra workers very early on which will appreciate exponentially. 20 gold at this stage will not make a huge difference.

@Punkbass: Take a deep breath...and remember...this isn't Demi-God or Diety, it's Monarch. You can afford to loosen up the settlement pattern a bit. ;)

I think coastal cities could be powerful in this game... for the commerce that coastal sites bring. Who's up next?

It doesn't really matter to me what we decide to do. :)

PB2k I'm with you. Let's settle west.
Roster check:
Whomp--just went
Chukchi--up for 10 turns
Punkbass--on deck
Birdjaguar--
Mirc--
<Lurker player>--

PB2k I'm with you. Let's settle west.

Well, it's Chukchi's decision, really.

I kinda like the idea of getting ready to take on the vikings before they get berserkers.

Yeah, I like this idea too.

I'm not sure what I should do.

Play 10 turns the best way you can. If you build a settler, have them found a city on one of the colored dots posted earlier. Don't wory about the rest. :)

I'm not sure what I should do.

Don't worry about it. Just do whatever you think you should. It will be fine :)

Chukchi with the boats hopefully you can meet some new civs. Explore, explore, explore!

When the settler finishes put him on one of the dots or Punkbass' spot..any will work. For the next build you can start a barracks and if a better trade for pottery comes up because you've met another AI then you can switch the barracks to a granary. I'd do the trade if you meet another.

Right now you can trade CB and 14g for pottery with the vikings. The worker should road the cow after done irrigating then can move to the BG that north of the cow and mine and road it.

You'll do fine.

2950 BC: Discovered the Egyptian border, but can't contact them.
2900 BC: Continued exploring.
2850 BC: Chukchi Huskyville builds settler, but kept the production on settler because I'm not sure what else to build. Sending the settler to the red dot. The worker finished irrigating, and now building a road.
2800 BC: Continued exploring.
2750 BC: Continued exploring.
2710 BC: Founded a city called Puerto de Lobos. The worker finished the road and I moved it to the northeast square.
2670 BC: Made the worker build a mine. Discovered maybe the northernmost tip of the continent.
2630 BC: Sent Whomp's Delight to explore the southern part of the continent's coast.
2590 BC: Chukchi Huskyville builds another settler. Sending it to the fuchsia dot.
2550 BC: Settler arrived. Continued exploring with the curraghs.

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/4474/screenshot1gs.png

:clap: Very nice work CH!

With the Egyptians I wonder why it would open a diplo screen. :hmm: Sometimes when you hit "shift d" it will open diplo but I'm not sure that would've worked either. We may want to trade CB for pottery since the Egyptians already have CB.

Punkbass that tile north of the capital is a non-bg and we may want to irrigate it so we can get water to Puerto de Lobos.

Roster
Whomp--
Chukchi Husky--had a Egyptian sighting and got two settlers out!
Punkbass--up
Birdjaguar--on deck
Mirc--
<Lurker>--

I have an appointment shortly, but I expect I can have the turn done by 1pm my time, which is a little over two and a half hours from now. For general thoughts, now that we have two cities and settler, I'm inclined to quickly bang out a worker at the capital to keep up with development and then go for the granary and ultimately the settler-pump.

2550BC: Switched capital to Worker as well as switching over to work the Cow again since we only need three spt for the Workers.
2510BC: PdL completes Warrior, who heads for the capital. Switched to Worker.
"Seville" founded where the Settler stood. Training Warrior.
CFT moves South and meets Ottomans. We receive both WC and BW as well as 10g in return for Alphabet. They have Masonry as well, but want a lot for it; more than I felt comfortable trading without the team having a say. For all three techs they wanted nearly everything we have (tech, gold and gpt).
Warrior in capital unfortified and sent to explore South.
2470BC: Capital completes Worker who heads to bring Irrigation to PdL. Set to Colossus as pre-build for Granary.
Exploration continues.
2430BC: Exploration continues.
2390BC Exploration continues.
2350BC: Exploraion continues.
2310BC: Seville complete Warrior. Set to Worker.
PdL completes Worker. Tentatively set at Curragh. Worker sent to connect Wines to the capital.
CWD ostensibly spots English. Contact not yet made.
Home continent fully mapped.
2270BC: Exploration continues.
2230BC: Exploration continues.
2190BC: Exploration continues.
2150BC: Sev complete Worker. Left on Worker. As long as Cow continues to be shared it will be able to grow before the next Worker.
English contacted. Pottery and 10g acquired for WC. They also have IW, but a want a lot for it.
Capital switched to Granary.

Turn complete.

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/7589/husky2150bc1sp.png (http://imageshack.us)

For some general thoughts, the capital needs to have attention paid to it. With both Cows it produces six fpt. With one Cow it produces 4fpt. Thus it only needs both Cows two of every four turns, and the other two turns Sev can make use of the Cow. The capital should be able to complete the Granary in three turns. Currently 20 shields are needed to complete the Granary and it produces seven spt. This works out well, since we want the Granary built one turn before growth. As for PdL, I'm not certain what to have it build. We will want more Curraghs if we need to do suicide-runs, plus they're nice to have around for upgrades later on. We could build a Granary, since every city benefits from one, though that is a large investment for a city that hasn't much growth potential ATM. Since we're a Religious civ we might consider a Temple. It would be ready in a couple turns which would mean it would qualify for bonus culture fairly early in the game.

Anyways, onto the Bird.

Nice turnset Punkbass! We are in good shape with all the contacts we are gaining.

Puento de Lobos is a good spot for a temple since it will bring in the two whales. The other alternative is barracks.

We could put a city in directly south to the hill that could use that cow and become a nice worker pump with 2 mined BGs and a cow.

I have a feeling we are going to get a tribute request soon.

Roster check:

Whomp--
Chukchi Husky--had a Egyptian sighting and got two settlers out!
Punkbass--picked up some techs and got more contacts
Birdjaguar--up
Mirc-- on deck
<Lurker>--Who is it?

Wow! You guys really got off to a fast start! I work one honest day, and two turnsets ripped by! :dubious: Two good turnsets too, from what I gather.

@punkbass: Good discussion of tile sharing. Irrigating that second cow sort of messes up a 4-turn settler pump that runs on auto-pilot... but sharing those cows could be powerful.

For what it's worth... I concur with punkbass and Whomp on a Temple for Wolfs' Port. But don't any of you tell Bede I said that. Capturing those two whales will be nice while you invest worker turn further north. Treat the plains/wines as a roaded BG, and forget about it for now... concentrate on pushing the irrigation northward... come back and irrigate PdL later.

A note on Granaries: I would not bother with them unless it's in a town that you will use to pump a lot of workers. The capitol is the only town that can grow past size 6 without an aqueduct...

If the team would like, I could do a little dotmapping. I think I see an interior site that has real unit factory potential... and ... I think I'd like to see what things look like with one of Whomps dots shifted a tile...

A dotmap would be nice Scout!

The irrigated cow was my fault.
I guess I thought we'd share the bonus food with another city but it will add a little mm'ing. :blush:

Here goes nothing.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/DOTMAP_for_Husky01.jpg

I sized this down a bit to make it browser friendly. I hope you can all make it out okay. The pattern is a pretty basic CxxC build. I find it helpful sometimes to outline the 9 tiles that would be claimed by the initial settlement. Some points: Don't take this as "gospel". These are just my suggestions. There is only one site that is not on the coast. I will come back to that one. To the south there are two fishing villages that could share a game tile. To the Southwest I moved one of Whomp's dots to a hill. I think the team should consider settling on food-poor tiles, and conserve your grassland. To the southeast is a site that appears removed from the fish. A capitol border expansion will eventually claim that fish. All of the sites on the northern peninsual are "canal" sites. The northern-most one sacrifices a BG... as well as opportunities to go whaling... but I thought the hilltop defensive bonus might be an advantage. Back to that interior site: A town on that hill could work 3 Bonus Grassland tiles without robbing any from the Capitol. Add 2 hills to that, and you've got yourself a 5 Pop unit factory. Later in the game you can irrigate and rail those BG tiles and let the city grow... but a pop5 unit factory will be helpful enough in the early game.

I got it and will try to complete the turns tonight.

@scout, wouldn't it be better to settle on ragnor's continent before sugar island?

@scout, wouldn't it be better to settle on ragnor's continent before sugar island?I like that idea.

PB's file downloads as corrupted or invalid. I will pm him to post it again, maybe unzipped this time.

move the northern most city one NW to pull the whales and forget about island city. go settle ragnor land

@ CH - that city name was sweet for this game :thumbsup:

BirdJ--I was able to load the save. Did you put it in the right folder?

BTW I think English island will be a future conquest as well. This is really panning out like a arch map.

BirdJ--I was able to load the save. Did you put it in the right folder?
I got my corrupted file message when I tried to unzip the download on my desk top. I downloaded it several times. Can you post your version?

How about this one?

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Husky2150_BCtoBJ.SAV)

That downloaded as a civ3 save file. Should work. I'll try it shortly.

Do we want to trade warrior code for pottery with Liz? I normally would. She didn't want warrior code and 100 gold for iron working though.

Bede taught me these tenets when making trades and I use it religiously.

The decision making process:
1. Can I afford it?
2. Do I need it?
3. Can it be traded profitably?

If only 1 of these 3 qualifies then it's a bad trade. If it's 2 of 3 it's acceptable and if it's 3 of 3 it's excellent.

I think the trade sounds reasonable but can we trade it around? In fact, what does everyone have right now?

Ottomans have masonry, potterym wheel and mysticism and need nothing of ours
Vikings will give us pottery and 30 gold for CB; I would take that.

I thought PB already traded for Pottery from his turnlog.

Anyhow, on my turns the Vikings offered pottery for CB and 14. That means they are likely researching CB. I would make the trade with the Vikings due to this. I thought in PB's

Once we get writing we should be in good shape.

I took it, writing in one turn; what's next? Philo slingshot?

run with the slinger and use MM for the freebie

I lost track of the turns so I stopped at 1750 BC.
Not much going on.
1990: Curraugh and worker finished, I started two temples so we'll ge expansion and add wine and whales. Liz started colossus. I started a road to the north for future settlers to use, feel free to redirect them to a more useful purpose.

I posted about the trade with the vikings and we now have writing and are researching philosophy. Ottomans are leading in tech. I did not attempt to trade writing. I would give ourselves a few turns to maximize the chance of getting to philosophy first before I offer it around.

I adjusted the sliders so Philo wouldn't take 50 turns. It's now 16 turns.

Science is at 70%
Culture at 10 (to keep capital happy)
GPT is at +3

I think we need settlers from our capital next. I would produce a bunch and get our island populated and start on the viking continent. Unless we start suicide runs with the boats, they have pretty much run their course for a while. We now have three.

So I'm next? Got it.

I thought PB already traded for Pottery from his turnlog.

:lol: So did I. I just checked the save on my computer and I do not yet have Pottery on it. Looking back, I can only imagine the turn ended, I saved it and made some notes and then forgetfully went and made the trade without saving again and then took screenshot, since the capital is clearly building a Granary in my pic.

I lost track of the turns so I stopped at 1750 BC.
Not much going on.

Good guessing; IIRC 1750BC is exactly turn 50. So you know, you can check the turn number in the F8 screen.

Good stuff BirdJ! I think we should be able to trade away writing for all the other techs when the time comes.
The settler pump looks to be ready to crank 'em out now.

My guess is we could send one suicide curragh/galley through a sea lane that's about 7 or 8 tiles north of the capital.

Chukchi have you ever used this technique?

Good stuff BirdJ! I think we should be able to trade away writing for all the other techs when the time comes.
The settler pump looks to be ready to crank 'em out now.

My guess is we could send one suicide curragh/galley through a sea lane that's about 7 or 8 tiles north of the capital.

Chukchi have you ever used this technique?I never used it.

Does everyone have MapStat? Once you get to more than 3 cities (more than 1 for me) it's hard to make sure that everyone is happy enough nor to riot. If you don't have it, you can download it here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=52902). There is also CivAssist II (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=118540)that is nice, but I have had trouble getting the alerts to actually alert me.

I never used it.
OK well then this will be a good exercise for you. There's risk but potentially high rewards by using this technique.

The idea is to meet other civs by moving your curragh (or galley) across treacherous sea and ocean squares. There's about a 50/50 chance the boat will sink in these deep waters (I think seafaring has slightly better chances).
I've learned that if you send two boats together you actually increase the odds slightly since there's a chance one of them will survive the RNG God.

If the ship makes it through it will give us a contact for trading that the others will not have till they get caravels or galleons. That's a long, long time away. We already know the Vikings, English and Ottomans. We have the babylonians, Egpytians, Japanese and Iroquois to still meet! That's a lot of trading partners if we can meet them all.

Having these contacts will increase our opportunities for a 2 fer or 3 fer tech trade. Have you ever traded 2 or 3 techs for 1?

Can someone else take it this time? I'll play, but I don't think I'll have time today....
My mother is more exagerated than any mother I've heard or read about. I know what I'm saying... :mad:

CH, I didn't know you made city graphics!

OK we have some lurker turns available. Anyone out there who wants to pick this up? I will pick up later tonight 8 pm CST if I don't see a "got it"
Whomp--On deck
Chukchi--Got two settlers out!
Punkbass--picked up some techs and got more contacts
Birdjaguar--Made the trades and got the pump worker
Mirc-- needs a skip.
<Lurker player>--UP

I might get it... What version are you playing on?

Ehh...sorry it C3C Cody the...well you know. You're one of my kind. Hehe.

I can't pick up tonight but will get it for sure tomorrow if a lurker doesn't grab it first.

Ill take it, take this as a got it.

Im guessing these are the instructions?
I think we need settlers from our capital next. I would produce a bunch and get our island populated and start on the viking continent. Unless we start suicide runs with the boats, they have pretty much run their course for a while. We now have three.

Also, how many turns do I play?

I just checked the save, are we supposed to finish the Colossus?:cool:

Ill take it, take this as a got it.

Im guessing these are the instructions?


Also, how many turns do I play?10 turns. Well following my ideas may lead us all stray. ;) but we do need some settlers. I would crank them out for your turns and work the land as needed. I'm not sure we had decided what tech will be our free one if we get philo first. I assume republic.

I just checked the save, are we supposed to finish the Colossus?

I didn't see any references to changing anywhere, so unless someone else chimes in or a better opportunity crops up, I'd let it go to completion.

I didn't see any references to changing anywhere, so unless someone else chimes in or a better opportunity crops up, I'd let it go to completion.

Well then, it seems my turns are going to be building the Colussus and finishing the temples.:D Also, what happened to the dotmap that scoutsout uploaded? Its now a box with a red X.:sad:

Also, will try to play and post turns this afternoon after school.:ack:

Ansar I think the confusion of the Colossus happened when Punkbass was using it as a pre-build, traded for pottery and switched it to a gran but unfortunately that wasn't the save that was posted and it may not have been clear to Birdjaguar that was what he did.

The colossus may help us in the long run since we have so few commerce squares.

You won't be able to sling to republic though because we don't have CoL. I would suggest taking map making so we can get some harbors and galleys rolling.

The Vikings already have writing so it may make sense to trade the Ottomans at some point in your turnset for their techs. It would be nice to learn where the iron and horses are.

On the temples, you may be able to pop rush the one at Puerto de Lobos. Do we need the other one?

think i might start watching this game

I dont think the temple at seville is necessary. I will switch it to a settler.

preturn-switch Seville to settler.

1725- Curragh floatie thingy finds a two-tile swamp island.Whomps delight follows Curragh floatie thingy. Traded Elizabeth Writing for Iron Working + Wheel + 10 gold. Also, trade Writing + 61 gold for Masonry and Mysticism.

1700- S.S Stupidity finds a tribe of Bulgar barbarians.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Husky_1.JPG

ibt- Seville finishes building its settler, Seville is at size 1, so begin a temple.

1675- Not much. Settler heads for hills south of Chucki Huskyville.

ibt-Curragh floatie thingy survives the Ocean trip!

1650-Curragh floatie thingy goes further in ocean. PdL workers move around to irrigate more plains.

1625-PdL workers start irrigating. Raise lux slider to 20% because Chukchi Huskyville would riot next turn.

1600-Toledo settled. Pablocito and Worker finish roading to Toledo. Toledo starts on a temple.

ibt- http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Husky_2.JPG

1575-Boats keep exploring the waters. Colossus in 2. Lower lux slider to 10% thanks to war happiness. Increase science by 10% so Philosophy in 8 at +2gpt.

ibt- Curragh floatie thingy survives, but the other curragh doesent.:sad:

1550- Curragh floatie thingy keeps exploring it sees whales.

ibt- the Colussus finishes in Chukchi Huskyville.:dance:

1525- Curragh Whomp's Delight sinks. Chucki Huskyville begins a settler.

1500- :sleep:

Extra Screenies:

Say "Hola!" to Japan...:scan:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Husky_3.JPG

Our only Iron...:sad:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Husky_4.JPG

@ ansar, did Ragnor declare when you said no?

Positive, Admiral. In other words, yes.;)

Positive or affirmative? :hmm: Nice turnset Frogman!

I got it.

@AK: Did you miss the bit about "war happiness"?

@Whomp: With that Iron not yet connected.... Perhaps a "warriors-to-swords" gambit would be effective here?

Did everyone drop off the face of the earth?

@Whomp: Didn't you post a 'got it'? Get in gear buddy! :whipped:

This looks really weird with the swapped avatars...

I did. A little RL (and another momentous event :evil: ) hit me but I will play it today!

Scoutsout and Whomp... Woah, that was really confusing...

Scoutsout and Whomp... Woah, that was really confusing...
I love that day of the year :)

I'm sorry everyone. My DSL line went haywire this weekend. If someone else can pick it up that would probably be best. I'm writing this from a hotspot and I'm not sure when DSL will be back. :sad:

Pre-turn: Change the temples to barracks and Puerto to a curragh. I see we lost all our curraghs and the Japanese west of the Ottomans. We'll need to say hi.

1475 zip

1450 Chukchi finishes a settler and starts another. Borders expand at Puerto and we get both whales. I dig whales. :D Science dropped to 30% with philo due next.

1425 Philo comes and I request map making for the next tech. We get mapmaking for free!! Make this trade with the Ottomans.

http://img325.imageshack.us/img325/8858/ottos5uq.jpg

Start research at max on maths. The AI tends to avoid this tech and the Ottos are scientific so I'd guess they won't go that direction.

1400 English start the pyramids. :evil: That would be nice. They have horses too. Make this deal with the Ottos...

http://img325.imageshack.us/img325/5814/ottos27sw.jpg

1375 Make peace for 20g not 22g with Ragnar.

http://img325.imageshack.us/img325/333/vikepeace6ps.jpg

1350 Chukchi finishes the settler and Seville gets barracks and starts on warriors. Warriors make the most sense right now for all our builds. They can be upgraded to swordsmen when we get about 7-9 vet warriors and hook up the iron. Then we can make a bunch of boats and go take it to someone.

1325 Establish Punkbass Canal.

1300 Puerto finishes the galley and runs through Punkbass Canal. Seville finishes a vet warrior and starts another. Ottomans get CoL. We shoudl be able to trade this when we finish maths.

1275 Our new galley sees a barb galley. Runs into a sea square. Birdjaguar Hill is established.

1250 The galley survives and hits new land! Drop science to 50% and lux increased to 10%.

Summary
The captial can switch off one of the cows every other turn with Seville once the granary finishes in 3. Seville only needs 5 shields to make vet warriors so make sure it has at least 5 shields. There's a trade opportunity this coming turn with the Ottomans for CoL in exchange for maths. The English and Vikings are way behind in techs. We still need to get a boat up to the Japanese to say hello. The current boat is looking for some others. Looking good everyone. Sorry for the delay.

http://img325.imageshack.us/img325/6355/chukchi5bg.jpg

Moving again that's great. CH up next?

Yes he is.
Here's a roster check.
Whomp--just played
Chukchi--UP
Punkbass--On deck
Birdjaguar--
Mirc-- .
<Lurker player>--

1225 BC: Discovered mathematics, researching Construction. The Ottomans already have mathematics. Puerto de Lobos finishes a worker. Not sure what to put production on so I put it on Barracks. Moved the worker onto the empty plains tile. Another worker finished a road so I made him dig a mine. Moved the warrior into Chukchi Huskyville and fortified him. Moving other workers onto empty grassland tiles.

1200 BC: Seville finishes warrior, and I keep production on warrior. The Vikings are building The Great Lighthouse. Made the workers work.

1175 BC: Chukchi Huskyville finishes granary, set production on barracks. Toledo builds barracks, production on warrior.

1150 BC: Punkbass Canal builds worker, put production on barracks. Moved the worker onto the iron hill.

1125 BC: A galley sunk. Got the worker building a road on the hill.

1100 BC: Toledo finished warrior, keeping production on warrior.

1075 BC: Chukchi Huskyvile builds barracks, put production on galley.

1050 BC: Civil disorder in Seville, moved luxuaries up to 20%.

1025 BC: Osman wants 41 gold. Wasn't really sure what to do, so declined, and the Ottomans declared war. Moved another worker onto the iron hill.

1000 BC: Chukchi Huskyville builds a galley, kept production on galley. With the other worker, the road on the iron hill is completed. 30 gold short on upgrading the warriors to swordsmen.

975 BC: All towns which complete Warriors are now switched to Swordsmen.
Lands continue to be developed.

950 BC: PdL complete Barracks. Begins Swordsmen.
Lands continue to be developed.

925 BC: Capital continues to churn out the Galleys. Exploration commences.

900 BC: Galley attacked by Barbs, we win. Sent back to capital for repairs.

875 BC: Galley begins reparations.

850 BC: Three Galleys now set out to explore together.

825 BC: Exploration etc continued.

800 BC: Attacked by Barbs again. Damaged vessel sent to PBC for repairs.

775 BC: Shuffle Galleys around, etc :)

750 BC: Much the same.

Nice work. Let's try and get some more settlers to fill the island.
Whomp--Computer issues on home pc. :sad: I'll keep you posted.
Chukchi--
Punkbass--
Birdjaguar--UP
Mirc-- On deck
<Lurker player>--

Got it. I will try to get played tonight.

730 BC Started settlers in Huskieville
710 Kept building swords in most places
690
670
650 Built Dog Town in NW at wine; Attacked bards in south
630 Attacked barbs in north and south; sent new settler to north end of island; learned construction started on Polytheism
610 Captured both barb villages took total of 50 gold, no losses to swords
590 Started library in BJ Hills
570
550 settler moving north to build at far end so upon expansion of city we might get a square across the straits.

No diplomacy this turn set.
Did start a galley to the east to explore
I may have started the Lighthouse, I forget. Switch if there is something better/more important


Questions:
How many swords are needed?
Who will we be attacking first?
When do we attack?
Do we need any spearmen for home defense?
Should we have a stock of settlers (2 or 3) ready to land and build in the invaded land?
Do we need to be building any "buildings" in our cities? If so, which ones?

Lurkers need screenies. ;)

I have some thoughts on Birdjag's questions but would be interested to hear what Chukchi thinks first. This will start a good discussion before Mirc or the lurker turns are played.

Just a little heads up...my hard drive needs to be replaced and is supposed to be delivered Tuesday or Wednesday. Grrrr...

I have some thoughts on Birdjag's questions but would be interested to hear what Chukchi thinks first. This will start a good discussion before Mirc or the lurker turns are played.Good point. I see some solid play from team members who seem to be new to Succession Games.

One of the great things about SGs is that players can learn from each other... and in doing so... usually play a much stronger game than the individual players could play by themselves.

Another thing that is great about SGs... they force you to do "situational analysis"... when you get the save, you get a game that hasn't been played "the way you would play it". Sometimes you see some things in the setup that you wouldn't have done... but you learn something powerful from it...

I think it'd be a great idea if everyone on the team took a look at the current save and answered BirdJaguar's questions. I'll even go through it in the morning myself, if you want.

One of the great things about SGs is that players can learn from each other... and in doing so... usually play a much stronger game than the individual players could play by themselves.


If anyone doubts the value of a team in AW games, try them by yourself. No one to look over your shoulder to give you a sanity check. So you over look something and suffer.

This is especially true in later stages with long turns and no relieve. I am trying to slug through one with 31 civs and it is tedious.

Here is a screen shot of the end of my session.

The red dot is where I would build a city. Then if we were going after the English I would invade as per the yellow arrows. Two cities on the viking continent could support each other should the Vikings get ugly and with temples they would expand to provide a substantial land base for the future. They would also be a base to invade the rest of England.

@BirdJaguar: Thanks for the screenshots. :thumbsup:

Though I haven't looked at the save, it appears to be that a campaign against England might be more effective if you went straight after their core... supporting the campaign by crossing the strait east of Nottingham... Warwick can wait IMO.

@BirdJaguar: Thanks for the screenshots. :thumbsup:

Though I haven't looked at the save, it appears to be that a campaign against England might be more effective if you went straight after their core... supporting the campaign by crossing the strait east of Nottingham... Warwick can wait IMO.
You are probably correct if the goal is just to take out England without regard to anything else. I was looking longer term to the Vikings. Getting two cities on their continent early (and while at peace) will make conquering them easier because we will have a stronger base of operations to build up forces. Also if the war against England were to go badly, then having Warwick and another city somewhat protected from direct land attack might minimize the downside risk. I see it as a kind of hedge.

By going for Hastings second we can pick up the incense and deprive England of it should the war be a long one and weariness set in.

I will play tomorrow (actually later today, since it's 00:23 here).

BTW, I'm not very sure, but I would capture Warwick first, and then go for Hastings.

Any suggestions on these?

How many swords are needed before we attack somebody?
Who will we be attacking first?
Where do we attack?
Do we need any spearmen for home defense?
Should we have a stock of settlers (2 or 3) ready to land and build in the invaded land?
Do we need to be building any "buildings" in our cities? If so, which ones?

It depends.

I don't know how many swords we need.
It depends, I think England, but if the Vikings are an easier target then we should go for them.
I think we should attack at Warwick (if we decide to attack the English).
I don't think we need spears. I've rarely seen the AI transporting troops over seas to attack you below Emperor. We could need 2 or 3 of them (one in each of the northern cities).
2 or 3 settlers would be nice, but I don't know if they are vital. I think we should wait for the war to finish and then settle on that land.
Buildings: I usually don't build something else than Barracks in early game, but I don't know...

Any suggestions on these?

How many swords are needed before we attack somebody?
Who will we be attacking first?
Where do we attack?
Do we need any spearmen for home defense?
Should we have a stock of settlers (2 or 3) ready to land and build in the invaded land?
Do we need to be building any "buildings" in our cities? If so, which ones?
Swords? 8-10 should be sufficient. If we attack straight for the core of England they are done. The critical piece to all this is their horses. We need horses the balance of the next two ages so we should grab them while we can. Horsemen are much easier to beat in the AI's hands than knights.

No to spearmen. Archers are much more effective cheap build due to their bombard and upgrade path. As well, swords carry the same defense and superior offensive capabilities compared to spears so I see no need for spears.

I would like to have a least one settler overseas to establish a foothold. Others can follow to gain the rest of the continent. I would keep the English cities and starve the population with either taxmen or scientists till we've whittled down the foreign population to 1. I would keep our battleforce out of the cities the turn after they've been taken. That way if they flip we can reconquer them. Did they get the pyramids?

The core of Viking land should be #2 . Both the Vikings and English were significantly behind in tech and the real threat will be the Ottomans. Sipahis are nasty and they are keeping pace techwise. On that note we need to meet the Japanese because I'd like them to use their GA with samurais versus the Ottomans.

A few other notes...

What is our research strategy? Will we research republic?

If you can't think of what to build how about workers? We probably need more. I don't think mining or roading hills is in our best interest until our cities are bigger and we don't have the despotism penalty. We need to develop and maximize food #1. Growth is power. I'm with Mirc on other builds. Temples are a drain on the economy and will be the rest of the game. If it's not a barracks city building units then I'd focus on either settlers (if happiness is an issue) or a worker (if there's a happiness issue) or a galley or barracks. All of these will be needed.

No to spearmen. Archers are...I agree.and the real threat will be the Ottomans. Sipahis are nastyYes, they are, aren't they? :p
A few other notes...What is our research strategy? Will we research republic? I have my own thoughts on this... but i'll refrain.

Growth is power.Quoted for emphasis.

Temples are a drain on the economy and will be the rest of the game. Oh ... I'm tempted to make a smart-aleck comment here.

Seriously - Temples have their place in the game - but learning to break "builder habits" is the best way to get beyond Monarch. And many players get addicted to Temples. When examined on a cold "cost-benefit" basis, there are so many things that you can do with 60 shields that will do much more good for the empire.

If you guys have some serious happiness issues when you hit the middle ages, you might want to consider temples in powerhouse cities that could use a Cathedral.. .then sell off the temple. Aside from that... cheap culture in the conquered lands will help with border expansions...

...but the biggest advantage to being a Religious tribe is that you have limited Anarchy. How might you play that to advantage in this game? How might that affect your research path?

Temples = 2 swords.:p Unless you are religious, and you meant to pick religious for the temple reason. If you want cultural expansion, libraries are the way to go.:) Also, on the short anarchy, when I play as Celts, which is pretty much the only religious civ I play with, I tend to switch between Monarchy and Republic from time to time which really comes in handy.:cool:

then sell off the temple.

:hmm: This is very good information...thanks scoutsout!:goodjob:

Republic does sound like a good way to go, I mean, its monarch, nothing too rough happens...:scan:

I played. I'm way too tired to write a turn log, but here are the main events:

THE BAD NEWS:
The Ottomans disembarck a huge stack of Horseman (about 7) near the newly founded city in the north and 3 cities are in extreme danger since the horsemen can get to them in 2 turns. I HAVE to make peace, even if it costed me 100 gold. Since we can't declare war at less than 20 turns from the peace deal, I have to focus on attacking England instead of them. I would like to attack the Ottomans, but I can't :(.

THE GOOD NEWS: We founded a lot of new cities! We captured 2 English cities, destroyed Warwick and got a settler were Warwick used to be. We have a stack of 4 Swordsmen (IIRC) to attack the next city, and I estimate that we will conquer them easily.

PS: I tried to let the Ottomans capture that cities and then take them back, but we lose a lot of gold and they raze the cities so I can't get them back. I think it was a better decision to make peace and attack England instead. We could risk to lose most of the northern cities. Now we are much stronger, we got a lot of new cities, we are ready to take down a civ.

I will upload the file now.

Download (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Isabella_of_the_Spanish,_350_BC.SAV)

Nice work Mirc. Making peace was the right thing to do IMO. I don't think the cash was very important versus our objective of taking down England and settling those lands and getting horses.

Any lurkers out there want to take this baby for a spin?

I hope to have my hard drive installed this week so I might need a swap.

Whomp you may need to go to your start page and update to game conditions. I was trying to figure out if this was a variant or not, but I never did figure exactly what the story was.

So that could make it hard for any lurkers to jump in.

OK I updated on the first page vmxa. This is a regular emperor game but with a training aspect to it. Chukchi, in particular, has said that he has not beat chieftain so I'd like to engage him in discussions about the process of developing the empire.

I think your expertise would make for some fantastic lessons for the team.

Win condition has not been determined. I would leave that up to Chukchi but I'd think either a domination or space win is our mostly likely win condition.

First one of the confusing things was the level. You have mentioned Monarch all over the place, but the first page says Emperor. I loaded it up and it is Monarch. So that could open the door for other Luckers.

I am real glad to see see that Dog Town was founded on the grapes, rather than over on the forest. I would not mind the forest, as long as it was chopped first. For your Chuckchi, that 10 shields is useful so early in the game and I hate to lose it.

For my money, I would have like to seen 2 or even 3 of the 8 galleys blocking the coastal path to your contient from Oshman and the Vikes. They could not come to attack without risking being sunk and you may not have to face 7 horses or whatever it was.

If you sunk 1 or 2 ships, you would not be looking to make peace and giving up the 100g and war happiness.

I simply loathe paying off below DG, which sort of leads to the quesion raised by Birdjaguar.

Not to answer directly, but 8 galleys and 11 swords is not a ratio I would settle for.

I am have not looked at the game all that close, but one question comes to mind. What is the value of horse before Astronomy? I see sea tiles between them and us, so I would think we cannot import them without astro?

Yes we may get +1 move and be able to travel, but I am not sure if that applies to trades and imports. I confess I do not play seafaring civs, so I am not positive. If that is the case we took a beating going to England first.

In any event we need workers over there to connect the towns to a harbor town, once one is either captured or build.

I agree with all the comments about no spears, so why are they being build in many towns? I would not build them at this level, but at least let not do it without a barracks.

Asturias, forgive any misspelled names. It is empty and we have horsemen next to it. We have over 500 gold, so it could cost us some cash if they decide to help themself.

So off I go for 10. It is close to dinner here, so I may not finish tonight.

One thing that is often useful to the next turn player is at least a summary of what needs to be attended to. I am looking at some settlers, but I do not know where they are headed.

I see some boats with one unit, but no mention of the plan. Also many vet warriors are in Seville and lots of cash on hand, any reason a few were not upgraded? Are we saving for some defict research or something?

These and other info are nice to have, especially if you want a lurker to pick up a turnset. Otherwise they will go off the cliff on their own, so off I go. :D

One thing that is often useful to the next turn player is at least a summary of what needs to be attended to. I am looking at some settlers, but I do not know where they are headed.

I see some boats with one unit, but no mention of the plan. Also many vet warriors are in Seville and lots of cash on hand, any reason a few were not upgraded? Are we saving for some defict research or something?

These and other info are nice to have, especially if you want a lurker to pick up a turnset. Otherwise they will go off the cliff on their own, so off I go. :D
We have no plan. Planning is a good thing. Part of this game is to help CH learn to play and toplan, but I think he is reluctant to make decisions beyond his own turn set. Like most of us, he may not want to be shown to have made bad or wrong choices. The planning question is how can we build a plan that encourages CH to contribute without the implied blame is things go badly?

One way might be a multiple choice for each major decison, with each choice being a reasoned one that does make sense. Start broad and narrow down.

1. Victory condition to try for: List best 2
2. Next two reseach choices to support that goal:
3. Setter strategy
4. War strategy
5. Government choice

Then let CH chart the path he likes best. Every complete turn set or two we could reevaluate the plan.

EDIT: #5 added. ;)

Birdjag and vxma make good points, both of which I agree with. Earlier in the game, IIRC, there were lots of dotmaps up and discussions about what might be best and why. IMHO, go back to that. I'll add a number 5 to Birdjag's list:
Government choice?

Good idea Birdjag.
I will take blame for not being more verbal in this game but it's been tough without being able to look at a save. The good news is even an idiot like me can install a hard drive (tonight). Tomorrow I hope to get the recovery disk and civ reinstalled. :D

Ok, I finished 10, but I am tried so I hope I did not fall asleep on the switch. I will try to incorporate that idea after this.

So for now I will just put up the log and the save . Tomorrow we can make some comments. I did make an attempt to impart my thinking.

Here is the save.

Preflight:

I am not sure what is the plan for some of these town such as Logrono. It needs to grow and only has 2 grass tiles and the rest hills, so I switch to a harbor. I have no interest in a regular warrior at this point.

Birdjaguar Hills is another one. It is size 4 and no growth. I would have prefered a harbor and then some culture to get more coastal tiles in play. Lib or 1/2 price temple.

This town also suffers form a lack of workers and roads. Losing commerce and mobility. We have already been attacked once and took a loss. We have no fast movers and may not have any for sometime, if we cannot import the horses. So getting a road net up is important IMO.

One way to defeat the sea issue, if it is an issue is to get a harbor up in Palma. As long as we are not blockaded along that contients coast, we could do it.

Seville is +5 food and cannot grow. I switch to aqua to get it over to a city. If we mine the grapes, we can use it instead of the cow. I would consider minning the cow soon for shields.

Not real important since we lack workers for more important task anyway.

Dog Town, not sure on this one. It is making an archer with no barracks, that is not my style, but I am not sure what else to do with it. I would like to get a worker out of it, but it is growing to slow.

My perspective on archers and this game is they will not be of much use. A regular archer cannot attack much other than a warrior and cannot defend against anything. It has bombardment, but we should have little use for that and probably it would not be where you needed, when you needed anyway.

They can be loss leaders though. That is I would attack in the hopes of taking one HP off of a unit that could be dangerous to attack, like an elite sword or spear. We have a lot of forest in this town to chop for structures, if we had the workers.

Valladolid switch to worker.
Asturias switch to worker.
Upgrade two swords and will send them to those two far away towns.

Things I do not know about as no log was given, that would be nice to know. Have you seen any boats form England or other civs around that island? I mean can I send those galleys out to the choke by the top of our contient or do I need them to defend landings on English shores?

We need only gain .5 beakers per turn to shave off a turn. This will happen with a few roads. Make one more upgrades in Seville for the dark area. We are going to get uprisings soon, if they already have not occurred.

I seen Hastings is going to riot, so both set both to specialist. Hope I did not miss anything.

IBT:

Too late uprisings near Toledo. Now here is the one time I would make a spear. The reason I do not need to normally is I would have had sentries out there before the next age was hit and triggers an out break. Not to mention we could have gotten some gold for camps and some promotions.

English unit attacks damaged sword, but loses and we are elite (1-0).

330BC:

Three swords attack Coventry and go (2-1) [3-1} worker in town to road to Hastings. worker in Hasting to road towards Nottingham. Both set to temples so we can expand and fill the island.

Move redline sword into York and set to worker for now.

Load sword and settler to galley and send both to England and met one there. Send one galley back to join one by Dog Town. These will move north to block. Put redline one in Dog to heal.

Found two hills with a mine, each had one worker making a road? This is next to Punkbass (Hi PunkBass, do I know you from Poly and MZO?) and no one is working either and we have a mine with a road not worked there as well? I suspect these workers could have done something more useful. I stopped the one with 4 turns left.

Switch Toledo back to spear given the uprising. Sent a scout back as well. Wish we had a horse to take a peek.

BTW I use NoPatrol so the barbs will not sit out there and wait. Send two swords from Seville to Bird and one to Toldeo. Send back one warrior from Bird to Seville.

Sending one of the settlers toward the tundra to claim some of it. I do not mind a camp now and then, but I do not want to see 16 or more barb horses trying to pillage.

One more sword to those empty towns, not the two I orginally planned.
Currency drops to 12 turns from 15. Seville wasting food, can't do anything about it right now.

310BC:
PDL finsihes sword, start an aqua. Pic1 to see the view of Punkbass Canal. I would normally irrigate the plains and I will here as well, but this town will not need that tile. It is size 4 and making 10 food. So at size 6 it needs only 12. We can get two more from the hills being worked my the two new citizens, when they show up.
The plains can be given to the next town or we can take one of the plains in use and give it to PDL.

(I see I forgot to do that so please do it soon. It won't matter right now.)

York needs to get specialist. York and Coventry still resisting.
I am spending much of your money to upgrade, sorry. Two more in Toledo. Going to send out a force to find the barbs (3 units) as the settler is arriving.

IBT
The queen wants peace and will give CoL. I decline as I want the harbor of Nottingham.

Barbs are moving all over that end of the map, barb boats as well.

290BC:
Glad I refused as England finished the Pyrimids in London and will now probably do something not smart like start a settler.

Found Cordoba and start a worker.

IBT
England did send out a galley. Barbs approach towns. Bird finishes Lib and starts a harbor.
Asturias starts temple.

270BC:

Ok, all home towns are at least covered with one unit. Kill one barb horse and find 3 more. Ugh kill another and find 3 more barb horses. Bird could be exposed after this turn, if they all attack. Upgrade another sword to send to Bird next turn.

Send the galleys with the sword from England to Palma to prevent any ugly tricks from the Queen.
Three swords on mountains over Nottingham, now at size 3.

I sure wish I had seen the galley in the capitol. I may have been able to send it to the end to keep fog busted and prevent barbs. Sorry my bad.
I have to use a joker in Bird until I get an MP there.

Count of barbs so far is 11-0 and 2 boats sunk 13-0. Total of either 22-1 or 22-2. Anyway too many fight to only get two elites.

IBT
England drops a unit off at Palma, yeah I knew it. 1 barb dies attacking.

250BC:
Sunk a barb at Logrono, barely. In for repairs.
Other galley finds more barbs no camp though.
Sword kills archer at Palma. (1-0) [4-1]
Kill a barb. Two swords damaged, will cover for now.
Kill spear at Nottingham. (2-0) [5-1]

IBT
kill barb
Toledo finsihes, start worker.
Dog finished, starts a harbor.
Cap finsih, start sword.

230BC:
workers finish at Log, one mines the other to road hill towards cap. No rush on mine as it will not be used before it is finished with one worker.

More barbs and found the camp.
Sink barb galley.
Kill two spears at Nottingham, it is size 2 now. (4-0) [7-1]

Need more swords in England, but I have to suppress thos barbs. All attackers are injured on both fronts.
Bought worker from Ottoman. I just always buy them in the AA, if they come up. Not so much that it hurts the AI, and it does, but over time that slave will be a bargain.

IBT
two barbs die.

210BC:
Kill 2 barbs.
Kill 2 spears and capture Nottingham, start temple. (2-0) [9-1]
I just realized I lost a sword a few turns back, but forgot to record it. I am not sure about this one so will record as a loss. [9-2] I am too lazy to try to figure out how many units where there to start.
Bird expands borders.
Looks like 3 barbs and the camp left now, should be done soon.
English galley still around, but I am not going to attack it. When they go, so will it. If they get out with a settler, that is fine.

Need to get some more swords over and heal what we have to get to London. The horses cannot be ours while it stands.

IBT
nada3

190BC:
kill a barb.

IBT
kill a barb.
cap start settler. We need two to fill in the tundra.
Toledo starts sword.
PunkBass starts sword.

170BC:
zip.

IBT
zip

150BC:
Found Teruel, start harbor.
Load a sword and one more arrive next turn for England (in Dog Town).
Tech in two turns.
Only got one promotion out of all those barbs. Only one in England, not my fair share.

Three swords going towards London. Two for Cantebury. Not enough to do the job, but maybe we can scare London or cut off food to drop it to size 6 before the others arrive.
I was afraid to chop York.

Once the road finishes from Hasting to Cordoba, then get Nottingham connected to it and see if that give us the lux.

Sorry for the lack of pics, but I can barely keep my eyes open.

Here is the save after I went ahead and moved the PunkBass to free up that irrigated plains near PDL. This way it will use it and get a shield, when it grows.

Hi PunkBass, do I know you from Poly and MZO?

:wavey: Yes. :) Well, 'poly, anyway. I used to participate in the AU, though I was never one to post much in the way of DARs. I didn't know you posted at MZO. Do you use a different name there?

No I don't post there, but I have looked in a few times. I recoqnized your avatar as well.

I don't have the game up right now and I am going out to play some pool, but will try to finish off a few more thoughts when I get back.

Just in case anyone plays before then. I was going to look at the map to see if we can explore some more now. A galley is in the north of the contient that can be sent out and one healing in Nottignham as I recall. We could use some more contacts.

You have to forgive me for not sending them out, but I play a lot of AW and sometimes forget it is safe to make contacts.

The native worker I was going to use to chop, probably could instead go to road Nottingham. I was not sure it was the best idea, since I figured the harbor would not allow importation for us. But in case it does, that would make sense. If I knew for sure, I would have had the slaves chop and then road.

This is because if we have get a harbor in Palma, we have plenty of time to get connected to Nottingham.

One thing I was planning was to have the 2 swords going at Canteberry to hopefully draw out a unit from London as it will be threatened first. I would expect London to have at least 4 units and pop rush additional ones.

So we need at least 5 or 6 swords or a long battle. Either is fine, but it would be nice to get a unit or two in the open. Also get them to lose their city defense, if they have no wall behind it.

We may need another settler there to fill the land in. What do you all think about selling or keeping any temples in English lands? I tend to put in temples in all foreign towns and then sell them after they pop the borders.

Since it is so early, they could get the double culture. Not sure if that is of value at Monarch though. There land is smaller than ours, but it is much greener.

Sorry about the spear, it turns out to have been a false alarm. Maybe we should put him in the galley there and send it to Palma to discourage any funny business there.

Thanks vmxa, I got a lot of information from you in this thread!

Great turns vmxa. Even though I can't see the save or a picture you've brought great clarity to the situation.

The english finishing the pyramids is a huge benefit and we should continue this war till the english are finished. By finishing off the english it will also help the research rate and give us horses. Getting some fast units will also be helpful in our skirmishing.

A few things about mm'ing...
vmxa mentioned working hills. Does everyone understand why developing hills are not a big benefit at this point in the game?
Contacts? The Japanese are there for the taking so let's meet them. I haven't seen a picture but last time I had the save we found another landmass. What's the situation to the NE of the capital?
Currency is a very valuable tech. What are our plans for this? What should we research next?
What about pop rushing foreigners? Is that a worthwhile thing to do?

Regarding my situation...the hard drive is installed and hopefully the recovery disk will be in hand today to reinstall my OS. I will let you all know tonight.

Hope you have what you need to get back in action Whomp. I see one of my notes was slightly wrong. I thought I had a native worker in England, but it is a slave.

I also just noticed we did not have a harbor on the mainland, so no way to import yet. That will be solved in 2 turns.

So we have yet to met Japan and we see them. Did we not see a unit at that time or did we just not contact them? Sometimes, if you expose a unit, you have to contact them right away or risk losing contact for awhile.

Anything occur that may lead anyone to have a clue as to where the rest of the land is?

I like the concept of posing questions for training purpose. My one question now is what do we think about London? It has the wonder, but what does it mean to us in this location?

We need two more towns on the mainland, but how many in England? Where will we get the settlers?

Sorry I was not organized enough to get all the report done with fewer post. Anyway I wanted to remind the next player that the Ottoman horse is still sitting out there.

I am making a road to it so we can reach it with a sword and attack if need be. I think it is probably not wise to have so many workers way out there with much to be done in better places and that was my fault.

We have a mine being worked in Seville and it does not have a road, so we are losing 1 gold every turn. I elected to road the forest by Valladoild so we can traverse it as the chop is useless right now.

A look at the mainland and the end of the barbs.

A peek at the island of England.

Another question for Chukchi. Do you know why I knew an uprising had occurred or was about to happen?

question for Chunkchi.
Chukchi! :p

Another question for Chunkchi. Do you know why I knew an uprising had occurred or was about to happen?I don't know.

Chukchi...there have been a lot of other questions that have been asked. Why don't you try and answer some of Birdjag, vmxa's and my questions. It's a good exercise. Try to answer the best you can even if it's a wild guess. There are no stupid answers. Believe me, I've asked a million and no one has ever given me a hard time because of it.

I'm sorry.

There's no reason be sorry. It's ok if you don't know the answers but some are easy. For instance, how should we win? Would you like to shoot a spaceship?

I don't know, I never won before.

Well I'll bet you're gonna win this time. So how do you want to win? By domination, conquest, UN or spaceship?

I don't know.

Chukchi Husky, sorry about the spelling. Anyway I am sure the rest know, so I will give you the reason I knew about the uprising. An uprising will occur when two civs enter a new age and there is a place for the barbs to spawn.

By looking at the techs that the others knew and we did not (Code Of Law) and those we knew and they also knew (for two civs that was all of the AA techs) they could only be missing currency.

The other unknown techs are optional for that age and hence are not required to go to the next age. That told me that they were either in the new age or were soon to be there.

You can also tell by the clothes they wear. We did not have contact with 4 other civs, that could be ahead of us for all I knew. So it was plain to see that barbs either already had popped up or would very soon.

I no sooner saw that and boom next turn we got them. So at least two civs are in the middle ages. The best way to prevent that is to not have any land in the fog.

This is what I meant when I said I would normally have some scouts out to stop an uprising, if I coudl not get the land filled. A properly stationed galley or two would have stopped the spawning.

It cost us as the swords needed to surpress them could have been eliminated Enlgand. It also got me to build a spear that we do not really want.

BTW way optional techs are denoted by the circle with a line across it on the tech in the research screen. Look at Monarchy and Republic for examples.

Thanks vmxa, I got a lot of information from you in this thread!

Glad to hear it. Sometimes a lot of effort is put into some threads to try to impart some info and it fails, so it is great to hear something was of value.

A few things about mm'ing...
vmxa mentioned working hills. Does everyone understand why developing hills are not a big benefit at this point in the game?


This is one that is ignored by many new players. Another aspect is the one I wanted to point out in the town of PunkBass (I think that was the name).

I presume Whomp intended this issue to mainly be addressed by Husky. I wonder if it would to keep questions intented for training from being lost, if Husky could make a repsonse.

I don't know or something is enough to let others reply. Else some of the ealry ones will be forgotten and nothing learned.

Does everyone understand why developing hills are not a big benefit at this point in the game?
Currency is a very valuable tech. What are our plans for this? What should we research next?I don't know.
What about pop rushing foreigners? Is that a worthwhile thing to do?I don't know.

You could give at least a guess or random answer for the win type.
It's not so important to give the right answer, say what you think it's good, or whatever comes first to your mind.
It's not so hard to give such a simple answer. Why don't you try?

Well I'll bet you're gonna win this time. So how do you want to win? By domination, conquest, UN or spaceship?
@CH

1. Winning by Domination happens when you control something like 60% of all the land.
2. Winning by conquest happens when you eliminate all the AI civs
3. Winning by space race happens when you are first to launch the rocket to Alpha Centauri.

Now, CH pick the way you would like to win. which way doesn't matter, but if we choose one it will help us make other decisions. Your task for the next time you are posting is to pick one of those three ways and post your choice. There is no best way or worst way. :)

1. Winning by Domination happens when you control something like 60% of all the land.

You need 66% of the world's land and 66% of the world's population.

~lurking for the Comedy Factor~

I have to go to Texas on business Thursday through Saturday. Will someone please take my turns? Thanks.

Birdjaguar, you forgot:
Diplomatic win happens when the UN is build and you are chosen as a leader.
Histograph win (not something to wish) happens when nobody wins by any of the above means, and the player with biggest score is declared winner.

I just realized that the imports should be fine as long as no one can block the coast on the contient of Palma.

That means the coast needs to be kept from other civs, so you should claim the land. Right now one town sits on the path, but has no culture. For import purposes, I think they would have be at war to block, but I am not positive.

I know that any barb galley would be a blockade, but those should be easy to handle. We have the choke at the top, so no other civs ships can get into the area, if we don't let them.

Birdjaguar, you forgot:
Diplomatic win happens when the UN is build and you are chosen as a leader.
Histograph win (not something to wish) happens when nobody wins by any of the above means, and the player with biggest score is declared winner.

Don't forget the culture win. 20,000 culture in a single city or a certain amount depending on map-size. IIRC, 60,000 on a tiny map, 80,000 on a small map, 100,000 on a standard, 130,000 on large and 160,000 on huge.

My pc still isn't loading windows...:sad: I hope to get some answers today but I could ask Scout to take my turns if you guys are ok with that.

Chukchi...let's win this thing!
Consider Birdjag's three options. Which one sounds best?

Don't forget the culture win. 20,000 culture in a single city or a certain amount depending on map-size. IIRC, 60,000 on a tiny map, 80,000 on a small map, 100,000 on a standard, 130,000 on large and 160,000 on huge.

Also it has to be twice that of the next best culture. IOW on a std map 100K is not enough is someone else has more than 50K. I never concern myself with culture wins, but I do worry about culture losses.

Deity and Sid civs can double you with no problem.

Whomp what are the symptoms? Do you get a POST (Power on Self Test) fine? Do you get to the point where you see the memory check?

Have you tried MSCONFIG and enable the Diagnostic startup?

It sends me back to the IBM recovery page I loaded after I loaded the recovery cd's. If that makes sense. I plan to call IBM in a few minutes to see if they can work with me...

I suspect that the recovery disk is predicated on you having either the OS installed or a recovery folder on the HD.

Since this is a new disk and presuming it was the boot drive, those condition are probably not met. The install disk is need in that case and you need to install XP.

With a new HD, the install will be upset and will require (iirc) a code to work, that you can get from Windows manual or on a sticker on the PC. You need to get a new code, when you have installed more than twice. Yeah I have done that as well. The new code is good for few more times (2 or 3 iirc).

It is handy to have gotten a CD with the service pack to spare the sometimes lengthy time in trying to DL and apply SP's.

If you have gotten the system from a vendor, be it IBM or DELL or whatever, they may offer free support.

Anyway if you can read from the disk, then you got past the POST. That means you have a motherboard, CPU, memory and video. That does not mean you have an OS and of course no OS means no apps.

Do you have an old boot disk, either CD or floppy to test? I keep one all the time. It is a good way to prove that it is not hardware. Always create a boot disk that can support CD's.

This way you format the HD if needed or copy in something from a cab file to replace a lost file in OS. I have had to do that in Win95/98/ME and XP. I also keep an old video card in case I need to prove it is not video. I will also swap monitors.

Hope you get what you need. One other thing you may want to consider is getting one of those standalone HD's. I have a 200GB and copy my HD to it for emergencies.

You can often find them here with a big refund, so you pay less than 60 buck. That is cheap insurance.

Thanks vmxa.
I've got a call into my IT guy who installed a lot of the system originally so I'm waiting for him to call back so I'm hoping he'll shed some light on the situation.

@Whomp: I can play a set if the team can wait a day.

@Chukchi: I like the new avatar. Do you have several that you rotate?

That would be great Scout.

I want to strangle the IT guy in my office since he has the disks I need and didn't return my email and said he'd call me right back. Fist in...nvm.

Hopefully tomorrow..

@Chukchi: I like the new avatar. Do you have several that you rotate?I have thousands of wolf pictures.

All is well with my pc. I hope to load civ3 tonight. It turns out I didn't unpack any of the files when I did the recovery disks and simply had to take it that one extra step. Idiot... :blush: :D

All is well that ends well, so they claim.

Whomp's getting his problem straightened out...and now I'm having issues. The machine I use in The Other City won't load the game for some reason...(probably a game my friend's kid loaded this afternoon has a driver hosed up...because I played Civ last night on this machine...)

Hopefully I'll have it straightened out in a little while... but I need to get to bed soon.

If you guys want me to play I can play it tomorrow night when I'm home... otherwise I'll have to play a different lurker set. I apologize for the delay.

Here's the deal Scout. I will play the save but it would help me enormously if you'd shadow the same turns (if you can of course). I think it would help Chukchi as well to understand how each of us came to the decisions we made.

Pre-turn: Wake up some galleys, units and a settler. Juggle them around so I can get more units over to London. Upgrade a couple veteran warriors in Seville and outfit them with swords. The boat will pick them up next turn. Check the cities and notice a few unhappy Brits. Turn them into scientists to see if I can get currency down to 1 turn instead of 2. Science up from 50% to 90% does the trick! :D

IT currency comes in and set to CoL.
130 BC Promote a sword to elite and get 25g taking a barb camp. Structure this deal with Osman...

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/2715/ottos17js.jpg

This sends us to the MA's but we still need a government and no one has one. Ottos have monotheism for their free tech so I set to republic at 90% due in 11. A English galley is reportedly seen near London so I drop off the swords on board two tiles from London.

IT English galley hightails away and towards Canterbury. Chukchi finishes a settler and starts a market, Seville finishes a much needed 'duct and starts a market as well and Bird Jag gets its harbor and starts a cat. Cats will be necessary in our coming battles since they really help reduce the defenses of a city. Unfortunately, as you will see, I wish we had more.
110 BC London's population drops from 7 to 5. The reason this happened is there's a shiny new veteran spear where a regular spear used to be. This means they rushed 2 pop to get there spear which is good because the cities defenses will drop but adding the spear will make things a little tougher. Some of our forces are now at London's gates. Upgrade two more swords which will jump on some boats. The galley I sent east towards the NW island is now crossing a little sea lane to try and meet some new friends. The seafaring trait gives us a slightly better opportunity to not sink so we'll cross our fingers

IT English archer runs AWOL out of Canterbury when he sees units at the city gates. Good for our swords because he could've bombarded us. Dog Town finishes a harbor and starts a worker. Cordoba finishes a worker and I can't remember what I started. Our galley survives the rough seas.

90 BC
Siege at London --Spanish forces attack London and lose 2 swords but take out 1 spear. Two remain but 7 Spanish swords are at the gates of London.
Siege at Canterbury -- Spanish forces attack Canterbury (on a hill so extra defense) and again without arty support lose 2 swords but take out 1 spear. 3 swords are at Canterbury's doorstep.
Our galley attempts to find land by crossing ocean. It's deep water and quite treacherous. Let's hope our little galley can make it through.

IT Our galley lucks out and the ocean swells don't engulf it and we survive!!
70 BC Land ho! We meet Cleo but she won't trade her royal status for our literature...the AI tends to hold tight on techs that lead to a government but this is not the government we want.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Cleo3.JPG

London's bridges will fall. Lose 3 swords right off the bat but the damage to the spears in London is irrepairable. The next 3 swords take the spears with a finishing flurry from an elite and....

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1197/pyramids25xd.jpg

Our british colonies all have granaries! :D
At Canterbury things don't go as well with 2 swords lost and 1 spear killed. There's not enough force to finish off the English this turn.

IT AWOL archer boy hits our sword redlines him but loses. Phew. I shouldn't have left him in harm's way without terrain.
50 BC Take the spear at Canterbury but they've rushed another so we'll have to wait.

IT Dog Town gets a worker and starts a cat. Japanese finish MoM so the Ottomans switch around all their wonder builds. ToA, Great Wall and Great Lighthouse all move. These guys will need to be knocked down a notch or two.
30 BC Mircy Water established between London and Canterbury. Finish our continent by establishing Frozen Tundra...because it is.

IT Bird Jag finishes a cat and starts a 'duct
10 BC Start by rushing 1 pop to get the temple in Hastings. I really like vmxa's idea of dumping the temples once the borders have expanded. I'm not sure we want to carry the cost of temples long term.
All is ready at Canterbury. Vet sword loses to the reg. spear but our elite finishes the job and...

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/4881/fledglingenglish48ow.jpg

Then our galley that was headed north across the eastern continent finds this guy....once again we are up lit and he won't trade monarchy.

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/8748/iroquois51rz.jpg

IT How nice...a Japanese warrior is spotted on our western continent pennisula. Puerto de Lobos gets a 'duct and starts a market, Hastings finishes the temple and starts a harbor.
10 AD Meet the Japanese...once again they have nothing to offer but Monarchy. He must've just traded it with the Ottos because they have it now.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4447/japan63fr.jpg

IT zzzip
30 AD through 50 AD Toledo finishes a sword and starts one, Logrono finishes a harbor and starts a cat. Rushed a citizen in a couple cities for temples that are due in 70 AD. Everyone has monarchy.

SummaryOne thing that is strange is London is size 4 but still has 3 resisting citizens. I sent a sword over to quell the resistors. I would pop rush the temple when we have a chance so we can get the horses inside their borders.
Chukchi the way this works is you can rush 1 pop for 20 shields once the population is no longer resisting. Let us know if you need help with this.
We will have republic next turn. We can likely trade it around since the Ottos are already there. The Egyptians, Japanese and Iroquios are all in monarchy. Vikings are still in despot and we haven't met the Mongols. There are now "2 techs for 1" opportunities since we are the only ones who know both continents so keep this mind.
Chukchi do you know how this works?
We have 4 galleys with 7 swords and a cat headed north.
Will we go for the Vikings, Ottos or stay peaceful? What victory will we attempt?
Once markets finish in Chukchi and Seville we should revolt to republic. Our mainland is reasonably well developed except for some hills that need roading and mines.
Chukchi do you understand why these two markets should be finished before changing governments?
Do you understand the advantages of republic?

Our empire..notice the 3 galley east of Palma and another is just west of Palma with 7 swords and a cat.
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2081/empire0rr.jpg
Our new English cities..
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/9273/ourcontinent22jw.jpg
The eastern continent..
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/5194/continent36mv.jpg

looking good- pity you didnt start on the main land mass. Longterm palace jump to nearby larger continent assuming theres a large rival continent to the east?

looking good- pity you didnt start on the main land mass. Longterm palace jump to nearby larger continent assuming theres a large rival continent to the east?
Hmm...could be possible depending on our victory choice.
We have the Colossus built in the capital so it would probably happen if we went for a space victory.

@Whomp: Nice turns! Sorry I didn't get to play that last set... I would have liked to follow vmxa.

@Chukchi: Whomp is asking you questions to try to help you learn the game. Send me a PM if you want any pointers along the way...

...but now I'd like to ask you a different question: How do wolves hunt?

:goodjob: Very nicely done, Whomp!

Chukchi do you know how this works?No.
Chukchi do you understand why these two markets should be finished before changing governments?No.
Do you understand the advantages of republic?No.
...but now I'd like to ask you a different question: How do wolves hunt?They hunt small animals like rabbits or if they're a larger herd animal like deer or a bison they prey on the weak. They try to make the herd stampede to make it easier to isolate the smaller, weaker ones and prey on them. About 90% of the time a hunt is unsuccessful. They can also eat carrion and berries. When they eat it's up to about a quarter of their body weight. They only need about a kilogramme a day to live, but they may not eat again for a long time.

They hunt small animals like rabbits or if they're a larger herd animal like deer or a bison they prey on the weak. They try to make the herd stampede to make it easier to isolate the smaller, weaker ones and prey on them. About 90% of the time a hunt is unsuccessful. They can also eat carrion and berries. When they eat it's up to about a quarter of their body weight. They only need about a kilogramme a day to live, but they may not eat again for a long time.So when hunting, they pick prey they know they can take...

...and when hunting a herd, they hunt together as a pack.

Now let's say the wolfpack is forced to fight something strong... like a bear. How might they fight?

Now let's say the wolfpack is forced to fight something strong... like a bear. How might they fight?They let the bear have what it wants. When wolves eat, they have to eat as much and as fast as they can because of bears.

Whomp, I missed the reasoning for the three harbors going on in the English isles, are they prebuilds for something? Do we need them? Those sites have lots of green tiles, so I am not sure we need the extra food there at this time.

Was the settler in Nottingham used on Mircy? If not we could drop a town on the coast between Nott and London and get the horses now (after roads).

When the road to Nott is done, we will see if wee get the lux and if we do then, we need to keep the coastal path cleared till Astro. I can't see if we even need the harbor at Nott as London has one and it may be connected to the lux as well.

If that is so, then we may not even need to keep the harbor in Nott, hard to tell from pics.

They let the bear have what it wants.Try again, Lone Wolf, and put a little claws 'n teeth in the answer ;)

As for republic, it gives you an extra gold coin for every tile that made one already. Moreover, it negates the despotic toll of 1 *whichever* whenever there were 3 or more produced on a tile. It makes a huuuge increase in commerce, production and growth all in all.

The markets should be finished before switching though because if you produce twice as much gold (or almost!), and multiply the extra by 1.5 you'll be able to run 3x the economy you had. However, armies cost more to support so you might get to need the gold.

2 for 1 tech deals are when you use one tech you have to buy another, and with the 2 techs you now get, you buy a 3rd one surplus. For this, you need to find a civ that misses 2 techs (say Monarchy+Curency) but has an extra (like literature), 1 of which you have (Curr) and 1 of which an AI has (Monarchy). Then you buy Monarchy with Currency and with the 2 of them, you buy literature. This means you bought Monarchy and literature for just currency.

Actually you're correct vmxa. The harbors should be changed since I didn't have anything in particular I was building. Barracks or workers would make more sense.

We do have a harbor on that continent but the seas won't allow it to be used on the main continent.

The settler was used for Mircy Waters so another settler in the middle would make sense.

Okay Chuckchi - you know a lot more about wolves than I do. The closest thing I've ever seen to a wolf is a coyote. Sly little buggers... but not even close to a wolf... They let the bear have what it wants. When wolves eat, they have to eat as much and as fast as they can because of bears.These wolve can't let the bear have what it wants. This forest is not big enough for the bear and the wolfpack.

Chukchi - I'm trying to draw an analogy between the wolves and the game you're in. Whomp had some trouble fighting the English because he did not have any catapults.

Imagine organizing your forces into "wolfpacks". Some of the wolves weaken the enemy (catapults bombarding the enemy defenders) ... some of the wolves defend the pack (spearmen, or swordsmen...which defend as well as spears) and other wolves attack the enemy (swordsmen attack defenders that were weakened by other wolves.

Do you see how such "wolfpacks" in the game might form an effective fighting force in Civ3?

Imagine organizing your forces into "wolfpacks". Some of the wolves weaken the enemy (catapults bombarding the enemy defenders) ... some of the wolves defend the pack (spearmen, or swordsmen...which defend as well as spears) and other wolves attack the enemy (swordsmen attack defenders that were weakened by other wolves.

Do you see how such "wolfpacks" in the game might form an effective fighting force in Civ3?I dom't know. So it would be three units instead of one?

We do have a harbor on that continent but the seas won't allow it to be used on the main continent.



I am hoping that we can get import via the harbor around the other contient. There is a contigious path from England to Palma to us via coastal tiles as long as the town on the point does not expand.

I forget the name and the civ, but if we can get a town or two next to Palma that should do the trick. We may even be able to use the path as long as we are not at war and do not let any barbs park along the way.

In any event we probably need to secure that land.

BTW I was looking at the old dotmap, we probably need a new one. Anyway I would not put any towns down on those two tiny islands near us. They will add nothing, but corruption to some other towns.

The AI can be kept off of them till our culture covers them. I rarely build on tiny islands as I do not want the corruption nor to defend them or build anything in them.

I may drop of a unit or two to prevent anyone else from using them. At higher levels you will soon know if they actually have resources as the AI will be heading for them, before it should. A tipoff that oil or Al is going to show up one day.

The placement of the towns in our tundra looks like it will be right on the trees, so if we can get them chopped first, that is a bonus 10 shields towards something in some town.

"Originally Posted by Whomp
Does everyone understand why developing hills are not a big benefit at this point in the game?"

" CH - I don't know."

The main thing to consider is the number of worker turns to do things and to get to and from the tile. In the early game you have few workers and lots of roads needing to be built. Other improvements as well.

So you want to get the most for your manpower. Moving to an unroaded tile ends the turn for a worker. Also ends it crossing a river prior to engineering.

Some tiles use all the movement anyway, so you want to consider this. Worker task such as roads take longer on a hill so if it 4 turns to road a plains, it could be 6 to do a road on a hill.

If it is 8 for mine on a hill and 6 for road, that is 14 turns. What do I get for my 14 turns (I am not saying it is 14, as that depends on your traits)?

Well a road and a mine, but what does that mean? It means 1f2s1c, if the tile is in fact worked by a citizen. Well we could have done 3 roads in that time.

Those tiles could have yielded more, but maybe they would not be worked either. At the least, we now can traverse those tiles at 1/3 movement. This is good for defense and transfers.

I look at the town and see what makes sense. If I need to road that hill to allow travel, that is a consideration. If that hill has a resource I need now, that is a consideration, same for a lux.

If it did have a bonus, then it is more valuable than 1F1S1c (if a road and no mine). Maybe it is a case of I have a worker on a tile next to the hill and it has nothing better to do at this time and I want to send it in the direction of the hill anyway.

So it is not always wrong to road a hill, but the earlier it is in the game, the more likely it is to be less than an optimal choice.

This is why I sent the worker to the hill in the far eastern end. It had little else it could do usefully at that time, where it was. Not mention barb horses were about so I had to take care. The opposite was the case of the one in PunkBass. That tile was not going to have anyone work the mine, if it was built and there was lots left nearby to do.

Once markets finish in Chukchi and Seville we should revolt to republic. Our mainland is reasonably well developed except for some hills that need roading and mines.
Chukchi do you understand why these two markets should be finished before changing governments?


"The markets should be finished before switching though because if you produce twice as much gold (or almost!), and multiply the extra by 1.5 you'll be able to run 3x the economy you had. However, armies cost more to support so you might get to need the gold."

The gold will not mean anything to us while in anarchy, it is the smiley faces that we want before we revolt.

During the revolution the money that would have gone into luxuries will not apply. We will only get the benefits of real lux and happy structures. After those apply will be have to make up for unhappy pop with jokers.

Given that, I would suggest that we peek at the worker roading to Nottingham. If it is will be done in a turn or two, wait for it and see if we get the lux imported. If not, not much lost, but if it is, then we gain a second lux on both sides as our will come to them.

With anarchy in mind, do not sell off any temples until we come out of anarchy, unless it will have no impact on that town. IOW if it only has 1 pop, or two with one already a joker.

Changed the harbour productions to worker.

70 AD: Republic researched, selected Engineering as the next technology to research. Didn't revolt. Marketplace in Chukchi Huskyville completed, not sure what to build next, so I put it on library. York finishes temple, put production on settler. Coventry finished temple, put production on worker. Asturias finishes temple, put production on barracks. Moved the worker that finished building a road on tundra to a hill near Toledo. What do I do with tundra and mountain tiles?? Don't know what to do with the swordsman so I fortified them in the cities. Don't know what to do with the filled gallies either. Traded Republic to Cleopatra for Monarchy and 11 gold, the other civilisations were only going to give Monarchy for Republic.

90 AD: Seville finishes marketplace, put it's production on library. The cultrual influence of Hastings increases. Began revolution. Ragnar wants currency, and I gave it to him.

110 AD: Civil disorder in Chukchi Huskyville, Puerto de Lobos, Seville, Punkbass Canal and Palma. The Iroquois are building the Art of War.

130 AD: Revolution ended, and in Republic.

150 AD: Seville, Punkbass Canal and Palma still in civil disorder. Valladolid finishes harbour, put production on barracks. Cordoba finishes worker, put production on worker. Trondheim finishes the Great Lighthouse, and the Vikings are building the Great Library. Salamanca builds the Great Wall. The Ottomans are building the Hanging Gardens. Increased luxuaries to 20% and decreased science to 30%.

170 AD: Order restored in Seville and Punkbass Canal. Dog Town builds barracks, and put production on Library. Palma still in civil disorder. The Vikings are building the Hanging Gardens. Increased luxuaries to 30% and decreased science to 20%. Found an iron resource on a peninsula near Iroquois territory.

190 AD: Toledo builds swordsman, put production on library. Order restored in Palma and Chukchi Huskyville had a celebration.

210 AD: Mircy Waters builds worker, put production on barracks. The Iroquois are building the Statue of Zeus.

230 AD: Chukchi Huskyville builds library, put production on harbour. Canterbury cannot build worker, so I changed production to barracks.

250 AD: Hastings builds worker, put production on barracks. Logrono builds catapult, put production on barracks. Teruel builds harbour, put production on barracks.

@Chukchi: I think I see some things in your log that tell me a couple of ways we might be able to help you improve your game. Two questions:
Do you know how to micromanage cities?
Would you like some help dealing with civil disorder/rioting?

Do you know how to micromanage cities?I don't know.
Would you like some help dealing with civil disorder/rioting?
Yes

Chukchi Husky
"Changed the harbour productions to worker."

good move

"70 AD:
York finishes temple, put production on settler."

What is the size of the town at that time and what is its growth? If this town will not be size 3 before the settler can finish, then it is going waste shields.

This is because you will not get the settler until you have 3 pop in the town. So it will sit wasting shields while it grows to 3. So if you see it is size 1 and will get to size 3 in 20 turns and will make 30 shields in 15 turns, don't start a settler.

"Asturias finishes temple, put production on barracks."

Not sure on this as I cannot recall that town and if it has any potential to make troops any time soon. Sometimes it is better use weak places for cats or even nothing.

"Moved the worker that finished building a road on tundra to a hill near Toledo. What do I do with tundra and mountain tiles??"

That is very dependant on so many things. We will need roads on all tiles on the mainland and either mines or forest on the tundra (after engeneering). We may even want to plant and chop in a few tiles.

"Don't know what to do with the filled gallies either."

That is the turn players fault. We need to make a summary of intent for things that will need action.

"Traded Republic to Cleopatra for Monarchy and 11 gold, the other civilisations were only going to give Monarchy for Republic."

Ok, 11 gold is not worth it, so just do not trade this if they have nothing. They will be loathed to trade Monarcy, until the HG is built. Tech has a beaker cost, which is really gold. So if Rep is 400 beakers, it cost us 400 gold.
The cost is map and difficulty based for the most part.

Okay Chukchi, here are a few pointers on empire management. I took the previous save and played forward 2 turns, so these should be similar to the turns you just played.

First, it is really helpful to use a utility program that will alert you to certain things in the game. Personally, I use an older version of Dianthus' MapStat. This screenshot is taken from the second turn. The trading situation has changed, as we have discovered Republic. The happiness warning is from London, which is still resisting.

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/4542/husky01mapstatscreenshot2km.jpg

Perhaps one of your teammates would be good enough to help you get a good utility and set it up.

The next turn I get a warning of unhappiness at Seville, so I zoom to the city. Here you will see another modification that helps with empire management - the "smileys" next to the citizen icons. (I forgot where I got these... so @Team: If Chukchi wants them...hopefully one of you use them and can tell him where to get them...)

As you can see from the screenshot, I'm about to take a citizen off the wine tile near Dog Town and turn it into a specialist.

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/6609/husky01sevillemm0re.jpg

Here I've converted the citizen into an entertainer (or "clown").

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/8637/husky01mmsevilleclown1xg.jpg

By clicking on the entertainer icon, we can change it to a tax collector or scientist, and inspect the results.

This is what Seville looks like with a Tax Collector:

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/926/husky01mmseviletax6mp.jpg

...and here is what it looks like with a Scientist.

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/5251/husky01mmsevillescience8ah.jpg

All of this is prior to the revolution. I played another turn to get into anarchy, to show you something else. Here's a shot of my F1 (Domestic Advisor) screen. Pay no attention to the advisors' faces... mine are... different than most.

Anyway, a trick here is that you can sort your cities according to the type of management you're doing. You can sort by production if you click on the shields icon, or you can sort by population if you need to do a happiness check. Since the happiness problems will be the worst in the larger towns, this helps us find the trouble spots quickly.

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/250/husky01scoutsf19uv.jpg

Here is a technique for solving happiness problems in towns that don't have surplus food. You can use these micromanaging techniques to move citizens to different tiles. This is Punkbass Canal before micromanaging:

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/1238/husky01punkbassbeforemm0tb.jpg

...and here it is after micromanaging:

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/7359/husky01punkbassaftermm5ep.jpg

@Chukchi: Does this help? Please ask any questions you may have.

What is the size of the town at that time and what is its growth?The town is a size 3, I don't know about growth.
Ok, 11 gold is not worth it, so just do not trade this if they have nothing. They will be loathed to trade Monarcy, until the HG is built. Tech has a beaker cost, which is really gold. So if Rep is 400 beakers, it cost us 400 gold.
The cost is map and difficulty based for the most part.I'm sorry.

Chukchi Husky. please note this are just FYI and may only reflect my style not everyones. As such they could be wrong.

"90 AD: The cultrual influence of Hastings increases. Began revolution. Ragnar wants currency, and I gave it to him."

Remember it was mentioned that we may want to sell of the temples after they expand the borders and come out of anarchy.

Now the big thing. We do not give anything for a demand and we would love to see them declare on use and give us war happiness. We sure do not want currency being sold by them and not us.

It cost 426 beakers and is an important tech that brings markets. Those will help the AI too much and I do not even trade all the time. It is often the last tech they need to get to the next age.

"110 AD: Civil disorder in Chukchi Huskyville, Puerto de Lobos, Seville, Punkbass Canal and Palma. The Iroquois are building the Art of War."

Ok we screwed up on this and it is not your fault. I should have taken the time to mention that after you revolt, you need to visit all towns to correct for unhappiness. I sort of alluded to it, but I needed to state it emphatically.

"130 AD: Revolution ended, and in Republic."

After coming out of anarchy, you need to also visit all towns to put some of the jokers back to work.

@Chukchi: Don't apologize for making a mistake... you're here to get better at the game, and making mistakes is part of the learning process. Your teammates are just trying to help you learn and get better. Just keep trying, that's all we can ask. I hope you caught my empire management post above...and I hope it helps.

@Team: One thing I noticed when I shadowed 2 of Chukchi's turns... you guys haven't built any embassies with anybody. Is there a reason for this?

I guess I messed it up.

Chukchi Husky
"The town is a size 3, I don't know about growth."

sounds good then. The growth can be see in the city view. It will show +2 food or whatever it is getting. Then if it has a granary and all English towns will, then the growth is twice the speed.

You see the food box and it shows how much food is needed to grow. With a granary the box is 1/2 full all the time. So count teh empty boxes and divide by the + food number.

"I'm sorry."

No need, it is a learning game, so now you can evaluate trades better. You can also go ahead and hold you turnset any time and ask for input, if you are not sure and you feel it is a big issue.

What to do with a worker is not a big issue, but giving a tech for demands can be.

Anyway I don't know anyone that does not mess up in a game and especially an SG. You are not playing it all the way through and can forget what is going on when you pick it up. So things are over looked by the best players.

If you doubt it read some of the threads. You name the good player and I will find you many times when they forogt this or that. No one is perfect.

[QUOTE=scoutsout
@Team: One thing I noticed when I shadowed 2 of Chukchi's turns... you guys haven't built any embassies with anybody. Is there a reason for this?[/QUOTE]

Now is as good as a time to start squeezing them in as the cash allows.


BTW CH you may want to consider weither you need a barracks in every town as this is not an AW game and is only at Monarch. Barracks cost shields and you pay maint on them, so having 20, when 5 or so is enough will hurt a bit.

Some of those towns will not be making units, so save a bit.

I guess I messed it up.Don't worry about it Chukchi, it's nothing that can't be fixed or overcome. Between revolting to a new government and the tech situation, that was a tough round for a new player. Tech trading is one of the tougher parts of this game. You'll get better at it.

They are PopHeads and can be found in the creation forum. I love them as I play without the tools most of the time.

I loved Mapstat and CivAssist II. CAII will cause me save issue as it often fails due to CAII having the folder accessed.

BTW CH you may want to consider weither you need a barracks in every townI don't know what I was supposed to build.

I don't know what I was supposed to build.
I think what vmxa is saying is if a city can not produce a lot of shields then it a barracks may not make sense. For instance, if a city can only produce 2 shields then it would take 20 turns to finish a barracks (40 shields) and another 15 turns to finish a veteran swordsman (30 shields). That's 35 turns for 1 veteran swordsman. Instead of swordsman maybe that city is better off producing catapults. Catapults don't need a barracks so you could make 3 catapults (20 shields apiece) and be halfway through finishing a 4th by the time it would take to finish 1 vet swordsman. Do you see the math in that?

barracks (40 shields) + swordsman (30 shields) = 1 veteran swordsman (70 shields)
catapults (20 shields) x 3 = 3 catapults (60 shields)


BTW nice work on the turns CH. :clap: As Scout said those were really tough turns to manage. We are in good shape! Punkbass will be happy our new government is set up.

These are all helpful illustrations given to you from vmxa and Scout.

Since your turns were some of the hardest to think about maybe it might be good practice is to try some of the new techniques you've learned from vmxa and Scout's recommendations and have them evaluate what they taught separately from our game.

What do you think?

I don't know.

:hmm: You're smart CH. It's really up to you if want to use some of the new lessons learned but I'd bet you'd learn a lot if you work with them on trying some of their recommendations. vmxa and Scout are very patient and have helped a lot of players improve.

If you don't want to that's fine because the save is going to move to Punkbass either way. If it were me I'd take them up on the help and take it one turn at a time.

I'm back, where are we in the rotation?

:hmm: You're smart CH. It's really up to you if want to use some of the new lessons learned but I'd bet you'd learn a lot if you work with them on trying some of their recommendations. vmxa and Scout are very patient and have helped a lot of players improve.

If you don't want to that's fine because the save is going to move to Punkbass either way. If it were me I'd take them up on the help and take it one turn at a time.I should play the save again?

You could do that and post with a differnt name and then see how it compares with your first experience. That way it won't be confused with the original save.

Just rename it as say my_second_try and it will be obvious to all. It would be interesting to see if the Vikes actualy declare after you turn them down.

Look at the F3 screen to see how the advisor see us compared to the Vikes. They do not always declare when you refuse a demand.

You may even want to look at where they are in the map and who is near them. If it is someone other than the Ottoman, you may want to think about bribing them to join a war effort with your tech.

I tend not to do that at Monarch as I know I can roll over them, but it may be a way to keep two civs busy, while we decide who to hurt first.

Anyway you will then know what to do with those swords in the boats. :D

I did it again, but I saved it over the first one. The Vikings never made the demand.

Changed the harbour productions in Hastings and Mircy Waters to worker, the one in Canterbury to catapult (Is Canterbury supposed to be a scientist?). Built emabssies in Trondheim, Thebes, Salamanca, Kyoto and Istanbul.

70 AD: Republic researched, set Engineering as the next technology to discover. Didn't revolt. Chukchi Huskyville builds marketplace, and put the next build as library. York completes it's temple, the city will reach size three in three turns, and will complete a settler in thirty, so I put it on settler. Coventry and Asturias each build a temple, and put both of them on catapults. Moved the worker that completed a road to Frozen Tundra to another tundra tile to build another road. Moving the swordsman in Chukchi Huskyville and the one near Punkbass Canal to the nearest empty galley (What do we do with the warriors?), and moving the galley closer to them. Moving the empty galley to the mainland. Leaving the filled galleys alone for now. Moving the swordsman near Mircy waters to London and fortified it (Does it help with removing resistance?). Exploring the Iroquois coastline with a galley. Didn't trade Republic.

90 AD: Seville completes marketplace, and put it's next build on library. Hasting's cultural influence increases. Keeping the temple for the anarchy. Moved a swordsman onto that galley. Began the revolution.

110 AD: The Iroquois are building the Art of War. Chukchi Huskyville has five unhappy citizens, gave it two entertainers. Seville has six unhappy citizens, gave it two entertainers. Puerto de Lobos has three unhappy citizens, gave it one entertainer. Punkbass Canal has four unhappy citizens, gave it one entertainer. Palma has two unhappy citizens, gave it one entertainer. Moved the second swordsman into the galley, and moving the galley to the coast with the other filled galleys.

130 AD: Civil disorder ended everywhere, resistance ended in London and now out of anarchy and in Republic. Putting the entertainers back to work except in Seville and Palma (Palma now has zero growth). -11 net gain so I reduced science down to 40% for a net gain of +9.

150 AD: Valladolid builds harbour, and put it's next build on Swordsman. Cordoba builds a worker, and put it's next build on catapult. The Vikings are building the Great Library, completed the Great Lighthouse in Trondheim, the Iroquois completed the Great Wall in Salamanca, are building the Art of War, and the Ottomans are building the Hanging Gardens. Moved a galley into Puerto de Lobos for now. Moving the new worker to help build the road to Nottingham.

170 AD: Dog Town builds barracks, put it's next build on library.

190 AD: Toledo builds swordsman, and keeping it building swordsman. Cultural influence increase in York, Coventry and Asturias, and selling off their temples, including the one in Hastings. Made an entertainer in Coventry. Moving Toledo's new swordsman to Puerto de Lobos.

210 AD: Mircy Waters builds a worker, put it's next build on catapult. The Iroquois are building the Statue of Zeus.

230 AD: Chukchi Huskyville builds the library, put it's next build on harbour. Civil disorder in Coventry, made an entertainer. Increase luxuaries to 20% with a +1 net gain.

250 AD: Recieved contact from the Mongols, complaining about troops in their territory, and they declared war on Egypt. Hastings builds a worker, and put it's next build on catapult. Order restored in Coventry. Logrono builds a catapult, and keeping it's build on catapult. Teruel builds a harbour, and put it's next build on swordsman. Thebes completes the Temple of Artemis. The Iroquois are still building the Art of War. Karakorum completes the Hanging Gardens. The Japanese are building the Great Library. The Ottomans are building the Great Library. Moving Logrono's new catapult to Puerto de Lobos. Built an embassy in Karakorum.

Sounds like an improvement. Good work. Lets go with the replay.

Chukchi Husky
"I did it again, but I saved it over the first one. The Vikings never made the demand."

Sounds fine. Two things that control the outcome of a replayed turn 1) if the preserve random seed is selected (I did not check) 2) the order of events.

So if the Seed is preserved, that means you get the same rng for a given event, if it is reloaded and played again. Well is only true if the moves are done exactly as the first time.

So any change of sequence of say moving units or combat, could alter the outcome. This because the RNG is control by the Seed. So if it is a low number the first time, it will be for the retry.

If you have the same battle, you get the same rng and the same reults. If you do something, like fight with another unit and then figth with that original one, you no longer have rng number 1 for that battle, you have rng 2.

This means any change of doing things that use the rng, will change the outcome.

"Changed the harbour productions in Hastings and Mircy Waters to worker, the one in Canterbury to catapult (Is Canterbury supposed to be a scientist?). Built emabssies in Trondheim, Thebes, Salamanca, Kyoto and Istanbul."

I did not see the save, so I am not sure what the scientist is doing. If the town did not have enough happy faces, then someone created a specialist to try to make it balanced. This can be done with any specialist. Often you must use a joker (entertainer), but sometimes it is fine with a taxman or a scientist.

The tax or beakerhead are better if you can get away with them as they give us something. Which one to use (tax or sci) depends on what you are needing at the time. Tax is 2 gold, sci is 3 beakers. So you gan more from beakers, but if you cannot use the beakers, then gold is better.

The case for not being able to use beakers is if you either have research to zero or more cokplex: if the 3 beakers over time would not impact the time to research a tech. This is something for deep play. You must find the beaker cost for the tech and track how many you have accumulated and then divide the amount left by turns to see what shakes out.

CivAssist can do this for you in part. I once wrote an xls tool to do it.

Chukchi Husky
" Moving the swordsman in Chukchi Huskyville and the one near Punkbass Canal to the nearest empty galley (What do we do with the warriors?), and moving the galley closer to them. Moving the empty galley to the mainland. Leaving the filled galleys alone for now. Moving the swordsman near Mircy waters to London and fortified it (Does it help with removing resistance?). Exploring the Iroquois coastline with a galley. Didn't trade Republic."

Well warriors are tricky item. If they are vets, then we can upgrade them, if we have the cash to spare. If they are not vets, but are regulars, we may not want to upgraded them. It is not always yes or no. If I am going to be needing some extra punch now in the location of the regular sword, I may upgrade it anyway.

Yes MP's do help with resistance. They also can help with happiness, but it is not the case for us as we are now going to be in Republic. The civlipedia shows what governments can use MP's and if not.

On the ships loaded, we probably want to move them to some place to hurt someone. We are going to need to get the land by Palma and it will need to be defended. The question is do we start a war now or drop a few towns down first?

QUOTE]

One other point that could have been mentioned on the question of Embassies. In the main they are good as they make relations better. You must have one to spy and to steal.

So the only questions to me are is this an always war game or not? If it is, then embassies are not going to allowed (usually).

If it is not, then we know we want to build them at some point. That point is the other question. I may be tempted to get them as soon as I can, but the brake on that is the cost.

I do not want to spend all I have to get them right away as I may need some gold for something. I may also want to time the embassy to gain more useful information.

This is a nuiance that comes into play at times. One example is if I am going for a wonder and I want to wait till I plant the embassy to see how far along they are on it. This only works if the wonder is going up in their capitol.

I have used this to discover that I have no chance to built it and can go on to something else. Mostly in games I am monitoring in the General or Strategy forums. I have also used it to find that I need to shave off a turn or two to be first.

I see that we are getting the lux imported as I thought we could. We need to take Birka at the start of any war to keep that open.

We dropped the ball and I should have loaded the save before now to see this one. It was mentioned in passing about pop rushing the temple in London.

We cannot do that after we go into republic, so we missed the boat on pop rushing in England. Same for the settler. Now we need gold. This is the type of considerations you have to think about before making too many embassies.

I would like to rush one or the other and the temple is now the cheapest and will gain of the horses faster.

Note that Palma will need to get a harbor to get either lux or the horses. So please switch the cat to a harbor.

We are running -7 with 54 gold and need about 64 gold to rush the temple. So we can fix the minus right away.

We have not mentioned the FP as far as I know and it is an option now.

Valladolid has no barracks and is making a sword. Switch it to courthouse/market or lib.

Seville +5 food at size 8. Switch joker to taxman. A grassland tile is irrigated, so that can be mined at some point.

Huskyville needs to switch. It does not need a harbor as it has 12 tiles to use now and a temple will be usefull to keep it happy at size 12.

Logrono move pop to coast to gain food and 3 gold, switch cat to courthouse maybe? Need to lower corruption. could go with market, but need to net something.

Teruel pop to coast as it was not growing. Switch to lib as we need to pop borders to get that fish. That is why it was founded there.

Could use those workers there to chop and rush things. Note that those towns are not going to net much with out some help. Courts or an FP or something. We should send some workers back to the core as those cities will be the most useful and hence need to not wait for improvements.

Bird has workers doing mines on hills that it does not need right now. They could have chopped the trees and the aqua would be done already.

Note that is impotant to get to size 7 now to gain the extra unit support.

C_H if you feel like it and have the time, look at the towns with these ideas in mind and see if you see anything that looks like it makes sense. I have to be checked as I can be wrong or way off base as easily as not. The main thing is these are ideas to be examined to see if they have merit.

I found a few towns that could have citizens changed to gain gold and get us into a positive cash flow.

We may want to consider lowering the research as well. It will probably be required soon anyway.

We now are facing the fact that we cannot just make troops and workers will no concern about the unit cost. It is almost the same level as our research and corruption is almost twice the unit support.

Five more settlers could be used right now and with those comes the need for even more workers.

Very nice work Chukchi. You write very good logs too.
BTW I think you learned a few things from the first time versus the second time. :thumbsup: You did great and you're a quick learner!

In the future it might be cool to play the round and then try it again if you want to do it for practice.
Whomp
Chukchi Husky--Just went.
Punkbass2000-- up
Birdjaguar-- on deck
Mirc
<Lurker>

Built emabssies in Trondheim, Thebes, Salamanca, Kyoto and Istanbul.I suspect this had something to do with the fact that Ragnar didn't come demanding a tech the second go-round. (What do we do with the warriors?), and...That's the tough part about Republic. What you can't upgrade, you should generally disband. Check F3, and see if your military is costing you gold. If not, wait and upgrade. If the army is costing you gold... it may be worth moving the warrior to a city an disbanding it for a few shields...

You held off the riots...and ended resistance in London. :goodjob:

230 AD: Chukchi Huskyville builds the library, put it's next build on harbour. Civil disorder in Coventry, made an entertainer. Increase luxuaries to 20% with a +1 net gain.Don't overlook the value of the tax collector... I should have mentioned this in my micromanaging post. All you need to do is make the number of happy citizens equal the number of unhappy citizens. If you can hire a tax collector instead of a clown, you'll get a few more gold pieces in the treasury....

250 AD: Recieved contact from the Mongols,This is good. If I recall, the Monglols are the last remaining unknown civ in the game. ...and they declared war on Egypt.And you knew this, because you built those embassies. ;)
Thebes completes the Temple of Artemis. The Iroquois are still building the Art of War. Karakorum completes the Hanging Gardens. The Japanese are building the Great Library. The Ottomans are building the Great Library. This sounds like a "wonder cascade". It's what happens when one civ completes a wonder, and all of the other civs that were building that wonder are forced to build something else. In this case Egypt completed the Temple of Artemis, so the other civs started another available wonder.

In any event, it looks like you're getting better and learning Chukchi, and I (for one) am enjoying it. :thumbsup:

Chukchi Husky, I think your wolf avatar is just lovely. I admire wolves very much. ;)

I've been in your situation and needing help to learn how to play better. Both Whomp and Scoutsout have helped me a lot in succession games. It's ok to stop and save in the middle of a turnset to come to the board and ask questions. I do it all the time, and they are very helpful. Then I can continue playing my turns with new information.

If you ask questions before you finish all 10 turns, sometimes you can change things to make it better sooner. You're learning, and that's what's important.

Good luck!!! :)

Yes the warriors are a hard call. The problem is that swords are about to be very much less valuable. Many are going to be having pikes about now. Worse is that Japan will have one of the nasties UU's soon.

Not to menton the Vikes getting Zerks. They both need attention quickly and there will be no money to upgrade warriors. But if you disband a bunch of warriros now, you can probably expect demands.

Maybe that would be good in the case the Ragnar, get him to declare and use those swords. Since horses have not been available, no fast units for defending and no upgrades for knights either.

In any event the regular warriors and maybe the reg archer could be disbanded. Anything you do at this juncture is a close call.

BTW what do you think about tundra and trees? I sort of like to clear them of trees, unless we having need of them for slowing down attackers. The shields are nice and it is faster to road and rail mined tiles, than forested ones.

260AD: Told Osman to get out of dodge.

270AD: PdL completes Marketplace. Begins Library.
Seville completes Library. Begins Harbor.

290AD: PbC completes Aqueduct. Begins Harbor.
BjH completes Aqueduct. Begins Granary.

300AD: Seville completes Harbor. Begins Granary.
Nottingham completes Temple. Begins Courthouse.

310AD: Two Archers approach Palma.
FT completes Temple. Begins Harbor.

320AD: Engineering discovered. Research on Feudalism begun.
Viking Archers enter our territory. I demand they leave. Ragnar declares war. One Archer bombarded to 2/3, other decimated by Swordsman with no losses.

330AD: Damaged Archer retreats.

340AD: PbC completes Harbor. Begins Granary.

350AD: PdL completes Library. Begins Harbor.
Main strike force unloaded South of Trondheim.

Very nice PB!
Vikings must pay for their insurrection. How many were in the stack at the Viking capital?

Chukchi just so you're aware when the AI declares war on you the population actually becomes happier. It's called war happiness.

Whomp
Chukchi Husky
Punkbass2000
Birdjaguar--up
Mirc --On deck
<Lurker>

Chukchi just so you're aware when the AI declares war on you the population actually becomes happier. It's called war happiness.I always thought that all wars made the population unhappy.

Remember that the war means no more imported incense or horses. You have to take out those coastal towns now.

Just wondering if you really want a granary at this stage of the game, especially in a size 9?

You really need more troops to get Ragnar done quickly, not more granaries and harbors.

I see a lot of ugly spears in the capitol and more being made? You cannot attack anything with spears. Did anyone get any horses while they were available?

I always thought that all wars made the population unhappy.
Nope. When a country declares war on us like they did the population gets war happiness for a certain period of time. That's why it's a good idea to try and get the AI to declare war on you (like Punkbass did) instead of declaring on them.

The big thing right now is to make sure we have more winning battles than losing battles when fighting. The more units we lose the more unhappy the population will become. Using hills, rivers and mountains become very important because they give us extra defense if we are attacked. The catapults will help a lot too because they may make a veteran spearman into a 2/4 spearman.

These a few other things that make the population unhappy during war. Having units inside their borders too long, having their units on our land too long and probably the worst one is if one of our cities is razed.

What needs to be watched carefully each turn during war is the happy/unhappy faces in each city. If there's more unhappy than happy then Birdjaguar will need to either raise the luxury tax or convert a citizen to a specialist. In the high commerce/shield cities it's better to move the luxury tax because you want all citizens to keep working. In a small remote village that's very corrupt we might use a specialist (either a scientist or taxman is preferable) instead because what they're making isn't as important.

Interesting, huh?

Vikings must pay for their insurrection. How many were in the stack at the Viking capital?

Seven Swordsmen, IIRC. 4 Galleys were there, but I had forgot that I cannot unload the one Catapult onto Jungle. I don't know that I necessarily think we should go on the offensive. Just hang out in the Jungle and Mountains and things with occasional Pillaging forays. A war of attrition, unless someone decides to bring a bunch of other Swordsmen along.

You need to go on enough offense to clear those coastal areas. Either raze them or capture them. That is why I would have prefered they land in position to take those two towns out right away.

If we attacked first or they did, either way the trade path would be cut and needed to be restored quickly. Those units could have done that in one or two turns.

BTW C_H cats cannot land on mountains, unless there is a road.

C_H the act of declaring war, in this situation, means a loss of one lux on the mainland and one in England. So surely some towns will go into disorder if nothing is done.

What the something is depends on how big of a fix is required. It could be that a couple of specialist handles it, giving the bump from being attacked. It could be a boost in the slider is the better way. It depends on how many places need help and how much help they need.

Have the game. i will open it and see what questions I have before I start playing.

Ok I have some questions before I begin playing:

1. How do we compare in tech and what should we research after Feudalism (8 turns left)?
2. Should CHville stop building spearmen and switch to swords or go to buildings ala great Library?
3. Should our armies be shipped to fight the Vikings or stay home? ie Puerto de Lobos has forces that could go to war.
4. Which Viking city should be our primary target? Hareid or Birka? Other?

Q1. I think we're doing fine on techs. Trade, trade!
I would start a beeline towards cavs. Horizontal tech research tends to pay off the best and cavs are very important.
Q2. No spears. All swords. I would not build anything but swords, galleys and if needed workers/settlers. I think we'll need a settler soon.
Q3. I would focus the majority of the forces to the point of shortest distance. The AI tends to go there first and are very poor at making naval landings. I would keep shipping and taking the small cities until we get enough cats overseas to take down their big ones.
Q4 Hareid and Birka. Which one is west of Cordoba? I think you could take both with a combo of 2 cats and 4 swords for each.

I would agree with Whomp, except to add we need at least 3 settlers. One at home and two for the coast by Palma. They are not immediate needs though.

Thanks, on to victory!

I didn't miss my turn? :eek:
It's too late now, I will play and post a turn log tomorrow. I am just too tired right now. I slept three hours in the last 3 nights.

You're all good Mirc. Birdjag hasn't played yet. You're on deck.

With Whomp's wisdom oh so sage,
The vikings now I will engage;
To their land I take this fight;
And the results, I will post tonight.

US mountain time of course.